#because he’s ALL about andor and tony gilroy

[chipthekeeper]

I am so unimaginably sick of these people trying to justify their pathetic, useless hate by claiming they “all loved” the characters that i actually do love

Because 1. no the fuck you did not, you fucking people bitch and complain about that as much as any other representation you think is being shoved down your throat and 2. literally what the fuck are you talking about

Abuse??? Because a woman is running this show? Because she’s trying to tell a story that’s different from the ones you’ve already seen? You feel abused? Get the fuck out of here and get my favorite characters’ names out of your mouth

And don’t even get me started on literally a legend “Jyn Eros”

[bberry005]

many people have already pointed this out, but the way andor completely ignores other contributions to the rebellion and the formation of the rebel alliance is so contradictory to everything else we've ever been told about it. framing it to make it seem like luthen laid the groundwork for the whole thing, making cassian and wilmon loyal to luthen above all else, and other things like that completely ignores the contributions of other foundational rebel leaders like hera, bail, ahsoka, commander sato, and even mon mothma in some cases. i know andor as a show isn't really interested in cameos or super tight ties to much in star wars other than rogue one (which is good. i don't love cameos or things that require 2+ shows of prior knowledge to understand), but ignoring other established stories about the rebellion pissed me off. the whole point is that its an alliance forged by many leaders, squadrons, spies, soliders, and everyday people who are brought together to fight the empire. "none of this would be here without luthen" is such a disservice to the story of the rebellion as a whole. sure, maybe luthen pointed them to yavin as a location for a base, but he didn't build the whole thing himself and its ridiculous that the writers of andor try to make it seem like he did

[gffa]

With the confirmation of The Acolyte not getting a second season, I can't say I'm surprised, the numbers for that show were really bad given what its budgets was, like I kept an eye on The Acolyte's numbers and they were really, really down across the board (Ahsoka's numbers aren't super great either but that's getting its second season because it's Filoni's pet show, I suspect), like set aside all the other complicated stuff, whether it was good or bad, how much of the fandom's reaction was pretty heinous and racist, it just was not getting the numbers it needed and it's making me wonder about how all of these shows are not doing well. Mando is doing all right, OWK did all right, Andor's doing okay, but none of these shows are setting anything on fire anymore (ratings-wise, that is), what would it take to create something that takes off again?

I strongly suspect that The Mandalorian only took off because of Favreau, who really does know how to make something really good and fun in the beginning. Filoni gets a lot of credit for that show, but I'd be willing to put ten dollars on the table that Favreau was driving the vast majority of the success of that series. And that makes me wonder about the future of these shows, because I don't think Filoni is strong enough to really carry a show on his own, most of his best work is when he has a strong partner actively working with him or when he was working under Lucas.

And the creators they bring in to create these shows aren't setting anything on fire, either. Yeah, the sequels made a billion dollars for each movie, but I think it's pretty telling that we're not getting comics or books or games about those characters anymore, the way we did for the prequels characters for more than a decade after they came out. Yeah, Tony Gilroy and Deborah Chow had shows that did solidly well, but they're not anything that Star Wars can build future content off of, they're already backstories for other movies themselves. And I don't think Skeleton Crew is going to light anything on fire, either.

Lucasfilm just doesn't seem to know what to do with Star Wars TV and movies. They had some really good early success with their projects, but almost everything ultimately fizzled out after a few years or ended really badly, and it feels like the only thing that's really hitting with audiences are more Clone Wars-era content and The High Republic novels and maybe still The Mandalorian.

Honestly, if I were Lucasfilm, I'd cut out the live action shows and go back to animation and think long and hard about setting up a new movie series. I think, with the right creative team (and not just who they think is a big name to write/direct), they could have a great trilogy with The Old Republic era stuff, because they have got to expand beyond the PT/OT and the Skywalkers, especially since the sequels put a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths about how Luke, Leia, and Han's stories ended.

(I mean, in my ideal world, we'd get an animated series set in between TPM and AOTC or set like 30 years pre-TPM and getting to see the backstories for characters like Mace and Plo and Shaak and Luminara and Yarael, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.)

[therebelcaptain]

“Andor S2 will make you see Rogue One differently” has been such a common refrain in the interviews with Tony Gilroy on the season. As someone who’s loved the film since day one, I don’t think pitching it that way is necessarily a good thing.

Some may feel the changed viewing experience enhances Rogue One, but there is a degree to which certain narrative choices read as Tony Gilroy still viewing the film as something to be fixed. We all know he was brought in for rewrites, but the narrative that he “saved” Rogue One feels overemphasised and fails to acknowledge that the story and characters existed prior to his involvement. His additions may have improved things in certain aspects, but he didn’t create Cassian Andor from nothing. Rogue One is the result of many people’s imagination and efforts—from John Knoll who pitched the story, Gary Whitta who further developed it, Chris Weitz who wrote the initial script, to Gareth Edwards who directed it, to name just a few key figures—to diminish any of that feels wrong to me.

I realise that there’s a lot of people who haven’t seen Rogue One as many times as I have or even read the novelisation, but there are a lot of choices made for Cassian’s character arc that genuinely don’t make sense in the context of the film. While I understand how trauma has been motivating a lot of his actions and is well worth exploring, the fact that *a mere year before Rogue One* he’s actively saying he’s done and only stays with the rebellion because Bix essentially forces him to makes no sense whatsoever. Cassian’s arc in S2 is something that would make sense much earlier in the timeline, maybe over the course of a year, not in the years directly lead up to Rogue One. It honestly feels like a misunderstanding of what his character arc was in Rogue One to begin with.

His unwillingness to follow orders and respect the chain of command a year out from Rogue One completely undermines the significance of him not following through with assassinating Galen Erso and going to Scarif with Jyn. Those are big moments in the film for a reason. It’s hard to feel the weight of those specific choices knowing that only a year prior Cassian was essentially telling Draven to fuck off and let him do whatever he pleases. General fucking Draven of all people.

As much as I want to withhold judgement until I’ve seen the whole of S2, it’s hard to remain optimistic about Cassian’s arc at this point. Had there been another season maybe some of this would’ve felt more earned, but at this point I’m not convinced. I wonder if more people will understand these criticisms and frustrations when they go back and watch the film again, but maybe they won’t.

[jyndor2]

I'm sorry, I do not want to be condescending or disrespectful to people who were more casual fans of rogue one, but it does not escape my notice that the initial response to this show before it aired was mostly "who asked for this???" so for those people, people who did not care a lick about cassian before the show, yeah of course they did not come in with expectations about who he is or the things he has to be and do in order to fit with a film that they don't really care much about.

for many of us who HAVE cared, who WERE ride or die for a cassian show from the moment it was announced, this has been an exercise in frustration and frankly even hurt. so when I say what I am about to say, it isn't because I think we are the only people whose opinions matter. but I am tired of being told since s1 aired that I just don't get what tony gilroy is trying to do, or that I am just a petty shipper, or that I lack media literacy which LMFAO. and I am also aware that my love of this character and the film has absolutely colored my feelings about the show - which I think is probably a better watch for people who did not come into the show knowing or caring about cassian andor as a character.

I understand what gilroy was trying to do. I think he was very successful with s1 even if I didn't like the choices he made for cassian's backstory. but s2 is a different story, and I think the show failed to deliver on what was setup by the first season but more importantly by the film. rogue one is about love - same as andor. the different kinds of love that exist between people, that people have for their communities and for all living beings. the idea of a revolution, to rogue one/andor, is beyond just hating the oppressor - but loving the oppressed, and having a clear understanding of what is to be done to build a brighter future.

this is why the relationship between jyn and cassian in rogue one is the HEART of the film. full stop. whatever the end result (which is of course what matters the most) this was a central part of the story very early on in development of the film, and it also is present in so many of the supplemental works - including in official art, in comics, and of course the novelization.

basically at one point in development, the character who ends up cassian andor is an isb spy who is in a relationship with rebel soldier jyn erso, and only when he sees what happens at jedha (probably jedha, may have been called something else at that point but i don't remember, this is all off the top of my head) does he become a true rebel. at another point, the film ends with jyn and cassian escaping scarif, and then there is a wedding, presumably theirs in the future. of course this ends up getting scrapped because lucasfilm lets the writers kill off everyone at the end, but that doesn't mean that jyn and cassian do not have a romantic element to their relationship.

jyn and cassian are loosely named after the original legends characters who get the death star plans - jan ors and kyle katarn, who are romantically involved.

multiple people involved in the film have said there is probably a kiss that was filmed in the elevator. diego luna was always VERY clear even through andor s1 press that jyn erso was at the very least extremely important to cassian (and back in the day he even said they'd be together and selling fridges lmfao), was his mirror and someone that he felt a serious connection with. diego and felicity clearly played their dynamic as romantic, even if nothing ever happened between their characters because they did not have the time.

the novelization by alexander freed is FULL of clear romantic subtext and outright text especially from cassian's pov. absolutely none of this makes it canon that they WOULD have gotten together had they lived, but it does show an intention that existed for almost as long as the characters did in development - that jyn and cassian's story is a love story, and that it is a love story that ends before it can really begin. that is the tragedy of rogue one - these are people who finally find their home (all of them, not just jyn and cassian, in the cause) and they have to die to save that home. and also it is their home because they WOULD die for it - for the rebellion.

though rebelcaptain has one of the most intimate scenes i have ever seen in star wars (the elevator scene) it is not physically intimate. so to many people that means it's not romantic. which is a shame because it's such a beautiful moment of emotional vulnerability, where these two people finally have a quiet place to just be together, to let all their walls down and belong, but since people are fucking idiots now they think cassian is wishing jyn was ANYONE else lmfao

but that doesn't change the reality of how beloved rebelcaptain is. rebelcaptain immediately inspired so much from the fans - for a mf ship to get as much love as it does to this day is a real testament to how much it is loved by fans. over 5k fanfics on ao3 for a niche non-explicitly canon mf ship is wild. it's the 7th most written about ship on ao3 for all of star wars media. again, for a ship in ONE movie.

of course, a prequel was never going to make jyn and cassian's relationship canon before they even meet. still it is a core part of rogue one and as such I would expect it to haunt the narrative of andor, which it does to some extent, especially in the first season but also in the second. this is not my issue with the show at all because again i understand where they are going with it.

my frustrations with the show are not about cassian having a committed relationship with someone else either. arguably that could have done a lot to move his character to the man who we see in rogue one - and to me it didn't all that well imo because the show doesn't treat cassian andor as if he is an established character with established motivations that we have known for almost TEN years.

my problem is that the show spends more time and energy building up a wonderful ensemble and doing pretty great plot for THEM than it does building cassian into the man we see in rogue one. it wastes too much time in s2 doing a whole lot of nothing, actual nothing, when it needs to be GIVING us what we need. not just what we want. meaning, if you are going to make the case that cassian is talking out of his ass on eadu, you better make that case well - or it won't fucking work.

SHOW us your work, gilroy. don't just tell the audience that cassian is suddenly a great leader, we need to SEE IT. i believe he is but the show does not give any real evidence for it.

it's storytelling 101 - show, don't tell. and considering this is CASSIAN'S backstory, it's a cardinal sin for so much of the development of cassian's core motivations in rogue one to be afterthoughts told to us offhandedly.

an egregious example of this is his relationship with bix.

in a single film, we see more evidence as to why cassian and jyn are so well suited to one another - be it as partners in the rebellion, as friends and/or as potential lovers - than we see of cassian and bix in the entire show. i do not say this to disrespect bixcass shippers, you do you boo, but because honestly I believe this is part of a fundamental problem with andor.

because I actually think the intention of the show is to make that point to us - that bix and cassian are NOT well suited to one another, that they may each be someone that the other WANTS to love, but they are not who they NEED. but I don't think the show gives this the time and attention it deserves.

we are told that bix and cassian are exes in s1, and we see that they broke up because of various incompatibilities - cassian running off and being inconsistent, cassian prioritizing his own needs and wants over bix's, cassian not being open to emotional vulnerability, bix wanting a normal life with a normal guy, etc. no matter how clear it was to me that they had unresolved emotions between them, it was also clear that one of them was always going to hold the other back.

s1 has the room to breathe but also isn't trying to overcome these issues. that is why their friendship, their dynamic, in s1 works on multiple levels - even if I do not ship them - because the show isn't trying to push aside their issues in s1. the first season sets up multiple paths: one that is two first loves who romantically reconnect after a period of personal growth, and one that is two first loves who find that they are better off as friends because their incompatibilities would not be sustainable under the weight of building a revolution. both of which, in order to line up properly with rogue one, would have to end in great tragedy of some sort. not necessarily fridging, but a separation or complete severing of ties because their GOALS ARE NOT THE SAME. not necessarily their goals for the rebellion, although the show does make that clear, but their PERSONAL goals.

it seems as though the show understands this too. the problem comes down to s2 not having the time to explore some very important foundational parts of this supposedly central relationship - or the interest in doing so either.

we do not see them reconnect, which is whack. so not only do we not see how their first teen romance worked (we are just told about cassian sneaking into bix's room lmao) but we also do not see how they fall back in love. because I'm sorry, love is a choice. love is an active thing we must work for. it is not easy, especially in conflict. we see how not easy it is between them once they have already committed to each other, but we do not see WHY they made the choice to rebuild their relationship with one another again, or HOW.

yes, cassian saves bix at the end of s1. okay? bix is deeply traumatized, and we never really see her deal with it. no, the girlboss 2015 era bad bitch coruscant blowout does not count. we also do not see cassian deal with literally any of his traumas either, but we don't see him deal with much.

it seems as though they get back together because they feel like they SHOULD - okay, well then show us WHY. this is supposed to be the heart of the show, right? well show me why that heart beats.

because what I see is cassian and bix fighting, being unwilling to let the other make choices for themselves (bix especially but cassian is guilty of this too) and bix basically reverting to a version of herself we never see in s1, which is a docile, tea-making housewife. cool cool but WHY?? where has it ever been established that bix caleen wants to be a homemaker? that CASSIAN wants that in a partner??

in fact, in the first fucking episode of s1, cassian EXPLICITLY mocks timm for picking a woman who is unruly and rebellious. that moment establishes that cassian understands bix will never be passive, it is not in her nature, and that he doesn't WANT her to be. he thinks timm is a bad match for her because of timm's own preferences for a partner being kind of incompatible with who cassian understands bix to be.

and yet - am I supposed to believe that bix's traumas have changed that core part of her? that a woman who chooses the rebellion is content with not doing ANYTHING? with tea making???

not only is this strike three for tony gilroy passifying a rebellious woman in some way for another character's story (jyn erso, cinta kaz and now bix caleen) it is also totally hard for me to buy because it's not even EXPLORED.

WHY does bix spend her time doing very little (except of course all the stuff she does earlier on offscreen apparently)??? WHY is the rebellion not utilizing her very important skillset (comms and mechanics) when the same revolutions that gilroy has clearly studied so much for this story would have made her very, very useful?

as I said earlier, I think the show makes a decent case for why they ultimately are incompatible. in the end, it comes down to a lack of trust that the other will do the right thing. bix leaves cassian (when she is pregnant; clearly the baby is meant to be cassian's) to go back to the place where she was sexually assaulted for Reasons because she is "choosing the rebellion" but what she is really choosing is to raise a child that cassian would probably want to know about without him even being aware of their existence.

what she is choosing is to not distract cassian from ~his destiny~ which lmao okay sure whatever but GIRLFRIEND you should not have to make that choice. you should trust that he is committed to this ideal you believe so strongly in that you are willing to leave everything behind for good.

because the truth is that yes, bix says that she'll find him someday, and yes, cassian thinks he'd like to find her someday too, but the truth is that this is a betrayal. this is a partner not only forcing the hand of someone they love for an ideal they both supposedly believe in, but also taking away the choice of the partner to have any say in whether or not he has a relationship with a baby that he helped create lmfao. of course a woman has no obligation to involve the genetic father in a baby's life but it's clear that we are supposed to think this is an act of love on bix's part, but... i'm sorry, bix seems to understand (like cassian) that there really is no likely future for their relationship. so if anything, it is selfish. okay. cool, then why is the final scene shot in a way that makes it look sweet and hopeful??? lmfao it looks insane because it IS an insane thing for a person to do.

and am I supposed to believe that cassian and bix would be having unprotected sex during a war???? with their traumas of losing their parents young????? sorry its always been a no for me with rebelcaptain and its a no period.

cassian, who has had his choices taken from him all his life, has this choice taken too - and fuck no I do not get with that, especially not when bix was not forced to do any of this. she CHOSE to leave cassian at his most vulnerable, after witnessing a genocide, something he himself is a survivor of, in order to keep him in the rebellion? girl bye

cassian is overprotective of her to a fault, and it gets them into fights. after her girlboss moment does she even do anything for the rebellion besides "choose" the rebellion for cassian? i literally do not remember a second of her doing anything besides pouring tea and yapping.

so we do not see her recover from her traumas, but we are to assume that she's better now because she tortured her torturer. okay cool, that COULD have been an interesting way to show the audience that revenge does not heal, and certainly not using the pain and suffering of oppressed children to do so will not heal. this could have played into cassian telling jyn to leave krennic at the end of the film, juxtaposing the way he led bix to harming herself further with the way that he asked jyn to spend their last moments together, free from the taint of an easy kill when he knew it was likely krennic wasn't gonna make it.

nope instead we get absolutely nothing. bix suddenly seems okay! great, cool but how did she go from drug addled and struggling with ptsd to beautiful sexy housewife who just so happens to never do anything with any of her skills again from that point?

and that does not serve cassian's story at all. it doesn't even serve her own.

one thing the show does well for her is how it handle's bix's assault. but again, this is how tony gilroy radicalizes bix, as if being tortured by the audio of oppressed murdered children is not enough. there's another avenue for her radicalization: in the first episode, timm mentions a wobani job. meaning bix and timm are working with the prisons (aka labor camps aka concentration camps) for her business. okay well imagine what it would be like to realize that you've been directly profiting off of a system that your friend/lover was enslaved by???

bix as an undocumented woman of course IS of course at risk, and it isn't wrong to show us what that means. the show does make a point of exposing how at risk marginalized women are - from kerri possibly being at the brothel to the way the imperials speak about the dhani women to bix's assault, it's a part of the story and i have no problem with it.

but the purpose was to radicalize her. and what is the purpose in radicalizing bix? to force cassian into serving the rebellion.

even though by then, cassian should be BEYOND committed.

and it's not even something he gets to confront, not really. while it seems to me that they both know their relationship is done for good, while the show seems to recognize that bix was out of pocket for that, why then the image of bix with baby??? why make it seem like she did something good for cassian?

i know, i know. legacy. but i'm sorry that's a legacy that cassian has no ties to but blood. and that's just genetics. not relation, not choice, not family. not necessarily.

it would have made far more sense to show a scene of what cassian was running TO - maybe to jyn, which would have made sense given the shot of saw, but also maybe to bodhi and galen, maybe to anything but what who left him behind and what he was always supposed to LEAVE behind in order for the show to stick the landing.

[elowai]

As a 28 year old Star Wars fan, I want to make an uncomfortable perspective known here and see if I’m alone in this? I love Rogue One. I also enjoy Andor. Andor has me hooked with its layered writing and interesting characters. However, am I the only one feeling some concerns with how Rogue One will be “seen differently” as Tony Gilroy and the other actors have stated? Or is anyone kind of feeling off about Cinta’s death in the last episode? Or how about how Bix’s character is being written?

While the writing is well-crafted, exciting, fun, thrilling, and amazing at political commentary — why are most of the women serving as a “trope”?

Why is Tony Gilroy only writing these new female characters….so similarly?

Cinta Kaz - minimal screen time, has a small intimate scene with Val, dies because “bury your gays” cliche/trope. Some character agency is shown but again we don’t really get to know her. REALLY!?

Vel Sartha - some screen time, no real plot after Aldhani besides trauma moments. No real character agency thereafter.

Bix Caleen - decent amount of screen time, mostly being traumatized. Only agency and plot is avenging her trauma. “attractive traumatized female love interest” trope. Her only purpose is Cassian’s narrative and “humanity” and “home” or whatever.

Kleya Marki - Works under Luthen Rael. Finally had a scene and agency these last 3 episodes

Dedra Meero - Works under male ISB. The ONLY character with more agency but of course she is also manipulative, cold, and “using” a “mean well” dumb guy to really hammer home how “evil” she is because what she is doing isn’t evil or psychotic enough to the viewer….so kinda serves for Syril’s character to possibly have a redemption arc or pity story oh how men can be tricked into fascist things because inadequacy…..blah blah blah not about her character once again because she isn’t given enough with all these other male characters ordering her around. Whatever.

If you take ANY of these women out of the story compared to Nemik, Sloan, Luthen Rael, etc. NOTHING REALLY CHANGES THE STORY. The male characters move the plot. The women do not. They’re condensed to trauma porn.

The only reason Mon Mothma has more agency is because her character was already established setting up the rebellion. Tony Gilroy didn’t create her character so she doesn’t count.

On to Rogue One — my biggest fear is that they will pull “Cassian basically sees himself in Jyn because she enters the story where he was XX years ago in Andor.” — like NO. That wasn’t their dynamic in Rogue One. Jyn’s character/story would then be resold as a reflection of Cassian’s story. The viewer will now see Cassian as the catalyst and main drive for Rogue One when it was supposed to be HER. DAMN. MOVIE. Jyn’s character’s personality was written and all the different plots she had — SHE was the catalyst. The spark. The energy. The glue. It Jyn’s story of survival and taking agency back into her life. Cassian always had that offered to him in comparison. Jyn is NOT a parallel.

The last thing I want to remind everyone is that Star Wars usually caters to a “young male” audience. They’re pretty open about it. However, Jyn Erso is my catalyst too. I want better from male writers. We should expect it too.

Either way, I enjoy Andor but you can REALLY TELL it was written by a white man.

[colleybri]

Luthen and Love - thoughts re eps 1-3 of Andor season 2

Luthen Rael described here by Tony Gilroy in a clip from Rolling Stone magazine (25 April ‘25)

So here’s a crucial difference between Luthen and Cassian. Luthen has sacrificed love; Cassian opens himself up to love.

Despite being torn from his home and his roots Cassian grew up loved by Maarva and Clem, found a sibling-like closeness with Brasso and Bix and eventually (after years of on-again, off-again) romantic love with Bix too. Despite his “fear of being loved”, which stems from his fear of letting people down/leaving them behind as he did with his sister, he has “so much love to give” (Diego Luna, WGA interview)

Luthen believes in causing pain if he deems it necessary to bring about long-term change… this is the accelerationist mindset. To keep his vision pure and utilitarian, he deems it necessary to give up love and this clip shows he probably hates his operatives having romantic involvement that might be distracting or cloud their judgement. I wonder if this is anything to do with why Vel and Cinta appear to have separated in eps 1-3 of S2. Did Luthen deliberately drive them apart?

Cassian’s rekindled (in the gap between the seasons) relationship with Bix is probably something Luthen has tolerated up to now as it hasn’t noticeably interfered with his training and missions or his commitment to the rebellion. But as of Ep 3 Cassian has gone seriously off-piste, ignoring all protocol and the need for secrecy by flying a stolen TIE home to Mina Rau and causing highly visible mayhem in an attempt to save his loved ones.

We’re now going to jump a year, but I would dearly love to see a clash between these two and their very different philosophies on the Rebellion.

For Luthen, it’s about giving up love because love is dangerous for clear thinking in a revolution. For Cassian, it’s about experiencing love, committing to the revolution in the way that he is now able to commit in love. This is why I think Cassian will never become like Luthen… and that’s crucial for the two most important choices he makes in Rogue One: sparing Galen Erso and committing his trust to Jyn, dedicating himself to the cause through her for one final time for the sake of “someone else’s future”.

I think there’s trouble - danger, even - ahead for both of them. Luthen, for not taking more care of the people he should be caring about. Cassian, for his habit of going back for people even when it’s very unwise. And for worrying about those close to him all the time…

… even though that’s just love and there’s nothing you can do about that.

[padmestrilogy]

you all have to stop spreading that “andor was originally supposed to 5 seasons but disney stepped in:((“ bit. andor WAS supposed to be 5 seasons, but tony gilroy cut it down to one season spanning multiple years because he does what he likes. he’s been very open about disney not getting involved in his process. this has been known. you can hate on disney for plenty of other reasons without underestimating mr gilroy

[tobiasdrake]

Here we are at the end of Andor. And my opinion of it is pretty simple. I think the show is really good at talking about the politics of fascism and insurrection.

Where this season excels is in the big moments and the political speeches. It's things like the Ghorman Massacre or Luthen teaching Kleya how to be an operative. It's moments like Mon Mothma's speech to the Senate, where she addresses the Senate and says, "Donald Trump is plunging this country into a fascistic hellscape while FOX News erodes the very concept of an objective reality. You, the person sitting here watching Star Wars: Andor, you have to be responsible for pushing back against this."

The show has a lot to say, and what it has to say is extremely relevant to this moment in history. It is a very good at being a powerful political manifesto that wears its themes on its sleeve.

What it's not so good at is... doing things with the characters it has. Holy shit, do I need to vent because when the show wasn't giving political screeds that I like and agree with, it was such a fucking mess.

Here, at the end of the line, I feel confident saying that they have utterly failed to make Cassian seem like the character from Rogue One. The show is too enchanted by that moment when he decided to defy orders and follow his heart, which was supposed to be a moment of character development.

But they've backwritten it into the show as his defining character trait. The Cassian of Andor is a loose canon who undermines everyone all the time. He hates the Rebel Alliance and is only here because his girlfriend dumped him, and all he does is play cards with his buddies, steal ships, and get in arguments over whether or not Tony Gilroy's OC is the greatest character ever introduced to Star Wars.

He has two separate arguments about that. It's crazy how much the last three episodes are just about what an amazing character Luthen was. Like, the parts with Luthen and Kleya's backstory were actually really good but then the next two episodes just will not stop talking about how Luthen is a Great Man of History, singularly responsible for the very existence of the Rebel Alliance.

Everything good that ever happened in the Star Wars Trilogy, they owe it all to Luthen Thunderdick who descended from on high and made the Empire tremble with his mighty footsteps. It was all him and nobody else. For decades, he was the guy, and there was nothing he couldn't do. Except kill himself effectively.

At the same time that the show can't shut up about how great Luthen is, I was genuinely stunned that Luthen's big confrontation with Dedra consisted of him passively slitting his own gut and hoping for the best. Luthen really struck me as a "Killing myself in a giant explosion to try and take you with me" sort of character, but apparently the big 'out' he had decades to plan for himself was to just quietly die in front of Dedra and hope the Empire will let him.

Cassian and Bail later talk about how Bail being a "Go down swinging" sort of guy makes him like Luthen. And. Like. Yeah, I would have thought Luthen would go down swinging too. So weird that he didn't.

Honestly, it would have been fine if Dedra was killed like that, too. Because the show had nothing else for her to do. She was just sort of fired from the plot right after that. This is another place where the politics are strong but the character work sucks.

Dedra's ultimate comeuppance for everything she's done this season comes in the form of Lonni stealing her access codes offscreen somehow. That's it. That is what undoes her. At some point between episodes 9 and 10, Lonni somehow acquired the ability to access her files. We never saw it happen, only heard him talk about it to Luthen afterward, but that offscreen occurrence so minor that it wasn't worth showing is the moment that seals Dedra's fate.

Dedra going to the prison from season 1 is a strong political point about the way the cruel and unforgiving systems of fascism will devour and destroy their own without hesitation or remorse. She is ultimately crushed under the very machine she worked so hard to help build.

But as a final resolution for arguably the central antagonist of the entire series, it has the same energy as if she were just suddenly dragged away by mountain lions. A bad thing happens to her because the show is over but it doesn't really connect to anything the principal characters are actively doing.

Luthen should have just blown them both up and saved us all a lot of screentime that could have been spent writing a satisfying conclusion to the character journeys we've been following.

I also found it unsatisfying when Syril, horrified by what he's contributed to, exited out into the crowd of Ghormans during the massacre... Only to suddenly spot Cassian and suddenly just turn into a Physical Threat Boss Fight. A violent orc who overpowers Cassian with his incredible accountant might.

But at least they had the Ghorman dad be the one who shot him. Dedra didn't even get that much. She was just dragged away by mountain lions because Lonni did things offscreen between episodes.

It's kind of amazing how this show is supposed to be the prequel for Cassian Andor, a ruthless killer first introduced executing his own informant for the "greater good" of the Alliance, and the most involved he is with the ultimate fate of any of the show's antagonists is getting his ass beaten down by Syril Karn just before someone else shoots him.

Cinta Kaz is the character most poorly served, of course. They brought her back just so they could bury the gays and, by Tony Gilroy's admission, give her girlfriend Vel some emotional baggage. Vel then does not do anything for the rest of the show. That's basically where her character ends.

Bix also got hit pretty hard. Allegedly, she does missions for Luthen and then is dedicated to the Rebel Alliance. She's in it for the cause. But she only gets to go on one mission and that's to get direct revenge on the guy who traumatized her. Apart from that, all she does onscreen is mope around about Cassian and then dump him because a random Force seer told her that he needs to be single for Rogue One.

Literally wrote a fucking psychic into the show to walk up to her and go, "Whoooo the Force tells me that Cassian has a GLORIOUS DESTINY that you can watch on Disney Plus, and you aren't part of it. Get out of here before they fridge you, girl!"

I'm not even going to touch that final scene of her with a ten-foot-pole. I will say that it's kind of gross that she "chooses the Rebel Alliance over Cassian" not by dedicating herself to the cause but by dedicating him to the cause while she retires to go raise his kid. It's kind of gross that they wrote "choosing the Alliance over Cassian" to mean that.

Not like the Rebel Alliance themselves are good for anything. Disney's been assassinating the Rebels for years due to a fondness for renegade protagonists screaming "SCREW YOU, MOM, I'M DOING WHAT'S RIGHT!!!"

Star Wars: Rebels depicts the Alliance fingerwagging at the Ghost crew and telling them, "DO NOT go try to liberate Lothal! Liberating worlds from Imperial control is NOT what the Rebel Alliance is about!" But then the Ghost crew do it anyway because fuck those useless cowards.

Rogue One depicts the Alliance fingerwagging at Jyn Erso and telling her, "DO NOT go try to steal the Death Star plans! Resisting the Empire is NOT what the Rebel Alliance is about!" But then the Rogue One crew do it anyway and drag those useless cowards reluctantly into helping.

With that in mind, Andor is at least consistent when it has Rebel leadership making a big stink about how Luthen sucked and the Death Star intel is wrong and we should just shove our thumbs up our asses and do nothing.

Until Draven realizes that the plot of Rogue One has to start somehow so he does a complete 180 and gives Cassian an important mission, even though they all hate Cassian for being a loose canon renegade who doesn't play by the rules.

Disney just does not like the Rebel Alliance as an organized resistance movement.

Oh, and let's talk about Wilmon. Wilmon gets an amazing moment in episode 6 when Saw Gerrera radicalizes him to the cause. Again showing the political strengths of the show, Saw gets to deliver an amazing speech about how you have to be a little crazy to be a revolutionary, and it gets Wilmon so fired up he exposes himself to gases to join Saw in the madness. He is IN IT now, ready to GET CRAZY AND DO SOMETHING.

The rest of Wilmon's story for the season is that he gets a girlfriend. She seems nice.

That's it. Wilmon's done. Nothing more for Wilmon to do.

Kleya, a character who gets to eat so well in episode 10, then suddenly gets written bewilderingly in 11. She sends out a signal for evacuation because she has vital intel she had to endanger in order to make up for Luthen's random bout of incompetence. Then, when evac arrives, she inexplicably starts an argument with Cassian over whether Luthen is the greatest character ever to grace the face of Star Wars and refuses to be evacuated.

Fortunately, she wastes so much time that the Imperials show up and knock her out with a stun grenade, which also hits Cassian but he shrugs it off with his raw manliness. This allows Cassian and K-2S0 to have a kickass fight scene and then drag Kleya to evac before she can wake up and start weirdly resisting again.

K-2SO's really just here to make witty banter (which he succeeds at) and to have a fight scene where he storms the safehouse to rescue Cassian from Kleya's random bout of stupidity. I honestly don't know which is my favorite bit of choreography.

One Imperial raises a gun at the identifiably hostile droid but doesn't pull the trigger while K advances into grappling range and kills him. The other Imperial, watching this, raises his gun and doesn't pull the trigger until K advances into grappling range and kills him too.

K-2SO, famously killed by blaster fire, slowly advances into grappling range on a guy who shoots him in the chest. The blaster shots glance harmlessly off of K-2SO's invulnerable chassis.

K then uses that guy as a human shield to block enemy blaster bolts, even though it was just established that he's invulnerable to them. So I guess that part was just for shits and giggles.

Either way, at least K did get to be funny. I do feel like this is the same character from Rogue One. So there's that, at least.

But overall... yeah. Andor makes for a really good manifesto that really captures the moment in history in which we are living in, but is not very good at telling a story.

[communistkenobi]

I'm curious how you stomach going thru Tom Cruise's entire filmography when he's such a massive piece of shit. Like I feel like I'd just be thinking about all the women in films he has costarred in and abused beyond reason the entire time.....

I’m going to step very slowly into a minefield so please bear with me:

I don’t find that approach to art particularly helpful or interesting most of the time, and even if you do (which I don’t begrudge you for) I don’t think anyone has a principled stance on the matter, which would prohibit you from watching any film ever made, because the production of film under the current economic and social conditions of the world is itself unjust. Perhaps this is a lazy cop-out - if the moving image is evil then all actions vis a vis said moving image are equally damnable and therefore equally permissible. However, everyone carves out exceptions for what they can stomach (MY favourite celebrity would never do that) or cannot stomach (see: depp, jkr), myself included. And that’s not even getting into the actual issues of the content of the art itself. iirc Tony Gilroy scabbed during the writers strike to finish the Andor S2 script and I still watch it and enjoy it! I am also glad they fired Gina Carrano from the Mandalorian for her transphobia and white supremacy meltdown on twitter, and her character on that show is permanently ruined for me now because of it. I will not be able to enjoy anything involving Noah Schnapp as a direct result of his Zionist views. And so on.

An anecdote I always liked that I heard from a prof is his explanation of what a social position is: once a music band reaches sufficient fame, one of the members will inevitably sexually assault someone. So this might sound overly cavalier, but I don’t care to litigate the moral character of Tom Cruise or figure out exactly what he did or did not do (I’m not familiar with the abuse allegations you mentioned), nor do I care to do that with most celebrities, because that would mean accepting the assumption that doing so will give you an answer as to whether you should continue enjoying their work. I don’t generally find this assumption helpful for how I interact with art, nor does it give me the answer I want - which is always, inevitably, no I should not enjoy this, because accruing that much wealth and fame is unjust regardless of who they are or how hard they worked or their talents as an artist or etc., and this injustice structurally produces abuse (#MeToo is a response to this structure). Like the fact that celebrities exist as a social position is itself a problem lol. 

Now does this mean you can engage in celebrity worship, free of any guilt? Again I don’t know if this is a productive question, or if the answers it gives you will be helpful. I find it generally distasteful, but I likewise engage in celebrity parasociality - I watch Tom Cruise press interviews! I enjoy hearing his little stunt anecdotes and it’s not just because they’re interesting, I find him charming and fun to listen to. And we all had a great time when Pedro Pascal was posting the word socialism on twitter. The examples are infinite.

And maybe this is all just motivated reasoning (I don’t want to consider myself a bad person, etc) to let myself off the hook, but it would be effectively the same critique as like, consuming the MCU despite its deep ties to the US military or what have you. Which again, I have engaged in this argument on this blog, and will almost certainly engage in it again! I will mock anyone who still likes Harry Potter on both moral grounds (JKR is abominable) and aesthetic ones (you have dogshit taste). I am also not principled in this regard. You can call me a hypocrite and I’ll agree with you. But I find a lot of movies ideologically despicable (see: Top Gun) or made by awful people (see: Kubrick) and still really enjoy them. This is not a contradiction for me because I (generally) do not operate under the assumption that my engagement with art first requires me to figure out if the artists are good people or not.

And a lot this is adjacent to the point you’re making, and is a strain of discourse I’m anticipating in this response, so maybe this all sounds off topic or overly defensive, but this leads into the broader discussions surrounding the politics of like, ‘moral consumption’ and using the quality of the moral character of an artistic object or artist as a guide for what you should buy into. your mileage will ultimately vary, including my own. and personally I’m really enjoying Mr Tom Cruise!

[spaceprincessleia]

Rebels with(out) a cause

Here are some points I want to talk about regarding Vel, Cinta and storytelling:

It’s Vel’s story, not Cinta’s (Intention)

Vel in season 1 – and Cinta

What kind of story did we get?

The mess (Outcome)

The impact of queerness and race on the story we got

The story we should have got (Fix)

My conclusion

Feel free to dive into 1269 words of analysis. Good luck if you do.

Disclaimer: This is just an opinion and doesn't consider every aspect ever. Also, I don't read (many) interviews with people involved in the show or listen to/watch analyses. I really just had an itch to write down my thoughts, and they turned into ... many thoughts.

Also, this is an analysis that points out storytelling flaws. I love Vel and Cinta deeply, their story overall makes much more sense than the parts that could/should have been better, and I'll forever be happy that we got these characters and their relationship.

It’s Vel’s story, not Cinta’s

Andor introduces us to characters at important moments in the rebellion. Backstories are often reduced to minimal context (except for Cassian’s, because he’s the main character).

One of these stories is about a “rich girl” who walks away from privilege and wealth to fight the Empire directly – unlike a politician working from within the Senate. That’s an angle we haven’t really seen before, and we explore it through Vel – why did someone with her background join the fight?

To tell that story, Tony Gilroy created Cinta as Vel’s narrative foil, aka a marginal role and not a fully independent character. So, she wasn’t written for more screen time or deeper development; we were never meant to learn how she joined the rebellion, where she came from, or how she and Vel met.* Also, Cinta’s angle isn’t one we haven’t seen before.

* If anything, we do know why Vel and Cinta are (were) in a relationship: to contrast the protagonist, Vel, to highlight her choices, conflicts and growth. That’s not the in-character explanation for their love that we want, of course, but a meta explanation – the relationship exists for the story’s structure, because that’s how Tony decided to tell it.

Vel in season 1 – and Cinta

In season 1, we see two sides of Vel: she’s trying to become a leader and find her place in the rebellion (emphasis on trying), and she’s in love with Cinta. She wants both, but clearly struggles to find balance. Cinta is the opposite: she knows exactly why she fights and puts the rebellion first.

After the Aldhani heist, Vel and Cinta are worlds apart, both literally and figuratively. Vel ends up on Coruscant, no longer looking like a ground soldier, while Cinta returns to her role on the frontlines. Their priorities contrast as well: Vel becomes more caught up in her emotions, while Cinta remains focused on the rebellion.

We learn a little bit more about Vel, too, through Mon, Cinta and Perrin (for example that she’s Mon Mothma’s cousin, that she comes from a life of wealth and privilege, and that she grew up in a conservative, possibly homophobic society).

By the end of season 1, the focus is very much on Vel and Cinta’s relationship, and not on just Vel and her “why.”

What kind of story did we get?

Instead, Vel’s relationship with Cinta became the main point of her character – and the exploration of her “why” disappeared. The story focused almost entirely on their dynamic, and as a result, Cinta evolved into more than “just” a narrative foil. She became a character, and the one with more narrative clarity.

Therefore, many of us expected to see both of them grow/change individually in season 2 as well as a conclusion to their relationship.

And we did get both in season 2: they changed, and they found balance. They could love each other and still work well as a team dedicated to a common cause.

So far, so good, right? *record scratch* Well ... no, actually.

The mess

There are three points here that add to the mess of Vel and Cinta’s arc, in my opinion:

Firstly, all of Vel and Cinta’s character growth happened off-screen during the time skips. There’s no build-up to the conclusion of their arc, it’s resolved in minimal screen time. Vel’s core motivation is still unknown and it can’t be explored through her relationship with Cinta, since Cinta is killed off in episode six. Wasn’t exploring Vel’s core motivation the whole point of her character though?

Secondly, If Cinta’s death was supposed to become Vel’s “why,” the missing part in her arc, then that doesn’t work. Vel isn’t a new recruit, motivation doesn’t come after you’ve already committed, and if Vel only really starts fighting because of Cinta’s death, it reduces everything Vel did before.

And thirdly, things get even more complicated when we address what we haven’t yet: Vel and Cinta are a queer love story, with Cinta portrayed by a queer woman of color. And all of this matters, whether it was intentional or not.

The impact of queerness and race on the story we got

Tony tells a story here that generally works regardless of gender, sexuality or race. There’s nothing wrong with creating a marginal role (like a narrative foil) and even killing them off to advance another character’s arc.

But stories don’t exist in a vacuum. Even if the focus isn’t on identity, they become part of the story, and should be considered within the story (the vacuum) as well as the context of the real world.

Andor touches on queerness beyond just the portrayal of a same-sex relationship: for example with the line “Everyone has their own rebellion,” delivered by a queer character from a conservative, possibly homophobic society.

While the line refers to people from different backgrounds who join the rebellion for different reasons, a queer audience will pick up on a more specific meaning in that context, too. Because to many, being queer is a “rebellion” against the norms of a heteronormative society.

Additionally, the marginal character whose primary role is to support the development of a protagonist is portrayed by a queer woman of color, and the protagonist is white.

Considering both of these aspects, Tony Gilroy tapped into a long, painful tradition in media: queer women of color are often sidelined, underdeveloped or killed off to serve the arcs of others.

The story we should have got

Now, could the pain over Cinta’s death have been avoided? No. It would always have hurt fans who were invested in her and Vel’s relationship. But could the mess around that pain have been avoided? Partially, yes. Better storytelling choices regarding both Vel and Cinta could have made it less frustrating. Still, with so much character development skipped over through time jumps, some level of dissatisfaction may have been inevitable.

For me, the best fix would have been to

stay true to the original narrative purpose of Vel’s character, and

show Vel and Cinta’s development on screen, over time, in season 2.

The reveal of “why” Vel chose to fight the Empire should have been the primary focus of her arc. We’re shown her commitment, but not the core reason behind it. And that’s not a small thing: Vel would feel much more complete as a character with a defined motivation.

That missing “why” could have been explored through her contrast with Cinta. Vel is portrayed as someone who chooses to join the fight. Cinta, meanwhile, had no choice: her life was destroyed by the Empire, her “why” is clear.

Vel and Cinta’s journey to find balance in their relationship is a story I love with all of my heart. It could have grown alongside Vel’s personal arc, not replace it, and it could have honored Cinta’s character with more narrative space.

Conclusion

There’s still much more that could be analyzed and debated – but the bottom line is:

In my opinion, Tony Gilroy lost sight of his original intention with Vel: exploring her perspective and the reasons she chose to join the fight against the Empire.

Additionally, his casting and writing choices needed to be handled with more awareness.

Because of this, Cinta deserved more screentime and narrative space in season 2, even if she was always intended to be a foil and her death planned from the start.

And due to the timing of Cinta’s death in the storyline, it could never have meaningfully served as Vel’s “why” anyway.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

[maidenvault]

I feel like it kind of comes out of nowhere how Andor, after Luthen’s death, suddenly wants to prop him up as the guy who supposedly did more and gave more than anyone else for the rebellion, and a lot of discussion of the show accepts this and kind of whitewashes his moral ambiguity that is what makes him a really fascinating character, the standout one of the series imo. Luthen was never the only person building and running a spy network or the only one funding and supplying the rebellion.

And what has he sacrificed that’s supposedly so much more than anyone else’s sacrifices? Compared to all his agents who were more regularly on the ground risking themselves. Or victims of genocides like the one on Ghorman he was happy to have some responsibility for if it made the galaxy wake up more. Or Vel who lost Cinta, Cassian who’s lost everyone like family to him, and Mon who lived with her every move being watched for so many years and left behind her family without even getting a goodbye. If you give up all human connection, you don’t have much to lose, really. (And yet he didn’t even actually do that considering what we learn about Kleya, and his methods would have ultimately been self-defeating if it weren’t for her, the only person he didn’t alienate over the years.)

But even Cassian, of course, clearly doesn’t think everything he did was justifiable. He defends Luthen despite having complicated feelings about him. The series has constantly made a point of juxtaposing his perspective and his methods with those of other characters and he’s not always proven right. So why does the fandom seemingly take Luthen’s rationale at face value?

His defense of the move he made with the Aldhani robbery is to unapologetically tell Mon that the point is to hurt people and escalate things. To him it’s more about that than the money. As Tony Gilroy’s said himself, he’s an accelerationist. And yeah, Cassian being used for slave labor as an indirect result does begin to radicalize him (but the messages Maarva leaves behind are also surely a big motivator in getting him all in). But because of the legislation passed after Aldhani there are probably millions of people still in those hellish prisons for a very long time with the public having no idea how they’re being treated. Luthen doesn’t know about the Death Star project and the gargantuan labor force needed for it. The Empire was surely going to find a way to use slave labor to build it regardless and he quite possibly just gave them an easy excuse to ramp up arrests and extend sentences.

Then he basically plays into the Empire’s hands by aiding the rebellion on Ghorman because he doesn’t know what the endgame is and that the Empire wants the Ghor to fight back. Isn’t it crazy how we’ve been shown from the beginning Dedra is good at her job because she can think like Luthen, and she’s the one who comes up with the idea to stoke resistance among the Ghor and make them look dangerous? But he never considers that using the enemy’s weapons against them can just end up handing the Empire more weapons because chaos and fear are easy to take advantage of. Using those has always been Sidious’s playbook. I mean it’s no wonder nobody at Yavin likes Luthen when he’s still on his accelerationist bullshit two years before the Battle of Yavin, when the rebellion is starting to gather forces there and is already getting stronger every day without the additional push of another genocide.

Cassian’s instincts are right when he doesn’t get involved with the Ghorman resistance, and I think it’s kind of meaningful that Cinta dies so senselessly following Vel on their mission there. Vel’s a very capable rebel but has sometimes served as a kind of foil showing how much more of a natural leader Cassian is, and she doesn’t make the same call when arguably none of them should be there that night.

Ultimately what we see is that the Empire never needed any help from Luthen to hurt people enough that they inevitably fight back. They’ll do that completely unprovoked and with no reason but needing a resource in the ground under people’s feet. Ghorman was going to be destroyed no matter what, which is Dedra’s terrible excuse for her participation and no consolation to Syril, but nonetheless surely true. The Ghor fighting back with help from Luthen only makes it easier for them to control the narrative. A narrative Mon has to risk her life to tear apart on the Senate floor in a move that’s perhaps more powerful in encouraging resistance than the deaths of millions of people who couldn’t choose to sacrifice themselves.

Luthen is human and he makes mistakes. He isn’t a Jedi, he has normal weaknesses and limitations, so he has to make compromises. But after he’s been doing this so long, he clearly has stopped weighing the cost every time and become a little too comfortable with those compromises, like he’s just got to be in for a penny in for a pound to keep justifying to himself what he’s already done.

And in the end, all his work pays off in such a huge way with his Death Star intel only because he got really lucky - or perhaps because he was meant to be there at the right time. It also pays off because he didn’t do the ruthless thing he usually would at the end of season one, never getting an opening to kill Cassian without talking to him first. He breaks his own rules sometimes, he cares about Kleya, and that also pays off. His humanity and fallibility is exactly what makes him a hero - he had to start so small and with absolutely every disadvantage and he still did what he did. He still got a kind of redemption in the end when he wasn’t even looking for it. He could always see the endgame in his designs and that there’d be hope in that he couldn’t share in himself, but ultimately he is part of a destiny that’s even more important than anything he could have expected his efforts would bring about. The hope was always there and maybe he wouldn’t have done some things the same way if he could see it.

[rotzaprachim]

so the thing is that I’ve already vented a few of my thoughts on wheatfield force baby and how much I hate everything about it, but it really did draw my attention to some of the serious emotional potential around the issues of the children who already exist in the narrative, about parenthood and the emotional and physical responsibilities you have to your children, the “I’ll be worried all the time/that’s just love.” And it drew my eye in particular to the issue of “lost” girls, to the actually somewhat parallel shapes that Kerri and Leida cut in season 1, to something Lila says in the close out of the recently finished my brilliant friend tv series - io sto così perché ho perso mi figlia. Forse è viva, forse è morta, pero non riesco a sopportare nessuna delle due possibilitá. (Roughly: I am like this because I lost my daughter. Maybe she’s dead, maybe she’s alive, but I cannot survive either possibility.)

because that’s at the heart of the narrrative of both Kerri and Leida, in different ways - cassian who lost the younger sister who was implicitly forced on him to take care of, who was made his responsibility, for no fault of his own, and Mon who knowingly gives her daughter who in so many tiny ways has already been lost to the mere possibility of a rebellion, Mon who takes her daughter to her own living grave. The dual weight of cassian and mon’s very real Missing Daughter complexes could have been, if handled subtly, an absolutely fascinating and constantly quietly brutal through line to season 2 as they (cough the protagonists of this show cough not luthen cough) step into their roles as leaders of the rebel alliance and into not just killing but emotionally manipulating people and then being forced to live with the consequences of what they’ll do for the rebellion. How to handle the weight of his grief and his guilt Cassian has emotionally deluded himself into believing his sister is still alive or at least still findable and to handle the weight of hers Mon has deluded herself into believing her daughter is, on some level, already dead, or at least gone all along. But it can’t be survived, either option, like nothing else on this show can be survived. They never say this out loud, of course, either of them, but you could get the manipulative back and forth of cassian who believes for unstated Reasons that a man with a daughter is a great mark to manipulate because obviously he’d do anything to see her again, and Mon who thinks that’s a bad gamble to make because a lot of parents just don’t actually like their children that much. (There was also a lot to dig into the fact that Dedra meero is a girl who had been lost and had very much been found by the empire. She’s in this too. She’ll destroy them all.)

and then it made me realize how this is, actually, at the heart of the story, because in a very very real way mon mothma and cassian andor gamble the entire fate on the rebel alliance and the entire fate of the galaxy on the possibility that both saw gerrera and Galen erso would do absolutely anything to see their daughter again. Cassian may be all about hope but his hope is pragmatic - he, on some level, truly believes that both the leaders of a rival rebel cell his own isn’t on friendly terms with an an actual imperial officer will gamble their entire fates on the vague chance they might learn whether or not their adult daughter is alive. Both Galen and saw think she’s likely dead. But what if there’s a possibility they can survive that she isn’t? What if? What if?

and that’s what it’s all about, in the end. It’s about how no matter how much time has passed and how scarred and broken either of you is, you’ll do anything, anything at all, to see your daughter again. That’s what it’s about, tony gilroy, that’s the hope. If rogue one is about the woman that the girl who was lost became - and it is - then Andor is about two of the people who lost the girl. That’s the goddamn circle.

“i’m looking for a girl from kenari.”

“When was the last time you were in contact with your father?”

And the thing is. They gamble right.

[vanderdyks]

So here's my thing

I think Andor is practically perfect. I think it is one of the best things on television and it NEEDED to be told. People needed this side of star wars. However... Im struggling with the very fact that K2SO was barely in it.

Listen... I love this droid. And I dont think storytelling should necessary be sacrificed just so I can have more of him. HOWEVER, I was PROMISED him back in 2019. I was promised the K2 and Cassian story. We all waited SO PATIENTLY for his return. Especially after learning right before season 1 came out that we wouldn't have him until season 2.

I was expecting bonding. I wanted to see the moment this droid went from something cassian was wary about to someone he trusted with his life. I wanted to see him be K2's biggest defender. I mean K2 LIVES WITH HIM. And we know that didn't just start the moment K2 got reprogrammed... I wanted to see this droid become his best friend. I yearned so badly for all of that, expected all of that. And I didn't get any of it. And it hurts to know that twenty four episodes exist but K2 only takes up space in about a total of two of them.

I loved episode ten. And Kleya has become one of my new favorite star wars characters because of it. But at the same time, when tony gilroy said when they bring in k2, then he's THERE for the rest of the time, I didn't expect an entire episode without him (or cassian for that matter). Again, I LOVE the episode. But it's the way I was really excited (and had to comfort myself) with the idea that at least I was getting three whole episodes of K2. After learning his solo story was cut. It was only going to be three eps, BUT AT LEAST it was three... it was going to be like another film with him. Only it wasn't. We didn't even get three.

I wanted stories of K2 infiltrating an imperial base and reporting back to cassian. I wanted a story where he saves Cassians life. I wanted the rebellion to be wary of K2 still as Cassian rejected any change to K2 programming/refused to let them power him down or restrict K2 in anyway.

And we didn't get that. Even the episodes he was in, there were long gaps where he wasnt. And you felt that absence. And we can argue the linguistics of storytelling with K2 all day long but the truth is there are WAYS to get around that that STILL include him.

I'm just extremely frustrated. Because on one hand, I love Andor and wouldn't change a single thing about it and on the other... I would have done anything to see that story told. To see their friendship evolved. And maybe it's just me. And I know there's no easy answer to this, I'm not expecting one. But the idea that this is what I have of my favorite droid ever and this is probably ALL ill get after waiting SO LONG for his return... i dont know, it just hurts.

[andorerso]

those fuckass writers did not deserve my girl Jyn, I'm genuinely kind of upset and i know that's stupid but because of the popularity of this show so many people are already disregarding her and the impact she had alongside Cassian in the destruction the death star (i won't even begin to get into the tweets i've seen about her since the finale) I really wish people were able to have actual nuanced takes on media they like because this is now being lauded as the best most progressive peace of Star Wars media ever and like yes in some aspects it is by far the most progressive but also we should be able to acknowledge at the same time that beside Mon Mothma (thank GOD they did my queen justice) the treatment of the women within this show and storyline was ass. What they turned bix into this season has been spoken about at length but also now the complete disregard of Jyn, placing Cassian right at the centre, him being a "messenger" it being his "destiny" disregards the fact that Rogue One was about the group. The sacrifices every single one of them had to make, the things they all risked in order to get the death star plans. The entire mission wasn't just the Cassian Andor adventure. Ugh idk if i'm making sense i'm pissed off

no, you're right about all that! Jyn was ignored, Bix was... uhm I don't even know what that was, and let's also talk about Vel and Cinta?? because the way Cinta was killed off still pisses me OFF, and then Gilroy had the NERVE to say he did it to give Vel luggage (literally fridging) and then he did NOTHING WITH VEL ANYWAY!!! she did nothing this season, and even less after Cinta died. why did Cinta have to die then?!

they didn't deserve Cassian either. the way they mischaracterized him will always be my biggest gripe with this show. even in this LAST ARC, he's disrespecting superior officers and going on unsanctioned missions. Kay jokes about how many orders he disobeyed, haha so funny. because that's TOTALLY the same guy we see in Rogue One. like there's no way it's not on purpose at this point. did Tony Gilroy even watch Rogue One....?

[jynjackets]

Something I haven't seen many people discuss re: Tony Gilroy's issues with writing POC characters is how he managed to Bail Organa out to be the bad guy in favor of hyping up his white OC as the ~One True Rebel Leader~. Since the final episodes aired there have been people flat-out saying that Bail "stole" the Rebel Alliance from Luthen, or that the New Republic fell because there were more Bail Organas than Mon Mothmas---all because of Gilroy's on-screen interpretation of Bail in one scene, which is apparently enough to discredit everything else he canonically did for the Alliance.

It might not have been Gilroy's deliberate intention to have everyone go "Fuck that guy, he's never done anything good" about the one Latino founder of the Rebel Alliance, but I do think his bias in favoring his own (white) characters combined with his unwillingness to consult source material led to Andor!Bail being weirdly out of character compared to every other depiction of him (including the ones in the cartoons). Considering the Fulcrum network was never mentioned in Andor despite Cassian being part of it in his original backstory, I doubt Tony put much effort into researching Bail's background before writing him the way he did. It really felt like the show brought Bail in more because he was in Rogue One and they had to tie him in to Andor somehow, rather than because Tony genuinely thought he was an important character to the overall story.

(To be clear, this is all shade at Tony Gilroy and none at Benjamin Bratt; the recast didn't bother me and I think he did a good job with the script he was given, it's just unfortunate that the script was...what it was).

Agreed anon. The part about undermining all of Mon, Saw and particularly Bail by giving their credit to Luthen is another one of those batshit ridiculous stunts I can’t even take seriously. God forbid bipoc or women do anything.

It’s also the way they couldn’t even respect the ONE fucking legacy latino. They couldn’t even just cameo his ass, they had to vilify him because this show, as I have repeated for years, fucking hates latinos, it’s a core theme.

They also look nothing alike?? Tony googled tan latino actor in his 60s and called it a day.

I knew lore was never happening. Tony never gave a fuck about Rogue One except for his only contribution being the fuckass Ring of Kafrene scene. And I do love the lore around Fulcrum and the Massassi Group and we will still always have it. Anybody eating this up is willfully stupid. They can go have fun with Tony’s OC if they’re fr. But Bail Organa will always mean more to people than they’ll ever know and there’s nothing they can do about it.