#sw wank

[chocmarss]

Tales of the Empire has little effect on me, considering the bad way they treated Barriss. And I think we have enough storylines about the Empire, WHERE is my promised tales of the Jedi where I can watch padawan shenanigans and the deep dive into Jedi teachings. Filoni’s view of them is so skewed, he needs to amend this by actually learning about the Jedi and how they work lmao

[jockbots]

THEY WERE.FUCKING STAND MIXERS UR RIGHT AND U SHOULD SAY IT

AND boba and fenic rocking up to jabbas and making themselves at home was so iconic i was so ready for all of that!!!

what pisses me off abt the book of boba fett (besides how dirty they did temura morrison as a result) is the musical arrangement

like ludwig whatshis face did such an iconic and wonderful score for the mando and there r elements of a theme for boba throughout and the book of boba fett theme is alright but like i lv the chanting at the start and then it goes like humming? and it feels half baked? like vode an is riggt there, mando'a is right there, moari music is right there u had so many ways you could have taken it and instead i spend the creadits for tbobf cackling bc a bunch of grown men were going bobabobaboba FETT

[bosooka]

i've become immune to the SW fandom's pathological tendency to mischaracterize the kryze sisters based on their personal agenda through the simple process of closing tumblr and rewatching star wars

[antianakin]

Am I the only one who just lost any and all love for newer Star Wars material due to Jedi hate ? Like- the only merch or show or even FANDOM topic I get involved in is clone wars stuff and MAYBE TBB. Like- why would I want the watch shows who attempt to rewritte canon and portray the very heroes of Star Wars as the bad guys ?

Why would I want to watch shows that assassinate characters left and right (looking at you, Ahsoka and Sabine) ? Why would I want to buy merch of characters who I not only NOT care about, but who also are used as meta mouthpieces for stupid Jedi hate ?

I think there's TONS of good newer Star Wars material, to be honest.

I loved the Kenobi show and it is arguably one of the most pro Jedi pieces of media to have existed since the Prequels films. Aside from one itty bitty somewhat awkward word choice in one line of one episode, there is absolutely NOTHING in that show that can be used to indict the Jedi or blame them for anything and it is arguably one of the only shows to really spend time MOURNING the Jedi and recognizing the horror of what was done to them. Rebels comes closest after this, but its structure makes it a little less visceral than the Kenobi show was to me.

I really adore Visions and I recognize that this is sort-of Star Wars adjacent more than anything else, but SO LITTLE truly understands what makes Star Wars compelling as a story and really hits on those primary themes the way that Visions does. There's SO MUCH Jedi content in Visions and I remember people complaining about how much Jedi content was in Visions and other people responding that if you were given free reign to just play in the Star Wars sandbox with near zero restrictions on what you could make with it, you would probably ALSO immediately go for the psychic space wizards with laser swords. Who WOULDN'T? Visions also just genuinely has some of the most engaging and heart-wrenching stories to come out of Star Wars in a LONG while and it does it in these beautifully animated 15 minute packages. It's such a gem and I am so glad to be alive at the same time as Visions.

Rogue One is older now, but both Rogue One and Andor, despite having zero actual Jedi in them, really hinge on the themes from the Prequel trilogy about the tragedy in the Star Wars universe, stepping up when no one else will, choosing to be selfless and compassionate for the greater good, etc. Faith and hope are MASSIVE themes within these two works and even though there aren't any space wizards, good or evil, in either story, they feel like some of the most pro Jedi things Star Wars has come out with in a while based on thematic messages ALONE.

The Mandalorian's first two seasons actually have this absolutely BEAUTIFUL story about the selfless sacrifice of one man as he gives up everything in order to help this child find his way back to the culture he'd been ripped from. Everything AFTER that regarding Grogu and Din's storyline is a piece of shit (it's not explicitly anti-Jedi or anything, but it undoes a lot of the things that made their story so compelling and beautiful), but the first two seasons are genuinely GOOD and very pro Jedi in a lot of ways despite the lack of many actual Jedi characters.

The Book of Boba Fett is a terrible show for a LOT of reasons, but shockingly none of them have anything to do with its treatment of the Jedi. If it ever ends up with a season two, I desperately hope they leave Mace Windu's name the fuck out of it, but at this point it is a pretty Jedi neutral show if you're willing to deal with the rest of its bullshit.

Rebels is also somewhat older now, and it has a few lines here and there that are a tad more Jedi critical, but it is by and large VERY Jedi positive and does also follow a lot of the themes of selflessness and sacrifice that go along with being a Jedi. It also has themes of mercy and patience and facing your fears in Sabine's storyline that got entirely thrown away in her later storyline. Just thought that was worth pointing out. For reasons.

TBB is also fairly Jedi neutral, but its treatment of the clones is basically the clone version of being anti Jedi, so I'm not sure it's actually any better. It just traded hating on the Jedi to hating on the clones, and I find that just as distasteful.

I can't really speak to things like comics and novels much since I don't tend to consume them really. I've read a few of the adult novels in the High Republic Phase I and the first one was genuinely very good, but there were some relatively heavy-handed Jedi critical themes within the third book of Phase I (The Fallen Star) that put me off of it a little. I haven't continued into Phase II or III at all, so I have no idea if those themes got continued in later books. I've heard generally good things about the Padawan book, I think.

The Cal Kestis video games, Fallen Order and Survivor, also have their small Jedi critical moments, but much like Rebels, it has these massive overarching themes and messages about compassion and selflessness and sacrifice and facing your fears and mercy. They are immensely Jedi positive in a lot of ways and I really enjoyed both of them.

So out of everything I have seen (and know about) the only stuff that's truly heinously and insultingly anti-Jedi is the Ahsoka show, the Acolyte, and Tales of the Jedi. Three shows and like 30% of one book. Out of a list of like ten different shows and one film and some books and video games. It's not even really HALF of the content we've been getting recently.

A lot of people talk about the Disney era like it's ruined Star Wars, or like nothing it releases has ever been good. But it just straight up isn't true. It's a little insulting to all of the genuinely wonderful work that is being done by all of these other creators to just brush aside everything that's been coming out recently as awful and bad because some of the MOST recent things have been pretty explicitly hateful towards the Jedi. It's not fun that we had the Ahsoka show immediately followed by the Bad Batch followed by the Acolyte. I hate that, too, it feels like we're on this neverending shitshow of stories explicitly aimed at hating a group of characters for no obvious good reason. But I don't think that the last 6 months or so of bullshit should overshadow some of the really beautiful stories we HAVE gotten within the last several years.

If you feel like things are getting difficult, maybe do a "good Star Wars" marathon of sorts. Watch the Prequels, followed by the Kenobi show, then Andor, then Rebels, then Rogue One, then the Original trilogy. This one long beautiful story of people stepping up to fight against selfishness and greed and darkness no matter what.

Or go rewatch Visions or read some of your favorite fanfics and remember all the things about Star Wars that are just universally cool and compelling across the world. Hell, you can try writing something of your own! Anything! A lot of my AU concepts stemmed from spite and really helped me feel a little bit better about Star Wars when it sometimes felt like I was just surrounded by the parts of it I liked the least. Go buy yourself a cool t-shirt or some fun jewelry. Find some pretty stickers and put it on a water bottle or an enamel pin to put on a canvas tote bag or a corkboard.

Curating your fandom experience goes beyond just the internet. There's a reason I am boycotting the Acolyte and it isn't because I think Disney or its creators are going to care at all. I'm doing it for ME, because I had such a shitty time watching the Ahsoka show and it made me so miserable each week that I seriously think I will be better off just leaving it the hell alone and just absorbing whatever ends up crossing my dash from a distance. I only participate in Star Wars fandom servers that I feel safe in and only really get into discussions with personal friends who I know well. If participating in Star Wars fandom is making you sad, maybe take a step back or find a way to create your own corner of fandom that feels better. Ignore the damn Ahsoka show, pretend it never existed. Ignore the Acolyte. Ignore Tales of the Jedi. Ignore Filoni-related bullshit. Focus on the parts you DO like, or give yourself the space to remember why you liked it in the first place.

[padawanlost]

I've noticed it seems to be getting fashionable to call Anakin a "narcissist" and a "pyschopath" again.

Just when you think you're making progress in promoting understanding of mental health- you realize these people have learned nothing.

You know, i’ve been back to tumblr for like 3 months and it’s amazing how little it has changed. After over 20 years of fandom, time has taught me the discourse rarely is about an honest, open minded, adult discussion of the source material. It’s more about people trying to validate their own feelings about it. So, it’s not really about Anakin. It’s about people who don’t have a strong emotional connection with him, or who does not empathize with his character arc, trying to rationalize it. Or, at worst, it’s about being mad that other people like/enjoy something do not.

The Jedi discourse is a prime example of this. If say you anything remotely negative about them, like “they made a few mistakes”…suddenly your argument is automatically invalid and, on top of that, you’re a bad person who “doesn’t get it”.

So, in my old age, where I used to see an attack on my favorite character (or even myself), I see someone trying to justify or validate their own opinion with the tools they have. We have to remember not everyone knows enough about psychology to understand why Anakin is not psychopath or why it can be harmful to use real identity disorders mock fictional villains.

My advice is for you to ignore it. Trust me, fandom discourse is a bottomless pit. That’s why I prefer to spend my time discussing star wars with people who actually want to have a productive conversation about the material.

[jedi-enthusiast]

@confusledqueer apologizes for not responding sooner, it’s been a busy couple days and—honestly—I forgot for a bit.

Moving on-

—————

Me equating some of the things that anti-Jedi people say to antisemitism and, sometimes, outright Nazi-esque rhetoric is not “wild” or “a stretch,” as you’re implying.

Justification of their genocide, denial that it actually was a genocide, a belief that the genocided party “caused” their own genocide, and a belief that they genocided party were wrong or “led astray” while one person was sent to make things right- (via either making them change their ways or outright destroying them/their culture) -are all things I’ve seen people say about the Jedi…

…but they’re also things that people have actually said about Jews.

Take the example I put in the post of someone denying that the Jedi Purge was actually a genocide, and how—by changing “Jedi” to “Judaism” and “Force-religions” to “Abrahamic Faiths”—it sounds verbatim to Holocaust denial.

Or, as another example, people claiming that the Jedi “kidnapped kids to brainwash them”…don’t you see how that sounds like Blood Libel?

So me pointing out that a lot of stuff anti-Jedi people say sounds like antisemitic rhetoric isn’t a stretch, not when a lot of it sounds verbatim to what people are saying with the rise of antisemitism and stuff they have said in the past.

—————

Now, I’m not Jewish, but it’s not just me, your neighborhood White Girl™️, who’s pointing this stuff out.

Actual Jewish people have pointed out the alarming similarities between anti-Jedi rhetoric and straight up antisemitism. So, if you wanna argue about- “you shouldn’t compare real world discrimination to fictional stuff” -then you should probably take that into account.

Go ahead and try telling Jewish Star Wars fans to stop calling out antisemitic rhetoric in the fandom, I’m sure that’ll go down real well.

I also find it hilarious that you’re telling me to be careful about the rhetoric I use in a thread about how I shouldn’t point out that some of the rhetoric other people spout is basically antisemitism rebranded.

And my point in that post wasn’t- “since this is based off of a real world culture/religion, you can’t criticize it.”

My point was- “since this is based off of a real world culture/religion then you need to be careful about how you criticize it, otherwise you might unconsciously be spouting bigoted beliefs and antisemitic rhetoric because you don’t recognize that that’s what it is because you’re saying it about a fictional culture.”

By all means, I get that some people just don’t like the Jedi, that’s their prerogative and we all have our own tastes.

Criticize them, if you feel like it, but don’t go around spouting rebranded antisemitism to do it. I’m sure you can come up with plenty of things to complain about them for without doing so.

—————

Now, I can understand why you might be worried about the slippery slope from this to shit like actual censorship—which, I think we can all agree, is a bad thing. Or how you might think criticizing this could lead to the whole “fandom purity” debate.

My thing is, it all comes down to does it actually harm people?

Perpetuating harmful stereotypes via saying stuff like the Jewish based characters “steal children,” or “lost their way,” or “they caused/deserved their genocide”—that does cause actual harm.

Think about why the “angry black man” stereotype or the “cheating bisexual” stereotype are bad and people- (rightly) -push back against them. It’s the same thing here.

Shipping a problematic ship, calling a fictional serial killer “babygirl,” writing about dark topics*, headcanoning characters as gay or trans…none of that is actively harming people.

(*obviously when writing about dark topics you should tag appropriately so people can avoid triggers, but that’s another topic for another day)

That’s the difference.

And, for the record, I think letting people spout bigotry just because they’re saying it about something fictional is the more dangerous mindset than calling it out.

[jebiknights]

LRB has me thinking again about how frustrating it is the way people talk about aotc Anakin, specifically about his politics. Because people ignore how much of Palpatines grooming is already taking hold, even aside from the Tusken Massacre (which is a different narrative pit). The amount of memes about him being the conservative boyfriend and shit like wowjdkd no this is a kid who has been groomed and radicalized out of his own beliefs. Palpatine uses the Senate's known corruption and Anakin's past as a slave against him to convince him that the only way to fix the problems that Anakin sees and experienced is through Palpatine being in charge. This isn't just an oh Anakin is a weirdo with bad beliefs, he's been actively groomed to think this way in preparation for Palpatine becoming emperor. Anakin is a former slave, he is very unlikely to come to the conclusion that having a despot is the way to go on his own, someone had to guide him there. I'm not going to act like he doesn't have those beliefs, but there is a reason he does.

[kanansdume]

Filoni: You shouldn't NEED to watch any of Rebels to understand Ahsoka, it should be accessible for all Star Wars fans.

Me: This information doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Fans: Well this is obviously because you just haven't seen Rebels, because if you HAD, then you'd UNDERSTAND why the character acts the way they do!

Me: Filoni literally said we didn't need to. If the showrunner says you don't need to and the only way fans can defend the writing is to say it's explained in a different show, then somewhere along the way, the writing must have failed.

Fans: Fuck you, then, just don't watch it!

[qprstobin]

Honestly I think I could handle how much I dislike the way some of biggest ships in the fandom were handled if this fandom still actually produced gen fics. Almost every single fic out there right now is only there to push people towards a ship in the end. Even the fics where it's TECHNICALLY gen always feels the need to sprinkle in a mention of a ship or crush. Like this show has always been about the friendships? The found family? How horrific things can bond you together? And with one season and within a year it feels like it's been completely wiped out from this fandom. it's honestly depressing at this point

[bosooka]

ugh satine and the new mandalorians were so boring with their technological innovation, beautiful architecture, flourishing society, and principled refusal to participate in a conflict entirely invented by a literal sith lord. mandalorians are so much better now that their planet is nearly uninhabitable, 98% of them are dead and the survivors are either 1) cultists who live in jurassic park, 2) literal mercenaries, or 3) literally just bo-katan kryze. because pew pew pew lasers beskar Warrior Culture(TM)!!!

[antianakin]

I genuinely felt like TBB and TBOBF were the worst of the recent Star Wars shows we've gotten, but I was wrong.

TBB and TBOBF have many of the same issues as the Ahsoka show in terms of things like structure and pacing and character development, but neither of them have taken several of the massive worldbuilding blocks that built this entire franchise and chosen to shatter them into dust. Neither of them has so far looked at the themes and messages that Lucas put into the Skywalker Saga and decided to directly contradict all of them. Neither of them took three of the BEST female characters in the franchise and completely and utterly butchered them into emotionless monstrosities who only exist to be anti-Jedi mouthpieces.

Never thought that the Ahsoka show would make me almost GRATEFUL for what we were given in TBB and TBOBF.

[queermania]

Same anon, I also wanted to add that bodily autonomy IS inherently a Sam issue because there are so many instances in the text that has to do with something out of Sam's control. Being Lucifer's true vessel (which yes, Dean was Michael's and he didn't have control over that either, but that's not portrayed as much in the text because they WANTED the viewers to see Sam's struggle with his "destiny" because Lucifer is Lucifer, but it would have been nice to see Dean being Michael's vessel affect him more.) The demon blood was a violation, obviously. John violated both of his children's autonomy by trying to turn them into mindless soldiers. That's why it showed Sam get away, because it was showing a small portion of his life when he gained that autonomy back, only for Azazel and Lucifer to control his life again by killing Jess so that they could manipulate him into leaving the life he made for himself free of control. (Not to mention they controlled more than just Jessica's death. His best friend was a demon, his prom date was a demon, his teacher was a demon, etc etc. His whole life was meticulously planned out in a way that Dean's wasn't.) Then the Special Children stuff, then Ruby comes along, and as I explained before, violates his autonomy. That's why FINALLY in the season 5 finale, which as a reminder was supposed to be the end of the show, it portrayed him getting his autonomy back by taking control of his body!! It doesn't get any clearer than that!! His first words of the series are "Do I have to?" and his last are "You're going to have to make me!" This is his whole story arc of the first 5 seasons, regaining his autonomy and it was done so well. But then the next seasons go back to violating them again when he comes back soulless and his soulless self does a bunch of things to violate it, like sleeping with people and doing certain things Sam would never do. Then the whole Gadreel thing. (Which I wasn't as mad that Dean tricked Sam into bringing him back to life, but moreso that he manipulated him for months and Sam had a whole ANGEL living inside of him and Sam was losing time. THAT is violating his bodily autonomy on multiple levels.) Sure there are instances where other characters get their autonomy violated but none more than Sam's whose entire arc of the first 5 seasons involved it.

first of all, the show didn't only last for five seasons. it lasted for fifteen and everything that happened after season five is still canon. and my entire point was that just because the show sometimes frames it like sam has his autonomy violated more often, doesn't mean it actually happens that way.

being lucifer's true vessel is not a violation of sam's autonomy anymore than any other person being a potential vessel for an angel is. but even if you take that stance, you've already highlighted exactly why that's not specific to sam anyway. dean is also a true vessel, ergo...

i've already agreed the demon blood when he was a baby was a violation of his autonomy.

but again with john.. you've explicitly brought up an example of something that applies to both sam and dean. so once again, not specific to sam.

and if getting away was a restoration of his autonomy and dean didn't get away then i guess we can assume dean was having his autonomy violated while sam wasn't. soooooo... now it's specific to dean and not sam.

demons possessing other people is not a violation of sam's autonomy wtf. it's a violation of those people's autonomy. it's a fucked up thing that happened to sam, yeah, but it has nothing to do with his autonomy.

sam's last line of the series was "dean" because, again, the show went beyond the first five seasons and when i'm talking about the show, i'm talking about the entire thing.

sam's actions when he was soulless are not him violating his own autonomy??? literally WHAT?? but even if you want to use that completely unhinged logic, then that means at the very least that jack's actions when he was soulless were a violation of his autonomy, which again means it's not specific to sam.

i'm not arguing that gadreel possessing sam was a violation of his autonomy.

but again... just because the show made it a recurring theme doesn't mean it actually happened to sam with any more frequency than it did to dean (or cas).

[dameronnss]

Some thoughts

When a person leaves fandom out of harassment, no one is responsible unless they were a harasser themselves.

I agree that immediately running to tumblr and posting about lost fics is a bit tasteless. But the posts directed towards people expressing sadness or anger - how do you know that all of these people never reblogged or commented or anything? Do you somehow have knowledge of every single person’s ao3 (which is oftentimes not the same as tumblr url) and have you sifted through thousands of comments to confirm they never said a word? What if they commented on anon? It’s disingenuous to say that all of these people did nothing while Glimmer was still around.

I find it a bit galling to blame random codywan readers for not standing up against harassment to writers. Whenever I see a hateful anon or comment directed at a codywan creator, there is always at least one positive person providing support. How can we defend against harassment when we don’t even know it’s happening? Most of us did not know Glimmer personally, we saw that they were inactive for several months and were worried. We had no idea they were being harassed until they posted about it on the 4th (I don’t know if the hateful comments were on AO3, I personally do not go through the tons of comments that they get). Look at the outpouring of love on their post - if they had spoken up about it, I’m sure people would’ve come to their defense (this is NOT an indictment against them for not speaking up). With EMIMH12 as well - first of all, her doxxing was not public knowledge, so good job revealing that. I shared a server with her, she mentioned some problems but was relatively private about it. When she announced her leaving and said what had happened, the damage was already done. She also asked for privacy - she specifically did NOT want public callouts because she was worried it would make things worse.

People are allowed to be sad that a beloved writer has left due to harassment. Yes, even if they only ever enjoyed the fics privately and never said anything, or if they never read their fics at all. Glimmer was one of the most popular and loved writers in the fandom. The lack of love was not the issue here; it was the harassment. Glimmer had probably tens of thousands of loving comments across all their work; I honestly don’t think more would have helped.  No matter how many good comments you get, the few bad ones can still outweigh the good and ruin everything.

Yes, we can definitely learn from this to be more appreciative to our writers, artists, podficcers, giffers, editors, etc. But the fault does not lay with readers who didn’t love them more by some arbitrary measure, it was the shitheads who harassed them (and I’m sure as fuck not some bystander who looked the other way and thought a BNF could handle it)

[bisexualdinahlance]

I complain about it so much in different fandoms but it's so wild to me how much media will have a character be like "I listen to XYZ artist and XYZ genre and this song is my favorite" and it fits so well with their personality and upbringing and brings some rich flavor to their character and then fandom is like "they listen to nothing but top 40 pop stars <333"

[chocmarss]

Once you read as much Star Wars books as I do (nothing compared to the hardcore fans who read all of legends and disney canon tho), Legends or Disney canon, you get to weed out all the authors you don’t like and you realise hey, they’re anti-Jedi! Or just don’t like Jedi because of [checks list] things they obviously don’t want to agree with. They either villainise the characters or make them downright ‘bad’ for the readers because, get this, they think these characters are a bunch of jackasses when in reality, that’s not what it is. Or they’d outright say, hey these Jedi mfs are a bunch of fucking baby snatchers! And murderers! Yes, I’m pointing at you Karen Traviss, the bane of all Star Wars books.

[bosooka]

Choose violence asks: 17, 22, and 25

17. there should be more of this type of fic/art

Satine fics. Satine art. PRO-satine too okay none of this “oh she has to compromise she was too extreme” fuck outta here with that shit

22. your favorite part of canon that everyone else ignores

Satine Kryze successfully sabotaged Palpatine's plans to kill her and occupy Mandalore with such ruthless efficiency that he put her on the back burner and tried to starve her out with sanctions. And she never caved. Queen shit

25. common fandom complaint that you're sick of hearing

"it's not MY fault all of my faves are male! the female characters are ✨ badly written ✨ " no they're not. you're a misogynist who holds female characters to a 9,000x higher standard than male characters and also refuse to do any sort of extrapolation or interpretation that is remotely favorable towards her while you contort yourself into absolutely preposterous and indefensible positions to defend your Sad Hot Man. hope this helps!!!

[Choose Violence Asks]