#i HATE rhaegar

[kass-of-the-midlands]

We gloss over Elia being bedridden for six months, half a year after birthing Rhaenys far, far too easily imo. Rhaegar was actually fucking diabolical for having sex with her again, let alone Elia giving birth just a year after this

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Rhaegar Targaryen is easily one of GRRM’s best deconstructions of the genre and we don’t talk about it enough. He’s prince living in a world full of magic and wonder that has dwindled over time. His own family had a great monopoly on one of the most magical phenomena (dragons) to ever exist, but they lost this control over time and it was due to their own faults. But there’s an all encompassing hope that this magic, these dragons, will come back. They all live within the promise that it will all be back and with a huge bang. It’s all so romantic. Magical forces of ice and fire battling it out in a song.

Then there’s Rhaegar, a prince born for the sole purpose of being this song’s romantic hero. He already has his destiny mapped out and it will be a great one, greater than any other man who ever lived. It’s a song of ice and fire, and Rhaegar is its bard. You’d expect this to give him joy. Yet by all accounts, he was depressed as fuck. I think he’s unfairly earned the reputation of having an ego so big to think that he will be the hero….but that’s quite literally the point of his existence. He was born to be the hero. He paid the price at birth to be the hero. How can he revel and glory in this destiny when he has no say in it?

So it’s genuinely funny that when given the chance, Rhaegar immediately pivots to someone else taking on this burden. But how tragic for him that he cannot escape it too far. Because it will be none other than his own son who, under a “bleeding star”, is marked at conception for this great destiny without a say. More than his ego, Rhaegar is marked by the inability to escape this duty. His whole life is dedicated to fulfilling a duty he can never escape. He isn’t just a future king, prophecy dictates that the world’s survival is placed squarely on his shoulders. Even when he isn’t the hero, he’s now responsible for raising him…

…but then he makes one decision and it all comes crumbling like a pack of biscuits. He escapes this burden…but dies. And his successor dies too. And now the ones who will inherit his legacy are two people who never knew him. They never knew of his burdens, of this prophecy. But they too cannot escape its jaws. I think this does bring up some interesting questions about the nature of fate and destiny in the world of ice and fire. Can you really escape it? Rhaegar tried to, and paid the price for his defiance, but he never truly made it out because the burden instead jumped to the son (and sister) he never knew. Funny thing is that in a bizarre (and tragic, in its own way) twist of fate, this son was brought up entirely without the trappings of power that depressed Rhaegar. Rhaegar was a dazzling prince, Jon is a bastard. Rhaegar was marked by his great inheritance, Jon is marked by the lack thereof. Does fate say “well the first one got too depressed by having too much so let’s give the next one nothing?” Even Dany, who grows up a princess does not have the privileges that Rhaegar did. So how does upbringing craft a hero and the choices they make? Welll, GRRM had given us two versions of Rhaegar’s tragedy in Jon and Dany for us to see.

Rhaegar’s impact on the meta-narrative is honestly so massive. Like I’d put him right up there with Quentyn, Sansa, and Bran as one of the best genre deconstructions in the series and no one can tell me otherwise.

[atasian123]

Not all but I’ve seen a lot of R+L shippers love to erase Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon. Like they make AU’s where Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon die and Rhaegar is just completely content??

Like Rhaegar was born during Summerhall which many attribute to his melancholy- born from an event of death and destruction- an event he couldn’t remember nor comprehend yet he was still brooding and melancholic. And you’re telling me he wouldn’t have been absolutely torn apart from the deaths of Rhaenys, Aegon and Elia?

Rhaenys was found hiding under his bed. To Rhaenys, her father was her shining brave hero that would come to rescue her, but he couldn’t.

R+L is not a happy ending if they had lived. Rhaegar would have probably gone insane with grief from the deaths of his wife and children.

And Lyanna?? Poor girl was only 15 years old. She would have been devastated by the loss of Brandon and Rickon, the books indicate she was righteous, she would have wanted blood for the deaths of her father and brother. She probably also would have blamed herself.

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

Why do you think the tides have slightly turned from "Elia deserves better than Rhaegar" to shipping her and Rhaegar together? Like what is the psychology behind these people because I've seen some of them like/reblog anti Rhaegar posts while also shipping Rhaegar x Elia at the same time.

hey anon! my thoughts are a bit messy, but i’ve done my best to explain them coherently :)

so, rhaegar was the best man anyone could have when elia was alive, and most people want the best for their favs. he was considered the most handsome, didn’t have a bad personality, and he was crown prince—meaning elia was almost queen, which is often seen as the greatest role a woman can have. the narrative also treats rhaegar as a beautiful, tragic, haunting figure, and elia actually had this very aesthetically pleasing man all to herself at one point! she was married to him, had children with him, and her life was so close to perfect! but rhaegar just had to go and ruin it. 😠

for many elia stans, if rhaegar hadn’t fallen in love with another woman (they want him to have been a completely different character), then everything would’ve been perfect, and elia would’ve had the best, most desirable life. however, that’s not what happened—elia met a very tragic end, and as a result, these stans feel double the bitterness. because of this bitterness, they blame rhaegar for everything (even though it’s not logical to do so), but he’s just too ‘perfect’ to let go of. so, for years these stans have made rhaegar revolve around elia, filling his tag with posts about her out of bitterness. so, i do believe that this obsession with rhaegar x elia has always been there, but i think it’s become a more favorable stance on the elia stan side of the fandom because of a mix of reasons.

plus, rhaegar is one of the few canon relationships we know elia had, since she’s not much of a character. because of this, and the fact that most people don’t like to stray too far from canon, most elia stans are forced to focus on rhaegar, which has created an echo chamber. basically, if a sentiment about elia and rhaegar’s relationship becomes popular, then the whole elia stan side of the fandom will likely regurgitate the sentiment. (also, this desire to stick close to canon is likely why the elia x arthur ship was so popular. while it’s a total crack ship, it had good aesthetics, and since elia and arthur at least knew each other, it allowed the stans to create their perfect fanfiction whilst sticking it to rhaegar. but remember, elia was actually married to rhaegar and had children with him, so while arthur is cool, rhaegar was always ‘top dog,’ meaning arthur would never be able to match up to rhaegar to most elia stans. also, the arthur x elia crack ship is likely her second most popular ship, which just shows how little elia stans have to work with, so they’re always forced to eventually return back to rhaegar for a lot of things.)

however, even if the elia x rhaegar ship gains more popularity, these stans will never stop hating rhaegar because he wasn’t ‘perfect’—and he wasn’t perfect because he didn’t love elia. plus, rhaegar loving another woman and supposedly kidnapping her is what began the war that led to elia’s tragic death. that’s bitterness times 1000. and while i don’t actually blame rhaegar for the war, i do think that this is how an elia stan sees it. i also don’t view rhaegar’s complex relationship with elia as a bad thing—it’s actually a very realistic take on an arranged marriage between two decent people. but most elia stans will never be able to get over the fact that they almost had everything, which is why many have it out for lyanna, as they consider her a thief who ruined their ‘perfection.’

tbh, that might be why so many elia stans are so obsessed with the idea that rhaegar only got with lyanna because of the prophecy—they don’t want to believe that rhaegar actually loved a different woman and not their perfect self insert elia. that’s a bit mean of me… but i don’t know what else one would call the ‘elia’ elia stans have created.

now that i’ve laid all those thoughts out, i’ll try to explain why the tides seem to be turning… i think it may have something to do with the ‘targaryens are all evil and bad’ sentiment losing popularity. i think this shift has occurred due to a mix of factors, such as years of fandom fights and fandom cycles leading to the targs being more liked now than before. it helps that canon doesn’t actually condemn the targs/favors them quite a bit, and the influx of new targ fans from HOTD has also contributed. this combination of reasons seems to have shifted the way the mainstream fandom discusses all the targaryen characters, including rhaegar. so, with this shift, it’s only natural that some elia stans/elia x rhaegar shippers—who’ve always been there—are using this opportunity to push their agenda. while these stans still hate rhaegar and see him as the bad guy, they just can’t let go of him. and as the mainstream fandom moves away from the anti targaryen sentiment, these smaller corners of the fandom, which tend to be echo chambers, are also affected, which has therefore led to a rise in rhaegar x elia shippers and the ‘shifting tide’ that you’ve also noticed.

[fruitageoforanges]

apparently it’s eliarhaegar hours so:

the thing that drives me absolutely nuts about them is how they have so little in common. completely different frames of reference. dorne and king’s landing, the least repressive of the seven kingdoms and the epicentre of westerosi feudalism. a loving family, a family rotten to the core with incest and abuse. the political world, the world of prophecies and doom and dragon blood. they were doomed from the start. they were so, so doomed, they could barely begin to understand each other yet their lives are bound together, and that makes me insane. two completely different worlds colliding and, while they might’ve been able to coexist in each other’s orbit for a while, the collision and the shattering itself are slow, beautiful and inevitable.

[eliaakgae]

Going through the Elia Martell x Rhaegar Targaryen tag on ao3 is like walking around the streets of Gotham unarmed

[sare11aa11eras]

Just before

[Image Description: a full-color drawing, depicting the moment before Lyanna Stark is discovered to be the Knight of tihe Laughing Tree by Rhaegar Targaryen.

In the foreground, Lyanna Stark stands on a large grey stone at the edge of some water. She is barefoot and her shirt’s ties are undone so it falls open, revealing linen chest wrappings. Her shirt is white with red details and a silvery-grey lining. She also wears strips of light-colored fabric like her chest wrappings around her wrists. She wears dark grey stirrup pants. Her hair is in two braids, one still piled up on her head, the other falling down. Her hair ribbons are blue. Her bangs are plastered to her forehead. A necklace with a silver pendant with a wolf emblem on it is tucked into her chest wrappings. In her left hand, she holds her plain, wooden jousting lance straight up. Her helmet is propped between her left elbow and hip. She looks downward, towards the water in front of her, smiling, looking breathless and excited.

Also in the foreground is water, lots of grass, reeds, cattails, and more grey stones. A sapphire sits in the water. A pair of steel-toed leather boots is nearby. A little behind Lyanna, a crumpled grey dress is lying in the grass. A frog sits on the stump of a tree. There are a few purple flowers and red weirwood leaves scattered here and there.

In the midground is a massive weirwood tree, its foliage taking up much of the top half of the drawing. Lyanna’s shield, painted with the image of a laughing weirwood, is propped beneath its face. A raven perches on one of its boughs, in profile. A figure in profile wearing red and black, Rhaegar, is just coming around the tree, sword extended in front. The background is mostly blue, with an attempt to convey more trees and forest behind the subjects. / End ID.]

[ai-manre]

If Rhaegar has a million fans, then I'm one of them.If Rhaegar has one fan, then I'm THAT ONE. If Rhaegar has no fans, that means I'm dead. :)

[wayward-coffee-raccoon]

Rhaelya shippers always piss me off so much because no one in this entire fandom mischaracterizes Lyanna more than them. Like wtf do you mean a 14-15 yr old girl deciding to leave home to run away with a 20 yr old man is in any way "romantic" or "giving female characters agency". Its literally grooming.

Do yall really think Lyanna Stark, Knight of the Laughing tree would want to be locked away in a tower somewhere far away from the North , bearing the child of some man she barely knows just because she is "madly in love with him'?? Why would she stay even after hearing of the deaths of her father and brother??? Do you really think she would have wanted to die on the child bed at age 16 without any of her family???

Lyanna herself comments about love not being able to change someone's nature but she really changed entirely once she meet Rhaegar???

I need yall creeps to stay the fuck away from her

[melrosing]

that viral post about Jon finding mentors everywhere he goes except it’s Jaime looking for mentors and all of them are like you’re ugly you’re disgusting give me 500 dragons

[la-pheacienne]

I will never understand people insisting that it was Jaime's fault Elia and the children died and that he didn't do his job. I don't understand why people cannot acknowledge that the multitude and diversity of factors working simultaneously and opposite to each other is precisely what creates the tragedy of the event(s), these factors being slowly morphed into a mechanism functining on its own accord, beyond any power individual decisions could have. Every single individual in this tragedy (the sack and the rebellion in general) had entirely different motivations and aspirations, and no individual had the full picture at any occasion whatsoever, and this is precisely because of the broader mechanism that was in motion that I mentioned above. And there lies the whole point, the concept of not knowing, not being able to know in advance. The idea of actions, choices, decisions having unexpected consequences that a character could not be able to imagine in advance. Things could have been different if at any point any of the individuals implicated in this event(s) knew the whole picture, or at worst, if they were more careful, more diligent, if they had made a better assessment of the situation at hand. I don't believe what happened was technically inevitable of course. It could have been avoided, which is something that amplifies the tragedy. Of course the individual decisions of any of the factors involved shaped the result. But we need to take into account all these parameters that were at play leading to each and every decision, prior to the decision itself, in order to avoid a bad faith reading of the text. We know everything that happened. The individuals did not know what would happen prior to making the decisions they made.

Rhaegar running away with Lyanna seems suspicious in general and there is definitely a lot of info missing there (which has been confirmed by grrm, meaning there was probably a reason they run away together - and i'm NOT talking about the braindead fanon theory of rhaegar collecting dragon heads like pokemons). Aside from that big hole of info we don't have that would give a solid context for this otherwise pretty inexplicable action, R and L could not have expected in advance that the events would play out in the way they did, they could not know in advance that someone (Baelish?) would spread the news of a literal kidnapping, they could not know in advance what Brandon would do, what Aerys would do, and so forth, and we don't even know when exactly they found out that all these things happened since they were isolated. They for sure could absolutely not know that Tywin, who didn't even take part in the rebellion, would eventually think it would be a great idea to randomnly order the rape and murder of Elia and the murder of the children. Nobody could ever imagine that in their right minds, yes, not-even-jaime-hello, which is precisely why this is an act of TREASON (and treason is an understatement), which is precisely why that act has such an impact and such an aura of horror and shock surrounding it, because of how unexpected and inconceivable it was, and also, how unneccessary it was, at a moment where the war was already won.

The power Rhaegar had in changing these events in any way shape or form was minimal to none, faced with the mad king that could go off the rails at any moment, the treason, the unprecedented cruelty of his enemies that were supposed to be allies, and more than that, the general mechanism already in motion leading to this tragic outcome.

Which leads me to Jaime. Jaime feels guilty for what happeend to Elia and her children, of course he does. He was there, in KL, he was sitting on the iron throne (i think that's when it happened) while the events took place and he didn't prevent them. I would also feel guilty if I were him. Who wouldn't? He was there. If he had thought this through, if he was more diligent, smarter, quicker idk, more perceptive maybe he would have figured this out sooner, maybe he would have done something, maybe he would have been able to save them. That's undoubtedly what he tells himself. Rhaegar would undoubtedly feel extreme guilt if he was alive after the sack of KL (which is a mere hypothesis since the sack of KL wouldn't have taken place had he been alive). Hell, even Ned feelts guilty for what happened to Elia and her children. That doesn't mean these people (i'm talking mainly about R and J) are actually responsible for what happened. That it is their fault that it happened. That they willingly wanted it to happen, or expected it to happen and didn't care, or let it happen in Jaime's case. Jaime's guilt stems from an error of judgement at worst, the fact that had he known every single parameter at play, had he imagined the exact motivations and intentions of a multitude of people and how far they were willing to go, had he expected what would happen in detail, he would have acted differently and maybe, maybe the result would have been different. That's not even certain, given, again, the multitude of factors at play that were beyond Jaime's power. But Jaime of course cannot help but think about the what if. The result could have been different had Jaime acted differently but Jaime acted according to the specific situation he had at hand, according to the specific problem that he had to face. He did what he thought was right in that precise moment. He didn't and couldn't possibly know what was going on outside from his sphere and if he did, we do not know for sure that he could have actually prevented the worst from happenning.

And I'm being exceptionally strict here by attributing an error of judgement to Jaime because I could have just said he was entirely innocent for what happened to Elia and the children, and it wouldn't be false. Again, error of judgement doesn't equal responsibility for what happened, it doesn't equal "moral flaw". An error of judgement does not give the reader a reason to morally judge a character. It is an entirely different thing.

I got this from Britannica :

I don't get how people can be so dense when reading anything related to the sack of KL and/or Robert's Rebellion in general. "Jaime didn't do his job", "Rhaegar led Elia and their children to their deaths" like, can you actually read? I was unnecessarily thorough here for something that is not all that complicated. It is pretty straightforward actually. It's sad that people do not get it. Like, I see BNFs being all deep and analytical about Jaime's moral struggles and dilemmas and overall tragedy and how he was in a situation that exceeded him and then they're like "rhaegar is the reason elia and the children died". From the other side I see people saying that Rhaegar couldn't have known what would happen and then they're like "Jaime didn't do his job!!!", guys. Guys. I'm begging you. I IMPLORE YOU : correcting a mischaracterization (Rhaegar was stupid/selfish for leaving """""all that responsibility""""" to Jaime) with another mischaracterization (Jaime "didn't do his job" because he's a moral coward) is not the way to go, it is done in bad faith, it erases the entire point of Robert's Rebellion along with a bunch of very important themes in asoiaf (the impossibility of choice, the fact that moral codes are actually a construct and don't always apply/sometimes contradict, and the feeling of powerlessness of an individual when faced with a monstrous mechanism, a system that is beyond their control).

[atasian123]

People insisting that the woman on the bed is Lyanna and not Elia..

Lmao R+L shippers are so salty that they’re ship isn’t being commemorated that they once again love to completely dismiss Elia’s presence and try and substitute it for Lyanna.

If you know the book then it literally can’t be Lyanna because Rhaegar was already dead before Jon was even born.

Also side note: Elia literally looks so otherworldly in this picture.

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

i still cannot believe that people consider having lovers outside of a political marriage as cheating

a lot can be discussed about how raging misogyny and the patriarchy in westeros has led to unequal standards for women to uphold and suffer from

as highborn women are not allowed the same sexual freedom that highborn men get to experience, and even if these women do have relationships outside of their marriages, they are usually scorned and shunned by society for daring to practice sexual autonomy

it’s unfair, i am very aware of this fact

(that’s why i’ll never understand team green stans)

but george has never ever condemned his characters for finding and experiencing love outside of doing their duty.

never.

we’re not unfeeling machines that lack emotions. we’re humans who are, more often than not, led by our hearts. and grrm does a phenomenal job when creating characters, as they truly feel human.

so yeah, it’s a bit disappointing that people dumb down what is clearly a very complex situation to “cheating” (btw george himself calls rhaegar and elias relationship complex and he’s never implied that they loved each other in a romantic sense).

to reiterate, i am well aware that highborn women and men are held to different standards, however, if you have a problem with characters working through, around, and sometimes failing to overcome the social structures that cause their suffering, then you must have a major issue with george’s exploration of the human heart in conflict with itself.

george’s characters aren’t robots and that’s what makes them interesting. they do things for very human reasons. they’re biased. they’re traumatized. they’re conflicted. but they’re still reaching for a better tomorrow and they’re still trying to find happiness.

so i’ll never consider rhaegar and lyannas relationship as cheating, or something unsightly that should be scorned. for they simply dared to find and grasp love in a society that would rather shackle them to unhappy marriages, which is very commendable.

oh… and do you know what george does criticize?

political marriages lol

he makes it clear that selling women off as broodmares and forcing men into marriages they don’t want is a recipe for disaster.

of course the eventual fallouts of these relationships is super interesting to read about, but you should never ever support the systems in place and the societies that benefit from pushing people/characters into these incredibly unhealthy relationships

so while i find it interesting to read about characters navigating these relationships, i’ll always be the first person to condemn these societies for forcing this fate onto them. i’ll also always be the first person to root for characters who do their best to find happiness outside of their political/arranged marriage

sorry that i don’t condemn a character for finding love outside of a loveless marriage

instead of getting angry at rhaegar and lyanna and being very nonsensical in the main tags about it, how about you turn that anger onto the patriarchy, which is rooted in every single institution and family in westeros, the patriarchy that refuses to allow women to have the same amount of sexual autonomy as men?

(this is why i despise team green :))

[fromtheseventhhell]

The majority of Rhaegar/Lyanna stans here are minding their own business but for certain people here (especially "martell stans") is not enough

They keep bashing these characters and they are acting as if they are "oppressed" by Rhaegar's stans

It's boring

This is sooooo true, and why I find Elia/Martell stans to be so annoying even though I love several Martell characters (same with house Stark stans tbh). They love throwing stones and then hiding their hands. They put their hate in the main tags and call Rhaegar a pedophile/rapist/racist/abuser/etc., Lyanna a spoiled brat/heartless temptress, and shit talk shippers cause they think the fanon they invented justifies it but the second a Rhaelya gives a fraction of that energy back, they play the victim. Cause you're right, it's not enough for them. At the root of it, they're forever going to be mad that Rhaegar, Lyanna, and their relationship are popular + important to the story. They swear they don't care but then they never shut up about them. Just another case of people wanting to be morally superior and getting pissy when things don't go their way.

[wokedragon]

I feel like Rhaegar’s character would be waaay less hated if it weren’t for his fans. They see him as this perfect Targaryen male who did all he could to save the world and was gravely misunderstood by his time and everyone who thinks differently is wrong. When in reality he kind of sucks and had the biggest known flop in Planetos. Really, his actions directly distabilized the realm and caused the death and rape of Elia Martell, the death of their children, Lyanna’s and a lot of other people’s 😬. But that’s not very heroic is it? That’s why it had to be a great love story between him and Lyanna and Elia had to be in on all of it because if Rhaegar isn’t the perfect misunderstood hero then he’s just some crazy Targaryen blinded by his trauma and self like that caused thousands of deaths like the rest of them. I feel like the actual Rhaegar, you know the one that doesn’t sound like he was directly pulled from a YA authors debut novel, the one who has a complex relationship with his parents, with the crown, with himself….the one who can’t make a mistake, the one who cannot look back or else… is more interesting. Grey characters are in general more interesting and that’s probably why grrm writes a lot of them. He would be less hated if his fans held him accountable for all the awful things he has done and caused but oh well…

[queen-morgana91]

Damn so many Dornish fans hate the Targaryens so much when actually Dorne is the most pro-Targaryen region in the current timeline. They WANT Targaryen restoration. They WANT RHAEGAR'S son/sister/brother on the throne because they see it as the best way to avenge Elia and her children. They are not blaming Rhaegar, and that’s funny.

"We looked for Rhaegar’s sister, not his son.”— Arianne

“Daenerys Targaryen is of our blood as well. Daughter of King Aerys, Rhaegar’s sister. And she has dragons, or so the tales would have us believe.” Fire and blood. “Where is she?" - Arianne

Dornishmen are Targaryen loyalists and the revenge they want is not on Daenerys, Rhaegar or whoever else, but on the Lannisters.

“What is our heart’s desire?”

“Vengeance.” His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.”

If people let go their so called moral policing for one second and stop painting Rhaegar/Lyanna/Targaryens this cartoonish villains who gets blamed for everything bad that happened in westeros even years after their death then they'd understand how much importance they hold in asoiaf plot and the characters.