#apollo and parenting

[aeithalian]

As promised: Leto, Zeus, and parenting

I'M SORRY i know i said i'd get around to this two weeks ago but life got crazy but anyways HERE WE GO

I'm not the first to say this: we know virtually nothing about Leto and her parenting style. She makes a total of one appearance, is mentioned a couple times (mostly in the context of re-explaining Python's relevancy), and is only mentioned by another character besides Apollo once in the entire Riordanverse. For being the mother of one of the main characters, she is frustratingly underutilized as a character.

Yippee.

But, of course, I am going to dredge up every single reference to her parenting and personality as possible and determine just what kind of person and parent she is. Because here's my theory:

Apollo, while he is under expectations to be more like either Zeus or the other gods in terms of his parenting, probably takes more after Leto. So I think that if we can parse out Leto's personality and combine it with what we know of how Apollo parents, it gives us a good clue as to how Apollo and Artemis were raised.

First things first. Leto. Here's a list of things we know about her (aside from what happens in the myths):

Koios (her father) believes she would fight against Zeus due to the way he treated her after the twins were born (THoH)

Koios also considers her as one of the more peaceful Titans (THoH)

Leto seems to have an established life in a Florida condo (raising the question if she ever actually needed to reform or wasn't banished to Tartarus like the other Titans) (TDP)

Zeus and Leto used to have a much better relationship! (eg. the duet Apollo remembers them singing when he was a baby) (TDP)

Apollo writes a song for her every Mother's day (like the good momma's boy he is) (TDP)

Leto is willing to literally grovel in front of Zeus to save Apollo from his punishment (TDP)

Apollo (in a moment of mental haziness) can remember the impressions of Zeus and Artemis in his memory, but not Leto (TBM)

When calling to his godly family for help, Leto is the third (and last) person Apollo thinks of. Zeus is the first. (TON)

There's more to be said on the dichotomy between how Koios and Apollo perceive her, as well as Rick's nonexistent timeline skills, but that's pretty much all we know about her. That, and while she never had a traditional domain before the twins were born, she was later worshipped as a goddess of motherhood due to the large scope of influence her children had.

In summary, Leto:

Has a lot of reason to be angry with Zeus, but puts those feelings aside out of love for her children (and possibly because she remembers having that positive relationship with Zeus)

Is considered to be peaceful, but might not be (she might have condoned the murder of Niobe's children, among other stories). Regardless, she's considered gentle (by Hesiod, namely 👀 iykyk), and is one of the most celebrated mother figures in Ancient Greece aside from Demeter

Has a more distant relationship with her children for some reason (maybe the fact that she is a Titan and has lost favor with the gods, but based on how little Apollo mentions her compared to Zeus, he might not see her a lot)

We've never really met Leto, but based on this limited information, I think we can safely say that her personality probably includes traits such as gentleness, forgiveness, and responsiveness.

So, what does this tell us about how Apollo parents? Nothing, yet. So let's move on to Zeus.

NOBODY is surprised when I say this: Zeus sucks.

According to Apollo, Zeus very heavily utilizes what is called in psychology positive punishment, where a (typically unpleasant) stimulus is introduced in order to decrease a certain behavior that is seen by the punisher as undesirable. This is apparent every time Apollo talks about feeling the pain of Zeus' lightning bolts, or even when he compares Zeus to Nero and his Beast (the Beast being the stimulus that is introduced to keep Meg from rebelling).

Interestingly, the entirety of the ToA series and turning Apollo mortal could fall under the definition of negative punishment, where a stimulus (in this case, Apollo's godhood) is removed to decrease an undesirable behavior. However, turning Apollo mortal is still an introduction of a stimulus: pain.

See the similarities? Tangent aside, this is how Zeus parents. Restriction, then giving pain when the rules are broken, which then creates fear around those restrictions.

Let's give these firm definitions. Traditional psychology gives us four main parenting styles built around variances in how responsive and demanding a parent is. Take the image below:

Zeus is the easy one here: Authoritarian. I feel like we don't even need to discuss any further, he's quite literally a textbook definition. As king of the gods, he can't be responsive to everyone, but must demand much from his all-powerful subjects. The problem is that it bleeds into his parenting too much. He's ruling his children.

Leto is harder. Mostly because we just don't know enough about her, but I like to think she's got a higher level of responsiveness. Those types of parents are usually warmer, which goes along with Apollo's account of her and what we know from the myths about her gentle demeanor. So that narrows it down a bit, but her level of demandingness is harder to pin down. That's the issue when your children are immortal - you don't demand much from a child who is more powerful than you and matures fully within a week. I think Leto may lie somewhere in the middle of authoritative and permissive, but let's give her the benefit of the doubt. If she's the Titaness of motherhood, let's assume she's a great mom and say she's Authoritative.

Don't forget those, we'll come back to that.

The thing about parenting is that it's passed down from generations. We raise our children the way our parents raised us. That's why we call them "cycles" of abuse - because it keeps happening. That being said, I'm fairly confident that Apollo takes after Leto when it comes to parenting, because we see that he's already broken the cycle - even before we spent five books with Apollo, he's never outright harmed one of his own children the way we know Zeus did to him. So if he's not following Zeus' example, he's probably mimicking Leto's. Which then means he probably takes after her personality a bit, too, which was characterized by being gentle, forgiving, and responsive.

I don't know about you, but feels just like the Apollo we know.

Going back to the four parenting styles, you might be ready to call Apollo the Authoritative parent because it's the same as Leto's and call it a day. That's the point I was making, no? Wrong!

Yes, the ideal Apollo would be Authoritative. But, you know, we see him interact with his children, and he's just... not? What I think is that Apollo has gone through (or will go through) all four.

Authoritarian - This would be the first one he tries, because he might feel like he has to be like Zeus. There's one example of this with Koronis (yes, not really an example of parenting, but personality-wise, it's very Zeus-y), where he has Artemis kill her as a punishment for cheating. The story continues, blah blah blah, he fails to heal her but saves Asclepius by performing the first C-section. But I think that this is the moment where he choses to not be that kind of father. He gives Asclepius to Chiron as one of his first students, and from what we know of Apollo and Asclepius' relationship, it's good! Asclepius calls him "Dad" in BoO and wishes him the best - but it's still distant, in a sense. The apple fell pretty far from the tree, because acting like that, especially with the inner knowledge we have of Apollo from five books of content, never indicates Apollo being demanding and simultaneously lacking in any kind of responsiveness. So, in conclusion, Apollo has never consistently been Authoritarian, and being as such is in direct contradiction to his personality.

Uninvolved - This is what the gods (aside from Zeus, as king) are supposed to be, especially with their mortal children. If Apollo cannot be like his father, then he might as well try and be like all the other gods: being neither demanding nor responsive. We get hints of this with the Trophonius story - Trophonius' greed becomes his downfall, and Apollo does not intervene when called upon. Even without knowing what their relationship looked like before Agamethus died, it's pretty obvious that Apollo was absent on most accounts. We also see this example with other gods and their children - Poseidon and Percy, for one. Poseidon is never there, because this is what is expected and enforced by Zeus. Zeus, also, skews towards being Uninvolved with his mortal children - Jason met him once, people. But, again, this is pretty unlike Apollo to be able to maintain - he's simply too naturally responsive and empathetic to conform to this standard, and he confesses to the audience that he feels guilt around Trophonius' fate, indicating that being an Uninvolved parent was not something he found comfort and ease in.

Permissive - I believe that Apollo is most comfortable as a Permissive parent. But this goes along with something that I've always believed: Apollo doesn't necessarily parent his kids. I don't think many gods do (this goes along with another meta I want to do on godly maturity and how it relates to parenting, but I digress). Apollo is lacking in being demanding enough to properly parent his kids, but he makes up for it in overwhelming responsiveness. We know he's highly aware of other's needs, we see this a lot with his relationship with Meg, and this is something that he finds easy. He's sensitive and empathetic towards everyone, especially his own children, and (in the later books) has a great sense of what to say and when in order to get people to open up. But that lack of demanding is still there, and I think this is interesting for several reasons. It makes me wonder if Apollo does not demand from his children because he feels like he has not yet earned the right to. If it were me, and I had the face and body of a person the same age as my children, I would find it difficult to be the more mature person, too. But even at the end of the series, it doesn't look like he's making any moves towards being more demanding: when Rachel gives the prophecy to Will and Nico, he steps back into the Permissive parent role and indulges Will in what ends up being an incredibly dangerous quest to Tartarus (side note: this is one of the several reasons I found TSatS disappointing, because there are so many stones left unturned with how the premise could have allowed both Apollo and Will to realize that Apollo being a Permissive parent is not what Will needs). Yes, Permissive parents aren't bad parents, but especially with demigod kids who lack in proper parental figures that aren't Chiron, they might not necessarily be good parents either.

Authoritative - This is what Apollo has the potential to become, but it's going to take a huge wakeup call. The entirety of the ToA series is about Apollo learning that the way the gods have been doing things is not something he has to adhere to, and that he's allowed to utilize his natural instincts from Leto to be responsive. But being demanding is a whole new can of worms: Zeus is the only one who seems to be allowed to be demanding, but he does it without the responsiveness that makes it healthy. I think Apollo has yet to learn this - that you can demand from your kids and still be a good parent.

I wish there was more I could add. Artemis is a whole new rabbit hole that I'd love to go down, but alas, we know even less about her parenting styles because, well, she doesn't really have kids. Oops.

Alas, that's all I've got. The promised meta about Hermes and Apollo's relationship is coming soon!

Here's a masterlist of my other metas

[tfwlawyers]

in honor of all the times I still get 99+ notifs in like an hour

[moominvalley-state-of-mind]

'let them say fuck' this 'let them swear' that

let them cry

let them sob in the shower

let them soak their friend's sleeve with tears

let them wake up with red eyes

let them laugh cry with their friends over a forgotten inside joke

let them cry while kissing their partner, finally finished with whatever hell they were going through

[ego-sum-deus-fractus]

There's a high chance that Naomi Solace is not much of an active parent but some of y'all are not ready for that conversation.

It would also explain why he's not mad at Apollo when he is turned mortal despite him being quite the absent parent.

And also as to why he has a big ass tattoo at the age of 15.

[elementalwriter67]

So fun fact about me that you all may not know, but may suspect given my recent reblogs, but I was a Percy Jackson kid growing up. I found the book series in elementary school, fell in love with it and greek mythology in general. The reason I say this is because after having listened to the Epic the Musical (on repeat) I now have a personal headcannon that the Apollo cabin in PJO has it down bad for Epic the Musical and are also listening to it on repeat using the cabin stereo system.

Like it started out small with some of them finding it when the first saga was released and then it snowballed from there until the entire cabin was listening to it by the time the vengeance saga came around. And I can guarantee you that in my headcannon when the Ithaca Saga came out they used the Hermes cabin to get access to wifi so they could watch the livestream premiere. They all cried during it. The Hermes kids had no idea what was going on or why the entire Apollo cabin were having a fucking break down but they were rolling with it.

I also headcannon that since they started listening to it on repeat they have begun singing different songs from the different sagas during campfire night. Some of their offerings at dinner now go to Jorge even though he's not a god but Apollo allows it because he's also started listening to the musical because literally all his kids are obsessed with it and he's got to admit that it's a banger. The Apollo kids have now also started saying things like; "Odysseus would never," when they hear the tea coming from the Aphrodite cabin. They also say "guys that's not very open arms of you."

They've also unanimously created a code phrase that is used both on and off the battlefield and during capture the flag. The code phrase? 600 strike! Which triggers the Apollo cabin like sleeper agents to all close ranks and attack the attacker of who ever called out 600 strike. This has been used in capture the flag before to the utter confusion of both teams but mainly of Percy who was the one it was called on and could not understand why the entirety of the Apollo cabin was now coming at him like he had broken one of their instruments again.

Apollo absolutely, on more than one occasion, come down from olympus while his kids are listening to Epic during the "I can't help but wonder" song just to act out the scene where Odysseus goes "Son, I'm finally home" to have all of his kids there at the time tackle him to the ground. Chiron was concerned when this first happened wondering who pissed who off but after the tenth time that month he's over it and is just letting them do their thing. It's safer that way.

[literallyjusttoa]

I've had designs for all the other Olympian gods since forever, but I always get distracted or frustrated and can never finish drawing all of them as a group. Today I decided to just sketch em out and not focus too hard on the details, and I finally did all of them in one go! Except for Apollo but like, I'm sure y'all know what my Apollo desgin looks like at this point lol.

[egret-orchids]

in all honesty there's something vaguely transboy about lester whatever-the-fuck-his-last-name-is to me but also that would be hilarious considering apollo is. apollo.

[thehyacinthprophecy]

Actually now that I think about it, do you guys think Naomi Solace was like, deeply and openly disappointed that Will couldn't sing and had very little musical talent? Like "I'm your mother and your father was apollo and all you can do is whistle?" Haha but anyway.

[merethessc]

these are just for my own amusement, really

[bugwolfsstuff]

The line

'the hands that cradled your face and tilted it upwards to kiss your forehead are soaked in unfathomable quantities of blood'

'but they still cradled me yes?'

Could work for any demigod that has a good relationship with their godly parent or Luke and Annabeth but nah we aint gonna talk about that

[gingermintpepper]

“Your hair’s gotten longer.” 

It’s conscious effort that keeps him from tucking the strands behind his ear, from taking the knife at his hip and shearing it all off. He keeps his stance focused, attentive, there’s little else he can do when he’s taken so completely after his mother when it comes to his hair. His father scratches his chin, the clouds of his beard snaking about his finger like mist parting for mountain-peaks. Ares’ chin is still child-smooth. He can feel the tickle of his over-long fringe against his soft jaw. There’s no heart in his chest, but still he feels as though a pulse is lodged in his throat. 

Father sighs, put-upon, disappointed, and Ares feels a slight tremor start in his calves from holding himself so tense. “Well done, Ares. Go clean yourself up and get some rest. Phoebus will want to look you over later.” 

He should be ecstatic to be praised by his father. Over-the-moon with joy. There should be pride emanating from every pore of his body, the blood on his skin should be sweeter than ambrosia. 

Instead, he bows, manages a soft ‘thank you, Father’ around the lump in his throat and immediately flees the room. A mild ‘make sure to trim your hair’ hits the back of his head like a spear through the skull. He almost wishes the great door had slammed on his foot so he would have reason to feel this horrid in his retreat.  

Phoebus Apollo is waiting for him in his infirmary. 

He’s gilded as ever, gold from crown to heel. Perfect like the statues they carve of him in his temples. He has a smile for Ares when he sees him, a crinkle at the edges of his pretty eyes from the weight of his joy. Ares is waiting to see the crack in the marble, to see if that’s the chip that’ll reveal his fangs.

“Brother,” he greets, and his voice is warm - like the arms that embrace him, his voice is so warm, “Welcome back. I’ve heard you’ve done well.”  

There’s a tremble in Ares’ fingers he hadn’t noticed before. Strain from carrying his sword for so many days, a throb from wounds he hadn’t noticed he’d accrued. “Heard? There’s already gossip?” 

Phoebus blinks, disarming, demure, coquettish, “But of course,” and Phoebus’ voice is honey to Ares’ gravel, the juxtaposition is grating on his skin, “It’s Olympus. The gossip began long before you set your course.” Those warm hands lead him further into the room, bodily sits him on the chaise, pulls his helmet from his head. It’s all one, unbroken motion, “It’s summer alas, so I could not watch your war myself, but I hear it was quite the decisive victory.” 

A thousand thoughts run on horseback through his mind then. 

Did Father overhear some terrible slander that pre-emptively disappointed him? Was Ares’ victory merely a rumour, a bet his father hadn’t bothered to take? Was the gossip more enticing than the stark truth? That Ares wasn’t some child toddling about in the shadow of his sister, that his sword and spear weren’t merely for show - he’d think such a thing would warrant celebration. Not -

“Oh my,” Phoebus is in front of him, pleasant warmth more sticky heat with how close he’s pressed himself into Ares’ space. From this angle, Ares can see the multi-coloured flecks of his eyes, like shards of golden glass suspended in ichor. From this angle, with his hand so gently holding his hair, were Ares to blink too hard, he’d swear Phoebus looked just like his mother. “Your hair’s grown long again.” 

He pushes Phoebus off with such force that he bangs into the wall. It’s Phoebus, it won’t make even the impression of a scratch on him, but Ares wishes it would. Wishes he’d hit his shoulder or crack his neck or hit his head just hard enough for all that perfect, gilded gold to bleed. 

“I’m only here for you to heal me,” the tremble in his hand extends to his shoulder now. He flexes and unflexes his palm. Gods what he would give to just have a sword - “Don’t waste time with the pleasant-work.” 

Phoebus huffs, adjusts the fit of his himation, “...Only because we’re meant to be celebrating your victory.” He crosses the room in two great strides, his hair a swirling tempest behind him as he gathers his poultices and wraps. “The only reason I’ll not throw you from the window is because we are meant to be celebrating your victory.”  

There’s not enough acid in his tone for this to truly be a fight. Ares’ jaw clenches, he bites out a terse, “How benevolent.” 

“Aren’t I?” He’s got nectar and his sutures in hand, that focused look falling upon his face when he switches from overbearing busybody to Paeon of the Gods. “Now strip unfaltering Ares, let us see the measure of damage done to your indomitable flesh.” 

(Somewhere between the fifth set of stitches and the gentle frown that crosses Phoebus’ face when he notices the persistent tremble in his fingers, Ares pins his eyes to the far wall and asks, “What does it mean when Father says ‘well done’?” 

Any other sibling would mock before they gave a true response. Any other sibling would laugh and dismiss it, would say that praise is praise and any lingering ill feeling is just the worst of the war still fogging his mind. Phoebus does not answer immediately. He doesn’t make a single sound. The question settles like fetid water between them, unignorable, the scent right there on the tip of the tongue yet firmly unacknowledged. Ares closes his eyes and tries again to settle his squirming so he does not interfere with Phoebus’ work.  The metallic snip of scissors cutting thread breaks the silence. Phoebus bids him to sit up and slides his warm palms up his back until his fingers tangle gently in the ends of his hair. He twists the dark red strands until he’s gathered it all into a neat handful, holding it loosely as he switches his scissors for his shearing blade. “You should know it was not praise,” Phoebus says softly. The first of Ares cut hairs fall like viscera from his head. Phoebus treats each cutting with the sacredness of a blood-sacrifice. If he focused on the moment of tension right before the blade cuts though, Ares thinks he can imagine the agony of his sister’s sacred birth. “It is acknowledgement. Father thinks you’ve done well so he says ‘well done’.”

Gently, Phoebus releases him. Ruffles his head so all the extra hairs fall like red rain to the floor. Ares runs his fingers through the ends now curling against his ear. “Has he ever told you ‘well done’?” 

A laugh, warm and gilded, “No, and it would not make you feel better if he had.” 

Ares swallows down a thousand different questions. Phoebus wouldn’t answer them, he’s infuriating like that. Instead, he clenches his teeth, the phantom of Father’s dizzying tangle of grey cloud-hairs persistent in the corner of his eyes. “Cut it shorter.”

Phoebus doesn’t protest. He never seems to say a word when it really matters.)

[the-immortal-restless]

I have a cute headcanon/au that in certain hidden places on FFM, there are murals of Macaque. They are old and some of them aren’t finished.

Here’s where the angst is. (I’m writing this in more of a story way that in first person)

When Wukong started painting his shadows face, it was massive and heavily detailed, all from memory. It was a portrait he’d made in the deepest throes of grief.

He’d killed him not long ago… he’d killed His Moon… what was he thinking? Why could he hold back? What was wrong with him that he killed the only other person who could understand him?

He’d kept painting. Soon enough grief turned into frantic, he spent years on them, perfecting everything. He even placed candles and incense around them as if it was an altar to his precious moon.

Though he rarely remembered where, they were always hidden. Hidden from the world so that no one would take the last thing he had to remember his beloved by.

Until he realized something… He dropped the paintbrush in his hands in horror, he’d could believe it.

He didn’t remember, even just for a moment. He couldn’t remember what color his lovers ears were. His beautiful Moon’s most precious feature.

He began painting more frantically, worried he’d soon forget everything detail he’d once memorized. He tried to retrace his steps, find the other paintings, but Wukong had terribly best himself, not even he could find them. Soon enough, the worst came.

He couldn’t remember his lovers ears, his eyes, his laugh, or even his smile. He’d cried for weeks. He couldn’t remember. Why couldn’t he remember…?

Soon enough every being that occupied Flower Fruit Mountain told the others of their species about the Kingly Sun and his Warring Moon.

How the Sun had killed his lover by mistake, how the Sun had painted fantastic painting and built altars to beckon his Treasured Moon home. How the Sun had played in the fields and forests with his Moon in years past, how he’d come home arms filled with gifts for the Moon to be lavished in, how it ended with one blow.

How the Sun wept when his lover left his mind. They called it the Wailing Silence, when the only thing that ever came from the’s home was the sound of a mourning wail, when nothing and no one could cheer the Sun.

Eventually the Sun would break from his immobile grief. There was a heaviness to him but he learned to carry his unending grief and sorrow with a smile.

But then, centuries later, the stories twisted.

Soon, inhabitants of the mountain began to tell of how the Moon watched the Sun from the depths of his shadowy realm, from between trees and behind rocks. The Moon had risen, many tried to show the Moon to his altars, believing him a god or spirit brought on by the Suns devotion. But the Moon stayed stoic and ignored them, whether he understood them or not, was a mystery to them.

Eventually a Star appeared.

He looked strange, some of the onlookers would say, others saw him wielding the Sun’s Gold-Banded Staff and wondered if he was the Moon and Suns kin, after all the Sun had burst from a rock, who truly knew.

The Star had brought the Sun past the horizon, and the Star had met the Moon and brought him out of the shadows. Eventually both warmed to his light and taught him what they know.

And soon, the Star shined like they did.

[magic-metamato]

PLEASE CAPCOM, GIVE THE GAVIN’S A FLESHED OUT BACKSTORY 🙏🙏🙏🙏

Anyways, here are my Gavin parents interpretation (also some random headcannons about them under the cut) :)

-Did I steal my friend’s headcannon that Klavier is Filipino? Yes, absolutely. Anyways-

-Also, yes, I am one of those people that thinks Kristoph bleaches his hair. I think he was jealous of Klavier’s hair color because it’s closer to their father’s hair.

-Klavier’s birth name is “Konrad Klavier Gavin Jr.” making his father Konrad Senior. His mother chose his middle name (she had a very loose understanding of the German language and didn’t know that Klavier meant piano). Everyone called him Klavier in his youth as to not mix him and his father up, but he ended up liking it better than Konrad and just decided to go by his middle name.

-they grew up in America, but in a very secluded community of German immigrants. Klavier and Kristoph were homeschooled and spoke German at home (and a little Tagalog thanks to their mother) resulting in Klavier’s weird accent.

[brodorokihousuke]

Kind of a minor headcanon I have is that, on occasion, Apollo and Clay would go out for drinks/food and karaoke... more likely on the latter's suggestion.

While he continuously upheld the fact that he was just doing it to have fun with his friend and really didn't care for singing at all, Apollo... was weirdly good at it. Clay, every single time without fail, told him that he needed to try to make a career out of it ("If that Gavin guy can do both music and law, so can you!", often proclaimed the soon-to-be astronaut).

I mean, being that good without much practice, it had to be genetic, right? haha.

[gotstabbedbyapen]

In the next saga (Wisdom saga), we will see more gods in Gods Game. I demand we have a Shenanigans Series with Jay and Apollo. God of music and his promising student!

Imagine Apollo being Jay's fairy godfather, helping him during his time in medic school and later support him in writing Epic.

Jorge: Apollo, I don't think I wanna be a doctor anymore. It just doesn't feel right for me.

Apollo: Well, what do you want to do then?

Jorge: I think I like writing songs more.

Apollo: *throws medic book out of the window and pulls out his lyre* Well, wouldn't you know-

[ashoss]

Pjo au where all the kids are demigods and Bruce is just so tired of the monsters that come to the manor

asjkh clearsighted/legacy bruce with a bunch of shithead little demigods oml

the manor would 100% be stocked up on nectar and ambrosia and also would be a safeplace for other demigods around gotham. there are so many celestial bronze and imperial gold weapons in the cave and some hidden around the manor itself (u never know)