#both as a victim and a perpetrator

[technicallyfriendly]

I'm a sucker for enemies-to-lovers ships that really come from a place of mutual hatred. They WANT each other dead. It is personal. Be it because of revenge or even just an instant feeling of dislike. It does not matter. Their hatred is obsessive and even self-destructive.

But over time, the hatred starts to wane, replaced by mutual respect even, but the obsession remains. They have sunken their claws too deep into each other's flesh, there is no separating them anymore, and their bites start to turn into rough kisses. The bruises they leave on each other are no longer borne of the desire to hurt. Instead, they are created of the desire to love and they love in the only way they know how to, violently and all consuming.

Nothing will stand in their way now.

[cuntylestat]

people in iwtv fandom constantly arguing about who's the victim and who's the bad guy and who should we feel bad for and who is doing a bad thing. [ldpdl voice] you're BORING

[thecoolerliauditore]

Sorry, not-so-amicable-exes anon here again just cause I saw your big toxic fh breakdown post again cause a friend wanted to read it and we were tlking about it- unimportant, sorry, we just had a thought. Because I've seen some anti-toxic shippers act like this interpretation is out of spite or some intentional thing shippers of other jimmy ships made up (specifically ranchers usually), but the timeline and accusation is all wrong. Like I don't remember ever seeing anyone even talk about this interpretation until post-liml? And it was very hesitantly and apologetically. There was a fic or two before this but most people even the people who enjoyed it expressed discomfort or concern at its existence and that's how most people react to them even to this day.

But I remember when I saw that first post I was like, "Oh thank god, someone else also thought that!" It felt like before that there was scenes in their POV that only happened when I watched 3l because no one talked about them, or wrote them very differently to what happened. And I saw some other people saying the same thing. I think the post even got deleted a few days later, too. It seemed to me like a lot of people had quietly independantly come up with the interpretation as far back as 3l itself, but stayed quiet until recently to avoid upsetting anyone or we all thought we were the only ones who saw it that way. I know I tend to hesitate to write characters negatively because it feels a bit wrong to do that when the ccs are friends, even if I think it would be interesting. I wonder how many people feel that way also?

But I guess what I mean to say is it seems to me that a lot of people independantly have been thinking it since 3l or ll and the only reason it started popping up in dl is because it was the next big Jimmy ship from the big shipping season, and people werent really willing to even talk about it for a whole other season because they were scared of being seen as negative.

But!! I just really think it's neat, I really like this narrative for Scott and Jimmy. It's rare to be able to get stories where people have problems and break up and move on to new relationships and grow from them. It makes sense because they're the first season couple and they've grown further and further apart as seasons go on.

Even people I see who don't like fh don't seem to WANT to talk about it, they only bring it up when asked, and try to be respectful. Maybe I've not seen something happening somewhere else? I just wish I didn't have to spend most of my energy when writing quadruple checking that I'm not making Scott a bad guy and emphasising Jimmy's faults just so people reading know for certain I'm writing it this way because I'm legitimately interested in exploring this interpretation of them, and I'm not one of "those" writers. But I'm starting to wonder how many of "those" writers there actually are. (At the risk of comparing petty fandom drama to a serious topic, but it feels a lot like I'm back on 2016 tumblr assuring people I'm not one of "those" enbies or "those" aces, trying not to get pushed out.)

I'm guessing anyone who doesn't care for toxic fh probably already has you blocked, but if there is anyone like that who does see this: Hi! I also love flower husbands a lot! They just aren't my fluffy comfort ship, I like headcanoning them as divorced and imperfect because I think it makes them more interesting to write. I love being able to write characters who don't find the love of their life immediately but each relationship still shapes them into a new person. Sometimes I like to imagine their relationship as more mild and silly, and sometimes more dramatic and intense, I'm not a one-headcanon person! But their divorce is what really inspired me about them so I like writing about it. I don't want to stop anyone from enjoying them how they enjoy them and have no interest in making people who would be upset by my content to read it, so I try to tag it correctly! I'd like to be able to write my stories without walking on eggshells wondering if someone thinks I only wrote something I worked really hard on and cared a lot about just to spite them or because I'm secretly homophobic while writing about men kissing, just because my interpretation is different. It makes me scared to put Scott in my fics at all and contributed to my writers block for fics with them in it. I think Scott gets treated unfairly by certain people too, but that's not what I'm trying to do, I wouldn't write about him if I did!

(Also sorry if my paragraphs are strange, I'm not used to writing on mobile or pouring my thoughts out.)

Hi hello welcome back!! Please don't apologize I love long asks, especially long asks about scott smahor. The fact that you pulled up that toxic fh post and read it with a friend is so funny to me. Looking back, I wish I'd planned it out better and wrote it more eloquently, but I'm glad it brings people some sense of joy/entertainment/understanding. I hope you and your friend enjoyed it, even in an ironic sense.

It's endlessly entertaining (and fascinating) to me personally how every toxic fh believer seems to undergo the same-ish pipeline of watching the fh pov and being horrified --> looking at fanon fh and disengaging out of fear --> finding other toxic fh posters in the wild and suddenly realising you're not insane after all. I know I personally went into scott's pov expecting wholesomeness and ended up wide-eyed at what I saw before proceeding to slink FH into the back of my mind for awhile.

People tend to believe others operate like they do and I think that's where a lot of the discourse originates. Most of the louder voices I've seen that are very against the toxic interpretation are from people who primarily engage in bending the characters to fit specific concepts i.e. the "toxic jimmy" brainstorm that happened awhile back on here where interpretation is less a study and more confirmation bias-ing your way into making an idea work. Which I must reiterate is completely awesome because we're making fanfics here not nukes. But this leads people to assume that everyone who writes about toxic fh is going in with the mindset of "how do i interpret these moments so that scott is an abuser" and not "wow that thing i just watched sure kind of felt like domestic abuse"

Which like. YEAH, if there was a theoretical group of people who went out of their way to interpret everything scott did ever as evil and irredeemable, I too would assume that they had it out for the guy. But that's not what's happening, usually, afaik (at least on here, twitter's situation is a bit different due to the culture and would be its own beast for me to dissect and I honestly don't spend enough time on there to really feel confident making any statement).

For the record, I think a lot of people are on the same boat regarding FH being toxic and just simply don't care enough to voice/explore it, don't want to deal with the fandom nonsense that comes with it or would simply rather shift focus onto other pairs with similar themes. i.e. there is something going on with the toxic fh believer/ethubs shipper overlap I just know there is if anyone would like to do science with me it'd be awesome.

I know that I definitely focused my sights more on Scott and Pearl's relationship following my "wow that was sure something" watchthrough of scott's series, which is ironic considering I now base alot of my thoughts about their dynamic on scott's previous relationship with jimmy.

I think there's like. Something about the DL Pearl fans and the ranchers fans specifically who tended to communicate in code re: Scott's toxicity because for a long time all of us were afraid of saying it outright. So you get a lot of posts where Scott is like. A vaguely unpleasant force in the narrative while not really being a main focus himself, which I think may have contributed to the "ranchers fans only view scott as the villainous ex to push their ship harder" argument that I've seen a lot.

Once I realised from that one Shepscapades comic that there were others who saw the same plot I did, I would go out fishing for signs of agreement/acknowledgement. Hybbat if you're reading this, take this as my apology for sending you anon asks back in the day essentially trying to bait you into posting more FH slander, there was something deeply wrong with me (there still is, I'm just more upfront about it now I think).

There's also just this very like.. us vs them mentality very apparent in the way people talk about The Discourse that kinda sucks. Weirdly enough it's kind of shifted from toxic fh vs healthy fh to fh vs ranchers (or any other jimmy ship for that matter) nowadays. I can't talk on 2016 tumblr but regarding your last point (which I know isn't directed towards me but I think it's worth saying) -- would it matter if you Were one of THOSE fh writers? (or one of THOSE aces or THOSE enbies for that matter). You're not but like. Would it?

(side note rhetorical question do not answer i dont want to know but wtf did the aces/enbies even do lmao)

Not to get too away from the discourse cus I do my fair share of glazing on this blog already, but yes yes yes big agree on fh's storyline being amazing!! I love that we essentially watch them both have to live on after their mutually life-changing marriage.

Scott especially I love because in a lot of stories that feature an abuser they're painted as entirely evil and oftentimes disappear from the story once the relationship is over, but Scott doesn't and will never go anywhere. He's forced to grapple with his previous actions and the destructive way he thinks about himself and relationships has and continues to damage both himself and the people he loves. Just like how irl even when we wish abusers would just "go away" they will still continue being living people as they've always been, not a concept that will simply perish once you overcome the trauma. I love abusive characters who are fully written as human and think they're important. Is all.

[witchofthesouls]

Tarn's ideal partner would be a dommy mommy.

That mech is the literal poster boy for daddy issues. He craves validation from Shockwave Megatron a strong adult figure.

Maybe that's why I did the sex worker with his praise kink as they're breaking his aft with toys as well as a lactation kink and the leash with Camien Nurse?

He wants that guidance and to be taken of by a firm, yet caring paternal/maternal figure. He wants to be told he's a Good Boy as he rests his head on nice tiddies.

[eskildit]

you might think im not a cytherea enjoyer but i am a cytherea enjoyer, its just that she needs to evil. none of that, oh shes actually the real victim :( her actions were reasonable given the circumstances and the way she felt :( who are you, john gaius? shes a fucked up evil woman. <3. 

[dreaming-of-hope]

people who can no longer stan armand after the season finale reveal because he is "irredeemable" and "terrible" like... yeah, that was always the point!

[nostalgiacored]

between this and the super hell comment I'm hm. hmmmmmmm. I don't like where that's going!

[moonlessbeast]

Hi I’m gonna Lilapost real quick. Literally no matter what I do I can’t see Will’s outerwear as anything but a bathrobe. Like he’s got some jeans and something like a polo and then a bathrobe.

He’s in his cozy robe fit for his day of manipulation and treachery

[c1trvswurld]

Would I be killed and hanged if I made a college campus serial killer au for mouthwashing

[thorough-witness-enjoyer]

anon because im on the wrong blog rn but i wanted to say i really enjoyed your witness analysis post. i havent really seen many comparisons about the colonisation aspect of what the witness does (though to be fair, im not really in touch with fandom). so it was nice to these themes touched on especially so eloquently !

Greetings anon!!!

Thank you so much for the kind message!! I deeply appreciate your words as the Witness is a character that is extremely close to me, quite literally being one of my favorite characters in media ever and someone who revolves in my head like a rotisserie chicken 24/7!!!

I truly believe that if you don’t see the content you desire in the world, you should go out and make it, so when I didn’t see mountains of the most bitter vitriol towards the Witness, I knew I had a job to do!

I’ve been left to pick up the pieces of the Witness’ long legacy of reducing my people and culture to what is “palatable and profitable”, my family has a prophecy (a destiny if you will) that I will form my own Witness in this life to enact an ideology and force that idea on me, I was once a precursor who raged against a silent god by abandoning my self, I’ve met many disciples of the Witness in my life and many more victims of it. This character has been so firmly tied to my life that I just had to share my perspective with the world in an attempt to make people understand just how important the lessons we can learn from it are!! I could talk about the Witness for eons!!!

There has been a lot of Witness works ( fanfiction, memes, art work, etc.) produced and a lot of it has been absolutely phenomenal work!! They are all clearly created by people who have a deep affection for the character that clearly shows in their fantastic pieces and I truly love that, but a lot of what I saw left me feeling restless because none of it (from what I’ve seen) truly tapped into the absolute nightmarish nature of what this entity has brought down on civilizations. I really wanted to bring in another voice on this character because I couldn’t be moved so deeply by its defeat and sit still on it!!

Again, if no one is making the content you would like to see, make it! That’s actually the biggest reason why I started making posts for this blog, I wanted to help others see that there is much more to talk about when it comes to the Witness than its philosophical views on reality and it’s big eyes (as well as not keeping my trillions of thoughts in my head).

To me, characters as awful as it should always have their victims struggles voiced first and foremost and the Witness is much bigger than itself for it has forced its necrotizing fingers into the lives of everyone in the Destiny universe.

The story and focus will never be on the Witness for me, it will always be on its victims and their recovery.

I think about how I struggle to find traditional names for my heritage because everyone has a name from the beliefs of our imperialists instead of the victims they forced to be remembered as necessary casualties on a path to “civilization and salvation” and I am putting the Witness through a million glass tables.

I think about how all I know of my relatives who were born not that long ago was that they were only allowed to be “field workers and strong believers “ and here comes a massive anvil over its head.

Speaking on this matter, I am still working on a small thought dump on how Rhulk is a prime example of someone who sheds their cultural and personal ties to go from victim to perpetrator and it’s been hard!!

In all honesty, it has really taken an emotional and mental toll on me for how deep it cuts and how much of it reminds me of all that could of have been in the lives of so many if they weren’t groomed into believing that the only way to get justice for their lives (lives affected by the conditions the ideological groomers use to be opportunistic) is to take on a position where they are a subjugator, not the subjugated.

It’s very painful to write about and Rhulk as a character makes the very core of my being ache as every time I read Shattered Suns, I have to sit back and clench my fists at the invasive, predatory behavior the Witness displays towards Lubraens. Those same words it coerces Rhulk with are the same ones that resulted in hollow people in my life who were prideful in turning their backs on their cultural ways and community if it meant gaining the security and sense of righteousness the oppressors offered. The Witness preyed on Rhulk and turned him into something truly awful, something I see so often that I cannot stand by and not say anything on it.

I wish to see Rhulk content that does not focus on him just being a devoted disciple of the Witness or some super strong villain who’s cool, I really want to see more content touching on what happened to make him fall so far into the Witness’ clutches and views him as the victim he is! I want to make content that shows how REPUGNANT their relationship is and how Rhulk is an example of the need to provide preventative community and understanding to those vulnerable to ideological grooming, especially in our modern era where harmful beliefs are ever present and looking to find people to sustain them!

This is getting very long, but in essence, thank you! Thank you so much anon for your words!!

I truly believe in the importance of POC voices, especially black voices, in fandom spaces as we have been left out of a lot of discussions that have heavy implicit (and explicit) ties to race and culture when it comes to sci-fi and fantasy settings! We get strength from community and understanding, it is how we can better make fandom spaces comfortable for all!! By giving my views on the Witness and its ills, I wish to help the Destiny fandom understand some of the ties it has to real life issues and hope that it helps people be more conscious of the teachings in media they invest in!

It was so nice to see people contribute to my Witness post with their own connections or point out connections other people have made like with evangelicalism and Polish fascism. I’m very glad many people can unite on the fact that the Witness is abominable and that we can face irl Witnesses by defeating ignorance hand in hand!! My understanding and beliefs are always evolving with new information and I’m always happy to grow alongside others!

Just remember guys, make the content you want to see in life and if you are a POC, voicing your discomfort or offering your perspective on matters discussed in sci-fi and fantasy settings is essential to getting proper representation in media that is done with nuance and respect as well as help both audiences and writers craft better narratives!!!

And trust me, the Witness (especially the behaviors it displays towards Rhulk and it’s other victims) makes me deeply, deeply,

deeply

deeply

Uncomfortable.

I will never forgive the Witness for all it has done and I never want to see it pleased with its work EVER. The only redeeming I want to hear about the Witness is how it can redeem this coupon for my fist in its face, free of charge, guaranteed by me, filled with the force of all my relatives who did not live long enough to see that they could have always mattered in this world.

[roseofcards90]

The fact that people were so willing to completely dismiss what happened in After Pain and Harrow after they saw It's Not My Fault and Deep Cover paint Mu and Kotoko in a worse light really shows that some people don't have literary comprehension 😭

[captain-crowfish]

GUESS WHO FINALLY THEIR SCRIPT FOR THEIR SUPER SPECIAL BOXTROLLS IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS VIDEO THAT THEY HOPE TO RELEASE ON THE BOXTROLL'S 1oTH ANNIVERSARY!!!!!!!!!!!!

read the tags for more info xoxo

[bonefall]

So, since BB!Ivypool will use her newfound deputy status to force a confrontation with Dovewing- how would she react if Dovewing snaps and told her to her face that she never, EVER wanted to speak with her again after everything? Like, would it click for her that even if she deeply regrets the way she treated her sister, no matter how sorry she is its up to Dovewing if she's ever forgiven? Or does she blame Heartstar thinking she turned her sister against her?

Let's pop open the hood of BB!Ivypool and her fucked up little life, and every person she's been leading up to the end of BB!TBC.

All of this starts with her father, Lionblaze, raising her with this axiom; That you are given strength to serve your Clan.

While he used Dovepaw and her powers in service of ThunderClan (often fighting with her mentor, Birchfall), Lionblaze encouraged his daughter to involve herself in Dark Forest training. Ivypaw felt like this was how she "earned" affection from her Ba, with hard work.

Just as Lionblaze believed that his physical abuse at the paw of Ashfur made him stronger, Ivypool also came to believe that growing up thrown to the wolves made her stronger too.

So when Dovewing first started to... not even REJECT the idea, just display any resentment towards it at all, it's like a personal slight.

No one ever fucking listens to Dovewing. No one cares what she wants. Just what she can do for them.

And Ivypool was super part of that. Her mentor is Brightheart, who often overexerts herself as an expression of PTSD. She saw Hawkfrost "die" turning against Tigerstar for the greater good. She sees Bumblestripe "working so hard" to "help Dovewing adjust" while she's losing her hearing.

In her eyes, Dovewing was being selfish. Look at all these people who give EVERYTHING to their Clans-- how dare you try and make it about yourself?

Tigerheart, in and out of their life constantly, gets blamed because it's a lot easier to pin it all on the Evil Codebreaking Foreigner than admit that maybe Dovewing has a point. Ah HA! THERE is the villain responsible for making my sister act weird! I knew it all along!

(Plus Tigerheart and Ivypool got pitted against each other a LOT in DF training because Ivy was Hawkfrost's apprentice and Tigerheart was Tigerstar's, for some incredibly fucked up projection reasons you'd expect of Tunnelbunstar. Ivypool will nonsensically blame Tigerheart like she's a Dinkleberg.)

(Also tbf tigerheart would 100% let her believe it, 1. Because it's funny, and 2. Because it takes the heat off Dovewing)

And Ivypool was VICIOUS about this. AVoS is still getting shuffled but if anything vindictive she did towards Dove in that arc gets removed, I will replace it with something just as bad. She would actively sabotauge ShadowClan if it meant keeping Tigerheart away from Dovewing.

She can't handle the thought of losing Dovewing. At some point, it became about control. It's her insecurity towards herself, towards her family, towards all of her losses, and even towards service of her very Clan.

And then Dovewing booked it. Couldn't handle this shit and panicked and BAILED.

And THEN it's about getting Dovewing BACK. She's even dragged Fernsong into this and tried to leverage his friendship with Dovewing to this end. She'll even support Bumblestripe when he tries to argue for an invalidation of Queen’s Rights on technicality.

Ivypool: "Those kits are Bumblestripe's! He has a claim! They even have HIS MANE"

Heartstar: "Hmm. No, it is very clearly MY mane."

Ivypool: "You can't-- wait what?"

Heartstar: "Lightkit even has my beautiful smile <3 so fuck off, maybe?"

For a long time that's where Ivypool was. She was the awful, vindictive sister-in-law constantly trying to weasel in to make Dovewing feel bad. When she had kittens of her own, she was still in this mindset.

It didn't end well. In BB!TBC, Bristlefrost needed her. Ivypool stepped in to prevent her from being the impostor's pawn, but refused to do anything when she was caught and imprisoned for being in a HalfClan relationship. She needed to be punished as a codebreaker.

Brought to the next Gathering, the impostor reiterated the need to enforce the code, and desperate times calling for desperate measures. He called for SkyClan to punish their own warrior. They refused to make this a public spectacle.

So he sliced open her throat, right on the branch beside him.

Ivypool didn't imagine she would be KILLED. Suddenly her whole world shattered. The moon stayed clear and bright. Her daughter was dead before she hit the ground and she had HERSELF to blame.

Dovewing and Ivypool served in the rebellion together, and eventually Ivy went into the Dark Forest as a Light in the Mist. She watched Bristlefrost die, AGAIN, knocking Ashfur out of the sky and burning them both up in orbit, and how brave Shadowsight had been in pinning him in place.

Ivypool NEEDS Dovewing to know now that she's different. She's learned a lot. She understands so, so much more now...

But DOES she? She still hates Heartstar's guts. She still feels abandoned. How different ARE you now, Ivypool, with your renewed interest in finding some petty reason to skirt around Dovewing's direct wishes? When you're still here getting into blowout arguments with Heartstar?

So to answer the question, if Dovewing told her directly, "I WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR DESPERATION. IM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR FEELINGS. PISS OFF"

Ivypool would not be able to accept that.

It just wouldn't stick, ever. It really is desperation. Dovewing NEEDS to know that Ivypool loves her and misses her, and that she understands, but also that Heartstar is delusional, and this is still kind of Dovewing's fault. And Ivypool will do anything to make her know this.

But I also DO want to say; this is a very unique weakness. It is Dovewing Derangement Syndrome. Ivypool is a competent deputy, and she is a devoted and respected warrior of ThunderClan. It will be no surprise she's being picked for deputy, especially considering (god willing) Squirrelstar is seeking war with ShadowClan.

She is a good friend, mate, and leader. But BB!Ivypool is so, so fucked in the head about Dovewing. This family can fit so much trauma in it

[proudfreakmetarusonikku]

like the tradwife movement is so fucking depressing bc it’s centred around romanticising an inherently abusive dynamic. it’s a bunch of women groomed into thinking that they owe men everything for being women and that they’re crazy for not being 100% deliriously happy to be treated like a possession going around and spreading the rhetoric they were fed uncritically bc they’re terrified to not accept physical sexual and emotional violence as signs of love. like this isn’t to excuse tradwives who continue the cycle of grooming other women into being abuse victims be it their own children or people online or whatever, grooming is bad I hope that should be uncontroversial and raising someone into thinking they deserve abusive relationships and that they’re true love bc of their perceived gender being grooming should be similarly uncontroversial. but the fact that tradwives are inherently abuse victims bc their own rhetoric treats abusive marriages as perfect and how they’re born from and tools of societies ever present victim blaming especially towards women and girls is important. they’re not new, they’re just another part of the machine designed to normalise abuse and exploitation of the oppressed as not just good but beneficial to that oppressed group. and that brainwashing often works- which does not make the brainwashed any less victims, they Are being abused, but it also does not excuse them of their actions, just explains them.

[this-cannot-continue]

ougg. rewatching episode 13 and the establishing shot w/ the hawk got me thinking abt 2B bird imagery again.. only seeing it this way now but i really like how they take advantage of multiple angles on the bird connection by associating her w/ different types of birds. like first there's the white birds that show up in the prologue + the first ed for which i think the clearest association is freedom. in both instances shes watching them fly away in a way that draws attention to how shes metaphorically caged in comparison. but they also go at it from an angle specifically connected to her executioner status by associating her with birds of prey, of course the hawk but also my personal favorite interpretation which is maybe more speculative but hinges on the black feathers on her sleeves resembling a crow which is most commonly interpreted as an omen of death. REALLY obsessed with the idea of this aspect of her design serving as a sort of doom signal for whoever shes assigned.

[harrowscore]

a few days ago i (re)watched the 25th anniversary concert of les misérables and. oh god. i forgot how much this musical did éponine dirty