#i HATE rhaegar
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kass-of-the-midlands · 6 months ago
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We gloss over Elia being bedridden for six months, half a year after birthing Rhaenys far, far too easily imo. Rhaegar was actually fucking diabolical for having sex with her again, let alone Elia giving birth just a year after this
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jonsnowunemploymentera · 4 months ago
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Rhaegar Targaryen is easily one of GRRM’s best deconstructions of the genre and we don’t talk about it enough. He’s prince living in a world full of magic and wonder that has dwindled over time. His own family had a great monopoly on one of the most magical phenomena (dragons) to ever exist, but they lost this control over time and it was due to their own faults. But there’s an all encompassing hope that this magic, these dragons, will come back. They all live within the promise that it will all be back and with a huge bang. It’s all so romantic. Magical forces of ice and fire battling it out in a song.
Then there’s Rhaegar, a prince born for the sole purpose of being this song’s romantic hero. He already has his destiny mapped out and it will be a great one, greater than any other man who ever lived. It’s a song of ice and fire, and Rhaegar is its bard. You’d expect this to give him joy. Yet by all accounts, he was depressed as fuck. I think he’s unfairly earned the reputation of having an ego so big to think that he will be the hero….but that’s quite literally the point of his existence. He was born to be the hero. He paid the price at birth to be the hero. How can he revel and glory in this destiny when he has no say in it?
So it’s genuinely funny that when given the chance, Rhaegar immediately pivots to someone else taking on this burden. But how tragic for him that he cannot escape it too far. Because it will be none other than his own son who, under a “bleeding star”, is marked at conception for this great destiny without a say. More than his ego, Rhaegar is marked by the inability to escape this duty. His whole life is dedicated to fulfilling a duty he can never escape. He isn’t just a future king, prophecy dictates that the world’s survival is placed squarely on his shoulders. Even when he isn’t the hero, he’s now responsible for raising him…
…but then he makes one decision and it all comes crumbling like a pack of biscuits. He escapes this burden…but dies. And his successor dies too. And now the ones who will inherit his legacy are two people who never knew him. They never knew of his burdens, of this prophecy. But they too cannot escape its jaws. I think this does bring up some interesting questions about the nature of fate and destiny in the world of ice and fire. Can you really escape it? Rhaegar tried to, and paid the price for his defiance, but he never truly made it out because the burden instead jumped to the son (and sister) he never knew. Funny thing is that in a bizarre (and tragic, in its own way) twist of fate, this son was brought up entirely without the trappings of power that depressed Rhaegar. Rhaegar was a dazzling prince, Jon is a bastard. Rhaegar was marked by his great inheritance, Jon is marked by the lack thereof. Does fate say “well the first one got too depressed by having too much so let’s give the next one nothing?” Even Dany, who grows up a princess does not have the privileges that Rhaegar did. So how does upbringing craft a hero and the choices they make? Welll, GRRM had given us two versions of Rhaegar’s tragedy in Jon and Dany for us to see.
Rhaegar’s impact on the meta-narrative is honestly so massive. Like I’d put him right up there with Quentyn, Sansa, and Bran as one of the best genre deconstructions in the series and no one can tell me otherwise.
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fruitageoforanges · 18 days ago
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apparently it’s eliarhaegar hours so:
the thing that drives me absolutely nuts about them is how they have so little in common. completely different frames of reference. dorne and king’s landing, the least repressive of the seven kingdoms and the epicentre of westerosi feudalism. a loving family, a family rotten to the core with incest and abuse. the political world, the world of prophecies and doom and dragon blood. they were doomed from the start. they were so, so doomed, they could barely begin to understand each other yet their lives are bound together, and that makes me insane. two completely different worlds colliding and, while they might’ve been able to coexist in each other’s orbit for a while, the collision and the shattering itself are slow, beautiful and inevitable.
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throwawayasoiafaccount · 2 months ago
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Why do you think the tides have slightly turned from "Elia deserves better than Rhaegar" to shipping her and Rhaegar together? Like what is the psychology behind these people because I've seen some of them like/reblog anti Rhaegar posts while also shipping Rhaegar x Elia at the same time.
hey anon! my thoughts are a bit messy, but i’ve done my best to explain them coherently :)
so, rhaegar was the best man anyone could have when elia was alive, and most people want the best for their favs. he was considered the most handsome, didn’t have a bad personality, and he was crown prince—meaning elia was almost queen, which is often seen as the greatest role a woman can have. the narrative also treats rhaegar as a beautiful, tragic, haunting figure, and elia actually had this very aesthetically pleasing man all to herself at one point! she was married to him, had children with him, and her life was so close to perfect! but rhaegar just had to go and ruin it. 😠
for many elia stans, if rhaegar hadn’t fallen in love with another woman (they want him to have been a completely different character), then everything would’ve been perfect, and elia would’ve had the best, most desirable life. however, that’s not what happened—elia met a very tragic end, and as a result, these stans feel double the bitterness. because of this bitterness, they blame rhaegar for everything (even though it’s not logical to do so), but he’s just too ‘perfect’ to let go of. so, for years these stans have made rhaegar revolve around elia, filling his tag with posts about her out of bitterness. so, i do believe that this obsession with rhaegar x elia has always been there, but i think it’s become a more favorable stance on the elia stan side of the fandom because of a mix of reasons.
plus, rhaegar is one of the few canon relationships we know elia had, since she’s not much of a character. because of this, and the fact that most people don’t like to stray too far from canon, most elia stans are forced to focus on rhaegar, which has created an echo chamber. basically, if a sentiment about elia and rhaegar’s relationship becomes popular, then the whole elia stan side of the fandom will likely regurgitate the sentiment. (also, this desire to stick close to canon is likely why the elia x arthur ship was so popular. while it’s a total crack ship, it had good aesthetics, and since elia and arthur at least knew each other, it allowed the stans to create their perfect fanfiction whilst sticking it to rhaegar. but remember, elia was actually married to rhaegar and had children with him, so while arthur is cool, rhaegar was always ‘top dog,’ meaning arthur would never be able to match up to rhaegar to most elia stans. also, the arthur x elia crack ship is likely her second most popular ship, which just shows how little elia stans have to work with, so they’re always forced to eventually return back to rhaegar for a lot of things.)
however, even if the elia x rhaegar ship gains more popularity, these stans will never stop hating rhaegar because he wasn’t ‘perfect’—and he wasn’t perfect because he didn’t love elia. plus, rhaegar loving another woman and supposedly kidnapping her is what began the war that led to elia’s tragic death. that’s bitterness times 1000. and while i don’t actually blame rhaegar for the war, i do think that this is how an elia stan sees it. i also don’t view rhaegar’s complex relationship with elia as a bad thing—it’s actually a very realistic take on an arranged marriage between two decent people. but most elia stans will never be able to get over the fact that they almost had everything, which is why many have it out for lyanna, as they consider her a thief who ruined their ‘perfection.’
tbh, that might be why so many elia stans are so obsessed with the idea that rhaegar only got with lyanna because of the prophecy—they don’t want to believe that rhaegar actually loved a different woman and not their perfect self insert elia. that’s a bit mean of me… but i don’t know what else one would call the ‘elia’ elia stans have created.
now that i’ve laid all those thoughts out, i’ll try to explain why the tides seem to be turning… i think it may have something to do with the ‘targaryens are all evil and bad’ sentiment losing popularity. i think this shift has occurred due to a mix of factors, such as years of fandom fights and fandom cycles leading to the targs being more liked now than before. it helps that canon doesn’t actually condemn the targs/favors them quite a bit, and the influx of new targ fans from HOTD has also contributed. this combination of reasons seems to have shifted the way the mainstream fandom discusses all the targaryen characters, including rhaegar. so, with this shift, it’s only natural that some elia stans/elia x rhaegar shippers—who’ve always been there—are using this opportunity to push their agenda. while these stans still hate rhaegar and see him as the bad guy, they just can’t let go of him. and as the mainstream fandom moves away from the anti targaryen sentiment, these smaller corners of the fandom, which tend to be echo chambers, are also affected, which has therefore led to a rise in rhaegar x elia shippers and the ‘shifting tide’ that you’ve also noticed.
#‘if only rhaegar did this’ is a very common sentiment amongst elia stans#most stans have always had the ‘if only’ mindset#‘if only elia survived’ easily leads to ‘if only rhaegar didn’t run off with his whore’ as the targs become less hated#it’s kinda a pipeline? rhaegar anti plus elia stan leads to rhaegar x elia shipper who still hates rhaegar#another reason that a lot of this happens is because elia and the martells plus dorne are the good ‘others’ a person can like#while the targaryens are the ‘bad others’ one can safely hate as they’re white & have a bit of demon symbolism + come from an ‘evil’ empire#the targs also ruled over everyone so a lot of fans like pushing all the blame onto them for all the problems#however the targs are cool and they’re hot af and being royalty is the best! so they’re the ‘bad others’ one can safely hate#but people still want their aesthetic and want their favs to have what the targs had. all the cool magic + the aesthetic + danys monikers#so people can convince themselves that it’s okay and logical and right to hate the targs but most ppl will still connect their favs to them#of course… things have been shifting in the fandom which i’m very happy about#and all of these sentiments are combined and compressed when it comes to rhaegar and elias relationship#so any big shift on how the fandom views the targs will always affect the way rhaegar and elias relationship is viewed#it just so happens that the targs aren’t the evil dragon nazis anymore so it’s kinda okay for elia stans to ship him with her#i’m not gonna go through my tags and make sure they make sense so i’m simply hoping for the best#anyways… i hope i didn’t digress too much. i just found this shift so interesting so i couldn’t help myself#asoiaf fandom critical#anti elia stans#rhaegar targaryen#anti rhaegar x elia#house targaryen#valyrianscrolls#pro rhaelya#lyanna stark#rhaegar x lyanna#anon ask#thanks anon this was a fun topic to cover#i recently found a really old post about both elia and lyanna and boy… it was quite discusting to read#elia stans kinda cycle from ‘elia deserved better x crack ship with shallow aesthetic’ back to elia x rhaegar while shitting on rhaelya#just know that rhaegar is always the bad guy to them! the sentiment on lyanna will go from hot to cold but rhaelya is always bad as well!
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eliaakgae · 2 months ago
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Going through the Elia Martell x Rhaegar Targaryen tag on ao3 is like walking around the streets of Gotham unarmed
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sare11aa11eras · 2 months ago
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Just before
[Image Description: a full-color drawing, depicting the moment before Lyanna Stark is discovered to be the Knight of tihe Laughing Tree by Rhaegar Targaryen.
In the foreground, Lyanna Stark stands on a large grey stone at the edge of some water. She is barefoot and her shirt’s ties are undone so it falls open, revealing linen chest wrappings. Her shirt is white with red details and a silvery-grey lining. She also wears strips of light-colored fabric like her chest wrappings around her wrists. She wears dark grey stirrup pants. Her hair is in two braids, one still piled up on her head, the other falling down. Her hair ribbons are blue. Her bangs are plastered to her forehead. A necklace with a silver pendant with a wolf emblem on it is tucked into her chest wrappings. In her left hand, she holds her plain, wooden jousting lance straight up. Her helmet is propped between her left elbow and hip. She looks downward, towards the water in front of her, smiling, looking breathless and excited.
Also in the foreground is water, lots of grass, reeds, cattails, and more grey stones. A sapphire sits in the water. A pair of steel-toed leather boots is nearby. A little behind Lyanna, a crumpled grey dress is lying in the grass. A frog sits on the stump of a tree. There are a few purple flowers and red weirwood leaves scattered here and there.
In the midground is a massive weirwood tree, its foliage taking up much of the top half of the drawing. Lyanna’s shield, painted with the image of a laughing weirwood, is propped beneath its face. A raven perches on one of its boughs, in profile. A figure in profile wearing red and black, Rhaegar, is just coming around the tree, sword extended in front. The background is mostly blue, with an attempt to convey more trees and forest behind the subjects. / End ID.]
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ai-manre · 26 days ago
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If Rhaegar has a million fans, then I'm one of them.If Rhaegar has one fan, then I'm THAT ONE. If Rhaegar has no fans, that means I'm dead. :)
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juju-or-anya · 16 days ago
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A character I deeply hate in *Game of Thrones* and *A Song of Ice and Fire* isn’t Daenerys, nor Cersei, nor even Sansa (and that’s saying something, as she annoys me quite a bit). No, the character I truly despise is Robert Baratheon.
Robert embodies all the traits that make me think: "I hate men" or "Men disgust me." His entire personality revolves around being a womaniser, a drunk, an overweight man obsessed with the ghost of a dead woman. Lyanna Stark has been in her grave for nearly twenty years, and she still can’t rest in peace because of his sick fixation.
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. While Robert wasn’t the mastermind of the Rebellion, he was certainly the one who fuelled it. He didn’t do it for the good of the realm or out of any sense of justice; he did it because he couldn’t accept that maybe Lyanna didn’t want to marry him. She preferred to be another man’s lover rather than his wife, and instead of accepting that, he unleashed a war. Lyanna, though raised as a noble lady of the North, had a will of iron and wouldn’t have allowed herself to be kidnapped without a fight (not that she really had a chance to avoid it—after all, she was a fifteen or sixteen-year-old girl facing Rhaegar, a twenty-four-year-old trained warrior—but I think you get my point).
And let’s not even talk about his reaction to the murder and rape of Elia Martell and her children. Robert laughed cruelly when he heard that innocent children, some barely toddlers, had been brutally killed and celebrated that a helpless woman had been raped and murdered. He was happy about it.
Of course, I’m not idealising characters like Lyanna, Elia, or Rhaegar. We can’t sanctify or demonise them because we don’t truly know them. Everything we know about them is filtered through the perspectives of others, some positive, some negative. They’re “told” characters, like Lily and James Potter in Harry Potter, whose backstories depend entirely on others’ memories. But who do we actually know enough about? Robert Baratheon. We know he’s the kind of man who would order the murder of a pregnant girl across the sea—a girl who’d already lost her family and home because of his rebellion. Robert did all this, not because Aerys was a tyrant, but because he was obsessed with the memory of a woman who never loved him.
As for his supposed "love" for Lyanna, he never showed any intention of respecting her, being faithful to her, or actually loving her. He was only in love with the idea of having a beautiful, strong, wild wife he could mould and subdue to his will. Before he was even engaged to Lyanna, he’d already fathered a bastard daughter; and only a few weeks after her death, he had Gendry. So much for his “great” love for Lyanna—he was already fathering children with other women within weeks.
What’s worse is that half the story seems determined to paint him as "the good guy." Give me a break. The realm didn’t entirely collapse during his reign only because of Tywin Lannister’s ambition and the competence of the royal council, who worked tirelessly to maintain stability. None of this was thanks to Robert Baratheon, who barely managed his responsibilities while the realm barely kept itself afloat despite him.
For all these reasons and more, I deeply hate Robert Baratheon.
Edit: I'll stand corrected, because a comment corrected me and they's right. The real hero who kept King Landing stable enough for there to still be a King Landing was Jon Arryn, that man deserved a raise and the biggest statue in the world, as well as putting up with his idiot king.
Edit 2: Re-reading my post, I realized that I made a somewhat fatphobic comment when I talked about Robert's physique and if anyone feels hurt, I truly apologize. I will not delete it, because it will be evident and give me a reason to improve, we are in constant deconstruction and I do not want to delete something bad that I could have said and pretend it never happened, how will I learn if I do that?
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wayward-coffee-raccoon · 6 months ago
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Rhaelya shippers always piss me off so much because no one in this entire fandom mischaracterizes Lyanna more than them. Like wtf do you mean a 14-15 yr old girl deciding to leave home to run away with a 20 yr old man is in any way "romantic" or "giving female characters agency". Its literally grooming.
Do yall really think Lyanna Stark, Knight of the Laughing tree would want to be locked away in a tower somewhere far away from the North , bearing the child of some man she barely knows just because she is "madly in love with him'?? Why would she stay even after hearing of the deaths of her father and brother??? Do you really think she would have wanted to die on the child bed at age 16 without any of her family???
Lyanna herself comments about love not being able to change someone's nature but she really changed entirely once she meet Rhaegar???
I need yall creeps to stay the fuck away from her
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melrosing · 10 months ago
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that viral post about Jon finding mentors everywhere he goes except it’s Jaime looking for mentors and all of them are like you’re ugly you’re disgusting give me 500 dragons
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la-pheacienne · 8 months ago
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I will never understand people insisting that it was Jaime's fault Elia and the children died and that he didn't do his job. I don't understand why people cannot acknowledge that the multitude and diversity of factors working simultaneously and opposite to each other is precisely what creates the tragedy of the event(s), these factors being slowly morphed into a mechanism functining on its own accord, beyond any power individual decisions could have. Every single individual in this tragedy (the sack and the rebellion in general) had entirely different motivations and aspirations, and no individual had the full picture at any occasion whatsoever, and this is precisely because of the broader mechanism that was in motion that I mentioned above. And there lies the whole point, the concept of not knowing, not being able to know in advance. The idea of actions, choices, decisions having unexpected consequences that a character could not be able to imagine in advance. Things could have been different if at any point any of the individuals implicated in this event(s) knew the whole picture, or at worst, if they were more careful, more diligent, if they had made a better assessment of the situation at hand. I don't believe what happened was technically inevitable of course. It could have been avoided, which is something that amplifies the tragedy. Of course the individual decisions of any of the factors involved shaped the result. But we need to take into account all these parameters that were at play leading to each and every decision, prior to the decision itself, in order to avoid a bad faith reading of the text. We know everything that happened. The individuals did not know what would happen prior to making the decisions they made.
Rhaegar running away with Lyanna seems suspicious in general and there is definitely a lot of info missing there (which has been confirmed by grrm, meaning there was probably a reason they run away together - and i'm NOT talking about the braindead fanon theory of rhaegar collecting dragon heads like pokemons). Aside from that big hole of info we don't have that would give a solid context for this otherwise pretty inexplicable action, R and L could not have expected in advance that the events would play out in the way they did, they could not know in advance that someone (Baelish?) would spread the news of a literal kidnapping, they could not know in advance what Brandon would do, what Aerys would do, and so forth, and we don't even know when exactly they found out that all these things happened since they were isolated. They for sure could absolutely not know that Tywin, who didn't even take part in the rebellion, would eventually think it would be a great idea to randomnly order the rape and murder of Elia and the murder of the children. Nobody could ever imagine that in their right minds, yes, not-even-jaime-hello, which is precisely why this is an act of TREASON (and treason is an understatement), which is precisely why that act has such an impact and such an aura of horror and shock surrounding it, because of how unexpected and inconceivable it was, and also, how unneccessary it was, at a moment where the war was already won.
The power Rhaegar had in changing these events in any way shape or form was minimal to none, faced with the mad king that could go off the rails at any moment, the treason, the unprecedented cruelty of his enemies that were supposed to be allies, and more than that, the general mechanism already in motion leading to this tragic outcome.
Which leads me to Jaime. Jaime feels guilty for what happeend to Elia and her children, of course he does. He was there, in KL, he was sitting on the iron throne (i think that's when it happened) while the events took place and he didn't prevent them. I would also feel guilty if I were him. Who wouldn't? He was there. If he had thought this through, if he was more diligent, smarter, quicker idk, more perceptive maybe he would have figured this out sooner, maybe he would have done something, maybe he would have been able to save them. That's undoubtedly what he tells himself. Rhaegar would undoubtedly feel extreme guilt if he was alive after the sack of KL (which is a mere hypothesis since the sack of KL wouldn't have taken place had he been alive). Hell, even Ned feelts guilty for what happened to Elia and her children. That doesn't mean these people (i'm talking mainly about R and J) are actually responsible for what happened. That it is their fault that it happened. That they willingly wanted it to happen, or expected it to happen and didn't care, or let it happen in Jaime's case. Jaime's guilt stems from an error of judgement at worst, the fact that had he known every single parameter at play, had he imagined the exact motivations and intentions of a multitude of people and how far they were willing to go, had he expected what would happen in detail, he would have acted differently and maybe, maybe the result would have been different. That's not even certain, given, again, the multitude of factors at play that were beyond Jaime's power. But Jaime of course cannot help but think about the what if. The result could have been different had Jaime acted differently but Jaime acted according to the specific situation he had at hand, according to the specific problem that he had to face. He did what he thought was right in that precise moment. He didn't and couldn't possibly know what was going on outside from his sphere and if he did, we do not know for sure that he could have actually prevented the worst from happenning.
And I'm being exceptionally strict here by attributing an error of judgement to Jaime because I could have just said he was entirely innocent for what happened to Elia and the children, and it wouldn't be false. Again, error of judgement doesn't equal responsibility for what happened, it doesn't equal "moral flaw". An error of judgement does not give the reader a reason to morally judge a character. It is an entirely different thing.
I got this from Britannica :
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I don't get how people can be so dense when reading anything related to the sack of KL and/or Robert's Rebellion in general. "Jaime didn't do his job", "Rhaegar led Elia and their children to their deaths" like, can you actually read? I was unnecessarily thorough here for something that is not all that complicated. It is pretty straightforward actually. It's sad that people do not get it. Like, I see BNFs being all deep and analytical about Jaime's moral struggles and dilemmas and overall tragedy and how he was in a situation that exceeded him and then they're like "rhaegar is the reason elia and the children died". From the other side I see people saying that Rhaegar couldn't have known what would happen and then they're like "Jaime didn't do his job!!!", guys. Guys. I'm begging you. I IMPLORE YOU : correcting a mischaracterization (Rhaegar was stupid/selfish for leaving """""all that responsibility""""" to Jaime) with another mischaracterization (Jaime "didn't do his job" because he's a moral coward) is not the way to go, it is done in bad faith, it erases the entire point of Robert's Rebellion along with a bunch of very important themes in asoiaf (the impossibility of choice, the fact that moral codes are actually a construct and don't always apply/sometimes contradict, and the feeling of powerlessness of an individual when faced with a monstrous mechanism, a system that is beyond their control).
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fromtheseventhhell · 11 months ago
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The majority of Rhaegar/Lyanna stans here are minding their own business but for certain people here (especially "martell stans") is not enough
They keep bashing these characters and they are acting as if they are "oppressed" by Rhaegar's stans
It's boring
This is sooooo true, and why I find Elia/Martell stans to be so annoying even though I love several Martell characters (same with house Stark stans tbh). They love throwing stones and then hiding their hands. They put their hate in the main tags and call Rhaegar a pedophile/rapist/racist/abuser/etc., Lyanna a spoiled brat/heartless temptress, and shit talk shippers cause they think the fanon they invented justifies it but the second a Rhaelya gives a fraction of that energy back, they play the victim. Cause you're right, it's not enough for them. At the root of it, they're forever going to be mad that Rhaegar, Lyanna, and their relationship are popular + important to the story. They swear they don't care but then they never shut up about them. Just another case of people wanting to be morally superior and getting pissy when things don't go their way.
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throwawayasoiafaccount · 5 months ago
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i still cannot believe that people consider having lovers outside of a political marriage as cheating
a lot can be discussed about how raging misogyny and the patriarchy in westeros has led to unequal standards for women to uphold and suffer from
as highborn women are not allowed the same sexual freedom that highborn men get to experience, and even if these women do have relationships outside of their marriages, they are usually scorned and shunned by society for daring to practice sexual autonomy
it’s unfair, i am very aware of this fact
(that’s why i’ll never understand team green stans)
but george has never ever condemned his characters for finding and experiencing love outside of doing their duty.
never.
we’re not unfeeling machines that lack emotions. we’re humans who are, more often than not, led by our hearts. and grrm does a phenomenal job when creating characters, as they truly feel human.
so yeah, it’s a bit disappointing that people dumb down what is clearly a very complex situation to “cheating” (btw george himself calls rhaegar and elias relationship complex and he’s never implied that they loved each other in a romantic sense).
to reiterate, i am well aware that highborn women and men are held to different standards, however, if you have a problem with characters working through, around, and sometimes failing to overcome the social structures that cause their suffering, then you must have a major issue with george’s exploration of the human heart in conflict with itself.
george’s characters aren’t robots and that’s what makes them interesting. they do things for very human reasons. they’re biased. they’re traumatized. they’re conflicted. but they’re still reaching for a better tomorrow and they’re still trying to find happiness.
so i’ll never consider rhaegar and lyannas relationship as cheating, or something unsightly that should be scorned. for they simply dared to find and grasp love in a society that would rather shackle them to unhappy marriages, which is very commendable.
oh… and do you know what george does criticize?
political marriages lol
he makes it clear that selling women off as broodmares and forcing men into marriages they don’t want is a recipe for disaster.
of course the eventual fallouts of these relationships is super interesting to read about, but you should never ever support the systems in place and the societies that benefit from pushing people/characters into these incredibly unhealthy relationships
so while i find it interesting to read about characters navigating these relationships, i’ll always be the first person to condemn these societies for forcing this fate onto them. i’ll also always be the first person to root for characters who do their best to find happiness outside of their political/arranged marriage
sorry that i don’t condemn a character for finding love outside of a loveless marriage
instead of getting angry at rhaegar and lyanna and being very nonsensical in the main tags about it, how about you turn that anger onto the patriarchy, which is rooted in every single institution and family in westeros, the patriarchy that refuses to allow women to have the same amount of sexual autonomy as men?
(this is why i despise team green :))
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wokedragon · 1 year ago
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I feel like Rhaegar’s character would be waaay less hated if it weren’t for his fans. They see him as this perfect Targaryen male who did all he could to save the world and was gravely misunderstood by his time and everyone who thinks differently is wrong. When in reality he kind of sucks and had the biggest known flop in Planetos. Really, his actions directly distabilized the realm and caused the death and rape of Elia Martell, the death of their children, Lyanna’s and a lot of other people’s 😬. But that’s not very heroic is it? That’s why it had to be a great love story between him and Lyanna and Elia had to be in on all of it because if Rhaegar isn’t the perfect misunderstood hero then he’s just some crazy Targaryen blinded by his trauma and self like that caused thousands of deaths like the rest of them. I feel like the actual Rhaegar, you know the one that doesn’t sound like he was directly pulled from a YA authors debut novel, the one who has a complex relationship with his parents, with the crown, with himself….the one who can’t make a mistake, the one who cannot look back or else… is more interesting. Grey characters are in general more interesting and that’s probably why grrm writes a lot of them. He would be less hated if his fans held him accountable for all the awful things he has done and caused but oh well…
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queen-morgana91 · 1 year ago
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Damn so many Dornish fans hate the Targaryens so much when actually Dorne is the most pro-Targaryen region in the current timeline. They WANT Targaryen restoration. They WANT RHAEGAR'S son/sister/brother on the throne because they see it as the best way to avenge Elia and her children. They are not blaming Rhaegar, and that’s funny.
"We looked for Rhaegar’s sister, not his son.”— Arianne
“Daenerys Targaryen is of our blood as well. Daughter of King Aerys, Rhaegar’s sister. And she has dragons, or so the tales would have us believe.” Fire and blood. “Where is she?" - Arianne
Dornishmen are Targaryen loyalists and the revenge they want is not on Daenerys, Rhaegar or whoever else, but on the Lannisters.
“What is our heart’s desire?”
“Vengeance.” His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.”
If people let go their so called moral policing for one second and stop painting Rhaegar/Lyanna/Targaryens this cartoonish villains who gets blamed for everything bad that happened in westeros even years after their death then they'd understand how much importance they hold in asoiaf plot and the characters.
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dragonsfromthemoon · 2 years ago
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From a narrative standpoint, Elia Martell's brutal death has two main consequences:
1. give nuance to Robert's Rebellion.
At first, Robert Baratheon and his allies seem to be in the right. They are supposedly the heroes who raised an army to depose the tyrant and pyromaniac king, as well as “rescue” Lyanna Stark from the “clutches” of Rhaegar. Like in a fairytale, the noble warriors go against the evil dragons.
Yet, as the story progresses, we find that's not the truth. The main warrior, namely Robert, is not noble and good. The supposed main evil dragon, Rhaegar, is not evil — he is actually a tragic figure, just as Lyanna is.
Just as Elia Martell is.
Her death in the sacking of King's Landing is one of the most brutal and unfair of the Rebellion. Thus, as readers, we ask ourselves: was it really worth it? The rebels were supposedly fighting against Aerys II's tyrany and ineptitude to rule, against the unfair and cruel death of innocents like Rickard and Brandon Stark. Yet here it is this woman who is coldly murdered; Robert laughs at the corpses of her children and rewards Tywin Lannister for his loyalty.
The question of “was it really worth it?” is posed by GRRM himself in an interview, when asked about Robert's Rebellion.
youtube
To sum it up, he wants his readers to reflect and arrive at their own conclusions. And he does pose the question: was the violence in Robert's Rebellion justified?
Well, one thing is for sure: he gives nuance to this happening. Elia's death, as brutal as it was, serves this purpose.
[Personally, I frown upon the brutalization of Elia and other female characters, but that's not what I'm discussing on this meta.]
2. putting Dorne into play.
Elia was the beloved sister of Doran Martell, the Prince of Dorne, and Oberyn Martell. After her death, they spend years, up until the timeline of the main series, planning their revenge against the Lannisters and their allies. That involves a Targaryen restoration as well (first with Viserys, now with Young Griff and Daenerys).
It is clear, thus, how Elia and what happened to her are the main motivators for Doran and Oberyn Martell. The Lannisters are their enemies and will pay for what happened to Elia and her children. The themes of vengeance and war are explored here, especially through Doran Martell.
He wants to avenge his little sister, yes; but he also hesitates. He knows the costs of war and is wary of it. Innocents always end up paying an unfair price.
In conclusion, Elia's death is not even about Rhaegar and Lyanna and their relationship. There are more layers to it.
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