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ladystoneboobs · 4 months

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an examination of theon greyjoy's feelings about and (implied) relationship with evil uncle euron

Theon searched for his uncle Euron's Silence. Of that lean and terrible red ship he saw no sign, but his father's Great Kraken was there, her bow ornamented with a grey iron ram in the shape of its namesake. [...] It might be only a caution, now that he thought on it. A defensive move, lest the war spill out across the sea. Old men were cautious by nature. His father was old now, and so too his uncle Victarion, who commanded the Iron Fleet. His uncle Euron was a different song, to be sure, but the Silence did not seem to be in port. It's all for the good, Theon told himself. This way, I shall be able to strike all the more quickly. -Theon I, aCoK

the first we read of euron is in theon's first pov as he searched the harbor at lordsport for euron's ship. no reason is given for singling that ship out nor an initial reaction to its absence. later down the page euron is described as different from balon and victarion, with none of an older man's caution to be expected from him. that's why theon thought it for the best that euron's ship was not in port, though at this point it appears his only concern is being the boldest greyjoy around, commanding the fleet all the more quickly for its already being assembled, and not being outshone by euron. the only hint at more is his description of the ship as "terrible".

"You can marry off your sister," Esgred[Asha] observed, "but not your uncles." "My uncles . . ." Theon's claim took precedence over those of his father's three brothers, but the woman had touched on a sore point nonetheless. In the islands it was scarce unheard of for a strong, ambitious uncle to dispossess a weak nephew of his rights, and usually murder him in the bargain. But I am not weak, Theon told himself, and I mean to be stronger yet by the time my father dies. [...] [Asha-as-Esgred, to Theon:] "Euron Croweye has no lack of cunning, though. I've heard men say terrible things of that one." Theon shifted his seat. "My uncle Euron has not been seen in the islands for close on two years. He may be dead." If so, it might be for the best. Lord Balon's eldest brother had never given up the Old Way, even for a day. His Silence, with its black sails and dark red hull, was infamous in every port from Ibben to Asshai, it was said. -Theon II, aCoK

by theon's next chapter, when he and (unknown, to him) asha discuss their greyjoy uncles, theon has learned that euron hasn't been seen in the iron islands for two years. atp, rather than just noting that euron's not at home, theon has decided it's for the best if he's died somewhere and can never return. the word terrible is again used wrt euron and it's also said that his ship is infamous all over the world. euron is the only greyjoy never to have given up the old way in any sense, and the implied danger to theon is that he could also partake in the old tradition of a strong, ambitious uncle murdering his nephew. euron has thus been establishled as a villain, a threat, and possible kinslayer more specifically but we have yet to learn all the other, more unique aspects of his villainy. i think it likely that grrm, with his gardener-writing, had not yet decided that euron was an incestuous sexual predator. the risk of nepoticide is enough to explain theon's nervous shifting at the mention of euron's cunning and the terrible things said of him, but it could also apply to euron's full characterization only revealed years later in aeron's pov, one of those little half-open seeds gardener-grrm could decide to grow later.

[Robb Stark, to his assembled bannermen and his mother:] "Euron Greyjoy is no man's notion of a king, if half of what Theon said of him was true. Theon is the rightful heir, unless he's dead . . . but Victarion commands the Iron Fleet. I can't believe he would remain at Moat Cailin while Euron Crow's Eye holds the Seastone Chair. He has to go back." -Catelyn V, aSoS

our next clue about theon/euron is not from his own pov but in the book between his arcs when he's "offscreen". i'd say the fact that theon had confided to robb at all about euron is significant, let alone that he related enough things about euron for robb to rhetorically dismiss half of what theon told him and still feel confident of ironborn infighting with euron on the throne. (with theon's status unknown and asha absent from the isles too, euron would have a claim to that throne and a better one than victarion regardless as the eldest surviving greyjoy. vic is the dutiful younger brother who wouldn't normally make any power play, so for robb to know that euron's rule would be challenged by his younger brothers shows he does indeed have insider intel wrt euron.)

this accurate read from robb stands in pretty, ahem, stark contrast to everything theon must have told robb and himself about the likelihood of a robb/balon alliance. an impartial observer who knew (as theon did) that balon's first rebellion was about bringing back the old way more than just independance from the iron throne would have known those goals were not in line with the kitn's cause and that alliance was a no-go from the start. we see in the quoted portion of theon i above how he lied to himself about balon becoming a cautious old man and this being his time in the sun, yet it seems euron was the one family member he couldn't lie to himself about. not only did euron make such an impression on him that theon always remembered him very clearly but the effect was such that amid all his hostage time at wf fantasizing about his return home, he felt the need to tell robb the truth about this one scary relative by confiding in him with multiple stories. (though if euron had sexually abused theon, i can't imagine him ever explicitly revealing that to robb or anyone else.)

"My uncle[Victarion] is never coming back," Reek told them[the ironmen Victarion abandoned at Moat Cailin]. "The kingsmoot crowned his brother Euron, and the Crow's Eye has other wars to fight. You think my uncle values you? He doesn't. You are the ones he left behind to die. He scraped you off the same way he scrapes mud off his boots when he wades ashore." -Reek(/Theon) II, aDwD

this is euron's only name-drop in theon's dance pov, significant only in that it shows theon had recent news of his uncles, enough to know that euron dgaf about keeping balon's northern conquests and had instead drawn vic and the other captains far away. which brings me to ...

Crowfood. Theon remembered. An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard. He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron. He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice. Instead he had whimpered [...] -Theon I, tWoW

here, we have theon meeting a non-bolton northman he's known before, no different really from all the non-bolton northmen inside wf or any others he'd met growing up there, none of whom really seemed to scare him as his captors did, yet the mere sight of mors "crowfood" umber's eye patch is enough to freak theon the fuck out, wanting to rip off the eye patch for reassurance that crowfood was just a regular guy. this is the kind of terror we'd expect wrt ramsay, which would make sense in that regard, as ramsay had been his most immediate abuser, torturing theon in every sense for around a year almost right up until the moment of his escape, and ramsay's still right there in wf, so theon had good reason to still fear recapture by him. euron, though? that's an uncle he hadn't seen in over ten years, who theon knew to be far from wf as seen in the above dance quote, so he had no reason to expect to see him again in that part of westeros and one would think he had enough immediate problems not to worry about someone he hadn't seen in so long. you'd think his pre-ned, pre-ramsay childhood with all the greyjoys would feel a lifetime away with all he'd been through since, esp the reekening. but whatever impression euron left on him was still just as clear and fresh as ever, so that anyone with an eye patch could suddenly make him feel fear of an uncle hundreds of miles and a decade removed from him. from this moment i take away two things: 1) theon will survive stannis and have to meet uncle euron again bc otherwise i don't see the point of grrm throwing this in here and 2) it now feels a helluva lot more likely that theon was another csa victim of euron's bc i don't think this kind of sudden fear could be accounted for with just general scariness from euron. feels more like being triggered by a trauma flashback (just as aeron had as soon as he heard that euron had taken balon's throne), doesn't it? and after having been recently sexually abused by ramsay all that time it makes sense that he'd be even more sensitive to reminders of another abuser as soon as he'd finally escaped ramsay, moreso than when he was just nervously shifting as he and asha vaguely talked of euron's terribleness.

after all, theon/aeron are already linked in the feastdance as both are youngest greyjoy siblings who happen to also be victims of abuse who had buried their old selves in a new identity. aeron's old self even sounds a lot like pre-ramsay theon. theon remembered pre-born-again aeron as the "most amiable of his uncles, feckless and quick to laugh, fond of songs, ale, and women", and aeron described his younger self as "a sack of wine with legs. He would sing, he would dance [...] he would jape and jabber and make mock. He played the pipes, he juggled, he rode horses and could drink more than all the Wynches and the Botleys, and half the Harlaws too." doesn't that sound like the ever-smiling and joking unserious theon we first met, fond of wine and womanizing, once a good dancer, and better ahorse than most ironborn? the only part really missing for theon is aeron's ability to always win literal pissing contests. you'd think being sexually abused by two different evildoers (euron and ramsay) would be enough of a parallel, but this winds preview chapter certainly makes it seem like they also shared the specific experience of being abused by euron in childhood too. our poor youngest kraken really did never have a chance, did he?

shoutout to this post detailing the evidence of theon's sa by ramsay for inspiration. ik i'm not the first to suggest abuse by euron too, but thought it useful to make the case by laying out all the relevant quotes as evidence.

#valyrianscrolls #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #theon greyjoy #euron greyjoy #aeron greyjoy #what is dead may never die #i really do think asha is the only younger kin euron hasn't been sexually invasive w in some way #vic was too close in age and too big so he raped vic's wife instead and parades naked in front of him #obvsly there would still be shame for an ironborn lady to be raped but we see in aeron's twow chap and w the way vic treated the maester #how much more stigma there would be for a male victim. so if euron tried anything w asha theres some chance it gets back to balon but #he knows that boys would never feel safe revealing such a crime #funny how even w bastardized tv!euron i saw showfans getting creepy sex vibes from his two scenes w fam #cw sa mention #cw csa #theon thursday!#(c)lsb

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bleue-flora · 3 months

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It never ceases to amaze me about how many different dehumanizing labels Dream is cast in. The tyrant, the green boy, the bad guy, the wrong’un, the villain, a psycho, psychopath (which tbh are already rather kinda extreme for his supposed crimes especially at the beginning when they started). But then they go further, calling him a snake thing, pure evil, a monster [clip], a freaking ghoul [clip], even to the point of calling him Lucifer in the finale - The Biblical incarnate of evil [clip].

And what’s really interesting is the inconsistency in which Dream reacts - because on one hand he should stand up for himself, but on the other maybe he should just lean into it and maybe they’ll leave him alone. Maybe the fear and label can be his defense instead of their offense. And that gives him control over it, turns him from the victim to the victor.

In the disc confrontation, Tommy calls him pure evil and asks “how do you sleep at night”, to which he responds “just fine” [clip] {oddly, directly contradicting his comment to Techno about no sleeping btw lol…}. Later, he talks about building the prison with a “little bit of evil” but then counters Tommy’s accusation of calling him evil again with “evil is in the eye of the beholder” and “you’re evil to me” [clip].

In the finale, towards the end, Tommy talks about how he saw Dream as nothing but The villain but that isn’t true, and surprisingly Dream disagrees by saying “I am. I tortured you” [clip] {also contradicting what he says to Sam in Daedalus…}. Which is interesting. In the finale, he also makes statements like ‘we can’t because we’re soo evil’ and “we have done plenty of evil evil things” [clip] (which Punz actually counters with “not for no reason.”) But in instances when they call him a psycho and psychopath he has a different reaction saying “huh, I mean, I wouldn’t say that,” [clip] “I’m not a psycho. Everything I do is deliberate” [clip] and, in the finale, “you guys are psychos. You broke in and tried—and killed me in my own house—the prison.” [clip]

One of the keys here I think is the distinction of having reasons - he’s not evil for kicks, he has a reason and motive and logic behind it. Something, in the finale, he questions whether Tommy has, first because he broke in and killed him unfounded and then towards the end of the stream asking about why he constantly steals and griefs and stuff, “why are you trying to ruin everything all the time.” [clip] - What was your reason? Because that mattered to Dream, someone can do evil things but they have their reasons, it’s when they don’t that they are more so truly evil.

He may have done evil things, he may even be the villain, but in his mind he’s not a psycho or pure evil, or a monster because he has reasons, there is a reason he did the things he did, there is a reason he ended up here. Not that those make his deeds justified and less evil (like Sam and Quackity more so believe) but that just makes him a person, who sure does evil, but also feels, and has reasons, desires, and motivations…etc. Just like everyone else. He doesn’t even see Quackity, who confessed to being sadistic and spent months torturing him, as pure evil or even a psychopath instead saying sarcastically in Daedalus, “like Quackity ‘cause he’s full of feelings… He’s totally not a sociopath…” because that distinction between sociopath and psychopath in Dream’s mind is important. Quackity is a bad person but he isn’t the embodiment of evil, he’s just a person who did evil things.

During the first war, Wilbur calls him a little lizard snake thing, to which Dream responds “I’m powerful” [clip]. Which is strange and kinda sad to me that despite being called an actual animal(s), one more importantly often representing evil like Lucifer the snake, he doesn’t counteract it. Maybe because he’s tired of Wilbur calling him similar dehumanizing terms or tired of arguing with Wilbur in general, since everyone believes him anyways. Regardless, he instead rephrases Wilbur’s words - maybe I am a lizard or a snake but you better not step on me because I am venomous and powerful. Which aligns pretty well with his monologue [transcript] where he talks about “Do snakes just bite?” or is there a reason. Because maybe he can’t change Wilbur and Tommy’s metaphor and maybe he can’t change the label of evil despite his attempts because everyone believes them instead, but maybe he can try and use their own words to defend himself. Maybe then they’ll see him as an actual person. {or not…}

#i hope this makes sense I’m not sure I did a good job expressing what I mean but I tried… this has been on my mind for a while #dsmp #c!dream #dreblr #dream smp #dsmp analysis #no one does it like c!dream #dsmpblr #dsmp dream #pandora's vault #did someone order an essay?#this is fine #aghdbnabdbbd god I’m sorry it just… how is he the bully again? heh?… like damn talk about name calling #no lie when Tommy called Dream Lucifer I laughed out loud before class in a college class room and got stares XD LOL… like bruh for real?#dsmp lore #snake monologue #some snakes just bite do you do I? not even once?……

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