#anti brucenat

[neonshrike]

Any Marvel ships you dislike?

I have a lot, but the one I loathe the most is the unfortunately canon for a while B*uceN*t.

[musclesandhammering]

On Canon MCU Ships

It’s always been pretty obvious that Marvel has a heteronormative-shaped elephant in the room when it comes to romances. But I tend to be.. tolerant, I guess.. of certain ones and not others. And I think I finally figured out what it was.

I don’t necessarily enjoy all of them, but I’m ok with the ones like Tony/Pepper (where it had a lot of onscreen time to develop and pepper was an important part of the plot) and Wanda/Vision (where the relationship is essential to both of their characters in the comics, so they made it essential onscreen as well) and Thor/Jane (where Jane was a major part of the Thor legacy in comics and onscreen she never got in the way of the story).

I am, however, completely unforgiving of the ones that introduce a straight-presenting romance just for the sake of having a straight romance.

For example,

There was absolutely no need to pair Bruce and Natasha together in AoU. They were never a thing in the comics, they weren’t central to each other’s stories, they had no romantic build-up in prior movies. It was completely out of the blue and I can’t think of single good reason they did it tbh.

Steve Rogers making out with Sharon Carter was not only gross, but also random and unnecessary. They did have a relationship in the comics, but their connection in the films was flimsy at best and having them get together onscreen after focusing so intensely on Steve’s love for Sharon’s aunt Peggy was… a choice. It didn’t further the story or add to it in any way.

Sylvie is an OC, pure and simple. The creators of the show made her up- she doesn’t even exist in the comics- so there was no prior reason for them to introduce her as a love interest to Loki- they did it because they wanted him to have a relationship with a women. Period. And given that she hindered his characterisation and took story time away from him, there was actually a good incentive not to have her exist as his lover… but y’know. He was a boy, she was girl, can I make it anymore obvious?

If this proves anything, it’s that Marvel is so desperately bought into the whole heteronormative ideal system that they find a way to work a boy-girl romance into literally every. single. plot.

*And btw, by “heteronormative” I don’t just mean like “oh if there’s a romance it has to be straight” No! I mean as in “there HAS to be a romance AND it has to be straight.”

So they’d rather have a weird forced romance between two characters who have zero chemistry than just stick with the romance that isn’t central to the plot. They’d rather have an odd uncomfortable incest-via-time-travel situation than not have a romance at all. They’d rather have the first confirmed queer character engage in selfcest with the only female version of himself than have him paired with a man or no one at all.

It’s exhausting. It’s annoying. It just goes to show that straight culture really does dominate everything and society puts so much emphasis on romance that movie makers even feel like their damn fictional characters aren’t whole and are unfulfilled until they pair them off with someone.

[j2zara]

Dragging my feet bc I have to put together an adventuring party for Ellie bc that’s how this genre works but also I’ve always had a hard time making myself care about characters I’ve just made up unless there’s an Angle on how they’re like a thing I already like. so I’m thinking of what everyone brings to the group (if to cover all the bases a party needs at minimum a fighter, a tank, a healer, a mage, and stealth)

Ellie is maybe a tank or a fighter, some other martial class, I tend to think of her as barbarian adjacent but I also don’t think of her as solely propelled by rage or strength, she’s not like, a brilliant strategist (I mean I do joke that Ellie is not actually that smart ngl) but I do think her combat skill mainly stems from experience and study? She’s not exactly studious but she has read the monster manual back to front and she’s got Fig’s trait of having a soft spot for the misunderstood and macabre, but not in a cringe brucenat “sun’s going down” beauty taming the beast way, in a Laois-coded oh this girls a bit of a freak way.

Unsure if I’m spreading her bases too think but I also see her as having like, a special artificed maul or something, so I think she would know a little bit about artificing to compensate for her size.

To me j3 reads as support, maybe a bard? so he covers a bit of bases for stealth and other kids of support, probably minimal healing and magic in a similar way to how fig can cover a lot of those as the bard of the party (well. She’s multiclassed to hell and back now). I don’t mean stealth in the riz way, I mean it more in the way fig uses disguise self

The other funny thing about what j3 brings to the table is that he’s kinda tbis jack of all trades guy. He has a lot of weird misc interests that divert him until he gets bored & chases the next butterfly. I tend to be kinda averse to Deadpool style fourth wall breaking but since this is a portal fantasy, j3 is kinda Michael Good Place coded in that he has an affinity for human weirdness (expressed mainly through his interest in our lowbrow culture, but he has also read like. Finnegan’s wake). Yes this gives my characters as excuse to be as much of an overthinker as I am about media, what about it

Blue clearly is a cleric so he’s gonna be the healer. Because his patron is the goddess of spring I do think this does overlap with some more Druidic-coded abilities just without the Wild shape (I think giving him Wild shape when j3 has disguise self feels like a bit of a redundancy but maybe that’s just me?). In that there’s a connection with plants and animals that I think could be utilized. (It’s very Layla sky high. Don’t @ me)

The other more comedic thing he brings to me is the fact that he’s a romance reader. I don’t really like fiction where EVERYONE is genre aware bc it feels a bit too lampshade bathos anti-sincerity but blue being the voice of genre romance in Ellie’s ear I think is a necessity and also very funny. Like what, so you’re looking to steal research on reincarnation in the hopes of eventually finding your long lost soulmate and you just so happen to be in a situationship with your hot academic rival who worships the ground you walk on? That’s literally him girl. That’s the soulmate. And Ellie is like blue your brain has been rotted by romance books nobody would get that lucky (she is that lucky). Tbh I think him being right ultimately makes it a bit more forgiving that Ellie and j3 are so mean to him about being such a romantic.

[uhthor]

professor hulk was the worst move marvel could’ve made with bruce’s character because literally no-one wanted to see “the brains and the brawn” put together, ESPECIALLY not bruce.

all through the avengers movies we’ve seen bruce’s hatred toward hulk and how being hulk has turned him into someone that the world feared rather than admired. age of ultron literally centres on how hulk ruins bruce’s life. the entire world hates him because of what hulk has done and how he’s acted. “where in the world am i not a threat?” literally acknowledges bruce seeing himself as a threat and a monster, not just hulk. and nobody actively tries to dissuade bruce of this at all. nat literally tells him “i’m a monster too, we are the same.” and writing bruce out of the narrative by having him fly off into fuck knows land without a single acknowledgement or tiny ounce of closure for his AoU arc was so cheap. and then nobody goes and looks for him? nobody gives a shit? it’s just a testament to how little of a shit marvel give about bruce as a character and his development.

there was a MULTITUDE of trauma that bruce experienced in AoU and it was never acknowledged or talked about ever again. with the screen time he got in ragnarok, it was covered as much as possible (hulk still convinced earth hates him and thor reassuring him they don’t — something hulk has waited two years to hear) and taika was the only person to remotely care about bruce and his dynamic with hulk and treated it with maturity. when he’s away from the other avengers, bruce is somebody that he likes to be. thor is the only person to have treated him this way and treated him like an actual person because he is the one that is most similar to him. i don’t know how they called what he had with nat in AoU “romance” when she actively encouraged bruce to hate himself for what hulk did and does and she harms him to turn him into the hulk. what???

ragnarok actually managed to burn all that to the ground only for the russos to turn it back into comedic relief in infinity war. bruce is at such a crossroads with hulk and trying to balance their dynamic and trust of each other and then fucking endgame rolls around and suddenly they’re the best of friends and bruce thinks it’s a good idea to merge them together. i’m sorry? actual in character bruce would never actively choose to do this a) because he hates hulk and that has been his entire arc for literally a decade b) bruce has shown he prefers to have control and not hulk out if/where possible. he never wants to hulk out obviously, but there’s no way he would ever choose to give hulk any sort of power over him purposefully and c) bruce’s brains and his strength as a human are worth ten times the strength that hulk gives him. not to mention the way bruce’s return to earth is brushed off completely in infinity war when tony doesn’t give bruce a choice in the matter of fighting ebony maw and cull obsidian. bruce literally says “i don’t want to fight but when do i ever get what i want?” and it was put forward as comic relief. are you okay????? once again, in ragnarok, thor asked bruce to fight and when he said no thor never pushed him to do anything. bruce chose to help him on asgard and the important part was that he chose to do it himself, knowing the consequences. thor never forced him, but tony did.

we fell in love with bruce before he was hulk and we’ve grown with him as a character AS bruce, not hulk, not professor hulk. he’s at his best when he’s given the time to be fleshed out as a character, not as some stupid comedic relief and out of character bullshit writing and “development”. it makes me so mad honestly. as one of the most interesting and complex characters in marvel with a story that holds such depth and trauma, he deserves SO much better.

[katmko95]

It’s like whedon made it his own personal mission to make my boy Clint the most boring avenger and there isn’t a day where that doesn’t piss me off

[ironhusband]

Can’t belive Maria dressed like that in AOU and said “where are the LADIES, gentlemen” like that in AOU and Joss Whedon didn’t make her and Nat date but forced Nat into Bruce.

[aemondtragaryen-archived]

literally anybody else would've made sense w nat

LITERALLY.

[padmeisqueen]

Bruce x Natasha for the ship questions.

Yeahhh I unfortunately don’t ship it

Don't Ship It

Why don't you ship it? It seemingly came out of nowhere and then faded just as quickly. And although occasional deviance from comics can be good, I don’t understand why, they didn’t stick to the comics-based relationships (Clint or Bucky for Nat, Betty for Bruce). And Clintasha was already built up so much in Avengers (2012). And I know they ignore The Incredible Hulk, but they established Bruce and Betty well in that! I also think it didn’t fit either of their characters and did a disservice to them both tbh. It also didn’t work within an Avengers movie because there wasn’t enough time to actually develop it believably and instead felt very “pair the spares” trope.

What would have made you like it? Maybe if there had been more build up? Or if it wasn’t really just pushing the narrative of like saving each other from their “dark” selves, but more about a natural growth by being inspired by each other.

Despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it? I do love them both as characters, and I like that Natasha went from fearing him so much to being able to not see him as a monster. And I think they had potential as a solid friendship. And I like their initial meeting.

send me a ship and I'll answer three questions based on if I ship it or not

[dizzying-faust]

I'm thinking back to my days when I was fully in the marvel fandom and being anti bruce//nat (even if I did admit the hatedom is overblown). I know at this point hating on it is a dead horse, but I still think it's one of the worst ships I've seen, even more than st@rco.

Don't get me wrong, st@rco is poorly written as well but at least I admit Star and Marco do have good chemistry and there were some genuine good moments together. If the writing didn't shoot itself in the foot later on, it could have been a decent ship.

Bruce//nat shot itself in the foot the moment it introduced itself. I've tried to get into it, even when it was getting a huge amount of hate, but between the rushed writing, character derailment, the shoehorned moments (like the lullaby and Nat's infertility), and the way Nat treats Bruce, it just did not work.

Kinda glad they didn't do much with it later on. If they couldn't care about making it work, why should I care?

[dadstielkline]

endgame spoilers

that scene where bruce goes "you know who helped me?" and thor's like "idk man, natasha?" and bruce is like "it was you, you helped me" is just so pure.

they really said fuck brucenat and gave thorbruce all the rights.

[neonshrike]

mmm brucenat for the ship game?

(oh god i could go on about this, sorry in advance if you ship them)

it doesn't make any sense! nat is literally afraid of bruce and traumatized by the hulk in avengers 1 and then suddenly she's given the job of calming him down for some reason in aou and she's attracted to him??? but then she constantly manipulates and uses him like everyone else (like kissing him just to throw him down a hole to get him to turn)

brucenat was character assassination for my man

my favorite thing ever is in she-hulk where bruce talks about the whole lullaby thing and he's all like "yeah idk how that worked" because even the writers are in on the fact it makes no sense

Send me a ship and I'll give you my (brutally) honest opinion on it

[mwagneto]

"was it...Natasha?" "it was you" wow endgame really said FUCK straight lives huh thorbruce rights only!

[mandaloriangf]

All these years later, Brucenat still makes me rage.

still have no idea why they allowed that to happen

[alexeishostakoff]

sam and nat had more chemistry in their first scene than bruce and nat did in the entirety of aou

[katmko95]

Why dafuq would you go for that when Clintasha was right there

[violetwolfraven]

Marvel: Bruce and Nat together.

Me, an intellectual: Bruce and Thor together and Nat with Bucky or Clint (not totally sold on either)