#bg2 spoilers

[y-rhywbeth2]

In my ever morbid concern about how deranged the local Bhaalists are, I wonder if this little titbit from BG2 that Larian apparently spotted and ran away with ever happened pre-game for the BG3 lot:

-

While going through your half-brother's Bhaalist temple you find a decidedly enraged warrior in a cage next to his throne:

Charname: 'So you came to kill Yaga-Shura?' Ehlastra: 'You simple fool! I came here to join Yaga-Shura, to offer my sword to his service, to follow the mighty giant as his army laid waste to the southlands! I wanted to become part of his unstoppable war machine, to revel in the slaughter, to have my blade drip with the blood of all those Yaga-Shura crushed beneath his mighty boot!' Charname: 'You are lucky they didn't kill you.' Ehlastra: 'The fire giants in this temple are shortsighted fools. They recognised my warrior skills, but saw me only as a potential mate for Yaga-Shura, a chance for him to further spread Bhaal's seed.'

(We've also got Draconis, son of Abazigal, babbling about who is and who is not worthy to have the blood of Bhaal in their veins, but the circumstances of his birth weren't expanded on. It's probably Abazigal's dragon harem. I really hope his mother isn't Fll'Yissetat, but I wouldn't be surprised. Rhetorical question, but what is it with you guys and keeping enslaved women in your basement??))

The misogyny aside (I don't remember if giants usually tend towards it, I'll have to reread Giantcraft or something), anything that's good at murdering will be a candidate for the Bhaalist tendency to breed things for better violence like they're working at a Pokémon day-care, although apparently subject to debate about what the best things to throw in with your ditto are.

You come to the temple to pledge your service to glorious murder in Bhaal's name - the priests apparently respond 'we need you to fuck our leaders.'

Durge or Orin get home in the evening and apparently the staff hand them an unused pregnancy test and inform them that, joyous news! They have chained up some powerful creature or warrior in their bedroom for them to 'spread Bhaal's seed' with. 'We'll have to find you a breeding mate. Or ten,' as Sceleritas says. (... What do you mean you don't want to breed with them?)

These two are kind of a mood, really:

Amelyssan: 'For devotees of death, you of his line are so basely fascinated with propagating new life. It ever seemed to me an impurity in the doctrine.'

That said: Your god and fellow priests started it and groomed them! You don't get to blame the Bhaalspawn for this.

The Dark Urge, addressing Sarevok: 'Pah. All this birth is a distraction. The world over will be dead soon enough.'

Durge: 'If I destroy the world fast enough then I can't be forced into this shit, right?' (And then Sarevok scolds them, because their refusal is a sin. Gotta love this family...)

[salamanders-please]

I finished BG2!!! It was a good time. The game takes you to soooo many cool locations. Like so many. Damn. Hard to pick a favorite. The sahaguin city maybe? The underdark was also super neat. I really enjoyed that arc.

I just wish Throne of Bhaal hadn't been so separate? Idk if that makes sense. But like have that story interwoven better with the main game story. Either way ToB was a great close to the saga. I had a very good aligned character and i reloaded my save to see two different endings. I am not sure which is canon for him tbh. Either one is plausible for him lol

Though i lean towards him staying on the mortal plane with his love. He is rather selfless but i think he would choose to be selfish just this once bc his bhaal taint has been nothing but trouble and he deserves to live a normal life. He wants to live the life Gorion tried to give him.

[shaykai]

Hexxat/Baeloth anon sez: oh good, I thought I said something to anger you. Anyway, you know how to recruit him next time you play, so that's all good.

Oh not at all! I’m sorry you thought that!! I’ve just been super busy & keep forgetting to respond to things like asks

But yesssss one day I’ll have an evil play through with a protagonist who probably finds Baeloth’s arena shenanigans mildly amusing

[thunderboltfire]

I have a lot of thoughts concerning the finale of BG2 - in my current playthrough some things played perfectly into the narration, while others made some exchanges look a little weird in the context of the gameplay.

I have to admit, the final confrontation seems a little dragged out. The most tense moment of introspection is before Charname steps into the crown of the Tree of Life and I absolutely love how it builds up the tension. The majority of the narration concerning Charname's emotional state and observations during the first part is awesome (the pause after Irenicus dies for the first time? *cheff's kiss*) but the pretty long trials and the second confrontation sort-of undermine its importance as The Big Final Battle.

I'm also not 100% sold on the idea that after the trials Charname still goes head to head with Irenicus when it comes to the control of the essence. The trials themselves seem to be framed as something Charname conjures to help themselves reach their soul - similarly to how the vision when Irenicus ripped their soul out seemed like a fever dream and was actually the result of them retreating inside and trying to find a foothold to defend themselves.

Of course, this time it's a warped version of the Pocket Plane, an actual domain Charname doesn't yet know they can access. Charname's influence over the place is underlined many times, so IMO it rings a little bit hollow that Irenicus has to be beaten down in a brutal battle of dominance, with the trials and the choices taken to get the Tears having only a marginal influence over the ordeal. From a good Charname's perspective, I like that Irenicus turns into a Slayer, when the Slayer is often framed as the emanation of Charname's darkest side. However, he still retains a lot of control over it, and over the battlefield. I feel it would be more satisfying if the trials had tipped the scales somehow, instead of just be a necessary step for the confrontation to happen. To me feels more as if Irenicus used a copied skillset that Charname still has and the argument is over who gets to live, and less like them having a tug-of-war, excercising authority over something they desperately want to have.

[marco-the-vampire]

I just finished playing Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn, so! here are some of my favorite quotes/Convos:

(They range from silly and fun to poetic)

(They are arange as I got them in game, so if you feel like they are out of place they weren't for me.)

"The present will pass by if you live in the past. Neither should you wait too long for the future to find you." - Khalid (Said by Jaheira)

"If you didn't want to be cooked, then why did you apply for the job? I think you'll make a tasty snack! Boys! Get'em!" - Troll Cook

"Now walk away and see to your little rescue effort. Take your time. Enjoy life. You have much to face." - Farkraag

"Now you are speaking the language of Minsc! Next we must get you a hamster! Or perhaps an ice weasel, whatever your taste." - Minsc

" I keep casting spells because that is who I am. If I stopped I wouldn't know myself anymore. I'd be a fish without fins. a bird without---uhh..., [...] I'm sorry, Aerie! Gods! My foot's so far in my mouth I'm chewing on my ankle! It tastes terrible! Don't cry! I am so sorry. I didn't mean to-" - Neera

"Relax, [Charname], I will not be gone long. Please, I will explain when I return. I... I do not wish to be apart from you too long. I will return when I can." - Jaheira

"As a child of Bhaal, have you... violent thoughts?" - Galvery

"Can you sign my shirt?" - Neeber

"If your parents don't buy you a [...] stick they don't love you!" - Random voice on background in Trademeet.

" You are not 'The Harper in my midst,' you are Jaheira by my side." - Dialogue option

"With natures love and Mine, Jaheira." - Jaheira (Said in the note given to you by ''Terminsel'')

"Why is your friend pointing a hamster at me?" - Pirate Lord

"The madness fades, and the essence within retreats, but if this continues, you will lose not only yourself, but also everything you hold dear." - Narrator

"No! No collar! I will not be collared by the smelly fishmen! My warrior spirit will not bear such a thing!" - Minsc

"Yippee!" - Beholder

"[Charname], what are we doing in the slums? Have you gotten us lost again? Hey, I heard Volo was compiling a dictionary, I sent him a sketch of your face for his entry on 'Hopeless'" - Imoen (Mod)

And that's it! I love this game! It's all I think, dream and fantasize about lol

I just started ToB! we'll see where the story takes me <3

Also I really recommend going into it kinda blind, I had no previous knowledge of DnD or BG in any capacity and honestly that discovery of the aspects of the game made it so much more fun.

(I started to read the first BG game since it's famously bad, It's on Internet Archive!)

~Bye!

[sauronpilled]

yana first play is going very well ( not )

[anderstrevelyan]

3, 4, and 14 for the oc creation asks!

thank you!! (answering the OC creation asks here)

I answered 3 and 14 here (plus some extra for 14 here).

4. In developing their backstory, what elements of the world they live in played the most influential parts?

Oh the broader setting was everything in developing Valas! He's technically a canon character if you squint—my Gorion's Ward romanced Viconia in bg2, and in the version of their epilogue slide I ended with, they have a son (...and she dies, as orchestrated by Lolth. Clearly not the version of canon that flows directly into bg3).

Parts of his personality are inspired by those few sentences that established a son's existence (how Viconia taught him "the ways of the drow" when he was young feeds into his ruthless practicality, how "she marveled at the understanding in his eyes" his intelligence).

(There's also a bit about how he and his father were said by some to have waged a crusade against the drow to avenge her—that fed into Valas ostensibly being a war cleric of Eilistraee in his first-draft playthrough, though that ended up being a poor fit for his personality. Now his reverting-to-thinking-he-worships-the-god-of-his-youth moment when he wakes up with amnesia leads him to Kelemvor, who he turned to in processing his grief over his mother's death as a teenager not long before he became fascinated with death for much more ominous reasons.)

Otherwise, I drew a lot on Bhaalspawn lore (natrually, for a dark urge!), especially how it's presented in the first two games, and his mother's backstory, too: there's a pivotal moment on his first day in Bhaal's temple that's meant to be a mirror of Viconia refusing to make a sacrifice to Lolth in her own backstory.

[vhenad4hl]

DYNAHEIR AND KHALID ARE BOTH FUCKING DEAD????

[spawnofbhaal]

I got to Spellhold last night in my BG2 re-play, playing with the Yoshimo friendship mod for the first time and . . . whyyy do I do things that just hurt my character more. Imagining her fighting back tears the whole time Irenicus is gloating made it so much worse.

I do wish the mod integrated the Tamoko backstory stuff because it's such good drama (I know it's in Unfinished Business, I just haven't used that because I think it used to break some mods). Like, "I will avenge my sister and do all these terrible things to do so" but then, in the end, he turns out (at least in my Charname's case) to be completely wrong about the situation. And by the time he realizes he's wrong and he's probably working for the very people who actually killed Tamoko, it's too late.

(As a side note, I love how romance!Xan is such a pessimist about battle but any time someone threatens Charname he's like "you're dead.")

[bloedewir]

most treacherous treachery in bg3? easy.

Sarevok Anchev.

>> bg1/bg2 spoilers <<

yes, we were enemies in bg1 but he still was my brother. and then I gave him a part of my soul so he could join my squad. we traveled together. it's was a ✨marvelous✨ family trip. we talked, he changed his mind a bit and everything was really cool and sweet. (as much as it possibly can be if there's three Bhaal spawns in squad).

and here I am meeting that ungrateful ass in bg3 sitting on a throne of a treachery wearing a crown made of lies.

we're supposed to be friends against daddy, dumbass

swear to gods i switched from this:

to this:

in a second.

he didn't even have time to say "oh, fu..".

[y-rhywbeth2]

So what Jergal does, I'm pretty sure, is what happens with Sarevok in ToB. He's dead and, while there's a very brief window of time before the body dissolves and the soul goes to the Throne of Blood where you can resurrect them, the rule is that Bhaalspawn do not come back once they're gone. Eternal damnation suffering Father's wrath, no escape. An exception is made when Bhaal himself wills them to return by restoring their soul/divine essence to them - or another being wielding Bhaal's divine essence does so. Which means that a Bhaalspawn can surrender a portion of their own divine soul (made of Bhaal's essence) unto a sibling, enough to restore their physical form, although stripping them of most divine power (but still leaving them partially divine).

Which has side effects, as seen if Imoen is the donor:

Imoen: 'So... Sarevok. You've had an itty-bitty piece of my soul in there for quite a while now. What's it been like?' Sarevok: *sigh* 'Well, other than a slight obsession with my weight and the resurgence of a few pimples, it's been simply grand. Now leave me be, girl.' Imoen: 'No, I'm serious. Does the fact that you've got a piece of me inside you make any difference at all? Tell me... you owe me that much.' Sarevok: 'What do you wish to know, girl? What are you curious about? Perhaps you would be interested to know that I can feel the knives of Irenicus, slicing into my skin, torturing me. I can feel his hands and his breath, I *know* what he did to you, girl...' Imoen: 'All—all right, stop... I wasn't really serious...' Sarevok: 'How about the agony you felt as your soul was ripped from you? The despair at being left only with the cold voices of your tainted heart, discovering what was inside you all along? How about the hurt you keep deep down within, wondering if you weren't good enough for Gorion? Wondering why you're a Bhaalspawn? How about the loneliness... the unrequited longing you—' Imoen: 'Stop! Enough... I won't bother you, Sarevok, just—'

Bhaal's divine essence is basically Jergal's, so he's a donor match for this godly organ donation, I suppose. I imagine any god would do though. I'd love to know what impulses and memories you can get from the incredibly ancient original god of Tyranny, Strife, Death, and the Dead.

Of course, as I said a while back, there are consequences to the impossible resurrection, which is unlike the regular fare, rendering them something of an aberration (Came Back Wrong). Not alive, not undead - outside of life and death altogether.

Nalia: 'Keep your eyes off me, Sarevok. I don't know what you are, but I don't want you near me.' Sarevok: 'Ahh... So the sorceress can sense the difference in me, can she? Do I alarm you, girl?' Nalia: 'I know that you're not truly alive, and not undead. You're flesh, but not truly alive no matter what [Charname] did to you. So keep away.'

Jaheira: 'You *exist*; you do not *live*. You will miss the Great Mother's embrace in time. You are nothing.'

Cernd: 'I... I apologize, Sarevok. I know that there are reasons for your presence amongst us, but... you seem so unnatural to me that I cannot help but be repelled. ' Sarevok: 'You have encountered many things far more unnatural than me. How about the mortal spawn of an evil god... does that not strike you as unnatural in any way?' Cernd: 'At... at least it is still birth and life, Sarevok. It is part of the natural cycle. Even a Bhaalspawn dies in a natural manner. You are a dead thing that has risen again.' Sarevok: 'The same would be true for any undead creature.' Cernd: 'But you are not undead. You are as the tree stump, sprouted again into a full oak. A marvel, perhaps... but also living denial of the natural cycle. I just find it... disturbing, is all.'

And it does nothing to get rid of the homicidal impulses:

Sarevok: 'In the cold nether realm, while I waited to be reborn, I sorely missed the crimson spray and the hot tang of death on my tongue.'

Sarevok: 'Even after my resurrection, violent rage pollutes my tainted blood. As [Charname] can surely attest, it is a constant struggle to keep our bloodlust in check.'

You've still got Bhaal's divine essence as a fundamental piece of yourself, he just doesn't live in the back of your head the same way (probably?). In Durge's case you've now got the divine essence of two gods competing for your instincts (Jergal probably overrides Bhaal).

[theultimatepielord]

A long and angry rant about Sarevok's inclusion in bg3.

As a big fan of the first two Baldur's gate games, I am very angry about Sarevok's inclusion in bg3, and it feels like they just abandoned everything about his character to be like "ooh, cool cameo, remember the other games?" (Which were better fight me). Major spoilers for all 3 baldur's gate games.

First question: why is he still alive? The events of BG2 ToB were in 1369 DR, and Sarevok was already in his twenties, per the Forgotten Realms wiki (this is reasonably accurate to bg1/2) , and bg3 takes place in 1492/maybe93 DR, which makes him at least 142 years old. Bhaalspawn age slower than normal mortals, so this could make sense EXCEPT SAREVOK DOESN'T HAVE BHAALSPAWN POWERS, as his Bhaalspawn abilities weren't restored when he was resurrected by Abdel at the start of Throne of Bhaal. So first off, he should be dead by old age, and resurrection magic generally doesn't work after death by old age (since it would in-universe make the acquisition of immortality completely trivial for anyone wealthy). Already a gaping plothole, but sure let's progress through anyways.

So storywise, you find him as the justice in charge of the initiation of the Bhaalist cult headed by Orin. This immediately raises a question: WHY THE FUCK IS SAREVOK RUNNING A CULT FOR SOMEONE ELSE?

You might say, "why wouldn't a Bhaalspawn be working for a cult of Bhaal?", well, here are some good reasons.

Sarevok never worshipped his father. His cult during bg1 was dedicated to making HIM the new Lord of Murder, and his massive ego and intense selfishness kinda precluded him ever working for someone else's aims.

Sarevok ended his time with Abdel as a Chaotic Good character attempting to find redemption for his time as a murderer (this isn't guaranteed, the player can not redeem him, but his entry on the Forgotten Realms wiki implies that he is canonically redeemed, and it's significantly more in character for Abdel (also CG) to help him find redemption)

During the events of ToB he regards his non-Abdel/Imoen siblings with scorn and resentment, and is not interested in supporting any future lords of murder, save perhaps the one nice enough to resurrect him.

Not only that, he shows deference to Bhaal, the father he never cared for, and proof of his failure, after Orin kills her mother/his daughter.

"Ok but it was for his daughter/granddaughter, surely that changes the equation"

First off Sarevok didn't really care for his close family, as he either manipulates Abdel and company into killing his adoptive father Rieltar or just does it himself and frames Abdel. Either way, the murder of his adoptive father is a critical part of his plan. He also kills Winski Perorate, his beloved tutor who told him he was a Bhaalspawn for helping him escape the Grand Dukes + Flaming Fist + Abdel crew instead of helping fight. A minor transgression to kill someone close to you over. He also tosses aside the love of his life, Tamoko, to pursue godhood. His evil side does not care for ANYONE. And his good side sure as hell wouldn't react to Bhaal declaring his daughter/granddaughter his Chosen by supporting them.

Which brings us to the final plothole: who the hell is Helen(Orin's mother/Sarevok's daughter)'s mother?

It really should be a doppelganger, given that Changelings can be the offspring of a doppelganger and a human, giving Orin changeling blood, which makes sense on the surface level given Sarevok's army of doppelgangers in bg1. Except throughout bg1 Sarevok is in a relationship (initially with Tamoko, and then later Cythandria), and changelings live as long as humans, which creates the same issue of bg1 being over 120 years ago. This means that Sarevok went doppelganger-fucking at some point in his ceaseless tortured post-bg2 wanderings and then opted to settle down and raise the offspring despite canonically never falling in love again after Tamoko.

Even if Helen were not a doppelganger, and Orin's father was, we still hit the issue of Sarevok needing to conceive her almost certainly with either Tamoko or Cythandria 120 years before the events of bg3, so either Orin's ancient or Helen was ancient when she birthed her. Neither really makes sense.

NOT ONLY THAT, if Sarevok WAS supportive of his daughter's scheming, why the hell is Orin just Gortash's mad dog? Sarevok's a consummate schemer, a relentless power-seeker with as much similarity to Bane as to Bhaal. Why the hell was he ok with Gortash taking prime position? Why didn't he ever teach his daughter subtlety or politics? Even if Orin kills Gortash, she couldn't hold Baldur's Gate. What the hell?

I don't think Larian asked any of these questions, I think they just wanted callbacks to bg1 so they tossed in the main villain because he's a recognizable helmet and name. And to top it all off they recast him. The most iconic VA performance from bg1 gets recast. Original VA Kevin Michael Richardson is still active and still does video games, with no major controversies near as I can tell. I can forgive not bringing back Heidi Shanon (retired for 20 years) and Jim Cummings (accused of sexual abuse), but come the fuck on with not bringing back KMR.

[shaykai]

sarevok doesn't like it if you have hexxat live? or am i misreading? :o

Oh no, I just just rambling about them at the same time- I meant that Sarevok gets upset if you don’t take the offer at the end of the game

And that Hexxat is there and super supportive of you not taking it and I love her dndjjdjdjdj

[optiwashere]

You mentioned in your Shadowheart essay (the one about her characterization with regards to Shar) that there is a lot to be said about Viconia, the role she had in trying to shape Shadowheart into a good Sharran, and Viconia's role in BG2, and I'd be curious to read your thoughts on that?

Sure thing! Although, to be honest, I don't have nearly as much to say on Viconia as I did in that essay because BG3 is just closer in my mind than 1/2, and there's less focused characterization of companions in the previous games.

In BG2, for those that aren't aware, Viconia was a romanceable character, and her entire romance — as there wasn't really a "personal quest" other than that — leaned heavily on the fact that she was a drow as well as helping her see that it's okay to trust people that you care about. Back then, drow were all Lolth-sworn by default, and Viconia had to flee the Underdark after she had a crisis of conscience and refused to sacrifice a human child to the Spider Queen. Lolth branded her a traitor, and her entire life became searching for some semblance of protection and safety from the goddess. This led her to the path of Shar by the time you meet her in BG1 and later in BG2.

The events of BG1+2+Throne of Bhaal (ToB) that BG3 considers canon don't include the Viconia romance (she dies in that case by a drow assassin in an epilogue) which means that Viconia is still Neutral Evil, and that she is likely still running from Lolth in the events of BG3.

After the confrontation at the House of Grief, and referencing Viconia's default non-romance epilogue, she has another crisis of faith as she essentially states that she doesn't understand now what the point was in murdering her previous cult of Sharrans in Waterdeep. In the ToB epilogue, she actually insulted Shar by killing that cult for betraying her. In my opinion, everything that she's doing with the artifact in Shar's big ole divine game is just to get back in the good graces of the Lady of Loss so that she can feel safe again. That is a gigantic red flag for someone trapped in the cycle of abuse.

Viconia has been the subject of Lolth's ire for over a century as of BG3, and (unless I've missed dialogue with her, which is completely possible) that means she's probably had to really appease Shar to make that work. In BG2+ToB, if and only if you pursue her romance, the Bhaalspawn is the one that helps her with Lolth's servants. Without that, she has to turn to someone else for that protection: Shar. And to appease Shar, a serial divine abuser, she has to perpetuate the cycle of abuse I talked about in that post. With Shadowheart in the mix, it shows us (in my opinion, there's not a lot of textual support in BG3) that Viconia is exactly what Shadowheart is going to become if you don't get her away from Shar.

So, to me, the key takeaway is that Viconia is an abettor to the abuse Shadowheart deals with, and over a long enough period of time she's become extraordinarily desensitized to anything that surface life could have done to help her, as a person, deal with her paranoia over Lolth and, frankly, anyone else. She never learns to trust others and instead falls entirely into the "Let's Make Her Worse" hole of becoming someone fueled entirely by hatred — hatred for Lolth and for probably all surface-dwellers. If you send Shadowheart down the dark route and she becomes a Dark Justiciar, Viconia represents the future that Shadowheart is going to turn into. Nobody is trustworthy unless you can rule over them with an iron fist, and even then you have to be ready to kill them at a moment's notice.

Viconia is that puppet I talked about in the essay, doing as Shar wishes without thinking because she has no real control over her life beyond making her goddess happy. She exchanged one horrific manipulator (Lolth) for another one, and barely seems to notice. It's a pretty tragic fate for her, and sparing her makes it even worse because she might try and go back to Shar for forgiveness without any sort of history of trusting others that she would have gained in BG2+ToB. As a mirror for Shadowheart, she's what it looks like when everything goes wrong.

[sauronpilled]

failed attempt negotiating with a mummy 😔

[avinox]

My boyfriend is playing Baldur's Gate (the first one)

Him: Jaheira and Khalid are so cute, I love them

Me: I know, right? They're married

Him: I just don't know why she's a romance option in BG2

Me: 😐