#but i think there's also a lot to dissect about this

[galaxymagitech]

Okay.

I think we are both trying to prevent fandom-wide misconceptions.

I think that reading your original post with no knowledge of canon will lead to a belief that it is absolutely canon in pre-crisis that Bruce made Jason dye his hair, whereas it's just a possible interpretation that Jason felt pressure to. I recognize that my post isn't a "gotcha" to you, but it was more a preventative measure against people assuming your post meant Bruce always wanted to Jason to be Robin or was the one who came up with the hair dyeing idea. I could dissect the wording that makes it seem that way (at least to me) but I really don't want to be rude. My goal was to prevent reblogpasta that created a fanon myth. Instead...I seem to have created reblogpasta in the opposite direction.

I agree with you that it's not coming out of absolutely nowhere and it's not just "baseless Morrison garbage." I never intended to imply that it was.

I wasn't aware my version was getting reblogged a bunch, but I am going to edit it to clarify that this is just a statement that this interpretation is contested/debatable, not that this interpretation is bad.

Now onto the actual debate:

I put a lot of emphasis on Pre-Crisis Jason choosing Robin because he had so many other options (post-crisis Jason...absolutely did not). He had so many costumes to choose from when he went to help Batman. And instead of just taking one of them, instead of even just taking the Robin costume...he also dyed his hair. He went above and beyond, and there was simply no reason that would've been necessary to prove himself.

After that, he was going to be Batman's partner and was already brainstorming names. He had his own costume. But he still jumped on the idea of Robin when Dick offered. After that he had second thoughts about personal identity, but Bruce appeared to misinterpret those--what he said, after all, was clearly missing the point. (Pre-crisis Bruce does show occasional signs of weaponized missing the point with Jason, the whole "oh, so you're saying..." type of thing. But nothing I've seen that seems this extended and sincere.) If Jason then misinterpreted what Bruce said as "wanting your own identity is bad", I'm not sure that can really be considered pressure from Bruce, because that wasn't what Bruce was saying. And in general, I think we might have different definitions of Bruce pressuring Jason.

"Or simply never encouraging Jason to stop or acknowledging his natural hair color."

Personally, I wouldn't consider this pressure.

I'm not trying to defend Bruce--I am, in general, not a Bruce defender. But I think, very specifically, that the hair dyeing is too many steps removed from the actual problem (Jason's isolation and loneliness and Bruce's role in that, Jason's desperation, etc.) to say that there was any pressure towards Jason specifically dying his hair.

I will say that if post-crisis Jason was to have non-black hair (as he did in Morrison's run), I absolutely believe Bruce would have told him to dye it, given how Jason was just unilaterally made Robin and wasn't really given the option to be a civilian. I'm saying that in pre-crisis, Jason went above and beyond to randomly dye his hair and chose Robin over a multitude of other options. And that, while it's possible he somehow felt pressure to specifically dye his hair--and a very valid reading of the comics--it's not a fact.

So, yeah, Morrison wasn't coming from nowhere, I think their decision to take that was pretty reasonable, although I'm not a fan of them making Jason's hair red instead of yellow, because that divorces it too much from pre crisis for me to accept. And I will edit my post to this effect, because I'm not arguing against the "Morrison/Jason wasn't just making random stuff up" part, I was arguing against the implication that this take is in any way definitive for pre crisis. I had a knee-jerk reaction, especially because the fact that Jason initially chose to dye his hair is not mentioned in the text of the original post, and probably phrased my "further context" too argumentatively.

To your tags: I don't think you sound mean/rude, I'm taking this as a very lively and interesting internet debate. If you'd prefer to stop arguing/discussing feel free to let me know.

I cannot stress enough that Bruce did make Jason dye his hair like that IS a thing it wasn't completely out of left field made up by Morrison. I love complaining about Morrison's Jason but that aspect is literally from precrisis as many details about that Jason are

No, there is not an explicit panel of Bruce going "well hey you have to have black hair to be my son, fuck you". But the whole thing is that Jason is not allowed to have his own hero identity and that the general public and villians arent supposed to know there's a new Robin, which, pretty heavily implies he's meant to look like Dick as Robin. If Jason isn't allowed to give the costume pants (or at least, made to feel like he can't change that aspect), then yeah, he's gonna have to keep up dying his hair too

[girlfan100]

Wanted to try analyzing Lyle in depth/just my general thoughts and opinions about him. all under cut 👇

Alright. I want to preface this by saying that I am not justifying anything unethical that Lyle has done by any means- moreso I am trying to figure out a reasoning as to why he is the way that he is. Nor am I trying to “woobify” him or whatever, I just think he’s genuinely an interesting character I’d like to dissect. Morally greyish. I also apologize if it seems I am grasping at straws at some points, hopefully I’ll be making good enough reasoning for my thoughts.

First off, I believe Lyle has Bipolar Mood Disorder. It seems he’s been suffering through a manic episode during the events of the game and even beforehand. He talks of a project he has been working on in his dark room, and while its clear these are just photographs of Sam (for the most part), Lyle could still consider this an actual project; likely something he’s obsessing over because of a drawn-out manic episode. Because he has an interest in photography, he likely reverts to similar activities during these episodes.

His chronic obsession with Sam could also explain this. It’s not uncommon for people with Bipolar Mood Disorder to become obsessed with another person, and y’know, being turned into a giant mechanical camera spider probably isn’t helping much. It’s clear he’s ashamed of his new form (based on his reaction when you look at him), and he knows Sam probably wouldn’t relish in his appearance either, which only worsens the obsession.

Obviously Lyle has a crush on Sam. I… don’t need to explain that. Lol. Clearly Lyle isn’t treating this crush the same as the average person would, though, and I believe this is because he literally doesn’t know how else to. Bipolar heavily influences on one’s relationships with other people, and assuming he’s not exactly an extroverted individual (anxiety meds? being a weird nerd?), he tends to be ‘creepy’ towards Sam with the photography and all. I’m lenient on calling him creepy because I don’t think he fully understands what he’s doing is bad, nor do I think being ‘creepy’ is necessarily intentional. It’s just a combination of disordered thinking, romantic obsession, and emotional irregularities.

I understand he stole Sam’s spare key. Again, Im not trying to justify it, it’s.. not good at all, but I don’t think there’s actually any proof he’s used it before? So I cant really speak on that topic too much. Maybe he took it in a frenzy and was too anxious to return it. I dunno 🤷‍♀️. Its a little too far even for him, I mean, he asks Sam for consent to kiss. Whatever you wish to believe, I suppose.

In general I think some therapy and mood stabilizers would help him plenty. My boy just needs some help regulating his emotions is all… thanks for listening to my rambling. I love him a lot!

[belowtheworldin80days]

feeling weird about americans flooding xiao hong shu because a lot of the viral posts that i've seen online have an undertone of asian fetishism to them mixed with treating chinese people like zoo animals doing a trick

[galactic-rhea]

I was thinking back of some of the concept art for Encanto I always loved and... Long rambling ahead.

YUP! I remain obssesed wiwth it, especially the first one, the black butterflies!! In many latinoamerican countries (including mine) black butterflies in a home are a bad omen, to the point there's people absolutely scared of them (I have met a few, personaly); so the incorporation to it not only gives such a creepy image, but is an awesome call back to the culture.

The one where is raining on Mirabel's side of the house is also a perfect example of Magical Realism; the author whose work was first referred to as magical realism (in literature) had a short story called The Rain, in the story, the rain represents love, it doesn't really have much to do with the story in Encanto or the concept art on itself, just something that I remembered.

In Hundred years of Solitude, it rains for four years and the rain starts eating away the Buendías's house and destroying their fortune, and the decline of the house is what start of the town's decline as they're linked to the family.

I always said that Encanto was like a super sanitized and family friendly version of Hundred years of Solitude, and honestly I can see that a lot in the concept art, much more easily than in the movie

And to me, the biggest expression of Magical Realism in the concept art, is this one:

the mundane mixing with the nonsensical and magic, but the being accepted as part of the natural world without further questioning. And here's more of this on other of the concept art:

Magical realism as a term started being referred to art styles that depict something that objetively normal, has an uncanny element and often somewhat satirical. However, as a genre in literature, it started in Latin America, inspired by surrealism.

Is not just magic, is magic within a mundane world and being accepted as part of their lives. Latinoamerican literature tends to be fatallistic and crude; and magical realism follows similar steps, because the fantasy element isn't taken as something grandiose and something capable of solving every problem; the contrary, it just becomes something that just happens, and life goes on, and this usually means tragedy and death as well.

The magic isn't the cause, nor the solution, not even helpful because these stories kept on being harsh and sometimes cruel, in a sense Magical Realism reminds me more of Gothic Horror than Fantasy. Thousands years of solitude has these magic, fantastic elements, but it keeps on being a tale of the cyclical misery of the Buendías, that doesn't end until their entire destruction along with Macondo.

The Buendías aren't even meant to be liked (as in, good people), because they're supposed to be a selfish self-obssesed, land owners and the elite group that ruins the lives of others and keep digging their own graves.

For another example, the story that i mentioned, The Rain not only has a social commentary, but it ends in a very bitter sweet note, with a couple finally seeing the rain after a drought, but losing the kid that magically rekindled their love for each other. A lot of latinoamerican literature ends with painfully bittersweet, if not outright hopeless endings (Chronicle of a Death Foretold literally tells you, just with the title, what you will get into. Is a very cruel story and it has zero closure, the original "Dead dove do not eat/I don't know what i was expecting". Another example, Dead Houses is...well, is a bit more hopeful, but the cruelty is there and right on the face.)

Neither of these things fit very well for a disney family friendly movie, but just the fact they dared to show us Pedro's death and it being the origin of Encanto is a good enough attempt.

And a lot of these concept art does give a very dark tone, visually. I can see the attempt at trying to mix the whimsical of usual disney movies and the crudeness of the genre it takes its inspiration.

Another little bits that make me think of Encanto and Hundred Years of Solicitude, is that something important in the novel's narrative, is that Macondo is kinda trapped in time, both because of how remote the town is, but also because of the magic element; the huge impact of the town when outsiders and new technology arrives sometimes is taken as another magic element (they see ice, and believe it must be magic). Encanto has a similar setting, the exact time is taking place is hard to determine and there's some anacronisms. And also, the soap opera that Bruno's rats are "playing" is literally a nod to two characters in TYS; Amaranta ��rsula and Aureliano.

In the final version of the movie, some of these vibes the concept art shows was lost, but at its core it retains the key elements of magical realism! However, sometimes I wonder what would have someone like Guillermo del Toro done with the basic plot of Encanto, I have the strong suspicion that we would have ended with something much, much closer to actual magical realism

Ending this with, idk, watch Encanto. Or even better, read some latinoamerican literature (besides Gabriel García Márquez, whom I have a beef with. Can I suggest Julio Córtazar, Pilar Romero, Isabel Allende, Liliana Bodoc, Angelica Gorodischer, Juan Rulfo, Miguel Otero Silva, and Horacio Quiroga?)

[kalinara]

I was thinking that a lot of what makes the O5 interesting, for readers and writers is more what's established AFTER the 60s issues rather than what came before...

I don't, per se, agree that the characters in the O5 were cyphers - I think they got their individual voices pretty early on, but I also think it's fair to say that only Scott really has a consistent emotional through-line. Jean gets some really interesting development once Xavier fakes his death, but not much before that. And everything interesting about Hank, Bobby and Warren pretty much came later.

I think that the point of interest really comes from Giant Sized X-Men and the Claremont issues after. Hank, Bobby and Warren get shunted off for a while to do their thing - but not before Bobby helpfully de-ages them all a little by expressing that he's not old enough to drink (the drinking age in America in 1975 was eighteen).

Scott's the one they keep outright. Which makes sense, because, again, most developed of the O5. And he also works very well as the sort of uptight, repressed, voice of authority that our cool, new, colorful and rebellious characters can bounce off of. At the same time, there's an element of uppity kid bossing around people older, more individually experienced and more worldly than he is.

Jean theoretically goes off to civilian life, but she never really LEAVES. And that makes sense too. She's Scott's romantic partner and works immediately as a contrasting best friend for Ororo. (And of course, becomes a complicating element in the Scott-Logan dynamic, even if the triangle isn't a thing yet.)

Scott and Jean together are characterized as partners who work together a very long time, the ones involved in Xavier's cause from the beginning. They're orderly and disciplined but as a group in contrast with the new team. But they have a lot of issues beneath that. (and as Hank, Bobby and Warren start trickling back in, the idea gets reinforced.) And of course, Kitty Pryde has joined the team, so we're looking at the kid adventure tropes that were so common in the 60s with fresh eyes.

So now, there's the urge to go back and poke and dissect and untangle what this all means. So we end up with X-Factor - the old team but all reeling from the events that happened to them since.

And after that, we pretty much get the consistent trend of revisiting the O5 but from a modern perspective. Professor Xavier and the X-Men was an outright retelling 90s style (egads) of the first few issues. I think John Byrne's Hidden Years came next - a revisiting of the time after Xavier's return from the death, giving us some nice Xavier-critical elements, as well as some good retroactive characterization for Bobby and Warren especially. And then First Class and Season One, and of course All-New X-Men.

I do think it's rather interesting that, for all of the consistent fascination that writers seem to have with the O5 era, there really isn't much between the adult members.

And I think that's been pretty consistent all along. There was X-Factor, of course, but once everyone ended up back in the same Claremont-Lee team, the O5 just kind of got subsumed into the different teams (Hank and Jean with Scott on X-Men Blue, while Warren and Bobby ended up on X-Men Gold.)

Maybe that's just because, at their heart, they don't really see themselves as separate from the X-Men on a whole. It's hard to say.

We do get a lot of moments between individual characters, but it's more in the sense of "we've known each other a long time" than a separate team identity.

IMO, the characters with the strongest bond, in terms of weight of history, are probably Scott and Hank. (Bobby and Hank spend more time together, but it's more as shallow jokesters most of the time. Scott and Jean are in love but she spent a lot of that time dead. And no one ever seems to know what to do with poor Warren. Even in All New X-Men, he tended to get split off or separated from the group.)

Scott and Hank generally end up as anchors of their team - leader and genius respectively, they tend to be more open about their trust in each other, and they're iconic enough to generally get included in the same adaptations. And of course, there was the conflict between them from Utopia onward - heck, Hank brought the O5 from the future specifically as a means to get at Scott.

It still boggles me that the dynamic between the adult versions of the characters never really gets addressed further. We end up with Scott's death, then his resurrection (when Hank is in Age of X?), then no interaction on Krakoa, then Hank's death... (Though I'd say Teen Scott and Teen Hank had a pretty strong dynamic all throughout.)

I mean, currently, Hank and Scott are on the same team again, but it's always going to feel incomplete and off putting as long as Scott's the only one who remembers their points of conflict.

I think my biggest disappointment in X-Manhunt is that despite being a crossover between books that contain four of the Original Five X-Men, there's so little between them and almost nothing about any of their relationship with Xavier beyond Scott's. It's a missed opportunity.

I meant to write this up earlier, got distracted.

I was meaning to ask you how you feel about the 05, if that you think they’re a compelling dynamic as a team post their original run(Post X Factor too even). One of the fascinating facts about X-men, to me, is how they nearly got the same fate as the inhumans circa the early 70s, relegated to a back forgotten corner of the universe had not claremont, cockrum and byrne stepped in.

It’s amazing to me how certainly the All New Cast replaces the 05 as the definitive X-men team in a pop culture consensus. We rarely see them all together anymore, even when X-men makes the conscious effort to go “back to basics,” like with the current X-men FTA runs.

I admit, I don’t get the same immediate understanding of the 05’s group dynamic when I read their original run, comparatively to other Lee Kirby creations of the era, with this feeling easing up by my reading of X-factor. They can feel less warm at times, and maybe that’s by design for that group specifically, I didn’t feel the same about the All New group during claremont’s run, regardless of how much bickering there was. Maybe it’s just writing of the time. Sorry if this is a ramble, I like picking your brain for x-men takes

Interesting question with a not so simple answer. Actually, that's not true. I could just say that the original run is 💩 and leave it at that, haha, but we both know I'm not going to. Generally though, I'm pretty confident in saying that if the 1963 run was the only X-Men that existed, I wouldn't care about it. It's likely I wouldn't even know about it. There's gold there (like Magneto), but you have to sift through a lot of chaff to get it. Even then, everything interesting about the book was refined by other hands or revisited.

Look at these bozos tucking Chuck in

I think one of the reasons they're so interesting is because that shared wacky, horribly traumatizing history is there. They're family, they're best friends, they're each other's ineffective support systems, they're ride or die soldiers and they've been through fucking EVERYTHING together. 62 years of hardcore paramilitary shit squeezed through a sliding timescale into only 15, growing every week with some new crisis. Dealing with only a life or death race war is a pretty good day for them on average - never mind aliens, Gods, time travelling killbots, possession, mind control, literally dying, torture, and every other thing including the kitchen sink. Who can they talk to that can actually understand? The Summers Protocols are written in their blood, protecting people who HATE them. How can these people not be intensely fucked up? So many words answering this question under the cut. 💯% rambling but it's definitely my thoughts on the O5 X-Men.

They can't, so they are. 15 year olds drafted into a forever war by a manipulative billionaire who's nearly as fucked up but pretends he's not. The school is up to code now (I mean it's a jail now but you know what I mean) and they teach real lessons, actual adults join willingly (you're 45% sure) and there's multiple telepaths around to keep Chuck in line. Newer X-Men get standardized training and are shadowed by experienced soldiers. You helped Scott formulate these protocols when you were both too traumatized to sleep one month. You're so glad that students' mental health is a priority but you worry they won't learn valuable repression skills. Bobby has the right idea, tell a joke. When people laugh it almost drowns out the particular soulless drone the Gen 1 sentinels made. Can anyone else hear that?

The Champions see like 1% of repressed X-Men trauma and wig out

These newer folks are family too but they weren't there man. It was the fucking wild west! You call home reflexively for the 250th time and your birth family is angry. 'We never had a son called Hank, stop calling us.' Why was that necessary again? Maybe the mindwipe will wear off one day. You'd ask The Professor about it but you don't want to risk demerits for disturbing his construction of death traps. Besides, you're studying Quantum Physics to maybe help survive fighting Magneto later. Why did you think about him? He's so terrifying, that look in his eye. Maybe you'll talk to Scott about it, but he's running the day's 400th simulation of your gruesome deaths. Bobby would just joke about it, but there's a sadness in his eyes that you recognise. This ... dream feels further away each day, your own dreams are much closer and they're always the same. Mutant/human relations just get worse and worse - you've wasted your life, and you're training a 10 year old with horns to follow you. You can't remember their name either. Was it Bong or Bing or? No they died the last time the school blew up. FUCK ! 😭

Yeeting bowling balls during free play was day 1 shit. 'Testing his reflexes.'

Okay hopefully I've made my point. They are beyond fucked up with terrible coping skills. Things you'd learn from family, friends or teachers, but your Messiah complex emotionally unavailable God King Chuck just recommended a codependent relationship. You can talk to the rest of the O5 (if they're alive and in control of their own minds) but they're just as fucked up. There's nobody else - they all want to kill you. And it. Never. Ever. Ends. Seriously. Fuck. Me. It just keeps getting worse. They've got so much history that every facet of their origins has multiple contradictory accounts. They're a beautiful mess found family that love each other so much but mostly don't know how to express it, let alone do healthy conflict resolution.

I didn't read the X-Men comics sequentially, so by the time I even knew what X-Men was the O5 had been mythologised in and out of universe. My baseline perception started there entwined with pop culture osmosis and as I read back through it all the context radically shifted around, especially the early stories or remixes of them. LBR, the 1963 run kinda sucks, lol. I love it, of course, but if you filed the X-Men's name off it I'd hate it. In a big way it's a historical artifact. The Rosetta Stone and Stonehenge except sixties camp. The time dilation just makes it ... wackier. I hate that word, not as much as zany, but I really don't like it. Let me explain.

Take the social and ethical values the 1963 characters have in their first run - they're not especially sympathetic or even heroic in many ways. Their politics is vapid, social awareness negligible, zero class consciousness. They mostly look better than the people they fight especially the alleged mutant liberationist who's a stylish yet run of the mill megalomaniac. A budget Doctor DOOM - though there's massive potential. I don't care what Stan Lee said retroactively - I don't buy an all-WASP pro-establishment group who beat up their fellow mutants as inspired by any progressive movement period, let alone civil rights. At best there's Red Scare aesthetic and vague iconography coming from the centre of both sidesism. That's on the page, that's the blueprint from which it all came.

The best and the worst. Magneto doing stuff and sex pests plus Drill Sergeant Chuck.

The characters are so popular and iconic that many books and flashbacks have been set in that time period. The Hidden Years, as Hickman so aptly put it in HoxPox. That alone (not to mention other media) makes it ripe for interpretation, speculation, and variations on the theme. Every time it's revisited there's a new angle, simply by virtue of time having passed. The X-Men were founded in 1963, but it's always fifteen years ago relative to the present. The O5's values (and technology level) are updated and/or deconstructed to reflect that, which in turn alters every dynamic. For example, instead of the X-Men being Mad Men-esque raging sex pests with eyes bulging out and tongue on the floor when Jean shows up, they're more realistic middle class teenagers to reflect that WOMEN ARE PEOPLE. Bobby's hypersexual performance is the most extreme but we know what he's repressing. Where 60s kids were gullible bootlicking fucks that bend to any authority (I assume - if you're a 60s child, no offence), no matter how unreasonable - X-Men: Season One showed Jean to be deeply suspicious of Xavier's motives, methods, and mission with the others not far behind her - the first instinct being to get far away from this bald lying maniac and his idiot plans. During the Magneto fight from issue #1 she's thinking 'we are NOT ready for this and someone is going to get hurt.' Chuck responds with 'duly noted.' She calls Chuck out about wiping minds and running a secret paramilitary group instead of a school and he has to try to present a coherent ideology. S1, and many other adaptations, stress that this is not normal, it's dangerous as fuck and there's massive question marks around whether these children are capable of consenting. Many such cases, etc. No, really, there's been so many remixes and additions to the HY and I love them. Even in the 60s and early 70s they'd break up or join other teams, show up in weird adventures with the rest of Marvel, retcon stuff from a few issues ago. First Class, Origins, Season One, and on and on.

Not really a school, you're in my army now.

Which interpretation is 'canon'? They're (mostly) deliberately incompatible so we have to decide for ourselves, piecing together a mosaic with drastically different tiles. We all have our own, likely influenced heavily by which corner/s of fandom we're in or the analysis we consume. I suspect we mostly choose what feels good for our faves, and I don't exclude myself from that. Adaptation theory holds that Siegel and Shuster defined the superhero genre with Superman and every work since that is an adaptation to some degree. Without being over literal in that I want to apply it to the X-Men separated by author/creator. Each adaptation of the X-teams is influenced by what came before, but the best are not beholden. Keep in mind that while Stan Lee's name was credited for a lot of stories in that era, it's unlikely he actually wrote them all, or by himself. The Hidden Years was built by many hands, they're just ... hidden.

Wein and Cockrum went big with Giant-Size, with Chuck recruiting globally to rescue the O5 under Cyclops' command then merged the two. Claremont came on board and adapted the Hidden Years formula into a sprawling epic with the Mutant Metaphor running through it. He'd open up the past with flashbacks but more importantly he retconned Magneto into a three dimensional antagonist. Moustache twirling VILLAIN!!! self identifying as evil becomes a deeply traumatized man struggling with the power to prevent another holocaust getting a little too committed to the bit. That retroactively makes us view the Hidden Years differently, if not entirely as the work of unreliable narrators. His years-long arc culminated in disavowing his actions and submitting to trial, then atoning through promising his loser husband he'd raise the new kids - The New Mutants. You can see the HY formula updated and tweaked into something far more interesting - an adaptation. The original run is adapted, but the characters from it stuck around too. On and on that went, decade after decade, until Bendis hit on yanking the O5 out of the HY and into the present. It kinda changed everything for me while exposing newer readers to the oldest X-Men.

Prepare for deconstruction. You'll hate it.

I truly laud Bendis and everyone else involved for revisiting their kitschy beginnings - bringing them to the eternal present away from Chuck and putting them in the audience surrogate position under the microscope. I'd argue that decision and execution reshaped the O5 , de- and re-constructing them in a modern environment. It had a lot of problems but it did wonders for the O5. The films had already done their own thing, but they didn't push the comics forward. They might have brought new eyes to see Patrick Stewart or Hugh Jackman in the art but the ideas flow one way 99.999% of the time - from comics to other media. House of M shook things up for everyone, but most of all it split the O5 again along militant lines. One thing led to another and the Phoenix upended their lives again with Scott killing Chuck in AvX. Scott was penitent but didn't slow down ideologically and the other living O5 had had enough - especially Hank. He time travelled and bought the young O5 forward to 'stop mutant genocide', then lost control of the situation. They weren't paragons from a better time who'd fix everything, they were just messed up kids and they had their own ideas.

A lot of fanfic tropes are used in the teen O5 conceit and I don't think that's a coincidence or a bad thing. Interestingly, instead of being a fix-it or alternate universe they're brought to us to suffer under the weight of expectations, their own legend/infamy, and saddled with the existential horror of predetermination. Predestination. Not just 'you will do these things' but 'the universe will blow up if you deviate even a little bit.' These legends walked among the present day X-Men, but as they were at the very beginning. Awkward teens. Here's the cliff notes on the 'truth' they learn and their reactions.

Beast - turns himself blue and furry, still has a crush on Jean, and becomes an irresponsible gonzo science MF. Can't believe it, freaks TF out, eventually learns magic.

Angel - can't get a straight answer for quite some time, eventually meets his amnesiac cloudcuckoolander shirtless self, cracks over the boatload of trauma waiting for him and tries to run.

Bobby - his two clown selves HATE each other despite being very similar, and spend most of the time on the back foot. Grows up a little then iis forcibly outed and does the same to his present self while knowing that he'll have to live the lie for decades.

Jean - super uncomfortable with the perfect dead Jean everyone has in their head and the legacy, learns she's got exactly one person in her romantic future and he killed Chuck. Everyone wants to either fuck her or kill her. Has multiple kids but also doesn't.

Scott - Learns he becomes the new Magneto and kills Chuck, flees in the face of Logan wanting to kill him/everyone treating him like he's adult Scott Summers. Has multiple kids who hate him and everything is upside down.

WTF Logan. Valid reaction, kids.

So these sixties ciphers (yeah I said it - Stan Lee wasn't a good character writer most of the time) come to the future under false pretence of saving it and they freak out. The social positions are flipped and the legendary progenitors of the X-Men institution just seem like loser teenagers. They have weak powers and everyone is disappointed with them one way or another - the original X-Men deconstructed and laid bare. It's decided they go back immediately and what do they do? They say 'fuck this shit, we came here to save the world and that's what we're going to do. Destiny can go fuck itself.' Their real superpowers of coping with endless mind bending horror and existential despair kick in.

Then we get years of reconstruction - breaking down exactly what makes them heroes and legends, but having them earn it as outsiders amongst outsiders. The pedestal is rejected because nobody deserves that shit. They're not perfect, they're relatable and yes, they are pretty fucking special. But they're still just kids and shouldn't really be here, doing paramilitary shit. They hold a mirror up to the absent Xavier and his dodgy fucking practices, to Logan and his Madonna/Whore delusions, to the school that inexplicably bears Jean's name. They do the same to adult Scott because they find it so hard to believe he's this mutant antichrist etc - and realise he's not that at all - they were lied to.

That bit is important because the X-Men assimilationist institution was in a post AvX reactionary phase united in hatred of Scott - who's ruining everything. It's a group delusion and the kids quickly see it doesn't match reality. They're shocked at how badly they failed their primary mission AND at how passive the X-Men are in the face of atrocities. They gradually learn about the details of their future and in doing so deconstruct the X-Men in general. Significantly, they grow wayyyy beyond the demerit-fearing yes men Chuck moulded them into and they actually get to be teenagers. Somewhat normal ones. They spend time on other teams, they kiss new people, they live outside the bubble of secrecy Xavier insisted on. Significantly, they're all treated as equally important characters and this undercurrent of sadness at the dead or no longer friends members weighs on them.

Xavier is viewed appropriately maybe for the first time as their initial shock at his underhandedness and secrecy blends with sympathising with his position. It IS easier to force people to do things. Way easier. It's heroic to choose not to, to be better, braver. They're very surprised about this but it doesn't take long for them to believe it. Characters in the present even make jokes about how shady he is. Compared to the eager beavers hanging off his every word in the 1963 run and beyond, it's night and day. So again, which is 'canon?' They can't both be, or can they?

They show the world why they are the O5. Not because of some regressive rose-tinted view of the past - because a bald billionaire chose them and they chose heroism over and over despite it ruining their lives. It was a position no children should have been put in, and that's really fucked up, but the struggle is real. They're special but you can be too. You're making history RN - they just did it first and oh boy have they suffered for it. That's why they should be revered - because they did it first. Their adult selves also show the mistakes made. Not one of them is happy or even stable and that shouldn't be surprising. They aren't perfect and neither is Charles Xavier. We should honour elders but be very suspicious when we can't question them. They aren't always right.

They don't buy into Logan's hype and bullshit either. They're appalled at his behaviour that everyone has come to accept, so much that he's instrumental in their deciding to stay in the present and then defect. This maniac is full of shit. Their Wolverine is Laura - a much better person and hero, who they spend time growing up with. Obviously that didn't stick but I kinda wish it did. When they were returned to the past by Cable they were mindwiped, but their older selves got their memories. Two sets of experiences, minimum. In a metatextual sense they had to choose their canon, lol.

Bruh, he's right there. 'Why don't you kill Scott?'

I'm speaking very personally here, but I suspect many fans can at least recognise the shape of their experiences in mine. Everyone's headcanon is going to be a little different, though, of course. I was already a fan of the O5 but ANXM recontextualised them for me. The ultimate adaptation in many ways because the original run just isn't that relatable. Important yes, but the characters were drastically improved by redoing their teen years through a contemporary, deconstructionist lens. The characters were improved and deepened by having to stare their origins/selves in the face and then living in the same world for years. I find it impossible to separate the multiple choice past so I don't bother, if that makes sense. There's value and entertainment for me in revisiting the earliest stuff but I view it through a modern lens where possible. Honestly, there's so damn much of it that it can all blend together at times.

I have more thoughts than that, tbh, but that's the core of what everything builds off. They're legends that were not just allowed to be imperfect, but forced to be. Destined to be, even. Each of them has been on wild journeys together and apart but that history is still there informing everything. To answer your question in a more direct way - with all that in mind I find the dynamic compelling in retrospect. Aside from Scott and Jean they drift in and out of each other's lives, kinda like IRL relationships. That dynamic hasn't existed since it first started being adapted IMO, but it still informs their modern interactions and relationships. They're fluid like that.

Thanks for the ask!

[chaika-jpeg-shitpost]

Joseph, just like Chika, had someone weak and helpless in his care. However, when the threat of death from starvation drove him into a corner, he refused to abandon the one he promised to protect. Unlike Chika

[mollysunder]

The one thing I don't understand about the theory where Piltover and Zaun are teaming up to fight Noxus in the end, is why are Vi and Ekko flying towards Jinx's supposed airship if they're on the same team? Why does Vi NEED to confront Jinx in the middle of a warzone?

We see Ekko in garb that looks like he's on Jinx's side, but we mostly see him with the Firelights in those scenes, and they not decorated in Jinx's colors. Even minor background characters that are on Jinx/Sevika's side have a pink X on the right side of their chest. The Firelights are completely free of any graffiti or markers that would identify them with Jinx, and Vi is in an enforcer uniform. We don't see any other Zaunites in the crowd, but for some reason Vi and Ekko are centering their concentration on Jinx.

I think what's happening is that Ambessa's forces are fighting against Piltover's enforcers, but Jinx isn't helping, she's taking advantage of the chaos. Jinx is probably in Piltover to do something big that Piltover can't defend against since they're preoccupied with Noxus. Jinx will probably think the fight between Noxus and Piltover is the best opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. Vi and Ekko will probably object, they'll say her plan goes too far, and it'll get people killed. The whole scenario will probably be a more extreme mirror to whatever the Silco flashback will reveal about what went down on the Day of Ash and why Vander tried to kill Silco, except this time with magic.

[lyingintheclouds]

as i just said concisely in the kamome gakuen discord:

transcript below. there’s a lot

i’m freaking crying

IM CRYING OKAY I DON'T USUALLY CRY. THIS IS SUCH A GOOD GOOD GOOD VIDEO

IT MADE ME CRY HOW TF DID IT MAKE ME CRY??? BY BEING SO FREAKING GOOD IT MADE ME CRY. GO WATCH.

IT ALSO STARTED WITH TINY LIGHT SO I THINK THAT FACTORED IN

OUFGH SOMEONE WITH A GOOGLE ACCOUNT INVITE THEM HERE PLS

I WANT TO DISSECT THEIR MIND

(translation: it's the Cinna Hours)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

IM. SO FLOORED BY THIS IM TOO OBSESSED WITH THIS SERIES IT'S PAIN IT REJUVENATES ME AND REVIVES ME AND REFRESHES ME AND RIPS MY HEART OUT BEFORE SQUASHING IT AND CUTTING IT INTO SMALL PIECES THROWN INTO A DARK DARK WELL IM SO NORMAL. ABOUT THIS SERIES

SOMEONE STAB ME.

THAT WAY WE CAN SUFFER TOGETHER FOREVER

LET ME FLOP ON THE FLOOR LIKE A FISH FOR A BIT IM GOING TO SPROUT TENTACLES AND JUMP OFF OF A BUILDING INTO A WELL TO JOIN THE REST OF THE PEOPLE THAT DIED AS A RESULT OF JSHKILLS YOU STABS YOU MURDERS YOU WITH A BLOODSTAINED KNIFE TWISTS YOUR NECK OFF HITS YOU WITH A CAR AND DRIVES AWAY TRAILING BLACK INK

UGH

i need to die

(psst. the really cool person who started this all,,, here’s a link to the tbhkblr discord </3 i don’t think you’ll see it though. but. i can try)

best transition sentence ever written in the tbhk fandom:

33:39 minutes in and i hear "and with that i will spend the next 20 minutes justifying cannibalism".

[genericpuff]

vent post

[yeonbam]

People who wonder why Jack is so sensitive about Joke’s constant theft to get his way, even if it is for Jack, forget that one of the main prejudices against economically struggling classes of people is that those from privileged classes look at them with suspicion of crimes like theft literally chronically.

And Jack is the kind of person who is extra hard on himself because of the things he doesn’t have and he wants to escape this ‘othering’, this dehumanization of sorts, by using with what he has— his skills and knowledge, i.e. socially acceptable means.

This aversion to theft is seen even in Tattoo’s mother when she chastises her son for stealing from Boss despite how much they are literally suffering because of him. To escape prejudice against poor people being inherent thieves, they have to be ten times better than the average person, can't be immoral the same way the rich are, or else their suffering magically becomes "deserved" because they're not "good poor people."

YET, the complexity of this othering is so deep that even wanting to be self-reliant is frowned upon, as you see when Joke’s Dad criticizes Jack for being ‘poor but proud’ to want to give his grandmother the best medical treatment.

The reality is, the source of this ‘pride’/self-reliance, is literally… never having anyone who will help you out of your situations. Boss helping his grandmother with medicine was literally a scheme to use her to control Jack. And help for the hospital bills came at the price of his life and identity in the hands of Boss.

The first time Jack got help for his dream was from Joke and it ended in the shattering of his hopes due to betrayal and being almost involved in theft— of all things.

Jack is the amalgamation, of all these expectations from others and from himself. He is simultaneously inclined to be the perfect ‘victim’ and the saviour who, having lost his own childhood, wants to give all the things he never had to the children. It is going to be a chance for them and a second chance for himself. He formed this idea when he too was just a baby.

[crystallizsch]

another sleep deprived moment: i read jade leech as “jamil leech” goodbye im going to sleep

[storm-and-starlight]

wow goddamn got called "fucking stupid" for pointing out that I feel like Sanderson's register got significantly modernized in later books on that post like. my guy. what the hell. you literally could have just blocked me instead of insulting me if I said something you didn't like anyways I'll say it here loud and proud I fucking hate Sanderson's writing and I mostly only read his books bc he's good at plot and cool worldbuilding

[chiropteracupola]

And you would not believe me if I tried / To tell you all the things I've seen / And all the places that I've been / So pour the hall another cup of wine...

[a cei for @mortiscausa’s ’march to camelot,’ for the prompt ‘kinship’]

[itspileofgoodthings]

when will Catholic Instagram influencers realize they can’t “sis you are infinitely worthy” their way out of everything

[nerdcrawfish]

HEY UH.

You know how when you close your eyes you see black?? Um, TFs have glowing eyes--so would they actually see the lit up backs of their lids?

Or do the eye lights shut off when they close their optics lids like a refrigerator??

does it... does it click??

[darabeatha]

@hasarjunadoneanythingwrong replied ; this is super informative tbh

/ Thank youuuuu 😭😭😭😭😭 I love him lots and there's so little about him floating around !! it was through my researching and reading that i kept finding things that made sense to me about his design, like maybe a lot of these are speculations from my end/overthinking stuff and it's not that deep (or maybe it is who knows!) but I just love history and character design and symbolism and meaning, and I grew too attached to this emperor 😔✋