#based on Homer's Iliad
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"The gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment may be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again."
Troy (2004)
#Edit#Troy (2004)#movie quotes#based on Homer's Iliad#Homer#Iliad#envy#jealousy#mortality#doom#Greek mythology#Ancient Greek literature#epic poetry#Greek epic#poetry#poetry quotes#quotes#quotes blog#literary quotes#literature quotes#literature#book quotes#books#words#text#Greek gods
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So lately I’ve been seeing a lot of posts asking people to stop trying to make Odysseus look nice in their works cuz he’s a “messed-up person in the mythology”. Your opinion is valid however I have but one thing to point out:
You want to know who started all this? Who started to “make Odysseus look nice” in the first place?
It’s Homer. It’s nobody else but Homer himself.
A non-Homeric Odysseus would try to murder people out of his own interests. He’d murder Palamedes without remorse (and we’d be cheering over this but it’s a murder after all), he’d attempt to murder Diomedes just to get the Palladium himself, he’d volunteer to kill Astyanax…meanwhile you wouldn’t find any mention of either Palamedes or Nauplius in Homer’s poems, neither did he mention anything abt the Palladium heist (and Diomedes necessity did not happen until Conon’s version), the death of Astyanax, the distribution of war prizes, etc. And all the details in the Odyssey seemed to deny the existence of Nauplius’s vengeance at all, so Odysseus would not take any of the blame.
A non-Homeric Odysseus would be depicted as “cruel, treacherous”, meanwhile in book 10 of the Iliad Odysseus was not mentioned to have killed anyone during the marauding, neither did he promise Dolan anything at all. The negative interpretations are denied by these details subtly put by Homer.
A non-Homeric Odysseus would be widely known as a “coward” for only shooting arrows from afar. But Homer gave him a spear and had him absolutely slaying in both the Iliad and the Odyssey. That part of Ajax’s speech was invalid already.
Most importantly—a non-Homeric Odysseus would be having kids everywhere else, and the loyalty to his own wife as seen in the Odyssey is no where to be found. Meanwhile his lineage was a single-son line made by Zeus in the Odyssey, and his love for Penelope was one of his main drives, especially seen in book 5 of the Odyssey. He loved his family as a loving parent—something you don’t get to see in most of the non-Homeric writings—for most of the time they followed a different tradition indeed, in which Odysseus wasn’t half as nice as in the Odyssey.
TL;DR: in case you haven’t noticed, the characterization of the Homeric Odysseus was quite different from a non-Homeric version of Odysseus. It’s not that Homer didn’t know of the existence of other versions—he knew them too well, which is why in his version of the story, you don’t get to see any mention of them.
#and now hot take: your opinion is invalid cuz there isn’t supposed to be such a term as “nice” when describing a person#he did not join the war willingly and the war crimes he did were out of necessity#no god has judged him on these “war crimes” so neither should you#not especially when you’re basing it on your modernized view of this matter while the ideology of heroes is so different in ancient times#there isn’t such a term as “nice” or “not nice” when it comes to an Ancient Greek hero#they’re complicated persons with feats on their shoulders and family of their own#tagamemnon#the iliad#the odyssey#homer’s iliad#homer’s odyssey#the epic cycle#homer#odysseus#epic the musical#tagging epic cuz I’ve seen such opinions directing at Epic!Odysseus—but how on earth was he a “nice” person#he did much horrible things in act 2 and isn’t that what you would like to see or did I smell double standards?#*shrugs* I do not direct this at anyone—just at some specific opinions I’ve read online#anyways there’ll always be arguments but let’s just agree on the fact that he’s a grey character and he did stay grey in these adaptations#so fricking tired of these negative commentaries which are not constructive at all#Lyculī sermōnēs
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Odysseus once took a 5mg edible and spent the next three hours nonverbal and motionless on a couch with his hands over his eyes.
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could you draw patrochilles please?
Nothing like getting ready to commit war crimes with your husband
#based more so on the iliad than soa#but both work#achilles#patroclus#patrochilles#the iliad#the odyssey#song of achilles#art#digital art#artists on tumblr#greek mythology#greek gods#fanart#greek myth art#homer's iliad#iliad achilles#iliad patroclus#achilles fanart#patroclus fanart
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God I love epic poetry. The Iliad, which deals with mortality, remembrance, and fate vs free will. The odyssey, about perseverance and the indomitable human spirit. And…..um…. *checks notes on paper* their bastard cousin, a propaganda about the founder of rome and how cool and strong and sexy he was????
#the aeneid#I saw another post about the aeneid and now that I know there’s a fan base I needed to make a post#arma virumque cano#Greek mythology#epic poetry#poetry#Homer#the Iliad#the odyssey
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It's crazy to realize that the most famous things about the Trojan War, things so culturally understood they've become common phrases in english, aren't actually in the most famous narrative about the Trojan War.
The Trojan Horse, Achilles Heel, The Face That Launched a Thousand Ships, are only referenced to or recalled by other people. They aren't a part of the main action and thrust of the narrative at all.
Imagine a world where the layman's understanding of the Trojan War included Hera seducing Zeus to trick him into not helping the Trojans or Diomedes and Odysseus going on a night raid and slaughtering dozens of Thracians. Or if we called dying having your 'limbs untied' because Homer popularized it.
#The Illiad#Homer#Greek Mythology#what i thought the iliad was (based on cultural osmosis and The Song of Achilles) is so different to what it actually is#Curious if any of this stuff is in The Odyssey cause maybe that explains it
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#greek mythology#achilles#the iliad#homeric iliad#iliad achilles#ginger Achilles#hades game#hades patroclus#patrochilles#a weird mix where i base achilles on the iliad bit patroclus on the hades game/modern media#my achilles has even longer hair#it was just hard to draw for what i had in mind#pretend its over his left shoulder#or stuffed into his hoodie
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- slightly modified the conversation from the original text - they dont wear armor because, duh, I dont want to - I mean, if greek artists never bothered, why would I...
#the iliad#homer's iliad#achilles#trojan war#hector#achilles vx hector#ancient greek mythology#ancient greece#ancient greek literature#comic illustration#comic art#colorful#my artwork#based on the books#comic pages#homer#hector of troy#violent language#content warning#the death of hector#the rage of achilles#classic literature
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i'm fundamentally opposed to book titles in translations of ancient epics ('beguilement on mount ida,' 'a hero's son awakens,' 'the olive tree bed,' 'camilla's finest hour,' 'juno served by a fury') bc it just seems like too much to me to presume you know what single thing the book is really about, but christopher logue is allowed to do it
#i have the collected volume but just bought the husbands (books 3-4) and yeah. he's right. that IS what books 3 and 4 are about#fitzgerald does call iliad 3 'dueling for a haunted lady' which is cool but the rest of his book titles suck#iliad 18 isn't 'the shield of achilles' and aeneid 8 isn't 'the shield of aeneas' there's a LOT more going on in both#even aeneid 5 isn't just REALLY about the funeral games (bc its also about the first punic war)#and all the more so with the homeric epics whose book divisions were not intentional and who had no author to focus on a single thing at on#titles are useful indicators of what the translator thinks the book is really about and what they think everything else is supporting tho#like does the translator think the embassy to evander is central and the shield a supporting detail or vice versa?#(aeneid translators are 50/50 on whether book 8 should be titled based on the shield or based on evander and the arcadians btw)#and like. does odyssey 4 take its title from menelaus' tale or helen's tale or do you call it 'the king and queen of sparta' or something#its really funny when translators try to do book titles with the metamorphoses though#'impious acts and exemplary lives'? 'of the ties that bind'?#those tell me nothing about what's even in the book let alone what the translator thinks the most important part is#(this is a not small part of the reason i have not gotten the new stephanie carter translation.#efforts to divide epic neatly even into the book divisions used by the author rub me the wrong way.#going beyond that and presuming to be able to say where one story ends and another begins... it's not for me)#mine
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Sometimes i remember we did 2 hours of iliad per week for an entire school year and it was taught so horribly, like how can you butcher one of the most beloved ancient texts THIS badly?
#the iliad#gr education system is based for how they give two entire years to homer#but the way these lessons are structured is heartbreaking
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Unpopular opinion probably (maybe?) but I think people are over the top in how much they hate on song of achilles. It was a solidly fine YA (new adult? Idk) romance/myth retelling and my understanding is that the author is a classicist so she does actually know what she's writing about
#i will give that there are some weaknesses in the character writing but like. its fine. she didnt ruin lit with myth retellings or anything#ive just seen a lot of really extreme opinions on it lately that uh. honestly came across a bit homophobic#oh also because i know i looked this up once but its not only based on homer there's other versions of the story#and i have definitely seen criticism of x part of the story bc it didnt match the iliad but it did have basis in other versions of the myth
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Bitches be like "Oh Hades always has to deal with his stupid youngest brother Zeus who cannot keep it in his pants."
First of all, Ancient Greeks didn't wear pants.
Secondly, Hades and Zeus are actually decent with each other. Hades isn't ashamed of asking him for help whenever he considers that there's the case, whereas Zeus trusts his eldest brother enough to give one of his daughters as his wife. There's also this whole discourse claiming that Zeus got the best and Hades got the worst, but if you actually give a second thought to it the Underworld actually has some of the greatest peaks: besides the fact that you're extremely rich all the mortals eventually become your subjects. Even poets stated that in numerous works:
Ovid, Fasti 4. 443 (trans.Boyle) (Roman poetry C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"[Zeus speaks :] ‘My rank is no greater [than Haides]. I hold court in the sky; another rules the sea [Poseidon], and one the void [Haides].’"
Or:
Seneca, Hercules Furens 53 (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) :
"Dis [Haides] himself, who drew a lot equal to Jove's [Zeus's]."
But if you're so desperate to give Hades a brotherly rivalry then I'm here to tell you that there's no need to erase all of Zeus' qualities (leadership skills, wisdom, long-term planning, determination, cunning etc.) and over exaggerate all of his bad actions in order to portray him as an incompetent asshole Hades always has to deal with. You could simply give Hades and Poseidon this type of dynamic instead.
Poseidon is way more impulsive, temperamental and testy than Zeus. He doesn't hesitate to show his wrath, let aside make others suffer because of it. On top of that, he's the god of the sea and earthquakes, and he's also almost as powerful as Zeus. His attributes and realm could easily represent a threat to the Underworld if he lets his anger go too far.
Take this passage from the Iliad as a relevant example:
Homer, Iliad 20. 67 ff :
"Poseidon from deep under them shuddered all the illimitable earth, the sheer heads of the mountains. And all the feet of Ida with her many waters were shaken and all her crests, and the city of Troy, the ships of the Akhaians (Achaeans). Aïdoneus [Haides], lord of the dead below, was in terror and sprang from his throne and screamed aloud, for fear that above him he who circles the land, Poseidon, might break the earth open and the houses of the dead lie open to men and immortals, ghastly and mouldering, so the very gods shudder before them; such was the crash that sounded as the gods came driving together in wrath."
Dude was freaking out in this scene. During the entire Greek Mythology he's presented as stoic and rarely frightened, but when his brother was causing a strong earthquake he was shitting himself and sucking his thumb like a baby (metaphorically). For the first and last time we see a god being vulnerable and scared by other gods in a similar way a mortal who is about to lose all of his property and belongings would be. Poseidon is pretty much capable of drowning the entire Underworld or exposing it to the Aboveworld if he wants to, so who's actually the more problematic brother? The one who can maintain his calm and control and understands better how distructive power can be, or the one whose anger was on the edge of breaking the border between the realms of the living and the dead?
What if people would stop completely changing the original personalities of the Greek Gods and create more headcanons and fanfictions based on what's actually stated (or at least what is suggested/more plausible) in the myths?
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Odysseus drives a Honda Odyssey that he shares with Anticlea. It is nicknamed Deerslayer due to the great terror it has brought upon local wildlife.
#odysseus#the odyssey#the iliad#homer#anticlea#based on true events#a little on the nose but we think we’re funny
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Hi Cain, I was wondering how do you create different designs for the same character? Like your Odyssey!Odysseus design vs your Epic!Odysseus design, how do you design one without it ending up looking like the other?
Hmmm it kinda depends on what I want the character to look like/what I want his vibes to me if that makes sense? So my odyssey!Odysseus has sharper features but also is based on his description in the Iliad, so he's pretty bulky and hairy lol. Big like a ram but with sharp angles on his face to allude to his trickier nature. He's also a bit older lol and has curlier hair
Epic!Odysseus isn't as buff and he's boxier with softer edges, so he's not as sharp featured as Homeric Odysseus. He looks more like an honest man if that makes sense lol. That was so it also contrasts his whole "monster" arc later in the musical, because he starts out soft and by the end his features have hardened.
If you've seen that animation trick from arcane they pull between jinx and powders, it's kind of like that for the both of them! When I want him to look more intimidating I draw him with sharper corners and straighter lines (and smaller eyes) but when I want him to look more innocuous he looks softer and his eyes(pupils?) are bigger. But they both have primarily different shape language to better show what I want to come across
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The Odyssey, book 5, line 151–155:
τὸν δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ἐπ᾽ ἀκτῆς εὗρε καθήμενον: οὐδέ ποτ᾽(1) ὄσσε δακρυόφιν τέρσοντο, κατείβετο δὲ γλυκὺς αἰὼν νόστον ὀδυρομένῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι ἥνδανε νύμφη.(2) ἀλλ᾽ ἦ τοι νύκτας μὲν ἰαύεσκεν καὶ ἀνάγκῃ(3) ἐν σπέσσι γλαφυροῖσι παρ᾽ οὐκ ἐθέλων ἐθελούσῃ:(4) She (Calypso) found him (Odysseus) sitting on the shore—never once were his eyes Dry of tears, while his sweet life was passing away Lamenting his homecoming, for the nymph no longer pleased him. But indeed in the nights he slept, by force, In her hollow caves, unwilling beside the willing (nymph).
(1) οὐδὲ ποτέ: this is a good phrase to invoke pathos, as we see οὐδέ, “never”, being put alongside ποτέ, “once, at any time”, showing the picture of Odysseus crying on Ogygia since day one, never once free from sorrow. Notice, too, how this phrase comes first and foremost, presenting itself as a lead-up to the entire sentence, overshadowing this part with a sense of melancholy.
(2) ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι ἥνδανε νύμφη: I’ve been seeing a lot of interpretations based on this one single sentence, “…since she no longer pleased him”—but you know what? Just a reminder that in Ancient Greek, the word ἥνδανε (it’s 1st person singular indicative form being ἁνδάνω), with the meaning “pleased, delight”, is mostly used in the context of “being pleased with ransoms/words/food and drink…”, which is anything that promises material gains:
(e.g. “ἀλλʼ οὐκ Ἀτρεΐδῃ Ἀγαμέμνονι ἥνδανε θυμῷ”, Iliad. 1.24: but it (Achaeans’ assent to Chryses’s speech that promised ransoms) did not please the heart of Agamemnon son of Atreus; “…ἐμῷ δ᾽ οὐχ ἥνδανε θυμῷ”, Odyssey. 10.373: but it (Circe’s urging of Odysseus to eat the food) did not please my heart; “…μάλιστα δὲ Πηνελοπείῃ / ἥνδανε μύθοισι…”, Odyssey, 16.397–398: but he (Amphinomus) pleased Penelope the most with his words; etc.)
Which means, in this case, the pleasure Calypso could’ve brought Odysseus was only material: food and drink to keep him from starving, shelter to keep him from dying… and nothing more.
(3) ἀνάγκῃ: the dative singular of the word ἀνάγκη means “force, constraint, necessity” and sometimes even more, “torture; anguish, pain” (the latter is more seen in tragic plays), but here I believe the former meaning alone is more than enough to demonstrate the lack of consent in Odysseus when he slept beside Calypso.
(4) παρ’ οὐκ ἐθέλων ἐθελούσῃ: I love this line so much—the way Homer uses the participle of the verb ἐθέλω “to be willing” twice, each in different gender—the masculine nominative one for Odysseus being οὐκ έθέλων “ not willing”, the feminine dative one for the nymph being ἐθελούσῃ “too willing”, and putting them together to fit both the meter and the theme? This is literally perfect.
#tagamemnon#the odyssey#greek mythology#odysseus#homer’s odyssey#ancient greek#my translation#calypso#homeric epics#lyculī sermōnēs#EDIT: that is Chryses’s speech and seems like I typed Calchas subconsciously? It’s been fixed now
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Achilles and Patroclus: Friends Lovers or both? (An analysis based on Homeric Epics and some ancient sources)
Yet another analysis requested by my dearest friend @artsofmetamoor while we two explore the complexity of human relationships in our own projects including romantic relationships of various kinds, including homosexual and homoerotic material as well as more traditional notions of family and kinship along with the complexity of values such as companionship and friendship, which we hold in the same regard as in the above so here's one of the most discussed relationships in greek literature. Buckle up with me because it is gonna be a looooong ride!
Achilles and Patroclus are two figures of greek literature and mythology that sparked discussions and analysis from the very first time they were introoduced as characters in the homeric poems in 8th century BC and not for their heroics in Trojan War but rather the nature of their relationship. Not to mention in modern day times we also start the rather overused and kinda ridiculous joke of "Historians say" around. But there might be some truth in some concerns in regards to their relationship.
A small history of their family
Achilles and Patroclus were related by a distant ancestor, Aigina. Aigina had a son with Zeus named Aeacus who in turn got married and had Peleus, who has the father of Achilles. Patroclus comes from the same line for Aigina later marries Actor and has Menoetius with him. Menoetius marries his cousin Damocratea, also possible daughter of Zeus and had a son named Opus who in turn had Patroclus, making Patroclus and Achilles de facto first cousins by the line of Aegina
(Yes...sorry "Troy" haters out there...hahaha Patroclus really WAS Achilles's cousin! ^^; Not that it ever stopped anyone in greek mythology!)
Patroclus was ellegedly exiled from his homeland when he accidentally killed his playmate and he fled to the court of Peleus where he got adopted by him thus the two characters lived most of their childhood together. Patroclus by most accounts is quite older than Achilles so in a way he was also assigned not only as his playmate but also as his "squire" or protector in various occasions. Needless to say that of course the two of them developed a very strong bond together.
Greek Text
To be honest, every time some person who does support the theory of them being lovers is being asked on it and that person claims that "the greek text is quite simple really". Allow me to disagree though. It is not. Quite frankly if it were, it wouldn't have sparked the conversation even to ancient greeks themselves of their time!
Arguably Homer never explicitly describes them as lovers in his poems (as opposing to other figures in the text that are undoubtedly sharing sexual relationships in the Iliad such as Hera and Zeus, Paris and Helen or even, ironically Achilles with Briseis once she is returned to him). However one would be a liar if they denied certain insinuations of a romantic involvement betwen the heroes.
Φιλέω-ώ= to love < > φίλος=friend, companion (Substantive), beloved (epithet)
Quite frankly Homer as we said before he a master of words and none of his words is picked at random. And the term φίλος is no exception. The word is being explicitly used in Homer by various of characters. The term can be translated interchangably from either "friend" to "beloved" depending the context. One of the most infamous and touching moments this word is being used is at the lament of Achilles when his mother asks him to speak up on why he laments so hard:
With heavy groans, fast in feet Achilles responded to her: "Oh, my mother! The Olympians have done what they had predicted for me! But what joy remains for me, for my beloved comrade Patroclus is gone! I lost him! The one that I valued most among my other companions, equally to my own life!"
(Translation by me)
In here the concept of "φίλος" is clearly an epithet or plays the role of one since the actual word that we are looking for as a substantive is the word "ἑταῖρος" which stands for "companion" or "comrade" (a term used generally throughout the poems to indicate bonds in army or of friendship or even husband and wife at some cases). In here it clearly means "beloved" by the general text for the word "φίλος" is not used as a substantive. Other cases such as this appear in other parts of the poem even with the fullest form φίλτατος which means "the most beloved"
However it needs to be noted that the term φίλος as the essence of "friend" comes directly from this term "to love" which means someone "you are close with" someone "of your own kin" someone "dear to you". The ancient greeks do not seem to be making a distinction between love as in lovers and love as in family or relatives when using this verb and the words coming from it (one good example is Thetis referring to Achilles as "φίλον υἱὸν" which means "beloved son" and here has no romantic implications at all).
The term is being used interchangably throughout Homer to speak about characters with close relations of kinship that are not linked to romantic essences at all. For example the way Menelaus adresses Odysseus as such in the Odyssey:
Oh, how strange! That has come to my house the son of a man much beloved to me; who for my sake has suffered so many ordeals!
(Translation by me)
In here Menelaus again is usingthe term φίλος but he doesn't speak out of romantic intentions at all. He speaks with the warmest words but in here it is the most intimate form of friendship and kinship and is followed by the implication of gratefulness, how he adds up how Odysseus suffered "for his sake" aka to fight the war and be lost afterwards. And before someone says "it is not the same amount of warmth" one must think again because before Menelaus speaks about how because of the agony he feels for his friend he does not eat or sleep properly and given that it has been 10 years already since the last time they saw each other that is a damn long time.
But all of them I do not grieve as much, even if I mourn for them, as much as I do for one man, because of which I both detest sleep and neglect to eat, for there is no one of the Achaeans that suffered more than what Odysseus suffered and endured
(Translation by me)
So not only Menelaus feels like Odysseus suffered the most out of them (and strictly speaking one can look at fates of other heroes like Diomedes to see they are not far behind in suffering) but that the way he constantly wonders about his well-being makes him unable to sleep or eat and that seems to be happening for years and years which shows the true depth of their friendship.
So no, strictly speaking the word "to love" is not used by the greeks to imply only romantic love and it can be used pretty intimately even if it is not referring to romance. And the difference can be perceived by the same writer as well not just some play that was written several centuries later in which, inevitably, we could talk about some alterations of meaning to the words over the course of time
However there seems to be another phrase used to express intense feelings of love which is κεχαρισμένε θυμῷ which means "dear to my heart" and in Iliad ironically that phrase is spoken by no other than Briseis herself!
Oh, Patruclus! Dearest to my wretched heart!
(Translation by me)
This interesting shout of love coming from Briseis is also interesting for it could be implying both emotions of romantic love but also of affection in general. Which is another phrase that researchers have looked upon in search for hidden meanings of romance but once again it was often used either as such or with the term "φίλος" instead to speak of relationships of family or kinship. But grieving scenes such as the one of Briseis might also be indicator of romance although not exclusively referring to that.
The Lament
Quite frankly speaking, Achilles's lament is one of the most infamous and well-known in greek literature exactly because of its explicit nature. We do see characters lament in plays before but it is not as frequent to see lament SO strong coming from a male character and so openly (see for example in the Odyssey how Odysseus tries to hide his own tears many times or how his men are wrapped up in veils in lament for their own lives and their fallen comrades' but by n large the male lament is more subtle, more silent). Achilles is different. For example when he is first told about the news of Patroclus's death the result is nothing less but the ultimate emotional collapse:
So they spoke and black mist of distress covered him: With both his hands he gathered smoky sand and he poured it over his head and disfigured his face: his nectarous chiton turned black with ashes. And he himself dropped in the dirt and stretched over his lying (here: the corpse) friend/beloved pulling out his hair in lament. The slaves given as war price to Achilles and Patroclus, released a great cry of sadness and they approached all to the sides of mourning Achilles, beating their chests with their hands, and their knees each. Also Antilochus with them was lamenting and pouring tears holding the hands of Achilles: for he was moaning with his noble heart: worried that he would cut his throat with iron (here: a knife).
(Translation by me)
There is no words to express such an intense display of pain given by Achilles from second one when he receives the news of the death of Patroclus. He immediately pours ash over his head (quite a common trope for mourning done by many characters before.) and "disfiguring his face" which means he was digging his nails down his cheeks which was again a trope of mourning in greek literature. The intensity of his lament is so great that Antilochus feels the need to hold his hands just in case he would want to comit suicide in his pain!
Ironically for most part in this lament does it mention that Achilles was making any sound at all during the process, which somehow makes it even more disturbing to think that Achilles simply drops to his knees, covers himself in ashes and scratches his cheeks while lamenting over the body of Patroclus hardly making any sound at all. It is the slave women who arrive later that release the cries that undoubtedly are within the soul of Achilles. Somehow his lament is extreme and yet no audible hint exists for most part of the text EXCEPT the final one where it says "moaning with his noble heart". It almost seems that his body does most of the talking till the women arrive and cry out like he so much wants to and then his mouth also makes sounds. It is not a scream; it is a moan. It is possible of course that the clip refers to Achilles constantly moaning but I do like this as a possible food for thought that if Achilles was firstly responding to pain with his actions and then with his voice and in a way the moment he actually made a sound was the moment Antilochus truly began to worry!
There is a certain theatricality to this scene of lament and drama which of course as many analytics before me would say, it seems to be hinting to some other infamous laments of mythological characters and more specific the laments of Apollo. Apollo is one of those figures for whom we have no doubt he was lamenting his lovers and some classical examples are Hyakinthus and Cyparissus both of them transformed into a flower and a tree respectably. The associations of Achilles and the grieving god seem to be more than just a possibility here. Which of course enforces even further the idea of them being lovers. It is also the amount of time that Achilles mourns plus the intense way that he refuses to let go of the body of Patroclus to which he seems to be holding on from the 18th rhapsody when he first finds out of his death till the moment that she arrived with his armor one rhapsody later. Quite a gruesome scene is when she enters the tent and finds Achilles crying while clasping Patroclus onto him:
And she found her dearest son still lay there, clasping Patroclus and crying woefully and his comrades around him mourning
(Translation by me)
And at this point Thetis hasn't yet given nectar and ambrosia to the body of Patroclus to prevent the sepsis from happening, which happens a few lyrics later. So Achilles was holding the dead body for the entire day even after it was cleaned and prepared showing the intense pain Achilles was expressing and going through. And he seems unwilling to part from him till Patroclus's spirit itself arrives in his sleep and requests a burial so he can rest.
Of course it needs to be noted that intense lament is not exlusive to lovers in greek mythology. To name a few Athena grieves intensely the loss of her friend Pallas and by some accounts she does take her name as her epithet post-mortem. Antigone intensely mourns her dead brother and laments his disgrace when she finds that the ritual burial she performed had been disturbed. And the acting of killing oneself out of sorrow again is not strictly remaining to the love affairs. For example Ismene killing herself after learning the deaths of her family members in general and Antigone in particular. Another most prominient example is king Aegeus who throws himself into the sea when he sees the black sails of the ship coming from Crete, thinking his son was dead.
So the exessive expression of grief are not just dedicated to lovers or husbands and wives in greek literature but rather it is expanded to all people who mourn someone dear to them regardless of the nature of the bond between them. In the case of Achilles of course he does seem to be having a specially strong mental breakdown every time some important person in his life that is said to be romantically involved with him dies or is taken from him starting with Briseis for whom he expresses his emotions many times in the Iliad and she is the first reason of his anger, of course Patroclus and Penthesilea for whom he apparently has feelings for a few monets after he sees her face after she dies. In Posthomerica it is even said that his lamentover her dead body is "the same as the one over Patroclus" and of course Antilochus later according to the Epic Cycle when he died protecting his father, caused another explosion of anger to Achilles which was fated to be his last one.
It is possible since his love is clearly stated in the cases of Briseis and Penthesilea that the same can have occured for Antilochus and of course Patroclus which was the most heartbreaking of them all and for good reason. In fact the case of Patroclus seems to be that he plays every role in the life of Achilles. He is his friend, his companion, his squire, his advisor so why not his lover too.
The Same Urn
Now of course where people surely think they have a clear case of romantic bond seems to be the request of Patroclus to be burnt but his bones to be kept in the same urn that is to be used for Achilles as well. The passage happens in the 23rd rhapsody:
And one more thing I ask for you to excecute; do not place my bones apart from yours, Achilles, but together just like we were raised in your chambers, when I was brought to your land by Menetoios as a little boy from Opois because of the grievous manslaughter, for when I was a child I was foolish and killed the son of Amphidamas without wanting to, for I was mad over a game of dice: there I was accepted to the chambers of the horseman of Peleus who kindly took care of me and named me your squire. And the same way I want for my bones to be together with yours in the same golden box, the one your divine mother prepared for you.
(Translation by me)
So apart from the fact that it is a highly emotional scene, seeing your dead companion arriving at you and begging to be let go (this is literally Patroclus saying "Let me go, Achilles...just let me go" for Achilles literally refuses to give up his body not even for a burial) it is also the scene that seems to be winking to the fans of the idea of them being lovers as a proof that they are together. And quite frankly I can absolutely see why and it would be foolish to ignore this possibility especially given how tenderly Achilles calls him "my beloved" (or "as loved as my own life") after the whole request is done from the spirit of Patroclus which is more than clear indication for many accounts and that makes perfect sense.
The custom of co-burial was known in Greece from the earliest times of its civilization till the end (because quite honestly I am not sure the custom will stop existing in Greece since despite the lack of cremations, we still have the custom of common graves even if it is only for those who can afford have a family monument). We often find urns contain bones of multiple individuals and yes more often whatnot they are maritable partners and the obsession of words that mean "together" in this passage such as; "μή (...) ἀπάνευθε" (not apart), "ὁμοῦ" (at the same place, together) or "ἀμφικαλύπτω" (cover each other) seems to be pointing to the direction of a romantic relationship and it won't be the only time someone is co-relating the mingling of ashes and bones with "marriage" (and example is The Hunchback of Notre Dame, where Victor Hugo describes the way Quasimodo and Esmeralda's skeletons turn into inseparable dust as "Quasimodo's Marriage")
However on the counter-talk, co-burials were also common among family members (which is exactly what Achilles and Patroclus are). Ironically from the excavations to Mycenae several co-burials were discovered that were not related by blood but they were theorized to be connected to some relations of adoption (which again seems to fit the case of Achilles and Patroclus from the time Patroclus was brought in and ellegedly adopted by Peleus)
I am also convinced that the fact Patroclus gives us some good portion of his background story here was not just a random thing. It seems that Patroclus places emphasis on why he wants to be in the same urn as Achilles; because they were raised together, they were together all their lives and he wants them to be together in death as well. It absolutely could be a romantic insinuation on Patroclus's part however it seems equally possible that the background story serves as a lever to make the public understand how the two of them were raised together and wished to remain together. It almost feels like Homoer wants either to stimulate the idea that the past is an extra point towards their romantic relationship or yet another point of the closeness of their kinship or both (to me it seems the latter)
However another factor to this urn seems to be Antilochus. Antilochus who was close to the age of Achilles, the one who was in charge to bring the news of Patroclus's death to Achilles and the one that we saw consoling him and trying to prevent him from doing something foolish seems to be added to this circle. In fact in some future sources he is featured as the reason Achilles died, for he was driven in yet another furious attack against the Trojans, forcing them to fall back when he saw him fall dead protecting his father from the Ethiopian king Memnon. In some accounts, even possibly Homer included, is insinuated that Antilochus was also included in the funerary urn with Achilles and Patroclus although in the Odyssey it is clearly stated that his bones are not in it:
Your mother gave me this golden amphora (here an urn with two handles); a gift from Dionysus she said to me, made by the renounced Hephestus, in which lie your white bones, radiant Achilles, mixed with the ones of dead Patroclus son of Menoetius, but without Antilochus, whom he honored above all his comrades after Patroclus died.
(Translation by me)
So in the Odyssey it doesn't seem like they were indeed in the same urn (unless somehow Nestor could tell the bones apart and took them out? hehe) but they all thee of them are joined in one tomb and worshipped as heroes. So in a way Antilochus seems to join them just not in the same box. However the three of them are indeed seen together in the underworld as one trio literally. They are apparently joined after death according to what Odysseus saw in the underworld.
Once again seems like the romantic as well as the kinship theories could be true interchangably or even at the same time.
Ancient Greeks on their relationship:
As I mentioned above many ancient writers and not just the infamous "historians" everyone mocks on the internet, seem to have placed their own guesses and opinions on the relationships of the two heroes.
Aeschines seems to be contemplating the idea they are lovers (aka he says that Homer "hides their love") and he even reads Patroclus's story as "an intercourse they had once". He names their relationship έρως aka romantic love (eros). Aristotle in Nicomachian Ethics and Rethoric he uses the term "comrade" to talk of them, choosing to focus more on their friendship. His teacher Plato though was a different story. He was convinced that they were not only lovers but he had also figured their roles in their relationship as presented in his Symposium, naming Patroclus as ἐραστής aka "the one who gives love" and mentions how Achilles is in love with Patroclus. Plato remains one of the most...great "shippers" of the two having no doubt about their love affair. To the other end is Xenophon who is adamant that they are not lovers, in his own Symposium. A large number of greek writers seem also to comment on both possibilities, it seems to me quite interesting how many different readings the homeric poems provide.
More mordern readings:
While it is true that there is a certain confusion to the public since a large number of texts either were deliberately modified or genuinely mistranslated (given again how terms like φιλώ means "to love" in general in ancient greek and not just romantically or that the term ερώ does mean "to love as a lover" in some contexts but it also means "to desire very much" and it was used in various of contexts) and these double-meanings were taken advantage of to translate the texts differently and that is because when someone in modern times says "my beloved" by n large they refer to a lover which was something that was greatly hushed up in public
Of course as we stated above for ancient greece that was not the case since the term "beloved" could be used in various contexts and it showed intense emotions of kinship between two people regardless of the nature of their relationship.
However in some accounts the obsession upon trying not to show intense potentual homoerotic material made many of these translations unreliable. There were exceptions to the rule of course but the real breakthrough wouldn't really happen till later in the 19th century where we also have more samples of printed work. Translations like Butler at the end of 19th century are far reliable to the text and seem to follow the spirit of Homer. Quite frankly there was already a breakthrough to homoerotic material thanks to not only the neo-classisim but also gothic literature such as the vampire novelle Carmilla so many writers became more bold into translating the tender words of love as they were and leave the public decide upon their nature.
However this effort to hush up the tender words spoken in Homer out of fear that they might be interpreted as homoerotic created of course this modern uprage in which we have the other way round; that people are afraid to talk about friendhsip and kinship because they will be hushed up by the readings of the text as homoerotic
(see my other post for this)
This, in my opinion simply removes all the abive context; that love can be expressed between family members or friends or people who have been through a lot. Quite frankly as you can see not only I am not denying their energy as lovers, I like to believe I am also supporting this theory a lot because there is a lot of possibility in it just like there is on the direction of tenderness and affection. I do think today people are afraid to speak up on the other side exactly bcause nowadays the most famous way to see them is as lovers as opposed to the previous periods that did the other way round
Conclusions:
I have no doubts that Homer, even though not clearly speaking about it (for example referring to sexual acts) he seems to be insinuating that the two of them were sharing romantic bond or feelings for each other
(it needs to be noted that it is not entirely clear that if there WERE romantic feelings that they were confessed or known by both parties, which could potentially mean the two of them loved each other romantically but did not fulfill their love which could be another tragic note to their story)
Homer seems to be sending several hints to his viewers/readers that one could interpret them as lovers given the tender dictionary they use between each other and for each other, allowing his...fans to decide for themselves. It is also highly possible that he too saw them as star-crossed lovers, for he gives them all the elements of various other stories that involve homoerotic romance, even the tragic end to their story.
However I am equally sure that he also wanted to say that their friendship was of equal importance. There is no doubt that Homer considered them close friends (for he gives us a small hint of their backstory, how they grew together) and their story is being projected like many other duos and characters in the Trojan war that are linked together with bonds of kinship and companionship; stories that flourish at war. He might not straight out tell us that they are the case of story "from friends to lovers" but he absolutely seems to be letting us know that their kinship is there!
And I am grateful to Homer for his writing because it seems to me he wanted both sides to equally enjoy the story; whether they are those who do think their closeness is romance and those who think it is close kinship, strong family bonds or friendship. I am almost convinced that Homer deliberately used that as a way to please both sides of the audience or to give a more tragic aftertaste to their story since closeness is much more impactful to the face of separation.
I like them both and in fact I support them simoultaneously for honestly there is no best lover than your best friend; someone you can trust with everything you have. If I had to support one form of love, this would be it but at the same time I do support the idea that friendship is already a powerful bond of two people and that romantic love in this case would come as a bonus. Somehow Homer does seem to entertain this idea in his writing given again the extreme tenderness and the tragedy of these two while at the same time leaving the door open for his audience to speculate, make interpretations and enjoy the story in their own perspective.
If that is not art I dunno what is.
Okay guys this is only but scrapping the surface of this relationship that lasted for 3000 years now! Hahaha but I hope you like this! It took me several hours to synthesize but I hope you like it.
#greek mythology#the odyssey#odysseus#tagamemnon#odyssey#patrochilles#achilles#patroclus#antilochus#iliad#the iliad#katerinaaqu analyzes#trojan war#troy´s aftermath#sacking of troy#homer iliad#homeric poems#homer odyssey#homer odysseus#homeric epics#just a homeric poem writer and enthusiast#homeric poems inspirations#thetis#briseis#greek myths#greek myth#epic cycle#friendship#menelaus
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