#anti-rhaegar

[ichooseviolence]

"The Red Keep was the safest place for Elia during the battle!" Except it wasn't. It should have been, but it wasn't. Tywin wasn't the only threat to Elia's life. Aerys held her and her children as hostages and was 100% willing to execute any of them if he felt that her family stepped out of line.

Elia was surrounded by enemies while her husband was away, and Dorne would have been the safest place for her. But if Elia went to Dorne with her children, then that means her family is free to take up arms against the T@rgaryens. So, who decided Elia should remain in Dragonstone? Was it Elia or Rh@egar? No way Elia would feel comfortable being so close to Aerys without her husband there. The more I think about this, the more ominous and disgusting I find it to be.

[hollowwhisperings]

Ned Stark's Rebellion: the better name for the uprising against Aerys II & Rhaegar Targaryen.

While the histories & adaptive works of ASOIAF name the events of ? to ? AC as being "Robert's Rebellion", that name is misleading. The uprising now known as "Robert's Rebellion" was, more truthfully, NED STARK'S Rebellion.

It was young Eddard Stark whose father & oldest brother were murdered by their king; Ned whose sister was kidnapped (Lyanna at 15 would still be considered underage, by the majority of Westeros); it was the Lords Paramount SUPPORTING NED whose heads were called for from King Aerys II. It was Ned who first called his banners, Ned's grievances that were rallied to, Ned's cause that people fought & died for. The rebellion was never about Robert Baratheon being mad about getting ditched by his [fiancee], nor his being "kinglier" than the options of Aerys II or Rhaegar.

Robert's grievance of his "beloved" betrothed getting Disappeared by the crown prince - dude met Lyanna, like, once? on record? his hype for the marriage seemed more about "being brothers with Ned" (whom he fostered with in the Vale) than about Lyanna herself (who grew up with Benjen in Winterfell) though Robert definitely fixated on the idea of her.

Robert is only named in the Rebellion because he ended up King. Robert only ended up King because NED never wanted the throne. Robert was crowned by DEFAULT.

he was young and charismatic where Hoster Tully & Jon Arryn were not;

he had more immediate royal heritage via a Targaryen grandmother (whilst Ned & Jon Arryn's kingship was of the North/Vale specifically, not Westeros as a "united" realm; Hoster's "kingship" over the Riverlands was due to House Tully swearing fealty to the Targaryen Conquerors in the stead of the wiped-out Mudd Kings);

Robert had brothers ("heirs") to rule the Stormlands (Renly) & Dragonstone (Stannis) while he sat the Throne: Jaime blue-screened after executing Aerys, spending his time on the pointy chair dissociating & panicking over who to give it to; Hoster's only son was still a kid; Jon Arryn had no family save his new wife & his foster-sons; Ned had Benjen (the Stark in Winterfell) and baby Robb. Ned was pardoned from kingly duties due to the throne room very probably still smelling of Roast Stark.

Tywin killed Elia & her kids, removing the Dornish Claim (& the sole reasons for Dorne's not joining the Rebellion officially);

The Reach were Targaryen Loyalists & losers of the war;

nobody wanted Balon Greyjoy in charge.

History was very much Written By The Victors, in the case of this civil war. At the time, everyone was wholly aware that Ned's Cause was Just & that Aerys II was a ticking timebomb. Dorne's hands were tied by geography (the Reach, on Team Targaryen, was between them and the Crownlands) and their princess + tiny children were hostages (Jaime was also a political hostage, keeping the Westerlands "loyal").

Yet, 16 years later, the rebellion is sung of & taught in an almost romantic fashion: "King Robert avenging his lost love!", "thousands died for a frigid woman", "Aerys did nothing wrong, actually", etc.

The sheer disconnect in opinion on such a recent historical evident, between the generation who lived it & those born during/after... it seems very deliberate. The Reach, in/famous Targaryen Loyalists, had a lot of backpedalling to do & made light of the King they'd fought for whilst ensuring their Maesters taught the history their NEW king liked better.

Ned retired quietly after the Rebellion, finally having time to mourn & having 2 babies to raise. That one of these babies had a bounty on its head only kept the Quiet Wolf quieter: the North keeps to itself and Ned's silence on the subject was respected/followed accordingly.

I very much wonder how the Rebellion was taught differently in the different parts of Westeros: Dorne remembers a beloved & lost Princess, the brutal murders of three innocents by Lord Lannister; The North recalls the silence of its lord, his awkwardly bringing a baby Stark home with him; the Red Keep fixated on Jaime's kingslaying and Robert's wartime heroics (any smallfolk staff who survived Aerys would have died or fled during The Sack, not sticking around lest Tywin kill them too).

The Adaption's Take on the Rebellion read like Anti-Baratheon, pro-Rhaegar Propoganda. Nevermind Elia & her children, nevermind Grandpa Rickard or Uncle Brandon.

Fandom loves to solve love triangles with poly but, in this case... Elia would DEFINITELY have seen Lyanna as being a child.

Elia was 3 years older than Rhaegar and 10 years older than Lyanna, being about 26/27 during the war. While Lyanna is confirmed as being 16 ar her death, the timing of her kidnapping & the playout of R+L=J... puts her as being 14/15 when first abducted. By Westerosi standards (16 for girls), and almost certainly by Dornish standards (plausibly a universal 18), Lyanna was Underage.

Age gaps aside, Elia was a princess twice over & raised with politics. Rhaegar's abducting Lyanna, without the leave of her legal guardian (her father, Lord Rickard) and in spite of Lyanna's being betrothed to a Lord Paramount (Robert Baratheon)? That is political unalivement. Any & all hopes the Lords Paramount held of Rhaegar's quietly retiring his father & being a decent king, as judged by his behavious thus far were immediately made moot.

(It should be noted that it is entirely plausible that, when Rhaegar slighted his wife at Harrenhal, Elia was PREGNANT: this makes the slight even worse, given that Rhaegar "repaid" Elia's nearly dying to "give him a son" by abandoning her (and their children). To his paranoid father. Who was regularly having people tortured and murdered, from the lowest of servants to the highest lords of the realm. So Rhaegar could kidnap himself a Northern Womb. For a vague prophecy he read in a book & his interpreting it to mean he needed 3 Targaryen children. Which he already had. Rhaenys, Aegon and HIS KID BROTHER VISERYS.)

ahem, my Strongly Worded Opinions on Prince Rhaegar aside, this has been a Commentary on the War of the Usurper & the poor logic of those pursuing prophecy.

(i'm pretty sure the realm as a whole would be safer & better equipped for a Long Winter if they hadn't, say, a civil war. which killed &/or orphaned a generation who were thusly less-prepared for rule & less able to prepare THEIR heirs before THEY were killed in ANOTHER civil war.)

[forgotten-fossilised]

oh thank god for The Prophecy! without it I would've thought Rhaenys (and later on other tb dragonriders) burning countless people was bad. but it's not just for the crown, it's actually for the good of the realm! why?? because hundred years ago the colonizer who had also burned and killed people had that dream, so now Rhaenyra has the divine right to do the same (but hmm why her and not any other Targ? oh right bc her daddy said so without any further explanation. makes sense.)

so, the moral of the story is: war is bad, except when its fought by a Targaryen motivated by some bs prophecy, got it. the other is - team green propaganda bad, team black propaganda good

[sansacherie]

another reason why I detest the ned-viserys "comparisons" is that ned stark literally lost his almost entire family at the age of nineteen as a result of a predator and his "prophecies".

[kass-of-the-midlands]

We gloss over Elia being bedridden for six months, half a year after birthing Rhaenys far, far too easily imo. Rhaegar was actually fucking diabolical for having sex with her again, let alone Elia giving birth just a year after this

[atopvisenyashill]

i do understand that lyanna having a bastard makes every “but what if it wasn’t a love story” theory kinda wild but the idea that they were in love makes rhaegar’s “let’s hide out in dorne until you give birth” plan JUST AS WILD. if they were in love, why does he effectively abandon her without any sort of medical help in the tower?? if they were in love why does he sneak off with her?? if they were in love, why did he do NOTHING to ensure some sort of safety and status for her at court??

if lyanna’s problem with robert was his bastards, why is SHE having someone’s bastard? if they got valyrian married, again why are they HIDING OUT, why did he ABDUCT HER, why was it so important that she spent a year isolated in a tower with no family, no support, no midwives or maesters around??

the entire tower of joy plot is WEIRD and NONSENSICAL EVEN MORE if they were in love!!!!!

[agentrouka-blog]

Rhaegar: I need THREE heads of the dragon. THREE Valyrian children of the line of Aerys and Rhaella. But my wife must never conceive again or she will die. I have only two children. WHAT CAN I DO!!!

Viserys: *raises hand*

Rhaegar: Nah, not that one. Kidnapping a teenaged girl and starting a war that ends my entire dynasty it is. I am very smart.

[rynnthefangirl]

I love so much the concept of the dragons being tied to Targaryen women and their fertility. It plays so poignantly into the history of House Targaryen in Westeros. The Targaryens come to Westeros, and in an attempt to consolidate their power, they assimilate into the oppressive social structures of Westeros, sacrificing and devaluing their women to do so. Rhaena, Aerea, Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, Daena, Naerys, Rhaella, and so many more — crushed under the heels of their brothers and fathers and uncles in order to appease the lords of the realm. And in doing so, the Targaryens ironically kill their true source of power. Dragon egg production is high before Dance, as Syrax and her rider Rhaenrya’s fertility flourishes as one. Then Rhaenyra is usurped and killed, and suddenly, no eggs can hatch. It speaks to the general devaluing of women’s labor and contributions, not just in House Targaryen, but in broader Westeros and our own world. It is not the fighting or the conquering or the crown or the Sword or the Iron Throne that forms the weight bearing beams of the House of the Dragon. It is female fertility, labor, childbirth, motherhood. The latter had been exploited for the sake of the former for 300 years, chipping away at that load bearing beam until the House collapses around them, dragons and crowns and thrones and men and women alike.

And the one to bring it all back? A girl. Overlooked and underestimated, her value tied solely to the son she could bear or the army she can be sold to buy. But the true power is intrinsic to her. All the men think themselves the great saviors of their house and their world— with women like Lyanna Stark and Elia Martell being sacrificed at the altar of Targaryen men’s destiny— but it is Daenerys Stormborn, Daughter of Dragons, Bride of Dragons, Mother of Dragons, who succeeds where they all failed.

[catofoldstones]

Idk which 16 year old needs to hear this but that 24 year old with a family is not into you. He’s just convinced that his child is the prince that was promised in an ancient, carried-down prophecy and only wants this child through you.

[amaltheas-garden]

Jon and Sansa will bring the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna full circle:

We have very few details on the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but what we do know is Lyanna was in an unwanted betrothal to Robert at the time she disappeared with Rhaegar. Whether she went willingly or not is up to speculation. Aside from Robert, most accounts agree that Rhaegar embodied the fairy tale prince-like character (prior to the war). Lyanna wept at the beauty of his music, and was crowned his queen of love and beauty before leaving her family forever. Her story ends alone in Dorne, dying in her bed of blood, abandoned by the man she thought would save her, begging to go home.

It's easy to see then, the parallels between Lyanna's ill-fated romance and the romantic dreams of her niece, Sansa Stark. Although the two share few similarities in personality and hobbies, both became enamored by princes who hide their darker nature, and lured them away from the safety of their homeland, before going to war with their families. However, Lyanna's story ended far from the North, dying in childbirth, whereas Sansa has escaped that fate (even more interesting considering Lyanna's book storyline is a near one to one of Sansa's in the original outline). And, if we recall the very beginning of A Game of Thrones, Robert proposes to Ned that they wed Joffrey to Sansa, joining their houses as he and Lyanna might have. There is a conscious effort on Robert's part to set the past right through the relationships of their children. So right from the jump Sansa is cast as the Lyanna stand in, though she too escapes her "Baratheon" betrothal, and is on course to run straight into Rhaegar's son (as per the girl in grey theory).

So where does Jon lie in all this? If we take the girl in grey prophecy to be about Sansa, we know the two will meet sometime in the near future. Sansa has already become disillusioned of her chivalric ideals of love and knighthood (that's not to say she doesn't believe in heroes and honorable knights, just that she's far more skeptical of surface appearance), and yet, it will be her bastard brother who will embody the traits of the hero Sansa has been searching for. Rhaegar appeared as the perfect prince, yet was the one to kill Jon's mother, and Sansa, in a similar situation, is seduced by the charm and beauty of Prince Joffrey, only to be exposed to his vicious cruelty, narrowly escaping his family (even more interesting to consider Lyanna, had she survived, would not have been Queen, as Elia was still his lawful wife, and would be considered a mistress to the King as there was no chance of her escaping Rhaegar now that she carried his child, similar to Joffrey marrying Margaery, while threatening to make Sansa his mistress). Jon on the other hand is the brooding, solemn, plain-featured bastard, sharing no traditional qualities with that of the typical hero. That is to say, he's about as far from Rhaegar as you could get. And yet, it is Jon who commits himself to defending and protecting those who cannot (Sam, the wildlings, Alys Karstark) because that's who he is. No songs are sung for the men of the Nights Watch, he doesn't gain anything by protecting those others might deem weak, unworthy, or exploitable, but he does it anyway. Jon does not look nor act the part, but the strength of his moral character is what distinguishes him as the unconventional hero of the story.

I would also draw a comparison between the legend of Azor Ahai sacrificing his wife Nissa Nissa and Rhaegar's "sacrifice" of Lyanna, to bring about the third head of the dragon he thought necessary to save the world. After reading @/stormcloudrising's phenomenal metas on Sansa's connection to Nissa Nissa/the Amethyst Empress, I believe the idea of sacrifice will appear again in relation to Jon's character arc. Many in the fandom have speculated that AA/NN and the Bloodstone Emperor/Amethyst Empress are one and the same, the former featuring the sacrifice of a wife, the latter a usurpation of a sister. Sansa already occupies the (false) position as Jon's sister, while Jon has refused to usurp her rights as heir to Winterfell. However, with Jon's parentage reveal, the opportunity of a Jon/Sansa romance becomes possible, potentially elevating her to the status of love interest. And, if we're going with the NN/AE are the same theory, it would mean she occupied the role of both sister and wife. As for Rhaegar, his prophecy obsession is what led to him endangering Lyanna, placing his need for the third dragon above her own safety, ultimately killing her. Jon spends a good chunk of ADwD with Stannis, a claimant to the title of AA/the Prince that was Promised, who similarly struggles with the question of sacrificing one life to save the world, "What is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?” (ASoS) To which we already know the answer, Everything. Stannis, like Rhaegar, will fail the moment he sacrifices Shireen to fulfill his "greater purpose". Daenerys is also a claimant to the title, and we will likely see a contrast between how she and Jon approach being Rhaegar's heirs and inheritors of the prophecy. Stannis will lose everything after Shireen's death, the same as Rhaegar when he left Lyanna to die, condemning House Targaryen to death in the ensuing war. Jon will likely face a similar decision of sacrifice upon discovering he could be the subject of prophecy that consumed his father and once honorable king. And just as he refused to usurp Sansa's claim, he will reject the sacrifice of a loved one (lover perhaps?) as prerequisite to fulfilling his role as AA/TPtwP.

Jon's character always comes back to his identity as a Stark. Discovering his true parentage will undoubtedly be a source of inner conflict, culminating in his decision between Stark and Targaryen (spoiler: its Stark). It's a classic case of sins of the father, and how Jon asserts himself as an individual outside of his father's tainted legacy. Jon being the hero to Sansa and helping her return home would effectively resolve the generational conflict caused by Rhaegar's "kidnapping" of Lyanna away from the North. Rhaegar caused immense amounts of pain to the Stark family through his one act of selfish cruelty, which Jon will rectify through one of loyalty and selflessness. And narratively, Lyanna's son being the one to save her niece and return her to Winterfell would just be so chef's kiss.

[sunspearesque]

i can't even begin to understand the thought process of rhaegar and his utterly absurd decision to take the most powerful kingsguards with him to either fight or to guard his 15-year-old mistress/abductee (?) and their babe with questionable legitimacy while leaving behind his wife and his two children (one of them is his fucking heir) to be guarded by who exactly? 16-year-old jaime lannister? (who was “guarding” the king that kept him “hostage”)

rhaegar knew damn well his father is going even more insane after a war he started by his utter stupidity and selfishness and they won’t be safe yet he didn’t bother to ensure their safety before he fucks off… the only explanation is that he didn’t give a flying fuck about anyone but himself and his delulu which makes him complicit in their tragic death as much as his mad daddy who kept them hostages and the lannisters who slaughtered them

[rise-my-angel]

"Daemon would never do x, y, or z."

We literally watched this toddler temper tantrum having manchild paralyze his independent adult wife after confronting her alone in a field, and proceed to beat her to death with a rock when she did literally nothing wrong, just so he could try and pursue his 16 year old niece.

Try paying attention to what is literally right in front of your eyes on screen, for once.

[notfeelingthyaster]

i like how the ao3 tags are "Rhaenys Targaryen (Daughter of Elia)" and "Aegon Targaryen (Son of Elia)" yes yes they are her children <3333 her babies only hers

[katy-89]

asoiaf fandom when they talk about Daenerys and Rhaegar

[imfromthemiddlekingdom]

From what little of Lyanna that is flushed out in the books I must say, I do enjoy her as a wild and unflinchingly herself noble with little to no regard as to how other people perceive her. What I do not like however is the fandom characterization of her as a wilting flower that needed Rhaegar to steal her away from her big brute of a betrothed Robert.

We know she had a sensitive side to her due to her crying after Rhaegars performance, but we also know that she was a principled young woman with how she saw injustice being done to her fathers banner man and decided to take matters into her her own hands to distribute justice on those squires.

I cannot imagine a girl who was disgusted with Robert’s whoremongering ways would be happy to be the other woman to Elias marriage. This is why I don’t buy into her running away with Rhaegar if he promised to marry her and annual his marriage with Elia. A girl who didn’t want to marry Robert because he was a manwhore in every sense of the word would not have resigned herself to a mistress position. She was principled but wild and young but still principled.

This is why I don’t buy into the fandom characterization of Lyanna being happy to ruin a marriage because she loved Rhaegar. The most plausible scenario, for me, is that Rhaegar promised her freedom in the south to either become a knight, or joining the royal household which would delay her marriage. She was 15 but I don’t think she was stupid enough to believe that she would’ve been happy if Rhaegar set aside his kids with Elia to marry her. The whole ‘Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love!!! She was totally happy in the tower of joy!!!!’ Even if they were in love at the beginning and she did agree to run away with Rhaegar to start a new life, do you think she’d still be happy when news came that her brother and father were killed by her new father in law? Do you think she would’ve been happy being a prisoner in a tower in Dorne when all she wanted was to be free and wild?

If there were any love in Lyanna for Rhaegar, I think it would’ve disappeared the moment he locked her in a tower and the moment news came that her eldest brother and father was dead because of her. If Rhaegar even told her that they were dead.

[atopvisenyashill]

Is Lyanna really as terrible as some people portray her as?

no, not even a little bit.

the absolute most important thing about lyanna is that when she dies she is only 16. i am someone who works with kids - i work in a library so i spend most of my days cleaning up after tweens and asking teenagers to please stop doing dumb shit- and the first thing anyone who has ever worked with kids and especially teenagers is that they may look like adults but they are NOT. they don’t understand boundaries, they have next to zero impulse control, and every bad thing that happens feels like the worst thing ever because it very likely IS the worst thing they’ve ever experienced bc they have not been alive that long!

and this goes for every single teen & tween character in this series, not just lyanna! shit, i am someone who feels an immense amount of sympathy for joffrey! on one side he’s got his mother telling him he can do anything he wants with no repercussions and on the other he’s got his father hitting him so hard that stannis thought joffrey was going to die. and then he is given unchecked power and told not to abuse it! EYE cannot even guarantee that i wouldn’t use unchecked power to do shady shit and i am a fully grown adult, not a traumatized, irrationally, and deeply vindictive 13 year old boy.

but honestly the most important thing about lyanna is that we have ZERO CONTEXT for what happens between her and Rhaegar. What we have is

Ned’s sparse & guilt ridden thoughts about Lyanna and one (1) comment about Rhaegar

Robert’s angry, entitled, and grief ridden outbursts about Lyanna and Rhaegar

Barristan’s incredibly romanticized, guilt & grief ridden take on their relationship

Meera’s second hand account of Lyanna, told to her by a father who is likely just as guilt & grief ridden as the others, who likely has his own view of Lyanna

What’s important to note is that our view of her is heavily filtered through the eyes of the men that knew her. Robert loves an idealized version of her that never existed. Barristan never actually knew her. Ned is not only viewing her under 200 layers of guilt and grief, but very obviously does not understand his sister, or why she made the choices she did, and struggles constantly with knowing that he will never know her the way he wishes he could, the way he thought he did. Given the way Meera describes Lyanna, I actually think Howland is our most accurate look at her but even that is buried behind years of grief & a fair amount of hero worship and affection (“that’s my fathers man you’re kicking howled the she-wolf” is a line that makes me WEEP for this exact reason; Howland sees Lyanna as his hero above all else!).

All of that to say - we don't even know what Lyanna did that was so terrible! Even if she was a grown woman capable of making rational decisions, we have no idea what her decisions were. She could have been lied to, misled, kidnapped, threatened, just as surely as she could have walked into the situation with open eyes. Even in the show, with a slightly aged up Lyanna - we get, what, just Sam's opinion on Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love because they got hitched? Completely ignoring the fact that we had several women in this series get married not because they were in love or willing but because someone more powerful decided on it and that was that, so there's still no evidence that Lyanna had enough information about the situation to make any sort of informed, consensual decision.

so no, i do not hold lyanna responsible for anything at all that happened regardless of how it happened because she was not mentally mature enough to understand what the hell was going on. a 15 year old is just not mature enough to think “if i run off with this married man, it’s going to cause a cascade of political issues that could have disastrous consequences.” what she’s probably thinking is “this man says he can help me and i am fucking miserable and no one else will listen.” it’s why we don’t throw 15 year olds who run away to meet up with old dudes they met online in jail when they’re caught (or theoretically why we don’t punish them at any rate). There is one person and one person only who is responsible for the massive fuck up that is the Elia-Rhaenys-Aegon-Lyanna-Jon mess and that is RHAEGAR, the person with the most amount of power who used it in the dumbest way imaginable and got himself, most of his heirs, his wife, and his teenaged mistress killed. The only other people responsible are the Kingsguard who kept Lyanna under lock and key while she lay dying and pleading for her brother to come save her.