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iodglobal · 8 months

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dravidious · 4 months

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A good while ago, I watched this video about an MtG interaction between Ashaya and Blood Moon, and aside from my usual gripes with Blood Moon's wording, there was something that really bothered me: The comments. Specifically, people failing to understand the beautiful way that the rules handle continuous effects (specifically, continuous effects generated by static abilities). So let's go on a quick* trip through the magical world of card game rules.

And no, it's not about layers.

Continuous effects are when a card is continuously affect the game state; for example, increasing the power of all elves by 1. However, continuous effects also use information about the current game state to determine what exactly they do; for example, the effect above needs to know what creatures on the field are elves. This can cause problems when multiple continuous effects start messing with each other.

Take this card for example:

"The monster(s) with the highest ATK on the field is unaffected by the effects of Spell Cards." That's a perfectly reasonable effect, very intuitive, easy to apply. For example, if the two monsters on the field are these:

Then Blue-Eyes will be unaffected by spells. So if someone plays Dark Hole:

Then Dark Magician will be destroyed, but Blue-Eyes will not. Simple. Now, another very simple question, what happens if someone equips Dark Magician with this:

It gains 700 ATK, which means it has 3200 ATK. Which means it's the highest ATK on the field. Which means that, because of Pole Position, it's unaffected by spell cards. Which means it's no longer affected by Magic Formula. Which means its ATK is 2500 again and thus Blue-Eyes has the highest ATK. Which means it's affected by Magic Formula and gains 700 ATK. Which means it's the highest ATK...

The Yugioh rules address situations like these by saying "Please don't do anything that would start a loop."

And looking at Ashaya + Blood Moon, you might think the same thing would happen:

For clarity, Blood Moon's effect also causes nonbasic lands to lose all their abilities. They didn't write this on the card because they hate you.

So what you might expect to happen is that Ashaya turns itself into a land. Because it's now a land (and not basic), Blood Moon makes it a Mountain and takes away its abilities. But since Ashaya's ability that made it a land is gone, that means it isn't a land anymore. That means that Blood Moon stops applying to it. That means it gets its abilities back. That means it turns itself into a land. So now it's affected by Blood Moon...

But we've all watched the video, so we know that what actually happens is that Ashaya ends up as a land creature with no abilities (except the Mountain ability of T: Add {R}). But what happens when Ashaya's controller (let's call her Amy) plays another creature after Ashaya has lost its abilities? (and let's say there's a +1/+1 counter keeping Ashaya alive)

Well, obviously, nothing will happen; Ashaya no longer has its ability that turns Amy's creatures into lands, so the bear stays a regular creature. And THIS, THIS is the failure to understand layers that INFURIATES me, because obviously, OBVIOUSLY the bear becomes a Land Creature - Mountain Bear!

Unfortunately, if you don't immediately get an intuitive understanding of the beautiful design of the way MtG handles continuous effects, it's actually super unintuitive and hard to explain. Which is why I've come up with a model to help understand why Ashaya's ability is NOT gone, and in fact still applies to the bear even though Blood Moon already made Ashaya lose its abilities.

The way we players are used to understanding the game is through what I'll call the Final Game State, where all the continuous effects have applied to the cards on the field. 99% of the time, the final game state is what matters. In the final game state, Ashaya has no abilities besides T: Add {R}, so it seems like it can't possibly turn the bear into a land. But this way of viewing the game is flawed: If Ashaya truly doesn't have its ability, then it shouldn't be a land. But if it isn't a land, then Blood Moon doesn't apply... How do we avoid the loop?

Let's go back to the fundamental problem of continuous effects: They affect the game state, but they also use information from the game state. When two continuous effects are each altering the information that the other uses, we get a loop. The solution: Don't make continuous effects get their information from the final game state.

DISCLAIMER: I just read through the comprehensive rules sections 611 and 613 and while 613.1 matches my understanding for individual objects, there's nothing about how the game state as a whole is determined, and little about determining the existence or nonexistence of continuous effects. However, I'm pretty sure I'm right, so I'm probably right. Anyway,

The core idea of the model is this: There are multiple game states in existence at any given moment. The first is the raw game state, which is dependent purely on the cards on the field, unmodified by continuous effects. All other game states, including the final game state, are dependent on the raw game state (though not always directly dependent)

Let's say we have just an Ashaya on the field, nothing else. To find the final game state, we start from the raw game state: Ashaya is a 0/0 legendary creature - avatar, with its 2 printed abilities. From here, we find all the continuous effects that exist that haven't been applied yet. There are 2, generated by Ashaya's abilities: One that turns it into a Forest, and another that sets its power/toughness. We apply the Forest one first because of layers (not important).

Normally, we think of "applying a continuous effect" as modifying the game state. But in this model, we instead create a new game state, equal to the raw game state plus the application of the continuous effect. Let's call this "game state 2". It's important to note that game state 2 is dependent on the raw game state, which still exists. In game state 2, Ashaya is a 0/0 legendary land creature - forest avatar with 3 abilities (the new one being T: Add {G}). Now, just like last time, we look for continuous effects that haven't been applied yet. Ashaya's p/t setting ability creates a p/t setting effect, so we'll apply that.

Just like last time, we create a new game state by taking game state 2 and applying the continuous effect. Now we have game state 3, which is dependent on game state 2, which is dependent on the raw game state. In this state, Ashaya is a 1/1 with the same types and abilities from game state 2. Now there's no more continuous effects left that haven't been applied, so we're done, and game state 3 is the final game state.

Wow! That was a lot of work to find the final game state! So what happens if Amy plays a Runeclaw Bear now? Well, that gives us a different raw game state, and since everything is dependent on the raw game state, we need to throw out all the work we did and start from scratch. This sounds like a huge pain in the butt, but usually not much changes. In this case, the new final game state looks very similar to the old one; we just add a bear and turn it into a forest. But that's not technically the way the rules handle it. In the rules, it goes through the whole process, evaluating every continuous effect and how each one applies to every object.

For example, let's say we have Ashaya and Blood Moon, and Ashaya has a +1/+1 counter on it so it doesn't die. Raw game state: Ashaya has its printed characteristics and is 0/0. Game state 2 - Ashaya type change: Ashaya is a forest land creature. Game state 3 - Blood Moon type change: Ashaya is a mountain land creature with no abilities (except T: Add {R}). Game state 4 - +1/+1 counter: Ashaya is a 1/1.

Great, that went exactly as expected. Ashaya has now lost its abilities... in the final game state. In the raw game state, Ashaya's abilities are still there! Thus, when Amy plays the Runeclaw Bear, it makes perfect sense that the bear is turned into a land by Ashaya's ability:

Raw game state: Ashaya and the bear have their printed characteristics. Game state 2 - Ashaya type change: Ashaya and the bear are forest lands. Game state 3 - Blood Moon type change: Ashaya and the bear are mountain lands and lose their non-mountain abilities. Game state 4 - +1/+1 counter: Ashaya is a 1/1.

Whenever a new creature enters the battlefield under Amy's control, the game will go through this process starting with the raw game state, and Ashaya will turn that creature into a land. Ashaya's ability isn't gone, it's still right there, printed on the card. Each time the game evaluates continuous effects, the effect from Ashaya's ability always applies before the ability is removed by Blood Moon.

Even though there's never a final game state where Ashaya has its ability, the ability still applies, even to new objects.

*it was not a quick trip

#original #about the disclaimer: what i mean by “i'm pretty sure i'm right” is that the alternative is that each object is evaluated separately #like. in order #and then how would you determine what order to evaluate the objects in?#if ashaya gets evaluated first then it turns itself into a forest but then loses its ability #so then when you evaluate the other creatures ashaya's ability won't turn them into lands #but if you evaluate the other creatures first then ashaya WILL turn them into lands because its ability hasn't been removed yet #and that is so much more fucked up #so yeah i'm pretty sure it evaluates the entire game state at once #this whole “separate game states” model is just that: a model #there aren't literally multiple game states in existence it's just a useful way of understanding how continuous effects are applied #and how an ability can exist and affect things even if it isn't present in the final game state #the important part is that you start from the unmodified characteristics of the board #also i had to craft blood moon in order to get those screenshots #i wrote up this entire thing and then thought “wait maybe i should actually make sure i'm right”#and i am! so yeah i'm probably right mostly kinda #the model works!

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