#arthurian romances

[lepetitdragonvert]

The Story of King Arthur and his Knights by Howard Pyle

1933

[gawrkin]

Random question but do you think it's possible to do a story combining the Chronicle version where Guinevere marries Mordred willingly and the Vulgate where Guinevere and Lancelot are lovers without demonizing Guinevere? Specifically imagining in this version Guinevere is bitter like in E A Robinson and explicitly did not want to return to Arthur. Lancelot would have to assume that she was forced ofc as to not die of heartbreak but I think it could work and am surprised no one has tried it yet... it would also work for Guen and Morgan being foils since just as Morgan mellows out Guenevere decides fuck it I'm rebelling against my husband now. She can still have her little redemption where she joins a nunnery, therefore the opposite of Morgan who began in a nunnery.

Yes, you can if you know and aware of what you're doing. Buuut... it also comes with some concessions.

You are not beholden to the standard sequence of events anymore.

If you're combining the two divergent narratives together - making Guinevere love Lancelot and marry Mordred willingly - you've essentially created a new story. You have basically opened a can of worms regarding as to how and why things happen in the story. You are going to need to ask yourself a lot of questions:

Is Guinevere just using Mordred? Does Guinevere love Mordred? Or vice-versa? Mutual? Is Mordred marrying out of pragmatic need or is he also in deep love with Gwen? How did this happen while Guinevere is in a relationship with Lancelot?

How Lancelot aware or unaware of Mordred and Guinevere's relationship? Will he approve of the marriage in any sense? Would Lancelot even act and go back to Logres in the first place? Lancelot never cared about who is married to Guinevere (because Courtly Love), unless it was dishonorable for her to do so. Lancelot might just think that's a great move on Gwen's part if he and Gwen share a dismal view of Arthur. And that's if he wasn't forewarned of Guinevere's next moves beforehand by Gwen herself...

What about Lancelot and Mordred's relationship? Relationships don't happen in a vacuum. For things like a Mordred-loving-Guinevere or vice versa to happen while Lancelot is in the picture, you have to seriously consider setting up the characterizations and relationships a long way before the Fall. Are they aware of each other's affections for Gwen? Were they competing for Gwen's affections before the Grail Quest? Do they respect each other? Hate each other? You may just created a new Tristan-Palamedes-Iseult triangle. Which utterly alters the story. Remember, Mordred is Lancelot's junior in Vulgate.

Does the Burning at the Stake even happen in the first place? A Mordred-that's-in-love-with-Guinevere would never agree to her execution and, depending if he and Lancelot have positive relationship, would never be onboard with Agravain's plan. (It's why in Vulgate, Mordred falls in love after the Burning, nonsensical as it sounds) The exposure of the Affair won't go the usual way anymore, with Mordred going anywhere from convincing Arthur not to execute her, to protesting with Gawain, to dying alongside Gaheris and Gareth to Mordred joining Lancelot's rescue party and maybe killing his own brothers in the process.

Does Guinevere need to be sympathetic? Does anyone else, including Arthur, need to be sympathetic? Why? Are you worried about alienating the audience? Sometimes, you don't really need to morally justify the actions of a given character as long as they make sense and the narrative development with them is engaging /compelling enough on its own. In particular, are you trying to push a moral/ethical message to the audience? Is Arthur the bad guy or not? Is the Arthur in this story - regardless of his characterization - supposed to be in the right or in the wrong?

What is the Political situation surrounding Guinevere's willing marriage? Everyone is onboard with it? Archbishop Dubricius and the Church? Who is on Guinevere's faction? Who are against her and Mordred? Guinevere locking herself in the Tower of London wont happen now and instead Guinevere could... y'know... "Hey, Mordred, do you want to attack Arthur now while his back is turned so we can go save Lancelot?" A Mordred-who-hates-Lancelot won't do that, but Guinevere is now free to do alot of things and may have more than just Mordred on her side.

For that matter, what about the Roman War? It still happens in Vulgate, albeit minimized.

During the actual Mordred revolt, does Guinevere try and contact Lancelot of the situation? To help Mordred or just fish her out? Is she instead coordinating and planning with Mordred? Does she have a plan to do something? Again, she's not holed up in the Tower of London anymore, so why wouldn't she be proactively doing something?

Does Guinevere even NEED to go to a nunnery? If she hates Arthur, that goes out the window. A Guinevere that's bitter about Arthur would never feel the need for redemption. She would, in her mind, be justified in her actions. In both Historia Regum Britanniae and Vulgate Cycle, the reason she goes to a nunnery was because she was afraid of being killed by Arthur (and Mordred in Vulgate). It's only in Malory, that Guinevere becoming a Nun is an act of repentance for her actions, out of guilt regarding the death of her beloved husband and the collapse of the kingdom. Earlier stories are about protecting herself from retaliation. In particular, Vulgate cycle has Gwen become a nun out of fear when Mordred's sons are hunting her down. In your hypothetical story, Melehan and his brother could be Guinevere's own sons (ala Alliterative Morte Arthur) and so she has nothing to fear unless your story has Mordred and Gwen's relationship breakdown badly or Gwen has been a bad mother. And all this is assuming a nunnery is her first option. Why doesn't Guinevere go back to Cameliard? Potentially, with her sons and the Benoic faction in tow?

Would your Guinevere have the motive to sieze power and reassert her rule? Her "redemption" may not even come in the form of going to a nunnery - she can just desire to salvage Logres and rule as a possible Dowager Queen, with the aid of Melehan and/or Lancelot. Then Constantine comes into the picture....

So as you can clearly see, your ask has a lot of things going around than just simply slapping together two different narratives and expecting a simple fit, especially in a modern standard that seeks to make sure there are no plot holes.

But to reiterate, you can have your hybrid Chronicle-Romance narrative with a sympathetic Gwen if you know where things lead to what, how to get there, what are the consequences of xyz change and how to accomodate for those consequences.

[apaladinsventure]

“But just as the rose is more lovely than any other flower when it opens fresh and new, so where liberality appears it surpasses all other virtues and increases five hundred times the qualities it finds in a worthy, upright man.”

Chrétien de Troyes, Arthurian Romances

#Art 🎨 by Julek Heller

[illustratus]

La Belle Dame sans Merci by Paul Julien Meylan

[gawrkin]

You're not alone. I also tend to think of Arthur as a Warlord fundamentally rather the Idealized Ruler figure hyped in Modern retellings. His real titles from the stories are "Dux Bellorum (War Duke)" "Red Ravager" "Ameraudur (Emperor/Imperator, a military title originally)" and "King of Adventure". Doesn't really paint a picture of a person who ruled peacefully and stably.

It helps that there are elements of his medieval characterization that do not jive with Modern sensibilities. For example, "The Conquest of Europe" - his invasions of Norway, Gaul, Denmark, etc. - in the Chronicle Tradition, as well as his Sexual escapades in the Romances.

It's also pointed out by Guinevere's Mom in Awntyrs off Arthure in Tarn Weddling that his primary failing is his covetousness.

In Le Morte D'Arthur, Malory justifies - and dismisses as "mischief" - Mordred's Revolt as a result of the Common people fed up with Arthur's rule as having been nothing but constant war and only found peace during Mordred's tenure. Which, ironically, perfectly describes the Arthur of the original non-romance narratives

When it comes down to it, King Arthur is really more alike his fellow "Nine Worthies" - Alexander, Julius Caesar, David and Charlemagne - than not.

EDIT: On the flip-side, Geoffrey of Monmouth does say in his Chronicle that there was 20 year period of relative peace inbetween the Battle of Badon Hill and the beginning of Arthur's Conquest. So there's that.

EDIT2: I HAD JUST REMEMBERED: There is a moment in Vulgate Cycle (at the beginning of Lancelot pt. II) where, during the War with Galehaut, a random hermit comes along to scold Arthur for his misfortunes and teach him how to be a christian good king to get back in God's good graces. lol

I believe whole heartedly that Arthur was not a good king, he was brought up to be a soldier, a knight, a second son. He probably would not have had a high quality education in administration, unlike Kay the firstborn, and so when he becomes King of Britain he would have been horribly unprepared. Was Arthur a great soldier? Yes. Was he a great king? Probably not.

[popsixesq]

Beinecke Rare Book & Manuscript Library

[blood-starved-beast]

Do you think Nemesis fantasizes about being the Knight to Melinoe's Princess and being quest-given to fight Chronos for her or something. Then she sees Melinoe out on the Run somewhere covered in blood and bruises and such and it fills her with unfathomable rage.

[sexy-sapphic-sorcerer]

Recall the tale of Icarus.

Choose to be Icarus.

Linda K. Hughes, Text and Subtext in "Merlin and the Gleam", p.166 /// Alfred Tennyson, Merlin and the Gleam /// BBC Merlin, The Last Dragonlord (2x13) /// Natalie Wee, Patroclus Dreaming /// Hozier, I, Carrion (Icarian) /// BBC Merlin, The Wicked Day (4x03) /// Hozier /// Natalie Wee /// BBC Merlin, The Disir (5x05) /// Alfred Tennyson /// Hozier /// BBC Merlin, The Diamond of the Day: Part 2 (5x13) /// Natalie Wee /// Alfred Tennyson, The Passing of Arthur /// BBC Merlin, The Diamond of the Day: Part 2 (5x13) /// Hozier /// Alfred Tennyson /// Natalie Wee

[nyxshadowhawk]

Chrétian de Troyes is legit the funniest medieval writer i’ve read so far??

Like. percival is all masquerading as a badass knight and then the moment he opens his mouth everyone can immediately tell that he’s an idiot. he won’t stop talking about his mom and it takes his mentor to give it to him straight to get him to stop. he’s called an idiot to his face.

And the whole time arthur is like, Kay i swear to god it’s ok for perceval to act like an idiot because no one knows who he is, but if you act like an idiot you make me look bad, so sit the fuck down.

LIKE??? THIS IS LITERATURE

[drrav3nb]

AVALON HIGH (2010)

[cain--abel]

Why marry Arthur Pendragon?

💍Gender selectable! (Marry Elaine Pendragon instead!)

🥲 Make your father proud!

💰 Get rich-quick-scheme!

🫅 Marry a fellow royal worthy of you!

🏰 Gain a barony!

🛏️ Optional affair!

💘 True love?

[sickfreaksirkay]

[aneurinallday]

Lancelot and the Lady of Shalott

Bold Sir Lancelot and the Lady of Shalott

(she dies from unrequited love for a hot guy she saw for 2 seconds in the distance and decided to chase down a river. girl same)

[sic-vita]

"the way to handle a woman; is to love her, simply love her, merely love her"

// proposition: one doesn't choose ... who they love

[illustratus]

Enid and Geraint by Rowland Wheelwright

[aroaessidhe]

2024 reads / storygraph

A Tempest of Tea

first in a YA fantasy duology

follows a young immigrant woman in a fantasy Victorian city who runs a tearoom that doubles as an illegal bloodhouse for vampires at night

when their business is threatened, she gets a chance to save it by teaming up with her best friend, a rich girl with a talent for forgery, a vampire artist, and a mysterious city guard to do a heist to infiltrate high society and collect a logbook that may reveal the extent of the corruption in the city

fantasy city with a masked ruler, arthurian elements, themes of colonialism