#and the characters are the same people. and they like w*ncest

[ihavebeenallthingsunholy]

IM WHEEZING I JUST FOUND SOME OF THE WORST SPN FANS OUT THERE ITS SO FUNNY LIKE THEY ALL TAKE IT SO SERIOUSLY???? WHAT DID CAS EVER DO TO YOU??? WHY IS JARPAD THE ONLY THING ON YOUR BLOG???

[themoodyestj]

Question why do you automatically Think that if you ship destiel they are hellers? Majority of destiel shippers are j2m fans. So are they hellers as well ? J2m are the majority of fans and majority of them ship destiel. So maybe instead of saying only hellers ship destiel maybe look at their sm account before jumping to conclusions that they are hellers 🙄🤦‍♀️.

Also maybe learn to respect everyone even if they don’t deserve respect it’s called being a decent human being. And maybe don’t screenshot destiel shippers post when their posts are not even harmful and they are just having fun. You do know that there is nothing wrong with having fun with the fandom you are in. Destiel shippers do that majority of them time. Listen I am a heller and a destiel shipper and I really don’t care if you are pro ship or not. I don’t think that you are homophobic if you don’t ship destiel or ship at any characters at all. I am more easy going. Just don’t be homophobic, transphobic or racist than you are fine whether you are pro ship or not I do not care just don’t be homophobic, transphobic and racist than you are fine. I also don’t allow any w*ncests come near me because they are quite vile towards me for no reason.

Anon, I really want to answer your questions and I am open to discussion but please do me a favour. Next time you send an ask, can you please divide your arguments into bullet points? Your asks are incredibly hard to decipher for me as they are very dense and a bit confusing.

But i will try my best to answer, hoping you will read what I write, because I feel like at this point, I'm repeating myself a lot.

1 - I would consider a Heller a Destiel extremist. Someone who will - defend the ideal not considering other people's rights to an opinion, feeling entitled to attack personally someone for not having the same views. However, Im not very hung up of semantics. Most of all, I call out bad behavior, not ships. There are Destiel shippers that may not like Jared at all, but keep to themselves. It's the hate I criticize. Whose account should I be looking into, btw? Because 99% of the asks I get... are anon.

2 - Respecting someone who doesn't deserve respect is not being a decent human being, it's being spineless. I WILL NOT, under any circumstances, endorse or accept behavior that I find unacceptable. I will not allow bullying, death threats or accusations. It's because of this "forced acceptance of everything" that we have vile behavior in this fandom, and people feeling the right to do pretty much everything because we "need to accept them." I won't, don't count me on that. And honestly, neither should you. That's why you're in my inbox.

3- Please present the link of the post where I took screenshots of Hellers "having fun". I don't answer to vague accusations. But I'm very open to answer and assume what I write.

4 - Again, and I have been very vocal about it in my other posts, I don't assume the bad comes from just one side. Delulus exist everywhere. I have blocked Wincest blogs because, due to algorithm error, I had some very disturbing things appearing in my deadline (mostly fanart). I have blocked Hellers also and never mention them.

I live and let live, as long as these people stay on their lane.

Now you come here, talking about respect, and acceptance, and living and let live but... you're in my inbox. Are you one of those Hellers I criticize? Because if you're not, why are you not practicing what you preach?

Again, be brave, come at me with your handle, we can have a chat. Don't be a coward. If you are so cool and have nothing to hide... you shouldn't have any problems with that, would you?

[thegeminisage]

i just read broken road and i enjoyed it immensely. i just see it differently (not exactly negatively) now knowing you once(?) shipped sam and dean. does that have any influence into it🤔 just simply wondering not interrogating u. i’m interested in that essay even

(prev ask)

ok, my essay is under the cut. it's very, very long. everybody please consider this your warning for inc*st ships if you'd rather not get into it

first point: actually, broken road was not in any way secretly influenced by any previous love of sam/dean, if that helps you any. i wrote it in post november 5th mode and you better believe i was not remotely capable of thinking about anything else. thank you for enjoying it! it's very very special to me and the time i spent working on it and posting it are genuinely some of my fondest memories. cringe <3

second point: to just honestly answer your question, since you're not interrogating me and not being an asshole (thank you and i'm not saying that sarcastically, i have gotten sooo many rude asks about this), my answer is, "eh." my favorite was sam/dean/cas (once he started being on the show) because i'm a cas girl first and foremost. and if i come across a fic where the premise looks good i might check it out, but i basically never actively seek it out bc my preference rn is strongly for destiel.

(that said i do like sam and dean's relationship a lot as brothers or as...whatever else, i'm mostly neutral as long as we don't leave cas out of things, AND i'm perpetually bitter about sam getting left out in the cold, so if i wanna read good sam fic, sometimes people who ship him with the other main characters will do a better job than making him the perpetual longsuffering butt of the slash joke. same goes for early seasons spn fic: sometimes the sam/dean writers just do a better job. i very rarely get the hankering though because i like late seasons, such as season 13, who is my best friend. i think sam got pushed to the side SO STRONGLY that sometimes people sometimes subconsciously associate him being written well or mattering at all to dean beyond functioning as dean's accessory and/or proof/the catalyst of dean's traumatic upbringing with w*ncest. because otherwise they see him as a minor character (?!?!), and why are you bringing this minor character up so much if you're not secretly shipping him with dean, The Main Character? god, does anybody remember when SAM was the main character?? sorry there is truly not enough punctuation in this paragraph.)

now for the actual essay: i do get a little irritated/confused with how much pearl-clutching people do about sam/dean. like, this is EASILY the most harmless of the "problematic" ships. they're consenting adults, barring some tropes and genres i would not like to read nor discuss. and before cas came into the scene (and sometimes even after) we got baited just as hard for the two of them. it was weird and unsettling because the nature of inc*st is that it's often weird and unsettling. their dynamic is unhealthy and codependent and that's part of their appeal in whatever form. people who get the heebie jeebies because it's "problematic" are missing the point. there are also weird and unsettling vibes between dean and john, because that was part of the abuse. that actually played into broken road way more than any sam/dean stuff. he was a bad father and he made dean his backup wife and there was probably some emotional inc*st happening CANONICALLY. we all watched that in the show right?? but for some reason talking about that is fine and talking about whatever sam and dean have going on gets you put on block lists. because sometimes sam/dean fics are just for fun and whenever we talk about john we have people in fics punching him out or killing him. like we have to point our fingers at john and go "THAT'S BAD" loudly enough to ensure everyone else that we're above moral criticism. it's like. weirdly thought police-y. (and tbh, that's part of what inspired broken road - i was looking for nuance re: john and couldn't fucking find any because of this weird black-and-white mentality fandom has developed.)

and it's so hypocritical sometimes! i remember deancas stuff used to have "w*ncest fans dni" banners all over it, in the guise of protecting and standing with survivors, but when actual survivors would say things like "actually those banners just remind me of everything all over again" they would mostly get ignored?? it was so performative, like this kneejerk reaction of promising everybody YOU know what's bad so you won't get ostracized. my tastes don't usually run very dark so most of the sam/dean i wrote or read was way less unhealthy than, say, whatever lestat and louis have going on in iwtv. but nobody's making blocklists of iwtv enjoyers because that would be insane? there's just a little bit of cognitive dissonance happening i think.

like, obviously, yes, in real life inc*st pretty much always speaks to something having gone extremely wrong in someone's life and a dynamic being extremely unhealthy at best, but in fiction it is possible for it to be consensual, even if it is a little fucked up or the people involved are a little damaged.

(warning for discussion of rape fic from here down) i'm not actually totally anti-censorship though. i do firmly believe there are some types of fiction people shouldn't write! i wouldn't read parent/child anything, or any kind of rape fic unless it's tastefully engaging with the aftermath of something like that. sam/dean just seems so, so tame to me in comparison to some of the other stuff fandom has come up with. in 2014-2016 people used to write a thing called hydra trash party, which was just porn of bucky barnes being gang-raped by hydra agents. ie nazis. and half the time he was headcanoned as jewish. like??? can you even GET more tasteless than that??? i hated that shit (and i still do, deeply). i talked about how much i hated it all the time and people would come after me like "well who are YOU to censor other people? what if the authors are survivors working through their own trauma? you can't ask authors to disclose that kinda stuff if they want a license to write graphic nazi rape porn!" i got literal hate mail about it. equal but opposite energy of those dni banners - both people claiming it was "about survivors" to justify doing, uh, whatever they wanted. it's just fucking wild to me that in less than a decade my stance of "i don't care what people write if everybody is a CONSENTING ADULT," while not changing at all whatsoever, moved from being too prudish to being too problematic.

another side tangent (sorry, you did ask) is that i was a slash writer on FFN in the video game and anime fandoms during the late 00s (ironically, quite a lot of straight men there) and holy mother of god...the kind of shit comments i would get for putting two dudes kissing in the same fic, even though it was PLASTERED with disclaimers. i felt like the mob was after me sometimes lol. and that's sort of the way i felt once those w*ncest asks started. i remember back in the peak of post nov 5 stuff if i like, reblogged art or gifs from certain blogs people would write in to tell me that person was a sam/dean shipper so i'd take down my (gen, non sam/dean) post. i felt paranoid (and still feel paranoid) reblogging GEN sam & dean content because i'm worried people will take it the wrong way. i actually deleted one from my drafts earlier today - i'd been thinking about it but then i got your ask and decided against it, lol. what a way to live! especially in fandom, which is (and i hate to politicize it this way but it's true) a queer-adjacent space that's supposed to be free of the kind of judgment you'd get for not being a normie irl.

on FFN, one of the many pairings i wrote for actually involved an underaged teenager and and an adult. but as i was the same age as that teenager at the time, and had a crush on that adult character and toootally wanted to marry him, i couldn't see what was wrong with pairing them together. like i quite literally did not know better. it's a pairing that actually disgusts me now, lol. if people now could send me asks about what i did back then to try and "gotcha" me (they can't because it's all been deleted) i'd be really pissed about it, because you can't continue to punish people after they've learned and grown. everyone's been so terribly kind about broken road, and there's this real fear of losing or tainting something so special and wonderful just because people have a problem with the fics you read or wrote a decade ago. it sucks. i do think there's a line (like, maybe don't write nazi rape porn, also whatever was going on with that j2 haiti fic), but i also think we've got to try at least a little not to reinvent puritanism on fandom websites of all places. that's wack.

and man, i know i said it already, but i just keep coming back to w*ncest being SO TAME? like it doesn't compute that someone would get icked out over CONSENSUAL sam/dean and meanwhile ship for example rowena/ketch like he didn't torture her or sam/lucifer because they like mark pellegrino like lucifer isn't sam's fucking rapist. and not even get "in trouble" for it. it boggles the mind.

and like, idk. i initially got my hackles up at your ask because it's 1 of a million, and i could dodge the questions by taking down the one sam/dean/cas fic on my profile ig, but that fic is how i met a good friend of mine and she'd be sad if i were to take it down, so i don't want to have to, and i shouldn't have to. you know??

my final thought: i've been writing fanfic for 20 years. 20 years ago when i started writing fic sam/dean would have been unacceptable because it's two men. 10 years ago it was fine because they were the ONLY two men, and every woman in supernatural got bullied off of the show, and people writing het got hatemail. now it's unacceptable again because of the inc*st. 10 years from now, who knows what will happen? so i try to base my morals on what i feel i can live with as a person rather than what a bunch of people on the internet (i'm not including you in that) tell me what i can or can't do, or should or shouldn't do.

i really hope this answer doesn't like, ruin broken road for you, or anyone else. i don't think of myself As A W*ncest Shipper at all, but neither do i deny that i used to be, and i certainly don't have any problem with (again) keyword CONSENTING keyword ADULTS in fanfic now, even if they do happen to be siblings ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i just hope that like someday we find a middle ground where we can live and let live but also have enough sense not to write nazi erotica. if that's problematic of me, so be it 😔✊

[orionsangel86]

A bit of a moan under the cut...

It's funny to be in this position where I follow a ton of SPN blogs, and a ton of Good Omens blogs, and so I get a lot of interesting hot takes across my dash.

It's fine for people to be critical, but I do find criticism of GO from SPN fans kinda hilarious and hypocritical.

"the writing was like bad fanfiction"

You did actually watch Supernatural yes? Even season 4 had its terrible fanfiction moments *cue trauma memory of Sam Winchester explaining "w*ncest" to his brother and shudder*

"There was no plot at all and it was all pointless."

Hmmm... reminds me of seasons 12, 13, and 14 of SPN

"The relationship reveal at the end was so stupid and clearly a crack ship from tumblr"

Yeah I was also really surprised when Dean and Crowley hooked up in Season 10.

"Neil Gaiman was clearly bullied into making them canon by tumblr, he absolutely hated fans asking if Crowley and Aziraphale were gay and in love back before the first season came out"

And? Why is him changing his mind (if thats what happened) a bad thing? What exactly do you think was happening behind the scenes at Supernatural regarding Destiel?

"Even if Neil Gaiman DID change his mind and decide to make it romantic, its still disingenuous and he's lying to you about what he planned with Terry Pratchett"

Sure. He could be. Funny how sometimes at some point people may see the light regarding their characters and realise that the story works better if they are together - at least Neil Gaiman was able to follow through, unlike Bobo Berens and Andrew Dabb who had their vision shat on by the CW.

Maybe he is exaggerating about what exactly he and Terry plotted out. He's protective of Terry's memory but clearly also painfully aware of how rabid the fans are and has gone a bit overboard in reassuring them. How many lies have you been told by the creators of SPN? How many times have Jackles and Mollins lied to you? Queerbaited you? Mocked you? Have you ever heard of a little thing called growth?

If you are gonna be critical about GO and Neil Gaiman, by all means go ahead. But DO NOT then sit there in the same breath and say SPN was better, that SPN had your back, or sing SPNs praises in any way.

Both shows have good and bad moments. Both sets of creators have lied at times, and tried to do whats best for their fans at times. Both shows are filled to the fucking brim with fanservice - at least GO didn't mock and ridicule its fans by either portraying them all as sad loser men, obsessive stalkers, or teenage girls who are a bit too obsessed with the sappier moments to be taken seriously. The fandom inserts in GO were older, wiser, calmer, and rather badass lesbians actually. I thought that was pretty neat.

I'm not even a huge Neil Gaiman stan, find most of his asks cringe (and often wonder if he picks out the cringier ones specifically to toy with and mock the fandom) and def find some of his explanations surrounding the origins of the GO sequel contradictory and nonsensical. Whilst he is a great fantasy writer, he isn't the best at screenwriting imo. He is also rubbish at comedy and needs support on that always. It is very clear to me that he has absorbed some of the tumblr mentality in his later years, as this is apparant to me in both GO and the Sandman, and yet, as someone who rather loves the tumblr mentality, I'm all for it. I think he is maybe trying a bit TOO hard to appeal to the tumblr specific queer community which can be alienating for wider audiences (i say this as someone who considers herself very much part of the tumblr specific queer community), and I do sometimes wonder if there is something a little bit disengenuous on his side about that, because, well, how much can an older cishet white man ever really understand the overly millennial/Gen Z queer majority AFAB leaning tumblr space? I do think some people have really got to crawl out of Neil Gaiman's ass because he is not your God. He is just a guy.

But I also think a lot of the hate thrown his way is unnecessary. A lot of people's gripes about him seem to be complaints that he is too wrapped up in tumblr culture. Which is an ironic criticism to come from tumblr users. If you hated GOS2 that's totally fine. But if you hated it and then proudly proclaim that "Supernatural did it first" "Supernatural did it better" or just "Supernatural was the best and Good Omens will never be Supernatural". Please, for the love of God, shut the fuck up. Supernatural was heavily influenced BY Good Omens, and the Sandman. Supernatural was so braizen in its stealing ideas from GO and the Sandman that it even stole one of the main characters NAMES.

As a long time SPN fan, any SPN fans ever claiming Neil Gaiman stole ideas from SPN is a fucking embarassment to the rest of the SPN fandom. By all means criticise Gaiman's work to your hearts content, but at least criticise it correctly and leave the hypocrisy at the door.

[sweetcitrusboi]

You’re so real for this and exactly. I can’t believe these same people watched this show with us, and they ignored literally everything like ??? Castiel haters are dense too me, majority of his mistakes were actual mistakes. That he apologized for constantly and his character only ever felt like a tool and never felt like he was appreciated which sucks. Sam’s character is awesome but I don’t know why j*red stans/sam stans act like the attention is being taken away from them. They act like after the writers tried to kill Castiel off way earlier in the series half of the viewer ship literally dropped and they talk so much shit about his character like him and the rest of the background cast aren’t the most loved in the show?? They act like Sam is the one holding up the show like 😭???

And yeah Dean and Sam had terrible codependency that I recently talked about. They made a lot of mistakes for each other that fcked up a lot of things and I still love and appreciate them despite them. Idk I wish ppl would have actually paid more attention to the show instead of unnecessarily hating characters or harassing some of the actors that haven’t done anything. It’s really weird and upsetting. But then again op is a w*ncest and “anti misha” account so they’re most definitely unhinged 😭.

The people I hate more then the wincesties are the people who claim themselves to be Dean Stans and still have the audacity to say that Dean got the ending he WANTED. One can not say that and still be a Dean stan. Absolutely no.

People who think Dean got the ending he wanted do not actually no him in depth. Although there are something Dean did which I do not agree, I still believe him to be selfless hero.

But that is not how Dean saw himself. He hated what he saw when he look in the mirror. He saw himself as a poison. He believed himself to be weapon who was only good at killing. His self-worth was so low that he thought his only worth was keeping him baby brother alive. And because of these thoughts and all his trauma he believed that the only way he deserved to go from this was at early age with guns blazing. He was not convinced that he deserved more then that or he wasn't lucky enough to have more then that.

Because he believed he didn't deserved better than that and that he wasn't blessed enough to have more than that, he just made his piece with it and accepted it as his fate.

But Cas at last made Dean believe that he deserved the world. Cas showed that Dean was more then his father's weapon. That he was the most selfless and beautiful man in the world. That even though he was being controlled by Chuck, Dean's nature was his own and no one had control of that. So at last Dean dared to hope. He dared to hope for something more.

Deep down the Dean who held a gun since he was 6, killed for most of his life and suffered one heartbreak after another heartbreak wanted to retire but the guilt of leaving the world with monsters crippled him. Deep down at the bottom of his heart Dean wanted to to relax, he wanted to stop hunting, he wanted to not kill anymore, he wanted to be happy and peaceful. Dean wanted to be at beach with Sam and Cas, with his toes in sand with matching Hawaiian shirts. THAT IS WHAT DEAN WINCHESTER WANTED.

Funny how people who claim to be Dean stans can't even see the sadness on Jensen's face during the interview. They think they know Dean more then the man who spent 15 playing that character.

[desticuleconfessions]

I must say I'm honestly worried about getting too involved with the desticule only because. I've been on tumblr for like. 10 years? I was super into spn as a teen but stopped watching about 5 years ago. i recently got back into it. Destiel was my first otp and I still ship them now. But I have a beloved mutual who is into w*ncest. I do not ship w*ncest and never will. I figure as long as they aren't hurting me it shouldn't matter. We respect that we each have different interests and don't fight about it because we have other similar interests. And that mutual is important to me. I worry if I get too involved in the desticule ill be blocked for being mutuals with someone that ships something yall are severely against. Im not entirely sure I understand the hate either because fanfic is a place for folks to explore their trauma and fantasies they would never act on irl. Also I know yall can curate your own tumblr experience and block who you wish but that means I don't want to be "found out" and shunned for having mutuals with different interests. Maybe im just old and don't have time for spn politics.

[charlie-minion]

I wanted to believe

I need to write this because if I don’t, I’ll go insane.

For the last 8 years of my life, Supernatural, Destiel, and this fandom have been an important part of my life. There were dark moments when I was drowning and all I kept thinking was: “I need to be alive until I know how Supernatural ends”.

I wanted to believe.

I wanted to believe TPTB actually respected us.

I wanted to believe they respected at least their characters, their story, their legacy.

I was wrong. So many of us were. And I’m truly sorry for that.

I’m more than sorry, though. I’M DEVASTATED! You see? I’m not even angry. I loved this show so much that I can’t be angry. This show gave me so much happiness for many years; it gave me Dean Winchester (the character I could relate to the most, like ever). It gave me Cas (my beloved angel capable of unconditional love). It gave me friends that I treasure and that I’m incredibly grateful for. BUT DAMN! I’M JUST SO DISSAPOINTED.

Everything was fine until the very last minutes of 15x19 when Jack became the new God and Dean didn’t bother to ask him to bring Cas back. Yet, I wanted to believe. We still had one more episode to go and no myth arc left to solve, so all logic said the story made NO SENSE without Cas because we still had the character arcs unsolved.

And then we get whatever the fuck 15x20 was supposed to be.

They flushed down the toilet Dean’s character arc. He never got to live, he never got to enjoy the free will he fought so much for. Even Chuck most likely outlived him. What the actual fuck?

We got a romanticized and uncomfortable brothers scene that I’m sure w*ncest shippers loved. We got a ridiculous wig-wearing Sam Winchester who looked miserable without his brother (for fuck’s sake!! The codependency was strong in this one!). And Dean died in the most meaningless and ridiculous way possible, when he was the character that most deserved to live.

“Good things do happen”, Castiel told Dean many years ago.

“Not in my experience”, Dean said.

So, are you telling me that Dean was right? That good things don’t happen? That to get good things all you need to do is DIE? Geez! Thank you for that, you sons of bitches! FUCK YOU.

“What’s the matter? You don’t think you deserve to be saved?”

Well, apparently the writers themselves didn’t think Dean deserved to be saved in the end. He died young, he never had the chance to live. He got a miserable ending, and for that we have real life, thank you very much.

Dean was the hero. HE DESERVED BETTER. WE DESERVED BETTER. Because sometimes we need to be reminded that after all the pain, the abuse, the suffering, everything will be alright. That you can still recover from all the trauma you’ve experienced and live a full life. That YES, you can find peace in death, but AFTER you get some sort of contentment IN LIFE. Neither Dean nor even Sam got that. For a show that’s supposedly aware of how many people in this fandom deal with depression, this ending is a slap in the face. And I can’t believe I hoped for something better when I know that…

GOOD THINGS DON’T HAPPEN. NOT IN MY EXPERIENCE.

I defended this show when they killed Charlie off in season 10. I almost quit that time. I defended this show every time they screwed up because I believed. As long as there were episodes left, there was still hope, but I was let down.

I defended this show after 15x18 when so many people shouted “bury your gays”. I defended this show after 15x19 and Jack simply said ‘bye bitches’. Now after being spat in the face, there’s no way I can defend this show, no matter the crumbs they spread for us to pick up with great effort.

This used to be a Supernatural blog. From now on, it will be a multifandom blog, and I will post everything and anything that makes me happy. Dean Winchester still makes me happy (mostly if I choose to ignore the last two episodes). Castiel still makes me happy (same applies to him). Destiel fanvids and fanfiction still make me happy. But I will NOT defend this show ever again because they disrespected us; they disrespected Misha, they disrespected Jensen, and they even disrespected Jared with a finale that showed a complete lack of effort and commitment. I’m sorry the boys’ spectacular acting had to be used in such a terrible episode –one that will make a rewatch of this show an impossible task.

Thanks to everyone who’s been following my blog –some of you even for years. And I’m really, really sorry that somehow I contributed to helping build hope in a show which proved us that family does end with blood.

[marlborodean]

here’s my analysis of a 14-yr-old supernatural episode

so remember that episode where sam fucked a werewolf? because he related to her unwilling monstrosity? well that episode is actually just about dean starting to come to grips with his childhood and his sexuality.

if you ship w/ncest do not interact. this post is not anti-sam either btw. 

content warning: discussions of childhood trauma, internalized homophobia, guns, killing. 

does include some images with Image Descriptions following them.

[ID: An over-the-shoulder close-up shot from the episode, focused on Madison, the werewolf, as she cries. Dean is standing behind her. They are both looking at Sam, whose shoulder is on the edge of the frame. End ID.]

Brief episode recap just in case u don’t remember. This ep is 2x17 “Heart.” Sam and Dean are hunting a werewolf. They discover that the woman they interviewed, Madison, is a werewolf (not THEE werewolf, but one of them). Sam develops a lil crush on her <3 I wrote the majority of this after watching it for the first time in almost SIX years, so i was just vibing the whole time UNTIL the last shot changed it all for me. So let me explain!

Three important points that i will refer back to:

1. The episode begins with Dean being excited to hunt a werewolf because "what about a human by day, a freak animal killing machine by moonlight don't you understand? I mean, werewolves are badass. We haven't seen one since we were kids."

2. Then the episode centers on Sam and his relationship with the werewolf woman and his own monstrosity: "[Dean: Sam, she's a monster and you're feeling sorry for her?] Maybe I understand her."

3. BUT THEN the last shot of the episode is of Dean crying as music plays (see below for the specific lyrics) and then Dean jumps at the sound of the gunshot. That's it! That's the end of the episode!

[ID: For all three screencaps, Dean is looking torturously sad. Each one is zoomed a little bit closer to his face than the last. In the last image, Dean sheds a single man tear. The captioned lyrics for the first one say "Relax, child, you were there." The second says "but only didn't realize" and the third says "and you were scared." End ID]

Even though the story is supposed to be about Sam and his monstrosity, and partly about his relationship w/romance since this is the first person he’s slept with since Jess died (at least with what is shown on screen)...the Dean Sandwich tells us otherwise. We're supposed to be taking away something about DEAN here. Like, that's the whole purpose behind the last shot focusing solely on Dean instead of Sam who is AT THAT MOMENT, KILLING THE GIRL HE HAS FEELINGS FOR. It's literally a heartbreaking, devastating, super traumatic thing for Sam to be going through, but instead we're watching Dean as a single tear slides down his face lmao. It's because this episode is about DEAN, and furthering his story.

Let’s not queer this just yet. The death of the werewolf is about/representing his loss of innocence. It's a violent disconnect from his childhood. Point # 1 shows that he is fascinated by werewolves because since he was a kid he thought they were badass, not to mention all the werewolf films he references throughout. Then, through the music lyrics over that last scene, they mirror that theme of childhood. They’ve done this before, having the diegetic music directly reference what the characters are going through. No different here: Dean is the child they’re referring to.

I have to reiterate that that's the last thing we hear before the gunshot cuts the music short and then the cut to black. "You were scared" is the last thing we hear before the gunshot, as Dean cries. ALSO I have to reiterate that Dean was looking forward to killing a werewolf and shooting it himself. So it's super fascinating that, not only is Sam the one that kills the werewolf, WE DON’T EVEN SEE IT HAPPEN.

[ID: A medium-close shot of Dean as he looks at Sam, who takes up the right half of the frame. The caption says, “Sammy, I got this one. I’ll do it.” End ID.]

Am i gonna have to say this now? The werewolf is a metaphor, okay? It's a metaphor for his innocence, which is long-dead, forever doomed. I mean, a lot of kids love werewolves because they ARE badass! It's a classic monster that anyone could easily obsess over, and with Dean's childhood it must've seemed even cooler, knowing they're real and having the power to kill this "mythical" beast. So the way he's looking forward to killing one is the way a child imagines themselves as a hero.

But what happens instead is a tragic mercy killing. It's flipping his fantasy completely on its head, and it makes Dean realize that.....his fantasies are just fantasies. They aren't real, never would be. There's nothing heroic about killing this werewolf. It's tragic as hell. When he offers to kill her himself, it's just to relieve Sam's burden, but he's reluctant still. Because, as he keeps saying, he doesn't want to be a hunter! He doesn't want this life! He's tired of killing! And that's also what he's mourning as he cries and startles at the gunshot. His fantasies will never be real and his childhood could never have been normal and he never got a chance to be a kid because being a hunter was thrust on him at such a young age. And now it feels inescapable.

[ID: A gif of the slow zoom on Dean’s face as the single tears slips down his cheek. He jumps at the gunshot, then blinks and his lip wobbles. End ID.]

So now we can queer it :-) Of course all monster stories can be easily queered, but werewolves are popularly queered. The first example that comes to mind is An American Werewolf in London (1981) isn’t an overtly queer film (though it is Jewish!) but it’s definitely read that way by a lot of people!! Anyway the film was directed by John Landis which JUST SO HAPPENS to be the pseudonym Dean goes by in this episode. hmm. (Also, interestingly, the BTVS ep where the first gay character comes out references this film too)

[ID: Sam and Dean are standing close to each other. Sam is in the foreground, not in focus. Dean, behind him, says, “Landis. And Detective Dante.” End ID.]

There’s this essay about the queer werewolf that you can read here (and they also talk about fandom in it! very fascinating), where they say in the intro: “the werewolf seems an obvious choice as a queer monster with its identity-disrupting hybridity, as well as its atavistic, and, thus, disallowable sexuality.” A lot like Kristeva’s theory of the abject body! which is popular in queer theory. 

This episode is then queering Sam—his attraction to the werewolf makes him abject—but it also queers Dean thru the way his attitude towards the werewolf transforms (get it?) throughout the ep. His desire and eagerness to kill the werewolves is obviously ingrained in him from John’s parenting. Consider what he said in 2x03 “Bloodlust”: “And the way he raised us, to hate those things—and man, I hate them, I do.” In conjunction with the monsters in the show being seen as queer allegories (the gorgon, as an example of an explicit comparison), Dean’s excitement to kill the werewolf can be read as internalized homophobia and repressing any of his own feelings. 

Remember, though, right before that line in “Bloodlust,” he also said, “What if we killed things that didn’t deserve killing?” He’s really beginning to question whether all monsters are bad, and what it means to kill them. Is he also questioning what he believes of queer people? What John believed of queer people? The loss of innocence and queering both slot together through that final shot, imo: he’s crying because he realizes his fantasies aren’t real, but he’s also mourning the fact that he never could have had the chance to grow up without John’s control, and now it’s forever tainted his worldview. What else could he have been without that? (The answer is evident in 4x17 “It’s a Terrible Life.”)

Dean was taught to hate queer people but he doesn't want to. He wants to get out of the life but it feels inescapable. He wants to kill a werewolf and then when he has the chance, he doesn't want to. He actually cries as it's killed. It scares him, having to confront that what he thought he knew was wrong, but he knows all the same that he’ll never have the chance to have grown up without that. 

[casgirl]

okay your post about sam ships the longer i've been on here the more wary i get about s*mruby shippers like i have seen the most baffling takes from them. and i know people got mad about the whole "w*ncest adjacent" thing, but like a LOT of these blogs literally follow tons of w*ncesties and then are like "I don't support it but also i HATE destiel and I HATE cas and I haven't watched past season 5 i don't get it. I think the weirdest take i saw was that destiel was actually bad to ship because they're just another pair of white gays so instead you should ship s*mruby because they're lesbians?? (and this was not a troll) like even if they were lesbians...they are also both white and also like have your headcanons whatever but sam is not canonically a lesbian? like if you ship something it doesn't have to be for "woke" reasons you can just ship it because you like those two characters together why do these people try to make it like their straight ship is actually the REAL queer one which is why shipping destiel is homophobic, actually. m*gstiels do the same thing it's sooo weird.

no you’re SO right. those people made me hate samruby which i used to like bc i love ruby :( but like yeah ABSOLUTELY bizzare the way people are like “this straight ship is actually more queer than destiel” like girl jealousy IS a disease!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kagesdumpsterfire]

Okay, I have to say something and it may be something that some of you won't agree with and that's fine, it still needs to be said.

I'm putting the Jack comment on hold for now. I was distracted at that point and not paying attention and I would like to see/ hear for myself exactly what was said and how it was said. I plan on actually watching the panel later because I am more of a visual person when it comes to panels and stuff anyway. So, I am not defending or condemning Jensen for what was said until I have the proper information for myself.

However,

What happened with the last question at Misha's panel was NOT Jensen's fault. It was more than likely a con employee pushing them out there to get Misha for photo ops. It was a shitty thing that happened, but Jensen is not to blame.

Hellers, we cannot be mad at Jensen for giving us 100% confirmation on Destiel, while at the same time accepting that Misha can't talk candidly about it at a creation con. Misha said the words "I'm not supposed to talk about this." If Misha, who has openly talked about it before, at great lengths, is not allowed to say anything, what makes you think Jensen can? Is it shitty and unfair that we can't bring up ships at cons, even with the show being over? Yeah. It is. Especially with ships being such a large part of the fandom. EVEN SHITTIER when they made it such a big part of one of the character's story lines. I believe Jensen gave us what he was allowed to. If you saw/heard the panel, he was very careful with his words, so not to step on anyone's toes. You know what, fuck it. This needs subsections.

I'm pissed too. I want to be able to talk about Dean and Cas too. Fact of the matter is though, those questions got banned at cons and it looks like they will remain that way.

Creation probably sees it this way: "If we open up questions for one ship we have to open them for all of them." Which you know damn well of we got to ask our questions about the confession, the other's would throw a fit. Do you want (more and not thinly veiled) w*ncest questions at cons? I don't. No matter which way they flip it, they lose. They open up avenues for one side and alienate the other side and that loses them money, so they figure it's best to just keep everything the way it has always been. They don't care that it pisses anyone off or hurts anyone because CREATION does not care about you. They care about your money. I'm not defending it. I also think it is bullshit and aggravating, but that's how business works.

Jensen still works for the WB. Jensen is trying to get his spin-off off the ground. The man still has to toe the line.

He obviously believes Dean still cares deeply for Cas. He said big embrace. This is after Cas made his confession. I choose to take solace in that. You don't have to. I love the idea that even after all that happend, Dean would still be happy to see his best friend ( which btw, my spouse is my best friend so ya can't get mad at the wording) on the otherside of that door. He could've said "ew, no gross." and been homophobic about it. But he didn't. Because ( whether people want to accept it or not) Dean cared very deeply for Cas. What he said proves that NOTHING can change that.

In conclusion, again, Jensen is not to blame.

Now, like I said, I am not defending or condemning him for what he said about Jack, as I wasn't paying attention for it. What I AM defending him for is things that are not his fault. He is human. He is allowed mistakes. These are not his mistakes. Okay? There's no need to crucify the man over things out of his control.

Also, if ya come at me hateful, you'll be ignored. I ain't about it. Thanks.

[scaryorganmusic]

sorry this is really petty but like. this drama is so funny bc ultimately ppl are being accused of liking w*ncest just for like. being mildly dean critical. babes you know you can just block people for disagreeing with you. it doesn’t have to be that deep. in fact it’s literally the only way to survive fandom with more than a quarter of your brain cells left. anyway I’m a dean stan bc I imprinted on him as a child but when I see posts about how he sucks I either agree, disagree and ignore it (and sometimes just unfollow bc I’m curating the most fun online experience for myself as I should), or just say “that makes a lot of sense but it makes me sad so I’m just writing it out of my personal secret good spn”. It’s not that hard.

also like. fellas is not wanting to talk about incest on the blog you run for fun the same as supporting incest /s

also also. the cycle of destiel shippers being annoying and condescending to non destiel shippers -> non destiel shippers understandably deciding they dislike destiel shippers -> destiel shippers being offended for being called annoying is SO funny. tony you CHOSE to do that- like I ship destiel and even I think you’re annoying lmao

Okay I don't plan on talking about this too much anymore but I'll take this as an opportunity to address some things

It is wild how lightly people are treating very awful accusations here. I understand being suspiscious before following someone, because I have accidentally followed people who put that content on my dash (untagged too! because i do have it blacklisted) and it felt so gross. But people are just taking anything they don't like as "sus behavior"

Here are things I've seen people honestly mention that makes you suspicious: obviously being mainly a Sam blog, being "dean critical", being too intense about liking seasons 1-3, shipping sastiel (????), posting mainly about the brothers and not about Cas, criticizing an actor, being reblogged by one of them (even though we also hate when that happens! but it's not something we can control because i don't know every single one of them in order to block) and of course being associated with someone else that's sus.

And here's where I completely agree with what you said: people could just block others for all those things without throwing accusations around! You can just say "most of Sam blogs, or all Sam blogs who don't post destiel, are annoying as hell and i'll block them all" and that's fine! Or, better yet, don't say anything, you don't need to publically announce when you block someone.

Also yeah, a lot of people don't add banners on every post or post nonstop about how gross the wincest shit is because we prefer to avoid it and not be constantly thinking about it. I have the tag blacklisted but I don't do a deep investigation of OP of every post that makes into my dash, and that's kind of a wild expectation.

Quick note on the "dean critical" thing, I've never seen a fandom so weird about people critizing a character. The whole reason people started using the tag was exactly so we could still hang out with people like you, who love him and maybe don't wish to see negative analysis on him, so you could have a tag to blacklist instead of unfollowing! And although it's the bare minimum, I respect the honest attitude of "I know this happened in the show, but personally it's not an aspect I want to read/write meta about" instead of straight up denying stuff.

It is a wild cycle, with so many people (including myself) rejoining the fandom recently it's like you could see us going from "this is fun! i'm gonna follow a bunch of spn blogs" to "this is mildly annoying" to "i hate all of you, blocking spree". Not to be a hypocrite, I was onboard with destiel for most of my time in the fandom, I think I fell out of love with the ship partially because of my rewatch (and it shouldn't be that weird that rewatching something as an adult your perception on it changes!) and partially because of the fandom being so very Like That about it. And the whole fandom experience once you leave that ship is just very different. The bitterfication of the sam girl or whatever.

I do still have destiel mutuals who I appreciate very much, I don't even blacklist the tag because y'all have some amazing artists and I'm always up for fanart, even of things I don't ship (of course with the exception of gross ships).

Anyways yeah it is so infortunate that all of this happened but we move on, idk if anyone took the time to read all of this because it turned more into me venting than anything else but I also appreciate the support i’ve been getting from some of y’all

[fucktheroyals]

*sigh* Hey Supernatural fandom, raise ur hand if you know exactly how stupid a large majority of the Misha hate is?

Everyone who isn't a bi-bro or a bronl*es:

@lilulo-12 disclaimer: I've only been here for 7 years and I am SURE there are people who know of a hell of a lot more than me on this, like the details. Which is why I wanted to do this on a post people could respond to if u or others want more info or people want to add things.

So basically this is really how a majority of the inner fandom hate starts: Bronl*es (and sometimes b*bros, I was looking up the term and found out they are a little different then bronl*es and most of us doesn't seem to care whether the term is used correctly or not). (b-r-o-n-l-i-e-s or b-i-b-r-o-s)

So, idk if you know what bronl*es (bros‐only) or b*bros are but these people are all about and only interested in the relationship between Dean & Sam (This is like the full definition for B*bros. Bronl*es are like B*bros extended edition, so they most likely ship w*ncest). If any character gets at all in the way of that relationship they HATE that character (as a group).

Before s4 when Misha came along, this meant many female characters would be seen as getting in the way of this relationship and B*bros and Bronl*es would start hate campaigns and get those women kicked off the show. (See Bela, Jo, Ellen)

So when Misha came along with Castiel and Castiel started to be seen as a potential threat to relationship and screentime of Sam and Dean they got pissed off and thats what started the raging hate. They really only hate on him so much because they want him off the show.

Now to be specific about the bronl*es. These people are the ones who HATE Castiel with a burning passion of a thousand suns. Yeah same reason.

Bronl*es are the ones who ship the actors, Jared and Jensen (yeah there's no "they might not be" for this one). If you're a person and you get and in the way of their relationship the bronl*es HATE that person.

Anyway it's safe to say that Misha gets in the way of their relationship. Like they're all friends and Misha's friends with Jensen and Misha's also friends with Jared and because Jared and Jensen like Misha the bronl*es get mad because to them Jared and Jensen are only supposed to like each other. The bronl*es DO hate Jared and Jensen's wives for the same reason. To them the wives are "beards" for them so J and J are in a relationship. 🙄

So because Misha's on the show and good friends with them outside of work he basically gets double the amount of hate.

A lot of other hate comes from Bronl*es taking things out of their contexts to make it bad or worse and what I like to call their "misinformation campaigns" where they just spread a whole bunch of lies, often using those things taken out of context they find.

Also, I dont know if you've seen the start of this show but it gives very southern christian homophobic vibes. Like, it attracts that type at least. And because most of these bronl*es AND b*bros are like that, a lot them see Misha's easiness at which he talks about sex or his... I wouldn't say femininity as much as lack of toxic masculinity... or the way he supports the lgbt... or has heavy liberal leaning policies... or his just general "weirdness" and they hate him for it. Yeah, a lot of the b*bros and bronl*es are homophobic.

Anyway none of that's to say I think Misha is perfect, I think he makes a lot of mistakes, some bigger than others, but what's important is he tries his best to fix things when those mistakes happen.

Yo, if anyone has more information about why Misha gets so much hate go ahead and add or correct me.

[chocolatecakecas]

I mean yeah they are in heaven but its said that everyone else Is there too and Bobby is actually shown. Don't get me wrong i think the finale still sucked and it should have had all the extended family but talking with people that are general audience i think maybe the w*stie or completely bronly angle is a bit of a reach. (Even if the other characters deserved to be there)

hi anon i wasnt gonna answer this bc ive had my fill of talking about the finale recently asfhajdh but id like to clarify something. Like i said in my previous answer the finale catered to the general audience, and the br*nlies and the w*ncesties. All three of them, at once. Like you said, it enough for a GA audience to watch it and say "look at this nice story about brothers", BUT it was enough for the br*nlies to get a win and it was enough for the w*ncesties to get a win. And it was done that way on purpose, and im not tin hatting here becauss its literally a fact, because its what they have always done. It's literally the same as any other bait/pandering whatever you wanna call it, they've pulled over the years its literally how the show works. Like for example 10x14 Cas asking Dean to "stop", that was a huge win for us, but maybe a general audience member didn't pick up on it. Or in 5x09 having the two guys cosplaying as Sam and Dean being a couple in real life, that's enough for a general audience member to go haha its 2009 thats a silly joke, but for the w*ncesties, that's a win. Pretty much any destiel moment that makes us lose our kinds, to a general audience member who doesn't know, they mean almost nothing. It's all about interpretation, and they KNOW that, they aren't stupid. There are writers/creators who have supported destiel and there are writers/creators who have supported w*ncest. There are writers/creators who have supported the br*nlies. They aren't stupid, they know about the fandom factions, and they constantly play into that (like they literally play into it on the show itself and mention it by name), so this isn't any different.

Also again, Bobby being in heaven and mentioning others were there, doesn't really have anything to do with this, because they only showed Sam and Dean alone on that bridge, and that's what they care about. It doesn't matter if they were there because they didnt physically show sam and bobby, they didnt show anyone else, and that's what's important to them. If you saw any br*nly or w*ncestie reaction to the finale, that's they interpreted it as a win for whatever they wantes. And they knew that they would, so yes they did cater to them. But to the general audience it looks like, "thats nice the brother met again in heaven". It's a win for all three of those audiences, and it was done that way on purpose.

[orionsangel86]

I have been shipping Destiel since lj days and I can very much tell you Jensen is not part of a long con. Jensen was very uncomfortable with fandom in general way back then, Misha was actually instrumental in bringing him around. Quite honestly, I never thought I would see the day that he was this into fandom and it's kind of awesome. Someone else might be able to prove me wrong but this is what I remember.

I mean I think the jackles long con thing is just a joke and not one I am a part of, but I think the thing with Jensen is this:

He was first introduced to shipping culture at age 26, fresh faced and still kinda early on in his career, via having incestuous pornography of him and his onscreen brother shoved in his face and down his throat.

I may not have been around at the time, but i’ve seen enough stuff to know that was what happened. Jensen did not have a good introduction to fandom.

It made him extremely uncomfortable, and he reacted badly to it (then again wouldn’t you if you had incest porn shoved in your face?)

When Destiel then came about, it was also still mostly seen as being about sex. Jensen always associated Destiel the same way he associated w*ncest - as being gay porn about his character.

It has indeed taken him years to come around to it. Misha was indeed instrumental in that as well I have no doubt. Whilst I don’t think Jensen has been “shipping” Destiel since the beginning, I think he realised over time that it was a love story, that there was a huge difference between the people that fetishized his character and only saw Dean’s relationships with either his brother or Cas as sexual, to those of us (the majority of us) who just wanted to talk about the love story we saw blossoming in front of us on screen.

After all, we know for a fact that they were aware of the intensity of Dean and Cas’s relationship back in season 5 when Jensen jokingly called Cas “the gay angel”. We know he is aware of how the relationship between Dean and Cas comes across even when totally not in a fandom environment such as conventions. Otherwise we wouldn’t have the kind of jokes we do in the blooper reels.

I think he has been aware for the majority of Misha’s time on the show, that there has been a potential for Dean and Cas to be something more, but because he always associated the fandom excitement about it with the more pornographic fetish side of things, he buried those thoughts and clearly displayed discomfort when having it raised in fandom settings.

We know that Jensen initially had issues with the finale. We know he had to talk to the writers about it, and talk to Kripke about it in particular. So we know that even if he was aware of the potential of Dean and Cas’s relationship all along, the idea of it being made textual did give him pause, and that is TOTALLY understandable if you generally associate the relationship with fetish, porn, and objectification.

It is amazing that we are where we are now, with Jensen quite clearly fully embracing this story (and I know we don’t yet know how the finale will go don’t @ me on that - to me, it’s a given), but I do think that like with Misha, he gradually came to accept Dean’s love for Cas over the years and saw that organic love story as a separate beast entirely to the fandom “shipping” experience of “Destiel”. He might not have been on board with “Destiel” from the start, but as for the DeanCas love story? He has always been on board with that, even if he initially didn’t know it.

[caswlw]

People just don’t know how to not vibe with a character. Like if you don’t care for a charcter that’s fine, but, for people like that, they need a reason not to like them so they pull up all this bullshit reasoning and are “DeAn CrItIcAl” when in reality they’re just trying to validate themselves. Like it’s genuinely Not That Deep™️ you don’t have to drag a character and anyone who likes that charcter through the mud just because you don’t care for them. You’re allowed to not like things just because they don’t vibe. But then again it’s the same people who think shipping w*ncest and sending death threats to people is okay so they obviously don’t have good reasoning

seriously tho like. there’s numerous characters on spn i genuinely don’t give a shit about or even Actively dislike that so many people here love and i don’t go out of my way to make posts about why i don’t like the character i just stay in my own lane.

[charcubed]

I agree with your opinion on ?no thing and wanted to ask what do you think of jackles saying his number 1 reservation about 10.05 was destiel mention. People also use that as a proof that he is/was homophobic, which I tbh can't agree with, bc there's like a million reasons someone can dislike a ship involving their character and it's not fair to immediately make the worst conclusions possible? Idk, can you share your opinion on that?

Part 2:  Forgot to add: and even saying that those reservations mean he dislikes the ship is already an assumption anyway - 10.05 anon

Hi anon! 

First thing I’m going to say is that I think it’s frankly bonkers for anyone, in any fandom, to call someone homophobic for not loudly supporting or maybe not understanding a gay ship. Of course this is a blanket statement and in some ways it can still depend on the situation, because could someone be outright homophobic about a queer ship? Sure. But that’s not always (and tbh, probably rarely) the case in situations like this. As you said, there are a million reasons someone can dislike a ship or simply not understand fandom culture with that kind of stuff; if one is unfamiliar with it, it does take a certain level of PR coaching to understand it more fully. I’ll go back to that though.

I looked around for ages, and for the life of me I can’t find a source on Jensen saying that the Destiel mention was his number one reservation. If that was something he said, can you (or anyone reading this lol) point me to a source?

All I know of–and found in my search again–is this video / article, where he talked about his initial reaction to the episode.

"I didn't have a positive reaction," Jensen Ackles told E! News. "The first time in I think 200 scripts I went and sat down in the showrunners office and said, ‘What in god's name are you doing?! Why? I need to understand why this is happening.'"

It took some convincing from executive producer Jeremy Carver for Ackles to finally come around to the idea.

"He gave very eloquent answers and did a great job of explaining why we were doing what we were doing," Ackles said. "I guess I had been aware of this 'fan fiction' for a while and I felt like maybe if I ignored it, it would eventually go away. When I read it in the script that is what I do for a living and is my work—I'm very protective of these characters and the story and I think we have a right to be—I wasn't angry. I just wanted to understand why and what was the message we were ultimately sending with this script and story. By the end of it, I felt good and it gave me all the confidence I needed. It was better than I could have ever hoped."

He continued, "I never should have even sat down in that office, so Jeremy, I'm sorry."

So from the perspective of this quote (if that is indeed the quote in question):

No part of this is anti-Destiel lol. I think it’s very clear what he meant by having concerns about this episode. I’d even go as far as to say that if he has said something about worrying about the Destiel name drop (if there’s a source on that I don’t know about), then it was still in this context: he wanted to know what message they were sending with this story. 

I think it’s also key to remember that he’d been aware of fanfic and ignoring it. Why? Because he was also primarily aware of w*ncest fic and J2 tinhatters and the like. There’s a sordid history there, and it’s not unrealistic to say that it caused problems. That was Jensen’s first and primary encounter with fanfic and shipping as concepts, and it makes sense that his method was trying to ignore it and not focus on it. 

Then, the flip side: maybe he didn’t want the fans to feel ridiculed either. What kind of message were they sending with this episode? aka is this going to be a nod to fans, or be seen as making fun of them or even getting their hopes up about a ship?

Then clearly things were explained to him, and he understood, and felt good about it. That counts for a lot. After that conversation, he clearly liked 10x05 and often said as much in other interviews too.

Overall, look, ultimately... I don’t know Jensen as a person, obviously. I wouldn’t ever claim to. But I think he seems to be the kind of person who just doesn’t like being back into a corner, especially very publicly such as at conventions. I think he–like all other actors–know they don’t write the stories and can’t promise things on behalf of the writers’ rooms. This applies to any instances people dredge up across the board.

I think he also–especially in the early days–didn’t understand what fandom wanted from him when they asked him leading questions about Destiel... because even at the best of times sometimes fandom doesn’t know what they want, and because without being coached in the best kind of responses no one would know how to answer perfectly especially back then. A mere 5, 6, 7 years ago, social media was still growing, talk of queer rep was still actively evolving and becoming louder, and fans were becoming emboldened (not necessarily in a bad way) to demand more of stories–but that didn’t mean everyone (especially actors) were engaged or educated on what that all meant for the ways they had to respond including on the spot.

SPN season 10 aired in 2014. Same sex marriage wasn’t legalized country-wide in the US until 2015. Lexa died in The 100 in 2016, and I mention this to put in perspective where queer rep conversations were at the time, using a marker many people know about. 

Is it so surprising that an actor in a show from the early 2000s–with the baggage of w*ncest shipping debacles, network pressures, inability to speak for writers, and already many years’ worth of playing a character who felt personal to him–wouldn’t have known that fandom wanted to hear the exact phrasing of “I’m not sure Destiel is where the story is going but all interpretations are valid and if you think Dean is bi then of course he is” anytime he was asked a question practically designed to trip him up?

It’s not homophobia to have a cocktail of concerns surrounding a topic like that, in context like that, and especially in very public spaces like conventions. (Homophobia is shit like “not everything is about the gays, okay gay people?” Lol.) There are many reasons an actor could dislike a ship, but even more so, there are many reasons an actor may not understand fandom culture or not know how to perfectly address a ship / queer question because they didn’t know what the fans wanted to hear.

Basically, in summary: I agree with you and I’ve never personally seen anything from the backlog of history that Jensen’s said that struck me as either homophobic (a big word people should stop slinging around!!) or deliberately anti-Destiel with malice.