#anti willabeth

[zalrb]

for your recent ask on how to build relationships in movies where you used willabeth as an example i was just thinking of them as i read ur post lmao! what do u think are some underrated aspects of their relationship in the films ? and if you had to pick a favorite film of the potc trilogy based on just willabeth, which would you pick?

Oh, yay! A Willabeth ask!

AWE automatically wins on "At Wit's End" (aka "Will and Elizabeth's love theme") alone. That is the soundtrack to a cosmic, epic, transcendental, soul-moving, earth-shattering love story, that is the epitome of a romantic composition, it is everything. Like just listen.

But I mean, the scenes that they have in this movie?

I'm not sure that there's anything that shippers find underrated about them, it would just be in response to Sparrabeth shippers or people who are anti-Willabeth, which I just don't find merits a response but something I do quite enjoy about the Willabeth love story is the role Jack plays in it and how his respective bonds with Will and Elizabeth actually reinforce that love story:

Like, Jack helps Will come to terms with his parentage and history

and therefore who he is and Will, in turn, saves Jack from the gallows.

Elizabeth has faith in Jack, tells him he’s a good man, helps him see the morality of situations

and Jack does prove her right in Dead Man’s Chest by coming back to help the crew but I think the most significant way he proves her right is by going against a desire he wanted for all of At World’s End so he can do right by Will (and it actually goes further than his desire throughout At World’s End but to a fundamental passion like he sold his soul to Davy Jones to get the Pearl, that’s how much he loves the sea)

and then you had Jack speaking to Elizabeth’s desire for freedom

and encourages her obtainment of that freedom, of that agency, of that power

which ultimately leads back to her choosing to love and be with Will

which, despite what antis say, isn't a regression. The trilogy begins with seeing her discomfort in "polite society" and feeling pressured into doing what's expected i.e. an engagement to Norrington

which includes hiding her fascination with pirates as well as her feelings for Will

the two things are interconnected. In fact, when we see her being chastised for not behaving the way she should, it's when she's too intimate with Will

Her interest in pirates is signified with her keeping Will's medallion

her choosing Will is also her choosing her own freedom

Will even teaches her how to fight

and throughout the trilogy, it's them discovering more facets of themselves i.e. Will reunites with his father, Elizabeth actually gets to be a pirate but what even got them on those journeys was trying to find/help the other so they can be together

and those layers just bring them back together stronger. This has always been the point

This also isn't exactly underrated but I find when I go into the tag, there's a lot of emphasis on what Will does for Elizabeth, how he supports her, how in love with her he is, how devoted to her he is and I completely understand why but also Elizabeth's devotion to Will deserves a spotlight as well.

Going to fight undead pirates alone to save Will

Being both surprised and upset at Will even considering that she could be in love with Jack

Giving away the entire plan because she couldn't feign disinterest when Sao Feng acted as though he'd stab Will

Having to literally be carried away by Jack when Will was stabbed

Even the smaller, in between things like Will shouting at Elizabeth to shoot at the barrels of rum but her refusing because he was still caught in the net.

I just love them so much.

[guardian-angel12]

Fandoms

Guardians of the Galaxy

Marvel (like general Avengers and non-space stuff)

The Walking Dead

Longmire

Star Wars

Once Upon a Time

Pirates of the Caribbean

Throne of Glass

Movies I like

Young Guns

Tombstone

Taken

Lord of the Rings/Hobbit

Extraction

Favorite Characters:

MCU:

Yondu Udonta

Kraglin Obfonteri

Rocket Raccoon

Thor Odinson

Gamora

TWD:

Daryl Dixon

Merle Dixon

Michonne Hawthorn

Maggie Greene-Rhee

Glenn Rhee

Bob Stookey

Hershel Greene

Tyreese Williams

Carol Peltier

POTC:

Jack Sparrow

Elizabeth Swann

OUAT

Regina Mills

Rumplestiltskin/Mr. Gold

Killian Jones

Robin Hood

Longmire

Henry Standing Bear

Vic Moretti

Cady Longmire

Star Wars:

Zeb Orellios

Ahsoka Tano

Cara Dune

Sergent Hunter

Captain Rex

Plo Koon

Hera Syndulla

I ship__

Rexsoka

Starmora

Kragula

Longmoretti/Waltoria

CaptainSwan

HoodMills

Sparrabeth

Kanera

Caradin

Brutasha

Glaggie

Richonne

Anti/I do not and will not ship__

Anti Kragdu, that's literally shipping a father and son.

anti Caryl, just no

anti fosterson, Thor deserves better

anti swanqueen, they're both taken, and bad ship altogether. you realize Regina is Emmas step grandmother right?

anti kallezeb, the fact that people pay so little attention as to not know Zeb is straight....

anti Phee x Tech or whatever the ship name is

anti Willabeth, Will is an ass and Elizabeth is better with Jack.

anti Roquill

I don’t know if I’m totally anti, but I don’t really like Starbula

anti ANY clones shipped with clones. Absolutely NO clonecest

[ghostlybelladonnas]

i hate the notion that ever since elizabeth married will she’s been subjected to practical “wives’ work” at her own home while will gets to have adventures and her own son chases after him instead of staying with her. in a way it’s horribly symbolic: jack was the one who cut her out of her corset, introduced her to piracy on a literal different island, while when she marries will she’s subjected to being the very thing she hated: corsets and plain life.

[skarletterambles]

Pirates of the Caribbean 5

I just got back from seeing Dead Men Tell No Tales.  I have thoughts.  Quite a few of them, actually.

I should preface this review by giving a bit of background on my involvement with this franchise.  I saw the first PotC movie in the theater seven times.  I saw Dead Man’s Chest three or four times and loved it.  I saw At World’s End exactly once, hated it with the passion of a thousand burning suns, and never saw it again.

I was--and am--a hardcore Sparrabeth shipper.  The canon status of Willabeth only explains part of my disillusionment with the franchise, however.  My biggest problem was how Elizabeth had an amazing character arc over three films, going from a prim-and-proper governor’s daughter to the ass-kicking Pirate King, pursuing her dreams in defiance of society’s expectations, outwitting both the EITC and legendary pirates, leading an armada in battle...and then had it all stripped away at the end of the third movie, where she is left literally barefoot and pregnant to wait for her man to come back.  I was--and am--livid.  I felt betrayed, both as a fan and a feminist, to see one of my favorite characters do a 180 like that.

So I have very strong feelings about these movies.  I’ve tried to get over it in the years since AWE, with limited success.  Against my better judgment I did see On Stranger Tides in the theater, and thought it was mediocre.  Since Elizabeth wasn’t involved I could just ignore its existence, for the most part.

Then the fifth movie was announced, and Will was going to be in it.  I had hoped that maybe, just maybe they could try to rectify some of the mistakes (read: character assassination) of the past.

They didn’t.  But they still came up with a pretty good movie.  Honestly, I’d even give Dead Men Tell No Tales four stars out of five.  I was riveted to the screen for most of it, and it was thrilling to hear the theme music and see the familiar faces.  It was exciting and entertaining, the special effects were impressive, and there were some good laughs.  Plus, zombie sharks!

Do I have issues with parts of it?  Yeah.  And I’m going to ramble at length.

**** MAJOR POTC: DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES SPOILERS BELOW ****

Sequel creep is definitely at work, where each installment has to be bigger and zanier than the last.  The gags are broader, the willing suspension of disbelief gets even more strained, the stakes are higher, and it becomes almost like a Saturday morning cartoon version of itself.  

Thinking back to CotBP, we had to buy into the curse turning Barbossa and his crew into undead, but other than that the world operated on fairly realistic terms.  Yes, there was movie logic involved as far as coincidences, travel times, fast wound recovery, and all that, but it still felt more or less like the real world.  Stakes got higher with each sequel, until we have whatever the hell that “bank robbery” was in DMTNT.  

Don’t get me wrong; it was an enjoyable action sequence, but it felt more like a cartoon than anything that could happen under the laws of physics as they exist in our world.  That’s not inherently a bad thing, but the tone was noticeably different compared to the earlier films.

Moving on, I was glad Captain Salazar didn’t have that slurpy, blood-drooling voice through the entire film.  When I first heard that in the early trailer I was both grossed out, and concerned that he would be hard to understand.  Instead it was just that one scene, and he spoke normally the rest of the time.  He was a great villain, from his badass and scary entrance through to his delightfully ironic death.  He was genuinely threatening, which was kind of surprising considering the cartoony feel of some of the action scenes.  Javier Bardem killed it.  Thumbs up to him!

The legend surrounding the trident, and the map to find it, seemed cool until you thought about it for more than two seconds, and then it didn’t really make any sense.  Calypso is the Sea Goddess in this universe, so where did Poseidon come in?  How can his trident override curses that she put in place?  If it could be broken by a single sword blow, how did it stay intact under the sea for (presumably) thousands of years?  I mean, sure, maaaaaagic, but...eh.

And why did Will get all barnacley anyway?  Elizabeth waited for him, so that part of the curse shouldn’t have kicked in.

And what will happen to the souls of the dead without the Dutchman to ferry them to the afterlife?  

And what happened to Bootstrap Bill?  Did Will figure out how to free him and let him move on to the afterlife?

And if breaking the trident cancelled all the curses related to the sea, how did Davy Jones appear in the after-credits scene?  (Assuming it was him.  The gait, crab claw, barnacles, tentacley silhouette and the music box theme all pointed to it being him, anyway.)  I could almost buy him coming back to life when the curse was broken, but as a normal human again, not ol’ squidface.  The mythology makes no damn sense at all!

This review is coming across pretty negative so far, but I really did enjoy the movie.  I thought it was much better than OST, and felt like a return to the original vibe of the series.  I thoroughly enjoyed watching (almost) every minute of it, and I left the theater grinning and humming the theme music.  As a summer popcorn movie, it’s pretty great.  It’s just when the adrenaline wears off and I start thinking and analyzing that I see the issues.  And, like I said, I have a long history with this franchise, so overthinking it is what I do.

There were definitely some surprises, although I saw a couple of the twists coming.  The instant I realized Carina was Hector’s daughter, I was like, “Well, he’s going to die saving her somehow.”  And I was right.  It was sad (and that damn monkey gave me more feels than any creepy little primate has a right to), but at the same time I’m delighted at how his character grew into so, so much more than he was originally planned to be.  He was supposed to be a one-shot villain in CotBP, but Geoffrey Rush is so damn awesome, and he and Johnny Depp brainstormed a history between their characters, decided his first name was Hector, and one thing led to another and here we are, genuinely mourning him in the fifth movie.  It was a worthy sendoff for a memorable character.

One of the themes that got raised over and over in the earlier movies was the idea that it’s possible to be a pirate and a good man.  Bootstrap Bill Turner was.  Jack is.  Was Hector Barbossa a good man?  I don’t know if I’d go that far, but he wasn’t 100% evil, either.  And he was a lot of fun to watch.

Henry definitely reminded me of Will.  He had the same wide-eyed earnestness about him, as well as the tendency to charge into danger because it’s the Right Thing To Do without thinking through the full plan first.  Elizabeth’s legacy is a bit harder to see, except in the first two scenes.  Keeping a secret stash of pirate memorabilia and legends?  Totally Lizzie.  Back-talking authority figures?  Yep, Lizzie’s genes are in there.  And later, in the jail, taking Jack’s ego down a peg by scoffing at his legendary reputation in comparison to the reality of a scruffy, rum-soaked pirate?  Also from the Swann side of the family.  So I think they did a pretty good job of making Henry his parents’ son. 

I just wish we had more information on how he was raised, and where.  I always imagined him scampering around Shipwreck Cove and up the rigging of Elizabeth’s ship(s), the mischievous pirate prince.  Based on the house Elizabeth is living in at the end, and the fact that he was enlisted in the royal navy, I don’t see that happening in canon now.

When Carina was introduced I had a couple thoughts:

1.  “I wonder if she’s related to any existing characters...  No, don’t be silly.  This isn’t a fanfic.  They’re trying to move the franchise forward into the next generation.”  (Or not.) 2.  I don’t want to like her because no one can ever replace Elizabeth Freaking Swann the Pirate King as the best female character in these movies.  And that’s still true, but she definitely grew on me.  She had a fairly good balance of “smart woman who can take care of herself and doesn’t need a man to complete her story” and “too perfect to be likable or believable.”  I could have done with a costume that didn’t draw quite so much attention to her heaving bosom, but I suppose there’s some vaguely historical style going on.

Honestly, there’s a reason her backstory could have been lifted from a story on Fanfiction.net circa 2004:  those kinds of long-lost relative reveals can be a hell of a lot of fun.  Especially when you have Jack there to tease “daddy” Hector mercilessly.

I’m glad they didn’t have her be Jack’s daughter, though.  That thought crossed my mind, too, and that would have been...not good.

Pity Hector never got to introduce himself to Elizabeth and Will as the father of their potential daughter-in-law.  Awwwwwkward!  Bwahahaha!

Speaking of the dreaded Willabeth...  Jack saw them smooching in his spyglass, made a face, and announced that it was a revolting sight.  Same, Jack.  Same.

Therein lies my biggest complaint about the movie, and, as I mentioned above, it’s just the latest sprout on a tree of dislike that I’ve been nursing since the ending of At World’s End was leaked.  How in the seven hells they thought it was an appropriate, satisfying, logical plot development for Elizabeth Freaking Swann the Pirate King to end up standing around passively on a beach in a frilly dress and a fucking corset, waiting for the menfolk to do the important stuff, I will never, ever understand.  It’s a slap in the face of everything her character arc was over the first three movies.

“Sure, little girls, you can have adventures and play pirate for awhile if you want to, but in the end you still have to get married, grow up, conform to society’s beauty standards, put aside those dreams, and take care of your husband and children.”  Fuck that with a rusty garden trowel.

And here, when they had the chance to redeem that travesty, when they could have showed a glimpse of her at the helm of her own flagship, or holding court with the other Pirate Lords, or just simply wearing pirate-type clothes and carrying a sword, for the love of all things holy, did they do any of those things?  Oh, no.  No, they doubled down and had her be so passive that she didn’t even get to speak.  (Doesn’t that mean they don’t have to pay Knightley as much?)  Literally all she’s there for is to be a reward for Will upon his homecoming, and then sleep with him--on land in a fancy house that could have been in Port Royal, for all we know.  Any journey her character had is moot.  She’s back to square one, and it makes me want to throw things.

Oops, I was going to keep that rant short, and failed.  Oh well, it’s a sore spot, obviously.  I have never felt so betrayed by a franchise as I did when they did that to Elizabeth in AWE, and it still stings after all these years.

My ire didn’t even stem from my shipping preferences, although that certainly was salt in the wound.  If they couldn’t give us a series of movies with Jack and Lizzie, the best pirates in the world, having amazing adventures while flirting like they did in DMC, at least they could have given us a sort of open ending, where she, Will and Jack all sail in their separate directions, knowing that their paths would cross in the future in any number of entertaining ways.  I’m never sure if I should blame the writers, the studio, or the actors, or all of the above, but I would have bought, like, ALL THE TICKETS to see those movies.

But, alas, that’s not what we got.  We got OST and DMTNT instead.  OST was quite forgettable, but DMTNT packed a pretty good punch and I wouldn’t mind seeing it again.  I won’t say it totally redeemed the franchise for me, but it’s got its head above water for the first time since DMC, so that’s progress.

Should you see it?  Yeah, I think so.  If you enjoyed the precious PotC movies, or just like pirate movies in general, it’s a fun couple hours.  Just don’t think too hard about it afterward (like I did.)

[ross-faer]

…

Why is there so much willabeth on my dash?

Ew. Make it stop.

[awryen-nyx]

Klaus Badelt did the score for the first film, then Hans Zimmer did it for the next few. Just a minor quibble there.

And I agree with everything save for the Will/Elizabeth relationship. I never got the chemistry and I wanted Disney to break the mold and have her choose Jack.

(and ignoring the last two films, i whole heartedly believe she did, even if that was will’s kid (i also think that was jack’s kid, but whatever))

i can’t talk shit about the pirates of the caribbean films as if elizabeth swann becoming pirate king didn’t hand my entire ass to me and make me the gay i am today

[hitchell-mope]

See. This is why I’m vastly more willabeth then norrabeth given that Norrington’s actor is the same from when Elizabeth’s changed from Lucinda to Kiera

[songof-thelark]

Will Turner is a handsome, intelligent, creative, honest, hardworking, brave, resourceful man. He loves Elizabeth for the strong, intelligent, and adventurous woman she is. He respects and trusts her judgement. With Will Elizabeth has the freedom and adventure she craved as well as a man she could trust to be her full partner in life, a man she could build a life with. Jack Sparrow is an intelligent man and he is handsome. But he is loyal...as long as it benefits him?He's a heavy drinker...to the point of being an alcoholic? He goes from prostitutes to other men's wives. STDs anyone? Lack of respect for women? Lack of respect for relationships? He's a treasure hunter no doubt about it but it's amazing how often his treasure is other people's belongings and money. And amazing how many people get hurt or whose property gets damaged along the way. Yes, Jack could provide the freedom and adventure Elizabeth craved, but he couldn't offer the stability, faithfulness, honesty, and family she also desired. I do like Jack. He's an interesting and amusing character, but I don't buy him as a romantic partner for anyone...let alone Elizabeth. How could he be with his excessive drinking, sleeping around, and penchant for taking what doesn't belong to him. Things I don't buy him giving up or Elizabeth ever being willing to tolerate. I just see her becoming so much less of who she is if she was with him. She'd be required to give up too much, look the other way on too many things. And while some have made the argument that she isn't herself with Will...I don't buy it. I don't believe for one minute that she spent almost 20 years sitting on that Island nor do I believe Will wanted her to. The curse was about her remaining faithful not about her staying in one spot. She's a strong, intelligent and adventurous woman. The lighthouse suggest she built a stable life for herself and her child...something that takes amazing perseverance for a single mother in that time period. And I have no doubt she did some traveling. I don't believe Elizabeth would deny her son the adventures she craved at his age. Elizabeth wanted freedom, adventure, passion, love, and family. And in the end, she got it all. She did not want to be a rum soaked, thieving pirate, who spent her entire life sailing the open sea. And as to her lack of presence in the latest movie due to Keira not being willing or able to do the movie...I like to imagine some of that research on Henry's walls was due to her. Because I don't believe she would resign herself to losing her husband. And perhaps she tried to find it and it put Henry in danger and she put her search off because her child comes first. Hopefully we get more one day and Keira will be willing to be a part of it so we can find out more about her life those nearly 20 years and her life now that she has both her husband and son.

[withswords]

i like to think about the kind of fandom discourse potc would spark if it came out today. willabeth is a toxic relationship because he’s obsessed with her and literally objectifies her as treasure. movie problematic because jack sparrow’s alcoholism is played as a joke. barbossa fans dni, he’s literally a sexpest. anti sparringtons are homophobic.

[the-girl-from-another-time]

Team Jack? You mean Team “Exciting relationship with a selfish, treacherous, independent man who offers Elizabeth complete freedom but absolutely no stability whatsoever and is 100% just lust fulfillment and mind games”?

Team Will? You mean Team “Loving relationship with a kind, loyal, noble man who offers Elizabeth both adventure and stability and is a supportive and devoted partnership that learns and grows together”?

OMG what a competition. I just can’t choose.

SCREW team Edward and team Jacob

Were you team Will or team Jack?

bonus option: team Norrington

[awryen-nyx]

OTP List

Ok. So, I did this on a reblog recently, so I thought I’d put them in a post on their own.

I ship a varied amount of stuff, some of which I KNOW confuses/unsettles people people.

OTPS

Zutara (AtlA)  (the other ships like sukka are cute but i’m not invested in)

Sesshoumaru/Kagome (Inuyasha) (borne out my dislike for inuyasha being a two timer for too damn long)

Kakashi/Sakura (Naruto)  (by shippuden he had major respect for her and we even got a tiny bit ship baited at the end. basically kakashi is who sasuke wishes he was. and i don’t care about the age gap. i ship them aged up anyway)

Jareth/Sarah (Labyrinth)  (classic hero/villain that straddles that complicated line and i love it)

Severus/Hermione (Harry Potter) (i know. major age gap, he’s not a nice person (but a good guy) etc. i like the potential for snark and the intellect)

Bucky/Happines (MCU) (i read mostly bucky/reader fic, but i want my baby to be happy dammit)

Eugene/Rapunzel (Tangled) (how can you NOT? OTP NEW DREAM)

Maul/Ahsoka (Star Wars the Clone Wars/Rebels)  (rebels started it and once again, snark and the potential for the whole uneasy allies thing and a common enemy)

Blue Moon OTPS

Sparrabeth (Pirates of the Caribbean Trilogy) (my feelings about this ship are rather similar to zutara and i found the whole team to be cowardly in not going with it)

Logan/Marie(Rogue) (X-men films - namely X1 and X2)  (all movie verse. i started shipping it before X2 came out, so when i mean years, i mean YEARS)

Tony/Pepper (MCU) (cause they are AWESOME)

Kirk/Bones (Star Trek ‘09/Kelvin Universe) (as much as i hate JJ Abrams for helping to ruin SW, i liked Star Trek '09 and i LOVED these two. love'em in TOS as well, but mostly here)

McCoy/Uhura (Star Trek '09/Kelvin Universe) (just…came outta nowhere and i enjoy it when ever i can find it)

Holmes/Watson (Sherlock Holmes films) (movie verse. i totally blame jude law and rdj for this. they are perfect!)

Next are straight up NOTPs.

Reylo

Kataang

Maiko

SasuSaku

NaruHina

Severus/Lily

James/Lily

Harry/Ginny

Ron/Hermione

Stony

Willabeth

If you ship ANY of these, I highly suggest either blocking my anti tags for it or unfollowing me because I DO occasionally go on tangents on how much I dislike/hate them.

You have been warned.

[skywaklers]

what the fuck. who is putting anti willabeth on my dash. go to hell

[him-e]

Hi, I sent the original ask about a Celibate Rey ending, I don't know what discourse came out of it, I didn't see it, but I wanted to clear the air. I didn't mean to come off dismissive of female romance/sexuality or of your ship in my ask. I understand it can be exhausting to defend your perspective over and over to people who don't want to listen, so I totally get if you thought I was baiting, though. I'm sorry for the trouble or stress this caused you.

Not asking to troll or continue the discourse, but if you don’t want to continue discussing this topic please delete this. But how can you see a valid Celibate-Rey endgame going? If IX were to end with Rey on her own and to some degree happy (Since this is Star Wars, the ending has to be at least slightly happy or hopeful) what kind of an ending would it be? If Kylo dies or survives, either/or.

Hey, no problem at all, and sorry for my snappish answer (hopefully you realized I was being part tongue-in-cheek, though). Admittedly the “better off alone/celibate” argument is something that cyclically resurfaces in other ships of mine, particularly Jaime/Brienne, which made me skittish on the whole thing, particularly when it’s tied to *female agency* buzzwords and the assumption that it’s the shippers who are arbitrarily trying to force a romance on the character, rather than it being part of the character’s canon narrative (not necessarily your case, but it’s such a popular argument against the J/B ship that I’ve developed particularly nasty anticorps for it)

So re: Celibate Jedi!Rey—

Is it a technically possible endgame for her? Totally.

Is it something I would personally be okay with and find satisfying? Well, yes, if:

a) it acknowledges and gives closure to Rey’s feelings for Ben, and viceversa. This includes admitting a degree of bittersweet in the happily ever after final picture.

Just considering the force bond alone without its romantic implications, Rey and Kylo, just the two of them, are connected on a deep intimate level. This is kind of a big deal, especially for Rey, whose familial bonds were suddenly and irrevocably severed when she was little, after which she was left completely alone with no chance to find her way back to her parents (ironically, now she has a magical tracking device in her head that allows her to communicate with another person even across galaxies. From completely alone, to never completely alone even in her own head. Big deal, indeed). 

Even if the bond is broken (because Kylo dies, or else) and no overtly romantic stuff happens between them, it will still leave a mark on Rey, an empty spot where something magical used to be that can only be partially filled with familial or “muggle” love and the purpose of a “lone” Jedi path. That she would bury Kylo (or watch him leave never to return) and immediately go to join the Resistance’s party original trilogy style as if nothing sad just happened doesn’t make a lot sense to me. In fact, it would infuriate me, as I hate when characters are written as if they had some emotion switch hidden somewhere that makes them go from sad to cheerful in the blink of an eye (and tbh TLJ, for all I liked it, already went dangerously close to that, with Rey’s jarring post-proposal cheerfulness on the Falcon during the whole Crait sequence, imo). 

So if they want to go that route, they need to be ready to tinge their happy ending with a little melancholy, otherwise I won’t find it realistic at all. This especially if Kylo dies, but also if he leaves or they are separated for whatever reason. (if Kylo lives, and redeems himself, and stays, I don’t see any reason why he and Rey should not be together, tbh. I mean it’s not like there’s still a Jedi order around dictating what Rey is or isn’t allowed to do. Like Palpatine was the Senate, she is the Jedi Order now, she can make new rules, lmao)

b) it avoids attaching moralistic implications to this choice (?) of celibacy (”that’s what I’m really meant for”, or “that’s how I’ll live my life to the fullest and be truly happy”, etc).

The figure of the Jedi in SW is, at the end of the day, a caregiver. A magical warrior/monk who essentially devotes their life to other people, denying any sort of personal ambition of satisfaction for himself (self-drive is closer to the Sith way). While the extent of this self-abnegation can be reframed and repackaged in a more “progressive” light (say Rey rebuilds a Jedi order with different rules, or just chooses a different way to be a Jedi, see above), the essence of caregiving and selflessness will probably remain untouched. It’s really funny to me that the people who want this endgame for Rey are the same one who get their panties in a twist at the thought of Rey being “reduced to an emotional caregiver” for Ben (paraphrasing some anti post I’ve read recently). The point is, Celibate!Jedi Rey wouldn’t be simply choosing friendship/family/a career over romance, she’d actually sacrifice her individual (in this case, romantic/sexual) desires in order to become a caregiver for an entire community. And this isn’t something I’d consider an especially subversive or /empowering/ endgame for a female character, quite the opposite, actually. The subtext here needs to be handed carefully, particularly if her endgame involves rebuilding some sort of Jedi school for gifted children: the risk of elevating her to a self-sacrificial virgin mother archetype would be pretty high. It can be done, and it can imply Rey will find happiness in this life, but without any sort of hamfisted *inspirational moral message for little girls*, if you know what I mean.

c) it doesn’t frame Rey’s choice not to be with Kylo specifically (if it is indeed a choice on her part and not something dictated by external forces, aka Kylo’s death or the Willabeth endgame, more on that later) in a moral(istic) perspective.

no “I can’t be with you because you have been mean to people, ewww” bullshit, thank you very much. This sounds like the ultimate anti wet dream, Rey rejecting Kylo because he’s awful, and I think we’re WAAAYYYY past it with all that happened in TLJ.

I hope this clarifies things a bit!

Another anon asked me to explain what I meant with the Willabeth endgame, and:

in POTC III Will Turner kills Davy Jones, so he has to take his place as the captain of the Flying Dutchman, which is a curse for life. He and Elizabeth (who are now married) spend a last day together on an island (during which it’s implied they fuck like rabbits and conceive a child, lmao), and then, at sunset, Will says goodbye, leaving the box containing his heart to Elizabeth, to whom he says, “will you keep it safe for me?”. It’s heartbreaking and a bit sadistic tbh but also incredibly romantic.

How does this apply to Reylo?

Well, Kylo could be 

sentenced to lifelong exile on a remote planet, or 

imprisoned for life, or 

going on exile on his own will, or 

leaving to form a new order of darksiders (or something) as he feels he has no place among the Good Guys and has Redeemed Himself But Not Really, or 

sentenced to death and then promptly freed by Rey, who urges him to leave never to return, for his own safety, or

in general, literally or metaphorically cursed to live an existence separated from Rey as a form of atonement alternative to death;

and Rey obviously can’t follow him, because she can’t and won’t abandon her place among the Resistance, and they both know this, but it doesn’t stop them for wanting each other and swearing they will wait for each other forever, cue pants-dropping emotional final goodbye scene which, while offering complete closure, leaves the possibility of a future reunion entirely possible.

Why do I think it’s a valid scenario?

it’s a good compromise between endgame Reylo and Celibate!Jedi Rey;

Kylo gets to Suffer ™, as y’all hope for;

an unwritten but very common and wise rule of storytelling (whether or not you agree with it) is that a couple who can’t be together NOW is more interesting than a couple who is Just Together and chillin’ on the sofa or something, so this endgame leaves things open enough to be further explored in hypothetical tie-in canon material (comics, novels, tv adaptations, maybe even a standalone Episode IX-bis in five or six years from now, WHO THE HELL KNOWS?);

the fanfictions would SKYROCKET; 

the force bond, if it still exists at that point, would be an INCREDIBLY convenient plot device;

Reylo Sex Island

end

[resteasybellamy]

This & Clarke around Blecho has the same energy.

[skarletterambles]

Reopening old fandom wounds

How can I still have such strong emotions about ten year-old ship war?  How can I still feel the visceral, gut-wrenching disappointment of it not becoming canon?  How can I still want to take people who bash the ship and (metaphorically) shake them while screaming “Don’t you get it?  Don’t you see how INCREDIBLE this pairing is?”  How can I still feel this bitter over the fact that two fictional characters didn’t hook up?  

To myself I say, “Get over it!  Yeesh!”

As I dabble in fandoms nowadays, I scoff at people who get too worked up about shipping.  But in the back of my head there’s always a little voice whispering, “Yes, but remember how you felt about them...”

And I remember.  Oh yes, I remember, and having been burned that badly before, I’m hesitant to invest too much emotion in whether a ship will become canon or not.

Shipping for fun without expecting it to become canon is a different beast altogether.  There’s no pressure; you can just sit back and have fun, and if somebody else doesn’t ship it, well, whatever.  Live and let live.

But I don’t think I will ever again set myself up for such crushing disappointment by pinning my hopes and dreams on a pairing becoming canon.  Even as hard as I ship Jaime/Brienne from GoT/ASoIaF--and they’re definitely an OTP of mine--I’ve steeled my heart against the very real possibility that they won’t get together in canon.  It’s like that adage about how pessimists are never disappointed.

It’s silly, but in a way I actually mourned when At World’s End came out.  It was a double whammy, with my OTP not getting together while one of them had three movies’ worth of character development yanked away so fast I got whiplash.  I was in college at the time and felt like I should be too old to be that affected by something as petty as a ship war, but I couldn’t help it.  It really bothered me, and shook my confidence in my own ability to analyze fiction--not such a great feeling when you’re working toward a B.A. in literature!

It was a hard-learned lesson about how much to let shipping (and fandom wars in general) effect me.  I like to think I have a healthier attitude about it all nowadays, and honestly, in the long term, the butchering of Elizabeth’s character journey has stuck in my craw far worse than whom she ended up linked to romantically.  I’ve reached the “acceptance” stage on Sparrabeth not being canon, but I’m stuck on “anger” about her going back to passivity and corsets--and the new movie only rubbed salt in that wound.

Anyway, I thought I was over this, but then the fifth Pirates movie came along and ripped off ten-year-old scabs, and all those feelings just come bleeding forth all over again.  And here I am ranting.  Again.

On one hand it’s comforting to see other shippers in the same boat (no pun intended), but it’s also beyond frustrating to see the proponents of the opposing (and yes, canon--keep rubbing it in) ship bashing my OTP and misconstruing its appeal.  Like, I had these same arguments TEN FUCKING YEARS AGO.  The Will/Liz shippers didn’t get it then, and they don’t get it now.  I’m not going to jump back into the cesspool to try to convince another generation of fans about the characterization, the symbolism, the parallels, the music clues, the looks, the chemistry, the framing of certain scenes, the subtle nuances, the blatant UST that oozes from the screen, the deleted scenes, that damn compass, the way they understand each other’s true hearts as nobody else ever could, the way he allows her to be the pirate she’s always yearned to be while she allows him to be the good man he really is, meeting in the middle in a perfect balance of partnership and freedom and and and DAMN IT! WHY AM I DOING THIS TO MYSELF?!

If you’ve been on board the good ship Sparrabeth long enough to remember the Very Interesting Waffle meme, you know what I’m talking about.

Anyway, I had to vent.  And now I have.  Carry on.

[dcbicki]

I will never understand people who claim to like Elizabeth Swan, and then, the moment she puts on a pretty dress, they declare her character ruined. Is her value based on her clothes? My personal favourite is Will, and especially CotFD!Will. But still, if the curse was broken and he spent the rest of his days playing with his grandchildren, I would not declare his character Ruined Forever. Elizabeth has earned her pretty dresses.Will has earned a peaceful life with his family. (1/2)

(2/2) Elizabeth’s kickassery is part of her character, not something that she loses or gains based on whether she wears pirate garb or not. I guess that’s one of the reasons I like Willabeth. Will knew she could kick ass with the best of them when she was still “Miss Swan” to him. He didn’t started treating her as an equal only after she ditched the dresses, because he loves her for who she is, not for her clothes. (Btw your gifedits are gorgeous, 10/10, could stare at them all day)

This is gonna be an essay.

I entirely agree with your thinking.

Will has been and will always be my favourite, but Elizabeth is a close fucking second. And, yes, I’d be just as glad to watch them have another last-minute child, or play with potential grandchildren via Henry, because you know what? They deserve to actually live comfortably and happily. They deserve nice things, and they’ve more than paid the price for such luxuries. Elizabeth lost her father, lost her standing as the Governor’s daughter (whether she wanted it or not). Will literally died, and since getting married, they’ve spent a grand total of approximately 50 hours together (2 x 48hrs + whatever time it took to find the fucking island they banged on in the first place and settle all accounts).

They both went through hell and back, and I’ve personally never believed their goal, their personal endgame was to become pirates. That’s just what happened, via circumstance and, well, destiny.) I mean, Will was pretty resolute on the whole “I practice three hours a day so when I meet a pirate I can kill it!” thing. And young Elizabeth’s “I think it’d be rather exciting to meet a pirate.” dream never screamed “She wants to ditch the skirts and go pirating!” to me. It just didn’t.

She wanted adventure, she wanted romance, she wanted to meet exciting people. She got all of this, and even more than she bargained for. You’ll go on crusades and dip your toe in the seas of piracy, but your father will pay the price. You’ll get your love, but he’s gonna die and basically be kept from you for all of eternity. You’ll meet those pirates you dreamed of so often and you’ll even become their King, but there is a cost.

None of this seems to have anything to do with the whole “Why is she wearing a corseted dress? Bullshit!” discourse this site’s been babbling on about for some days now. But it’s relevant anyway because, hey, Elizabeth’s value as a character does not depend on whether she dresses more feminine or masculine. It’s a part of her arc, yes (there’s no denying that). But you know what (or rather who) else is a key factor in her endgame? William.

One minute into Curse of the Black Pearl, and a young Lizzie is caught singing a pirate song she shouldn’t even know the words to. Three minutes into Curse of the Black Pearl, and a young Lizzie is staring down at a young Will Turner, and we know where this is going, we know where this is going to end up. She eyes his medallion in curiosity, and then she steals it to protect him, to save him.

Elizabeth’s arc was about Will, and about them as a pair. And I’m not being being anti-feminist when I say this, far from it. On a first watch, you’re assuming she’s some kind of damsel in semi-distress and he’s the handsome makeshift knight who’s gonna go through hell and back to save her. Nope. Think again. Dead Man’s Chest? Oh, they’re arrested and she’s held prisoner and Will is gonna find the compass that frees her so they can live happily ever after. Nope. Think again. Elizabeth is gonna stow her savvy ass away on a merchant’s ship, disguise herself and go after him and the compass herself.

I think a good portion of those unhappy with her look in that one second, blink-and-you-miss-it clip from the trailer have this cemented in their brains.

I understand why. That dress looked painful af, and it damn near killed her. But that doesn’t mean she’s sworn off wearing dresses. She was brought up wearing gowns and jewellery, given nice things all her life. She gets taken as a hostage, swaps out one puffy dress for a pair of trousers and a jacket (above). But upon returning to Port Royal, she’s back in a dress; only it’s a little less constricting.

You know why? Yes, she’s still the Governor’s daughter and still has to present herself a certain way. But, she’s also a woman who likes pretty things, and pretty dresses.

Granted, that particular dress got soaked and ripped and left to rot at the bottom of the sea because it was suffocating her. But it’s still fancy, and elegant, and she’s a big fucking fan of its look.

So, upon returning from her early introduction to piracy, she’s back in dresses. (Note this one that looks eerily similar to the one spotted in the latest DMTNT trailer. More on that later…).

Ah, the wedding. Corset-hating Elizabeth is back in a gloriously feminine dress. She looks beautiful. She’d be fucking radiant if they hadn’t arrested her groom. Oh, and then they arrest her too and throw her in a cell while he’s sent off on some kind of rescue mission. Does she stay there though? No. She holds his douche at gunpoint and puts her own save-Will plan into action.

You know what’s not a problem here? The dress. She’s angry heroine in a big wedding dress, and it’s amazing. And it only becomes an obstacle when her one way off the island is through an exclusively male merchant’s ship, and bartering her way onto the ship in such a dress would never work. She needs masculine clothing to hide her femininity, to fit in, to move with ease aboard a busy ship and among its sailors. I somehow don’t think balling up to Tortuga like this in her wedding gown would have quite worked out?

Why is she there? It’s not because her desire to engage in piracy is so strong that she just couldn’t help herself. It’s not because she wants the pirates’ life, good and true. She wants Will. She’s adapting to fit the environment, but her goal is still the same. Her feelings in DMC become a little uncertain at a point or two, but her biggest priority has always been to find Will and grant them both freedom.

I don’t believe it’s for nothing that the shot of her wedding gown lost at sea transitioned into her looking all gloomy aboard the Pearl. It’s not a “See? Her dress was just holding her back from what she really wanted! Piracy!” sort of shot, imo. It’s a “The lengths she is going to are fucking strenuous.” to me, because oh, guess what they follow it up with?

Lizzie wants to be wedded and bedded, living her life somewhere safe from the East India. Lizzie wants to have been wedded in her wedding dress, and bedded by her damsel of a groom. Lizzie is engaging in piracy for the short term, because it’s the only option left for her, for them. Will is the one who needs saving, to her. If her sacrificing Jack to save them both didn’t spell that out for you, then I’m not sure what will. If her guilt at sacrificing Jack to save them both didn’t spell out that she is only human to you, then I don’t know what will. Yes, she’s a pirate. She’s ruthless. But her intent at the start was never to become a full-fledged pirate.

First she holds a man at gun point, and then she holds a different man at knife point. Elizabeth is ruthless, determined. But the way I see it is this: more people would view this scene as her being a badass pirate rather than the one above (gun). Why? The scowl is the same. It’s only the outfit and weapon that are different. And there is nothing entirely feminine about a pistol, so the choice of weapon isn’t what bridges the divide. It’s the outfit. Because this is dark and genderless, more masculine than it is feminine, and less sexualized. (She suffers tremendous amounts of female sexualization throughout the movies but that’s a whole other post). And she’s hiding half a dozen weapons beneath her clothes, so this obviously means the dress-loving Lizzie of past movies is well and truly gone. Nope.

I keep seeing posts like “She’s the Pirate King! Why isn’t she wearing some kickass pirate gear and wielding swords?” Interesting. You do realise this was battle-wear, don’t you? She kicked off a war and fought her way through it wearing this ensemble. Note: that belt always seemed much too tight and constricting to me, almost like a corset but *cough* moving along…

What lies underneath is a whole other story, though.

The rest of her armor is nowhere in sight and I’m willing to bet this wasn’t without its intentions. Now a wife, Elizabeth is only seen in the dress that hung beneath her Pirate King! battle clothing. She’s sexualized (again, because this is basically her underclothes), but she’s meant to have just been having sex and deep levels of intimacy for hours so it’s understandable. She’s no longer waging a war, she’s no longer in need of protection in form of clothing because she’s vulnerable.

That which she fought so long and so hard for has just been afforded to her, in a cruel way. She has Will, and she doesn’t exactly get the happy ending she longed for. And I personally don’t believe that because the last shot of her in the film is stood alone on a beach with a rowboat and a chest means she was left there for ten years. Woman is hardcore, and when she wants something, she works for it. (Case in point, this entire post).

The next time we see her, she’s wearing something less combatant and a little more feminine. Understandable given she has a nine year old son and responsibilities, and from what we now know he’s been brought up so fucking well.

Perhaps she engaged in a few more small wars. Perhaps she sent many a dead pirate down to her husband’s awaiting ferrying hands. Perhaps she didn’t do any of this because it may never have been her desire in the first place. But her son is well-educated and well-read, and living with the idea that her character has been thrown to the wolves because she maybe chose to be a stable mother rather than a pirate in danger of extinction is ludicrous.

I think many of you are forgetting she’s around the age of 40-42 by now, and she’s probably nicely settled into society. We don’t know much about what she’s been up to, or what she’s been doing. And we aren’t going to. This is most, likely, it for her.

And complaining because she’s wearing a dress that looks moderately corseted and heavily similar to that which she wore back in Curse of the Black Pearl is just mindless. Doesn’t she deserve nice things? Doesn’t she deserve to finally be happy and comfortable, and live freely but elegantly.

Note: Her role now is essentially to reunite with Will for once and for all (depending on the franchise’s future), and to tie in the loose ends of their storyline. This new scene is going to rewrite over anything the previous writers’ sold the fandom (that after ten years, he’s free.). But I for one am here for it, because as much as I loved the parts of her storyline that involved her slashing people with a sword that looked much too heavy for her to handle or putting assholes back into place, I equally loved the parts that revolved around her love story, that revolved around hers and Will’s fate.

Besides, if you hadn’t seen the love of your life in ten years, wouldn’t you want to look glorious af for the occasion?

All this to say, the dress is gonna make the scene far more beautiful and reminiscent of the first movies… so shut the fuck up.