#atla ursa meta

[late-draft]

The side-effects showed up before the firebending itself...

[akiizayoi4869]

So the official ATLA YouTube channel posted a video earlier of the mirror scene in the finale, with some added commentary from the Braving The Elements podcast. Something that was said by the director of the upcoming movie, as well as the person who actually worked on that scene back then, Laura Montgomery, was very interesting.

In this scene here:

When Azula turns away from the mirror, Laura was saying that it could be interpreted in two ways: Azula turning around to confront her mother in real time, or, if you realized that Ursa only existed within the mirror and she wasn't actually there, it can be seen as Azula turning her back on her mother. Definitely an interesting way to look at it!

[missaccuracy]

In "Zuko Alone," I noticed that Ursa never calls Azula affectionately, unlike Zuko, whom she calls "darling". At the same time, Ozai calls Azula "my dear," but never calls Zuko that. I think this is interesting and shows which parent is closer to which child. What do you think about that?

Indeed, I've always thought it to be DELIBERATE that we see Ursa using affectionate language with Zuko and Ozai with Azula, but not the other way around.

Ozai calls Azula "my dear", but whenever he addresses Zuko, he almost always calls him "prince Zuko". Ursa also takes a more official tone when addressing Azula, calling her "young lady".

We have no evidence of Ursa calling Azula endearingly on screen, but at the same time, I honestly don't think that she never did that with Azula.

What I personally think happened is that Ursa used to use affectionate language with Azula, when she was younger, just like Ozai used to do with Zuko, but with time, they both stopped, when Ozai started to see the sides of Zuko he didn't like and Ursa started to see the sides of Azula she didn't like.

I think this subtle characterization element in Zuko Alone shows which parent understands which child better. With Ozai, it's obvious that he started to resent Zuko, and with Ursa, I don't think she hated Azula, but she didn't understand her and started to instinctively keep distance from her, paying more attention to Zuko, which unfortunately, contributed to a horrible result for Azula in the end.

[isthei]

my fav dynamics in atla are. not ships?? the platonic interactions are so so compelling, just as if not more compelling than the ships. i love u fire siblings tragically destroying each other. i love u water siblings torn apart by gender and brought together by love. i love u ursa being a complicated person. i love u uncle iroh possibly projecting lu ten on zuko. i love u toph’s horrible relationship with her parents. i love u aang’s conflict with the past avatars

[zuko-always-lies]

Azula is the family member Zuko cares the least about, by far [and no, it's not because she's mean to him and no, this is not a post about Zuko's morality or anything like that]

So the entire premise of Zuko's arc is he spends years and years trying to regain his father's love and appreciation, that he spent three years trying to capture the Avatar so that his father would like him again. We even see in a flashback that exiled Zuko misses his father badly.

And when Zuko decides to completely break off his relationship with his father, he decides that this merits a dramatic confrontation, since his relationship with Ozai is so important to him. Even after that, the second to last scene of the series is Zuko visiting Ozai.

Zuko often takes Iroh and his support for granted, but even in Books 1 and 2 there are plenty of moments which act to reaffirm how much Zuko values and appreciates his uncle. He goes out of his way to protect his uncle on a couple occasions. And in Book 3, after Zuko has screwed up his relationship with Iroh, one of Zuko's core motivations becomes fixing his relationship with his uncle and regaining Iroh's love, trust, and appreciation.

Ursa is someone who Zuko talks about far less, yet the series makes it very clear how much Zuko misses her, with "Zuko Alone" and "The Earth King" and "The Day of Black Sun: The Eclipse." And the second to last scene in the series is Zuko trying to find her.

That leaves Azula. Zuko never seems to miss Azula the least, even though he hasn't seen her for years when the series begins. In fact, when she unexpectedly shows up and greets him, instead of being happy to see her, he's angry and suspicious (to be fair to Zuko, she did turn out to have ulterior motives due to Ozai's orders, but if he really deeply missed her, he'd probably be at least a little happy to see her regardless. Mai and Ty Lee reacted with joy the first time they saw Azula again). And in Books 2 and 3, there is essentially nothing to suggest that Zuko misses the better relationship he had with Azula when they were younger.

For instance, in "The Beach," Zuko angsts over an old photograph of his family.

His eyes focus on Ozai

and he remembers a happy memory associated with Ozai:

and then Zuko's eyes focus on Ursa

and he remembers a happy memory associated with her

Yet Zuko never looks at younger Azula in that picture, nor does he think of her at all. The "Happy Family" that Zuko misses includes Ozai, Ursa, and even Iroh and Lu Ten (shown in a separate memory sequence at little earlier), but not little Azula.

Ultimately, what we see in the first half of Book 3 is that Zuko is willing to take advantage of Azula's kindness, when she shows it to him, but he never acknowledges it, thanks her for it, or reciprocates in the slightest.

In the end, in the DoBS Zuko leaves Azula behind without a regret or even a thought. Ozai gets a big confrontation; Azula gets nothing. And after that, we see that Zuko misses Mai, and still feels complex feelings for Ozai ("Fatherlord," anyone?), but there's nothing to suggest he misses Azula at all or feels a deep attachment to her. The penultimate scene of the show even features Zuko visiting Ozai, not Azula.

Some people might point out that Azula is a bad sister to Zuko. That's definitely true. She says and does plenty of awful things to him over the series.

Yet that doesn't explain things. Ozai is far, far worse to Zuko than Azula ever is, yet Zuko cares deeply about Ozai to the degree that Zuko's entire arc is about it. Merely talking about "look how mean Azula is" explains almost nothing. Is possible to explain why

This does bring me to my main point. The ATLA fandom tends to believe that Zuko cares about Azula a lot and that he places a lot of value in having a good relationship with her, tends to believe that Zuko is obsessed with Azula.

However, the reality is that Zuko by far cares about Azula the least of any member of his family and that he places almost no value on having a good relationship with her. She is never a priority for him and is at most only an obstacle. All of Zuko's other family members loam far higher in Zuko's priorities and headspace than Azula. And if he is obsessed with her, it's not in a loving way. Maybe "Azula the enemy" and "Azula my advisor and emotional caretaker" are significant to him, but "Azula my sister" never seems to be.

Again, this isn't a moral judgement, merely a fact.

[ilikepjo24]

Lol another dumb take on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/ER8SmBToSm

WOW! There are so many things to unpack here...

"Iroh, the most-" Iroh!? IROH!? THE Iroh!? The "redeemed" warlord that only gave a fuck about being a warlord after it affected him personally? That Iroh? The Iroh that left a child to bare the weight of a nation just bc he, the mature responsible adult, wanted to sit on his ass instead of being mature and responsible? THAT Iroh? It seems awful like both those actions appear to be those of a selfish and unempathetic person. And let's not forget that even after his "redemption" he assaulted June. So how exactly is he the most understanding and kind person in the show, exactly?

Would you like to know who actually is the most understanding and kind person in the show? AANG.

The boy who found it in himself to forgive and learn to have affection for the dude that chased him around the world and almost hurt/killed him and his friends multiple times. The boy who found it in himself to forgive the nation that genocided his people enough to want to help them, teach them their old ways and bring them back to the light. The boy that found it in himself to spare Ozai, a sadistic, manipulative, abusive warlord that wanted to watch the world burn in an attempt to satisfy his narcissism. And may the record note that Iroh did not extended his own brother the same mercy. He believed Ozai needed to die, when Aang didn't. So Aang is more empathetic, understanding and kind that Iroh.

And do you know what Aang has to say about Azula?

That he believes in her ability to do good and be good. That he trusts her to do so. He could have had her executed. He didn't. He could have taken away her bending. He didn't. He could have said she's born evil and a bad egg. He didn't. He put in a good word for her. He said she did something good. That can be good. THAT'S what the actual most understanding and kind person in the whole franchise has to say about Azula.

"She smiles when-" So did everyone else and so does everyone ever alive when justice is served. Because for the audience, the event was unfair and traumatizing. But for the people of the Fire Nation it was justice. And it's only normal for people to be happy when justice is served. When a groomer goes to jail you don't think "oh, that poor groomer", you think "good, this piece of shit definitely deserved it". Similarly, in the Fire Nation, an imperialistic dictatorship, when someone disrespects their Firelord, which they worship as almost a god (if not more, bc we see them worship their Firelord more often than Agni), and that person gets punished they don't think "oh, that like boy", they think "good, this piece of shit definitely deserved it". That's not called "being a bad egg", that's called propaganda and borderline mass brainwashing.

"She mocks-" She's repeating what she heard from adults in her life. That's not being a bad egg, that's bad parenting.

"She tortures-" Not cannon in any way. We've heard that she threw bread at them. Not only was that told from Zuko's pov, who's known to be a biased narrator when it comes to Azula, but it's also not even that freaking bad. It's bread, when it hits the water it becomes soft. No one ever died because they got hit by a loaf of bread. And she doesn't burn them with.

"Her mother's comments-" Oh, you mean the "what is wrong with that child"? That comment? That comment that was thrown at a child after doing a very normal childlike thing? I used to to play execution with my Barbie dolls and beheading them by pulling off their heads and my least favourites would always be the ones that got executed. Kids break toys they don't value and/or like. Azula is not obligated to like or value a gift that wasn't for her. The doll was a gift for every little girl. It wasn't personal. It wasn't hers. She doesn't have to like or value it. She doesn't have to not break it. The only reason that she chose fire instead of execution is because she had fire handy. That comment Ursa made was absolutely not justified.

"She's never given an excuse-" Not only is this take proof that media literacy is dead, it's flat out anti-intellectualism. We see that Fire Nation schools brainwash kids by shoving propaganda in their faces and we know Azula went in a Fire Nation school. All that's left to do is put 2 and 2 together. It's 4. It's fucking 4. Azula was brainwashed in the Fire Nation school that she went to that brainwashes Fire Nation kids. Canon fact. Use your brain.

"Her vision of what she wants is twisted-" What, exactly, is twisted about wanting to be acknowledged by your family that is proud of you, being loved by your family that is supposed to love you anyway, and completing the mission you've been brainwashed into thinking is the right thing all your life? What is twisted about reaching expectations and having a happy family? I'll wait.

"We're supposed to sympathize with the spi- No, we're not. The spirit is very obviously a liar and a manipulator as we've seen throughout the whole damn comic. And it wants to eat her. The spirit is the villain of the story that has been continuously twisting reality to weaken Azula's ambition and will to fight back, so that it could kill her. By the end of the comic we're supposed to know that the spirit is a full of shit and we shouldn't trust what it says, since all it has said throughout the whole comic is lies. Not sympathize with it.

"Rationalizations of her behavior are believe yet unprovable and based on subtext." It's almost like she's not the main character. The show isn't going to take time diving into her background. They are going to only give us subtext and we have to use our critical thinking skills and come to a believable conclusion, as we do. Zuko loving Ursa isn't outright stated at the show at any point, but we know it's a fact because we see it in the way they interact. We know his mother matters to him because he thinks of her and misses her. That's subtext. And we know Azula is not to blame for the person she was bought up to be because Fire Nation schools canonically brainwash their students. That's subtext. You can't selectively decide that this subtext is enough to prove this point, but that subtext doesn't prove that point because it's not outright stated. That's called double standards.

"The show portrays her as being inherently evi-" The show? You mean the same show that didn't even portray the genocider, treacherous dictator (Sozin) and the abusive, manipulative dictator (Ozai) as inherently evil went out of its way to portray the manipulated, abused, brainwashed child as a bad egg? ...Sure. That's what happened.

"Mai and Ty Lee do the same stuff but are portrayed differ-" No, they are not. Mai is portrayed as somebody who abused the power they have over others, since she views ordering servants around as a fun activity, and as somebody who has no empathy towards their family, as she didn't hesitate to agree that her brother has less worth than a king. Ty Lee is portrayed as sadistic, since she's animated to smirk and sneer while taking down soldiers defending their homes. I think she even goes as far as to mock them at sons point, but take that with a pinch of salt. They are portrayed to be classist, sadistic, unempathetic people that only give a fuck about the select few and mystery everybody else. Y'all just refuse to see it because Ty Lee is cute and is constantly infantilized because of it and because Mai protected your lord and savior, Zuko, right after she was done being classist and unempathetic. They are not portrayed as better, you just go out of your way to portray Azula as worst.

"Even in LoK-" Azula is given Freudian Excuse. You just refuse to see it because, as opposed to Legend of Korra, the creators do not chew your food up and spit it in your mouth for you to swallow. You have to put the pieces of the puzzle together and make realization. Which can understandably be hard for people that have a brain the size of a peanut, like yourself.

"It feels weird for a show like Avatar to imply somebody was evil from birt-" It feels weird because it is weird and it is weird because it's something they would never do which is why they didn't do it. You literally just created this narrative inside of your head while understanding that it goes completely against the philosophy of the show. And now it's weird to you that it doesn't align with the show? Make it make sense.

This isn't asking for an Azula redemption arc (although "this fourteen-year-old who was acting under orders of a tyrannical fire lord can't be redeemed" seems incredibly harsh), this is just me wondering why the writers consistently, across mediums, refuse to suggest that she's even the slightest bit a product of her environment? But Zuko gets a pass for pretty much everything more or less? Alright then lol.

This is close to being the smartest thing you have said during this post. Unfortunately it is easy to notice that some of the creators just don't like Azula. That's it. That's the reason why. They don't like her and they don't want her to have a happy ending. So it's good that somebody else is riding this show now. Faith Erin Hicks, as we see from her comic, is not afraid to treat Azula as the victim she is, and is not afraid to lay the blame on the adults that failed her. As opposed to previous creators, she seems to be willing to apply the general philosophy of the show in Azula's character as well. Which is something she's able to do because Azula is not, in fact, inherently evil. She's a victim of abuse and a manipulated child that has done some very fucked up things but has all her life ahead of her to grow up and be better.

Give us a scene of Ozai molding her into the cruel person she is

Supporting and praising bad behavior is enabling it. A good parent would say "I understand that you were upset at feeling as though you were underestimated when you got efficient results, but it's important to keep your cool and respect your instructors since they have more experience than you. If you feel as though the inability of this instructor to stray from traditional paterns is holding you back, communicate that problem with me, and I'll find you a new teacher if it's necessary." Does Ozai do that? No. What does he do? Praise her. What will Azula do in response? Repeat the same behavior to receive praise again. What is that called? Nursing cruel/bad behavior.

Give us a scene of Azula being at least a normal child at some point.

Stealing sweets at a sleepover and recreating scenes from a movie/play with your sibling? I recall doing both those things as a child. We're talking about universal normal child experiences.

Don't vindicate her mother being cruel.

The narrative itself is not excusing Ursa. Azula herself goes to lengths to hold her accountable, actually. The only ones excusing Ursa's actions are Zuko, who's looking at her through rose colored glasses, because she's one of the first people to show him love, and he wants to sing the best of her, and the fandom, for the same exact reason.

Have Iroh say something slightly more insightful than "she's a crazy bitch leave her alone"

Personally, I don't value Iroh's opinion at all. I think he has to work through the issues that he obviously has with himself, instead of projecting those issues onto Azula, which is what he's doing. But since you care about his opinion so much, here's him saying Azula has the capability to find peace.

Here's an easy one: instead of smiling when Zuko got burnt, Azula looks visually horrified. That tiny, tiny change would've made her far more nuanced! It wouldn't be much, but not only would it make the fire lord's actions seem even worse, it shows us that deep down, she does--or at least, did--care! This is more in line with the show's themes and far more interesting than "she's just gonna be super evil hehe".

Here's the thing. Azula doesn't smile because she's just so "evil hehe". She's smiling because Zuko is receiving a just punishment for his actions. At least as far as she's concerned.

Think about it, in the Fire Nation they treat their King as a god. They pray/say an anthem/swear loyalty to the Firelord and the crown every single day. It should be needless to point out that nobody would question the actions of the Firelord. They would just assume that this is the correct course of action because this is what the Firelord is doing.

Azula not only is a subject of that Firelord but she is the daughter of her father. She was 11 when the Agni Kai. At that age, kids do not question their parents. The think things are right because the parents do it. If Dad is upset with Zuko, then Zuko must have done something wrong, because Dad can't be wrong, he's Dad, he's never wrong.

So both as his daughter and as his subject, Azula has been conditioned from the day she was born to think that he's always right. So when he decides to punish Zuko, that's just another instance where he's right. So why would Azula be upset with him for being right? Especially considering that if she were upset with him, it's possible that you would also receive a punishment for disagreeing with his methods.

So imagine you are Azula. You see your dad, who is always right, and is also your king, who is also always right do something. Anything. Do you think to yourself "Why would he do that? That's bad!" or do you think "He's right for doing what he does because he's always right."? She's under the impression that he's a just ruler and father, so why wouldn't she be satisfied at the sight of him rendering justice to the foolish subject that disobeyed? Especially when having a different opinion can result to being in danger?

Do we get anything from the answer to her personality being "bad egg"?

No, we don't. Which is why this isn't what they did. You just have a false idea of pretty much everything regarding Azula's character and how it was handled.

Thus proven.

[recovering-dungeon-lord]

I’ve been wanting to make a post about this for a while, because I keep seeing this ongoing debate in the ATLA fandom over whether or not Ursa loved Azula/was a good mother to her, and I haven’t seen a lot of people talk about this aspect of it. I don’t think Ursa was a perfect mother by any means, but I do think she did the best she could under the (terrible) circumstances, and I do think she loved Azula. But more importantly, I think that deep down Azula herself knows this.

She insists that her mother didn’t love her, but to me it seems so obvious that this idea comes from Ozai, that it’s a lie he used to manipulate his daughter. He wanted her to believe he was the only one she could rely on, and more importantly, that he was the only one who could ever love her. On the surface, Azula does believe that her mother didn’t love her. She tells anyone who will listen, she uses it to justify the pain and the rage that fuel her cruelty. She tells herself she believes it’s Ursa’s fault over and over again because it’s easier than admitting the truth: that Ozai is using her and always has been, that her pain and rage come from Ozai’s abuse and the isolation he’s caused her.

But think about what happens at the end of season 3. Ozai tosses Azula to the side. For the first time, he shows his cards and treats her like the pawn he’s always secretly thought of her as. And all of Azula’s doubts come bubbling to the surface. Her entire life has been a lie. She becomes paranoid and thinks everyone is out to get her. She starts hallucinating visions of her mother, taunting her.

And what does this version of Ursa taunt her with? If Azula really, truly believed that Ursa never loved her and only cared about Zuko, you’d think it would be something like “I knew you’d turn out to be a monster” or “Zuko was always better than you.” But it isn’t. It’s “I love you, Azula.” Because that is Azula’s greatest fear. She’s afraid that this thing, this shield of ‘my mother never loved me’ that she’s been using to justify everything, is a lie.

If Ursa actually did love her, then what was it all for? All the anger, all the cruelty, all the things she did to impress Ozai, to earn his love, were for nothing. Not only because he was using her as a pawn the whole time, but because she could have had that love all along, from Ursa. If her mom loved her, then she’s spent most of her life twisted up inside, causing pain and suffering and destruction, over the pursuit of something she already had. And I think that terrifies her more than anything else, because somewhere inside her she knows it’s true.

[five-flavor-soup]

I personally think that basing your interpretation of how Ursa treated Azula on Zuko’s memories shown in ‘Zuko Alone’ is kind… incorrect. You can obviously — they’re the only real images of their childhood we get in the cartoon, other than the tiniest of snapshots in sepia — and that’s fine, but for me personally I just don’t think they’re complete enough.

These memories are from Zuko’s perspective. Not Ursa’s, not Azula’s, not Ozai’s or Iroh’s—Zuko’s perspective, his memories. And they’re all about him and Ursa together: every one of these memories have Ursa at their centre. We see her protect him and be kind to him, see her be physically affectionate and gentle, see her encourage him to be kind to himself and to Azula.

They essentially tell us that Zuko is Ursa’s son first, Ozai’s son second. Ozai remains a hovering, intimidating shadow on the sidelines (we still don’t see his face, we don’t see him genuinely interact with his children, and we see him irritating his father while being a very hands-off kinda dad himself) but Ursa is fully present. And ‘Zuko Alone’ is about Zuko trying to figure out who he is: the memories show that he views being his mother’s son as an exceptionally important part of his identity, which means they are about Zuko and his relationship with Ursa alone.

They are not supposed to tell us that Ursa neglected or abused Azula emotionally—that she only focused on protecting Zuko, while leaving Azula to suffer in Ozai’s incapable hands. Sure, we see Ursa scold Zuko for acting like Azula and cuddle him right after, and we see her scold Azula for acting mean and not cuddle her right after, but the key differences here are that Zuko shows guilt after frightening the turtleducks and Azula doubles down on trying to scare Zuko. The behaviour is different and will be, by any halfway decent parent, treated differently. 

I’m absolutely not saying that Azula wasn’t abused, because she 100% was. She was absolutely abused by Ozai, and I’m not ruling out that Ursa didn’t have a hand in how Azula ultimately turned out. But my point here is: these memories are far too limited and narrow for the viewer to properly determine whether Azula was treated incorrectly by Ursa. 

Zuko isn’t going to remember an intimate, lovely moment between Ursa and Azula when all that’s on his mind is his identity, and how it’s entangled with his mother and what she may have sacrificed for him. Additionally, he’s not particularly fond of Azula at this moment in the show (she did kind of kickstart his being a refugee, disregarding how the audience sees this sequence of events having begun), so he’s not going to remember her fondly either. Why would Zuko try to remember Ursa’s relationship with Azula at that point, instead of his own?

(Small tidbit: we also... don't know if Ursa's last words to Azula were 'what is wrong with that child', disregarding the comics which completely ruin azula anyway. Again, the memories are from Zuko's perspective and therefore won't show any private moments between Ursa and Azula. We're not even certain whether Azulon actually ordered Ozai to kill Zuko, or if that is simply what Azula interpreted it as/thought would be funny to say--causing the sequence of events that ultimately put Ozai on the throne. But whatever)

[phoenix-king-ozai]

The most surprising thing about the comics is that Ozai didn't just kill Ursa after Azulon died. Seriously they don't like each other and it surprises Ozai didn't just toss Ursa under the bus to try and make his accession look legit and framing her as the sole culprit to kill two birds with one stone. He already has heirs, Ursa is legit useless to him at this point.

It makes me feel they had no idea what to do with her character so they made up a new backstory. It surprises they didn't go the easy route of Ozai simply killing her after Azulon died to try and cover himself.

Obviously, the comic writers Yang and Co didn’t want Ursa to be killed because they wanted her to have her “happy ending”with their OC character called Ikea excuse me Ikem. Despite having to abandon her children and lose her original face and memories. It would had been better if Ursa hid at Ba Sing Se or Yu Dao a Fire Nation Colony instead of Hira’a her home village that Ozai would be able to assassinate her easily from.

Ursa should have been hunted by Yuyan Archer or Combustion Man due to her being an assassin and knowing the true nature of Fire Lord Azulon’s death of a rather successful assassination by posion. Which was also stupid writing wise given Firebenders strong resistance to posion even in old age as shown by Iroh and the White Jade Tea.

However, Azulon’s death was much more believable due to his immensely old age whereas Ursa being a woman in the prime years of her life would not be. Many of the daimyo lords of the prefectures of the Fire Nation would be EXTREMELY skeptical of Ursa’s death given that she is not a warrior.

Honestly, the biggest and stupidest mistake on the writers part was Ikem surviving after confronting Fire Lord Azulon’s carriage to take Ursa back. Azulon or Ozai’s soliders should had executed this peasant commoner for daring to threaten the Fire Nation Royal Family at all. What gall and arrogance! Nor should Ozai given into Ursa desire to spare his life. Ozai doesn’t know or care about Ursa at all! She is just a eugenics experiment for the Fire Sage and his father the Fire Lord. In fact Ozai should have burned Ikem to ashes for daring to point his wooden sword at his father and Fire Lord.

Obviously, the comic writers took the stereotypical route of making Ursa a victim of a forced arranged marriage where Ursa is kept from her true love by an evil domineering abusive man. 🙄😒 Despite, the ATLA creators stating that Ozai and Ursa had a good relationship earlier during their marriage.

[firenaition]

just threw up thinking about how azula grew up thinking ozai's unyielding discipline was love

[peony-pearl]

Ursa's backstory felt like they were throwing darts to add onto the tragedy but it felt really unnecessary. Maybe for another character, but Ursa really didn't need this convoluted backstory when the original one made more sense. Especially since none of this was hinted at in the show and we don't even see her ditch the imperialist beliefs that she was feeding to the kids after the war. She has like five minutes of screentime and I low-key thought she was dead and that Zuko was just getting Ozai to admit it at first.

Hell it makes no sense Ozai didn't kill her in the comics because she's legit a liability. The moment Azulon's body hit the floor she should've been thrown down the well.

Oh absolutely 100%

The backstory they have her in the comics felt so much like they're trying to make sure we know she's 'good' by making her not want to marry Ozai, but they completely missed the mark on making a completely fascinating character. But by giving Ursa an old boyfriend and a reason for him to dislike Ozai, it makes them 'good' and, like you said, we never even see Ursa ditch her beliefs on the war, nor even hear about Ikem's/Noren's take on the war, but again, in giving him a reason to dislike Ozai, it feels like shorthand for 'he's good!! Really!!'

I think it would have been hilarious if Ursa, after having her memory wiped, was secretly an Ozai supporter and/or when she got her identity as Ursa back, she forgot who Kiyi was

[julietwiskey1]

Too bad they likely won't explore the fact Azula is now a middle child

In the comics I assume you mean. And yeah, I don’t see that influencing Azula’s character in any upcoming comics or story lines. For one, she is just too far away from the Fire Nation and from her family. She isn’t in a situation where she is competing for attention with Zuko or Kiyi.

Another reason that the middle child dynamic doesn’t really affect her because she has never actually been one, she was raised as the youngest, but is predominantly affected by being the golden child.

Now for my headcanons :)

A flaw I attribute to Ursa in my fanfics is that she is a parent that doesn’t know how to properly divide her attention between her kids. Prone to focusing all her attention to the one that is performing the worst. Which was mostly Zuko growing up. Though if Ursa stayed it might go to Azula as her behavioral issues continued to worsen.

But if Azula returns she won’t be the middle child, she will be the prodigal daughter. Ursa would likely shift most of her attention to Azula as she continues to struggle with her place and mental health. This would come at the cost of giving proper attention to Zuko, but more importantly Kiyi. Furthering how Kiyi is a Azula replacement in how she becomes ignored like Azula was in favor of the older, struggling child.

I think if they went this route it would be great for Azula to be the one to correct Ursa, or at least point out the neglect. She knows what is happening now, and can make sure what happened to her doesn’t get passed down. And it becomes a point with real character growth for Ursa. Possibly with this being when Ursa understands where she went wrong.

Thanks for the ask.

[akiizayoi4869]

Just had a thought about this line. After Azula says this, Zuko doesn't say anything to try and deny it. Which is what you would expect him to do since what she's saying is technically an insult to his favorite person in the world. The fact that he says nothing says one of two things:

Zuko himself thinks that Azula is a monster, and thus sees nothing wrong with what she just said.

He doesn't say anything because from what he can remember about Ursa and Azula before their mother disappeared, they never had a positive interaction between each other, and that Ursa always treated Azula differently. So regardless of whether or not Ursa actually said that to Azula, her actions towards her made that way of thinking perfectly clear.

Also worth noting that absolutely nothing in canon says that Azula's way of thinking about her mother is wrong. I know that people like to use the mirror scene as proof, but here's the thing about that: it's a hallucination of Ursa. An image from Azula's mind, that is saying things that Azula wants to hear in that moment, things that she wishes her mother had said to her back when she was a child. Positive reinforcement that she always gave to Zuko no matter what he did. Particularly the "I love you, Azula. I do" part. Because out of everything else, Azula desperately wanted her mother to love her. And she never felt that she did.

[missaccuracy]

Taking those awful comics into account, I have zero clue why Ozai simply didn't kill Zuko after Ursa left. It's clear at this point Zuko is a 'disappointment' and Azula is passing expectations with flying colors. If anything Ozai should've been looking at Zuko sideways when he realized Zuko isn't catching up like he wants and trying to get rid of him so Azula can take his spot as she is more useful. Just wait a few months when Azulon's death dies down, let Zuko have a totally not staged 'accident' and boom, Azula is heir, problem child out of the way, Ozai gets what he wants with zero drawback.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense for a comics Ozai to keep Zuko alive, other than that Ozai probably still wanted to keep his only male heir.

In the show, though, there are more explanations to this.

The thing is, this would be a logical thing to do IF Ozai wanted to get rid of Zuko. Interestingly, though, in the show, Ozai actually wanted to make Zuko his heir. Yes, Zuko didn't meet his expectations, but when Ozai found out that Zuko supposedly killed the avatar and helped Azula take Ba Sing Se, he immediately accepted him as his heir and during the meeting, Zuko was at Ozai's right hand.

Ozai hated Zuko, because he wasn't a capable heir in his eyes, but deep down, he wanted Zuko to be one. And as soon as Zuko "became" the prince Ozai would approve of, Ozai instantly gave him his approval and support, even if it was purely conditional.

Azula was likely a last resort for Ozai, if Zuko would prove himself as completely untrustworthy. And it shows, given that he named Azula Fire Lord only after Zuko betrayed the FN and Azula herself is rather surprised that Ozai gave her this title.

Also, another reason why I think Ozai didn't kill Zuko in the show, is that it was hinted that Ursa and Ozai had a good early relationship. He didn't kill Zuko after she left, bacause he had likely promised Ursa that Zuko won't die and maybe he kept this promise out of some feelings he still had left for Ursa.

[dragomer]

I don't reckon that Ursa was abused by her husband considering her canon characterization nor that Ozai never loved her. However I do believe that pitting your children against each other and everything else that Ozai did to them was abusive to Ursa, it's their kids after all. Abusing people that are close to your friend/partner is an indirect form of abuse, imo. I'd add his "willingness" to obey and murder their son, but I cut him some slack because it wasn't his initiative, but the orders of the supreme ruler of the autocratic society and even Ozai eventually referred to it as "unspeakable". Do you agree?

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the whole 'forced abusive marriage' thing from the comics, make no sense.

Eh, it's definitely an awful thing to do to your spouse but I'm not sure if you could call it specifically 'abuse', not everything bad someone does to someone else is abuse after all.

To be fair, he did call it 'the unthinkable' and made a plot with Ursa to kill Azulon rather than doing it.

Thanks for the ask ^^

[zuko-always-lies]

Unpopular Opinion: Ursa's parenting negatively affected Zuko

One of the fascinating things about the ATLA fandom is that people are utterly uninterested in analyzing how Ursa's parenting really screwed up Zuko, even though it's pretty clear. I don't mean to attack Ursa here, because I think she had good intentions, but, although her parenting was far better than Ozai's, it contributed to Zuko's many poor decisions.

I've given a broader coverage to values Ursa extols to her children elsewhere. The general point you should take away from that is that Ursa was critical in instilling imperialist values in her children and in teaching them to respect/obey the Firelord.

However, that's not the point I will belabor here. I want to turn to something else. Let's take a look closely at the scene where Zuko tries to perform Azula's firebending routine in front of his grandfather and his father but falls flat on his face:

Ozai frowns at this news. Zuko starts off well, doing the same circular motions as Azula earlier. He manages to produce a small fire blast, which does not impress Fire Lord Azulon. When he tries to create another one, he falls. He gets back up, panting heavily, and tries again, only to fall harder. Ursa gets up worriedly and approaches Zuko to comfort him. Young Zuko: I failed. Ursa: No. I loved watching you. That's who you are, Zuko. Someone who keeps fighting even though it's hard.

The lesson that Zuko learns from Ursa here is that his gift is stubborn persistence and that he should never stop trying to meet the toxic expectations of the Fire Nation royal court and of his father(she also might have inadvertently encouraged the Zuko-Azula sibling rivalry).

How do we know this is what Zuko took away from this? These scenes are paired together at the end of "Zuko Alone," as Zuko struggles to defeat Gow:

In the flashback, Zuko is sleeping in his room at night when a hand gently touches his shoulder. He awakens drowsily to see his mother dressed in a cloak.

Young Zuko: … Mom? Ursa: Zuko, please, my love, listen to me. Everything I've done, I've done to protect you. She pulls the barely conscious Zuko into a hug. Ursa: Remember this, Zuko. No matter how things may seem to change, never forget who you are.

and this scene:

Gow: Who ... who are you? Zuko:My name is Zuko. Son of Ursa and Fire Lord Ozai. Prince of the Fire Nation, and heir to the throne. Old man: Liar! I heard of you! You're not a prince, you're an outcast! His own father burned and disowned him!

Zuko took Ursa's advice to never give up and never forget who he was to heart, and as a result even though he's been burned, banished, and declared a traitor, even though he objectively has no real chance of getting his status and Ozai's favor back at this point, Zuko is still trying to do that and refuses to let go of his long-lost position in the Fire Nation as crown prince. The smart thing to do would be to give up and move on, but Zuko refuses to do that.

We can also turn to what Zuko says to Aang in "The Siege of the North, II":

Zuko: I finally have you, but I can't get you home because of this blizzard. [Stands up and looks outside the cave.] There's always something. Not that you would understand. You're like my sister. Everything always came easy to her. She's a firebending prodigy, and everyone adores her. My father says she was born lucky. He says I was lucky to be born. I don't need luck, though. I don't want it. I've always had to struggle and fight and that's made me strong. It's made me who I am.

All of this brings me back to my main point. Ozai might have been the one who burned and banished Zuko, who abused him and declared him a traitor, who demanded that Zuko capture the Avatar, but Ursa is the one who taught Zuko the persistence that made him chase after legends for three years, that made him take reckless risk after reckless risk, that made him continue chasing the Avatar even after Ozai was having him hunted as a traitor across the Earth Kingdom.

The biggest problem in Zuko's life is that he refuses to let go of his dream of regaining Ozai's favor, that he refuses to accept that Ozai doesn't love and move on and find something better to center his life around, and from what we see Ursa played a huge role in this, because she taught Zuko to never give up trying fulfilling the expectations of Ozai and the court, no matter how many times he failed. Ursa wasn't intending ill, but her parenting had a huge negative effect on Zuko's life.