#babygate discussion

[skepticalarrie]

that last ask got me thinking. do you know the story behind this? from what i’ve heard over the years was that there was a video, but it got quickly deleted off the internet everywhere and there’s only gifs of it left. now idk how true that is lol.

https://pin.it/1S5b0Qr

I absolutely remember seeing a better version of this video at some point. But this is very old, maybe between 2010 or early 2011. It sucks because we’re reaching a mark of 13 years in this fandom and some things are proper getting old and slipping away from our memories for good. From what I remember, this was behind the scenes of some concert or interview and Liam is the one closing the door, he opened it to talk to fans and they were filming and that’s why they got it on camera. But I don’t remember anything further about the context or where to find the full video 🫠

But most things that are rumoured of being deleted from the internet for no reason when it comes to Larry are not true.

[twopoppies]

The only good thing about bg stunts is new larries suddenly have access to this information they didn’t (maybe) know to seek out before hand. Like you and the other big blogs are so through with the receipts that seeing it laid out like that you CANT think louis is a dad. so if someone claims to be a larrie but didn’t bother to read the easily accessible information then you know they just want to complain. Even for me who’s been here since 2011 and remembers 2015/2016 it’s shocking to remember everything that happened

Yeah. That’s the dumbest part about dredging it up again and again. All the old info starts being recycled. And I agree with you — even having lived through the beginning of it, I sometimes forget some of the little details that all add up to one giant ball of stupid.

[dreamings-free]

Your thoughts about Louis having agency in his marketing are interesting considering half of y’all think his management somehow forced him to parade a fake baby doll that is now actually his fake mom’s stepdad’s kid

ah the good old "y’all think".. really? come on.. since you seem to have been following what’s been said about louis’ team and the fift campaign recently you should know that the "y’all" you’re lumping all larries into actually have vastly different views on exactly louis’ agency and power over his own career.

to me it’s pretty evident that Louis’ situation now is not at all the same as it was back in 2015-16 in terms of who controls his career and his image. he has a different team, one that he himself chose. I know there are plenty of people (mostly r*ds but apparently also many larries) who think his current management and label still have the power over him and are somehow controlling/restricting his career. I don’t believe that.

neither do I believe his current team are forcing him to portrait himself as a father.

I’m not getting into a rehashing of babygate and how because of what happened in 2015-17 (and what didn’t happen in 2018-2020) you will never convince me that child is L’s. been there done that. but funny you should mention the parading of first a doll (and then a real child). because exactly that series of mall pap walks is one of the many (many!) reasons why I will forever think it is all fake and staged. what normal person does that with a newborn let alone a person of L’s fame if not to sell a story. and why if it was real would he need or want to ? (ask yourself that. don’t bother coming back with arguments I know what i think)

[vole-mon-amour]

"y'all were so wrong about Larry" were we, though? were we?

[sadaveniren]

I'm glad that this stunt doesn't bother you but everyone is different and it is super frustrating to basically be told 'get over it' every time stunt content comes to the forefront. Why can't we just accept that this doesn't phase some people and for others, it phases them a lot and just let both parties be.

Also, I would argue that the nature of babygate makes being appalled and disgusted by it a completely reasonable take. Personally, I don't find it to be in the same vein as other things that can easily be brushed off.

I mean if you took me saying “look into Radical Acceptance” as saying “get over it” I’m going to assume either you have shit reading comprehension or you didn’t go look what radical acceptance was. And reducing a very difficult but important skill down to “get over it” is doing no one any favors. Because for the record … “Radical Acceptance” is a literal DBT skill. It’s so much more than “get over it”

I’m gonna be very real with you - and everyone in fandom. The stunts should not bother you to a point of distress because the stunts do not involve you. If they do you need to step away. This has always been the fandom mantra. What any celebrity does in their personal life should never affect a fan that deeply. That mentality - of being so attached to celebrities that it affects your day to day mood - is partially what people are talking about when they discuss parasocial relationships.

Please note. I am not telling anyone to “get over it”. I’m not even telling anyone to not have any emotional response. But you gotta be proportional. And THATS what I was addressing when I said looking into radical acceptance.

A final note: yes bg is a unique situation to other stunts but at the end of the day it’s still just a stunt. It still does not affect us the fans. We are not going to impact babygate at all. Not our distress, not our disgust, not our attempts at boycotting. We have no power here. And that’s why I personally believe anyone who is that distressed by bg truly needs to look into something like Radical Acceptance.

[thisiskatsblog]

Copy pasta is passing that old list of all larries bloggers. There are more than 50 people in the group and they started with about 20. They see that it is working. That popular larries and louies bloggers have deleted or closed their asks box and refuse any discussion. There are only two discussion blogs answering new larries right now and copy pasta bully them and send fake asks all the time. They won't stop until they force all the larries bloggers on that list to go silent or delete.

To be fair, I think it’s not only the bullying that makes some people leave. Babygate and Harry’s stunts are equally disencouraging for those who were here back in the days when they were fighting the closet and it seemed like there may be a point when they’d come out and we’d feel vindicated. At the time that distant hope would have made it easier to deal with the bullies.

Right now it seems like it is no longer Harry’s or Louis’ wish to come out any time soon, there are far fewer signs also of their sexuality and/or relationship if it’s still alive, and so the certainty you have as a someone who believes they are/were together is that you will not be proven right any time soon.

And to be clear: it doesn’t even matter if you are solidly of the conviction that it is Harry and Louis’ right to come out whenever they want, if they even want to. I mean, it matters what you think, and that them having the right to choose whether and when to come out is the only ethical position in this.

But even when that is your position and you can accept it, the current situation where there is “no end in sight” is really not going to encourage you to be louder or to fight harder against the bullies.

At some point you’re going to say, well they get to choose whether and when to come out, and I can choose to leave and not deal with this shit because they aren’t going to bail us out of this shit any time soon by the looks of it.

And that’s a choice Harry and Louis are making. They needed us then and used the power of the “rebellion”. And now they are in a different place, they do not need us anymore, and they are choosing to watch us leave one by one.

It’s the reality. I am not happy with it, I would have wanted it to be different for myself, for my friends, for all the LGBTQ people in this fandom I wish it was different. But I can accept that this is their life and their choice and so I will accept the negative consequences that choice has for me.

I know I was right about certain things, I know what I am worth and I know I can leave any time I want. And I choose to stay - or watch it all from a bit of distance more like. Check in once in a while to see if the rainbows have survived, if LGBTQ kids are feeling alright here.

[awesomefringey]

I'm a twitter larrie, although not a twarrie, even though I'm a recent member of the fandom (around 1.5 years in).

But I agree, twitter timeline is getting really toxic around these days, especially if people don't follow the right people, or they check the "for you" part. I do think it's very important to mute or block people who we think constantly provide into the chaos on twitter, otherwise it's really easy to get surrounded with toxic people or crazy theories, even if those people are larries.

To be honest lately I almost spend no time on the timeline, I'm a member of some really nice groupchats, and I even met some people from there personally on shows. I'm not saying we agree on everything, but the major points (Larry, L not a dad) are not questioned there.

Unfortunately new larries (regardless if they're on twitter, tiktok or even here) don't do any research, they just love the theory of Larry (I think they're more Larry shippers than real larries), and eat up everything they're presented to. And one of the most complex thing to understand is bbg, and it seems they're not willing to dive into it.

And tbh I could understand why. If there's a twitter larrie with a really good and detailed thread of bbg, but their next thread is about L watching the sunset in an adidas hoodie means the day before yesterday he was together with H, which is an utter nonsense, people tend to think the bbg thread was nonsense too. And unfortunately it happens a lot.

I spend most of my larrie time on twitter, because that's where I have my lovely groupchats, and I also post some stuff regularly, but if I need to factcheck anything, I always come to tumblr.

Hi nonnie, thank you for chiming in. I hate to add to the fandom division, so your perspective is so very welcome and shows there are like-minded people on every app who don’t want to participate in berating and fighting each other.

You made some very good points there about Larries being shippers for the cute idea of it but also feeling too uncomfortable reading up on babygate.

To be fair, I would very much love for us all to settle the battles about this kid and NEVER speak about him again. Let’s agree to disagree and move forward NOT ever discussing Louis’ questionable fatherhood, Briana’s questionable pregnancy, Freddie’s questionable name and upbringing ever again.

But I don’t think that will people stop from trying to make a child a celebrity, stalking his whereabouts, making fan accounts for a little boy (and have Stanley Tucci follow them). Because those who are so rEspECtFuL accepting Freddie as Louis’ son are out there memefying a minor and use him to quench their thirst for super dad Louis content. And honestly that’s just a problematic.

[27goldensun]

My thoughts on AOTV (Part 1 - Babygate)

I am dividing my thoughts on the film otherwise the post would be to long and confusing

I think that most people have now watched or heard about the scenes with Freddie so I will avoid describing them and will give my opinions

1. Putting shoes and jacket

The first time Freddie appears in the doc starts with Louis helping him put on his jacket and shoes.

That to me was super funny actually because my experience with the young kids in my family is that they absolutely hate getting help when getting dressed, they always want to be independent LOL

Freddie didn’t seem exactly comfortable in this part, and Louis’ apartment didn’t look like he spend too much time there nor that a kid lived there for some time

2. Walking the same way with stuff swinging

As they leave the building Freddie is carrying his Switch and sort of swinging it. Louis, who was previously not carrying anything, gets some sort of plastic bag, looks at Freddie and literally mirrors his pose

This had everyone swooning in the theater because “they look just the same” (it was so forced I laughed and had to cough to cover it up LOL)

3. The beach scene

This has been discussed in detail, but I just though it was funny how Oli was there the entire time (in the flat also) and how Freddie kept looking at the camera

They actually play rock paper scissors out of the blue?! I told my dad that and he laughed so much, it just isn’t something we’d ever do and my goddaughter would laugh at me if I suggested this game

4. The LA show scenes

Again, this scenes have been discussed by everyone, so I’m just adding my two cents.

Freddie doesn’t initiate any contact with Louis, the one part he seems excited is when he describes jumping with his sign and when he is playing with Jackson (Harry’s godson)

Louis is very tactile with Freddie and appears to treat him like “one of the lads”, just generally roughhousing the kid (like, he actually poked Freddie’s eyes) which didn’t really align with what Louis’ sisters described him as (very protective and all) but could be just how I perceive (although if we compare it to say, Louis with baby Lux, it just very different)

He doesn’t leave with Freddie and tells him to be good on his way home

Louis gets emotional when seeing Freddie in the audience and drops some line of “there where 6k people but I only had eyes for you”

A part that I think was really funny was when he pointed at F, because if you watched the live for this show you’ll remember he pointed once, talked to Charlie and probably realized the video wasn’t good than pointed again to make sure it was filmed (very organic)

Not once does Freddie call him dad, but “his” sign says “go dad”

They did record Freddie singing Two of Us and he kept checking the camera during it

5. The grandfather

Louis grandpa talks about how they are “literal copies of each other”

This part was professionally filmed and during the same day they talk about Jay and how hard her loss impacted louis

During the sections that seem to be home videos, Freddie isn’t really mentioned

6. My general thoughts

They once more reinforced the “carbon copy” narrative, which is really funny when knowing how much like Bret the kid looks

I realized that, while they tried to make it clear that while Louis does see the kid, he doesn’t have any type of custody (talking about F going home and the apartment not looking very child-inhabited)

Do I think that Freddie knows louis or spends more time with him than we know of? Not actually, he seemed to know who Louis is, obviously, but didn’t have any greater familiarity like you’d expect, and seemed to lean away from Louis at times

Not once were Louis and Freddie alone (even just them and the cameras), so Oli is as much a father to him as Louis

The bbg parts really do feel like an attempt at gaslighting the fandom, so I wasn’t happy about them, but let me know what you all thought of it please (also please forgive any mistakes, I’m still a bit sleepy LOL)

I’m finishing up a timeline regarding louis bs of spending “3 weeks or a month” with the kid, since he would have had to mastered the ability to be in two places at once (you don’t really get to lie about where you have been when not only your location but the child’s has been plastered all over the internet daily)

[alarrytale]

So that basically means that you are willing to turn your own brain off and pretend larry isn't real anymore, because some people believe differently than you? People are more concerned about their own reputation and avoiding ridicule from outside this fandom, than sticking to their own convictions? Wow...

I think you misunderstood me. Those people are still Larries, but they are not vocal about it. They keep it in group chats and don’t support public.

I’ve seen a lot of people trying to “discuss” with those more extreme Larries, but even when things gets debunked or was debunked even before they entered the fandom, they refuse to accept that and keep their self-invented theories going. At some point you don’t want to take the discussion anymore and then it’s Easter to just be quiet about your support of L and H.

Hi, anon!

....and then it's Easter! 🐣 (Sorry but that autocorrect was funny).

Okay, but that other anon said that larries are leaving over this particular fraction of larries and turning neutrals. So are they not believing in larry anymore or are they still larries, but tired of arguing with the extremists?

If the extremist theories are already debunked, and only believed still by a small fraction of fans, why not just ignore them and mute them, and go about your day being a larrie? Why let these extremist views and beliefs run you out of fandom and quiet your own voice? I promise, there are more people who share your views than not. No need to take it to the group chat. By doing that the extremist voices aren’t being contested and debunked anymore. That's not good.

Repeat after me; I'm a larrie, i believe H and L are head over heels in love, but i do not believe they are signalling to us larries that babygate is ending by making poor Lucky puke. There are better, easier, more sanitary and humane ways of letting us larries know it's finally ending. Also, matcha tea tends to be green like the sky tends to be blue. The end.

Yes, it's easier to be quiet in your support of H and L, but it isn't half as fun. Fandom becomes boring. I tend to like the LArRy Is ReEAl, MOtherFuckerS!!!! fans the best. I also think the extremist fans provide a form of entertainment, but maybe that's just me. I don't take anything they say seriously, and i don't think any of it is harmful for the most part, and i eagerly await their daily nonsense. If these people didn't exist we wouldn't have known Lucky's puke held so much importance and never gotten the hilarity that is the Calder triplets.

[fadeintolight]

hey, so first i want to say thanks for replying and putting so much thought into your answer. that was really cool. and second, thanks for not immediately getting defensive or touchy. you never know how ppl will react when you send an ask in this fandom lmao. also what you said really did clear things up for me and made a lot of sense. particularly the bit about the unknowing and uncertainty of the details protecting louis' character. and that ppl's brains just can't go there. i think because i'd been disappointed in louis for a while and for other things besides bg that it was easier for me to arrive at that conclusion. and now that my brain's entertained the idea that louis thinks pushing babygate is the only way he'll hold onto his career and is putting that above all else, i can't see it any other way. but also i really like the way you explained and acknowledged that we're all just creating our own narratives, warping realities and holding onto certain preferences. and no one really knows anything substantial at the end of the day. now whenever i see an opinion that annoys me on tumblr i'll just be like 'they're just making up a little story' lol and it will make moving on easier. idk, i just found that take refreshing. anyway, thanks again.

thanks for being normal too haha!

i really do enjoy a discussion around this every now and then, especially since i’ve come to the conclusion that we truly don’t know shit and should just believe whatever eases our minds. i’m not getting paid to protect any celebrity's ass on main, so i don’t want to waste energy on that anymore. i’d rather just stick to the beliefs that selfishly let me keep enjoying what’s given to me, whether it’s their music or the parts of their lives they share (or step back when they’re acting up)✌️

[caralara]

Chicago - a close reading & interpretation

This is my very personal interpretation of Chicago, content warning: babygate, Douis & stunting. Here you can find all my other close readings & interpretations of Faith In The Future I’ve written so far.

Close reading of the lyrics:

I saw you had a baby

Interestingly Louis starts the song with a line about a baby - after we speculated from the beginning this song might be connected to babygate. He is talking to someone he used to know quite well and spent time with, but now only “saw” that they went through a major life event, and therefore are not close anymore. 

Did you use any of the names we liked?

The person Louis is singing to was someone Louis felt comfortable enough with to discuss names for hypothetical children. What seems odd is that he assumes they would consider using one of the names the two of them came up with for their current relationship’s baby - not necessarily something you would do if Louis is an ex-partner in the romantic sense in this scenario.

And is your brother doing ok? Is he still getting out of fights?

He is bringing in more information to identify the person he is singing about, the person has a brother, which Louis witnessed not only getting into but also out of a lot of fights. He also cares about the brother, asking about how he is doing - it seems Louis has spent some time with him as well.

I’m sorry that your mum don’t like me, I’m sorry that I brought that on myself

He is saying that the person’s mum not only didn’t like him in the past, but still does to this day, and more importantly, that he brought this on himself. Was he simply rude to her? Or did he do something more profound that made her dislike him to this day ? He seems to be sorry about that. Does this mean he sort of understands why she dislikes him? That he is still doing what the mother disliked him for? That he feels sorry that he is doing that?

They say bitter ends turn sweet in time 

Another End mention here, hmmm. He is saying he and potentially the other people involved in this, like “you,” were bitter about it ending back then. Why would both be bitter about this? Is the bitterness stemming from frustration? And then he tacks on, that eventually, the bitterness turns sweet, very importantly, with time. Is he saying that because time goes on, the bitterness will fade? Or does something need to change, shift for the bitterness to turn sweet?

Is that true of yours and mine?

He is asking the person, if this also applies to their situation, if the person is feeling the same way about it how he feels now.

Cos if you’re lonely in Chicago, you can call me baby

And then he goes and reaches out to them - respectfully - and putting the ball in their court, stating he’d be okay if they called him up again, to meet up, talk? If they’re lonely? He just said they just had a baby, wouldn’t one assume they don’t really feel lonely at the moment, romance wise? They either are in a committed relationship with the other parent of the baby, and/or have the baby on their mind, not really booty calling their ex? He is specifying they’re in Chicago, and because Louis obviously isn’t always in Chicago, supplying another identifier to who this person might be. He calls them “baby” at the end of the line, a term of affection: he feels positively about them, still, to this day.

Has it been long enough that you can forgive me?

Another identifier, as to when this happened - long enough ago that he considers it possible for the person to have gotten over it. Probably more than a year, but from the tone of it, it is more likely several years - they had a relationship become this serious that they had a baby in the meantime. In the same breath, he is asking for forgiveness - did they blame him for the situation? Did they regret the situation back then?

Just because it didn’t work doesn’t mean it’s meaningless to me

Now he is saying that “it” didn’t work - what is it? The relationship? Or the situation they found themselves in? He says that no matter what - being with this person during that time is far from meaningless to him. He is expressing, that even though it might have gone wrong, overall he still appreciates them and the time spent together.

It just wasn’t meant to be

This sentence is basically “it is what it is” in a different font - now, looking back, he gave up on questioning why it didn’t work out, but accepted it as out of his control.

Have you seen how my life’s been going?

Now he is asking the person if they’ve been keeping up with what he’s been doing. Did they follow his career, and his choices, and the tabloids talking about him? Is he asking if they have seen he’s now suddenly talking a lot about his son, another baby in the mix?

Cos i’ve been wondering what you’d say

Apparantly, this person’s opinion seems to be important to him, especially in regards to his actions in recent times. Is he drawing parallels from back then to now? Back then, the person was involved, and now, Louis deems them to be qualified to make a judgement of the current events.

Would you have told me to keep going, or would you say to walk away?

So this seems to be a hypothetical question about a time between them parting ways and now - it is a little bit in the past. Speculating, it could be about the beginning of the “recent” years he’s asked them about just before. He seems to value their opinion, and missed their advice. It seems he stood in front of a decision, either to go through with something hard, or to leave it all be and walk away.

You always made me feel much better, and I’ll always be grateful for that

Back then, this person gave Louis some relief in the situation, helping him get through it and feel better, and to this and into the future he will be grateful for that. So even though they were going through something tough, this person offered comfort to Louis.

I didn’t have to search cos I still know your number

he isn’t even saying that he still has their number saved, but that he still knows their number - did he call them so often during that time that he would know it by heart? Is it a certificate of how much they talked, and how close they really were?

I bet that you didn’t think that I’d remember

Now he is guessing that they didn’t think he would remember (the number? them?) - maybe he is expressing that he thinks that it seems like they think he doesn’t like them - maybe he is trying to say “look, I know you think I dislike you or don’t want to think about you because I connect this difficult time with you, but I do - you were important to me, and no, i don’t dislike you, and no, I am not disinterested in you.”

It just wasn’t meant to be, no, it just wasn’t meant to be, it just wasn’t meant to be

Then he repeats that it simply wasn’t meant to be - their relationship or what they were going through for - over and over again, almost like a mantra, like something he had to make himself believe, a state of mind, just like “it is what it is” is.

I didn’t have to search cos i still know your number, I bet sometimes you still like to wear my jumper

contrary to the one before this one, where he guesses they think he might dislike them, here now he is expressing he thinks they still like Louis, or at least have a soft spot for him - and even mentions clothes sharing, they are wearing his jumper - where do we know this from? Stunting in the 1D-Universe always includes wearing each other’s clothes, because it’s, as always, a cheap copy of the real thing: the boys all sharing their clothes from the very start. Is this a nod, a hint, to connect this to stunting? 

Just because it didn’t work, doesn’t mean it’s meaningless to me, it just wasn’t meant to be

 He ends on the repetition of “it didn’t work but it still meant something to me, it is what it is” which is summing up the situation he’s finding himself in now: looking back at the situation, having made his peace with what went wrong, and telling the other involved person that he still cares about them, and that he appreciates them for being there for him back in the day.

Personal interpretation:

Let’s start with the title: Chicago. What comes to mind in connection to Louis? Yes, that very wild and weird time at the end of 2015, where suddenly, amidst all the baby and engagement rumours to Briana, Louis suddenly went public with a steady girlfriend: Danielle Campbell. And because Danielle Campbell is from Chicago, and her family lives there, Louis spent a lot of time there between end of 2015 and end of 2016. He also got the infamous bum tattoo there with Danielle’s brother on a night out, as well as the 28 knuckle tattoos. People in the fandom often are scared to look into the Douis relationship, because - in contrast to Elounor - they actually seemed quite comfortable with each other. Danielle was, in my opinion, the only beard / PR girlfriend Louis chose himself. There were rumours about him holding “auditions” with at least Alycia Debnam-Carey and Danielle Campbell. Speculations are that Louis installed her as a safety net to not get dragged further into the babygate drama by management/pr company and the fame hungry trash family, meaning Danielle was by Louis’ side all the way through the first year of Freddie’s life, there are several photos of her with Louis and the kid. So Chicago is synonymous with Louis spending time with Danielle and her brother and being in the midst of the babygate chaos. 

Another link could be the musical Chicago: we know Louis loves musicals (Grease made him audition for the X-Factor in the first place!) and Chicago is a 1975 American jazz musical by Bob Fosse, the original production opened in 1975 and ran for a total of 936 performanences (lol) - it is the second most performed musical ever. It is about a woman,who’s being sent to a woman’s prison in the 1920ies for having murdered her lover, who promised her stardom in the showbiz, but never delivered. In order to regain her celebrity status and increase sympathy towards her in the court of justice, she lies and acts as if she was pregnant (sounds familiar??).

The tone is set - we have both links connecting the song to babygate already. And then he goes ahead and sings about a baby in the first line?! And the best part is - it is pretty obvious by the song who it is meant to be about: Danielle Campbell. He drops enough identifier (“brother,” “Chicago,” “your mother,” “clothes sharing,” to be able to pin down who it is about. Just imagine the spike search results had when the album was released - wait hang on, let me just show you. Isn’t it funny that the collective sentiment will be “huh, but she didn’t have a baby?”

He is very clever about it, though: at first glance it is dressed up as a love song about an ex - in my opinion, though, it isn’t. It is very honest, I think, just not the way the sloppy conclusion leads to believe. To me, it is very much about Danielle, but as exactly what my reading showed: she was someone he could lean on during a hard time, who met him with compassion and understanding, and who was there for him when he had to do things that weren’t easy and black or white. She helped him choose a name for the fake baby he was having (unhinged theory: they were the ones starting the Conchobar rumour /j) He wants to express this and get it off his chest, maybe he wasn’t in the right space back then to show his appreciation and gratefulness properly. 

Maybe, because of the mentioned bitterness and “it” not working out, he can only now allow those feelings and speak them out loud. I think the “it” was the whole idea of stunting with Danielle to keep from being dragged further into babygate. Obviously, he is still very much entangled in the babygate stunt, so it fits, saying it didn’t work out back then. The theme of one of his plans not working out and it destroying/hurting a lot of people in his life is a recurring theme in his songs (“took a left, trying to make it right,” “said I had a plan, time came and changed it all”). He is insisting that it was more than just a means to an end for him: she was important to him, in a way someone becomes important to you when they help you through a hard time. 

The lines would make a lot of sense also in regards to what Danielle has said in an interview a couple years ago that mysteriously has been wiped off the internet last year and the only evidence we have of not collectively imagining things is on tellmethisisnotlove’s archived blog. She says she regrets deeply agreeing to do a PR relationship and seems to be very careful how to word it and that she would never do that again. Sounds like someone who got deeply involved in very shady stunting, if you ask me - and maybe that is why Louis is asking for forgiveness. 

He manages to put “end” in there a couple of times, and he is also saying that with time, the bitterness (about it not ending? not working out?) turns into sweetness - this is kind of along the lines of what I have been theorising, that he is starting to gear up to end it again. I do admit, that it can also be interpreted as him finding peace with it and just accepting that this is his life now “Cos i’ve been wondering what you’d say, would you have told me to keep going, or would you say to walk away?” - he is asking her if she’s seen that he is reviving the babygate stunt (and maybe she knows what he’s trying to do?) and what she thinks of it. It seems they had these conversations before, where she reminded him that he could always just leave it all and walk away if it got too much. And now seemingly he chooses to keep going (with the plan? To eventually end it? Or to just use it to his advantage?) and wonders if she would agree with that today.

To me, this song speaks of affection and respect for someone he considers somewhat a friend, that because of the circumstances was deeply knowledgeable about the predicaments he’s found himself in. The image does fit what I think happened - that they became actual friends and got along great while stunting, and that she managed to relieve some of the pressure and stress instead of adding to it, which is a feat as a hired beard.

Of course I am aware of confirmation bias, but when it makes this much sense, I just go hmmmmm… 

I am really glad to be reading that he wasn’t alone during this time, and that she was able to offer him comfort and strength and someone to lean on.

So, in conclusion - Chicago is, just as I predicted, about babygate, but not the way you think. It’s about Danielle Cmapbell, but not the way you think. It’s an honest song, but just not the way you think. 

It’s an insanely clever song, and I love that he decided to share this with us. Thank you, Louis.

Find an overview of all my close readings here.

[skepticalarrie]

Do you feel that majority of Louis’ fans believe that he is the dad?

I see mixed opinions, some think we, larries, are minority, some think ppl who believe the narrative just have louder voices. What I noticed on instagram that most of larrie accounts avoid this topic cause of the hate they get, and since Louis made larrie denials and praised his son, ppl who believe him they think Louis gave the green light to send hate towards larries.

And sensitive questions, do you think we larries are welcomed in this fandom by Louis (despite his larrie denials)? Does Louis need and want us to stay?

Hi, anon! Sorry, it took forever to answer this! But I wanted to address this one ask before stepping back from the topic for a while. (thank you to everyone who always sends me asks and discussions about babygate for understanding!)

IMO it’s both. I do believe the majority think Louis is Freddie’s biological father, and I also think this majority is unbelievably louder than us. You made some great points that I agree with. I think those of us who question the narrative are often 1) older fans who are more tired of the day-to-day interactions and follow-ups, and 2) somewhat silenced because of the overwhelming hate we receive. So I assume this topic is probably avoided or only discussed privately in group chats, anonymous accounts, or places like tumblr, where we can stay in our bubble more easily. That’s why the other side is so much louder. I do think there are still a lot of us who don’t believe the narrative, but it's nothing compared to when this all started. Back then, it felt like no one believed it. Over the years, Louis has done a lot to rebrand and embed the idea into fans’ minds that Freddie is his carbon copy and that he’s a devoted father. I think these are the two key pillars that make people not only believe he’s Freddie’s father but also become deeply attached to their relationship, especially since it’s been so publicly shared.

They went from something super shady and avoided to placing it front and center, making the father-son dynamic likeable and even endearing to A LOT of fans. That’s why I think the majority now believe it… honestly, being a father has become a huge part of Louis’ persona, and it’s something his fans love. If you look at comments and stuff like that, people are obsessed with him and Freddie, especially after the documentary. It’s crazy how it changed.

As for your second question, ugh… I’m honestly not sure. I do go back and forth on it a lot. It feels very hypocritical of him to act like he doesn’t want us here after all the fan service and encouragement he gave us regarding babygate and larry discussions. Especially since a huge part of his fanbase seems to be accepting very accepting of larry. It feels like a betrayal every time he encourages the hate toward us, an awful look on him.

[twopoppies]

https://www.tumblr.com/tommolotsoflove/748513342994432000

Gina. Why is nobody talking about this? Everything is sooo damn similar to bbg. The fake kid, fake fatherhood, changes in birth certificate, everyone acting casual when the news dropped. Isn't this just the same?

Well, I for one only saw it right now. But also, those of us who’ve been here at least since 2016 are fucking tired of repeating the same thing over and over. We discussed Ronan Farrow back then. We discussed Jack Nicholson. We discussed a lot. And put it all together in masterposts. And it’s obvious af that Louis isn’t Freddie’s dad. But no one here cares about facts anymore. And Louis for some unknown reason wants us to believe that kid is his. I doubt, like Woody Allen, it’s to hide his infertility, but it very much is likely because somehow having a kid makes him not gay and not Harry Styles’ partner.

Anyway, for those who think that the only way babygate could be real is if it isn’t the first time it’s happened, this is a well documented post.

[gracefullou]

Larries can make jokes and memes all they want but they can never hide their hurting and hatred towards Louis because he denied their ship. That in addition to the fact that he respects the women in his life will always be a source of their hatred. No wonder a lot of ex-larries and directioners turn into the most vile hrries who can't stop talking shit about him

"it feels hypocritical of him to act like he doesn't want us here after all the fan service and encouragement he gave us regarding babygate and larry discussions". Bitch where??! He's been denying your delusions since 2013 and he sure as hell never gave you any hints to make conspiracy theories about his child. He wouldn't encourage your kind of viciousness on ANY child let alone his own. Not his problem if he as much as wears something green you'll use it as proof for your ship. Or that the other half of the ship and your actual fav is a coward who chose to never comment on it. The last sentence though 😵‍💫 Tells you everything you need to know about Larries' relationship with Louis. They simply resent him. Maybe not all larries feel this way but it's hard to believe that when these grandmas are still leading that fandom and spreading their poison daily 😬.

[a-halfblood-named-coin]

“Why are larries so weird about Harry’s girlfriends?”

Easy, I don’t think they’re his girlfriends, they’re his work obligations.

Now I’m not one to condone internet harassment, it’s wholly unnecessary and only makes situations worse. So I’m not fond of those who go out of their way to comment nasty things under his “girlfriends” posts (even if I find some of them to be unlikable people). But something I want to emphasize is how many “Larry” theories can exist and be discussed without believing in Larry.

For example, Harry and his stunt relationships.

I do not need you to believe in Larry for you to see how uncomfortable Harry looks around these women. You don’t need to even think he’s gay to find all of these relationships sketchy and suspicious. Harry himself said, and I quote, “Sometimes people say, 'You've only publicly been with women,' and I don't think I've publicly been with anyone. If someone takes a picture of you with someone, it doesn't mean you're choosing to have a public relationship or something.” To me, that reads as “all of the relationships you think I’ve had were NOT actual relationships I was choosing to have.” Aka those were work, and you have no idea what my romantic/sexual life is like. You don’t find even a little strange that Harry speaks on how much he values his privacy in his personal life, how he keeps a better barrier between work and casual life, and yet is seen parading around with his new girlfriends all the time? You don’t find it odd that Harry can disappear and not be seen for weeks but gets caught all the time with his lady friends? You do not need to be a Larry and think that shits weird. You do not have to be a Larry to open your eyes to the inner workings of the music industry. And this goes for other theories as well: babygate and H/L being closeted mostly. They exist separately from the Larry theory and yet it seems that only larries are willing to take a peek behind the curtain. So that’s why, it’s not about refusing to accept that Harry is happy with his new girl, it’s the fact that I don’t think Harry has publicly dated anyone in a long time and most likely never has.

[hyunjining]

This is probably going to be more than you expected but I am at a stage where I'm pretty disappointed with the actions Harry and Louis have taken over the last three-ish years. Babygate especially. Like Harry's shit is embarrassing but Louis' behavior has made me really change my view of him. I just don't recognize the boys I was once a massive fan of. And before anyone comes at me with 'the boys don't owe you anything' or 'you hate closeted people'. No. I'm allowed to have opinions without feeling owed something or hating closeted people. I think a bunch of people have been turned off as well. As for those who have stayed, it seems that most people on my dash are content with Louis touring and are excited for HS4 from Harry. I can't really relate because even though I like their music and go to their shows, it's not the main reason I'm here. It will always be 1D over their solo careers every day of the week for me. And it will always be Harry and Louis as individuals and as a couple over their music careers. Because for me their music careers will always be accompanied by stunts, manufactured images, pushed narratives and agendas, and unsavory people. This didn't bother me as much during the band days or during the first couple of years of the hiatus because we would get a lot of content to mitigate the fakeness or ugliness. But now it's just getting a bit too tiresome to constantly keep looking under the surface. Because I sure as hell am not going to accept the Harry and Louis I get at face value most of the time because they are simply not worth supporting unless you look deeper.

i actually really appreciate you taking the time to type that all out for me because i really do want to have an honest discussion. i think your feelings make total sense honestly. babygate has been so bewildering lately i barely know what to make of it and i think that has caused me to just feel disinterested in all this. it only took almost 12 years lmao. i’ve always said that even though we don’t know the intimate details of why they do what they do, it’s still perfectly valid not to agree with it. and i definitely didn’t agree with freddie being in the doc. and another year of him in donny for christmas… woof. idk man. i think i’ve been using my newfound interest in kpop as an excuse to ignore harry and louis because i don’t know how to feel 😶