#but agamemnon did not win this fight

[sigmaelxgr]

Kindof an old wip this one too, used to fix in my head the relationship between Charybde and his father, head of the clan and main Captain, Agamemnon.

More lore below v

In between, I changed a few aspects;

- Agamemnon is a Leviathan, this terrifying breed of Maormer that are half-beast in demeanor. He his extremely large, robust and lethal, but he has a very wise and kind demeanor to his people.

- Due to his very old age, Agamemnon acts with his clan like all of them are his children. It is, in fact, half-true; he has 36 of them, equal in daughters and sons. Being ~800yrs old some of those 36 children have their own lineage now.

- Charybde is the last, the dearliest of them. Born of true love instead of necessity (females pick their males when wanted and needed), Charybde has a special place in his father's heart, so dear he chose to never have an other spawn if it's not with his adored wife, Cérulée. She left, chosen by Orgnum himself to be part of his crew, and Agamemnon respected this decision. Charybde shall be the last.

- Due to his position as both Captain and simple male, Agamemnon usually has few but kind interactions with his spawns. The clan organizes to raise children all together - except for Charybde, that Agamemnon raised partly himself.

- Charybde being half-blood with such a strong and powerful breed, he grows fast, looks intimidating although he's still a child... and many, many expect of him things he's scared he could never atteign.

- Charybde is a sweet person with his kind, and he admires his father for the calm, the cleverness he shows at all time. It would be easy to figure this monster of a maormer to be prompt to rampage, but Agamemnon's taste for violence is as developped as his taste for subtility. With so many spawns, parenting became a second nature.

- Agamemnon is at first a war machine that grew terrifying by how responsabilities shaped in him such an ambivalent temper. Foes fear him and his crew, where each mer answers as one and respect is absolute for the Captain. The Captain is loyal to his mers, careful, just, but shows barely no pity for foes that do not respect their own men first.

- Charybde his a snake-caller by birth. Something that had disappeared in the Torve-Augure clan - the last being his father. Being a snake-caller means you share a natural strong bond with those forces of nature. Agamemnon has a twin snake brother called Adale, a forever hungered beast so colossal it has to eat whales. Charybde has one with a much smaller snake called Scyla, a sea viper, which he loves as his twin sister. Their bond gives him magical surges and snake aptitudes like molting his skin.

- Agamemnon has been to war for long centuries. The last assault on Sunhold gave him a large scar that his snake powers never truely absorbed. He's slowly dying, Adale being tortured by the slow decay of his twin brother and soulmate. Adale's specie is not supposed to survive this long, they keep growing as they feed and their appetite fits their length. Without Agamemnon raiding isles and going on front, Adale lacks food, his nature of a predator becomes a danger for maormer themselves. Charybde is expected to commune with Adale, but Adale is obsessed by its hunger.

[v3suvia]

On Diomedes of Argos.

Typically, when people think about their favorite heroes of the Trojan siege, they think of the likes of Achilles, or Odysseus, or even Agamemnon (or if you’re based, Hector.) And while these are all valid to whatever extent— because let’s be real, no one is choosing favorites based on who has the purest moral standpoint— they’re not exactly remembered for the noblest of reasons.

Achilles spends half of the Iliad inside his tent as a sulky burrito, and the other half slaughtering Trojans and crying over the consequences of his own actions. Odysseus is a chronic liar, and Agamemnon is Agamemnon. But at the end of the day, they’re still remembered (for better or for worse, really.)

Though, on the topic of Homeric heroes, I feel there is one who is often overlooked despite achieving great feats over the course of the epic; Diomedes of Argos. (Note: arguably the most metal of the Achaean heroes at Troy.) So, let’s rant talk about him!

Diomedes was one of the key players in Homer’s Iliad— a recount of the last year of the Trojan siege. Being summoned to fight under oath, Diomedes headed his fleet of 80 ships to Ilium. As well as having a whole chapter dedicated to how kickass he was [read more about that whole thing here], the king of Argos was also a master strategist, and extremely noble— not just in his war efforts.

For example, there are multiple points in the Iliad where he checks the leader of the Trojan expedition, Agamemnon, calling him out on his cowardice or for otherwise being an inadequate leader, [Book 9; ‘Agamemnon, I will begin by taking issue with you over your proposal… do you really believe the Greeks are the cowards and weaklings you say they are? If you for one, have set your heart on getting away, then go.’] [‘Zeus has granted you many things… He gave you the sceptre of power and the honour that comes with it, but he did not give you courage— and courage is the secret of authority.]

And one instance where he truces with the Trojan hero, Glaucus— both of them exchanging armors (on an active battlefield, btw) to honor the fact that their grandfathers had been allies, [Book 6; ‘So let us avoid each other’s spears... And let us exchange our armor so that everyone will know our grandfather’s friendship has made friends of us.’]

He is also one of the only soldiers in the war who avoids committing hubris in the entire epic, which is probably the most telling of all his virtuous traits.

Diomedes also has a proverb named after him! ‘Diomedean Necessity/Diomedean Compulsion', which basically means when someone does something for the greater good (despite the reluctance of the person in question.)

This is taken from the myth of Odysseus and Diomedes taking the wooden statue of Athena— dubbed the Palladium— from Ilium. During this heist, Odysseus tries to stab Diomedes in the back to steal the acclaim of taking the Palladium for himself.

Rather than punishing Odysseus on account of betraying his ally for personal gain, Diomedes ties him up and drags him back to camp instead, because he knew the Greeks couldn’t win the war without Odysseus’ wisdom.

Anyway, why the rant? Sure, I could sit here and convince you that he’s the coolest Greek hero, but what would I be trying to accomplish in doing so? Well, it’s simply because while every other Homeric hero is recognized and represented in modern media, Diomedes isn’t.

He wasn’t even mentioned once in Troy (2004), the film adaptation of the Iliad! Despite him being the focus of multiple chapters in the book, as well as playing a big role in the Achaean army’s over-all victory.

I’m sick of everyone (and by that, I mean most modern media) depicting him as though he was just some dude™ in the Iliad when he was actually (from a mildly biased standpoint) one of the best of the Achaeans at Troy.

TLDR; Diomedes of Argos = Based. He solos ur favs (probably. He almost killed Ajax the greater at Patroclus’ funeral games 💀)Put him in more movies/shows/games so me and the other two Diomedes fans can be happy.

[mydnyteraven]

First Sight

Argos sent fifty ships when Agamemnon sent out the call for aid for his brother’s war. Helen had been stolen from her house, and all the kings of Achea were to band together to bring her home.

Diomedes had not sworn the oath, he’d only been a boy, fresh from the siege against thebes, and barely able to reach his wine cup at the feast table, but Sthenelus, Diomedes’ brother-in-arms had sworn it, and war was what Diomedes did best.

“You will fight for Achea, and win glory for me,” Athena had said, and Diomedes had agreed. There was really nothing else to do *but* agree.

So it was, 50 ships flying the colors of Argos sailed to Aulis where Agamemnon’s army gathered, each carrying a full compliment of strong, able men.

Odysseus didn’t look like a king, Diomedes thought when the Ithacan fleet finally joined the ships anchored in the bay. Though the man’s clothing was finely made and his cloak was richly dyed, his hair was unkempt, his skin was grey and his face was drawn. His eyes were sunken into his skull like a death’s-head. He looked nearly as old as Nestor, walking with stooped shoulders as he and his closest commanders entered the main tent where Agamemnon held his council. But his eyes shone with cunning, and with some hidden emotion Diomedes could not read.

Rumors filled the camp when the king arrived.

“Odysseus, son of Laertes,” the men around him said. “Laertes was an Argonaut.”

“Half the kings’ fathers were Argonauts, that’s not special. Besides, I heard that Laertes wasn’t his father, but Sysiphus, the man who cheated death.”

“That would suit him, sly fox that he is, tried to dodge the draft.”

“I heard he’d gone mad.”

“No, that was a ruse, to trick Agamemnon. Palamedes called his bluff though. Odysseus is brilliant…”

Diomedes had heard enough. He’d looked on the map to see where this Cephalonian fleet was coming from, and found the clump of islands so far west they were practically in uncharted territory, and at the heart of it was a tiny island, so small Diomedes could hardly make out the label as “Ithaca.” He could hardly believe a man of such reknown hailed from such a backwater. *This* was the man who had orchestrated the oath? The man whose plans had brought them all here?

“I have mentored him as I have mentored you,” Athena explained.

Diomedes got a better look at king Odysseus as he left Agamemnon’s tent, flanked by his men, and realized that he had overestimated his age.

Odysseus was not as old as Nestor, perhaps he was only a decade older than Diomedes, at most, but he bore the signs of a man who had not slept in days, which had given him the grey pallor, and the circles beneath his eyes had overtaken them. Now that they were out of sight of the main tent, and the rest of the army had gone about their business, Diomedes saw the king lean heavily on his man’s shoulder, going from looking like an old man to practically a child, the picture of innocence.

When the broad-shouldered man supporting the king shot Diomedes a glare, Dio simply saluted and strode away. This was Diomedes' domain, the domain of the soldier. What did he care about the opinion of a draft dodger?

[johaerys-writes]

WIP Whenever

It's been a while since I've shared a proper snippet, and since I've been working on the next chapter of As Fate Would Have It this week I thought I'd post a little excerpt from it:

“Calchas, a priest of Agamemnon, ordered a great sacrifice, a hecatomb. Apollo, the far-seeing god, sent him a vision that a great warrior would be needed within their ranks for the war to be won. My son is already famed for his speed and his skill with a spear. Agamemnon believes that it is my Achilles that shall win this war for him.”

Nereus listens to her attentively, stroking his long, mossy beard; he stays silent for a long moment after she finishes speaking, his features dark in thought. “And does he believe true, daughter?”

Thetis holds her tongue. Of all the gods, only Themis, who gave her the prophecy, and Ilithyia, who helped her during labour, know of Achilles' fate. Both goddesses are bound to her by oaths of trust and friendship. She has never spoken the truth of it to anyone else, for fear that they might use it against him.

“I do not know, my lord.”

A susurrus of whispers swells around her at once. Thetis ignores them, letting them wash over her like the tide. 

“There must be other warriors, much stronger and more experienced, that could fulfill that prophecy,” a voice comes, heavy with disdain and louder over the others. It is Amphitrite, one of the fifty nereids, who steps forward. Her long black hair is arranged in a myriad of thin yet intricate braids, sturdy like ship rope, and the fabric of her white dress is thick like a ship’s sails; no doubt a memento from one of the many shipwrecks she or her monstrous offspring have caused. Her face, though exquisitely beautiful once, is now marred by the deep grooves and scars left from her battle with a leviathan long ago. Of all her sisters, Amphitrite is the one Thetis has always liked the least. “Why did the King of Mycenae want your son, who has never fought in a war before, who has never bloodied his spear, to fight for him? That boy is little more than a baby in the cradle." 

Thetis meets her sister's challenge with a cool, detached look. “Perhaps you should ask Agamemnon's priest directly," she tells her flatly. "Or better yet, Apollo, god of mice and locusts, who gave the prophecy. I am not privy to his thoughts or reasons.”

She could argue with Amphitrite in front of the whole court; insist on the legendary quality of her son’s prowess in battle, but that would not serve her. It would not serve either of them. Better far to let them believe that this is nothing but a dream sent to a seer by a confusing and capricious god.  

Thetis POV scenes may just be my favourite to write ngl!!!

Tagging forth to (no pressure) @darlingpoppet @spineless-lobster @baejax-the-great @iktend @rowanisawriter @supernova3space @calciumyum and literally anyone else who would like to share some art or fic they're currently working on?? Idrk who else to tag haha sorry :')

[chbflametinker]

Letter to Patroclus

Patroclus, my heart's most faithful half,

Didn't I tell you to stay in the chariot? To not throw the spear? I felt betrayed thinking of your disobedience. The way your smooth tongue found a loophole amongst my words, just like Odysseus would, and you returned to me, unbreathing. Ah, Odysseus, back with his lover, Penelope, in Ithaca, and Hector with his family in the underworld. I saw the reunited family when I finally met my demise—when I saw Paris shoot that arrow towards me, guided by Lord Apollo. But to my utmost surprise, I did not see you here in Elysium. Paradise, they call it, for heroes like me. But is this even paradise when you're not here?

I wandered around, searching for your soul, wanting to express my love, gratitude, resentment, and guilt toward you. However, I am met with only great kings, princes, and other heroic demigods and mortals who know my name. Hearing my name praised by them isn't the same as hearing it from your lips—those lips I've tasted so many times. I fear the men and women after our generation would consider us mere brothers, cousins, or best friends. You are most definitely more than that to me, my Philtatos — most beloved.

As I sat by the River Lethe here in Elysium, I must confess, I wanted to bathe in it, to erase the memories of my pride overruling my judgment. Hubris, the sole reason I lost you. Then I pondered; I whispered your name, "Patroclus, glory of his father." Pater...Kleos...was the "glory" I was chasing and fighting for my whole life...you? You were there all along, begging me to help the Greeks, but my foolish self cared more for Agamemnon's insult toward me than your life. Briseis was right; you were worth ten of me…even more. I remember those nights when you, unbreathing, lay beside me. I'd jolt wide awake, screaming that I am finally here to help you win against the Trojans, against Hector. Then I look to my side, and there it is; your cold, unmoving body, your pale hands that once held my face. I shook your body. No response, and I, once again, wept.

I wish we were back in Chiron's humble abode, just eating figs, playing the lyre, and training. We could have grown old together. I could have thrown an apple at you and bound our souls together, Homophrosyne, like Odysseus and Penelope. But wishful thinking would get me nowhere now, wouldn't it?

With much love and regret, Achilles

This is my entry to my enlistment in my club at university; no one should repost this literary piece into which I poured my heart. I only wanted to share this since I am really proud of it. Please contact me IMMEDIATELY if someone reposted it on any social media platform. Thank you!

Artwork credit:

alessia.trunfio. (2021, December 1). “He’s the half of my soul, as poets say.” Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/p/CW6H2jOrJBc/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[lonewolfel]

Warrior Penelope Pre-Epic

This is an Epic: the Musical AU with some inspiration from other myths, one that has no bases in history. That being said I will try to somewhat keep it grounded in realism for the world in some aspects. Once again please don't say this is historically accurate some elements are historic but most aren't.

Thoughts under the cut.

Penelope was trained in basic combat and how to manage a household do to being a Spartan. She however doesn't have any divine mentor. (I was tempted to do either Ares, Artemis, or Hera but I didn't want to have a god that was on the Trojan's side and I have plans for Hera later and her being Penelope's mentor screws up those plans)

So instead of pretending to be mad, Odysseus decides it would be better if he couldn't fight. (I have some problems with that myth and the logic behind it.) Odysseus screws up a hunt or does it himself but he injures his leg enough that he can't stand.

Palamedes arrives and demands Odysseus to fight for Agamemnon. Odysseus points out his injury but Palamedes doesn't buy it.

Eventually Palamedes accepts the fact Odysseus is truly disabled. (Palamedes throws Telemachus off a cliff while Penelope is tied up. Odysseus injures himself worse trying to get to his son. Athena ends up saving him and scolded Palamedes.)

Palamedes stumped tells Agamemnon and Agamemnon being the ass he is tells Palamedes regardless of Odysseus's condition to bring him to Troy as they can't win without him. He also sworn an oath and no one in Odysseus's family beside Odysseus could fufil it as his father is insane and his son is an infant.

The healers treating Odysseus fear that if Odysseus was to leave Ithaca due to infection and possible blood loss. Not to mention if he survives he would never survive combat.

Penelope begs Palamedes to let her go to Troy in her husband's stead. Palamedes is unsure but Agamemnon doesn't protest. They all figure that Penelope would die in the first battle and then they could send for Odysseus and maybe he will be well enough to fight. Odysseus protests but Penelope shuts him up.

Penelope shows Palamedes that she is more than capable of thinking up strategies and would be worth taking her husbands place so that the oath can continue to be honored.

Eurylochus while on the ship acts as a figure head to ensure that Penelope's orders are obeyed. (Her and Eurylochus have a much closer bond than Odysseus and Eurylochus did in Epic.)

Odysseus makes Athena swear an oath that during the war she will aid his wife and ensure she leaves Troy alive. (Athena afterwards trains Penelope in fighting and battle strategy.)

Due to Penelope not being respected due to her gender she becomes ruthless. She is known for killing any Trojans she comes across including women and children. (It started off to save them from slavery but after the first year she does so to ensure that she is feared enough that no one thinks of betraying her.)

Penelope and Diomedes are close friends. Diomedes will often repeat Penelope's plans so that the men actually follow them at least during the first part of the war. After that her reputation and protection by Athena is enough to deter any men from disobeying her though Diomedes continues to be her number 1 supporter in Troy.

Athena carried messages between Penelope and Odysseus with Odysseus helping Penelope plan strategies including the Trojan Horse.

Penelope makes Athena swear that she wouldn't tell Odysseus what she has become during the war in fear that her kind and gentle husband would leave her if he found out she became a monster.

Penelope is called the Amazon or Monstruous Queen by the Greeks and even some of the soldiers of Ithaca. She actually likes those titles as it shows the fear that they had for her and the more they feared her the less likely they were to disobey her.

Odysseus tries to heal quickly in order to take Penelope's place in the war but it is revealed that his injury had done a lot of damage to his leg so that he could barely walk. Odysseus is forced to use either a wheelchair or crutches. While Odysseus should use a wheelchair more than crutches he doesn't as he doesn't want to appear any more weak than he already seems.

After Penelope leaves for Troy, women of Ithaca (including Calypso for this au) begin to flock to the palace as they think Penelope would soon die and they could become royalty and have their sons sit on the throne.

The suitors at first tried to get Telemachus to aid them in their goals once he is old enough, but Telemachus never trusts them or like them. They begin to see him as a threat but with Penelope still alive they can't do anything.

Once it becomes clear that Odysseus is permanently disabled. Nobles and princes flock to Ithaca to try to become the Prince's tutor and an aid to the king. Odysseus knows that it is a ploy so that they can kill him and his son so they would become king. (Odysseus distracts them somehow I haven't figured out yet.)

Let me know if you have any questions about this version of the au. Also feel free to use any aspects of it.

Next up is the Trojan saga.

[talxe]

Reading the Iliad, Book 11 thoughts

This is my first time ever reading it and I know next to nothing abt greek mythology so if I interpret anything wrong by all means pls correct me

Im reading the Robert Fagles translation

Okay so the books called "Agamemnon's Day of Glory" so I thought the war was going to tip in favor of the Greeks again. It actually got worse tbh

Loads of people die

It's the next morning after the last book and Zeus tells the goddess of strife to encourage the Agrives to go fight

So everyone gets ready for battle but Zeus is definitely on the Trojans side today (again)

The gods don't interfere with this battle all at I think

Agamemnon goes on a mini killing spree and kills a bunch of ppl

Zeus doesn't like that all too much so he sends Iris down to tell Hector "Hey, hang back for right now but when Agamemnon gets wounded and retreats from the battlefield it's free real estate."

Agamemnon ends up getting his arm slashed and he goes "That hurts bad"

Homer compares this pain to the pain of giving birth... No, the fuck it is not, Homer

Character: *Gets hurt.*

Homer: "Its like when a Lion-" He compares wounded people to animals a lot in this one.

Agamemnon goes back to the Greek camps

Hector sees this and he just knows this is his moment

And he fucking takes it

So Odysseus grabs Diomedes and starts to kill people

Hector starts booking it toward them, Dio throws his spear which hits Hector's helmet but it just kinda bounces off (Apollo gave it to him)

Dio complains that if HE had the help of a god, Hector would be dead

Just get in the chariot Diomedes

Lmao so Paris is off in the distance somewhere and he takes a shot at Diomedes while he's striping some guys armor

AND ACTUALLY ENDED UP HITTING DIO IN THE FOOT????????

Paris IMMEDIATELY starts going "Omg I'm the best, I just shot Diomedes♥️😩"

Diomedes tells him if they fought hand to hand rn that Paris would lose bc he sucks. Which, fair.

While Ody shields him Diomedes pulls the arrow out of his foot and has to go back to camp

So Odysseus is left alone lol

The Trojans end up jumping the shit out of him to the point that he has to call for help

Menelaus and Ajax(greater) hear this and rush over to help him

Odysseus ends up hurt as well so he too has to go back to the Greek camp

Ajax remains and kills a lot of the Trojans that were jumping Ody

Thennnnn Paris shoots Machaon (YK the healer of the Greek side)

Yk its bad when Paris starts fucking up ur team

Nestor and Idomeneus lose their shit and they're like "Get Machaon tf out of here NOW!"

TONS of important ppl have been injured by this point

Zeus stuns Ajax and so he falls back to protect their ships

A man named Eurpylus runs in to help Ajax.

Paris sees this and shoots him too😭 this time in the thigh

Jump to Achilles. He's watching shit go down from his boat and he's Nestor rushing back into camp with someone who looks like Machaon, and he says "lol finally they're going to beg for my help"

THEY BASICALLY DID THAT TWO FUCKNG BOOKS AGO

He calls for Patroclus and sends him to see if the person with Nestor is Machaon. (It is)

Patroclus mentioned♥️♥️♥️

Nestor tries to sit Pat down for some win but he refuses

Nestor talks abt how now is really not the time for Achilles to be acting like a child

Then proceeds to go on one of those "Back in my day " rants and talks for like 3 full pages abt something idk anymore

Holy shit Nestor

At the end of it all Nestor says Achilles really only listens to Patroclus

And here's where TOSA kinda fucked me up because I really thought that Pat came up with the idea to lead the Myrmidons into battle himself but it was actually Nestor who suggested the idea

On the way back to Achilles, Patroclus runs into Eurpylus (who is not in good shape)

Patroclus says "hmm idk I'm supposed to get back to Achilles." BRO?

But he ends up healing him anyway. The end

[ilions-end]

love chewing some more on the dispute over achilles' arms. so in the posthomerica:

ajax is definitely the man responsible for protecting both achilles' corpse and his armour. odysseus appears later and helps fight a path back to camp

achilles' armour DOESN'T EVEN FIT ODYSSEUS. aND it's too heavy for him to wear comfortably. it fits ajax tho!

odysseus got injured and he chafes at not being able to compete in any of the funeral games for achilles. he feels he has something to prove (AND he earned sympathy points for getting injured during the corpse retrieval)

nestor foresees that whoever DOESN'T get the arms will become an enemy to the acheans, so he presents it almost like a question of damage reduction: between the strongest man in the army and the cleverest, who has the potential to hurt them more? which can they least afford to lose?

menelaus is DISTRAUGHT at ajax' suicide and states outright that odysseus never deserved to win

odysseus publicly apologizes (!) and says he hadn't realized that the arms meant far more to ajax than they ever did to him, and that he'd gladly have campaigned for ajax to recieve them if he'd known (bc quintus is big on reconciliation and no one holding grudges)

agamemnon swears to tecmessa that as long as he or teucer lives, she will never lack freedom or protection. which just tickles me because HOW can he pledge teucer to it just like that? agamemnon you are a sceptered king and currently the head honcho of all the other kings! teucer is an illegitimate archer who cannot even ever be legally considered an adult citizen, AND he just lost his only means of protection too. give the man a BREAK aggie

[mademoiselle-red]

So I had a thought today: Patroclus’ tragedy is that he isn’t Odysseus. Hear me out. This is gonna be a long and meandering story. So I was thinking about that battered old picture book adaptation of The Iliad I’d received as a child, and how at the time, I was very into “trickster” characters who achieve their goals through some kind of cleverness and get away with it. My favorite character through the first part of the book was Paris because he wins over Helen by getting Aphrodite to make her fall in love with him (yes, I know better now, but I was 9 years old at the time lol). But then I realized he was actually stupid, so I dropped him. No one really piqued my interest until Patroclus showed up and put on his friend’s armor and bluffed his way through the enemy lines. I was really rooting for him to win! It was brilliant. But then the gods intervened and gave the victory to Hector. Boo. I dropped him, Patroclus —he didn’t get away with his trick, and that made him immediately less interesting to 9 year old me. I did feel a vague sense of unfairness at the fact that he didn’t fail because his plan wasn’t clever enough, but because he didn’t have a god on his side. And, I didn’t care much for his friend Achilles since he was strong because he was strong, not because he was clever.

I was also at the time, very into track and field races, which were co-ed at my elementary school, and I always managed to do pretty well in the longer races against boys who normally ran faster than me because I knew how to manage my stamina and they didn’t. Anyhow, I ended up latching onto Agamemnon, because the ending of the picture-book focused on him, and he ended up killed by his wife, and thus not clever enough to get away with it, which made him a total loser in the eyes of my former self. But then, a few years later, I read The Odyssey in my 9th grade English class, and I finally found the character of my heart, Odysseus. He is the clever trickster who does “get away with it”, over and over again, and I loved it. Odysseus is not as strong as Achilles or politically powerful as Agamemnon, but he is clever, and he outlives them all. I could never get enough of this kind of story: the clever youngest brother wins the fortune, the clever hero defeats the stupid knights and marries the princess.

Real life didn’t quite work out that way. Like Patroclus’ bluff, my advantage in strategy and stamina was short-lasting. As we began to hit puberty, my body fat to muscle ratio caught up with me, the boys got even faster, and the school races were now segregated by sex. But by then, I was already losing interest in the sport.

And now as an adult, I’ve found new appreciation for the tragedy of Patroclus. It is the tragedy of the almost-good-enough, the almost-victory. He was more clever than Achilles, cleverer than Hector, and he could have won, had he been able to fight that battle on his own terms, bypass Hector and make it over the walls of Troy, had the gods not thrown him down from the walls and forced him to fight Hector face to face. But he isn’t Odysseus, and Hector isn’t the Cyclops. But he could have been Odysseus, who always won by not fighting fair, perhaps in another universe, where Lady Athena smiled upon him and chose him as her favorite.

Patroclus was among the best of the warriors, but not the best. He was clever, but not the cleverest. His tragedy is perhaps the tragedy of the average person, as strong and clever as an ordinary hardworking warrior would be, but not extraordinary, not blessed by the gods, forced to share the world with those few who are.

[classicslesbianopinions]

Ancient Woman Thunderdome 2023

Round 5 (SEMIFINAL) Match 1: Clytemnestra vs. Atalanta!

The rules: Vote based on who would win in a fight, NOT who you like more. Consider factors such as physical prowess, intelligence or cunning, and magical ability.

If the character has multiple non-godly forms, consider the one you believe to be more powerful. If the character is a goddess for a portion of their life, please only consider their mortal or non-godly form.

The fighters:

Fighter: Clytemnestra Source(s): Aeschylus's Oresteia, Sophocles' Electra, Euripides' Electra Bio: Clytemnestra is known for being Helen's sister, Agamemnon's wife, and for murdering her husband immediately after his triumphant return from the Trojan War, having waited ten years to get her revenge on him for sacrificing their daughter, Iphigenia, to Artemis.

Fighter: Atalanta Source(s): Apollodorus's Library, Ovid's Metamorphoses, various other mythological sources Bio: Atalanta was a huntress associated with Artemis. She was a virgin who lived in the wilderness, and at one point killed two centaurs who tried to rape her. She may or may not have sailed and fought with the Argonauts, and defeated Peleus in a wrestling match at Pelias's funeral games. When Artemis sent a boar to Calydon to punish the king for not sacrificing to her, Atalanta joined the hunt and drew first blood. Later, her father found her and tried to get her to marry. Atalanta, knowing she was faster than just about anyone, said she would marry anyone who could beat her in a footrace, but if the suitor lost, he would be killed. Many men were killed, until Hippomenes prayed to Aphrodite and received three golden apples, which he threw to the side during the race to distract her. She did marry him, and, after she bore his child, they were both turned into lions in retaliation for having sex in a sacred area.

[greatest-greek-games]

Alright, several people have now submitted Agamemnon, and at least a few of them did it out of a legitimate desire to see him win. I may still draw him getting bodied by the long list of people who wanted to fight him, but please know I do it out of love.

At present, there's still a lot of popular enemies that haven't been submitted! Depending on the size of the poll, they'll probably be subbed in as first-round fights, though some characters will end up with only one enemy.

[thatpyroblogs]

I really love this idea. I also have way too many thoughts on it so I'm going to put them under a readmore.

I can see Athena winning by convincing Paris by making a great case that just taking Helen won't end well for him. But if he picks her, she will give him a great war general who can help him obtain Helen without worry of repercussion. Her argument is convincing enough for him to pick her.

Personally, I also like the idea that Athena would erase Odysseus's memories when she takes him to Troy. Don't have to worry about your new war general trying to escape if he thinks he's willingly came to your city (without Penelope, Telemachus or his parents there isn't much incentive to stay the ruler of a tiny island when you can be a famous general of a great city instead). Plus Athena makes the mistake of thinking Penelope won't be able to amass the help she would need to get Odysseus back.

Paris uses Odysseus to help him work towards the thing he really wants, Helen. Thus Odysseus would begin take out the suitors who swore the oath and would come to Menelaus's aid if they were to kidnap Helen. Just imagine spymaster Odysseus plotting the assassinations of Menelaus's potential allies to slowly but surely get Paris closer to his goal of taking Helen as his wife.

Penelope would learn of her husband's fate through a vision from Hera (who would act to Penelope as Athena acted for Odysseus in the Iliad). I'd imagine Hera would not only be unhappy about Athena winning, but also because she tore apart a happy marriage. Hera would encourage Penelope to go to Agamemnon and Menelaus to gather support and warn them of what Paris was plotting. Hera might even work some divine magic in order to convince the brothers that what Penelope says is true.

The tricky part for this story that still needs hashing out is figuring out what allies are still alive and which of those alive would be easily convinced to join the war effort. The ties of some of the suitors to the Argonauts might be a good option to explore there. I've been using this map to kind of plot out who would most likely be dead by who is the closest to Troy and thus the easiest to kill off first. Though rumors of suitors dying off could be a way that some of the other suitors are convinced to join the fight against Troy.

After figuring out who is alive for the fight would also help determine what bits of the original story might still happen (albeit with changes given Penelope might encounter issues Odysseus did not). I'm thinking Penelope might go the route of disguising herself as a man, with the help of Hera, so that she can fight on the front lines. Agamemnon and Menelaus would know the truth.

Another change I can see happening is Diomedes, and thus by extension his comrades like Sthenelus and Euryalus, starting out as helping the Trojans, because Athena tells him to and I could also see Athena neglecting to mention that Paris has been having Odysseus take out suitors. Once Diomedes figures out that Athena has messed with Odysseus's head, and that Paris is having suitors killed off, I can see him switching sides and becoming an ally for Penelope. This would give her an ally who has access to the inside of Troy.

There's also great potential for Odysseus to have moments where he thinks something is wrong with his memories. Imagine him watching Hector and Andromache just being a loving couple and feeling like he's missing something important. Imagine the birth of Astyanax and Odysseus once again feeling like he should be remembering something important.

This is again just what came to my mind when you suggested Athena winning that apple. I'd really like to write this story, but I also know it would take ages to write out and man that whole war bit is going to require a lot of reading, rereading, and notetaking/marking of my copy of the Iliad.

Odysseus of Troy au

A friend of mine misspoke and said ‘Odysseus of Troy’ instead of ‘Ithaca’. 

And thus, this au was born:

What if Paris had chosen Athena in the Goddess’s beauty contest to receive her offer of wisdom and battle tactics?

Instead of giving these qualities to him directly she has him kidnap Odysseus as an advisor.

Who would go:

Penelope would organise for the forces of Ithaca to travel to Troy under Eurylochus to retrieve her husband. I also imagine that Agamemnon and Menelaus would bring some forces as a favour to Penelope (they have family connections to her through Clytemnestra and Helen). Achilles and the myrmidons might still show up for glory, despite not having personal stakes. Overall there are way fewer people going to Troy as Odysseus is not Helen. 

The gods’ favour:

Assuming the Trojans refuse to hand Odysseus over in diplomatic talks, they go to war. 

Athena favours the Trojans in this version. Hera favours the Greeks. Aphrodite really wants Paris dead so generally supports the Greek warriors but she doesn’t hate all the Trojans and still protects her son Aeneas. The other Gods fill pretty much the same roles.

Odysseus’ experience:

In this version of the Iliad, Odysseus would make several escape attempts throughout the story but would be thwarted by Athena and the Trojans. 

Odysseus would also be uncooperative in supplying the Trojans with strategies. They consider just handing him over but fear going against Athena’s will and losing her favour. There would be an interaction between Odysseus and Athena similar to the moment in book 3 when Aphrodite threatens Helen.

The war’s end:

The war would probably end diplomatically as ,after a time, it becomes increasingly pointless for all involved. Odysseus would be of no use to the Trojans while being uncooperative. Priam, feeling guilty about keeping a father from his wife and son, would decide to return him. Paris would put up less of a fuss about losing a prisoner than a bride.

Athena out of spite at the outcome would guide some Greeks into Troy to steal some prizes. It would not be a full scale sacking of Troy due to having fewer troops, but it would satisfy them to be happy to return home. 

If anyone has any ideas they’d like to add I’d love to see them

[johaerys-writes]

I got u fam. Achilles was known to ransom captives rather than kill. Why? If he went to troy for glory, then why was he not out there killing left and right? Do you think that deep down it was against his nature and he was just “stalling”? What exactly was his plan to achieve glory? TSoA in a way implies Achilles did a lot of “stalling” to have more time with Patroclus, but I want to hear your take on the Iliad.

Hello, thank you for this ask! You raise a few different questions so let me answer them one by one.

Why does Achilles ransom captives rather than kill? What was his plan to achieve glory? In Book 1, Achilles explains exactly why he went to Troy, and his attitude towards the Trojans in general. This is what he says to Agamemnon at the agora:

For it was not on account of Trojans warriors I came to wage battle here, since to me they are blameless— never yet have they driven off my cattle, or my horses, nor ever in Phthia, where the rich earth breeds warriors, have they destroyed my harvest, since there is much between us, both shadowy mountains and clashing sea. But we followed you, O great shameless one, for your pleasure, to win recompense for Menelaos and for you, dog-face, from the Trojans; none of this do you pause to consider or care for.

Achilles doesn't have anything personal against the Trojans. He didn't come to Troy for the singular purpose of slaughtering them and their families, nor does he seem to revel in that violence, even though he also says that of all the Achaeans he is the one that conducts 'the greater part of furious war', as the strongest among them. He takes pride in his skill but he isn't bloodthirsty. He came to Troy as much for honour (i.e. winning recompense for the Atreides and restoring Hellas' honour as a whole, which is how the war was framed), as for glory. Therefore, helping Agamemnon win his war and bringing Helen back to Menelaus would have been Achilles' 'plan to achieve glory' if you want to call it that. I know that the take of Achilles being obsessed with his own glory and doing everything in his power to make sure he gets as much of it as he can is quite popular, but I believe that his reasons for fighting in the war are much more multi-faceted than that. And it's also something that he very eloquently explains throughout the Iliad as well.

Later on, in Book 21, when Lykaon (one of Priam's sons who had been sold by Achilles to slavery and managed to find his way back home) implores Achilles to spare him once more, Achilles tells him that he used to spare the Trojans because it is what his heart chose once, but that is no more. And then he kills him—which comes to show us that brutally slaughtering the Trojans he encounters isn't like him at all, and it is not what others expect of him.

As to whether it is in his nature or not, I really can't say. I do think that, as I said earlier, Achilles as a character isn't bloodthirsty or violent for the sake of being violent, he does not kill needlessly even when he does have that choice—we only see him slaughtering like that after Patroclus' death, which is essentially the breakdown of his character. But I believe it also has to do with his upbringing: in a previous ask I mentioned that Euripides in his Iphigenia at Aulis has Agamemnon explain to Menelaus (and the audience) that Chiron raised Achilles to be honourable and to stay away from wickedness. Achilles himself says that Chiron taught him to keep a single heart (i.e. to be steadfast and keep true to his words and actions), to be respectful of the gods and those he chooses to follow (the Atreides in this case) and do honour to them with his spear, unless they lead him or the people astray. That doesn't sound like someone who kills people left and right, nor like someone obsessed with glory no matter what is required to achieve it. And this is a portrayal that is encountered in other works of antiquity as well. Which tells me that this is the way Achilles was intended to be perceived: stubborn and hotheaded, but at the same time honourable, law abiding and very rigid in his moral code leader and warrior.

2. Was Achilles stalling? That is a question that does not really have a straightforward answer imo. Miller chooses to have Achilles stall so he can have more time with Patroclus, but the truth is that in the Iliad we have no evidence of that. Even the extent to which Achilles knew of the prophecy isn't conclusive: in Book 1, he already knows that he will never be leaving Troy and that he'll die there, but it is only in Book 18 that Thetis mentions that Achilles' death will come soon after Hector's. It is not clear in that exchange, at least to me, whether Achilles hears of it for the first time or if he has known it all along. So we can't really know whether he was delaying his own death, nor if he did it for the sake of Patroclus. I believe that anything we say on this topic is pure speculation.

As to why the war took as long as it did: there is no straightforward answer to this either. Perhaps the armies were evenly matched for the most part. Perhaps Troy's walls were just that strong. Perhaps it is the result of bad leadership: as it is hinted a few times in the Iliad, Achilles would get into arguments with Agamemnon and other leaders, presumably because he disagreed with their ways of doings things, which could mean that Agamemnon was just, well, an incompetent leader whose decisions caused the war to go on longer and longer. Perhaps it is a combination of all of the above. For all we know, Achilles, as the extremely straightforward and honourable person he is, wanted to do his best to make sure the Atreides win their war so they can all go back home—and he has already planned and prepared for his death in that case, as he tells Patroclus before he leaves to fight Hector that he expects him to come back safe from the fighting and take his son to Phthia to meet his grandfather and his clansmen after Achilles is gone.

That doesn't sound like someone who fears or stalls his death, but as someone who has prepared for it even if it saddens him. Besides, Achilles' greatest descriptor, 'swift-footed', does not imply a person who would be stalling when it comes to anything, rather a person that sees what he has to do and simply does it; although whether he was ever entirely sold on Agamemnon's and Menelaus' war is also debatable, if you ask me.

I hope I answered your questions!

[equalseleventhirds]

achilles and jon parallels (on the assumption of annabelle as odysseus, obvs) (and tbh mostly focused on Jon In The Apocalypse):

literal fucking godlike power/invulnerability (with perhaps? one fatal weakness?)

marked...... when young........... by the gods.............

achilles trying to avoid the trojan war and being tricked (by odysseus) into revealing himself: jon pretending he doesn't believe in the supernatural until jane prentiss's attack (hastened by a spider) forces him to admit it

the greeks were prophesized to lose troy if they didn't have achilles, the web's plan (and also jonah's plan) Requires Jon

the fucking smiting, achilles could NOT let a wrong go unavenged

odysseus and achilles are on the same side but also were opposites and fought a lot, but also odysseus gave achilles actual good advice and sometimes made him stop with the fighting to do a smarter plan (in which i continue to hold out hope abt annabelle........ but also she did give good advice. also told him he was responsible for eating trauma so.)

[baejax-the-great]

I know that most Americans are taught in school that ancient Greek stories are almost all about hubris and the punishment for that hubris, and I think a lot of teachers have tried to force this onto the Iliad, where it just doesn't really fit.

If you ask who caused the problems in the Iliad, I think most of us could correctly identify Agamemnon. Prior to the start of the book, he caused a plague. Then he needlessly pissed off his best general in a dishonorable display. Then he does a whole bunch of weird shit including telling his soldiers they are quitting the war and everyone can go home, and then throwing a fit when his soldiers are all like "thank god let's get the fuck out of here." His own soldiers boo him when he tries to talk.

However, if you look at who is "punished" in the Iliad, it's easy to come to the conclusion that it's Achilles (although Hector would be another solid choice. Patroclus is the most valid choice given he died as a direct result of impersonating an invulnerable demigod-sorry, buddy, but you bit off more than you could chew with that stunt).

This is the wrong framework for this story, however. The Iliad is not a cautionary tale about prideful soldiers getting their comeuppance. It's a story about the costs of a severely mismanaged war, how violence and grief beget more violence and grief, and the callous cruelty of uncaring gods.

Patroclus doesn't die to punish Achilles for sitting out the war. Patroclus dies in order to get Achilles back in the fight. During the Embassy, Achilles decides that he'd rather survive than fight Trojans who had never done anything to him. Odysseus's pragmatic appeal to greed, Phoenix's emotional plea, and Ajax's "I don't know why you asked me to come here, he's clearly not changing his mind" do nothing to persuade him. He is persuaded not to set sail immediately, but that's about it.

Had Patroclus not been slain by Hector, Achilles would have had no reason to return to the fighting. He'd already decided his life was worth more than treasure, than glory, than the return of Briseis. Troy holds nothing for him. However, the gods wanted their show, so Zeus makes sure Patroclus dies, thus giving Achilles a motive to return to the battle regardless of how shitty Agamemnon is. He no longer cares about any of that. He is driven entirely by grief.

While Achilles is killing enough Trojans to clog a river, there are mentions of how he used to be chill and ransom dudes instead of just slaughtering them all. He talks about how he can't stand Odysseus's lying, or Agamemnon's drunkenness, During the funeral games, whilst giving away all the shit he no longer needs because he's going to be dead in a week, he shows better leadership than Agamemnon does in the entirety of the book. Antilochus did something dickish? Hand out more prizes. Agamemnon is a sore loser who will throw a fit if he doesn't win? Just hand him the first prize loot and say he won before he even competes. Everyone goes home happy. Achilles might be petty as hell, but he knows how to manage people so that they don't go off in a tantrum and pray for Zeus to kill their colleagues.

The book ends with Priam appealing to Achilles' honor, which works. Achilles' grief is enough to slay an army and desecrate a body, but his honor wins out in the end. (One wonders if Hector, had he been successful in bringing Pat's corpse back to stick his head on a pike and feed his body to the dogs, would have been so moved.) It ends on this note, with the honor understanding of two men who the audience know are doomed to die very soon for no good reason.

The cast of characters in the Iliad is too broad to pin the whole thing as a story about Achilles or a simple story of prideful downfall. Yeah, Achilles steals the spotlight, and yeah, shit sucks for him, but at the end of it, he's still getting his promised immortal glory. In my opinion, Achilles' arc is more about how grief can turn a good man bad and how killing begets more killing.

The Iliad is not about Achilles' pride, nor is Achilles an antagonist or a villain in it, nor was he ever meant to be seen as such.

[foxglow-diner]

I was taking a Uquiz and saw someone say that Achilles and Patroclus are tragic characters because they have the agony in dealing with a lover who suffers while the other is dead.

Now, I understand that is horrible. I can't imagine such a hell on earth. I do, however, have two cents I'd like to provide.

One, I don't doubt Achilles and Patroclus were as close as they were and didn't at some point have a fling. If they were lovers in an official sort, I am skeptical. Homer has no problem showing sexual romance and homosexual subtext. Though, I do think that if he wanted their romance to be in there, he most certainly would've included it somewhere in the book. Maybe he did, and it's just been lost to history. Or perhaps he just thought it was so apparent, that he didn't want to make it explicitly stated. Either way, I do find it odd that specifics aren't given.

My other point is The Song of Achilles. That book has overly sappy prose. Madeline Miller managed to put together modern YA in the most stereotypical form with a Homeric writing style to make the amalgamation The Song of Achilles is. I understand that the book is told from Patroclus' perspective, so there might be some romantic bias. But, Patroclus isn't a soft figure. He wasn't in the Iliad. He was a harsh warrior, then lover. That is how Ancient Greek society was. The Song of Achilles just could've been much better than it turned out to be, and was a reimagining that fell short of what makes the Iliad quite literally, a timeliness classic.

That being said, the book focuses on a romance, whereas the thing that makes their relationship (in both romantic and platonic facets) is the fact that Achilles (in the Iliad) was only present because he wanted to fight. Achilles participated in the Trojan War, not because he wanted to help his fellow Greeks or Menelaus' cause, but because he wanted glory through battle prowess.

After being wronged by Agamemnon, Achilles leaves the fight, tipping the scales in favor of the Trojans. This leads to many Greeks being slaughtered all because Achilles got his feelings hurt. He is compared to a god, because he is as emotional and unpredictable as one. Achilles being gone, is why Patroclus goes to get his armor. The Greeks look up to Achilles–––regardless of all of his dramatics, which is again, explained by the societal values of the time. So, to boost morale, and try to get close to killing Hector to win the war, Patroclus wore the armor. Despite these noble reasons, Patroclus is killed.

Achilles' best friend, the warrior in arms, the lover, was killed, because of Achilles' selfishness. Hector gets killed, his corpse desecrated for nine days, because Achilles wanted revenge. It's Priam, Hector's father, who goes to Achilles, and begs for his son's body back. This is a king, the king of Troy for crying out loud, begging and weeping, for his son's body back, from the monster who has killed some of his other sons and his people. And only then did Achilles realize the gravity of everything he did up to that point. At that moment, he began to weep alongside Priam.

Patroclus was gone because of Achilles’ own hubris. And that, is what makes it tragic.