#bg2 spoilers

[y-rhywbeth2]

Bhaal talking to you in the journal updates is fun, but honestly nothing in BG3 has topped the one-sided conversations you get to have with this asshole in your dreams during the original games. It nicely illustrated how Bhaal thinks of his spawn and also gives you a good idea of how the Dark Urge's nightmares usually go. I feel like I'm missing things without having to listen to his ego every other night.

Look at this A+ parenting! (These moments have lived in my head rent free for at least a decade so I'm sharing them.)

"Such pride is undeserved, great predator, when your whole being is borrowed. Credit where it is due, and dues where payment is demanded."

"You will learn."

[stabs you with a knife]

[drowns you in blood]

[sets you on fire]

[disembowels you as the Slayer]

"...you will learn to trust me. Don't be afraid. You are safe here... if you behave."

"[My other child] clings to her old life as though it actually matters. She will learn."

"You will come to realize how little choice you have. You will do what you must, become what you must [...] You will accept the gifts offered to you."

"Fall to your knees! You can do no other!"

"What do I want? Your life, your soul, your body! I am the instinct that will fuel the father! I am the blood!"

"I lurk behind your soul, in the very fibre of your being. I am the only thing left when mind and reason are stripped away. I will show you what you can be, what you can do… if you simply let yourself become what you are. I can show you all of this, because I am within. I am what fills the void. I am you."

"You are to be given a gift. It is a valuable prize, one that you had better appreciate."

"You worry for your companions perhaps? Leave them, abandon them, and become what you must. There is great power in your heritage. Use it, and become closer to who you are… what you could be. Feel what is in the void. Use the tools that you are given. Become part of something greater. I am in you, and I know what is best. Each time you use it, each time you accept it, you move a little closer to the evil within. Perhaps you lose yourself in the end, but you will go to greater reward than you can know. After all, what does an eternity of nothingness matter, when you can [easily] destroy all that would oppose your development..."

This didn't work, so on his next attempt Bhaal did his best to ensure this kid would be tailored to obey and have no personality outside of being an extension of his will. Clearly his mistake was waiting until they were adults to start fucking them up, so - kill your family!

[wolfsong-the-bloody-beast]

There is a cure for vampirism!

I haven't finished playing Baldur's Gate 3 yet, so I don't know how Larian handles Astarion. I'm currently somewhere in the middle of Act 3, I've done his personal quest, so I'm getting there. However, there's something I've been thinking about since the start of the game, the moment I learned that Astarion is a vampire spawn. There is a cure!

Warning: Major spoilers for Baldur's Gate 2!

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet. Maybe I've just missed it. I have to put it out there because it's gnawing at me. There is a solution!

There are a lot of variables to the story of Gorion's Ward (GW), so I'm not going to speak for everyone, but at some point in the story of Baldur's Gate 2, GW's love interest is kidnapped by a powerful vampire, Bodhi, and turned into a vampire spawn. However, GW and their friends defeat Bodhi and in her very lair find an ancient tome with information on how to restore a vampire spawn, bring them fully back to life.

Another great thing is that, at that point, you may have Jaheira with you - I did - so she would know of the solution and could provide this information to Tav's party. Surely, a Harper would even keep a tome of such importance, or GW, raised in Candlekeep, would bring it to one of the greatest libraries there is, especially after it had saved their loved one's life. The tome would be invaluable to them.

What needs to be done should be simple enough: Take the heart of the master vampire who turned the victim and bring it to a temple of Amaunator (There's one in the Umar Hills, at the very least, even if it was falling apart a hundred years ago.) together with the spawn. GW's love interest had to be delivered dead because they were fully under control of their vampire master and I imagine also because of the game's limitations - the spawn just wouldn't follow even when charmed. But I see no reason it wouldn't work with a living spawn.

Pray.

???

Profit!

"In the arms of the Sun god were the infected placed, and the hearts of their dark masters were laid there with them. Blood did burn, and the dead returned, but not as undead or unliving, but alive and freed from taint."

GW's love interest was brought back to life perfectly fine. There was no catch. No side effects.

Now pardon me if I'm being redundant and Baldur's Gate 3 deals with it in some other way. I just had to put this out there, because it'd been driving me insane, having this in my head since starting the game. The whole damn time.

But anyway, here, for all your happy ever after headcanon needs, in case it is needed!

[xanfeursel]

romancing in jaheira in bg2

[sauronpilled]

( hypnotize you ) you will play bg2 for hexxat...

[shaykai]

Drow-disguised Kaine doodles

[salamanders-please]

I finished BG2!!! It was a good time. The game takes you to soooo many cool locations. Like so many. Damn. Hard to pick a favorite. The sahaguin city maybe? The underdark was also super neat. I really enjoyed that arc.

I just wish Throne of Bhaal hadn't been so separate? Idk if that makes sense. But like have that story interwoven better with the main game story. Either way ToB was a great close to the saga. I had a very good aligned character and i reloaded my save to see two different endings. I am not sure which is canon for him tbh. Either one is plausible for him lol

Though i lean towards him staying on the mortal plane with his love. He is rather selfless but i think he would choose to be selfish just this once bc his bhaal taint has been nothing but trouble and he deserves to live a normal life. He wants to live the life Gorion tried to give him.

[e-suds]

I’m absolutely losing my mind over the idea of having Jaheira in the party of a Dark Urge Tav who is desperately trying to be good and trying to hold onto their humanity while two unknown entities chip away at it. (a lot of assumptions ahead, sorry) She’s already been here! She’s already done this! And she’s older and wiser and has seen even more now. And she knows even more keenly the stakes of the crises that are taking hold in Faerun, because (I can only assume) she’s been seeing crises unfold for another hundred years, and tried her best to keep the balance throughout it. She’s already seen this happen with Charname. And she’s already seen this happen with Imoen. And they conquered it! So she knows the strength that someone can have, and that it is possible to overcome a dark power (potentially again, a dark god, even) nudging someone towards evil. But she’s also seen so many of the bhaalspawn fall, and she saw the damage they wrought throughout her adventures. (Even the one she loves.) And she has always placed people on a moral map, and judged the sway that they will have on the world--everything she fights for and believes in demands those categorizations. I believe at least that the wounds of grief over Khalid have healed enough that this time around, she won’t need to worry about her own motivations. She won’t have doubts over the things and the people she needs, or the vengeance she’s clinging to. But what wounds may have happened in the interim? And where will she net out on this complete stranger going through troubles so similar to the troubles that had plagued such an intense period in her life? Will she be able to trust them? Can they look to her for support or will they drive her away? I’m just so hype, I want to see how this goes. (psa: I realize that we don’t know yet how they tie the originals tie into BG3, at all, and how they handled ‘canon’. And we really don’t know what Jaheira would have lived through in the hundred years between them, or really what BG3 is even about, haha. But I for sure know that I’m going to be reading Jaheira’s character through the lens I saw her with in her romance - a good-aligned charname and at least BG1 with the canon party, and that’s all this post reflects. If people have other reads of her character I totally understand and I’d love to learn about how other people feel!)

[anderstrevelyan]

Shar demands you steal ONE child that you have to groom to be your replacement and couple years this bitch baby steals your son, steals the only cunt you may serve under Shar(her clothes) and her job(on a DJ route)?! Girl really was put through the ringer☠️

(I mean, Viconia's not the one worse off here, but) it's worse, actually, this worldstate of mine! I don't know how much the fandom at large is aware of Viconia's broader story if they haven't played the previous games, but:

she refuses to sacrifice a child to Lolth and is driven from the Underdark for it (only escaping alive thanks to her brother, who's turned into a drider as punishment) (this is when she first turns to Shar, when she has nothing of her old life left, as she also faces violent prejudice and abuse on the surface)

she can go through a redemption arc and shift her alignment from neutral evil to true neutral, as she heals and finds trust and falls in love—and depending on your bg2 choices, can have a son. (hi, Valas)

Then:

when Valas is 12, Lolth's servants find her anyway and kill her

when Valas is 15, his father (my Gorion's Ward, so: Bhaalspawn) is attacked and turns into the Slayer before being killed

Valas is taken in by the Bhaalist temple, setting him down his path as the Dark Urge

very soon after this (like, possibly months, to make it work with the relative ages of Valas and Shadowheart) Viconia is resurrected

she hears that her husband is dead, and the word is her son died in the attack, too: pushing her firmly back towards Shar in her grief. So, she listens, and sacrifices a child's future to her goddess

And then years later that child walks into her House of Grief hand-in-hand with the son she thought was dead? And he's a man now, when she never got to see him grow? And she has to come to terms with learning what happened to him, how similar it was to what she did to Shadowheart and also done in the name of faith??

Like obviously Viconia's role in Shadowheart's life is horrific, but I have a lot of empathy for Viconia in the tragedy of it all.

[theultimatepielord]

A long and angry rant about Sarevok's inclusion in bg3.

As a big fan of the first two Baldur's gate games, I am very angry about Sarevok's inclusion in bg3, and it feels like they just abandoned everything about his character to be like "ooh, cool cameo, remember the other games?" (Which were better fight me). Major spoilers for all 3 baldur's gate games.

First question: why is he still alive? The events of BG2 ToB were in 1369 DR, and Sarevok was already in his twenties, per the Forgotten Realms wiki (this is reasonably accurate to bg1/2) , and bg3 takes place in 1492/maybe93 DR, which makes him at least 142 years old. Bhaalspawn age slower than normal mortals, so this could make sense EXCEPT SAREVOK DOESN'T HAVE BHAALSPAWN POWERS, as his Bhaalspawn abilities weren't restored when he was resurrected by Abdel at the start of Throne of Bhaal. So first off, he should be dead by old age, and resurrection magic generally doesn't work after death by old age (since it would in-universe make the acquisition of immortality completely trivial for anyone wealthy). Already a gaping plothole, but sure let's progress through anyways.

So storywise, you find him as the justice in charge of the initiation of the Bhaalist cult headed by Orin. This immediately raises a question: WHY THE FUCK IS SAREVOK RUNNING A CULT FOR SOMEONE ELSE?

You might say, "why wouldn't a Bhaalspawn be working for a cult of Bhaal?", well, here are some good reasons.

Sarevok never worshipped his father. His cult during bg1 was dedicated to making HIM the new Lord of Murder, and his massive ego and intense selfishness kinda precluded him ever working for someone else's aims.

Sarevok ended his time with Abdel as a Chaotic Good character attempting to find redemption for his time as a murderer (this isn't guaranteed, the player can not redeem him, but his entry on the Forgotten Realms wiki implies that he is canonically redeemed, and it's significantly more in character for Abdel (also CG) to help him find redemption)

During the events of ToB he regards his non-Abdel/Imoen siblings with scorn and resentment, and is not interested in supporting any future lords of murder, save perhaps the one nice enough to resurrect him.

Not only that, he shows deference to Bhaal, the father he never cared for, and proof of his failure, after Orin kills her mother/his daughter.

"Ok but it was for his daughter/granddaughter, surely that changes the equation"

First off Sarevok didn't really care for his close family, as he either manipulates Abdel and company into killing his adoptive father Rieltar or just does it himself and frames Abdel. Either way, the murder of his adoptive father is a critical part of his plan. He also kills Winski Perorate, his beloved tutor who told him he was a Bhaalspawn for helping him escape the Grand Dukes + Flaming Fist + Abdel crew instead of helping fight. A minor transgression to kill someone close to you over. He also tosses aside the love of his life, Tamoko, to pursue godhood. His evil side does not care for ANYONE. And his good side sure as hell wouldn't react to Bhaal declaring his daughter/granddaughter his Chosen by supporting them.

Which brings us to the final plothole: who the hell is Helen(Orin's mother/Sarevok's daughter)'s mother?

It really should be a doppelganger, given that Changelings can be the offspring of a doppelganger and a human, giving Orin changeling blood, which makes sense on the surface level given Sarevok's army of doppelgangers in bg1. Except throughout bg1 Sarevok is in a relationship (initially with Tamoko, and then later Cythandria), and changelings live as long as humans, which creates the same issue of bg1 being over 120 years ago. This means that Sarevok went doppelganger-fucking at some point in his ceaseless tortured post-bg2 wanderings and then opted to settle down and raise the offspring despite canonically never falling in love again after Tamoko.

Even if Helen were not a doppelganger, and Orin's father was, we still hit the issue of Sarevok needing to conceive her almost certainly with either Tamoko or Cythandria 120 years before the events of bg3, so either Orin's ancient or Helen was ancient when she birthed her. Neither really makes sense.

NOT ONLY THAT, if Sarevok WAS supportive of his daughter's scheming, why the hell is Orin just Gortash's mad dog? Sarevok's a consummate schemer, a relentless power-seeker with as much similarity to Bane as to Bhaal. Why the hell was he ok with Gortash taking prime position? Why didn't he ever teach his daughter subtlety or politics? Even if Orin kills Gortash, she couldn't hold Baldur's Gate. What the hell?

I don't think Larian asked any of these questions, I think they just wanted callbacks to bg1 so they tossed in the main villain because he's a recognizable helmet and name. And to top it all off they recast him. The most iconic VA performance from bg1 gets recast. Original VA Kevin Michael Richardson is still active and still does video games, with no major controversies near as I can tell. I can forgive not bringing back Heidi Shanon (retired for 20 years) and Jim Cummings (accused of sexual abuse), but come the fuck on with not bringing back KMR.

[optiwashere]

You mentioned in your Shadowheart essay (the one about her characterization with regards to Shar) that there is a lot to be said about Viconia, the role she had in trying to shape Shadowheart into a good Sharran, and Viconia's role in BG2, and I'd be curious to read your thoughts on that?

Sure thing! Although, to be honest, I don't have nearly as much to say on Viconia as I did in that essay because BG3 is just closer in my mind than 1/2, and there's less focused characterization of companions in the previous games.

In BG2, for those that aren't aware, Viconia was a romanceable character, and her entire romance — as there wasn't really a "personal quest" other than that — leaned heavily on the fact that she was a drow as well as helping her see that it's okay to trust people that you care about. Back then, drow were all Lolth-sworn by default, and Viconia had to flee the Underdark after she had a crisis of conscience and refused to sacrifice a human child to the Spider Queen. Lolth branded her a traitor, and her entire life became searching for some semblance of protection and safety from the goddess. This led her to the path of Shar by the time you meet her in BG1 and later in BG2.

The events of BG1+2+Throne of Bhaal (ToB) that BG3 considers canon don't include the Viconia romance (she dies in that case by a drow assassin in an epilogue) which means that Viconia is still Neutral Evil, and that she is likely still running from Lolth in the events of BG3.

After the confrontation at the House of Grief, and referencing Viconia's default non-romance epilogue, she has another crisis of faith as she essentially states that she doesn't understand now what the point was in murdering her previous cult of Sharrans in Waterdeep. In the ToB epilogue, she actually insulted Shar by killing that cult for betraying her. In my opinion, everything that she's doing with the artifact in Shar's big ole divine game is just to get back in the good graces of the Lady of Loss so that she can feel safe again. That is a gigantic red flag for someone trapped in the cycle of abuse.

Viconia has been the subject of Lolth's ire for over a century as of BG3, and (unless I've missed dialogue with her, which is completely possible) that means she's probably had to really appease Shar to make that work. In BG2+ToB, if and only if you pursue her romance, the Bhaalspawn is the one that helps her with Lolth's servants. Without that, she has to turn to someone else for that protection: Shar. And to appease Shar, a serial divine abuser, she has to perpetuate the cycle of abuse I talked about in that post. With Shadowheart in the mix, it shows us (in my opinion, there's not a lot of textual support in BG3) that Viconia is exactly what Shadowheart is going to become if you don't get her away from Shar.

So, to me, the key takeaway is that Viconia is an abettor to the abuse Shadowheart deals with, and over a long enough period of time she's become extraordinarily desensitized to anything that surface life could have done to help her, as a person, deal with her paranoia over Lolth and, frankly, anyone else. She never learns to trust others and instead falls entirely into the "Let's Make Her Worse" hole of becoming someone fueled entirely by hatred — hatred for Lolth and for probably all surface-dwellers. If you send Shadowheart down the dark route and she becomes a Dark Justiciar, Viconia represents the future that Shadowheart is going to turn into. Nobody is trustworthy unless you can rule over them with an iron fist, and even then you have to be ready to kill them at a moment's notice.

Viconia is that puppet I talked about in the essay, doing as Shar wishes without thinking because she has no real control over her life beyond making her goddess happy. She exchanged one horrific manipulator (Lolth) for another one, and barely seems to notice. It's a pretty tragic fate for her, and sparing her makes it even worse because she might try and go back to Shar for forgiveness without any sort of history of trusting others that she would have gained in BG2+ToB. As a mirror for Shadowheart, she's what it looks like when everything goes wrong.

[jurassicteeth]

My durge that survives, Cyris, is the child of my bg2 protagonist Cynthia, who travelled around with Jaheira. This is a redraw of the scene that happens with the dark urge and Jaheira :)!

[⚠️Baldur’s Gate 2 and 3 Spoilers!⚠️]

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I researched and nothing really said that there was only one way that bhaalspawn were sired so… since the bg2 protag gets possessed to be an avatar of bhaal im thinking that through Cynthia- Bhaal somehow put a piece of his own flesh into her, so when (Cyris’ biological-ish dad) Baron was carrying Cyris he was actually with child who is a bhaalspawn? (Cynthia and Baron are both trans). Idk anything can happen and I’m just rambling, but considering the connections and my research not really being specific to there only being one way it can happen, and that bhaal would hide his children and basically infiltrate families, homes, towns, etc. It just! Yeah.

BUT when i got this Durge scene where Jaheira approaches you as you’re sleeping, I wanted to make a short thing about her having some sort of flashback to the similar but different experience that Cynthia had.

[y-rhywbeth2]

Jaheria: "So you wish to be a god, Gale? You know the wizard Irenicus attempted the same thing, by leeching divine blood from a Bhaalspawn." Gale: "Aha, transfusion! An interesting strategy. Hard to get hold of a god's blood, of course, but if one could..." [Curious/excited by the idea] Jaheira: "He managed it. After murdering my husband, and torturing my friends and I for half a year." Gale: "Did I say interesting? I meant terrible, of course. A terrible strategy." [Knows he put his foot in it, backpedalling fast]

The fact that he can say this as part of a group that contains not only two of Irenicus' victims (who have taken down multiple epic level threats), but also potentially two demigods - one's a serial killer and the other one stomped a man's skull into mush and snapped another's spine over her knee for exactly this kind of shit - is fascinating. Genuinely loving that hubris buddy!

[diredeliverance]

Lowish effort sketchies... images of modern Bhaalspawn fashion have been haunting my mind this week and I needed to exorcise them. I've never drawn Sarevok before so take pity on me there.

[thunderboltfire]

I have a lot of thoughts concerning the finale of BG2 - in my current playthrough some things played perfectly into the narration, while others made some exchanges look a little weird in the context of the gameplay.

I have to admit, the final confrontation seems a little dragged out. The most tense moment of introspection is before Charname steps into the crown of the Tree of Life and I absolutely love how it builds up the tension. The majority of the narration concerning Charname's emotional state and observations during the first part is awesome (the pause after Irenicus dies for the first time? *cheff's kiss*) but the pretty long trials and the second confrontation sort-of undermine its importance as The Big Final Battle.

I'm also not 100% sold on the idea that after the trials Charname still goes head to head with Irenicus when it comes to the control of the essence. The trials themselves seem to be framed as something Charname conjures to help themselves reach their soul - similarly to how the vision when Irenicus ripped their soul out seemed like a fever dream and was actually the result of them retreating inside and trying to find a foothold to defend themselves.

Of course, this time it's a warped version of the Pocket Plane, an actual domain Charname doesn't yet know they can access. Charname's influence over the place is underlined many times, so IMO it rings a little bit hollow that Irenicus has to be beaten down in a brutal battle of dominance, with the trials and the choices taken to get the Tears having only a marginal influence over the ordeal. From a good Charname's perspective, I like that Irenicus turns into a Slayer, when the Slayer is often framed as the emanation of Charname's darkest side. However, he still retains a lot of control over it, and over the battlefield. I feel it would be more satisfying if the trials had tipped the scales somehow, instead of just be a necessary step for the confrontation to happen. To me feels more as if Irenicus used a copied skillset that Charname still has and the argument is over who gets to live, and less like them having a tug-of-war, excercising authority over something they desperately want to have.

[sauronpilled]

i can't wait for the inevitable bg1/bg2 reinassance. it's bound to happen anytime now, because those two games are packed with content, and new NPCs to be obsessed over.

[shaykai]

you make one bad choice in Hell/Bhaal's Realm and you're stuck with an evil alignment after. Just saying. Also if you finish that, then there's what comes After Irenicus. Heh.

ANSHSJJSHS THAT’S GOOD TO KNOW

I’m still a hero h a (accidentally saved over the save I had to maybe take up Sarevok’s offer to beat his face in, so I’m a good guy)

Side note- I’m a few hours into the Throne of Bhaal DLC and it’s willlllld