#both pre-N52 and Rebirth

[sing-me-under]

I just spent like twenty minutes rambling about 80s-90s Booster Gold, and then I accidentally deleted the draft.

Anyway, to summarize, he’s such a fascinating and complex character who’s just constantly suffering. Please please please look into Booster Gold and his goddamn life support mech suit. He lost a whole arm and is constantly at the edge of the death. Even before, he’s just a ball of anxiousness and imposter syndrome buried in spades of Charisma.

Also, his characterization in Blue & Gold feels kind of flat, and I know it’s because it’s like sitcom and comedy and all that. I also know it’s a disservice to Ted Kord to kill him for the sake of Booster’s character development, but his death does renew my interest in Booster’s character. From the moment Booster embraces being the Greatest Hero You’ve Never Heard Of, he is my favorite.

[mysterycitrus]

Quick question about how you decide what comics to care about? When it comes to characterization?

I know there’s comics that are generally considered ooc and no one really incorporates them into their characterizations. (Eg: I skimmed All Star Batman and Robin for fun. I now understand why people call him Crazy Steve, and I’m obviously not going to be taking this particular iteration of Batman and Robin into account when characterizing them.) But other than these really obvious instances, how do you deal with it? Like, I know fans of pre-N52 comics avoided a lot of stuff during that time? But now that we’re in Rebirth? I know that characterization in comic fandoms is always a bit thorny because of comic books as a medium, with all those different writers, timeline resets, etc… But you seem to have a really good handle on that, cause whenever I read any of your stuff and then read a comic, I’m usually like, yeah, same person here. Which I think is a feat! So, do you sort on vibes? Writers? Another metric? Case by case? TLDR: How do you deal when a character canonically says/does something that makes you go, “he would not fucking say that?”

Love your blog! And your writing!!!! Thank you!!!!!

ahh, crazy steve. what a guy (derogatory)

hmmmmmm for me personally if im writing a character i generally identify a “core” comic, regardless of retcons or conflicting characterisation, and then go off that. im reading a lot of bart allen atm so i focused on mark waid and todd dezago and completely ignored everything geoff johns has done with the character. for dick, scott snyder and judd winick are kinda the benchpoint for me, and then i kinda pick and choose (from wolfman, dixon, higgins, etc) what i think fits with that character. jason is easy cause he’s only had two comics worth anyone’s time. weirdly, some of roys best comics are written by devin grayson. so on and so forth.

wrt “he wouldn’t fucking say that” disease of which i am a chronic sufferer, I look back on dick (as an example) and his legacy characterisation, and whether or not it would make sense. not all legacy characterisation is good, mind!! but it’s generally easier to get a good benchmark if u go off a period when writers weren’t terminally on twitter. a lot of it is case by case, and i just map that in my brain

idk like SO much of it is just vibes and trying to create some internal consistency. like u said — there is so much conflicting characterisation and plotting and events that it can be very difficult so u just kinda have to trust ur own intuition. when i first posted persephone and got positive feedback for how i wrote dick I was kinda surprised — cause how i write him tends to clash with his popular depiction in both fandom and many modern comics. ig my real advice if ur writing (or reading) about these characters is to not fear complexity, and be conscious of exactly how racist most comic writers are.

[aalghul]

Saying that what fans (and post-flashpoint) make Jason is what Helena already is always gets one of two reactions: I hate Jason and this is true, I love Jason and this is completely wrong. Everyone's losing with that btw.

Helena and Jason are fundamentally different enough that it can't be exactly true. Helena and Jason's backstories don't have much in common either. Helena's involved betrayal, schemes and fights for power. Jason's was a product of Park Row being continually failed by Gotham. Jason also has a history with the Bats specifically, as the second Robin and a son of the family, that Helena doesn't. There is an appeal in that that's not transferrable; Jason's been a Bat and has had his own various roles since his he was created pre-crisis, not just since his resurrection or since he got a softer role post-flashpoint. He doesn't get to just not be a bat character.

In going "fanon Jason is exactly like Helena" you're also ignoring her time on the JLA and BOP, because remember that fanon thinks Jason sits around staring at his wall angrily until his family tell him to stop being a brainless killer OR runs around half-assing missions with his brothers friends because he has none of his own. It's honestly a disservice to her to pretend that brand of fanon Jason could ever be her.

However, Helena is the one who fought to be trusted by the Bats and compromised on killing because of them (whether that be due to the aforementioned struggle to fit in with them, or, at low points, because they know her identity). Jason did not do this pre-flashpoint. Pre-flashpoint Jason was not asking for most people's trust or for a seat at the table. That's not even to say that any interpretation of Jason that has him reconciling with the Bats is a rip-off of Helena, it's just that Jason put himself on the outskirts of the family for a reason, and this won't be changed just because they are willing to have him back conditionally.

I'm not going to sit here talking about all the similarities and differences, or how they got tangled along the way. I just want to say that people who act like Jason was dealt a good hand by being given Helena's characterization by fanon and post-flashpoint are never going to be able to prove their point without disrespecting Helena's character because you're focusing on the wrong thing (something that isn't even true). People who refuse to accept that the particular Jason they're talking about (fanon, rebirth onwards/partially n52) is a character that has heavy similarities to Helena's position pre-flashpoint are missing out on who Jason and Helena both have been at other points in time. And they're pissing each other off in the process.

[zahri-melitor]

Recent Reads: Batbooks to December 2020

Batgirl 2016: Let's run through all the writers.

Hope Larsen (#1-23): I think my most overwhelming reaction to this run was at least it's not Brendan Fletcher. I think Larsen was still struggling with writing Babs as way too young during her run, though it was at least feeling like her early-mid 20s rather than an 18 year old. In terms of direction, it felt a bit aimless at times; it was still trying to find a direction to take Babs in. The best parts of the entire run were a single issue where Babs rescues some kidnapped animals with one of the kids from her coding class and Selina, and a flashback story with Dick looking at their earlier days, that ended with something that ends up turning up a lot over 2016: Barbara's implant shorting out.

There's a constant drumbeat all the way from the end of the n52 run through the 2016 run about Barbara facing the fact that her spinal implant won't last forever, and multiple occasions damaging it. It's clearly a lot of writer time spent setting up justifications to move Babs back into a wheelchair if anyone would sign off on transitioning her back to Oracle full time.

As we all know, that still hasn't happened, but the intent is there; DC editorial just has to commit and set the style on what Barbara should and should not be allowed to do in costume.

Mairghread Scott (#25-36): best writer on Batgirl for Babs since Simone, without a doubt. She does a lot of the work towards putting Babs in a situation where she's accepted she likely only has so long left as Batgirl; she writes the most adult and mature DickBabs since probably Chuck Dixon; and she's clearly fond of pre-Crisis Babs, because she's the one that brings back the concepts of redoing both Babs' relationship with Jason Bard, but also Babs' involvement in political campaigning. It's a run that feels like the intent is to provide a modern version of Babs' past as Batgirl for when she is Oracle again, because the history that n52 gave her was so minimal.

Cecil Castellucci (#37-50): Better than Larsen, not as good as Scott. A lot of this is just continuing playing out the rewritten political history and romance with Jason Bard. Castellucci's just a noticeably weaker writer, and less aware of what's going on with her character elsewhere; Babs is fairly involved in the background of Event Leviathan, which was happening at the start of Castellucci's run, but there is absolutely no acknowledgement that she's just been deep undercover and helping to betray the organisation from the inside. Ends with Babs and Jason Bard being fairly serious about each other and the two having somewhat dealt with what the absolutely appalling events of Batman Eternal and Batgirl causing Bard's leg injury mean in terms of Bard's feelings towards Batgirl and Babs' guilt towards Bard. Ah well. I'm sure they will have a lovely breakup off panel.

Batman and the Outsiders 2019: I am also going to include Bryan Hill's 'Tec run (#983-987) which is the prequel and testing ground for this run.

I enjoyed this, but I was also surprised by this run. I guess I went in expecting for Jeff and Tatsu to be more established and confident heroes than how they were written here. My brain was importing 'these two have been teammates since the 1980s', people Bruce knows well and would trust to mentor two of his sidekicks who needed more personal attention. And yet this run was about the beginnings of that relationship with each other and with Bruce.

I think as a run it had a lot of heart, and gave more depth and rounding to both Duke and Cass' characters in the context of Rebirth. It was interesting in what threads it picked up from both of their earlier stories in particularly 'Tec and All-Star.

I also note the continuity of Shiva in this title with how she was characterised in Tynion's 'Tec. I think Ink is right that this Shiva is interested in the concept of what being Cass' mother means, in comparison to how Shiva's interest in Cass in post-Crisis was far more focused on Cass' potential as a fighter, weapon developed by David Cain, and person who could defeat her; rather than their actual biological connection.

It's interesting, as it's got echoes of how Shiva is fascinated by both Dinah and Tim in terms of she finds them interesting and compelling and she's drawn to push them to be better; and while she did have elements of that with Cass before and not just in Cass' Potential To Kill Her, it now also has overtones of what does being your mother mean to us both? This is a Shiva that I think would still be hung up on Cass even if Cass didn't have the fighting skill she does, which was not nearly as obvious in preboot.

Catwoman 2018 (Joëlle Jones): I could probably subtitle this 'Selina finally properly gets her Rebirth moment'.

I haven't read more than a few issues of the n52 Catwoman run, but I understand it to have been one that went some divergent places. Jones takes the Selina that King had been writing, and goes "well the thing is, you didn't actually ground her in terms of Which Selina Is This sufficiently for her history" and...gives her audience a Selina that is parts Mindy Newell, parts Ed Brubaker, with a sprinkling of Jim Balent and a desire to be doing her own thing and walking that tightrope of crime v crimefighting.

I don't mind Villa Hermosa, as a place to put Selina while she figured herself out after running from the idea of marriage. It was a run intended to reset and regroup, and that's exactly what it did. The occasional fills from Ram V during the period showed the promise of how the following run can be even better, as did his parts of Joker War.

Nightwing 2016 (The Ric Grayson Era): So this really has two parts to it.

There's the first part, #50-58, which goes through 4 writers, 7 artists and accomplishes exactly nothing other than establishing what to my eye looks like a set of dictates from On High: Dick must have no memories and push away his family; Dick must go by Ric; Ric's not allowed to act like Dick or be a hero.

The fact it's plotted by Scott Lobdell certainly does not help the situation, but this is the section that is clearly written with the intention that we might be stuck with this for the long haul. Zack Kaplan's writing on #57-58 works really hard to try and get Barbara (who along with Alfred has been the people really trying to reach out to Dick) to accept that the situation has changed.

And then...Dan Jurgens comes in from #59-#77, and some stability returns to the title. I tend to regard Jurgens as one of those writers who DC can just rely upon to turn his hand to anything and produce consistent house style work. But in this case, I honestly think he is the one who finally pitched "I have a way to make this story work". I don't actually think there was a plan for what was happening until Jurgens took over.

He picks up the threads he's been dealt (Dick has a wiped memory; there are four cops & firefighters running around in Nightwing costumes; Dick has helped them out in an emergency) and blows up the city a little so Dick's natural leadership qualities shine through: and then he gets underway with his actual plans. This is all the Court of Owls' fault. They're the ones who exploited the opportunity of the head injury and secretly brainwashed Dick to forget his past.

It's a cop out, and there is SO much brainwashing over the course of the next 13 issues (Dick ends up with three separate versions of his teen years in his head), but it's clear from the moment all this starts that there is a path out of here. Dick will get his memories back.

This must have been epically miserable to read while the issues were coming out, because it would have felt even more lost when you were getting it dripfed out monthly. But it does turn around from #62 onwards and become a story with an actual trajectory.

Also once the actual story starts, Jurgens manages to get a consistent artist in Ronan Cliquet to work on the title. Which also makes an incredible difference because the art style isn't ricocheting back and forth wildly anymore. I had to chart out how bad the art situation got:

Just look at the Lobdell section. This was clearly something nobody wanted to be involved in and where they were struggling to get it to print.

It's unpleasant and it's probably one of the most miserable eras of Nightwing as a title that I've read, but I have a lot of respect for Dan Jurgens after reading it. Like. That was a massive hole he had to dig the title out of.

Detective Comics (James Robinson, #988-993): This is just a really nice little Bruce Wayne, Jim Gordon and Harvey Dent story, looking at how their past working together affects their present, and setting up a bunch of back and forth about what Harvey and what Two-Face knows. I don't think it does anything particularly revolutionary, but it's just one of those stories that give you a window into how interesting he is as a villain and at causing conflict.

Detective Comics (Peter J. Tomasi, #994-1033): If I were going to particularly comment on something that stood out for me about this run, it's the ways that Tomasi's writing reminded me of Paul Dini's 'Tec run in places, particularly how he focused in on stories with a specific Rogue, and kept changing which one. It wasn't the same one-shot episodical style, but it spent a lot of time with different villains and so made a pleasant counterpart title to Batman, even if it was still very much a Bruce focused title.

I think it got bogged down for a bit too long in the Victor Fries story, and I also think there were a couple of moments where it was very clear that Tomasi was mad about what was happening elsewhere to his Special Little Boy (Damian) and tried to counteract that in the title, with accompanying return of the primacy of Damian over any of Bruce's other kids, but it was a decent run. One that you could pick up any trade in the run as a stand alone read and be able to follow along, which honestly is valuable.

Batman (James Tynion IV, #86-105): Tynion hasn't left the title yet, but I want to discuss it, particularly up to #100. The most interesting thing about this whole run is that it has been, from its very inception, a run that wasn't supposed to have happened. King was supposed to have Batman to #100 but got cut off at #85. Tynion was then a temporary fill on the title and supposed to hand it over after #100 to John Ridley for the Fox family taking over as Batman in all of the 5G storytelling. Then Didio got fired, COVID hit, everything got restructured, and Tynion had to pivot from working up to an event that had been designed to tie off a lot of storytelling and go 'so where do I want to take Bruce Wayne?'

Honestly, I've loved it. The first thing I want to point out is the very clear pivot from 'Tec: Tynion used 'Tec the way it should be used; to tell family and wider universe stories. He therefore took the opportunity with getting Batman to really focus in on Bruce; breaking him down and building him back up. He picks up the plot threads that King has left hanging (Alfred's death; the effect on the city from Bane being in control and Rogues running wild) and sets up to build an event, because Batman #100 was accompanied by anniversary issues in Nightwing #75, Batgirl #50 and Catwoman #25 all within a month. It's a situation that did deserve something big. Four of the big Rogues (Joker; Riddler; Penguin; Catwoman) are reasonably pissed about where Bane left things. Joker does want to stamp his authority on the city and betray the others. The whole run up to #100 is the set up of Joker War and then executing it, including using Alfred's death to specifically isolate Bruce and push everyone else away (because where would we be without one of the base Batman plots), and so in the aftermath, launching into a small stakes plot introducing Ghost-Maker feels like a relief.

It's just structurally really impressive work. Tynion can turn a tale and he can pace a story, which is a relief after King's run, which while it did contain a whole bunch of highs that I enjoyed, was also extraordinarily uneven and beset particularly with pacing issues.

I wasn't hugely optimistic for this run, as I knew it was going to be a lot of Joker, and it's not talked about in the same way his 'Tec run is, but I have to admit I was impressed. I think Tynion's just one of those writers who really understands how to tell stories in a shared universe in a way that tracks other titles, acknowledges past ones, and leaves stories in a good position for future writers, and we always need more of those in comics.

[bisupergirl]

supergirl rebirth is annoying to me for cwsg related reasons, but also because n52 kara did not have to be changed so drastically in order to fit in as a more "traditional" supergirl. like at most she needed a new costume and a secret identity (and i'd change zor el + alura's characterizations, which is something that sg rebirth didn't even really do), but other than that she really was not that different or worse off from previous iterations of supergirl—especially towards the end of her series. she was living in new york among humans! she wanted to build a normal life for herself! she had a job! something that both pre and post crisis kara had done! it would've been so simple to build something off of that in her rebirth series instead of aging her down for the millionth time and cw-ifying her.

n52 supergirl has such a funny reputation of being this needlessly edgy grimdark version of the character when, in reality, the series just let her experience the full range of emotions that losing krypton and everyone she's ever known and loved would cause her in a way that hadn't really been done before—AND it still let her be kind and compassionate. it's like. 30% kara being sad that krypton was destroyed, 30% kara being angry at how she's treated by humans and her authority figures (zor, alura, and clark), and 40% kara forming deep bonds and friendships with people with similar experiences as her and protecting people around her from danger because she WANTS to !! crazy to me that dc traded all that in for fucking CW SUPERGIRL..... anyway im not mad or anything.

[aqua-dan]

What would you write if DC hired you to make a tempest/garth comic? What would be the genre, mood, setting, etc? Would it be plot focused or lore focused?

Hoo boy, this is a fun question! I'll be honest, there are just about a billion different stories that I would absolutely LOVE to write for Garth. He works perfectly in ensemble casts, has such a wide variety of powers and functions, and is fantastic at being the balance to a lot of more hot-headed characters. I also think he works well in introspective works and duo comics. At the end of the day, if played right, I think he could work in just about any story you plop him into.

This is why I have such a difficult time narrowing down just what I'd like to write for DC if asked. But I narrowed it down to three options. I think there are some other Garth fans who have similar-ish ideas (go figure people obsessed with the same character would have some overlapping opinions, hey!), so I'm sorry for anything that sounds redundant.

(1) The first and most challenging thing I'd have to deal with is what to do with the N52 and Rebirth stuff. Since DC isn't at a full reboot point currently, I doubt I'd be allowed to toss out everything from Rebirth… even if I REALLY want to. So I suppose I'd try to do my best to find a way to roll it in without affecting the pre-flashpoint canon. That is a difficult task, and the only way I can really think to remedy it is,, uh… false or altered memories.

I hate doing that kind of stuff, but I swear it would be necessary in this case. Ideally, I wouldn't have to do any of this crap and we could just re-instate old canon fully, but that probably wouldn't happen. Using this, we might be able to work backward in terms of lore for Garth and then move forward once that settles. Utilizing the vague hand-wave-y merging of things due to Dark Crisis, we could give Garth some of his old memories back but still have a whole bunch of things that are purposely left blank for him to go discover. Maybe some things that he thought were his reality suddenly aren't. At least, he can't find any evidence of that being the case. But what he does find are things that keep leading him back into what the old lore established. He could re-meet people he used to know that have been currently written out of canon (BRING BACK LETIFOS, PLEASE) and uncover his full self, as well as all the things that went down before.

I think this series might start out as a solo, but rather soon it would add other cast members. Or a rotating cast, depending on where he needs to go to figure things out. I prefer when Garth has other people to play off of, so these other members would also receive a lot of story and progression.

This wouldn't be played out as a detective thing, however. As cute as Garth would look wearing a detective's hat, that isn't really his thing. This story would take on a bit of a high fantasy, thriller, mystery… horror vibe? It would both re-establish and elaborate on his personal lore regarding Shayeris and Atlantis as a whole, and then go even further and have the story be a vehicle for explaining and adding a lot of extremely cool Atlantean lore.

I feel that this might take on a bit of a… ah what's it called,, Week by Week format?? Loosely, however. I don't need every issue to be a self contained story (although some would be!) But essentially each story is slightly more self contained, but it still builds on the last story (unless it's a multi issue arc!) And then culminates into some sort of big moment that has ripple effects throughout the rest of the DC universe.

The vibe for this would change a little bit depending on the location he's currently in/who the current rotational characters are, but mostly, I'd go for something a little spooky and mysterious. There's danger on the horizon, and you keep swimming closer to it.

(2) My second idea is also in the vein of working backward. I'm a HUGE fan of prequels and things that fit neatly into blank spots in canon. This is why I think it would be great if I could go back and elaborate on Garth's backstory. There's only been… one canon(ish) attempt at combining the pre and post crisis backstories for Garth (found within Devin Grayson's "Inheritance."). She brings up the idea of combo canons in a similar way to what I have described, where it's a little wishy-washy and false memories-like. But it's also not what I'd ideally do.

On a personal level, I love the "feral child" idea. I'm am a huge fan of the survival genre, and so the whole thought of living alone at the bottom of the ocean and fending for oneself appeals to me greatly! I do not care if that's not realistic to how irl feral children work. I will make it work here.

The whole point of this series would be to be a mirror series to Tempest (1996). It would also be a four issue mini-series that establishes the early groundwork for Garth's story later on. In this, the post-crisis backstory remains largely untouched. He was abandoned to die of exposure as a baby because of his purple eyes. In this version, Atlan would indeed be pulling strings from the shadows and causing certain things to happen or not to happen. Essentially, making sure Garth lives while otherwise allowing him to be a feral child. He might interject random bits of knowledge/influence into Garth's brain as he sees fit to lead him to where he wants him to be later on. However, unlike Devin's version, I want Garth to have (or regain if we are working with the story I mentioned above), as many memories from this part of his life as possible. Different people remember different amounts of their childhood based on a variety of factors, and this often includes how well they are able to communicate with others. I, personally, can remember just about every major event since I was two years old. For Garth, this could be incredibly different considering his only mode of communication was telepathy with fish. Regardless, I think it would be SUPER interesting if he COULD remember this part of his life to a degree. I love the thought of him having emotional guilt later down the line for scavenging already dead fish or other sea life (as I don't believe he'd eat them after he became aware of the morality surrounding it), and carrying that with him. I also want some very tense moments where he is put in very dangerous situations that make you question if he'll survive (even though you technically know he will.) This could be a way to add back in his fear of fish as well if it's due to a traumatic experience with one/a school of them.

I want this whole time period to be very physical. As I said, I LOVE the survival genre, so exploring the different situations he could have ended up in alongside the mystical, otherworldly elements would be something I would adore writing about!

Overarchingly, this would also be very lore focused, and the vibe would be… desolate. I want it to feel lonely, isolating, and frightening.

(3) Pulling away from the aqua-genre a little bit, I'd love to write a story that is more firmly planted on the surface-world for Garth to be a part of. As I said earlier in this post, Garth has the potential to fit into multiple different places, and I don't think he should be relegated to only things to do with the underwater world. His relationship with the Titans is incredibly important and definitely should not be ignored. This is his most firm connection to things on land, but I wouldn't be against branching out into things such as JLD either!

That said, I think that it would be so much fun to write something for him that expands on those already existing relationships he has with the Titans.

I don't want to say TOO much about it since, well, I am currently writing something using this as a concept, but the general idea behind it is to take already existing relationships he has and expand upon them. If you are already familiar with Garth, you know how important the Titans are to him, …and how unimportant he is to the Titans.

Okay, this is only half true, as Garth does consider these people some of the most important people in his life-- and he is one of the three founding members of the team-- but the unfortunate fact is that they don't consider him nearly as important as he considers them. There's a lot of love and nostalgia, but his relationships to many of them are not very well expanded on simply because he wasn't there for the relationships to develop further.

So, personally, I'd LOVE to see an expansion upon one or more of these relationships he has formed through the team. To do this, I'd really love to see a duo comic. Garth may not work long-term as THE main character, but I think he could be fantastic as a part of a duo. This allows him to have someone to play off of. In my personal version of this, I have him playing off of Roy.

As many know, Roy and Garth have a tumultuous relationship. There are so many misconceptions and misunderstandings between the two of them. They clash in such an interesting way. In some ways, they both think that the other hates them. But this isn't true. (This already isn't as intense of a feeling as they've had in the past, but using the residual hurts could be a great jumping off point.) They have a relationship that COULD evolve, if only they took the time to talk and learn more about each other. This is precisely where I would love to start writing and add to that whole concept. People who are "friends," but… barely friends. People who have such a complex shared history and yet know so little about each other. People who are SO important to each other but unintentionally push one another away. I want the opportunity to expand on it.

In my fic, the two of them end up working together on accident. It's situational. Something that may not have happened if even a moment was missed.

Basically, I would love for it to be a fun duo adventure where plot, lore, and emotional storytelling combine into a unique narrative that helps progress the characters to a really interesting future point while also incorporating all of the important things from their pasts.

As I said, I don't want to spoil things too much. But the vibes are more action-adventure-y. It would mix a lot of physical and mystical elements and rely on flipping the tone back and forth between emotionally heavy, silly, suspenseful, and urgent.

Basically, I want to figure out a way to have fun with the current version of Garth. I think that SO many of the previous things NEED to be reinstated (and most of the current stuff needs to be tossed out), but at the same time, I want to figure out a way to use what's there to my advantage. It's difficult and not always my favorite, but I still think there is potential!

So uhhh, yeah.. that's what I would do if I had to take things from their current point and create some stories. Sorry for how long this got lol 😅

[ectonurites]

hey do you know of like... those thick combination-comics? like the volume books with multiple comics. do you know of any good ones for jason todd/red hood for beginners. i want to get my recently-into-dc friend something jason related for his birthday ❤️❤️. also if you don't know please invite your followers to suggest some!!

Ah yes, trade paperbacks! Imo the good basics in that format for Jason would be Under The Red Hood and/or Red Hood and The Outlaws Vol. 1: Dark Trinity! Both of these are things I own and pretty solid to read standalone—UTRH of course for pre-n52 Jason and RHATO for post-n52/modern Jason ('sam that's the rebirth one not the n52 one' yeah the n52 outlaws is so much worse just go to rebirth).

But also yeah, if anyone else has other suggestions pls feel free to reply/add on!

[cannibalisticcorpse]

do you have any recommendations for dick and jason (together or separate, both is fine) comics for someone who’s just starting to read them? i have some knowledge of the characters and batfam and i’ve read several batman comics, but i never really got into the robins-after-they-were-robins comis so i’d like to start with dick and jason…thank you so much :)

so firstly, i deffo reason waaay more jason than i do dick. most of my dick recs will be things i haven't finished reading or haven't read more than like 3 random back issues of XD

dick:

any nightwing solo is a good place to start (okay, not any, but you can find comics on readcomiconline and with an adblocker the site is useable. peruse the different nightwing runs, if it sucks drop it)

i've heard spyral is good, i think the comic might just be called "grayson"

pretty much any titans comic pre-2003 would be dick grayson (typically as robin, but not always)

there are some post 2003 titans comics with dick too

i like "the titans" (1999) the most, personally (my tip for finding the right titans run, because there are so many, is to look at the font of the title. then look at the author)

honestly if you're fine just jumping in and figuring it out as you go (which you kinda need to be), i'd sooo heavily rec that run to start you with

and, of course, there's the outsiders run from 2009 with dick and roy <3

jason:

i dont really have any robin-era jason recs, but he wasn't robin for too long, so if you're interested it's not too hard to read some!

death in the family (comic where he dies. it's weird and also islamophobic iirc, buut it's important to his backstory. not too long. im a slow slow slow heavily dyslexic reader and it only took me 2 days)

under the red hood (comic where he comes back. a longer read, but VERY fun. villain jason and competent jason. you understand the framework for all of his post-robin/post-resurrection drive)

lost days (also pretty long. i go back and forth on if i personally liked it. but it covers the time between him coming back to life and him returning to gotham- because he stayed gone even after he came back)

red hood and the outlaws n52 (i think it came out in 2011)- this comic sucks, but it's kinda fun! i really enjoy it. if you're fanfic-inclined you might like it (because it prompts a lot of fun ideas without ever presenting very many on its own and never doing anything with them). it's the origin of the jason/roy thing which i am so obsessed with

red hood/arsenal (continuation of the last comic, now without The Girl.. buut kori was written really misogynistically so, congrats kori on getting free

then there's red hood and the outlaws rebirth (which is a different team and some ppl like this comic more), then there's red hood: outlaw, i forget if there's more or whatever the order is. there's also a webtoon with the same naming scheme. im collecting the physical comic, you'd think i'd know this. but these runs are LONG.

for current comics, there's "task force z" which came out like a year or two ago, and then "joker: the man who stopped laughing" which is mostly abt the joker but also about jason hunting him and trying to kill him

jason & dick, together:

honestly i dont read too much stuff with the both of them in it? idk. jason doesn't team up with many batfam ppl on the reg, i guess. like they're never really On A Team together. most of their comics together are from Events. but dick appears in task force z, a little red hood and the outlaws too, and jason is in a little bit of outsiders. like they have cameos, i mean.

there was a nightwing annual (i think 2021) about jason & dick teaming up.

they were both in robin war (but that's the conclusion of "we are robin") (not too long, i think it took me about a week to read all 3 paperbacks)

other ppl feel free to add on!

[evilwickedme]

I'm only just getting into the comics and haven't read much yet, but is Pit Madness an actual thing in canon or just widespread fanon? Bc yeah, I don't like it either but there's so much of it I assumed it was rooted in the text

I've never seen it in a Jason comic, although I don't exactly have an encyclopedic knowledge of his appearances (reminder that I'm doing my best, but I've only been reading DC comics for less than a year). I understand that it's mentioned in comics related to Ra's Al Ghul, but the Pit is used rarely both in and out of text and is one of those things that works however the writer wants it to work.

I can tell you that in the comics I've read that are pre-N52 Jason is extremely angry, but he's also calm and calculated about it, and in n52 comics that I've read he's extremely angry, but mostly reads as impulsive, not sadistic. I haven't gotten to post rebirth Jason comics yet except for a few panels here and there and the Robins: Being Robin comic which was pretty bad in general don't read it, but my impression is they haven't stopped trying to retcon him into "the angry robin" (which, uh, fuck that) but have leaned more into his emotional side as a core aspect of him in recent years, which I in general approve of. Either way, I have never seen a mention of pit rage, only of him being thrown in the Pit to heal his medically impossible walking coma (but this is comics and he gets healed by green goo, so let's not take medical accuracy too seriously).

I understand the appeal of pit madness in two ways: the first is that it makes for an easy motivator. You throw him in the pit, he gets Angry™, and you can use that to tell a pretty interesting story (Red Robin Hood likens it to an addiction, for example, which I found really interesting actually).

But the second is the one I suspect is more common. I think people are uncomfortable with liking a character who is genuinely unremorseful about killing. It directly negates their values. On the one hand, it's super badass when Jason throws that duffel bag of heads onto the table of drug lords in the beginning of under the red hood - on the other hand, gross, right? This is why so many pit rage stories focus on him "getting better". Whether that means being literally magically healed from the pit's effects or if that means learning that killing is wrong, actually, the pit's influence, by the end of the fic, is gone, and the batfam forgives him for all the murder because it wasn't REALLY Jason, it was the Pit!

But like... No it isn't? Like there is zero evidence of the Pit ever influencing any of Jason's actions. Like, if anything, one of my favorite things about UTRH as a story is the fact that Jason is calm, calculated, AND IN THE RIGHT. Not that Batman is necessarily wrong - I mean, I think his particular reasoning is stupid, it's not a fucking slippery slope for most of us, but I also think that murder is, you know, wrong. But Jason is also right - he came back to life to find that nothing had changed in the batfam and Gotham, or if it had, it had changed for the worse! The Joker has done nothing but become more and more threatening as a villain and Bruce has done nothing to amend his methods of dealing with the Joker at all.

Jason's solution is simple, elegant - kill the Joker, he can no longer hurt anyone else. And in a system like Gotham's where corruption makes both rehabilitation and straight up locking someone away for good impossibilities, the genuinely most logical solution is to kill the Joker. Not necessarily the most moral from your or my point of view. But one that makes sense when you look at it through Jason's eyes as a deeply traumatized victim.

I think that if the Pit really had influenced Jason, the best way to use it as a narrative device is as another source of trauma - something that I have seen extremely occasionally in fics. Not as something that influenced his actions, necessarily, but maybe as something that was forced upon him, a kind of loss of bodily autonomy.

But at the end of the day, most of the time the point of pit madness in Jason Todd/batfam fic is to excuse extreme abusive behavior and make it all okay in the end, and I think it's because so many of the people writing him don't understand why and how he uses extreme violence in the ways he does and who feel extremely uncomfortable being fans of someone who genuinely believes that some people deserve to die.

[thefaeriefeatherdark]

Which version of Gar and Raven are you talking about. Because Pre New 52 and Post New 52 Gar and Raven are essentially different characters, updated Backstories, designs, and characterizations. PreN52 they had little chemistry, until Teen Titans Vol.3 where the idea of a romance between them was first floated. Post N52 had been teasing a romance between Raven and Beast Boy since they first met, way back in 2013 in Ravengers #12. And while New 52 has since been shuttered, most of the continuity has remained the same, with some preN52 continuity stapled on top, frankly. In which I'd say that Raven and Gar have a lot of chemistry together.

The Pre and Post-Crisis versions of the characters.

While N52 is sort of still in continuity it is also sort of out of continuity.

The New 52 specifically had the Kents be dead and this has clearly been undone (unfortunately).

Furthermore Lian didn't exist in the N52, nor did the New Teen Titans. Most of these things were restored slowly piece by piece, but a lot of it is a result of the Rebirth era (which has all other kinds of fucked up things like leaning heavily into the conservative Superman).

The continuity post IF says all things are in continuity but that seems to be a "you can write what you want as the continuity" rather than a hard line literally everything being in continuity.

I'd argue any view that claims the N52 continuity is the primary one seems to miss what was actually established in N52 continuity.

If the N52 continuity was the main basis for things that would utterly change 90% of the characters ages, the original founding of the Teen Titans, Superboy's origin, whether Tim Drake was Robin, the existence of YJ, if the NTT ever existed.

The only character who really seems to keep their N52 Continuity is Cyborg and even that is in the weirdest way possible for half of it.

It'd be far more accurate to say that characters have the continuity of their past few years of comics, but with the restored continuity and origins of Pre-Crisis (along with some minor Post-crisis elements).

Donna is a good example as she is now once again a child saved by Wonder Woman and brought to Paradise Island.

My point is that Garfield and Raven's relationship is entirely an invention of the TT '03 shows fandom and attempts to tie into that rather than any of the actual characterization they had in the first 23 years of Raven's existence (Longer for Changeling who is a Doom Patrol character originally).

Also the Raven of both the 03 show and the attempts to capitalize on that version have been incredibly boring (also once again more like Lilith).

The entire current status quo is based on the NTT stuff being in continuity so saying that the n52 is the main continuity (where the NTT didn't exist) is kind of just untrue.

[striveattemptfail]

rho #2

rho #18

rho #27

what i can gather re: bizz's story to this point:

bizarro both created and destroyed bizarro world

he created and populated it with other bizarros like himself bc he felt like no one understood him

bizarro world was earth's counterpart, including a happy superfamily and dual identity life for bizarro (ie: "not clark kent")

during this period he made a lot of mistakes, with one panel implying that he even made a deal with lex luthor (who was presumably president at the time)

bizarro destroyed it bc he knew, ultimately, that everything—his planet and everything he was doing—was fake

what he regrets most is abandoning and killing his family

some things to glean from this:

in this webtoon: bizarro world = htrae from pre-crisis/earth-one, NOT bizarro world from post-crisis/pre-n52

however, it very much strays from htrae's ending (which involves a very convoluted plot ft. the phantom zone and also mr mxyzptlk that i still don't quite understand)

(the tl;dr is that a wizard began destroying htrae, and the bizarros living on it were glad to see the apocalypse occur, so in a very twisted move, bizarro lois and clark used a rocket to shoot bizarro superboy into the planet's core to finally destroy it, and when the planet exploded bizarro was beheaded in the chaos to land at clark's feet to utter his last words before dying)

(i swear this is real and imo it is the least complicated part of the story)

compare this to bizarro world from post-crisis/pre-n52, where that planet's counterparts were very literally opposite to new earth: loiz (bizarro lois) was miserable and hated bizarro (unlike clark and lois' loving relationship)

but afaik, bizarro world was never destroyed during new earth's existence

now, it's clear that the webtoon is drawing inspiration from htrae for bizarro's happy family life

but it's also drawing characteristics of bizarro from post-n52/prime earth with his angst and inner feelings

(yes, i stan brainzarro. and tbh rebirth bizz is still somehow a good character despite lobdell writing him?? a miracle tbh)

it's also very clear that [webtoon] bizarro intends to make things right, or at least do right by his family now that he has a second chance

rho #27

all that being said: i'm curious to see how this'll be resolved

it'll almost certainly be rushed like a printing house during deadlines, and given the previous arcs it'll also be a disappointing ending despite having a really interesting start, but i am looking forward to seeing how webtoon bizarro continues to blend different continuities/character histories together. he's been the most successful among the outlaws in terms of story and characterization, and i've been pleasantly surprised by the direction taken for him thus far

don't fcuk this up patrick young istg if bizarro gets the short shrift in this webtoon i am legally claiming him from dc

[thequiver]

Do we have a confirmed order of oldest to youngest with the Arrow kids? I'm reasonably sure that Roy is the oldest and I want to say Emiko is the youngest but idk.

Okay so with Pre- N52 canon the answer is YES

From oldest to youngest it’s:

Roy, Connor, Mia, Robert II

However things get odd in N52 with the erasure of different family members, and then Rebirth still lacks Connor and Mia, Robert II was seemingly completely removed from existence, but in N52 and Rebirth we know it’s Roy and then Emiko

To combine both timelines and going solely on ages we last saw them we have from oldest to youngest:

Roy, Connor, Mia, Emiko (who I still hold as being trans with a deadname of Robert)

[aingeal98]

So I may have created a Cass masterlist cataloguing every single comic appearance she's had and how many issues she's interacted with every single character in. And after completing it up until the end of Fear State/start of Batgirls I may have also started combing through ao3 and creating the fanfiction library of Alexandra for her to seperate the good fics from the rest of the stuff clogging up her tag where she's either a side character who gets mentioned twice as being out on patrol with Steph or ooc mindlessly supportive of whoever the main focus of the fic is.

Some people stress clean. Apparently I make stress lists and statistics. On the bright side once I actually finish it I'll have two very detailed Cass reading lists for both canon and fanon. And also a bunch of random statistics that serve no real purpose other than being fun to know. For instance, pre New 52 the characters who Cass shared the most comics with were in order: Bruce, Babs, Tim, Dick and David Cain. Steph made it to sixth place pre N52 and is currently 5th after the end of rebirth era.

[zahri-melitor]

For the ask game, 4 and 24 for Barbara Gordon

4. How many people I ship them with

Well there's Dick/Babs. Dick and Barbara are probably my favourite canon couple in DC, for the way they balance and complement each other. And as much as they push at each other at times, they both enjoy being challenged by the other, and they've grown further together over time. It's how Dick always looks for Babs' hand at the end of the world. It's I don't like to be pushed and if you jump I'm there to catch you. (It's the fear of being pushed and the fear of missing the catch). It's the way neither of them are ever willing to name what's between them because they're both too afraid of if they're accidentally hurt by the other. It's the way Dick centres and calms himself by talking to Babs and he looks at her like she's a sunrise. It's how Dick can be a brake on Babs' obsessions and get her to relax. It's how lost they both become when the other is hurt or gone. It's how they can lounge around in a honeymoon suite discussing what they'd want in a marriage and kids without calling it a relationship. I adore them.

There's Dinah/Babs, because if there is one person Babs wants to have at the other end of a commline, following her orders? It's Dinah. And from experience at this point she trusts that when Dinah goes off script it's for a reason (even as it drives her wild). It's the way Babs orders Dinah around and Dinah enjoys it. It's the way they're so emotionally wrapped up in each other. It's Babs' tantrum over Dinah getting married and moving; it's the way she welcomed her back after Dinah broke up with Ollie. It's how Dinah was ready to fight Amazons and gods to save Barbara and hide what she was doing from Babs if it would save her life. It's the fact that working for Babs talked Dinah down from running into dangerous situations without backup when Ollie died. I love them so much and I delight in every time they're on page together, being thick as thieves.

There's Ted/Babs, which largely amuses me because they're both so very into the other's mind and programming/engineering skills, while also immediately concluding they're better off friends. They have a crush on each other's brain and I think that's incredibly cute.

And there's Babs/Jason Bard, which I am quietly fond of because it started out as a default relationship in pre-Crisis, turned them into interesting exes in preboot, flipped their relationship into something horrifically unnecessary in n52, and tried to repair it to a point where they could mend fences in Rebirth. I don't think Babs and Jason make a particularly good couple. I do love them as exes however, and it was actually my favourite stage when they were both physically disabled investigators ignoring people telling them they couldn't do their jobs.

24. What do you think is a secret they have that they never told anyone?

Amy Beddoes trying to shoot Clifford Carmichael, come on down.

I am certain Babs has never mentioned this moment to anyone else. The only person aware of what she got up to in that moment was Amanda Waller, and the Wall has never held it over her head.

Otherwise: Barbara has indeed run a DNA test on herself to establish what her biological parentage is. She's too much of a control freak to not have. She's seen the results, swore to herself that she would not let them affect her relationship with Jim, and continues to treat Jim like the father he's been to her since the day she came home with him. (She's still quietly cut up that she had to check) (No I don't know what the results said. I don't think it really matters)

[adashofheroism]

Bio & Verses

Name: Timothy “Tim” Jackson Drake(-Wayne)

Alias: Robin, Red Robin

Age: 16-17 (though I do rp him as anything between 5 and 25+, depending on verse) [x]

Height: 4′7″- 5′3″ [x]

Hair Colour: Black

Eye Colour: Blue

Face Claim: None. I haven’t found one that fulfill my image of Tim, but he has a rather soft childlike face. Looks a few years younger than his chronological age. [this is the closest I’ve found]

Birthday: 19 July

Gender: Male

Sexuality: Demisexual

Romantic Orientation: Panromantic

Relationship Status: Verse dependent (though you will see him talking about his bf Emilio “Lio” Rosali)

Nationality: American

Location: Gotham City

Family: Janet Drake (mother, diseased), Jack Drake (father, status is time dependent), Bruce Wayne (mentor/adoptive father), Dick Grayson (adoptive brother), Jason Todd (adoptive brother), Cassandra Cain (adoptive sister), Damien Wayne (adoptive brother).

Skills & Abilities: Acrobatics, martial art, tactical and strategical thinking, highly intelligent, multilingual, computer science, escapologist.

Health & Disabilites: Depression, anxiety, PTSD and asplenia (from the age of 17). I also hc Tim as being autistic.

Personality: Curious, analytical, hard-working, self-sacrificing, emotionally reserved, independent, introverted, kind, a little awkward and nerdy, prone to brooding and contemplation, self-confident, but with low self-esteem, prone to second-guessing himself.

Headcanon 🔗

Spotify Playlist 🎵 

Short Bio/History:

History is mostly that of New Earth Tim (pre N52 & Rebirth). Besides being 13 when he contacts Bruce (or rather Dick, if we go by the comics), the different ages, when mentioned, are fluid.

At the age of five, Tim’s parents brings him to Haly’s Circus. There he meets Dick for the first time and also, unfortunately, witness the death of Dick’s parents. The event is going to give him nightmares for years. This is also when his interest in Batman starts.

When watching a video of Batman and Robin on the news, he recognize the quadruple somersault performed by Robin, something Tim knew only three people could do. With this piece of information and knowing that Bruce Wayne adopted Dick Grayson, Tim, at the age of nine, figures out the identities of Batman and Robin. It was after this that his interest in Batman and Robin grew to an obsession and as often as he was able too, which was more often than it should have been, he tried to follow them on patrol, taking photos and documenting what went on. This continued even after Jason became Robin. Tim also began acrobatics training and aikido.

Noticing that Batman is getting more reckless and aggressive after Jason’s death, Tim approaches Dick to try and convince him to go back to being Robin. It doesn’t go well. It’s suggested Tim should become the new Robin and after proving himself, helping Batman and Nightwing with Two-Face, Bruce agrees to let Tim begin his Robin training on a trial basis.

At 13, Tim becomes Robin and goes to Paris to train under a master there, after he has been trained by Alfred, Bruce and Dick. While there, he stumbles into trouble involving King Snake. With the help of Lady Shiva and an undercover DEA agent, Clyde Rawlins, he manage to eventually stop King Snake. During this time he also receives training from both Rawlins and Lady Shiva. Lady Shiva also gives him his trademark collapsible bo staff.

[TIME SKIP THAT WILL GET MORE DETAILS LATER]

Tim’s sixteenth year of life is a real shit fest. During this time, he looses Steph, Kon and his dad. To handle his grief, he even tries to clone Kon.

Around the time he’s 17, Bruce ‘dies’ as well and Dick becomes Batman, handing the mantel of Robin to Damian. Tim feels pushed away and lost, which only gets worse once he becomes certain Bruce is alive, but no one believes him. Instead they think he has become unstable due to grief. Tim then becomes Red Robin and are fully focused on finding out what really happened to Bruce and where he is now, wanting to prove that he is right and that his adoptive father is still alive. It’s during this time that Tim gets stabbed, nearly dies and has his spleen removed.

🔗 VERSES & AUs 🔗

[kara-zor-els]

do you have any recommendations for dick and jason (together or separate, both is fine) comics for someone who’s just starting to read them? i have some knowledge of the characters and batfam and i’ve read several batman comics, but i never really got into the robins-after-they-were-robins comis so i’d like to start with dick and jason…thank you so much :)

I really don't think I'm the person to ask for this, as I'm both very new to comics and I haven't read a lot of batfam, but for Jason I'd safely recommend:

Batman: Hush (not essential, he shows up in a few issues towards the end and is then seemingly revealed to be clayface. I say seemingly because it was then retconed to have actually been him at the beginning. Iconic for introducing the white steak though)

Under The Red Hood (sometimes also known as Batman: Under The Hood)

Teen Titans vol.3 #29 (the famous Jason breaking into Titans Tower issue)

Red Hood: Lost Days

Nightwing: Brothers in blood (bad but it's where you get tentacle monster jason. Casually Comics on YouTube did a good review of those issues, which I would recommend)

He was also in countdown to final crisis, which I have not read yet but will probably get to once I decide to read final crisis.

I'm not too familiar with later appearances as the universe shifts into the New 52. This is where the Red Hood and the Outlaws (Roy and Starfire) era comes from, where Jason gets softened up a lot. I have not read it because I'm honestly not too interested in Lobdell's writing.

Then there is the rebirth run on RHATO (with Bizzaro and Artemis) which I heard is more readable? But still tragically written by Lobdell. However the last two issues are a self contained story by a different writer, which I'd recommend

In conclusion: read UTRH, Teen Titans #29 and Red Hood: Lost Days for pre Flashpoint Red Hood Jason and maybe check out RHATO rebirth for post Flashpoint Jason? @dailyjasontodd has a cohesive reading list for him.

Now as for Dick... his 90s nightwing run is generally considered a good starting point (I have read a few issues here and there), unless you want to start from the beginning of his nightwing career with the 80s new teen titans run. He also pops up in other batman-related comics (I'd personally recommend birds of prey (1999) but he only pops up sporadically. Issue #8 sets the base for his relationship with oracle!babs)) and eventually has a run as batman (with Damian as his robin) after Bruce "dies" in Final Crisis in Batman & Robin 2009 (I'm skipping a few events here). He then had a few nighwing runs during and after the n52 (and a run as Grayson). You can pick up the most recent nightwing run (Tom Taylor) as it's pretty beginners friendly (I mean I'm a beginner and I could follow it just fine) but it's honestly just kinda boring? The art looks great though, so at least there is that.