#anti-Zionism and antisemitism aren't the same thing

[news4dzhozhar]

[bijoumikhawal]

"leftists don't fall for/into right wing hate campaigns for other groups as much as they do for antisemitism" is a really funny way of broadcasting which groups you pay attention to. Anyway we all do remember V*ush and his sycophants constantly claiming "land back is a call for ethnostates" and baiting WOC to intentionally misrepresent their politics on race up to and including claiming they want white genocide, right.

Acting like somehow people on the left are often progressive about every other thing but are antisemites is absurd. It happens, but its not common. An antisemite is often also a racist, a xenophobe, religiously intolerant overall, etc. There are plenty of racist, xenophobic, shithead leftists. Anyone who's actually a leftist would know there's constant tumbling online with shithead leftists and they never have just one shithead opinion.

[fairuzfan]

the reason i shared my great-grandmother's story on here a few months ago is not for sympathy or anything, its to illustrate to you just how deeply, deeply anti-Palestinian the idea of zionism is.

i remember my grandmother, the one who watched her mother die in her home, she called us with a plain tone of voice, and she said "she asked to be buried in [her village] but of course the the zionists wouldn't let that happen." the thing that will not leave my head was the way my grandmother said it, the way it just seemed so natural and so obvious to her. my grandmother is *not* a quiet woman, she yells everything she ever says, whether happy or sad but this she said softly. like she was resigned to this, she expected this.

this woman was exiled once from her village, then again from Palestine, then again and again and again and eventually forced to live in poverty in a refugee camp, she knows the 'israeli' state more intimately than anyone i know, she knows what it will and won't allow in its genocidal apparatus and to her it was obvious that they would not respect her mother's body or last wishes. she knew that.

and i always go back to it when i see discussions on here or on twitter or in academia, like you guys (the moderates, the apologists) have never ever spoken to a nakba survivor or a naksa survivor. you don't know just how deeply its affected our families.

so when we ask you to completely reject zionism, when we demand it from allies, we aren't saying this to be stubborn or nonsensical, we're saying it because we know where zionism will lead us. we've been through the "we just want peace" and the "we need to just talk it out" phases already, how can you not think we've been through those phases after 75 years. we've had our meet and greets and our appeals and now we're at literally the worst stage of genocide against our people and you're still insisting on "talking it out" or some variation of it.

the truth of the matter is that we don't have patience for zionism anymore because look where it got us. look where we're at. even soft zionists, you need to stamp those people out from pretending they've got good points, or that you need to build community with them or whatever. we are literally at the worst part of Palestinian history ever, we need to stop pretending there are grey zones to this. Zionist apologists and the like are creating ambiguity that literally gets our families killed under the guise of "complication". I'm sick and tired of watching these same discussions over and over again about how "Israel is a result of antisemitism" when it very much is not. I'm sick of seeing people who know NOTHING about colonization push their own agendas and provide cover for zionists to do whatever they want. Just stop talking about things you don't understand because I promise you, you're directly contributing to the violence you claim to abhor.

[weemietime]

Ok so reading through some posts from some people and I've noticed a lumping in of anti-zionists and anti-semites into the same camp or framing it as only antisemites are in that camp.

which I this is unneeded like I'm blind obviously a large number of people are using anti-zionism a cover for their anti-semitic beliefs but I don't think that bad actors using this wave of criticism for Israel as a opportunity to say and doing horrifically anti-semitic thing.

just like people using this new wave of criticism toward Hamas and the various groups fighting against the IDF as a cover for their Islamophobic and anti Palestinian and anti Arab racism should not be held as the only voice in the Zionist camp.

this isn't some sort of "Hey actually all those anti semitic people are really tiny and are just a very loud minority" again like I said, I'm not blind I can see that they aren't and and they probably aren't going anywhere either but, also saying that the only way someone could find what Israel is doing is if their anti semite just wrong, like yeah Israel is often held to a higher standard for being a Jewish nation and for looking like a western (white looking) nation which is obviously wrong.

if this is anyway anti-semitic idk sorry I guess, also read that pinned post thing and yes Russia is committing a genocide and yes they should be booted from the UNSC

So I don't read this as being antisemitic in and of itself, under the assumption you're engaging in good faith. There are ways to be antizionist that aren't antisemitic, but the vast majority of uneducated people with whom I have a problem with saying "I'm not antisemitic, just antizionist" is that in the next sentence they'll be demanding Israelis must go back to Poland or else be complicit in genocide.

Really, it's stuff like that which I focus on. People just asking questions or offering legitimate criticism aren't being antisemitic. I spend a lot of my time criticizing Israel for shit as well. A woman I really respect used to work at the military prison and always said, "people think you should be hard on your enemies when they do wrong. No, we should be harder on our friends." and I agree with that.

Is it fair? To always have to be the better person and always be the peacemaker and always do the right thing while people give our enemies a free pass to literally kill us openly in the streets? Nope, it's not fair. But we knew this when we accepted the Torah at Sinai. Life as a Jewish person isn't fair, and our obligations are many and often painful. Is it just, though? I'd say yes. We must continue to try and extend our hand to our enemies.

And with regards to the Russia genocide question there's actually a good reason why I use this as an example. 1) let's say we actually put Russia and Israel on the same playing ground. Israel just attacked Gaza for no reason to annex a bunch of land because Palestinians are really Jews and Israel is entitled to Gaza.

Even if we accept this at face value, the way that people talk about Israel and Jews is fundamentally different than the way people talk about Russia and Russians. It's the double standard that makes it antisemitism, not the actions people are saying we've done.

Even if Israel was 100% unequivocally the villain, which I don't believe is true because quite frankly they weren't the belligerents and never have been, it would still be a double standard. Because the fact of the matter is, people didn't accuse Russia of genocide and people didn't call for Putin to be ejected. People didn't protest en masse and shut down universities and refuse to be friends with Russians.

And 2) In fact people spout actual Russia propaganda and sign off with "shout out to Joseph Stalin" out one side their mouth while the other says "Genocide is bad." Stalin is responsible for killing at least 9 million people, so it's not killing they have a problem with.

[beardedmrbean]

"Michel Friedman, a prominent German-French publicist and former deputy chair of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, described Musk’s actions – at an event after Donald Trump’s swearing in as US president – as a disgrace and said Musk had shown that a “dangerous point for the entire free world” had been reached.

Elon Musk appears to make back-to-back fascist salutes at inauguration rally

Friedman, who descends from a family of Polish Jews, hardly any of whom survived the Holocaust, told the daily Tagesspiegel he had been shocked when watching the inauguration live on television, adding that as far as he was concerned Musk had unambiguously performed the Nazi “Heil Hitler” salute, despite attempts to downplay it."

When someone who descends from a family that was killed by the Nazi party says a descendant of Nazis sympathizers did a Nazi salute... You do lean towards "Yeah, that's a Nazi Sieg Heil. Not as perfect as they were. But is one"

I'm going with the ADL on it, not an individual because you can find individuals that are upset about anything and everything.

The ADL is the organization that people go to for what is and isn't Antisemitic, at least they used to until they decided that they didn't like that the ADL said that 'from the river to the sea' is a call to genocide and 'anti-zionism is antisemitism' among other things that people have been saying aren't over the last year and a half.

I personally think they go overboard on a lot of things, including having things like the OK hand sign on their list so if they can let this go so can I.

I'm pretty solidly on record as not being a fan of the guy so it's not about him, I'm just really tired of people flipping their shit over things like this while

This happened at about the exact same time.

How about that one?

Or any of the other of the litany of incidents that have happened over the last year and a half?

It's incredible to see people caring about the safety of the Jewish people again, the timing is just the questionable part currently.

As for musk's thing, I am deferring to the experts on it.

I trust the ADL to go overboard on things, and am listening to those Jewish voices as well as the voices of Jewish people I know.

[a-very-tired-jew]

The server closes, but the antisemitism it gave is forever

By the time this gets posted from my queue the Dropout Discord server will have officially closed/froze (May 26th, 2024). However, the looming freeze hasn't dissuaded any of the users in a particular channel from posting their wild conspiracies and outright falsities. Take this one that happened on May 24th.

Fig. 1. User states that Jews should be safe around the world and Zionism was invented by anti-semites (their word) to get the Jews out of Europe. Let's break down this picture. It's the same thing we have heard from goys time and time again about this entire issue. Jews should be safe around the world and we should make the world safer for them so they don't need Israel. Here's the problem...we've tried that multiple times. In fact, there was a whole ideology opposite of Zionism called Bundism that pushed for that very thing. Guess what happened? Bundists were exiled, tortured, imprisoned, cleansed, and killed. That's not to say don't make the world a safer place for us. We'd like it to be. But historically speaking, this sort of action hasn't been consistent. Now, the second part of their post: "Zionism was originally invented by anti-semites who wanted Jews out of Europe". Imagine being so confidently wrong in something. Not only does a quick fact check tell you you're wrong, but demonstrably so. The "Father of Zionism" is Theodor Herzl who helped formalize an ideology that was already present in Judaism. His actions were inspired by the Dreyfus Affair. If you don't know what this is, a Jewish officer of the French army was falsely accused of being a spy and imprisoned. The actual culprit was identified and the French army suppressed the evidence and acquitted him, he was not Jewish. Throughout this time there was rampant antisemitism in French society, which had previously been viewed as a liberal bastion of acceptance. If this place that intellectuals viewed as tolerant of differing views, creeds, religions, and so on could become virulently antisemitic, then were Jews actually accepted? That is the underlying thought that led to the formalization and creation of political Zionism as we know it (albeit in a very brief and generalized summary). Hell, this person probably doesn't even know what Labor Zionism is and it would probably break their brain. The most progressive societies in the world can say they're safe for Jews to exist in, but they will turn at the drop of a hat.

So when someone like this says that Zionism was made by anti-semites (and they're using the hyphenated incorrect term which is indicative of other issues) I can't help but think that they know next to nothing about the conflict outside of what they've consumed these past months. The likelihood is that this particular person has only engaged with antisemitic content because that misinformation they're spreading is something that only exists in those circles. It's antisemitic conspiracy wrapped in anti-Zionism. It's reminiscent of things the Soviets would say about Israel while actively killing the Jews in their country. They then followed it with this.

Fig. 2. Same user generalizes a whataboutism regarding safety for everyone, then specifically asks why no one prioritizes the Palestinians in these conversations. In this photo they ask why do we assume that the world is going to hate Jews forever? Because it has. Antisemitism is one of the oldest forms of hatred towards another group. Jewish history is marred with repeated incidents of cleansing, torture, imprisonment, exile, and killing. In no century has there ever been a time when Jews just existed peacefully with our own autonomy. And yet someone like this, who has shown their whole ass with their ignorance of what Zionism is and its origin, asks "why aren't we talking about the Palestinians in these conversations?" Because there is not a specific word that describes hatred of Palestinians like there is for Jews. Nor do they have thousands of years of history regarding that hatred. It's a false equivalency and a pitiful whataboutism to try and make conversations about antisemitism into something they're not. However, considering this user writes "anti-semite/semitism", I would not be surprised if they are of the "Palestinians are Semites" mindset (which myself and others have gone over in other posts, and even the server itself addressed months prior). We can talk about Palestinians and the dangers they face. We can talk about the rights and country they should have. We can talk about how other countries in the region keep them in camps and don't let them become full citizens. We can talk about all the issues surrounding them as a people. But not when we're talking about antisemitism, because it's not about them. The fact that this user is trying to make it that way and was not confronted in any capacity about their outright misinformation and manipulation says everything about the Dropout Discord Palestine channel that you need to know.

[smile-files]

i think the main issue in arguing with zionists is that, well, they believe in zionism! if israel did deserve to exist, then the genocide and injustice in palestine could be argued for (not like it should be, but it certainly could) -- and zionists believe israel deserves to exist.

i, unfortunately, have a large amount of experience interacting (personally) with zionism and zionists. most of those i've talked to feel for the palestinians, and the violence they are facing, but they fail to realize (or they staunchly deny) the very, very active part israel and the IDF have had in that -- and how it's representative of what the nation has always done.

at the same time, they focus more on israeli hostages than palestinian ones -- and i know, of course, that these zionist jews i've interacted with are either israeli or have loved ones in israel, and so have a very personal stake in the safety of israeli hostages (which may very well be friends or family members), but i find it strange how much emphasis they put on hamas' cruelty in taking hostages while the IDF is doing the same thing (in essence; the exact details of who's doing it worse are important to note, but not relevant right now, because folks should realize that their side is being at least as cruel as the enemy's).

recently i was drawn into an argument with an israeli zionist (who, unfortunately, is very close to the action and tragedy by being israeli), and she was incredibly offended by my anti-zionism and my opposition to israel's abject cruelty to palestinian citizens, as it seemed (to her) like i was bypassing the cruelty hamas has enacted on israeli citizens -- which is very telling. i've noticed that we as jews have the tendency, whatever the situation may be, of focusing more on our pain than the pain of others, even if we are the ones hurting them. that person has every reason to be scared and hurt, and i'd be lying if i said her response wasn't at least somewhat sympathetic, but her pain in this horrible, violent conflict does not invalidate the pain on the other side. jews, throughout this recent crisis, have consistently not talked in depth about the constant losses in palestine -- am i suddenly being callous by focusing on those losses, and not our own? (YOUR PAIN AND THEIRS AREN'T MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, YOU DOLT! sorry...)

because it all comes down to believing in israel! my mom has always told me about how beautiful it is there, about her time living on a kibbutz... and sure, it might be nice. i can't argue with that. but why is it that our nationalism for israel is so strong, so virulent? i have not seen patriots as loyal for any other country. and when you criticize israel, israelis feel like you're criticizing their entire existence -- and many non-israeli jews do, as well. because zionism has been built so deep into the modern religion! it's made to be a necessary piece! belief in it is the default!

and, from the inside looking in, i can't be surprised that many jews take anti-zionism as being antisemitic -- because, to them, israel and zionism stand as the pinnacle of safety and support for the jewish people. it is impossible to argue with them about anything above that base layer, as the base layer itself serves as a foundation: so long as a jew thinks that israel is right, deserved, and necessary, no proof will sway them into hating israel. it's just impossible, and that's very frustrating.

for me in particular, i find it very frustrating, as this single idea has turned so many people i know to support a genocidal entity. they believe in and support israel, so they stand with it now -- even if they condemn its current actions, they neglect how those actions are just an extension of its inherent existence -- whether they think israel's doing the right thing or wrong thing right now, they don't really care at the end of the day, because israel, to them, is necessary in keeping the jewish people alive. they stand with it, thinking that jews can only stand at all if they do.

but a genocidal crutch is no crutch at all: it only breaks us more. zionist jews make me so mad, and the worst part is that i could never express that to them in a way they'll understand.

[edgylesbiangurl]

Please look at what Sharon Osbourne recently posted....It's time that we in the Metal community collectively accept that The Osbournes aren't good people in the slightest no matter how influential Ozzy has been for the scene, Kelly also recently promoted Ozempics and has made questionable remarks in the past not to mention her being the spoiled and rich equivalent of a an edgy "NLOG" back when she as a teenager, this might be the least important thing between everything I mentioned but I always found it rather cringy the way she acted as if she is not on the same level as Paris Hilton, if you're participating in the Blockout2024 thing I suggest blocking all of them on social media.

Also Doro commented her post, finding out she is also a zionist was genuinely disappointing for me, she was one of the first women in metal to reach mainstream success along with Girlschool, we can't have shit these days, even female artists end up being problematic and disappointing you, but I'm personally not surprised by her position considering she is German and Germany is directly involved in the genocide and is silencing any support of Palestine with its laws that are supposed to fight antisemitism but are just islamophobic and anti-Palestinian in nature, which shows Germany never recovered from its past like they made us believe, let's also add the fact that a far-right party like AFD is currently rising in the country, both Italy and Germany have currently reverted to their state in the 30s/40s.

At least Tanya the original bassist of Kittie before Talena commented this under Sharon's post, she has posted about Palestine before and has said that as an half-jewish woman she fully condemns zionism. I hope that now during their comeback Kittie's current lineup will also speak up about it in some way, they showed that they care about many issues in the past like BLM, Feminism and Indigenous people rights, I hope that they will do the same as Evanescence did in 2020, use their platform and voice for to speak up for an important cause during their comeback, I would be so happy if they did.

[theconstitutionisgayculture]

I have no idea if you have seen the same, but I keep seeing posts by lefties saying that "antisemitism and anti-Zionist" aren't the same thing. But they never say what the fuck a Zionist actually is.

That's not helpful! It just cones across as a way to hate "some" Jews, but not ones they personally approve of.

Zionism is nothing more than the idea that a Jewish nation is necessary for the survival of the Jewish people. That's it. That's the big bad Zionism.

But you're right, the vast, vast, vast majority of "anti-Zionists" are anti-semites. They want Israel destroyed and every Jew in it dead or forcibly displaced from their homeland. Things they call genocide and imperialism when a western nation does it, but it's fine when Muslims do it because they're brown and they're doing it for religious reasons.

[cosmicjoke]

I had a bit of a personal question and I was wondering if you’d be okay answering. It’s okay if not! I believe you’ve said you’re Jewish, right? I’m Jewish and I’ve been having a difficult time with my own family and Jewish community supporting Israel and it’s really awful. I feel isolated from all sides, with my Jewish community alienating me for supporting Palestine and then the simultaneous rise in anti-Jewish sentiment. Have you had similar experiences and how have you been dealing with it?

Hi there, and thank you for reaching out with something so personal.

It's a really difficult situation. The Jewish community is deeply indoctrinated, it seems, in Zionism. It's something that gets taught to Jews from a young age, that you HAVE to support Israel, and if you don't, you're a bad Jew, or a self-hating Jew, etc... Jewish people in general tend to be very clannish, largely I suppose because of the deep history of oppression they've faced, they've always felt a need to close ranks and are, in my experience, distrustful of outsiders. I know that's a stereotype, but again, in my experience with other Jews, it's true. They often want their children to marry other Jews, for example. My father isn't Jewish, and my mother was, so right there, I'm coming from a different scenario than you would typically find within the Jewish community. My family has always been very open and not beholden to tradition though. But my brother is gay, and he ended up with another Jew, and his family is extremely, stereotypically Jewish. It was almost comically important to them that their son be with another Jew.

So any kind of dissenting opinion coming from within their own ranks is no doubt going to cause a horrible stir and accusations of betrayal are going to get tossed around. I haven't even brought up my opinions about the situation between Israel and Palestine with the family of my brother's partner. I don't see them often, which may have spared me, because I think it undoubtedly would be brought up if I did, and I wouldn't be able to hold my tongue, and just from my experience with them, I have no doubt they would accuse me of all the same things it sounds like your family is doing to you.

One of the worst parts about Israel and what they're doing is that they're single-handedly making the situation for Jews all across the world WORSE. They aren't making things safer for Jews. They're instead giving people reason to hate Jews. Which is really what Israel wants. The entire concept of Zionsim is predicated on antisemitism. They want Jews to feel unsafe everywhere else so that they then feel the need to flee to Israel, which in turn bolsters their population. They want to create a purely Jewish state, and through sheer numbers overwhelm and drive all the Arabs out. It's pure ethno-supremacy. The horrible thing is that so many Jews are just blind to the fact that they've now become the very thing they themselves once fell victim to. I've never seen a more Nazi-centric regime than the one in Israel, and the radical, frothing at the mouth Zionism you see from large sects of the Jewish community is nothing but pure hysteria and indoctrination. Just like the Nazi movement and party. You would think they would know better, but they don't. It just demonstrates the stupidity of human beings. Doomed to make the same mistake over and over.

So you aren't alone, believe me. It takes a lot of courage and backbone to stand up to the pressure to just conform and regurgitate the same opinion as everyone else in your community. But there's also a lot of Jews who aren't buying into the radicalization and understand that what Israel is and stands for is genuinely an affront to every struggle and hardship the Jews have historically had to overcome. So I would just say, take heart in the fact that you KNOW you're right, and no amount of badgering or bullying or moralizing from your family or community will change that fact. They're wrong, and you're right, and YOU have the moral high-ground. They're on the wrong side of history, as they say, and the shame will ultimately be theirs to contend with, not yours. You do the Jewish community and people proud by standing up to the idea of Israel and Zionism. Just always remember that. It's the people that bully you and harass you for it that do the Jewish community shame.

[papirouge]

I can’t stop crying, I’ve lost more friends in Gaza… yet so many Christian evangelicals have yet to even mention that Christians in Gaza exist. Or if they do, it’s criticism and blaming Gaza for the genocide that’s happening. It’s as if they fully believe it’s a Jew/Muslim conflict when it’s not. It’s an idf-Hamas conflict.

I lost contact with one of my friends and haven’t been able to get any info. The terror keeps coming. And there was no where to go, it hurts. And I’m so angry at that Christians in the west just ignoring it all

.......... I'm really sorry anon...

I've never felt that powerless in my life, and my heart aches for all those people being murdered before our eyes, and the Christian community either condoning such heinous act or turning the head around... They will have to take accountability for their cowardice....

The body of Christ is ONE. If someone cuts your leg or hand, you will definitely feel it and your whole body is going to react to it. But Western Christians? They look away like the cowards that they are. Mind you, they are the same ones that are so suuuuure to resist the antichrist when he will come. Meanwhile, they are unable to voice the slightest support to our Christian brothers in Palestine out of fear... What kind of clownery is that? At least, I don't mind people refusing to cover any sort of world news bc they are consistent in their lane, but I'm thinking about all those Christians who have aaaaaalways so many things to say abt the latest stupid stunt in the news, the wokes, feminists, liberals... Suddenly they are VERY quiet. That's a choice. They are disgusting.

Even the anti Muslim/let's protect Christianism from Islam uwu Christian YouTuber squad are pulling out video exPoSinG Hamas while not saying a single word abt the Christian casualties (David Wood, Apostate Prophet, etc.) They are full of it, and I will never ever again take them seriously in their defense of Christianity in middle east when those ghouls don't even have a word to say about our Palestinian Christian brothers dying under Israeli strikes and PLEADING for our attention and prayers... They only care about Christians dying because of ISLAM, when they die for any other reason, they will defiect. Like, yeah, Hamas sucks - we been knew. What's the point of making 1 video a day about them? In what way does it remotely dismiss the atrocity of whatever's happening in Gaza???

It's so sick to see pro Israel constantly move the goalpost to paint themselves as the only victims, and worse, downplaying what's happening in Gaza.

They will deflect on antisemitism in pro Palestine protests (while acting like the very same didn't happen in pro Israel protests with the most rabid islamophobic genocidal crap), semantics about what Zionism is and whether it's antisemitism (meanwhile palestinians are literally DYING), that they don't care about Gaza as long as the hostage aren't fred (when if they actually really cared abt the hostages they wouldn't encourage Israel to bomb Gaza bc the actual hostages risk dying out there along the Hamas...🤦🏾‍♀️), or shouting "free Gaza from Hamas !!" as if any of that justified bombing civilians... oh and let's not forget the feminist/liberal edge of Israel defense with the "Palestianian are sexist/homophobic so there's no point defending them" stupid narrative....

I think the reason pro Israel are so bad in their rhetoric is that for years they've been used to leverage their Jewishness to get empathy and immunity against accountability.

But it's over now. We have social medias and we can witnessing in real time the horror of Tsahal actions. How they aren't any morally better than Hamas. We've seen the Israeli mocking Palestianians nit having water or food...

"you were quiet when the Hamas assassinated Israelis" we were quiet because this operation went so fast and that Israel quickly retaliated. There was no way to stop the Hamas bc NO ONE knew it was coming, so what did they expect us to do?? Just bc we don't say anything doesn't mean we approve. Do you see people condemn suicide/terrorist attacks whenever they happen?? IMO there wouldn't be such an outrage is Israel left it at that and didn't go overboard with launching a whole war against Gaza. The reason the world is siding with Palestinian is because we are witnessing the ongoing massacre of population with the actual (political and/or economical) backup of our respective countries for DAYS now. Unlike the Hamas attack, there are ways to stop it. The Hamas didn't cut the water & food supply of Israelis. Palestinians aren't clowning on social medias the Jewish civilians who were killed by the Hamas. That's why the world is shocked and is siding with Palestine and is slowly but surely getting fed up with the cognitive dissonance of Israelis crying oppression while acting like soulless ghouls. Crying antisemitism isn't fooling anyone anymore.

[myfemmeb0yfriend]

Hey, idk if my ask got received, just in case it didn't here's the thing again, have a great day

hey there, fellow lesbian here. Little rant up coming, about a few things on your blog. Please, please, read it all the way through and the article I linked before you call me a Nazi. (I may have German heritage, but we left to the US in the late 1890s, I'm German and Polish American, if you're curious) I put way too much thought into this.

So, I do really like your blog, and I like a lot of other blogs that kinda post the same stuff about Gaza and Israel every once in a while. I don't agree with what Israel is doing. It's abhorrent. But so is the hate *you* guys are spreading. Below: My thoughts and rant. (yeah I commented this like yesterday, but I wanted to make sure you and other could see it, so I shot in an ask.)

Uhm...guys...this isn't the answer. First statements: I'm not Jewish. I'm not Zionist. I'm not Muslim. Raised kinda Christian, like I'm baptized, my family rarely goes to church, and we are very open and affirming. (two pride flags in the sanctuary, open gay members, we do ceremonies, all that jazz)

However i think neither of them are right in the first place. Israel, yes, they're the aggressor. But the way the world has responded is shocking. I don't support Israel's actions. I don't support Palestine. But I scroll through these blogs and the amount of hate towards people who aren't directly involved in the conflict, from people it's lives are not going to affect is crazy! Comparing Zionism to Nazis??? Wtf??? I think y'all don't know what Zionism actually is.

This, is taken from annefrankhouse.com. (https://www.annefrank.org/en/topics/antisemitism/are-all-jews-zionists/#:~:text=Zionism%20is%20about%20the%20pursuit,inhabitants%20of%20Israel%20are%20Jewish.)

"Many Palestinians and supporters of the Palestinian cause no longer distinguish between the words 'Jew', 'Israeli' and 'Zionist'. That is not correct. Most Jews do not live in Israel. Not every inhabitant of Israel is Jewish; there are also many non-Jews living in Israel. And not all Jewish Israelis are 'settlers' who want to conquer more and more Palestinian land. The vast majority of Jews believe that the State of Israel should continue to exist. But many Jews, both living in Israel and elsewhere, are in favour of a Palestinian state alongside Israel as a possible solution to the conflict. To cut a long story short: although many Jews identify with Zionism, there are still many different points of view. That is reason enough not to mix up the words 'Jew', 'Israelis' and 'Zionists'."

so, what is wrong with wanting to have a state, a free state, where your religion is respected and your culture is celebrated? Wouldn't anyone want that? Yes, Israel's done some bad shit, I ain't denying it. But that is NO reason to go full anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic. From reading your posts and such, I get the feeling some people don't know what they're getting into.

Also, stop. Stop calling them Nazis. As much as you may hate acknowledging this, this is how Holocaust denial starts. This is how more people, end up dead. So, before you 'pick a side', do your research. Know what that phrase you're chanting at protest actually means. (some of them mean kill all Jews) And know this; what is happening in Rafah and Gaza is wrong. What is happening around the world is wrong. But by only increasing the hate? You're making it worse. So, please try to voice your concerns and be open about your thoughts, without spreading more hate! Anti-Semitism is already a huge problem in the US. We don't need to be making it worse.

And for the people calling for the dissolution of Israel? Where tf are all those people gonna go? Cause you've made it clear you don't want them, so for many citizens, you'd be creating another massive Human Rights issue.

For the people calling Zionists Nazis? What the ACTUAL FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? I'm sorry, yes, terrible things are happening. But that does NOT, AND WILL NEVER give you the right to call them Nazis. Six million people. No. Just no. That's near as bad as denying the Holocaust happened.

**YOU MAY NOT LIKE ISRAEL, YOU MAY OPENOY DISAGREE AND PROTEST THEM. BUT THAT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TI DISGRACE THE DEATHS OF SIX MILLION PEOPLE BY CALLING THEIR DESCENDANTS NAZIS.**

And even if you're taking this from a strategic standpoint, the Israeli army is not using tactics and methods the the Nazis did. They're completely different. So please, I beg of you, think about what you're posting. Don't call people Nazis if they aren't fucking Neo Nazis.

I hope you actually read this. I hope you read the article I sent from annefrankhouse.org. And please, think about what I've said.

Sincerely,

-a concerned Bleh-345.

you are right. no one should be called neo nazis if they aren't nazis. i apologize for the harm i've caused by spreading this narrative around. thank you for taking the time and writing this out. i haven't outright called the jewish people nazis but i will look into my blog and delete any reblogs that even feel like an anti-semitic post. it isn't activism by ignoring the harm caused by the holocaust while advocating for the palestinian people. it's ignorant, inconsiderate, and dumb, to put it bluntly. i am so very sorry for any negative feelings i've caused by my own negligence. (sorry if this seems half-assed, i hope it doesn't come off that way. i am so down to have a further conversation with you though if you'd like.)

[reachfolk]

there's many layers as to why this line of thinking ("but if palestine is free then the israelis will be in so much danger!") is vile and evil, but i think a big part of why it's so widespread is because the general public is so firmly convinced of the idea that arabs are incapable of being rational, even if they aren't aware of that underlying belief.

i'm talking specifically about the average joe who doesn't involve themselves in global politics at all, doesn't even so much as know what zionism is, etc. but this person could still hear this argument in passing and think to themself, "yeah that makes sense." but the thing is, it doesn't make sense. multicultural communities have thrived a million times over throughout history and throughout the planet. so this idea can only ever make sense if you, on some level, believe that arabs are brute savages with no capacity for reason, compassion, diplomacy, or intelligence of any kind. you're being the useful idiot, peddling genocidal rhetoric because you haven't unpacked your own biases enough to see through it.

we're not some lesser evolved subspecies. we're not somehow intrinsically or culturally less capable of governing our own countries. we do not need you stepping in and taking control to keep us in line. we deserve the same basic respect and dignity as anyone else.

the idea that palestinians are just itching to do a reverse ethnic cleansing is completely bizarre and not at all rooted in reality. most people who are telling you that the anti-zionist movement has an antisemitism problem are either very explicitly trying to manipulate you or are misguided themselves. when in doubt, listen to palestinians. i've never in my life known a single palestinian to ever express that kind of ideology. the few times i've seen even any antisemitic rhetoric come up, palestinians were the first to call it out. this whole idea is genuinely so overblown. it's a problem entirely made up in order to discredit the cause and to make potential allies hesitate in joining.

When South Africa dismantled apartheid, it did not end with the expulsion of all white South Africans. They became part of the new South Africa, just without the criminal discriminatory oligarchic powers the apartheid goverment had. When Bolivia recognized its indigenous heritage and became a plurinational state, it did not mean that people of European descent were expelled in masse. It meant the recognition of the previously discriminated indigenous and mestizo people of Bolivia and the beginning of a path of integration and revalidation.

What I mean is that it's ridiculous to think that decolonization inherently means mass suffering and relocation, that's what colonization does. Decolonization is recognizing the crimes of colonization, but more importantly, material, political and social steps to give power and self-determination to the exploited native people who were victims of colonialism and imperialism.

In multicultural societies, you don't go like in that Peter Griffin meme with a skin tone chart and saying 'well, you go back to Europe, you go back to Africa, you stay here'. You build a new society on the paradigm of dignity for exploited people and equality under the law. People are acting like this is some sort of fantastic utopia instead of real initiatives that were done in living memory, with successes and failures, as all such initiatives have. One must ask why are some so insistent that multicultural societies can't thrive, especially when for most of history, societies were indeed like that. Consider why you think like that.

[good-boy-ren]

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◆ NO minors, period. this is not an rp blog; do not solicit me for nsft DMs. if you're publicly anti-nsft and/or anti-kink, even if you have a secret nsft blog, this isn't the place for you. ◆ i’m a staunch lgbtqia+ inclusionist, including mspec lesbians and xenogenders and conflicting labels; if it's in good faith, chase your bliss! neither zionism nor antisemitism welcome. villains are fun, but violently bigoted or fascist f/os will get you blocked. ◆ if you have made some kind of public statement about finding dono asks annoying, assuming they're all bots, and blocking all of them without distinction, i don't want you here. ◆ if you d.oxx and threaten to send p.olice to a black person because they were "being mean" online over a selfship, i'll block you and anyone else who signs off on your behavior, as i consider that a threat on someone's life. ◆ i dislike the fetishization of CSA, incest, abuse, assault, etc. difficult subjects NEED to exist in fiction, but there's a line between exploring a topic and getting off to it, and i choose not to surround myself with the latter. rpf also makes me uncomfortable; it's dehumanizing. if a blog includes any of these things, i'll simply block and move on.

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[yesplsnothankyou]

How to be anti-zionist without being antisemitic

YES anti-Zionism is not antisemitic and it's important to oppose genocide, specifically the genocide of Palestinian people by the Israeli government because it's happening right now. However comma,

[critical thinking test!] two things can be true at the same time.

Here's another thing that can be true at the same time:

If you oppose Israel's occupation of Palestine but you don't oppose the occupation and colonialism that western and predominantly white countries enact on many other countries, you aren't anti-colonialism you're just anti-Jewish. You're pro-imperialism when rich white english-speaking countries do it, and anti-imperialism when other countries use those very same tactics.

You are not immune to propaganda. America has a vested interest in making you side with Israel because America has a long history of doing exactly what Israel's government is doing right now and if they denounce Israel, they're admitting that what they do is wrong.

[peachfuzz-jpg]

First: I in no way disagree that what is happening in Gaza is despicable and Israel must stop.

But the map you reblogged from 1947-- you are not including critical history. And I don't just mean YOU, I mean in general, people are not discussing the creation of Israel.

It was not "colonized" by Jewish people. It was created by western nations (they are the ones who decided where it would go, not the Jews) because a) they felt badly for ignoring the Holocaust but b) they still didn't want an influx of Jews.

And the Jews couldn't go home. Of course they went to somewhere that was supposed to safe for them after the Holocaust, somewhere that they were promised they could actually exist. Anti-Semitism has been around as long as the Jewish people; maybe they could find one place without it?

Zionism is wrong and bad. But there are several things to remember. First most Jews aren't Zionists. Second, in the US, for instance, there are literally more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones, either because they believe having all Jews gathered in Israel will bring about end times or because they straight up want Jewish people gone from the country. Third, while what is happening to the Palestinians is undeniably horrific, no one is denying that, that is simply not the focus of this post, anti-Semitism is rising quickly and is extremely dangerous. Innocent people around the world are getting killed because people are conflating Israel and Jews, Zionists and Jews, colonizers and Jews-- right now it actually is important when discussing this to be specific, and to say that this is a minority led by a horrible government and perpetrated by the IDF, and it does not represent the Jewish people. Because people who just see something like that map with no context won't know that, and that's just more people who have a new anti-Semitic (false) belief.

So please, when you post about Palestine, remember to have nuance, because they are not the only innocent people affected.

Thank you for taking the time to write this in a thoughtful and respectful manner, I appreciate it and I respect you for that.

I agree with your points regarding antisemitism and zionism.

I’d like to start by saying that in no way do I support or harbor any anti semitic sentiments, it is abhorrent and I agree with you that it is extremely dangerous. Zionism does not = Judaism. And you are absolutely right that you cannot say that the government of Israel represents the views of the Jewish people, in the same way that in our countries we would say that the government does not represent the people.

Both antisemitism and islamophobia have been on the rise, violent hate crimes being perpetrated against innocent people who end up paying the price.

I agree with you that nuance is required as we should never promote hatred. Peace and justice should always be the goal.

All religions promote peace. Jews, Muslims, Christians and other religions have peacefully coexisted in the land for centuries. As we know it is not a religious dispute but mostly about the way the land was split.

Coming back to the map from 1947 that I reblogged, it depicts the proposed splitting of the land by the United Nations where they divided the land and decided the borders, and so you are absolutely right in the sense that the divisions for Israel were created by western countries. If we go further back to 1917 the Balfour Declaration was proposed by the British where they voiced support for a “national home”for Jewish people, the British then handed over the splitting of Palestine over to the United Nations.

I hear where you are coming from that in fact this land division was started by West ultimately.

In the corner of the image it states that the “majority report of United Nations Special Committee on Palestine recommended that Palestine be divided…”, so if I have misunderstood what you have said or missed the point please do let me know and I mean that sincerely.

Again also in general with respect to anything in life I’m here to keep learning and I know that this topic is vast, nuanced and there is so much history behind it that I can’t just condense it down into a few sentences. That doesn’t mean that I can’t keep learning and educating myself about it so if I have said anything incorrect or misinformed please do let me know.