#but he chooses to kill it and commit fully to being the villain

[wavebiders]

Thinking about the concept of redemption in Warcraft being about choice first and foremost. Rotating it around in my head.

[kerubimcrepin]

Liveblog: Wakfu Season 2 (episodes 13-16)

Episode 13 - The Night of the Thirsters

Proof Amalia and Joris are not close friends number 829342345: if she knew the alcohol he drinks and what he considers "a clean environment to live in" she'd get scared.

WoT twitter would kill Amalia.

I know it's more likely that both alcoholic and non-alcoholic bamboo milk exists, but the thought of everyone being a-ok with Yugo underage drinking makes me giggle for some reason. Ruel would fucking do that.

Are your villains 1. indestructible, 2. want to consume something that could theoretically fix them, 3. in the process, inflict a fate worse than death upon their victim, who 4. becomes one of them?

...Necromes were a missed opportunity. Shoulda called them Wakfu Thirsters instead.

Episode 14 - The Voice Thief

It's always sad to see the way the world has been devastated by Ogrest's Chaos.

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...This says:

Her singing is so cute!

She is now fully bamboo milk-pilled. GOOD.

New Krosmoz music lore: We already know that vinyls and their players exist, as well as the fact that rock music exists (due to the fact that The Blues of a Hypermage (parody of the IRL song The Blues of a Buisinessman) exists).

Now we have the confirmation that metal bands are real.

Also, electric guitars are also real.

Mics are also real. (I am totally not noting all of this down because I want to write a "Joris, Kerubim, and Atcham go to karaoke" scene in one of my fics in the future, nuh-uh...)

Hummina hummina hummina bazooooooooing! eyes pop out AROOOOOOOOGA! jaw drops tongue rolls out WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF.

It's very rare to see, within the show, characters who differ from their usual class skin and hair colours, which is a shame. (I am 99% sure this is an iop due to his clothes and his hair pointing upwards)

Text behind Eva: rien ne sert de payer il faut en fuir / there is no point in paying, you have to run away

Text behind Amalia is too shielded to transcribe fully.

This is written in Brakmarian. It says:

This means that, metal music is stereotypically a Brakmarian form of music (big news: spoon found in kitchen)

I usually don't point this sort of stuff out but, man, this tavern is really well off. Not only is there a lot of food, there are also huge hot baths...

Also, once again, canalization and running water are real in this setting.

I choose to believe that this bubble thing is the Krosmoz equivalent of vaping because it's funny.

[blushing] Would!

Jpop is real in this setting, and someday, I will be able to prove to you, that Joris is a fan of it, using some proof besides "well ecaflips are kind of japanese-coded sometimes" and "it just makes sense."

Good rooms in taverns like these not only have hot baths but also fruit, candles, and drinks... [starts writing down "Joris, Kerubim and Atcham go to an expensive tavern and start talking about some convoluted topic, with vivid descriptions of delicious fruit-eating, how good the wine is, and how soft the bubbles in the bath are" in my fic self-indulgent scene ideas document. I can live my vacation fantasies vicariously through those three men]

Of course metal music from Brakmar is about the fact that the apocalypse caused inflation and that it's Good.

This says:

ourse

olle

m al

venu

Episode 15 - Wabbit Island

Hhh she is a very good artist.

[guy who is insane voice] This means that if I ever want to use the expression "canary in a coalmine" in a fic it'll be "tofu in a coalmine" instead.

The word Sayonara exists in Krosmoz which implies that some sort of fantasy Japanese is real. Big win.

Episode 16 - The Cursed Fountain

:(

While I usually talk a lot about character parallels between Yugo and Joris (these men who had to grow up far too fast will someday commit acts which no human being can be forgiven for in the name of goodness—-) there is a lot to be said about parallels betwen Eva and Joris.

They're both artistic, kind people who try to appear logic-driven (and sadly, they are both basically the wranglers/babysitters of their entire adventuring groups).

[haine-kleine]

After rewatching the final episode of Arcane and listening to The other side of paradise for an hour straight, started thinking how cool Dabi's arc would have been if it had taken a similar approach.

Shouto confronts Touya and reminds him of the home he had left behind, of a gaping hole his absence had created. He is empathetic and well intentioned, he genuinely wants to understand Touya and get to know him better, but he just can't wrap his head around his brother committing such heinous acts. Wasn't he raised by Endeavour, who taught all his children to treat villains with contempt? Didn't Touya want to become a hero, someone who fights villains and saves innocent people? So why did he get it backwards? Why protect the villains and attack the innocents, his own brother?

Ultimately, Shouto doesn't really know Touya. He would like to treat him like a victim, like someone he could understand and bond with. He barely has any memories of his brother, so he turns to Fuyumi, Natsuo and Rei to get their impressions of Touya, before the second war. They paint a picture of a sad, lonely boy, who kept hurting himself despite the family trying to get him to stop. He learns from Natsuo that Touya used to be a crybaby. He learns from Fuyumi of how sensitive Touya was, storming off to sulk alone when his feelings were hurt. He learns from Rei of the burning, double-edged sword Touya's obsession with his father used to be.

He learns from Dabi that he did come home after the fire. He learns that his agency wasn't fully taken away from him, that Touya wasn't molded by force into the shape of Dabi.

Shouto, much like the rest of the family, fails to fully realize that Dabi isn't what become of Touya, that Dabi is Touya.

No matter how many times they visualize a Touya who isn't Dabi, he will always remain a picture at the altar, a grave headstone without a body.

Without them even realizing, the family chooses the dead, buried and mourned Touya over the one who survived. They need to 'kill' Touya again to even accept Dabi being him. He is a despicable lie, a monster who stole their son and brother's good name. Shouto, who had barely interacted with Touya at all, has an easier time looking at Dabi and accepting him as Touya, but partly due to seeing himself in his brother.

They share the trauma of being their father's 'product', a means to an end, but after that point, their paths diverge.

Touya does have a life outside of his family and the trauma associated with them now. He does have people at his side who won't see a ghost of his past self looming over his head and always choose the ghost. He has people who understand and value him, the people he loves and wants to support back. His family would never come to a point of supporting or even ever understanding these people. It's his own unique experience that has led him to finding his place in the League of Villains, and this experience had irrevocably changed Touya. He is still himself and will always remain so, and as much as he wanted to die after the fire, wanted to die for the long and hopeless seven years before Stain's appearance, he has reasons to live and fight for now. Even if these reasons are going to separate him from his family. He has accepted the pain of letting them go, they had let go and mourned him already.

Faced with a choice of confronting his father for the last time or following Shigaraki and Toga, he chooses the latter. While he had processed the grief of being separated and buried by his family, he still can't accept Twice's death. He doesn't want to lose any more people from the League. He had come back home after his death, and he chose to leave it for good. He is never coming back.

[frenchtantan]

There's something that has been bugging me for a while about the QSMP fandom and it's that... Too many people (not the majority but still) seem to not accept character actions have consequences, regardless of intention.

The biggest example is q!Cellbit. If you look at his background and his history with the Federation, him snapping and deciding to kill workers is understandable.

But it doesn't make his actions forgivable.

It's still deeply wrong, it's like the extreme version of getting mad at the waiter because your food tastes bad.

And if you get mad at q!Bagi for not fully supporting his actions just because it's her brother, or at q!Baghera for calling his behaviour "weak" (she's fucking right by the way), you're a dumbass of the highest degree...

Same thing with q!Bad and his morally grey behavior, kidnapping a worker was wrong (even though it ironically ended up with Ron being the most safe of all), and q!Tubbo confronting him about it is a consequence of this.

What's worse is that the content creators choosing these paths for their character KNOW this! You think Cellbit expects smooth sailing for his arc? Fuck no! He WANTS conflict to arise from this. He's going for a villain arc, V I L L A I N. By getting mad when people oppose him, you're objectively going against his wishes.

Also, and I can't stress this enough, as the audience we know way more than the characters. It's stupid that it has to be said time and time again, yet here we are. Just because you know what led to a decision doesn't mean other characters do. In fact, 99% of the time, they won't know.

And even if they did, I can assure you, it is very much possible to understand what lead to a character committing a bad action, while still considering that action bad! It's quite literally the best way to analyse a villain arc without being rude or throwing insults.

I don't know where I'm going with this... I guess I got tired of people saying the phrase "I support their rights and wrongs" and using it way too literally. Support the content creator making their character commit wrong actions by all means, but don't get mad when other characters act NORMAL by considering it wrong.

[leportraitducadavre]

Do you think people in the fandom would be more forgiving towards Sasuke character as a whole if we got the show from his perspective or if not that then if his thoughts are more shown?

I find myself drawn to his character because, in many ways, I see reflections of my own inclinations, albeit magnified. The tumultuous events that unfolded within his clan and the devastating actions of his brother, wiping out everyone, add a layer of complexity to his character. It's kind of intrigued me to consider that, under similar circumstances, I might make similar choices, perhaps even worse. The Narutoverse, with its deeply rooted issues like child soldiers, clan annihilation, and internal slavery within the Hyuga branch, presents a grim reality. While some characters, and even elements of the fandom, criticize and reject his actions, arguing that trauma should not be an excuse, it's hard to ignore the systemic problems within the Narutoverse itself. The pervasive cycle of suffering, with clans being wiped out and individuals enslaved, points to a broken system that breeds villains and antagonists seeking change.

In contrast to the complacency and cooperation displayed by many characters, those who rebel against the established order and strive for something different, flawed as their execution may be, at least attempt to address the root issues. The fact that they are trying to break free from the oppressive system suggests a level of agency and resistance, even if I may not fully agree with their methods. That's why I'm more forgiving towards the antagantis like Pain, Madara and especially in Sasuke case.

Reflecting on Naruto's journey and his current achievements the fundamental issues persist unchanged.

Also, sorry if this got long I ramble a lot when discussing lol. I hope you have a good day.

Hello, this took long to reply, and for that, I apologize.

I don’t think the issue is “not having Sasuke’s thoughts on display” for him to get sympathy, as we get to see firsthand the reasoning behind his actions, his background, and connections; we also get to see the atrocities committed by the system on multiple characters including those that the fandom takes as “less controversial” and which are considered victims of a bigger scale than Sasuke. I put more blame on the naturalization of state-sanctioned violence and the oppression of minority groups who are then blamed for their village’s actions as they are “savage-coded,” which turns the government’s oppression into a response to their behavior rather than an action born from their own bias. Their ultimate argument always boils down to “fighting violence with violence is not the way,” yet they fail to understand that a government built with brutality as its primary basis and as its primary tool leaves no room for negotiations, as it also implies that those oppressed continue to be oppressed until a “solution” is reached through time. They blame those discriminated against and later on massacred for their demise and not those in power who decided that committing genocide was a plausible solution to their dispute. 

The main issue with the idea that “their hearts are in the right place, but I don’t agree with the antagonist methods” also derives from this same perspective, where the discriminated must take all the consequences of the persecution they suffered and choose the “moral high ground” still to keep being “victims” and not become “victimizers.” Their categorization as innocents/savages is always based upon their response to the mass killing of their kin, minimizing the actions of those in power and diminishing the value of their critics to the system in place. 

Yet, while the naturalization of state-sanctioned violence plays a part in Sasuke’s status as a “villain” by many of his detractors, it’s not the only one, as many feel Naruto has a similar (perhaps harder) experience with the system in place as he was ostracized, yet he chose to follow Konoha’s WoF –many fans are closer to experience something similar to Naruto (an unpopular kid that was often shunned by comrades), so they feel more inclined to stand behind a character that reflects a personal experience of them, and not behind the boy who suffered genocide, a thing not many can see themselves in nor can build sympathy for as they (again) naturalized such occurrence. 

The popularization of the action genre featuring first-world soldiers invading the global south, whose focus is more on the trauma that lingers in the invader for trying to bring peace than on the indiscriminate killing of minorities, also contributes to seeing those in power as more humane or deserving of redemption than those responding violently against the intruders, because those invaded should put their trust in the “good intentions” of those abiding by the system that destroyed them in the first place.

[archivalofsins]

You won't tolerate sin?

Let's get right back into this! When we finished off the last post we were still discussing question seven of Kotoko's second written interrogation.

This post is a direct continuation of the last post. In this we'll be discussing Kotoko's mindset towards the law and sin. I hope some people can find enjoyment from it.

Q.07 Why did you choose law school?

Kotoko: Because I had some doubts about it. That's my excuse for wanting to study it. I think complaining about something you don't fully understand is disgraceful.

Why this phrasing of her answer is being used is explained in depth in the first part. Now let's get back into it for real-

You won't tolerate sin?

"Yes. I despise evil."

I want readers to really let what Kotoko said sink in. She doesn't say she despises criminals or crime. She states that she won't tolerate sin or evil.

The failure to distinguish between these things is what I believe is tripping people up about Kotoko the most.

For example a good while back I saw people being surprised about how Kotoko went from this,

Q.03 Do you think any other prisoners who committed the same sin as you deserve to be forgiven?

Kotoko: Of course. Haven’t I already said that I believe my actions have been correct?

Q.16 How do you feel about extenuating circumstances?

Kotoko: I think it’s important to consider. I don’t believe it’s true that all crime is inherently evil, so obviously the situation should be taken into account.

Q.20  What do you consider “evil”?

Kotoko: The persecution of the weak and innocent.

To this,

22/12/15 (Kotoko’s Birthday)

Mikoto: Ah, Koto-chan. It’s been a while. Both of us have kinda split off from the group, but how’ve things been? A lot’s happened, but for now let’s try to get along. I mean, it’s your birthday today, right? I got the feeling nobody else was going to do anything, so I came to celebrate.

Kotoko: ……how carefree. It doesn’t matter, a villain like you won’t be forgiven next time either. And when that time comes, it’ll be the end for you. I’ll make sure of it myself.

Mikoto: Ahh?? Just try and do it, you nutjob. I’ll crush anyone who hurts me…… You’re gonna be totally beaten at your own game……! [TN: The word “me” here uses first person pronoun “boku”.]

Kotoko: Hm. The border between the two is getting a lot vaguer. Your entire existence is a crime. And I will see you’re punished for it. That is what Milgram, and Es, and I have chosen.

Yet if we all take a moment to really look at what she's said and her wording closely. How she called Mikoto a villain but says the other's existence is a crime. The way she differentiates between criminals and evil.

Mikoto (John) is a criminal because his existence itself goes against Milgram's rules. As Jackalope said during the second trial commencement notice due to Mikoto (John's) existence Mikoto has been left free and unrestrained by Milgram's rules. Making it difficult for them to fully punish him.

One could say he's aiding and abetting Mikoto the prisoner by simply being there. Which is why Kotoko refers to his existence as a crime but tells Mikoto to his face that he's a villain.

As well as why she states she doesn't think all crime is inherently evil while remaining so certain she should be forgiven. Because she believes what she did was not evil. That what she did wasn't a sin. Because it was the only way to make the world better.

She's just making the necessary sacrifices for the betterment of society in her mind that could never be a sin.

"I did kill someone, as you say. This is the one reason why I believe in the power of Milgram. But I only took a life for the sake of protecting the weak from the absolute evil. I became a shield of the weak, because I am the fangs of the weak. Even when there is someone who blames me for my actions, such as you, Es..."

"From the beginning I've never asked for your understanding! My actions, one by one, are bringing Earth closer to peace. Useless Weaklings should just shut up and let me protect them!"

Q.13 Do you have any regrets?

Kotoko: No.

"I don't have a single regret."

Kotoko states that the reason she believes in the power of Milgram is because she has in fact killed someone. If we consider this statement along with her admission from earlier that she believes Milgram was made by someone who finds the current way of discerning sin unsound.

Someone whose goal she believes is,

"Determining the good and evil of the truth."

Then Kotoko may believe in the power of Milgram so fully from the beginning not just because it could discern she killed someone but because it could discern she was a sinner. Something she won't even admit to herself let alone consider.

I'm not only saying this because it aligns well with my attempt to distinguish between crime and sin when it comes to Kotoko or even because if Milgram discerning she's killed someone was the only reason she believed in it then anyone with internet access and an interest in press confrences would be someone she believed in. What she did isn't a government secret or anything there are news articles on it that she's seen and shown us.

Unless Milgram discovered something that even the public doesn't know. Something that Kotoko herself doesn't even want to look at.

The thing she's been shielding her eyes from since this all started.

“UNDER” Swaying to and fro? Laughable justice-

"Laugh and I can get to like myself."

"Shall we replace the poor soul, and the miserable delusion."

"I could be deluding myself with wishful thinking."

You are the-so-called "Sinner" that you despise so much.-"They’re still here, still here, it grates me."

Over the course of the series Kotoko has shown that to cope with and avoid self-reflecting she fixates on the errors of others to feel better about herself. This is pushed more to the forefront in her second trial song. However, this mindset of hers is also present within her first voice drama as well.

During that she consistently deflects and highlights issues with the others to the extent that Es has to remind her she's no different from them,

"How about it? Do you understand me as a person now?"

Can I say something?

"What is it?"

Kotoko, you are a murderer.

...

You are a prisoner of Milgram, and beyond doubt, a killer. You are the-so-called "Sinner" that you despise so much. Don't forget you yourself are in a position to be judged.

"Sigh... "A murderer". Is that so? Trying to remind me of my low position in the hierarchy of this place? Don't disappoint me. Well, maybe it doesn't matter."

Notice how she latches onto the term murderer over sinner. She knows what she did was a crime. She doesn't hesitate to admit it was murder because that's a technical term that describes the act of taking another living things life. That's fine, that's not a charcter flaw. It doesn't make her a bad or irredeemable human being.

She's not evil. A crime is a crime sure but not all crime is evil. She can still be a good person and a murderer. Because not every crime committed is a sin. Anyone who's human could understand why she felt this was the only way to move forward.

In fact,

So, you think the act of killing itself does not bear the concept of good or evil?

"Well, if you put it bluntly, it does mean that. There are times when it's your only option if you truly want to protect the weak. To hone in on the point, what I did was,

"An action taken out of necessity in order to protect the rights of myself and others in the face of an urgent and illegal crime."

You understand what that means, right?"

Criminal Law, Paragraph 36, Article 1. Justifiable Self-Defense.

"Looks like someone knows it by heart. So, in reality if my case were taken to judiciary, they too would see it as justifiable self-defense."

That is Japan's Judiciary Judgment. Me deciding whether or not to forgive you, Milgram deciding whether or not to forgive you... is a totally different matter.

I would like to take a moment to point out how Kotoko says if while knowing full and well she was taken to court for this already. Just another friendly reminder that the prisoners can lie outright, withhold information, and do whatever is within their power to make themselves look better through their voice dramas and interrogation questions.

Further emphasizing just how much Kotoko honestly believes her methods and the outcomes of them are not bad. Because was purposely vague about being taken to court in her first voice drama and continues to use incredibly subjective wording to her advantage making it even clearer what she does willfully disclose are simply beliefs she in no way believes are wrong.

Which is literally why several people in this prison over the course of trial two have made degrading remarks in regards to her sanity and intelligence.

Also, Kotoko weaponizing the legal system in this way further highlights that she is no different from the sinners she claims to despise earlier-

"Hurting the innocent through violence, taking from others, killing people... I can't stand it at all! There are too many cases of The Law being unable to deliver a verdict to sinning. Just by exploiting loopholes in the law, the sinners who have bullied and tortured the weak can still live out their lives unpunished! I want to change this world but I alone only have so much power!"

Despite saying all this earlier in her voice drama as soon as her morality is called into question by Es she falls back on the legal system that she doubts so much. To the point that Es has to remind her that the thing about Milgram she was just praising can also be used on her.

Kotoko to her own admission has never been persecuted and how she deals with Es during her trial one interrogation shows that.

Q.18 Have you ever personally been persecuted in the past?

Kotoko: I haven’t. But are you trying to say that if you haven’t had those experiences you can’t hate evildoers?

She consistently gushes over Milgram's system as though she's not at the mercy of it. Attempts to bargain with someone in a position of authority over her as though they are equals. Then reminds said authority figure of their own shortcomings to reaffirm her own necessity within this setting.

Q.17 Tell me what the merit is in working with you.

Kotoko: I will act according to your will. I can also act as your guard. Have you forgotten that you were about to die before?

Then blatantly questions if it matters whether Es disappoints her or not.

"Well, maybe it doesn't matter."

Without really elaborating on why she said that.

In contrast to her muddled feelings on Es she really only has praise to give to Milgram as a system throughout her first voice drama.

Kotoko...

"To be honest, I don't know your true intentions- And I don't know if you're a similar person to me with similar thoughts. In the end I could be deluding myself with wishful thinking. Even still, this place has multiple methods of deducing good from evil."

"To me, MILGRAM'S very nature has a kind of charm to it."

Notice how here she says the law is unable to deliver a verdict on sinning not on crime. This ties into her answer about why she began studying law those doubts/suspicions of hers. Because the law can't punish all sin.

This plays into Deep Cover a great deal too.

A lot of people got things twisted. Kotoko isn't judging crimes,

She's judging sins.

Sinners not Criminals.

Lick that sin and oppose punishment./Hate evil as the evil that it is.

This mindset of hers ties into what she says about the prisoners over the course of Deep Cover.

So let's go over them all one at a time.

“UNDER” Doltish, a codependency of the weak - “UNDER” Doltish “001 Parasite”.

Doltish

Meaning

Cambridge Dictionary: Stupid.

Merriam-Webster: As in stupid, not having or showing an ability to absorb ideas readily.

Weakness

Description quote

“I wanted to be a pitied and loved weakling.”

"The word I tried to say was “You’re unfair”, and those words thought how pitiful I am." - "If I tried and couldn’t say it, you would get angry at me and say “You’re hopeless.”." - "If only I could do what anyone else could do."

MILGRAM / Character Voice Trailer [Full Ver.]

"Then what should have I done instead?! Tell me! Tell me so even I can understand!"

But Gunsli ignorance isn't a sin. Yes you're right. Kotoko is implying that Haruka's ineptitude led to his sin.

The sin itself is in the title of Parasite.

Doltish “001 Parasite”

Haruka's sin in Kotoko's eyes is more than likely sloth. Viewing him as nothing more than a parasite that latches onto and feeds off the weak.

"A codependency of the weak."

"Parasite."

Something Milgram highlights well through his second trial glitched voice line.

"I'm sorry!! I'm sorry!!! Making you waste your life on someone like me...!!"

The series also alludes to this through his first song Weakness. Through having him constantly lament over how he wanted to be a pitied and loved weakling but he was in denial.

While having him go if only I could do the things other could over and over. Despite him repeating for all to here he wished he couldn't do those things. He wished he was a pitied and loved weakling that everyone would put their attention into.

He was in denial saying that he couldn't do it he wants to be the person that can't because that's the person who gets the most attention.

"The right future unfairly chose the wrong me."/ "If with one click, and I can reset everything- Can I be your favorite this time?"

I wanted to be a pitied and loved weakling. I was in denial, I was in denial- I just had to make sure.

Isn't odd how no one has really discussed Haruka's victim staying the same size and age in contrast to him being older in his second music video. I haven't really seen people discussing that so much as trying to focus on how his victim could be related to him. I think it's a really interesting tidbit though.

As it highlights Haruka's relationship with age well. It highlights how envious he is of animals and young children simply because since they are small, weak, and assumed to be ignorant they're doted on. They're given the attention that he wants.

Milgram emphasizes this through one of Futa's second interrogation questions. Futa displays concern for Haruka because he assumes he'd be hopeless without him but in trial two he flatly states this when asked about him-

Q.02 What do you think of Haruka?

Futa: I can’t afford to be worrying about other people at the moment Anyway, he’s not a little kid.

Mikoto even highlights that he's grown into a good man when Haruka wishes him a happy birthday.

The more capable Haruka is the less likely he is to get what he wants the only reason he's become comfortable with being competent is because he has Mu to fall back on for the doting he wants. Outside of that Haruka takes the easiest path to get the attention he wants regardless of if that attention is negative or positive.

Stating he will continue killing to be their good boy while also lamenting how long he'll have to do this as if he isn't choosing to do it-

"You praised me by saying “You’re crazy.” Thank you, I’ll do my best-How many more times do I have to do this so I can be human?" - "I will keep on killing to be a good boy."

He'll do anything to be this persons good boy except literally stop doing the thing they keep reprimanding him for doing. Complaining about his circumstances but not really putting much of an effort in to change them.

Sloth is not just pure laziness.

This is why I like the depiction of Sloth in Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood the best. Because it is the practice of doing something over and over not because it yields the best results but because it is simplest.

Even if the work is hard, even if one doesn't like it, they do it because their slothful and it's the only thing they can think of doing it's the closest thing they can reach because it's what they've always done and reflecting on why that is would be far more difficult than just continuing as is.

They dig the hole deeper because the only thing they know how to do is dig and they don't want to learn anything else. Sloth is beyond laziness it is a dedication to avoiding growth in all forms and where all sin spawns from.

However the prisoners themselves are a mix of sins just like any person would be. Meaning I could see Haruka's behavior as Sloth, but some might see it as envy.

Q.20 Did you hate the person you killed?

Haruka: I wonder if I did- I was jealous of them.

Both would be just as reasonable. Because people are complex.

Let's use Yuno as an example on the surface she'd appear to be lust- Even Kotoko can see that.

“UNDER” Obscene, pulling all cords to stay warm- “UNDER” Obscene “002 Slut”

Lust: "I want to be with you as many times as I can. Just the two of us, I feel a little tingle inside. Our love links us together. Just me alone, the warmth starts fading away. Let’s reload the warmth."-“Let’s just do it, please smile? Hooked up till the morning to this sweet “Umbilical Cable” Let’s just do it, please smile?"

However she also makes statements that could lean towards sloth as well. Such as her first glitched voiceline.

"I won't be bothered......."

This is also something Kotoko's lines about her call to attention through the lyric-

"Pulling all cords to stay warm."

Implying what Yuno has shown over the course of trial two- That she will cut people off if they can no longer provide the warmth she's seeking.

"Caressing me with your “Good girl”. Who needs your self-righteous pardon? I’m the one who chose, let you and you and you all in."- "So nauseating...so creepy...will you please disappear."

“Phew. Anyway!”

However, Yuno's narrative fits the moral and spiritual definition of the sin lust.

Even down to the point of bringing up adultery in her very first voice drama.

"For example, news outlets; they always make a big fuss about aldutery, inappropriate comments, immodesty, and so on right?"

"Isn't it odd? Even though you're a prison guard, you're about my age, aren't you? Or even a little younger? And then they start criticizing the people who make an appearance there. Don't you think it's all ridiculous? There's no end to how much people punish one another outside of the law."

Yuno's mindset from the beginning made it pretty clear that she wouldn't be a fan of Kotoko's mindset.

"That's right. You know those people who just want to convince themselves- So, they intrude on other people's affairs even though it's not their place? I despise them. That's what I was saying they only do that to make themselves feel better, don't they? Those people don't actually end up doing anything."

While working to foreshadow it and her own change of attitude during trial two.

Yuno...

"No matter how many chilling memories I had to go through, those people never gave me any warmth."

"Pulling all cords to stay warm."

Don't care.

"Look, look. It's impossible, isn't it? To break out into a cold sweat over a face that cute."

In the same way it would be just as easy to consider Mu Pride. Given her focus on being queen.

“UNDER” Incessant, this sorry round-robin of who’s queen- “UNDER” Incessant “004 Phony Queen”

Though there's also a bit of envy within Mu's character. More envy than pride in my opinion.

"If you want to betray from jealousy." - "Take more and more (honey) and devote to me."

"God gave me everything, everything is as I wish."

Phony Queen

But if you don't give me what you have too, then-

"You know what’s gonna happen ON YOU!"

"I’ve got EVERYTHING, everything is as I wish."

Envy is believing that when someone else receives good fortune than you're losing out-

"If I was gone, If I had just disappeared- I overheard, I found out. How much I’m not needed." - "Why won’t you stop hurting me? My heart is all dried up. My sorry spells must be wearing off."- "Just one more time before saying goodbye. I’m just kidding, please forget I said that."

Hence the hourglass which has been used to represent a reversal of fortune throughout Mu's songs. It doesn't matter how big or small it is if someone else is succeeding an envious person feels like they're failing. Some people going through that will do anything to feel like they're back on top again.

Incessant

Meanings

Collins Dictionary: An incessant process or activity is one that continues without stopping.

Merriam Webster: Continuing or following without interruption

Cambridge Dictionary: Never stopping, especially in an annoying or unpleasant way.

"My sorry spells must be wearing off." - "“I’m sorry” won’t reach anyone I hope it will someday." - "I don’t want tomorrow to come, I want to forget yesterday I was miserable, someone please help me."

"I want to feel “alive”, is it ok if I breathe?"

"I am always the drama (Phony) queen."

"The stabbing of the little devil's voice, counterattack being a suicide note- “I love YOU”."

"If you’re going to make me the villain. It’s ok to ignore me."/"Hey..why don't you listen to me...? I'm telling you... Hey...HEY, I'M TALKING TO YOU!"

Now onto the glutton-

“UNDER” Doomed, a peddling flower thief - “UNDER” Doomed “005 Dissection Pawn”

"Those cards of promise I discarded. Were they retribution for my incessant taking?"

"Killing, extracting, I still won’t see them again."

"“Throw down”, someone’s value- Cannot be the same as another. “Throw down” should choose between superiority or inferiority."

Proud, complacent in prosperity- They did not give any help to the poor and needy.

"After stabbing you with my words, the blood started to flow. And slowly stained my white. Hey, you remember what it feels like? The feeling to take away in order to give?"

"It becomes more and more diluted, it doesn’t have any flavor even if it’s chewed. If it’s not needed, I’m not interested."

“UNDER” Concealing, coveting, glass half empty or full? -“UNDER” Concealing “007 Deceiver”

Kazui come on and spell it out for them-

I don't think Star or I need to explain more than this picture with Kazui.

"Coveting"

Me: Kazui what are you doing there? Kazui: Oh, you know this old school thing called-coveting my neighbors spouse. Kotoko: ! Sin- SINNER!EVIL! Me: Oh, Kazui you- They all know you're married. You kidder! Almost had me there for a second you really did. Kazui: Ha, ha- Yeah... Kotoko: Hm... he's hiding something. Deceiver then.

"Only if your heart would change but that’s not possible."/ "Hey, so what if I said I liked-liked you, what would you do?"

Q.08 Which do you prioritise between logic and feelings?

Kazui: I put my feelings first and it ended badly. So I don’t want to act just based on feelings again.

Q.13 Who do you want to see right now?

Kazui: They won’t see me anymore.

"I just wanted to touch, to caress. I just wanted to be touched." - "I just got a little greedy."

"What I gave up a long time ago. Why is it questioning me now?"

There's as many apples in the world as there are fish in the sea but people tend to focus the most on the ones that got away.

"So it’s wrong? Oh shove that! INNOCENT, isn’t that right? Maybe, perhaps... or... could it come true... like It’s for the sake of true love, who wouldn’t lie for that?"- "Lick that sin and oppose punishment."

Q.08 What are your parent’s occupations?

Kotoko: They’re just the normal office worker and housewife. Did you want me to be born in with some unique circumstances?

Again as Kotoko told us in trial one, she's had a normal childhood, one where she didn't have to face any persecution.

This answer serves to further highlighted this. By showing off that she not only lived in a two-parent household as brought up during her trial one written interrogation,

Q.08   Tell us your family structure.

Kotoko: Grandmother, father, mother, older brother.

Yet, it shows that her parents are probably not financially well off. Kotoko is their youngest child by her own admission. Chances are her parents spoil her a great deal. Especially considering she's going to a top university and from question nine admits to only having begun working after taking leave from university.

She also admits to have started taking martial arts classes from a young age as well something that isn't free.

Q.04  When did you start learning martial arts?

Kotoko: When I was in primary school, I think? Without enough power, justice won’t be upheld.

All this on the salary of one office worker. We have a pretty good example of how office workers are doing from Mikoto. That's some love right there from Mr.Yuzuriha. Plus, Kotoko could just decide to take a leave from school out of the blue without really being reprimanded about it to the point that she was very blunt about dropping out at the beginning of her first voice drama.

The idea that she may be a bit spoiled and used to things going her way is even displayed by how she carries herself throughout her first voice drama. Not accepting that she herself is a prisoner and consistently attempting to distinguish herself from the others.

Now I was going to say maybe she was paying for some of these things through part time work or taking student loans who are we to say.

However again question nine throws the idea of it being paid through part time work right out the window. Since Kotoko is uncertain if what she was doing even counts as a part time job or not,

Q.09 Do you have any experience working part time?

Kotoko: After taking my absence of leave from university, I did some journalism here and there, so if it counts I guess it’s a part time.

She was probably doing freelance journalism. This would explain why she's uncertain as to if it would count as part time or not because at that point she'd be deciding her own hours. This would also explain how she knew who to go to in order to get the information she needed in Harrow.

However, it wouldn't change the fact that she started doing that after taking her leave from Law School. Meaning while she was going to school, she was solely a student. We don't know Kotoko's living situation, but she was probably still receiving support from her parents during that time.

So, her father's office worker salary not only provides a home life with no concerns for financial issues, but also allows Kotoko to partake in extracurricular activities and afford to not only study but attend law school. Along with the supplements she takes on a consistent basis and all the other frivolous stuff in that basement room we see her in.

Though when it comes to the stuff in the basement she could have gotten that from the pay received for her journalism work after she took her leave from college. It would also explain why she was looking over all those articles and it also implies that she may have wrote those articles herself.

Something that further complicates her case because that would just mean she never looked for any outside information she was just working off of her own work the whole time. Along with comments on said work.

The last two questions are sort of interesting because it creates this image of Kotoko being a spoiled youngest child with doting parents and possibly an overprotective big brother. The last one is just hilarious to consider because those articles that we see her referencing and looking over in Harrow could technically just be written by her now.

Further emphasizing the fact that she just draws her own conclusions and works off of those without asking anyone else.

Whelp with that I'm finally done and caught up until her next question comes out. I guess.

[darkonekrisrewrite]

Ochako is Different

(Current Chapter Spoilers) It’s a little early to make this but I had to.

‘If Toga still wants to talk to her, she’s willing to give her her own blood for the rest of her life.’

“I want to talk about love with you, himiko-chan!”

‘She won’t support everything she does from now on’

‘The world isn’t ideal (comfortable?) for people like her’

It’s almost exactly what I wanted, but it’s still totally perfect.

This Chapter is great for Toga and Ochako, and perfect for Ochako’s development.

In fact I’d say that this puts Ochako over the top of what’s been shown to be heroic in bnha.

Because while Ochako doesn’t really side with Toga fully, which is understandable from her point of view but she does pretty much say that Toga won’t be killed or locked up to rot because of the promise she makes to her.

This implies a long term plan/commitment and freedom, the first part obviously stated that neither Ochako or Toga herself want her death and the second part because there’s no way Toga would ever accept such a thing from inside a cage.

“Living Free” being an essential part of Toga’s character that wouldn’t just be ignored and doesn’t seem to be on Ochako’s viewpoint, with her saying:  ‘She won’t support everything she does from now on’

“From now on” implying Toga will have the freedom to choose.

This answer from a hero to a villain might really change things, or at least have the intent to change beginning here.

Ochako’s answer feels big enough for that, not only in her direct relationship with Toga but also on a much wider scale in her clearly stating that: The World isn’t ideal/comfortable for people like Toga.

This along with everything else she said makes her the best Hero in this series.

Even out of the Core Three Heroes.

Shoto Todoroki, a good, focused Hero, succeeding in everything he set out to do in bnha’s story, and also succeeded in becoming exactly the type of hero he wanted to be.

Be a Hero that puts others at ease? Nailed it.

Be like his friends who get mad and shed tears for others? Got it.

Protect his family and others? Even Dabi in a way? Total Victory.

A Perfect Score for Shoto, also his family, and all the innocent people that he saved.

But that’s it.

Shoto still hasn’t taken any kind of wider view on Dabi/Endeavor/his family or hero society, even though he’s had more than enough time to think about it.

He never came to the larger realization that: “Hmm, actually the fact that Endeavor was able to buy Mom like a broodmare, consult with doctors plainly about his intentions regarding his children, have one of them literally die, another be clearly scarred and his wife sent to a mental institution and yet despite all that…no one (Hero/Government/Civilian) says or does shit…that might be a problem too?”

Shoto is definitely a Hero; he’s just not quite seeing the big picture when he really needs to.

Deku on the other hand isn’t even close.

Because while he does inspire others, he has yet to actually help them himself.

Gentle criminal, Lady Nagant and Overhaul are all ‘Villains’ that Deku has interacted with and changed but, when talking about direct actions, he never helped any of them or even acknowledged their negative points about hero society other than giving a single platitude.

Gentle Criminal had heroic aspirations from the start, despite being hurt multiple times by hero society; he still chose to do the right thing.

Whether or not that really works out for him in the end is yet to be seen but he still did it, and on his own.

Deku never tried to help Gentle or even find out what happened to him or La Brava after their fight, despite emphasizing with him and their struggles.

Nagant was in some way, like Gentle, inspired by Deku, just in her case it was taken to a somewhat unbelievable degree.

“Extend a helping Hand” is not an answer to the fact that hero society was assassinating innocent people who threatened the status quo.

But Nagant is fighting on the hero side now so I guess it was answer enough for her.

But from a wider story perspective Deku didn’t address anything.

Overhaul is one of the darkest villains in the series, with what he did to Eri.

But Deku still made him a promise, to bring Overhaul to his ‘Father’ (figure) if he was willing to regret what he did.

He didn’t.

I mean, if we had jumped right into the next war in only a few moments after this point then I would understand Deku not having enough time to make good on his word but there was a lot of down time in-between.

Was Deku actually serious about the no-armed cripple Overhaul having to regret his actions before he was taken to see his comatose Father?

That’s kind of messed up when you really think about it.

Was Deku planning on doing it anyway, just at some undetermined point in the Future?

We don’t know, it was never brought up again.

It makes anything that Deku’s going to say to Shigaraki seem a bit Hollow because there’s no past foundation to hold up his word to, on a personal or societal level.

Vague promises on top of other promises that haven’t been fulfilled is not a good look for a Hero.

While it is true that this may change later, it may lack impact and believable commitment, coming in a bit late on Shoto’s part and with Deku’s loyalty to hero society at odds with everything Shigaraki is.

But Ochako isn’t like that.

Ochako

She recognized that there was a problem (though eventually) after seeing clear signs of it and looked at everything involved.

Toga’s Quirk and her tears, how she felt about love and the world around her.

Also with her experience in dealing with the “innocent” people at UA high and how they treated Deku.

Have to believe that too had an effect on her decision and reasoning to try to understand Toga, in how she was made a villain currently.

She may not really understand Toga in everything, but Ochako is still saying all the right things, addressing what she knows about Toga and how society has treated her.

No other hero has done that yet and followed through.

Because Ochako didn’t just say: “You have a point, but you know morality.” Then try to punch Toga in the face or overpower her into submission.

She said: “You have a point, but you know morality, so I will personally help you in the way you need.”

Immediately trying to do just that and saying she’ll continue to in the future.

‘If Toga still wants to talk to her, she’s willing to give her her (Ochako’s) own blood for the rest of her life.’

That’s a Hero. And what a real Hero would do.

It really was just that simple of someone offering her Blood, that specific someone showing that they cared and telling Toga that she wasn’t a monster or a deviant.

And Toga accepting Ochako’s feelings would make sense as this is everything she ever wanted-

BUT-

The only hang up is how Ochako would then deal with Hero Society after this, because they are definitely not going to be on board with her choice, even though it’s part of the only option/path forward that could save their world.

And with the inherent flaws/corruption in the hero system and the Quirk Singularity, Ochako’s choice is undeniably the start of the only path that could save bnha’s world.

So yeah Ochako is actually doing Amazing so far.

[scoobydoodean]

Sam's worries about his powers in 1.14—that some series of unknown unspeakable events could lead him to suddenly transform into a killer and he wouldn't be able to choose anything else is one of the first illustrations of one the primary distinctions between Sam and Dean's worldviews in seasons 1-5. Sam believes in fate and destiny and "Whatever details you alter, you will always end up here" to an extent (at least when it comes to his own life) and Dean... does not. Sam believes people can fully choose your choices for you by influencing the circumstances around your life and this is inescapable. You are a rat in a maze and the only way out is the one path the invisible hand supplies.

Dean accepts the premise that someone might toss you in a maze but believes you can always chew through the enclosure—and sometimes he also is able to look at the path and say, "Dude this is not a maze. You could go this way or that way, and yeah—if you go THAT way, things are going to go bad, but you don't HAVE to go that way. You could go THIS way and you'd get be able to get out of here. Don't you see this other path? It's literally right here."

Dean thinks the concept of fate is bullshit. He believes causality can be subverted. He doesn't believe in destiny, or God's plan (4.22), or hunting being something he was "meant" to do (2.10). He calls his family "Team Free Will" and then "Team Free Will 2.0".

Sam worries by 1.14 that causality is inescapable—that the invisible hand of demons will eventually turn him into a murderer—and Dean says "Nah." Dean says, "You have me." In 2.14 Dean says, "No one can control you but you" and "We'll figure this out", "There's gotta be a way" and "If it's the last thing I do, I'm gonna save you."

And through that enduring spirit (in spite of evidence presented by friends and villains alike suggesting the contrary—challenging his view), Dean becomes the one person who is not allowed to lose faith—who is fiercely rebuffed for falling into a pit of despair (5.18)... because he represents the concept that one can endure—the fact that what they deal with every single day is not fate but causality no matter how bad a hopless it looks—and causality can be subverted.

The circumstances of your life frame you and illustrate you and explain your hangups but they don't force your hand or justify every act committed due to the emotions invoked. Dean might actually believe this too fiercely when it comes to himself—assigning himself culpability for things that he legitimately is not responsible for or could not prevent. Sam tends to do... the opposite. "I have to become ruthless because of you. You're going to leave me here all alone" (3.09). "I ran away with Ruby in the first place because of you [subtext: a dead guy] bossing me around" (5.05). "I have to leave Dad for dead and kill us all in the name of revenge because you came and got me at school so this is your fault, and revenge is what our family does and falling into the despair of revenge is what Dad did so I am destined to follow in his steps as his son" (1.22). "Aren't you worried some horrible thing will happen to me and I'll suddenly become a murderer and I won't be able to stop—it won't be my choice the circumstances of my life will have lead me there and falling into that despair and rage will be the only option left to me (1.14)".

[bbygirl-aemond]

(Hi bf) Can you explain what you mean that Daemon sees Viserys as Alicents victim

(he says hi. his ego is growing dangerously quickly)

excellent question! i'm sure we've all kind of seen this in the show, but this is a good opportunity for me to delve into the psychology behind WHY daemon's clinging to this idea so irrationally.

i've talked in a few recent posts about how daemon sees the weakening of the targaryen bloodline as THE biggest threat to his family's safety, because it puts them in danger of losing their dragons and being overthrown/killed. so in daemon's mind, a decision that weakens the bloodline is a decision that directly endangers his entire family. so let's take a look at how this would impact daemon's understanding of viserys's two options for remarriage:

we have laena velaryon, who has a decent amount of targaryen blood (about 11%) and is a velaryon, so the rest of her lineage is still fully valyrian at least. the velaryons are a house the targaryens have intermarried with before, so he views his house as already committed to them. she's the daughter of a wealthy and powerful lord. and laena at twelve has already claimed vhagar, the biggest and most powerful dragon in the world.

and we have alicent hightower, who has 0% targaryen blood and no valyrian background. she's the daughter of a second son. she isn't and will never be a dragonrider. and she's from house hightower, which is closely tied with the faith of the seven and is pretty against a lot of aspects of valyrian culture. the targaryens also don't have an existing relationship or history of intermarriage with house hightower.

so it's completely inconceivable to daemon that viserys would choose alicent. in his mind, laena is a woman that house targaryen NEEDS to marry asap in order to (1) strengthen the blood, (2) keep their house as independent and tied to as few other houses as possible, and (3) bring vhagar under the targaryen's domain. this is actually why i think he killed rhea royce- because SOMEONE needed to marry laena, and if it wasn't going to be viserys, then it had to be daemon, for their family's sake.

this has so far been a very practical take on bloodlines, but there's also a much more emotional component to daemon's inability to accept viserys's decision. we know that daemon loves viserys and has this deep-seated need to feel valued and wanted by him. this also colors his ideas of valyrian supremacy; he feels they are a way for him to have kinship with his brother. viserys can deny him affection, but he can't deny their blood. so the idea that viserys is dismissing the significance of their bloodline feels not just like a dumb decision, but like an outright rejection of the ONE part of daemon he thought was safe from rejection.

also, if daemon is duty-bound to marry laena, it means he has to deny himself rhaenyra, who is the one he really wants to be with. this is why we see him so angry at rhaenyra's wedding; both of them want to be together, but they have to marry other people for their family's sake, specifically because viserys refused to do so. daemon is just straight up unable to deal with any of this emotionally, so he turns to denial as a way to protect himself from the pain of rejection.

to recap: daemon has deep-seated pragmatic and emotional reasons for having difficulty accepting that viserys married alicent instead of laena. it's much easier for him to make alicent into a villain, ignoring all of the facts about the situation (she was a child, she had no power in this situation, etc.), than it is to think that viserys knew the decision endangered their family and would make daemon and rhaenyra miserable and did it anyways. and this colors his perception of alicent for the entire rest of his life. it's why he goes out of his way to find fault with her: mocking her for the tapestries and then insulting her for removing them, accusing her of poisoning viserys when she dedicated her entire life to being his caretaker while daemyra abandoned him to fuck around at dragonstone.

alicent can do no right in daemon's eyes, because he needs to maintain the belief that viserys can do no wrong.

[msviolacea]

A not-so-short word vomit on a complaint I saw about 6.3. It was just a couple of people, so this is definitely not a “why is fandom like this” sort of thing, but the conversation I saw just made me think and I don’t have the time or energy to engage in a direct back and forth on Discord right now. So, I word vomit here, as one does.

I saw a thing the other day (here? Twitter? who knows, time is an illusion and brain cells are in short supply) that asked if you’re the kind of person who came to FFXIV from Dragon Age versus ... somewhere else. I am obviously from the Dragon Age side of things. And if there’s one thing DA fandom taught me, it’s that a game suffers when all players are expected to know what happens in ancillary non-video game materials in order to fully appreciate the story. Thus, I come down hard on the side of “what the game itself says is exactly what the characters should be expected to know and reference.” 

And the FFXIV spoilers begin below. Assume spoilers for everything through 6.3 here. 

So 6.3 - and 6.2 to a lesser extent, thanks to Zero - is full of references to Zenos and, quite frankly, what a terrible person he was. And that’s perfectly understandable, given what everyone knows about him in game. (And even what we know about him out of game, but more on the nuance of that later.) Yes, our WoL knows that he made one big gesture at the end of his life that helped us save the world. That’s great! But after that, he immediately challenged us to a fight and very nearly killed us - would have killed us if not for semi-divine intervention. Because in the end, he didn’t come to the end of the universe because he’d discovered a conscience. He came because he was a deeply selfish man who only cared about getting One Perfect Fight, and Alisaie’s words stuck in his head only to the point of “well if I do a thing for them, they’ll do a thing for me.” He only progressed to the point of understanding equivalent exchange in a similar way to the voidsent of the 13th.

That may have been vaguely fine for a character in another position, but he was supposedly running a country. Whether he wanted that is something else entirely, and we’ll get to a bit of Emet Selch and his crimes in a bit, but regardless of what he wanted, he had an obligation, and he failed it entirely - he refused to even consider it. And an entire nation suffered for his lack of care. That was one of the points of this patch. We met Zero in 6.2, learned that she’d been attached to Zenos against her will. That was mostly background to the rest of the dragon and void stuff in that patch, but in this patch, we bring her to Garlemald, where she sees more of the consequences of Zenos’s selfishness, outside of her own situation. And after observing us, our friends, and the people of Garlemald trying their best to survive together, she shows that she can choose something different - that despite the many, many years of darkness and selfishness she’s had to survive in the 13th, she has the capacity to desire something different. 

Maybe Zenos would have displayed that same capacity if he’d had more time. But that wasn’t the story this game was telling. Not every character is going to get the same opportunities. 

Not every villain gets to be redeemed. 

I understand that we have a relatively robust history of redeemed villains in this game, compared to others of its kind. But that’s been a mixed bag. Emet Selch is one of the best examples of villains in general in the video game genre - the game itself showed exactly why he was the way he was, without excusing the atrocities that he committed along the way. (Fandom is a different story on the excusing - I am deeply uncomfortable with the “but he didn’t see humans as equals” argument being used in earnest - but that’s a different post.) And then they gave us an opportunity to see who he was before the sundering, before the trauma, and that once his full memory was restored and he had the opportunity to understand the full scope of what happened, he would gladly (though with characteristic grumbling) help us put the world to rights before his truly final curtain call. 

Zenos did not have the same narrative opportunities. If that disappoints you, I understand. But it’s not a failure of the game, it’s just a narrative decision. 

(Briefly - Gaius is a very, VERY different story, and one that I think is actually a failure of the game’s narrative. Gaius Baelsar should have remained dead, and the person we met in the Burn should have been an entirely different Garlean leader who defected and decided to help us. That one change would have saved that entire storyline.)

But, Zenos. We, as players, have the opportunity to read some ancillary materials to understand more about him. Side stories, lore books - we find he was neglected as a child, raised by narcissists and molded to be the person he was, to a certain extent. We can sympathize, we can understand the narrative threads that denied him a real chance at being a good person. But do not confuse what we the players know - or even the space the game writers give us to play with our headcanons - with the knowledge and opinions the characters should reasonably be expected to express in in-game dialogue. 

What does the Warrior of Light know about Zenos in game, through actual in-game sources? He’s the great-grandson of Solus/Emet, his father was a xenophobic zealot, he gave zero shits about anything other than fighting and let a lot of really shitty people do his governing for him, he killed a ton of people and threatened many, many more, the Ascians brought him back to life and as soon as he got his body back, he allied with Fandaniel and let a civil war turn Garlemald into a smoking crater just so they could get to Zodiark, and when Fandaniel used Zodiark for his own purposes, he just shrugged and went wandering on his own because nothing in Garlemald was any use to him anymore. That’s pretty much it. Yes, he came to our aid at the moment we needed it most, but he did so for his own ends, and we gave him what he wanted. You can headcanon the reason why your WoL did so, but that doesn’t change the basic facts we know from in-game sources. 

Your WoL doesn’t canonically know anything about his childhood. And, quite frankly, even if they did, do you think it would be reasonable to “well actually” Zero and the Garleans in dialogue at this point? 

Zenos is a tragedy. Zenos also caused tragedy, and those two concepts can coexist in our minds as players. But in-game characters can’t be expected to view Zenos in a sympathetic light, not even our WoL. External lore sources are not in-game lore. Our headcanons are not in-game lore. The writers cannot avoid every single instance of our dialogue possibly deviating from our headcanons, not without eliminating dialogue entirely. 

(There’s an ancillary topic here, about how the current shape of the world makes it very inadvisable for writers who give a shit about society to gloss over atrocities committed by a rich ogliarch in their narrative, no matter what players headcanon about that character, but that’s an aside to the points I’m making. But while I’m all in for villain-fucking and blorbo-appreciation in a fannish space, fandom is a totally different space than canon.) 

In the end, Zenos died a villain. A complicated, interesting one who made a fascinating decision at the end of his life, but a villain nonetheless. We can do whatever we want with him in fandom - that’s what fanworks are for. And we can be disappointed that the canon narrative doesn’t share our points of view. But we should also understand that there are very good reasons for those POVs, and that not sharing our POV is not a failure of the narrative. 

[tobiasdrake]

Villain Breakdown: Gorr the God-Butcher

There's really only one major problem I have with Gorr: This movie thinks he's an archnemesis for Thor. In the end, it tries to relate Thor's love for Jane to Gorr's love for his daughter. To put Thor and Gorr on equal footing, comparing their grief and loss.

But Gorr isn't comparable to Thor. He's comparable to Jane, and that's where the much stronger throughline lies. This movie has a powerful and profound villain but it misses what it has on its hands due to its insistence on retaining Thor as its protagonist.

At the start of the film, Jane and Gorr are two people in similar circumstances. Gorr's lost his wife, his children, his people. Jane's facing impending mortality from incurable cancer. Both Jane and Gorr, seeking salvation, turn to their gods for aid and find only disappointment.

Gorr and Jane both find salvation in a powerful godly artifact that gives them strength and purpose, but it's a strength and purpose twisted from what they wanted. Gorr finds the Necrosword which turns him to war against gods, while Jane finds Mjolnir which turns her to war in the gods' service - And both of their artifacts, rather than truly saving them, are killing them.

And yet despite their similarities, they couldn't be farther apart from one another. Gorr seeks genocide while Jane seeks to help people. And that key, crucial difference? It's not really on them. They are what their gods made of them.

The reason Jane is better than Gorr is simply because Jane's god is better than Gorr's. Jane's god is compassionate. He cannot save her from death but he cares that she lived. In the end, she gives her life freely in faith and service to her god. Thus she is granted the eternal reward that Rapu mocked Gorr for believing in, because hers is a god worth dying for.

Gorr lived his entire life in faith, while Jane only found faith later in life. But Jane's faith was rewarded where Gorr's was punished. Not because Jane was a better faithful than Gorr but because hers was a better god than his. Because gods have a responsibility to their people just as much as their people have a responsibility to them.

This is the throughline that makes Gorr work. But the movie doesn't really seem to understand what it has here. It's too busy talking about Thor's feelings and Thor's insecurities and the grief and loss that Thor shares with Gorr that it doesn't really understand that Thor isn't the character we should be hearing from on this.

It's a powerful moment in the end when Gorr chooses faith, chooses to trust in Jane's god to look after his daughter, who his own god let die. A choice he makes because he's inspired by the relationship between Jane and Thor. Even though he's been burned by faith before, Jane is able to inspire Gorr to believe again in something new.

It just isn't able to fully land, because the film's committed to treating Jane as a secondary character rather than the protagonist of this conflict that should rightly be hers. Which limits both the depth of this conflict itself and the complexity that Gorr is able to express.

Gorr has been criticized by many for being another shallow one-note bad guy like Ronan or Hela. But I don't think that's actually his fault. Gorr isn't a shallow villain. He was simply denied a proper heroic rival to bring out the things that make him interesting.

[esther-dot]

Lyanna and Elia death actually hit the readers with emotions. Both were innocent who died because of others actions. We get to know about them more from their close families and friends and we sympathize with them. The way Ned, Oberyn and Doran mourn them leaves impact. Ned tore down the tower of Joy and commit treason to protect Jon. Oberyn risk his own life to seek justice for his sister. Yet same can't be said about Rhaegar because the people and his family has no real connection or emotions with him. Viserys never really told Dany about Rhaegar being a brother. Dany is obsessed with the idea of Rhaegar who she don't know. Jon Con who is obsessed with him had no real connection with him.

(prev ask)

They really do! Martin did a very good job conveying horror and grief over their fates. I won’t insert the quote about Elia, it’s so deeply disturbing, and the image of her babies before the throne… devastating. Everyone talks about Ned's trauma for a reason, even though we're books past his last breath, his memories of Lyanna's death, his inner torment, they're haunting.

Tbh, I'm gonna happily hate on Rhaegar regardless of where Martin takes things, so I have to really work to be unbiased. But, when I look at certain elements that pop up in Jon’s chapters that are meant to reach back into pre-canon and bring Rhaegar into the story, I’ve evolved how I read it, and don’t think Martin was writing Rhaegar as a sadistic fuck. I have to think, given the contradictory pictures we're given, that Martin is writing about what he repeatedly has written about. What do we do with people who are several things, different things, all at once?

The Hound saves Sansa, then threatens her life. Tyrion is a villain who chooses to not have sex with Sansa because he can't ignore her fear. Jon sees Ygritte weep over a song and the fate of giants, smile at him, and then callously murder an innocent man before nearly killing Jon. Martin believes in what I’ve called “expansive” characterization. They characters are multifaceted not to make us ignore one side, but to ask us to develop our ability to feel fear and compassion, to feel warmth and a chill, to find things to love and hate in the same place.

I admire that and think it's crucial not only to fully enter the characters' worlds and POV, but to be able to embrace the anti war theme. The books have so much more meaning when I accept that I love Ned, I believe the Westerosi were right to overthrow the Targs, but from Dany’s perspective, she is right to despise Starks. Her family was killed. To have Targs and Starks alike think of what Elia’s babies suffered with horror, even while they are on opposing sides of the war, that’s the truth about the war, isn't it? What we're meant to find at the heart of it all? It is tragedy for everyone. That’s what makes the series anti-war, it has to avoid glorifying violence, not just say it’s sad to lose—it must still be awful to win. When Maester Aemon mourns the death of his family, desperately wants to save Daenerys, I am meant to feel the tragedy in this, listen to the pain on both sides.

(I mean, I'm hardcore anti targ and all they represent, but I'm talking about what I believe Martin ideally wants)

As much as I believe Jon will have strong negative feelings about Rhaegar's choices, horror even, I can't imagine that Martin will write Jon's feelings as entirely one-note. He's gonna introduce some conflict, he always does. We don't yet know what that might be, but when I was rereading the Mance meeting, saw how Mance and Jaime both had a connection to Jon's central struggle, realized how the Rhaegar-esque aspect of Mance was associating Rhaegar to it all...well, I did entertain the thought that Rhaegar's actions can be read as a parallel to Jon's theme:

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. (AGOT, Jon VIII)

Obviously, this is primarily about Jon, I expect it to play out in Jon’s story, but it does sound Rhaegar-esque. Jon might have been that baby to Rhaegar.

That would mean we condemn him for how he failed Elia and the babies, his kingdom, that Jon would still that horror, but would prevent Jon from being able to completely despise the man, as he too has felt torn between vows and love.

(insert my caveats re: prophecy baby, being very much at peace with Rhaegar bleeding out etc)

The pain comes in with complexity, and I think that’s what Martin wants even if I’m personally unmoved by it.

[cherrytimemachine]

always felt Atomizer's death was stupid as hell. I mean Getaway's already killed dozens of people for trival reasons, he won't hesistate to murder you for betraying him. dumbass

I honestly hate the direction they took Getaway in. I felt bad for Atomizer the whole time he had to deal with this fucker. I think the the point where it got super over the top evil for me was when Getaway went out of his way to verbally berate Riptide right before trying to kill him just for the sake of it. And Atomizer, loyal Atomizer, he looked at Getaway and told him that what he’d done was excessive. Getaway could’ve been a much better villain, but I don’t fully blame Jro for that since Hasbro cut the length of their story. They had planned a season 3 and 4, but Hasbro gave them a limit they had to follow. Hasbro cutting production time for their shows or cutting corners for toy sales at the expense of the creators they hired seems to be a recurring theme the more I learn about them.

Give me a reasonable conflict that still tests the moral limits Atomizer is willing to accept for supporting Getaway. They could’ve kept Froid and Sunder in the mix, but instead of Getaway being outwardly evil out of nowhere, Froid encourages him to make harmful decisions and choices. Froid is intrigued by the thought processes and minds of people like Sunder, who commit horrible crimes, so why wouldn’t he try and do a social experiment where he pushes someone to the brink of becoming a worse person to test how the mind responds under pressure from an influence? Have Froid release Sunder himself, have Sunder threaten Getaway and his crew if he didn’t give in to their demands. I imagine it like Pharma’s situation with Tarn, but we get to see it in action. There is potential to seeing Getaway breaking behind the scenes with the added inclusion of Atomizer as someone who’s trying to help his friend, but Getaway pushes him away so he doesn’t get involved.

At one point he’s faced with the choice of killing Atomizer or sparing him, and Getaway has to choose whether to kill one or let them all die. They hold singular lives above his head and make him feed Sunder’s hunger as a means of saving the many for the sacrifice of he one. Sunder torments Getaway, tells him to kill Atomizer, and Getaway has to come to terms with how far he’s been strung up by these people. Because above all, he’s afraid of dying if he refuses, so he complies out of fear for his own life and others like him. That point would tie back in really nicely to his experience watching his fellow MTOs die during the battle of Corcapsia and the trauma responses that led him to where he is now.

He had such understandable motives as a villain, and that’s something I loved about him when I read MTMTE. They totally squashed that in Lost Light and I’m still unhappy about it.

[dimitrscu]

You're right about Gideon. His dialogue on Miquella is 90% about him being missing. What's your take on Miquella btw?

Don't quote me on this, but apparently Millicent in JP says, "The caution she abandoned to match R*dahn." Maybe this means Malenia bloomed deliberately. Or maybe it means her choosing to focus on fighting him instead of resisting the rot. Thus, risking a bloom. Assuming the trailer plays out in real-time, the Aeonia forms so quickly it might've caught Malenia off guard. Honestly, there's so much to discuss. But like you said, it's difficult to do that. People would rather bend over backwards to invent copium takes than admit the Big Warrior Dude couldn't/didn't defeat the gangly sickly lady. I've seen someone say he actually won because she didn't kill him.

Other than the points you've made, the funny thing about being mad at Malenia for attacking us is uh.. we're not framed as the good guys here. The Tarnished obtains the medallions via the Albinaurics, listens to Albus lament how they can't journey to the sanctuary, and then commits murder at said sanctuary anyway. Then when we kill Loretta, a mandatory boss before Malenia, the game tells us that she's here as she thinks the Haligtree is a safe haven. Basically in our journey to kill Malenia, we betray the trust of the needy and trample on what they think is their hope.

I genuinely love Miquella and hope we get to learn more about him in the DLC. He’s a character that I definitely feel has more going on than people may realise. I don’t subscribe to these theories of him being secretly evil though and I honestly can’t stand all these takes of him being a Griffith knock off. Seriously these guys see ‘Guy In Egg’ and go “Holy shit just like the hit manga Berserk!!” Like I get that’s where Miyazaki gets some of his inspiration from but that doesn’t mean every damn thing needs to be a Berserk reference lmao

Anyway, to me Miquella comes across as someone who genuinely has good intentions. A lot of this is plain to see and I think trying to look for the worst in him is such a reach at times. I don’t imagine Miquella to be this perfect saint by any means, but trying to make out that he’s potentially worse than any of the others is something I just can’t get behind. It’s like people are waiting for it to turn out like “Haha! He was actually the secret villain all along!” Folks love going on about how there’s no outright good and bad in this world and they love throwing around words like morally grey, but for some reason with Miquella they want him to be the worst shit in the lands between. We know he rejected the Golden Order primarily because they couldn’t (or wouldn’t?) help Malenia, but at the same time he goes on to build this sanctuary for those turned away by the Erdtree. He was essentially offered everything on a silver platter and still turned them down because to him they weren’t doing enough. For Malenia and for others who are considered ‘different’ by the order’s standards. They may be demigods but considering so are the omen twins and look at how they are treated, it’s obvious anyone who doesn’t fit into this Perfect Order is either considered not worth protecting or is wiped out. Miquella on the other hand obviously cares enough to want to change things. The idea some people have that he brainwashes his followers, again doesn’t quite sit right with me. We still don’t fully know what Miquella’s plans are and to me at least he doesn’t seem like he’s hell bent on conquering. Why would he need to brainwash and manipulate his followers though realistically? Unless it turns out that their affection and worship is how he gains his strength (which to me sounds stupid), why would he need to force people to follow him? But then again people say the same thing about Malenia with the cleanrot knights in that she infects them with rot and they are nothing more than braindead zombies who follow her. Even though it says they vowed to fight alongside her despite the inevitable putrefaction of their flesh, and that they accepted their fate. But going back to Miquella, I’ve seen this argument that because the Haligtree is hard to find that must mean he didn’t want people to find it.

Yeah, potential enemies.

You can’t just position a sanctuary like the Haligtree in the middle of the continent with big neon lights pointing at it saying “Come here if you’re being oppressed by that ugly ass tree over there.” And expect everyone to be fine with it. The place is already quite vulnerable as it is. It’s small and it’s situated below a cliff. If anyone were to attack it from the land I doubt they would last long. Keeping the Haligtree location secret is important if they wish to keep it, and it’s inhabitants, from harm. This is why I like to believe there were people, like Loretta, who knew of the location and would set out to help guide those in need.

About the bloom in Caelid though, I personally do think she did bloom intentionally. I think she made the conscious decision, however hard it may have been, to do something to break the tie. The fact she was the one to take the initiative doesn’t mean she was losing. It just means she had the conviction to actually do something. I do think however that the rot god could have possibly used this whole situation to it’s advantage and spread the rot throughout Caelid. Sensing that Malenia was weakened from the fight and her will to hold back the rot being at a low point, it may well have seized the opportunity to act through her. I don’t necessarily think Malenia intended to destroy the region, only that she wanted to isolate it to her enemy. With all that we’ve learnt about her and how she hates the rot and wants rid of it, I can’t imagine she would take pleasure in spreading it around the world. But of course all this was still a great risk and she couldn’t have know exactly how bad the outcome would be.

I agree with what you said about the tarnished. When you look at it we really aren’t framed as a good person throughout our journey. Whatever peoples personal headcanons are for their own character, the player character is kind of an asshole. We’re not even supposed to be from these lands and yet when we’re told by some random person to go kill everything just so we can become king of the ashes we gladly do it. There are some bosses in the game that I don’t even know why we fight. Malenia being one of them. It’s not even like we need her rune as we only need two to enter the capital and then they are never mentioned again. If Malenia were someone important in our quest you could understand going through all the hassle to get to her, but in the end we kill her for what? Her sword and her outfit? I know people go and fight her for the challenge and all that, it’s just lore wise there’s never really any need to go to the Haligtree.

Again thank you anon for allowing me to rant, and once again I’m sorry I take so long to reply!

[thefirstpaleontologist]

The Boys s3e8 spoilers

okay on the one hand

I’m very proud of Hughie for reconciling with Annie.

He finally realised his true strength doesn’t come from tempV and having superpowers.

This episode reiterated that Annie doesn’t need saving, but she did need help. That she doesn’t need Hughie to save her, she just needs him. And finally we see Hughie realise that and deliver in the scene where instead of taking tempV and giving himself brain damage, he chooses to up the lights and supply Annie with more power.

It calls back to every moment Hughie has used his intelligence and tech skills to assist The Boys as he has been doing since the start.

Beyond this we the audience also know that Hughies real power in The Boys is his empathy. His people skills. His commitment to treating supes like people and everyone with decency. The fact he was delegated to evacuate the tower and therefore in charge of minimising civilian casualties is definitely tied into this.

but on the other hand

I was really enjoying angry fucked up Hughie 😭

low key wanted him to have a bit of a villain arc

Hughie deserved another chance to fight homelander. I know that that’s Butchers fight but still. Guess I’ll just have to go rewatch herogasm

does this mean we’ll never get to see Hughie teleport with Homelander or Soldier Boy or Butcher? 💀 I know it would have contributed nothing to the plot but it would have been so funny

but fr Hughie deserves to be angry with everything that’s happened. If s4 decides to have a plot line dedicated to Victoria Neuman then I really think Hughie will be front and centre to it. He worked with her for a year. He thought they were friends. So he’s definitely gonna have a bone to pick with her

Okay other than that

in season 4 I have some predictions of stuff we’ll get to see or that I would just like to see:

Hughies apologised to Annie for going low-key insane with power but he’ll prob need to repair his relationships with Kimiko, Frenchie and MM. there wasn’t really any time for in ep8 but I think it’s important to show these bonds being mended

we need to see Hughie and Kimiko have some kind of reconciliation. I know kimiko really doesn’t seemed fussed over nearly dying etc but Hughie definitely needs to realise that being on a power trip and ignoring her bleeding out in the back of the van was fucked up.

butcher and Hughie definitely need to sit down and talk. so many issues. butcher seeing Hughie as being like Lenny is sweet but kinda unhealthy. Hughie isn’t Lenny and that kind of expectation for him to live up to will create problems whenever he falls short of it

Hughie talked more about his mum this season and I really want to know why she left and get some more back story

I think I’m s4 we will end up with A-Train finally defecting from vaught and homelander. Like officially. All the dominoes are already there in place (his brother giving him a wake up call, the way homelander treats him etc)

Fully expecting the Deep to full on loose it. He’s on his own except for homelander now who obviously doesn’t care about him at all. would be surprised if he ends up dead next season either through his own self destructive behaviour or at homelanders hand

Homelander now knows he can get away with murdering an innocent civilian in broad day light in front of a crowd of people and not only face no repercussions but literally be cheered on so I just know he’s going to be completely unbearable now

It’ll be interesting to see Victoria Neuman juggle her reputation and VP claim to protect everyone regardless of political opinions alongside her deal with Homelander who has shown himself to have zero guilt over killing his political opposition

[bigskydreaming]

Part of why I harp on about Last Laugh all the time is because its not just about Dick killing the Joker which is what Jason always wanted someone to do for him, to know that he mattered enough for that......but also when you erase Last Laugh or discard it because it just doesn’t fit into your perception of the characters as fanon has dictated, like.......another huge factor of the Jason-Bruce-Dick dynamic falls by the wayside as well.

And that’s how Jason’s not only always been convinced that Bruce would kill to avenge Dick’s death.....but in ADDITION, Jason has always been convinced that Bruce would be more forgiving of the kinds of actions Jason has taken, aka murder, if Dick had been the one doing it.

Because see....the other thing Last Laugh showed aside from Dick’s feelings about Jason’s death......is that Bruce very much was NOT okay with what Dick had done. Bruce always said he brought back the Joker because he knew Dick wouldn’t be able to live with having done that, but IMO it was NEVER about what Dick could or couldn’t live with, it was about what BRUCE could live with Dick having done.

Because regardless of the Joker being resuscitated.....Dick was still keenly aware of the fact that he’d still beaten him to death first. Jason’s resurrection, Dick being revived after his own death, those never erased the impact of their actual deaths, rendered them moot, and neither did resuscitating the Joker. If Jason died and it matters? Coming back doesn’t make that unmatter. If Dick only was dead for a couple minutes tops, that doesn’t mean Luthor DIDN’T kill him and he wasn’t still dead; he’d still actually died.

The same is true of the Joker’s death, no matter how short-lived it was. Dick still DID it. Dick was still very cognizant of that. Dick actually struggled with this for a number of issues, though I don’t think that really was about regretting what he’d done so much as that he’d let the Joker ‘win’.....AND it was ALSO about how Bruce saw him now.

And IMO you can’t argue that Bruce only resuscitated the Joker for DICK’S sake and because DICK couldn’t live with that.....when Bruce notably, distinctly, NEVER EVER EVER actually....engaged Dick on the topic of what he’d done there. 

Ever. 

He went back to Gotham and never made a single appearance to help Dick process things, even when others like Wally showed up in Bludhaven while Dick was holing himself away from the world. Bruce and Dick literally NEVER spoke of it again. Because Bruce wasn’t okay with what Dick had done. He didn’t know how to forgive him or look past it, so he basically did everything in his power to make it so it basically never happened. 

And the difference with UTRH is....when Jason showed up, by the time Bruce knew it was him, pretending Jason hadn’t done the things that Jason wasn’t the least bit ashamed of was never actually even an option.

So I don’t actually think Bruce is any more inclined to forgive Dick of things like murder because its Dick.....I think Bruce had to force+quit all thoughts of Dick actually killing, in order to preserve his relationship with Dick. 

(Even though his relationship with Dick still suffered, because Dick was still keenly aware that Bruce was not okay with what he’d done, and like, not trying to understand WHY Dick had done it or that he was actually maybe okay with having done it albeit outside of the context of it having played into what the Joker wanted him to do. Like, Dick after Last Laugh still very much angsted about Bruce’s assessment of him after it, and did need that reassurance that Bruce still loved him and forgave him....and what Bruce actually gave him is “I’ll agree to never reference it as having happened and look past it for the sake of our relationship” which is very much NOT the same thing. And with, as I’ve also gone into before, this no doubt being HUGELY central to why Dick was so lost and shaken by his fears of having let Bruce down AGAIN by letting Blockbuster die. These things are absolutely connected.)

The flip side of this is that......I don’t think Bruce was any LESS inclined to ‘forgive’ Jason of murder just because he was Jason and not Dick. In that case, it was just more about the fact that there was no way for Bruce to even TRY to force+quit out of his awareness of what Jason had done. Denial wasn’t going to cut it in the same way it had with Dick, because Dick’s ‘crime’ had been one and done.

But THEN, the flip side of THAT - or maybe we’re just on a tangent now, oh hell, who can keep track, let’s all just agree that flips were flipped and tangents were...tangented - like, the other interesting facet of this for me is if Bruce HADN’T been so intent on forcibly ignoring or forgetting that Dick had killed the Joker, for the sake of their relationship or whatever, or if someone else had brought it up - not only could this have improved Dick and Jason’s relationship, it also could have forced Bruce to confront the logical fallacy inherent in like...his MAIN ARGUMENT for why he was so deadset against Jason’s choices. 

And that all goes back to how Bruce has a tendency to project his own worst flaws onto his children, and be paranoid that they’re going to go down the same dark paths he constantly is trying to keep himself from straying down - ironically in part due to how he uses his childrens’ similarities to him in order to build common ground and see a place and purpose for himself in their lives in the first place. He sees himself in his children, that’s what draws him to them in the first place, and makes him act to bring them into his own life and build a home for them....but there’s a double-edged sword element to this too, as Bruce I think often perceives his worst fears for HIMSELF in his childrens’ actions and choices....and acts based on that. Rather than keeping centered his awareness that for all that they are LIKE him in various ways, they are their own people. As different from him as they are alike.

See, because like....Bruce’s primary reason for why he can’t ever allow himself to kill, even someone like the Joker....is because he KNOWS himself, and knows that if he ever allowed himself to cite precedent by doing it even just once.....he’d open up the door and progress through it past a point of no return, whereupon he’d never STOP being able to come up with justifications for why he should also kill this villain and this one and this one. Its the slippery slope argument. He can’t ever start down that slope, because he doesn’t trust himself to ever stop.

And he projects this same logic onto his children, who he seems so much of himself in....the good AND the bad. And so his fears AND his judgment, for both Jason AND Dick when they kill, even just in one special case....is that it sets them both on the same slippery slope. Because they are after all just like him, right?

But also they’re not....as evidenced by the fact that Dick DOESN’T KEEP KILLING. The Last Laugh is basically an outlier (assuming we don’t count Creighton, which I don’t rate the same because while I think Dick definitely did kill him, it was a clear cut case of self-defense and thus a totally different ballgame). Its significant that Dick killed, not just because he did it, and not just because Bruce didn’t actually ever forgive him for it....but also because...despite Bruce being afraid to face or acknowledge it because of how it played into his own fears for his own worst self and choices.....Bruce facing it is exactly what needs to happen in order for Bruce to ever acknowledge that his actual fears of the slippery slope....DID NOT HAPPEN, with Dick. Dick’s never used what happened with the Joker to cite a precedent, to justify to himself the choice to do that again with another villain he had just as much reason to hate.

And from THERE....once you connect all these dots and all these parallels and contrasts and intersections......its notable not just that Jason has killed, and with intent and without regret....but also that there IS no rationale for taking it for granted that Bruce acts differently with Jason’s crimes than he would if Dick committed them, just because its Jason and not Dick.....because the key difference is not WHICH of them did it, its the CIRCUMSTANCES of them doing it....and Jason’s circumstances not affording Bruce the same luxury of denial.

And then from THERE, finally, the coup de grace at the end of it all:

Is it also makes it equally notable that....just as Dick’s lack of killing again after the Joker, like, establishes a counter argument for Bruce’s fears that such a thing is inevitable once Dick killed even once....and with this fear being WHY he comes down so hard on the topic of even his children killing villains guilty of heinous crimes....

Dick’s lack of killing others after the Joker ALSO establishes a PRECEDENT....for the fact that no, killing someone does not make it IMPOSSIBLE to ever step BACK from that ledge if one so chooses. ‘Pulling the trigger’ as it were, even just once, initially....does not doom one of Bruce’s children to a lifetime of never being anything BUT a remorseless killer who can never choose a different path.

And of course, the fact that Jason killing certain people DOESN’T mean that he can’t ever stop, like....this is actually central to the entire Batfam’s dynamics as a whole?

Because after all.....literally every canon story, continuity or fanfic that has Jason reunite with the family to ANY degree, after having killed....which is like, basically all of them.....

These all take it as a given that....Jason is absolutely fully capable of choosing not to kill. He is not LOCKED into anything, beyond the possibility of having any kind of relationship with his family whatsoever, just because he’s killed....with the proof being like....literally all the stories where he still has a relationship with his family despite having killed previously or even still killing in some circumstances in the present!

The slippery slope does not rule all, is the thing. And the proof that Bruce’s fears of the slippery slope once slipped upon, being a one way street straight the fuck to hell, like.....the proof that that’s more a HIM problem than a hard and fast rule that can only ever play out one way for everybody Bruce see himself reflected in?

That proof literally begins with Last Laugh. With Dick. Paving the way for Jason there, rather than making a case for how actually things with Jason and Bruce would look totally different if it had just been Dick and Bruce there instead.

The second you acknowledge that the comics and most fanfics ALREADY take it as a given that Bruce’s projection of his own fears of the slippery murder slope is like....NOT actually any more of an inevitable death knell for Jason’s relationship with his family than Jason’s own actual death knell meant shit about his own longterm survival.....

Then Dick’s killing of the Joker in Last Laugh becomes extremely relevant not just because of what it reveals about how Bruce’s views on murder and his sons doing the murder is NOT actually conditional, based just on which son it is that does the deed most dirty....

It also becomes extremely relevant because of the precedent it establishes in countering the very argument/view that is central to keeping Jason from having any real relationship with his family until Bruce gets the fuck out of his own and everyone else’s way on this front.