#helena and jason are more than just the black sheeps of the batfamily actually. i understand why arguments fall back on things like that

[aalghul]

Saying that what fans (and post-flashpoint) make Jason is what Helena already is always gets one of two reactions: I hate Jason and this is true, I love Jason and this is completely wrong. Everyone's losing with that btw.

Helena and Jason are fundamentally different enough that it can't be exactly true. Helena and Jason's backstories don't have much in common either. Helena's involved betrayal, schemes and fights for power. Jason's was a product of Park Row being continually failed by Gotham. Jason also has a history with the Bats specifically, as the second Robin and a son of the family, that Helena doesn't. There is an appeal in that that's not transferrable; Jason's been a Bat and has had his own various roles since his he was created pre-crisis, not just since his resurrection or since he got a softer role post-flashpoint. He doesn't get to just not be a bat character.

In going "fanon Jason is exactly like Helena" you're also ignoring her time on the JLA and BOP, because remember that fanon thinks Jason sits around staring at his wall angrily until his family tell him to stop being a brainless killer OR runs around half-assing missions with his brothers friends because he has none of his own. It's honestly a disservice to her to pretend that brand of fanon Jason could ever be her.

However, Helena is the one who fought to be trusted by the Bats and compromised on killing because of them (whether that be due to the aforementioned struggle to fit in with them, or, at low points, because they know her identity). Jason did not due this pre-flashpoint, and even those abandoned attempts in Countdown didn't begin with the main timeline's version of Bruce. Pre-flashpoint Jason was not asking for anyone's trust or for a seat at the table. That's not even to say that any interpretation of Jason that has him reconciling with the Bats if a rip-off of Helena, it's just that Jason put himself on the outskirts of the family because he has personal issues with them. It's not just them making that decision. The role that Jason now occupies is very much the one that Helena had.

I'm not going to sit here talking about all the similarities and differences, or how they got tangled along the way. I just want to say that people who act like Jason was dealt a good hand by being given Helena's characterization by fanon and post-flashpoint are never going to be able to prove their point because you're focusing on the wrong thing (something that isn't even true). People who refuse to accept that the Jason they're talking about is a whole different character are going to miss out on any of the many interpretations of Jason that aren't just knock-off Helena's. And they're all pissing each other off in the process.

[dolldefaced]

some other things i've seen: (mentions of csa later down)

people who hc jason as catholic are stealing from helena: absolutely busted take esp considering new jersey is one of the most catholic states in the usa. this isnt a niche religion, guys. more gotham characters actually probably should be, demographics wise.

i guess there might be an argument where fanon tends to make jason a teacher too, but usually he's a professor or hs teacher, not elementary.

the above rb works best with explaining her further i think.

steph and jason's backstories: this one is actually dc's fault, stop blaming the fans. theyve made it so jason as robin acted as reckless as her (no shade to steph i enojoy it on her and think it makes sense as she was a solo vigilante before robin). theyve given jason an abusive dad whereas before he was just absent. they gave both of them mom's who do drugs.

ig too there are fanons that make him go into the medical field like her

i struggle to think of something fanon does that makes them similar beyond this? canon seems to have like. been the whole catalyst. honestly most people seem to actually make steph poorer than she ever was in canon to compare her w/ jason.

both helena and steph also are so called black sheeps of the batfamily for a while which when people say that jason is also a black sheep pisses people off (a: i do agree when people make steph's relationship to the bats way too nice but if they dont like. chill. b: jason, as someone who was adopted by bruce, is gonna have a different dynamic. like an actual black sheep relation to his family opposed to like. friends/coworkers. steph and helena are not actually bruce's family. they just work with him and are friends with tim/cass. while steph gets the mentor part helena is like a grown ass woman?)

mia: it's the child prostitute thing, however considering jason is given a lot of actual in-text hints to csa and whinick (who worked on both mia and jason books) was the one to have jason compare them both, this is delibrate. like get reading comprhension (esp since mia killed a dude too! they are in conversation for a bit there! she is the second speedy! they are foils!!) (also generally how i see it written in fanon, it's usually quite different, even if similar)

i've seen cass too but tbh this baffles me unless it's about the au where lady shiva WAS jason's mom. like usually cass is heavily involved in those though, so???

honestly all of them act totally different, even in the most fanony shit i've seen, so even if backstory details were ~stolen~, i fail to see how theyre comparable. oh no! people have similar backstories! like okay the main thing is the characterization............

Hey guys what is it that jason steals from certain female characters? Like I'm genuinely asking because I don't know anything about them but can anyone like explain to me what traits and stuff he steals?