#bc i'm not here bc i'm like queerbaited constantly

[chirpsythismorning]

I love it when milkvan accounts have "the superhero and the heart 💜💙" in their bios, like yesss address her by exactly what she doesn't wanna be seen as, and him as how his other love interest standing in the way of milkvan sees him

I can honestly say it's gotten to a point where I feel bad? Like, completely separate from byler obviously, just seeing some of their takes on things, it makes me feel pity almost because their interpretation of what's happening is just so superficial and yet they truly believe it's the most beautiful love story on the planet.

I'm not even the type of byler that hates milkvan tbh. I am a byler that was a milkvan back in the day. Like, I hate to admit this, I hate it so much, but I literally remember rewatching season 2 to prepare for s3's release and I skipped all of s2 practically so I could get to the end to rewatch their reunion! I was that bad!

For those that don't know, s2 was seen as like a big risk from Netflix's perspective, because they were scared that the show would tank since El wasn't with the boys again, specifically Mike, for the entire season. And so I can honestly say, at one point, I contributed to a large sector of fans back then who thought it was the Mike and El show and ended up missing a lot as a result. Though, upon coming across theories post s3 (Mike in front of the closet in Will's room was what opened my eyes officially), I remember rewatching s2 and seeing that shed scene and feeling instantly that it was romantic... And so apparently, all it took was me actually watching it instead of skipping over it to realize....

So that's probably a part of the problem for them still, is that they're watching the milkvan scenes with undivided attention (with rose-tinted goggles), and they're glossing over everything else. Even now, with one season left we still see them downplay Mike and Will's relationship by saying Mike hates Will? And that alone could not make it more obvious that they do not actually watch the show.

Most bylers on the other-hand are capable of watching milkvan scenes, multiple times, like we analyze them to death. And most of us are coming from a good place, genuinely trying to understand these two characters and where they are both coming from. Though, I have yet to see a byler scene be analyzed by milkvans? Like they just don't talk about them beyond downplaying them both romantically and platonically? I'm convinced they've seen every byler scene maybe once bc they were forced to on the first watch but they've avoided their scenes ever since... Not great for their ability to understand the show obviously.

Many of them do in fact view that first meeting in the woods as like them falling in love at first sight. And genuinely, A LOT of people got hooked on Stranger Things in the first place because of Mike and El and them sort of viewing all of their interactions as irrefutably romantic.

And that isn't inherently bad! It's not! But now when you add Will in the mix, you start to see the hypocrisy seep in through the cracks. And it's because by comparison, they view fans merely speculating about Mike's potential feelings for Will as something to be seen as perverted or gross. And so that for me, is when I sort of start to question the groundwork of milkvan.

Because quite frankly, I didn't see any of these people getting angry and defensive about how gross 99% of the audience was for shipping Mike and El in s1-2. As far as I can remember, the show was a hit in large part because it followed this very successful trope of self insert nerdy boy meets girl who is way more 'cool' than him, and people ate that shit up bc we always do. It's what we're used to. It's safe. From what I recall, no one had any problem with Mike trying to kiss El in his basement bathroom after like 3 days of knowing her, during a very traumatic time in their lives and only specifically after Lucas implied Mike was already in love with her and wanted to marry her at this point.

They saw that and said, that's love bitch.

And bylers say this all the time, but it is absolutely true: If the roles were reversed, if El was the best friend of Mike's who went missing and instead Will was a boy they found in the woods while looking for her, fans would have been saying this is obviously a best friends to lovers story between Mike and El!!!.. And that bathroom scene? If that happened between Mike and Will? They would have saw that and said what the fuck kind of sick shit is this.? And maybe it would have been in large part because the circumstances at play, bc it doesn't really matter to me personally when it comes to that situation whether it was a girl and a boy or a boy and a boy, it was an odd choice to make, plain and simple. And that's what I'm trying to say here. That to them, one is true love, and one is disturbing.

Mike's known Will longer. If he is queer (he is), then it's very likely he did have a crush on Will at the time he met El, not necessarily super consciously or anything. But even despite that, I don't think Mike would have felt comfortable with kissing Will in that situation, nor any other boy or girl. They prove this when Mike's makes that comment in s2, chastising Dustin and Lucas for merely being interested in getting to know Max, despite never having spoken a word to her? Like that tells you right there the circumstances and everything at play is what led Mike to try to kiss El in that moment, a moment that was unprecedented and never would have happened in any other scenario.

Even in the case they found Will in the woods instead of El, I don't even think that scene would have happened either? And this is because the whole point of it was for El to ask Mike if she was still pretty despite having a buzz cut (looking like a boy like everyone in the story has been hinting at us that entire season), for Mike to say pretty, really pretty, only for him to look visibly uncomfortable with himself, followed by trying to overcorrect this moment by kissing her.

That scene wouldn't make sense with Mike and Will bc it was happening in the first place because of heteronormativity. And it existing and people thinking it's like peak romance, is in and of itself proving the hypocrisy of an audience that is eventually going to call Will and Mike ending up together, coming out of nowhere and perverted...

Bc you just know if El was Mike's best friend, they never would have had any interest in Will as this boy they found with superpowers. They would have got those scenes of Mike looking everywhere for El and instantly latched onto the boy/girl slow-burn best friends to lovers trope.

The crazy together scene???? If that scene was between Mike and his best friend El, fans would have been rooting for it to end in a kiss... Why do you think the Duffers had that awkward long pause at the end? They were nodding to the fact that this audience is willing to see one thing, but not the other. Even when the thing they're willing to see is overcast by things that should make you a little bit more critical of it in the first place.

Putting Will or any other boy in El's place in that scene in the bathroom or other moments between Mike and El in s1 would have completely removed the romantic lens for most of the audience back then, and it's because... wait for it... HETERONORMATIVITY!

We as a society see a boy and a girl being nice to each other and pressure them to make it official. Hell no a boy and a girl can't just close friends. Either one of them is harboring secret feelings or one of them is gay.

Heteronormativity is literally why most of society latched onto these 2 characters, not necessarily the pieces that made up the whole. And so they have to make up excuses despite the circumstances bc it is so normalized that they don't think twice about it, because they've never had to think twice about it up to this point.

Stories have always catered to them. In fact, the stories we've been exposed to our whole lives has created the expectations we have in the first place.

And so like... I do feel bad but only bc I'm a decent person and don't like to see people hurting genuinely.

No doubt I will feel satisfaction seeing some folks who were hurtful to bylers get a taste of their own medicine, but I genuinely hope that they can eventually learn to accept it and appreciate the story for what the Duffers intend it to be when it's all said and done.

As for the superhero and the heart... again, I feel bad like genuinely, I don't know how to even explain the unnecessary guilt I feel that these strangers who I don't even know are going to be whiplashed tf out of next season...

[icharchivist]

Looking back, nobody quite gaybaited us like BBC shows used to

no but for real i don't think people who throw the word queerbaiting around really were here in the late 00s and early 10s to see the absolute bullshit we got.

like i still think about the Merlin's finale's showrunner commentary saying like 5 times "oh yeah it's clearly a love story between Merlin and Arthur" like are we jokes to you. are we.

Sherlock was also constantly making bait, but tbf i rejected Sherlock from my memories real bad bc i didn't even like the first few seasons to start with (#hipster #hateditbeforeitwascool)

and not BBC but i'm a supernatural veteran. You get so used to be told that it's just crazy shipper stuff that you forget sometimes how stuff were like. There. Like after Nov 5th i was hysterical they at least made it one sided-canon, but also i found it really funny. .... and then i accidentally found a video compiling stuff from the early seasons and some lines STILL fuck me up ("sorry but i'd rather have you, cursed or not" insane insane insane, "i'm hunted, i've rebelled, and i've done all of this for you", “Not for nothing, but the last time someone looked at me like that…I got laid.” WHO WRITE THOSE THINGS. the greatest queerbait of all time.) and then i just got insanely sad that this was the conclusion after 12 years.

i think also like, old queerbait shows used to make so many jokes about those too. So on one hand it was making fun of the fans but also it was like. here? like sorry i'm supposed to be normal after "Sorry, you have me confused with the other angel. You know, the one in the dirty trench coat who's in love with you." im going to chew glass. Nowadays respectable shows wouldn't write those lines unless they actually build up for something!!!

truly. what an era. I never want to see it again. But can't say it didn't scratch a specific inch similar to slow burns that make me go " 'k thanks series we'll take it over from here"

i lost my point somewhere. But yeah. God. The 00s/10s. What a time.

[cassiopeiasara]

Cass, how can you possibly be ok with the queerbait ending of grace and frankie? I expected more bc you’ve been around for a while and are usually more perceptive than this.

Hi there anon, I've been sitting on this ask for a couple of days because, to be honest, I wasn't sure I wanted to answer it. This isn't to say I don't have opinions (as you might read in a minute in case you didn't just ask this in a huff then decide it wasn't worth it when I didn't answer immediately) but I find nuanced discussion on the internet to be rare and for my answer, nuance is crucial. So against my usual judgment of not expressing too much because of the way things snowball, I'm going to give an answer. I won't however be tagging this spoilers or put the show tag on here though I don't mind if this is replied to. I will however put this under a cut because it does indeed include spoilers (though slight ones really) so friends if you're still in the thick of s7, look away now.

While I understand there are folks who have, in the course of the series and with the finale, thoroughly feel the heartbreak and betrayal of a queerbait from this show, I'm not one of them. I'm not here to take away from that experience but I do want to make it clear that it's not mine.

I can't pretend to know wtf went on in many of the thought processes in this show but I do get why it feels especially offensive that a show with a relationship between two women at the center (even when they lost sight of that and didn't treat them as well in some storylines), who constantly prioritize one another above all else, continues to assert that relationship as strictly platonic friendship between two straight women.

It's most especially gut wrenching when queer folks (and those who love them and have done the WORK) know that such a relationship can be defined as much broader than that. I would argue that there is a case to be made for at the very least (which is not to say such relationships are less, just that this must be the starting point for me) a queerplatonic relationship. The love and devotion of grace and frankie is decidedly different than the friendship I've seen between older women (both straight and not) and their friends. I would even argue it's different than shows with similar themes around aging and navigating retirement while still with a group of friends like the golden girls.

That being said, I have found that the way I've approached this show (especially after such iconic seasons for the fandom like s3) is to ask myself who the target audience is and how they might express what they see. The reality is that while many many younger folks (myself included) fell in love with this show, we were never its intended audience. Now this isn't to say I'm not FULLY aware that the intended audience would absolutely have queer folks in it. One, I'm not an idiot and think we never age and two, I'm well acquainted with a few older queers who do watch this show (and were very delighted when I sent them fic but that's a tangent). Anyway, what I've personally gathered from watching so many interviews with Jane and Lily (I got beef with the creators that goes back to the concept of Friends being stolen from Living Single so I don't pay attention to them) is that this show was meant to speak to older women not only about aging and starting over but to a particular experience. And that experience includes being straight and realizing the relationship you thought you had wasn't what you thought and now you have to learn yourself all over and your former partner bc you built a family together. And it's a very isolating experience especially for a generation that lived through the decriminalization of homosexuality that didn't just automatically bring about acceptance. And though that experience might include expanding a worldview that comes to understand queerness in possibly more intimate terms than previously held, that expansion does not always extend to the self.

Now this is a very long winded way of saying that while I don't see grace OR frankie as straight in the least, I can see how a straight audience and straight creators think they're portraying the idea of two straight women whose friendship is especially tender and strong and gives them the partnership neither one of them had in their marriages without any romantic or queer connotations. But just because I can see it doesn't mean I agree.

My hope for this show (bc I gave up expectations in like s4) was that it would end with grace and frankie choosing each other for the rest of their lives and that's what I got. And a loud roar of people can try to tell me that it's strictly platonic but I'm a lesbian who exercises the right to ignore that interpretation and see this obviously celestially blessed queer union as one of the most beautiful love stories I've ever had the privilege to witness.

[breefarrow]

lmao also all these z*amies/larries who keeps on complaining 'if people believe in larry then why not in z*am too?' even saw a vid in youtube with a title 'how closeting works in z*am but not larry' what?the?actual?fuck? kept on compairing larry and their ship how larry is a stereotypical 'gay couple' while z*am isn't. lmao wht is going on inside their head? Kept on claiming that they're a lrrie but shat on us just to bring their ship up. I'm sorry but what they're doing is almost worst as antis

ANON SAY SIKE @spidey-gabs @onlythebravestan @moonshine-009 if any of the three of you log on you need to see this. That is so fucked up to say one essentially "looks like a gay couple" while the other doesn't so that is why less people are z**ms. What tf does a gay couple look like to them? Gay couples don't just look one certain way.

This reminds me of when they say "larrys closeting didn't work while z**ms did" so that's why less people know about/believe in z**m or that Z&Li are 🌈. That is so invalidating to everything larry has been through bc we know damn well their are people who think L is homophobic and straight and some people who think H is a queerbaiting womanizer.

YES to that last part they claim to be OT5s and larries to but I really don't think they are. The way they constantly bring down larry and what they have been through and CONSTANTLY compare larry to z**m. Like what is this this isn't some fuckin game this is REAL people with REAL issues they are dealing with stop doing this.

This tweet here... 👇🏻 👇🏻 👇🏻

... claims we only care about a relationship when all their group ever does is compare z**m to larry and state how what z**m did something "louder" so I'm not so sure we are the ones who only care about a relationship.

And on top of them obsessed with comparing z**m to larry they always compare Li to L&H [example shown in the 1) and 2) tweet.] They constantly state how Li has it worse then H in terms of managers or how Li has it worse then L in terms of promo and being underrated. Yeah come back to me when your fav is NEVER played on the radio. Everytime Li comes out with a new single/collab it gets heavily played on the radio while L songs almost NEVER get played where I'm at [California.]

Heck sometimes I wonder if they even care about Z&Li or they just say they do bc this is all fun and games to them. They constantly are like Z is unhappy LISTEN to him. He actually seems alot more happy and healthy NOW then he did around 2014-2016 but all they care about is z**m soo maybe they don't notice how he's alot better off now then he was before.

LASTLY someone sent me the link to a "z**m basic timeline" post and THIS was in it tf is this? This sounds sooo damn toxic and makes Li look like a shitty ass person and he is not even this calculated of a person to have done this.

👇🏻 👇🏻 👇🏻

[joculatrixster]

i'm on a complete neutral side when it comes to seamoon. i don't mind its popularity nor its fans, hell i respect the ship because you're right! there IS a lack of w|w rep out there! to me, any w|w rep means i auto support. but i still fear how some of its shippers might attack me if i say i ship sea fairy with a different female cookie (anxiety kicking in lol). and it's also bc seamoon isn't really my cup of tea for some reason?? but that doesn't mean it's lesbophobic lol bc i have like, a ton of other w|w ships from cr (and other franchises) i personally love. it's just that seamoon, like any other ship out there, ended up becoming one of those i don't really vibe with but still respect and acknowledge it exists. but honestly, of all the ships in cr, seamoon will most likely be a canon thing sooner or later. personally, respecting heavily implied w|w ships are enough for me, tho i kinda understand how some ppl would wish for more than just acknowledgement. hope this ask isn't too much of a bother for you, i just feel like putting my thoughts here! please have a nice day or night!

oo ok so ur completely valid! actually i dont personally have a problem with ppl who ship sea or moon with other female or nonbinary cookies as long as they dont shit on seamoon.

honestly? its super fucked up to attack others for that, if u dont personally like seamoon but dont ship them with men then im chill cause like not everyone has to like it even if its canon or has the best chance to be canon! the point of protecting seamoon is because as u said the lack of wlw and the fact that media keeps queerbaiting shit like seamoon were its so obvious that the characters are gay but they dont outright state it ir make them make out on screen so other ppl can pretend they arent, if u acknowledge their lesbians and ship them with othwr women then ur fine completely!! seamoon shippers who attack others based off that r being disrespectful and using seamoon to bring down others, their the reason nonshippers think we're crazy imo, now if someone has seamoon as a comfort ship and doesn't want them separated thats fine but as long as ppl respect the wlw woth ships they can do what they want, within reason of course.

the biggest issue for us is people genuinely see moon or sea as bi or straight and i dont think they understand that while YES just because they love a women canonly doesnt mean they can't be bi or pan the issue is ppl deny the queerness is even there or call it onesided, this is coming from a person who does loath how fandom forgets ppl can like all genders but we NEED to establish the wlw before the wlm in this case because there are plenty of wlm female characters in media but only a handful of canon wlw and the fact seamoon is so obvious yet ppl ignore it means we have to be pushy and put our foot down on shipping either, ESPECIALLY sea, with men.

also ur no bother at all! giving ur insight is fine i like talkign to ppl about why certain discourse sucks and seeing new opinions, at the end of the day my opinion is this.

lesbains are constantly erased or used as sex objects in media, the fact that this kids game has 2 of its most important characters as 2 women in love is important, acknowledging their love is important because its rlly quite blantent imo and NOT SEXUALIZED, shipping either with men perpetuates that clear lesbian coding doesnt matter because girls need a man ir women loving eachotheris somehow creepy, do not do this even with bi or pan hcs do not, there are OVER A HUNDRED cookies its not thathard to make characters like princess or croissant or blackberry mspec so why do u feel the need to take away the two wlw ppl who are the most close to canon?

ppl generally forget how much lesbian eraser there is out there and seeing how some of yall treat seas love for mooncalling it onesided or creepy just because ppl cant understand what pining is id say those ppl dont actually care about representation for wlw if they find ppl wanting the HEAVY coding to be respected too annoying.

now all this being said i again want to make it clear, i dont condone harrassment, and i definitely dont candone threats of any kind, seamoon fans CAN be toxic i know, but those ppl do not devaule the center point, if ur soured on the ship cause of that thats fine ship them with other nonbinary or lesbain cookies or not ship them at all ur in the clear to do that but do NOT take that as a queue to be like fuck the lesbains and ship them with men, i do not care how much fire wants moon in his pants hes bi shes not end of story.

[mortuarybees]

I'm honestly super curious, what went on with the good omens video posted by Amazon? Like, what did Neil do wrong here? Do you think Neil should have rewritten the script so they kiss on screen? Wouldn't that have been disrespectful towards the source material? I am asking myself these questions, too, but at the same time I see the two as pretty good ace reps

to me ace rep would’ve been saying theyre ace or acknowledging it in some way in the script rather than like ace and aro fans happening to recognize themselves in these characters

i dont think neilman had an obligation to make them canonically gay or ace or trans or anything else. i totally respect that neilman didnt want to make major changes from the book without terry there to agree to them, i think thats appropriate (tho a lot of major changes were made; i think aziraphale and crowley in the show are very different from their book counterparts and i dont think it wouldve been like. more of a change to have their relationship in some form made canon. but to be fair i dont think neilman intended for their characters to be so different from their book versions and some of it stems from adaptation, some from writing 30 years on, and a lot from the fact that only half the original creative team was involved with writing the show jfldas like watching the show and reading the script compared to the book i can really feel terrys absence)

neilman didnt have anything to do with the amazon video, that was probably just some intern, but it just dredged up a lot of resentful feelings i have and i was talking about all of those more broadly than just the video. the video is just blatant queerbaiting lfdsjfa amazon realized that the most solid base of The Good Omens Fandom is queer people who are just interested in aziraphale and crowley and their relationship and theyre capitalizing on it in a way that makes me bitter. like theres just something about the company that makes and distributes the show making essentially a fanvid that makes me rage dsflaj like make a fun genre show with gay characters and then we’ll talk or actually dont bc death to amazon but anyway

neilman does wrong in like, claiming credit in some way for queer people seeing ourselves in his characters and interpreting them to reflect our experiences, like he intended it somehow and he should get some kind of credit for that when he did absolutely nothing to acknowledge this in canon except as offhand homophobic mocking fjldsaj. like the kind of response i respect from gay creators/actors/etc is like. mark hamill saying like “i mean i didnt intend for luke to be gay or trans but if you see yourself in him i think thats amazing and im really glad” he doesnt like. pat himself on the back constantly for the fact that he accidentally portrayed a character a lot of people headcanon as queer

and to an extent it’s not entirely his fault, a lot of it is people just going to his ask box and twitter and encouraging his input which i personally disapprove of but thats a personal bitter queer opinion, but like. hes one of the biggest most well-known authors of a generation, he can choose what to respond to and what to not online, and i think he got like. excited about the clout and attention he was getting by encouraging and confirming headcanons he did absolutely nothing to represent or acknowledge on page or screen fldsafj

[literaphobe]

hi michelle! so want to start saying that i identify as bi and honestly, I would LOVE it if jake was bi. I think it'd be great. But i'm also okay if he's not, bc how cool is it that they're allowing a man to break down traditional gender norms/roles! i think one of the greatest parts of loving a show like b99 is that it lets us escape the 'real world' for twenty minutes every week. and that means something different for every person watching the show. 1

SO while i believe you are entitled to your own opinions, and you can share them on your blog bc it's yours, i don't think its fair to invite people to share their opinions but shut down anyone who feels differently than you. for example, you said to someone who said they didn't care if jake was bi that you hope they 'get well soon'. also, you posted saying that if bi people didnt want jake to be bi then they're wrong. im sorry but thats really hurtful. you dont get to decide how people think 2

just bc someone feels differently than you doesnt make their feelings less valid, ESPECIALLY someone who identifies as lgbt+. you run a popular blog and it makes me sad to think people might feel their opinions are less valid or wrong bc they see it here. again, im not saying you cant have opinions or post them. but maybe just think about how your words can affect others. also saying this off anon bc i respect you and am open to having a conversation. Thanks for reading, hope u have a good day

hi. thank you for ur mannerly tone and for having the courage to go off-anon.

mlm/bi representation will always be more important than ‘straight man comfortable with his sexuality’. while i am not saying that straight men in media shouldn’t be portrayed as comfortable in their sexualities, the stance that it’s okay to take away representation from people in the lgbt community as long as we have Good Hets is harmful, and it gives people in the tv/movie industries a cop out. they don’t have to give us more lgbt characters! straight characters who Know What’s Up are good enough to make them seem woke and avoid criticism! and whether you’re comfortable with this happening as an lgbt has nothing to do with it. we have to hold the media accountable, we can’t just settle for less. whether you want to watch b99 uncritically or not is entirely up to you. i get that it’s exhausting to analyze the media content you consume! i more than understand just wanting to escape and not ask for more! it’s tiring! it’s draining! it’s disappointing, it hurts so much and it gets so so lonely. but we can’t just let the world stagnate. progress needs to be made constantly, and shows can’t be made to feel like they can just do one or two good things and not be expected to do anything else! i’m not asking you to fight for this, i just want the acknowledgement that this is the right thing to do

i didn’t exactly... invite anyone to say anything. i truly am just sending my thoughts out into the void. and yes, i am aware that my words reach a wider audience because i have a larger than average follower count. of course i know my words can affect others. that’s what i’m trying to do. aside from getting thoughts out my brain, i want to promote a less passive line of thinking. i want lgbt folk to want better for themselves. unfortunately, because words and actions have responses, people will climb into my inbox and start conversations that i inevitably have to take part in (sometimes i don’t though. it really depends on where my head’s at that day. having to discuss this repeatedly is draining). most of the time, i’m just making a statement

i don’t particularly enjoy “shutting down people who feel differently from me”. usually, if i’ve done that, i really am tired because i’ve likely discussed and explained numerous times whatever it is the person who got shut down said to me. i might also come off as mean-spirited or perhaps aggressive if i know some anon is just trying to pick a fight/spew hate at me. if you don’t understand where i’m coming from/don’t believe why having an opposing stance is harmful (this might vary depending on the issue), i am (given i have energy that day) more than willing to elaborate on whatever it is i say here. if i say stuff like ‘get well soon!’ it is a tired response to something i have already covered in depth and i am making some semblance of a joke to deflect/put a lid on the stuff i really want to say (likely because i have already said it) 

i never said that bi people who didn’t want jake to be bi were wrong. i was trying to get them to think deeper and explore why they don’t want that. being lgbt sometimes means that we allow and normalize a lot of unfair treatment. we think that we have it good enough so we decide not to ask for more, to settle. and i will never blame any lgbt for falling victim to this line of thought. we were brought up to think this way, we were conditioned to think this way. acceptance does not equal inclusion, and sadly many of us are so grateful for the acceptance that we do not bother to even think about having inclusion. or, better inclusion, for that matter. of course, it is definitely not up to me to decide how anyone thinks. i’m just trying to convince you! very desperately. but if you don’t agree no matter what i say then what can i do? it’s your life. it doesn’t affect me much in the grand scheme of things. i’m not going to hate you for disagreeing. i’m not going to sic the dogs on you. am i going to be kind of annoyed if someone walks into my inbox, turns on anon, and hurls insults at me? yes, that’s hurtful, and it’s kind of funny sometimes depending on how dumb you sound, but it’s mostly tiring and a lot of pain. so like... read, if u don’t like it, move on, if your well-being is drastically affected from reading the things i say, i’ll tag it so you can blacklist 

the sad thing is, being a member of the lgbt community doesn’t automatically make your opinions on lgbt issues valid/unproblematic. internalized homophobia exists. things i described in the point above can lead to this. just because a bi person says ‘im bi! and i don’t care/don’t think bi jake is important!’ doesn’t mean that suddenly, there is no need for him to be canonically bi, that we aren’t being queerbaited/pandered to by the show. do i think that the show is intentionally/heinously queerbaiting us? not exactly. but lack of awareness and lacking understanding on why bi-coding jake w no intention to make it canon is just as harmful bc it produces the same result (in jake’s case)

once again, i don’t intend for people to feel “less valid/wrong” when they read what i have to say on this blog. self-reflection is important. sometimes, people have opinions that are wrong! including myself! which is why more often than not i think deeply into the things people say to me here and consider whether my opinion holds up. you don’t have to feel bad for being wrong. we are all constantly wrong on stuff. everyone, at some point, has had a bad take/the wrong take on something. if you hold yourself up to this standard that you must always be right or you are suddenly a horrible person/must feel bad and demoralized, i suggest that you change your approach to issues such as this. i hate to say this but it is not my job to make sure everyone is 100% cool and chill about everything i do and say here. some things need to be said. some things need to be acknowledged. i’m sorry if any of you have been hurt/upset by anything i’ve ever posted but after a certain point... that is your issue and not mine 

[northby-northwest]

OKAY, HERE WE GO.

The friendship I'm gonna be using is Nate and Ray from Legends of Tomorrow because I think they're a really well-written friendship with amazing chemistry that isn't queercoded/queerbaiting. I don't feel like the writers are intentionally making them thinly-veiled romantic interests, like Kara and Lena, and they also have a similar rich-tech genius and smart jock dynamic and relationship experiences, so thats why i'm going with them. p.s.- this isn't me saying steel atom isn't a valid ship or anything, I think their relationship is great and I'd be totally for them getting together, however, I don't think they're written to be one another's love interests.

Part 1- '" love you"s. When saying, 'I love you", Nate and Ray say it like it's a reinforcement of something they both know. They add it at the end of conversations or as a reassurance, kind of like saying hello or goodbye. It's quick and said with a goofy smile.

When Kara and Lena say they love each other, it's like a confession. Their smiles are small and their voices are often quiet,,,,, yk like romantic partners do. They don't say 'i love you' in place of other phrases (like bye), but in private.

part 2- physical contact. Nate and ray constantly touch one another- it's like a big part of their relationship. They bro-hug and fist bump and high-five- ray even kissed Nate's cheek once. However, it's 'thrown away'. The physical contact isn't dwelled on- it occurs commonly in the background, like how a kid would hold their friend's hand or how you'd give your friend a hug in an exciting moment. when they touch, theres no swelling music except if its an emotional scene.

Kara and Lena rarely touch. like, go rewatch the show- they basically only hug each other hi and bye. and those hugs are really awkward. have you ever hugged your crush hi/bye and you literally don't know what to do bc you're sO CLOSE? yeah. Instead, in scenes where best friends would lean on one another or pull them by their hand or touch a shoulder, they just nearly touch. They stand next to each other but situate themselves in a way they don't fucking touch. once again- have you ever been standing next to someone you like and like you do everything you can to avoid contact or else you'll be thinking about it for days and they might realize you like them (seriously I hope this isn't just a me thing that'd be awk)? Anyway, when they do touch, it's in really high points of tension. their contact is gentle and soft, and there's swelling music in the background or they're just so relieved to see the other they can't not touch the other, just to make sure they're okay.

part 3- sacrificing themselves for the other, bc that happened for the both of them too. When ray gives himself to Neron to keep from hurting nate, he also had somewhat of a moral obligation to not-kill-his-best-friend. naturally. he also has some character traits that drive him to do that- it is not just his love for nate that makes him sell his soul to a demon (even though it plays a part in it).

However, Kara has pretty often gone against her morals to save lena. for example, when she's flying with heavy shit in one hand and lena in something in the other. disclaimer, I don't remember the EXACT circumstances of this scene, but I remember lives were on the line and she almost had to pick between saving a larger amount of people and lena. she actively risked other people's lives by taking the time to save lena. This was actively against her morals- she believes in many lives over one, as evidenced in the season 2 finale (the 'one' being mon-el!!! she picked the majority over the dude she was canonically in love with. makes ya think). People don't usually violate their morals for their best friends, but for people they love.

okay have a good day

im gonna write a really long winded comparison of kara and lena to other friendships in the arrow verse to show they’re fucking queer coded just. gimme a few hours

[breefarrow]

Hi. I have not been on twitter or even in the fandom long enough so i came here to ask you about something. What's with the song claiming thing? Suddenly ziams are claiming songs that have been claimed as larry song. No I'm not gate keeping. Pardon my word choice.I'm not English. But I'm just curious. As long as i have been in this fandom, no control was a larry song the moment it came out and everyone was ok with it and even ziams never claimed it before.now suddenly they are like oh liam also wrote it? Home has always been larry song considering the timeline, him leaking and all, ziams never claimed it before, now suddenly home is a ziam song too? 18 was taken as a larry song from the moment ed said it was written from 1D perspective and everyone was ok with it considering how Louis used to literally serenade Harry like turning his whole body,changing pronouns etc. No one had a problem untill now. Suddenly in 2020/21 ziams are claiming it. Why didn’t they do it before? Why now? I'm just curious.

Warning selfies have been a thing with Louis for years. Now suddenly it is linked with liam too? How? Did he do it before or something? I genuinely don't know. So let me know plz.

The whole devlin thing, devlin album came out in 2017 i guess and they comparing Louis tweet with zayn tweeting that is from 2016. How does that make sense?

Also some people say larry closeting didn’t work but ziam did...awful thing to say. If it didn’t work then there wouldn’t be so many antis and they are still going through so much. People wouldn’t believe Harry dates every woman that breaths around him. And they claim there are two bbg in ziam relationship right? Why did they need two bbg if it worked? I mean if the closeting worked? Bbg has nothing to do with relationships.

Idk if ziam was real or not but I'm sure gigi was pregnant, she had that symptoms, pregnancy glow,tired face and all. Now whoever the father may be..idk.

I'm not convinced about ziam and how does that make me hypocrite? Also there are some "if this counts(larry),this counts too(ziam)" thread. what's with the comparison?

Sorry about the rant.

Hello anon wow this is long a lot to unpack so I'll start with your song questions.

Idk why ziammies are suddenly trying to claim songs that have ALWAYS been larry related. Especially when Liam said in an interview that Louis and him were a song writing duo for 1D BUT that he wrote the melodies and it was Louis who wrote the song lyrics. Last I checked melodies don't equal meaning of a song so how are these songs about ziam?

Some examples of this....

They are trying to claim Home but Liam said the song was personal to Louis and how when he read the lyrics he didn't want to change them. Home is also a direct response to If I Could Fly with ONLY Harry on the credits. Home was leaked by Louis the night of Belfest when Larry found out BG was being taken pasted the birth of a kid and it pissed off Louis so he leaked Home as payback bc it was clearly a loud song management didn't want on the album.

They are trying to claim 18 but the song was written by Ed who said [compared to other 1D songs he wrote for them] he wrote 18 with a 1D member in mind. [That is why we claim the song at all.] Ed was closeted in the band to Harry next being Louis and Niall he was the least closeted to Zayn and Liam. Side note Ed has a song called Friends that he said was about 2 friends of his who fell in love and when a fan yelled L&H he laughed/smirked and said init so it makes the most sense 18 was written with Harry in mind. Plus 18 is about meeting/loving someone sense they were 18 and it was only Louis who was 18 when they all met and it was Harry who would scream NO 16 when singing the song. Also larry changed the lyrics to HIM and would stare directly at each other when singing 18 livem According to ziam MPs ziam weren't a couple until at least 2 years into the band so why would 18 make sense for them also given they were both 17 when they met & none ever went NO 17 when singing it.

They are trying to claim No Control but that song as we know is about the morning after sex and the second round they end up having. Like stated before Louis wrote the lyrics to 1D songs and Niall plus Larry always made it DAMN CLEAR what that song was about. Also remember when Harry would always jam out hard core when Louis would sing his part in No Control aka majority of the song. Yeah that song is Louis song no doubt.

They try to claim Alive which makes no sense bc Zayn nor Liam is on the credits at all only Louis. They say it's bc Liam said he related to the song ok I see that but still he didn't write it and still how does this song equate to ziam? Alive is more a song used as proof Louis isn't straight bc it's about self exceptance of who you are even tho others around you for along time made u feel there is something wrong with you. It's about Louis who is more confident part way through the story being told and then helping his lover [who seems to be a bit insecure about themselves] except and love who they are. Since Liam didn't write on it the relationship aspect couldn't be about him and Zayn. Since he said he just relates to Alive at BEST it could mean he might not be straight but it can't be used as proof of who his partner is when he didn't write on it.

There's others but I think you get the point they have always been larry or hinting at Louis sexuality songs so I don't get why or how they are suddenly saying their ziam songs? Myself @lovemylarents and @fearlessmoon09 think bored people in quarantine is what happened to change the landscape.

To your next question warning selfies...

So warning selfies was something Louis did everytime something BG stunt related was going to happen. He started it and did it a ton back in 2016/17 when BG stunting was massive for him. Liam never had anything to do with warning selfies and Louis warning selfies were ALWAYS like I said BG related so suddenly ziammies going Liam does warning selfies for things involving Maya or Gigi makes no sense. It was ALWAYS a Louis thing.

For the Devlin thing...

You hit the nail on the coffin with that one the album with the song Cold Blooded that had the lyrics "so is it true XXXX fathered a baby? I don't really think so, if you ask me he don't like ladies. Could have been HARRY, yeah, I bet it was HARRY" [emphasis on Harry bc I saw a ziammie change the lyrics to Liam] came out in 2017 while Zayns tweet was done in 2016. Unlike Louis tweet which was specifically about this album not just the artist and tweeted during the height of BG stunting. So not the best comparison. They really should fact check before making these "larries are hypocrites" threads bc veteran larries know and fact check everything.

Next thing you mentioned what I call their slogan "larries closeting didn't work but ziams did that is why less talk about/believe in ziam then larry" piss me off so much and what you said it right. If larry's closeting didn't work then we wouldn't be here complaing about how the GP sees Harry as a queerbaiting womanizer, how solo henries who want to have sex and suck Harry's dick exist and how some locals don't want to join Louis fandom bc they think Louis and his fans are homophobic or that twarries exist thinking Louis is a deadbeat dad. Tell me again ziammies how their closeting didn't work? It is so invalidating to everything larry has been put through. Also if larry's closeting didn't work but ziams did then why did they need 2 BGs for Ziam and only one for Larry? Myself @kaybutlarry @babyhoney-28 and @onlythebravestan are still waiting on an answer to that question haven't gotten one.

As you said about Gigi yes she definitely looked more pregnant then Briana ever did. The reason I don't believe in their BG with Gigi is bc their story is inconsistenent. Side note back when Liam had a kid no one besides a few on tumblr ever said it was BG 2.0 they didn't start saying BG 2&3 until Gigi happened. Back to inconsistenences so their original story when we first learned Gigi was pregnant was it's fake just like Briana there's no kid, then when Gigi did the livesteam showing she had a bump and a round face you get when pregnant the story changed to she's pregnant the kid is just not Zayn's.

Then I recently saw some who [after the kid was born] went back to the story the kid is fake there is no kid OR they are using a child actor. Unlike Louis BG they don't have a consistent story that makes sense. Also the kids are never shown unlike with Louis kid F gets posted every damn day with creepy and bad photoshop, and a million articles about how he is Louis twin to shove it down our throats the kid is Louis. The situations have NEVER been the same with Louis vs even just Liam kid.

To your last point ziammies keep calling and making threads about how larries are hypocrites bc we don't believe what they do which is damn annoying bc they constantly say just leave us alone why do you care we exist but then constantly make threads like that getting mad we aren't all ziammies. If your going to make threads against us then yeah were going to say something and respond to your threads the way we would to a debunking larry anti thread. Their threads like that are either using funny coincidences of larry that we don't use as concrete proof to compare to ziam OR their ziam version of our proof has been debunked already like the Ziam Levine Stylinson sticker on the bears. [If you want more info on that ask @lovemylarents.]

They constantly take what is a larry proof and say it's also about ziam [Example the songs] or have a ziam proof that mirrors a larry proof. [Example the devlin thing or selfies] In their threads they always compare miniscule larry things that aren't our MAIN proof. See the miniscule proofs are the house and the big proofs are the concrete foundation that without it those miniscule things would not be able to really count as proof of larry and the larry house would fall. Ziammies ONLY have miniscule proof not a very solid foundation so I'm unsure how long their house will last.

I have been in this fandom for 10 years I have seen MANY ships come and go [Examples: Ziam, Ziall and Narry] but the one ship that has always been here was Larry. Larries have been here for 10 years, Larries are the ones who are talked about in the media, Larries are the ones constsntly gaslighted, Larry is the one ship that needs to be denied a bunch [poorly might I add] there's NEVER been any other ship or ship group people have hated, gone against or talked about this much besides Larries/Larry.

Funny [not for us] but funny that Liam goes through all the trouble of gaslighting Larries and talking about EVERY Louis stunt but he never mentioned Ziam which is a ship that actually involves him or the Ziammies who say Bear isn't his kid. Why did he talk about US and not THEM which involve him? Also funny Liam can easily say the word Ziam but Louis can't pronounce an EASY @ just bc it has the word Eroda in it.

My mutrals and I all agreed we didn't give af that ziammies existed until they kept talking shit about how we aren't ziams to and then go why are larries acting like antis hating us. First off it was NEVER larries hating on them it was toxic solo Zsquad and solo Liam stans who were. We didn't get involved until the entire tl was LARRIES ARE HATING US AND BEING HYPOCRITES. Second off and my last thought it's easy if you don't want us in your replies then don't make threads about us being hypocrites and use easily debunked ziam proof or miniscule larry proof to mirror bc we will point it out bc you think were hypocrites thank you.