#anti Robert Baratheon

[watcherintheweyr]

'Rhaenyra is a bad mom bc she knowingly gave birth to bastards and she knew how much danger they'd be in!!!!'

1. She had no way of knowing those babies wouldn't pop out looking exactly like her, beforehand. And unfortunately she couldn't stop at Jace. The throne needed an heir. Driftmark needed an heir. And a spare was needed as well, given the sheer rate of Targaryen children dying untimely deaths.

2. She had to provide heirs to the throne, and to Driftmark. If she hadn't, society wouldn't have blamed Laenor, they would have blamed her- which makes her position even more unstable, bc then she 'can't fulfill a woman's duty' so why would men think her 'able' to fill a 'man's role' by ruling the kingdom? And she and Laenor tried. He was either unable (meaning infertile or impotent, or unable to get it up), or unwilling. (And they did try. We dont know what they tried but Rhaenyra is shown to be clever in the show so honestly i have no doubt she attempted what Margaery suggested with Renly.) Laenor was in on the entire thing. He was aware of every part of this. He wasn't duped, he wasn't cuckholded- it was a plan greenlit by him, bc this way he and Rhaenyra would both have their heirs and a family. This cannot in any way shape or form be compared to Cersei cuckholding Robert (fuck Robert Baratheon tho), seeing as Robert was **not** at all aware that his children weren't his, and wouldn't have been OK with that.

Either way- she chose not to maritally r*pe her husband and put him through more trauma after it was clear their attempts weren't working. Yall are always so upset for Alicent (rightfully so, bc show!alicent was maritally raped, even if it wasn't considered as such in that time), but you... WANT Rhaenyra to do that to Laenor? Hello???

[And no. Rhaenyra did NOT rape or coerce Criston Cole. The actors, writers, and directors have all stated their sex was consensual and 'an act of love.' It was Rhaenyra going to someone she felt close to and trusted after feeling abandoned and unwanted and betrayed. In that scene you literally watch, as after Cole tells Rhaenyra to stop undressing herself, she moves aside so she isn't blocking his way to the door. The director states that the moment they show Cole folding and setting down his cloak was him choosing his desire over his oaths. And Criston Cole has known Rhaenyra since she was 14. He knew damn well the sort of person she was- and she was not the person who would have harmed him for saying no. She was an intoxicated and emotionally vulnerable 19 year old- Criston was in his late 20s to early 30s. And it's explicitly stated in ep.9 that the ONLY person a Kingsguard cannot refuse is the king. In ep.7 Criston disobeys a direct order from Alicent when she wants him to mutilate Lucerys. Criston Cole was not assaulted. Stop trying to assign Aegon's sins to Rhaenyra so that you can feel better for supporting him.]

3. In the books, the rumors of their bastardry at large halted when all of Rhaenyra's boys' cradle eggs hatched. The ONLY people who continued to try and raise issue were the core green faction. But the realm at large *did not give a fuck* why? Because every actually relevant party claimed those boys. Repeatedly and without flinching. Laenor claimed and loved those boys even face to face with Alicent's bullshit. Corlys claimed and love those boys- he was proud of them, and it's been stated by the actor in the show that Luke was his favorite- that given the... events of ep.10, Corlys will be out for blood. And Viserys repeatedly insisted upon their legitimacy- because Laenor and Corlys claimed them, because he knew that by forcing Rhaenyra to marry Laenor in order to repair the damage his insults caused House Velaryon, that he had backed her into a corner.

Rhaenyras boys are remembered to history as Velaryon. Even **Green supporters** noted that they were good, capable, intelligent, and **worthy** princes. That their deaths were unfortunate *for the realm.*

Legally, those boys are legitimate. They cannot be proven illegitimate without Laenor renouncing them, and he never did. Furthermore, trying to declare children illegitimate due to their appearance is a stupid, dangerous precedent. The fact that it's people who have no ties to House Velaryon pushing these rumors and pushing for disinheritance makes it even worse, because they're meddling in the succession of a House that *is not theirs.* if that became a standard, imagine the feuds and conflicts that would erupt- lords pushing for the children of rivals to be declared illegitimate all for the sake of trying to grasp and steal land, power, and influence as a norm? The realm would tear itself apart. Not to mention the sheer danger that would place women in, in Westeros.

Furthermore, even whilst usurping her, even while calling her children bastards, the Greens also imply Laenor's homosexuality was inherited by the Velaryon princes- that they would use Rhaenyra's 'promiscuity' and Laenor's 'predilections' to turn the Red Keep into a brothel- ironic, considering that's more what Aegon would've done. So even while claiming that Rhaenyras children are bastards that shouldn't inherit, they try to state that what the boys inherit or learn from Laenor makes them unfit for the throne. They can't keep their own damn story straight- because their usurpation was never about what is moral, what is right, or the greater good. It was about greed. Power. Sexism.

It doesn't matter what those boys looked like, especially seeing as Rhaenys had dark hair in the books. What matters is that Corlys and Laenor and Viserys claimed them and declared them legitimate, and that they **never** deviated from that.

As for Vaemond, he was a second son. And he waited until Corlys and Viserys were dying and too ill to stop him to make a grasp for power. Youre not supposed to look at that and feel hes in the right. Youre supposed to look at that and see a man consumed by greed, and literally trying to bury Corlys' will and intentions before the man is even in a grave. He was NEVER Corlys' heir- he just wanted power. It wasn't about his House, or their legacy, it was about him.

(And before yall start shit about Rhaenyras boys stealing Laena's girls' inheritance... Rhaena and Baela are *TARGARYEN*. Not Velaryon. Their claim was to the throne or to any holdings in Daemon's name. NOT to Driftmark.)

Rhaenyras boys being betrothed to Rhaena and Baela tied up any issue of 'Velaryon blood.' Baela would have been queen consort of the seven kingdoms at Jace's side, and they very clearly adored one another in book and show. Rhaena would have been Lady of the Tides- which she never would have had a chance for, without Rhaenyra (and Laena) making those betrothals. She and Luke were also canonically very close- and in show she's very encouraging of him whenever he looks nervous or uncertain. They had a bond.

Rhaenyra stole nothing. She gave those girls more. And she loved them- they were the only daughters she got to have, seeing as the Greens treachery caused the early death of baby Visenya. If she hadn't loved them, she wouldn't have trusted Rhaena to look after Joffrey or give her Morning's egg from Syrax. She wouldn't have immediately invited both girls to the table when she was queen, which is something her father did not do for her until much, much later. He allowed Rhaenyra's voice to be silenced too often when she was first made heir. Rhaenyra did not repeat that hurt to her girls or her boys.

Anyways, moving on.

You lot do also remember that Rhaenyra herself has Velaryon blood, right? Jaehaerys I's mother was Alyssa Velaryon. Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya the Conquerors' mother was Valaena Velaryon. It's not immediate, but there *is* Velaryon blood through *all* of Rhaenyras boys.

Ultimately, Rhaenyras boys were only in danger because of the core Green faction usurping the throne. If they hadnt- no succession crisis or rebellion could have truly threatened Rhaenyras boys- because none of them would have had dragons. All of Rhaenyras children loved one another- her sons by Daemon would not have turned on her sons with Laenor (and Harwin). They were a true, loving family- possibly one of the healthiest and most close knit one House Targaryen ever boasted.

And another thing... 'her having babies with Harwin was stupid, she should have picked someone Valyrian!'

Here's the thing. Rhaenyra had to be careful as hell choosing who would father her and Laenor's heirs. She had to choose someone who was physically close, and who could be trusted. Someone who wouldn't try to publicly claim those boys in boast or jealousy. Someone who would keep their mouth shut and had no ambition of their own in regards to the throne. Do you really think Vaemond Velaryon (as I see him suggested a lot) would've kept his mouth shut? That he wouldn't have tried to use this to blackmail Rhaenyra and Laenor for more power and status? Do you think Rhaenys would have ever fought for or supported Rhaenyra if Rhaenyra had tried to have Corlys sire her children? And flying to see Daemon in Pentos and having a purely Valyrian child 9 months later would have made things look even more suspect.

Furthermore... she chose someone who cared for her deeply. Who clearly had a positive relationship with Laenor. She chose someone so she wouldn't have to traumatize herself- she took power over her body in a way almost no Westerosi woman has ever been able to. They were a family unit- Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Harwin. Those children were loved and cherished by two fathers and their mother. They were raised never doubting their mothers love, nor their father's- either father. They were raised and educated to be true, good princes of the realm.

Rhaenyra fought like hell for her children. She was an incredible mother. Yall just believe everything the Green faction says without looking at it critically, and that's unfortunate as hell.

[lizzie-queenofmeigas]

It may be unfair, but Jaehaera dying serves a purpose. The same as Maegor's and Robert's having no living legitimate children. The three of them started wars for no reason and were in fact usurpers (even though Maegor had a point he could have gone about it differently) they bled the Realm for their greed or bloodlust. And the three of them ended up having no real legacy.

Maegor is nicknamed "The Cruel" and every time someone is terrible they compare them to him. He has no descendants despite trying desperately to have one.

Aegon II is considered one of the worst kings, and he dies pathetically poisoned by his own men. He was adamant that Rhaenyra's bloodline had to disappear, but it was his who did.

Robert waged a war for his own pride. He died pathetically, his children are actually his wife's bastards (and I'm pretty sure everyone knows it they just don't care) and the smallfolk preferred Aerys II to him.

So Jaehaera died, it's sad because she is an innocent child, but it makes sense. The sins of the father and all that.

[reignof-fyre]

In GRRM's world, its pretty fucking clear that usurpers never win. Maegor died without kids, Aegon, son of Alicent, and his children died (I do feel bad that his kids died, they were innocent), even Aemond died without issue [he was regent for a while], and Robert Baratheon died without legitimate issue and he usurped the Targaryens. You know which bloodline did survive? The Targaryens through Daenerys, so, you know, the author has put it right in our faces that these three men weren't supposed to have the throne in the first place, for all they sat on it.

Even the damn Blackfyre's died out in the male line, which is another glaring indicator that usurpers and would-be usurpers, don't live long even if they do "win" for a brief amount of time.

The rightful Kings and queen's bloodlines survived despite the usurpers best attempts to end them. Aegon the Uncrowned and Aenys' line survived through Jaehaerys, Rhaenyra's line survived through her sons and their descendants, and Aerys and Rhaegar's through Daenerys and Jon Snow.

In GRRM's world, usurpers don't get a happy ending and he's made that pretty clear so people who support Aegon the usurper and Robert Baratheon can cry that they were rightful Kings all they want when their direct bloodlines literally no longer exist save for bastards on Roberts side lmao

EDIT: the Baratheon male line, if Stannis doesn't have a son, is also pretty well done and finished. Stannis is the last legitimate male Baratheon left. His daughter Shireen is the last legitimate female Baratheon left. Even more proof for ya.

[drakaripykiros130ac]

The manner in which Robert’s Rebellion is so praised disgusts me sometimes. Another classic mentality of “Let’s rid the world of the evil Targaryens”.

What the Andals mean by that is “Evil because…they’re not like us. And because they took away the chance for us to do whatever the f*ck we want.”

Aerys II was a mad king who certainly needed to be deposed. But you depose a king, not a dynasty (especially not a dynasty who has managed to do more for Westeros than the idiot Andals would ever acknowledge). Prince Rhaegar Targaryen was more than competent to take over and it was speculated that he was thinking of deposing his father as well.

But then the oh so brave Robert Baratheon, in his jealousy over the whole “Lyanna Stark situation”, gathered the necessary forces to depose a great dynasty only to…sit on his ass, drink and spend money on whores for his entire reign.

And what happened after he died? A succession crisis which brought a whole lot of misery to the Realm.

There hasn’t been a single good king since the Targaryen dynasty ended.

Robert Baratheon = lazy ass drunk

Joffrey Baratheon = psycho

Tommen Baratheon = naive and easily manipulated

So tell me again how “bad” the Targaryens are and what “good” the Andals did for the people. Because if we make a list of the pros and cons of having Targaryens rule the Realm vs having the Andals do it (or worse, go back to having seven independent Kingdoms), the Targaryens would win, no doubts about it.

[venusintheblindspots-blog]

the dehumanization of halaena to justify blood and cheese is giving me flashbacks of how y’all treated elia martell

[darklinaforever]

I don't know if you realize the stupidity of these comments ?

[swordsandarms]

When I think of how Lyanna is seemingly (mis)understood in spite of contradicting clues in the story, I think of how it happens with Elizabeth Bennet (Pride and Prejudice) and a similar typecasting as the one dimensional "spunky, bold" kind of girl.

Elizabeth has her flaws, but that is not being a stubborn girl screeching about love in spite of her family's precarious financial future - hence her own, too. Elizabeth pragmatically turns away from her infatuation with Wickham before it turns into more after one warning from her aunt that they would both be in ruin, and she considers accepting an offer from Colonel Fitzwilliam whom she doesn't love, but they have a comfortable dynamic that she thinks of as enough. On the other hand, she also rejects the man who would inherit Longbourn, Mr Collins - a marriage that could have saved her family - and even her eventual love interest, Mr Darcy - awfully wealthy. Which gains her the cliche characterisation.

But Elizabeth's problem is she is wary of marrying a man she cannot even respect - not necessarily love. It has impacted her since childhood due to the unfit marriage in character and intellect between her own parents, and she can understand the need to marry for financial stability, as long as she can have a reasonable mutually positive dynamic with her partner, but to not even hold respect for someone she'd be tied to for life is the ultimate misery to dive into.

Likewise, Lyanna doesn't even corner her brother about not being madly in love with the man they chose for her. She challenges his character, calmly and rationally - her argument is very much that love cannot make up for unequal character. She also brings up Mya Stone not because she is a hypocrite against bastards, but because she has come prepared with facts for argument - which is exactly as what Ned remembers it, a true fact which corners him in his side of the argument. He doesn't challenge Robert's deficiencies. He's the "naive" one saying love/a woman will change him. He's the oldest but not the mature one - he's the silly romantic blinded by a man's charisma and charm for most of his life. (In Lyanna's eyes, he would also be a man who proclaimed to bring an innocent KOLT to the Mad King himself for the sake of glory - fact which must also sink his character).

Because Jane Austen isn't George Martin and in a different genre, Elizabeth Bennet gets to marry a man who is rich, AND handsome, AND the love of her life - all ONLY after he gains her higher regard in his character and virtues. (Darcy himself isn't some cliche of a man changed by love as naive Ned would have life work. He has the spine to admit Elizabeth is right, and he initially wants to let her know that upon re-meeting her, and that all that is not what he thinks a man should be - what he wants to be - accountability, something so crucial, yet something that Robert Baratheon would only - and that barely - prove only on his death bed).

But Lyanna's unknown POV past Harrenhal completely erases the clues of Robert's lowly character being unveiled to her in person. She is portrayed as stuck in the "naive"/"hypocritical" role of the girl who once before Harrenhal has told her brother she for the time being had bad feelings about this man for a start (those having turned out to be good instincts long term, and at the least informed short term, mind you).

KOLT is not about Robert, and not even about Rhaegar, though I would say his actions bear more interest fandom wide. But it is about Lyanna. And while within that perspective it might also be about what Rhaegar's actions mean to HER POV, the fact that Robert is also there, that he would have at this point in time her attention as the man chosen for her, the few mentions of what she must be seeing while to the reader they're ignored or dismissed - simply because we're narratively PAST that, and the next thing we know of Lyanna is that she's PAST HIM.

But Robert is there, and Lyanna is thrown in his company. Howland doesn't care - Lyanna is the hero in this defining episode of his life. HE's just the Storm Lord who is getting drunk and shouting about giving the KOLT to the mad King himself. But somewhere Lyanna is watching. The debauched lifestyle. The man who puts his own pride and potential for glory ahead of an innocent's wellbeing. The man who would soon be "just rolling in for a fight" in a war that defined a continent because life to him is a party and a game.

But women cannot be individuals with a dignity of their own. If they have any consciousness they better be fighting the patriarchy in the trenches or they are spunky selfish girls wanting shallow things instead of sacrificing for the family's wealth and status. There's no in between.

[thirstyvulcan]

I see some certain types of Elia stans call Lyanna, and by extension Arya, male wannabes yet these same so-called Elia stans have no problem with the Sand Snakes. Is using a weapon or being a tomboy only ok if it's a Martell woman? Also, I doubt actual canon Elia would look down on women who use swords, especially since she was close with Oberyn and descended from badass women like Nymeria, Meria, Rhaenys, Alyssa, etc.

Furthermore, I don't think Elia, whose been raised in politics since birth, would think Lyanna is "a whore that stole her man", especially a man in an arranged marriage she was merely fond of. If anything, she'd have been more worried about any potential son of Lyanna turning out to be a Daemon Blackfyre instead of a Brynden Rivers. Reducing Elia to a "The Boy is Mine" type of character really dumbs her down in my opinion.

Also, I really hate the shipping of Elia with Robert Baratheon. Like Rhaegar or hate Rhaegar, the fact is that Elia was loving and protective towards the children she had with him. Why would she wanna marry Robert, the man who allied with her children's murderers and called her children "dragon spawn"? And no, there is no "right" woman who could make Robert a good man. Not Elia, not Lyanna, not anybody. Robert was already a bag of shit before Cersei and his abuse of her is likely what set the example of Joffrey being abusive to Sansa.

[katerina-q]

Oh so this is the interview that made Robert's stans crazy? Sorry folks, but grrm is right.

Robert was just a warmonger who was bitter about losing a "girlfriend". He only cared about himself and his ego.

Ah, i love how grrm is not blaming Rhaegar and Lyanna for the war lol

[queen-morgana91]

if Tywin is a scumbag with zero redeeming qualities it is his fault and his alone, not Rhaegar and Lyanna's 🤦‍♂️

He killed Elia and her children not because they were a threat, but because Rhaegar married her and not Cersei. It was a punishment.

Even Oberyn said it 😭 Why do you think he sent the Mountain to kill them? Why Ned is blaming only Tywin for their deaths? He hates that man with a burning passion.

it doesn't matter who started the rebellion, there are rulers in war. Tywin is a war criminal. if Robert was a better man he would have punished Tywin. But no, he called Rhaegar's children dragonspawn....

2024 and people are still giving these two a pass

[duchess-of-oldtown]

The thing about Stannis that people often forget that he was only 17 when Robert's Rebellion started. His parents are dead, his older brother who was meant to be in charge and head of the family has practically abandoned him with all the responsibilities of being Lord of Storm's End, being head of the family and raising Renly who was 3 or 4 at this time. He's seventeen and all of a sudden he has to make a choice between what he knows is the "right" thing to do which is staying loyal to the Crown or standing with his brother, who he no doubt loves despite his later declaration in ACOK. He's seventeen and there's an army outside the walls, everybody inside those walls has to rely on him when he knows that they really want Robert, he is in charge when doubtless he wants Robert back. He's the one who is meant to be in charge after all, the one with the experience, he's only 17. He has to watch Renly grow thinner and thinner, likely going without food himself just to give Renly an extra mouthful here and there. He has to see people turn on House Baratheon from inside the castle, probably knowing them all his life. He has to punish them or end up looking weak, he can't afford weakness. Not when there are hundreds depending on him. And Robert. He's depending on him too, afterall. Then comes the news that Rhaegar is dead, King's Landing is Robert's and he's King now. Weeks later, Stannis gets news that the Siege is about to be lifted. Doubtless he looks out over the walls and sees who has come to save him. It's not Robert. It's Ned Stark, who Robert went to war with, who Robert sees as a brother, far more than he's ever treated Stannis. And even then Stark has to run off for another duty, leaving Stannis to deal with Storm's Ends recovery. Then when things are settled, the Baratheons unite. Robert has a task for Stannis rather than a thank you or an apology. Stannis grits his teeth and gets on with it. He fails to capture the last Targaryens. He returns only to hear Robert's grumbles. And when comes time for dealing with succession, Renly- who is only a child - gets Storm's End. Stannis gets Dragonstone, the reminder of his failure not his achievements. It breaks Stannis's trust in Robert. In the following years, Robert becomes more and more of a disappointment. He beds Delena Florent at Stannis's wedding ruining the nuptials which are nothing more to Stannis than a political move no doubt recommended by Jon Arryn. He becomes more lazy, more distant, less and less of somebody to look up. To make matters worse, Renly who Stannis protected, starved for and practically raised, still looks up to Robert, pushing Stannis away. By AGOT, Stannis is isolated by his own House, trapped in a loveless marriage, weighed down by duties he never asked for, responsibilities that he has to shoulder because Robert won't, crushed under the knowledge of the Lannister Twincest and its repercussions and he's just been pushed aside again by Ned Stark, this stranger who Robert idolises so much. Its the last straw so he leaves. Months later, Robert is dead, Renly is at the heart of trouble and the Realm is bleeding again. Stannis declares himself King, not only because Melisandre wraps the shroud of messiah around him or he really feels any sort of higher calling or ambition. He does it because that's what he does, he cleaned up Robert's messes, he steps into Robert's shoes and does his duty. Just has he's been doing since he was just a child.

[lizzie-queenofmeigas]

I don't like Robert, he's a bad person, but he's the same as Rhaegar, who is irresponsible and impregnated a 15-year-old girl. It's no coincidence that Ned remembers Lyanna when he talks to Barra's mother. They both started a war for their own selfish reasons. They both have bastards, although Robert has more, but it's because he lived longer than him and finally they both deserved their respective deaths.

Wow, you are so wrong.

Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love, that's pretty much canon, and we don't know what their plans were.

And no, Robert didn't have more bastards because "he lived longer", he had more bastards because he fucked or raped every woman around. Rhaegar only had children out of duty and out of love, there's not even a mention of him having a lover (outside Lyanna) nor frequenting brothels. In fact Ned himself thinks that Rhaegar wasn't the type to frequent brothels.

Rhaegar did not start a war, that was his father and Brandon Stark for being an idiot and call for the head of a guy whose father likes to burn people.

And Rhaegar did not deserve death.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

aegon always being manipulated by his grandfather and mother, but of course... he would be a better king lol try saying that otto thinks aegon is an incompetent drunk fool and who wants him to just sit his ass on the throne but he's the one who's going to rule for a TG stans

Aegon is the perfect example for how the ASOIAF fandom's standards for men are infinitely lower than those for women. Aegon, the Baratheon brothers, Aemond, and Jamie Lannister are all men who are just shitty people, yet the fandom is obsessed with defending them.

It's always excusable for a man to do something awful, even rape multiple people, as long as they're sometimes funny, are attractive, or do a few nice things. Women, meanwhile, are hated for any mistake if they stray too far from the idea of a "proper woman". Arya, Daenerys, Rhaenyra, Catelyn, and Cersei are turned from being complex characters, some of whom have done awful things, into one-dimensional demons.

The fans who become TG stans have always been sexist in one way or another, HoTD just gives them an excuse to be more open about it. Those who defend and love Aegon do the same for Robert Baratheon. Both men are abusive to their wives, are rapists, have an unknown number of bastards (since TG is obsessed with Rhaenyra's), and are bad rulers. Yet they are seen as superior to the women around them (especially the women who oppose them) simply because they are men.

[thelandswemadeofpaper]

As much I hate Forced or Unwilling Marriages, the power imbalance between the wife and the husband should be considered

Even if the man didn't agree with the wedding, in a patriarchal society, he does have far more power than his bride

To judge things like cheating, treating his/her spouse badly depends on other factors like a previous consensual agreement (Laenor/Rhaenyra) or abuse (Robert/Cersei)

Respect is the minimum in the relationship

[maidragoste]

I'm reading Game of Thrones and I just got to the part where Robert tells Ned that Lyanna should have been buried somewhere else. I AM FURIOUS WITH THIS MAN.

LYANNA BELONGED TO WINTERLFELL.WINTERFELL WAS HER HOME. SHE WANTED TO GO BACK TO HER HOME.

SHE HAD TO BE BURIED IN HER HOME IDIOT

IF I WERE NED I WOULD HAVE ALREADY KICKED HIM OUT FOR DARE TO TELL ME WHERE TO BURY MY SISTER 😡😭

[swordsandarms]

Someone once wrote it was dumb luck for Cersei's plan to kill Robert by just making him slightly drunker than usual to work. My new theory is the gods just let her have this one. Like, they seem to need a capable enough Targaryen from Aerys and Rhaella's line for their grand plans and Robert killed - and supported the killing - of a bunch of them already and at this point in the story he wants to assassinate Daenerys, too.

The gods were just out there like-