#and more lillith plot

[anonymouscheeses]

Hazbin hotel theory (not circus related 🙄)

So we all know Charlie and Vaggie resemble alot of Lucifer and Lillith right?

Lucifer is a fallen angel and Vaggie is a fallen angel. Both sacrificing so much for their lovers. Both having different ideals and beliefs aside from the majority of heaven, because of that they both end up in hell. Also literal head over heels for their wives. Lucifer still wears his ring and Vaggie has very few scenes outside of Charlie.

Charlie and Lillith are both demons, although I guess Lillith is more human I think. But, they both fit in the other category. They both have fallen angel lovers. It's said in the opening cutscene that Lillith was an activist who sang as a way to influence. Charlie is an activist who sings in "ready for this" to persuade the cannibals to join her fight against heaven.

Personality and design wise though, Charlie and Lucifer are the most similar. Lillith and Vaggie? From what we've seen Lillith seemed loving in her pictures but calm and serious at the majority, if that doesn't describe Vaggie I don't know what does. Also Lillith wears purple and Vaggie is at this point purple coded 💀

It's implied that Lucifer had romantic or at the least smeggsual 🤭 relations to Eve. Sure it could have been a joke/lie, but clearly Adam gets pissed and doesn't say that he's wrong. I'd like to think Lillith and Eve also had romantic ties but there's not enough shown of them to make even an evidential guess. It's obvious tho that Lucifer at least was with the both of them at some point. (Maybe even Eve gave birth to Charlie since Lillith was cursed with miscarriages. At least if Viv still wants to keep that. No. No... Lucifer did NOT give birth to Charlie... youre jst weird... /j)

So... if Lucifer, Lillith, and Eve were once all in a polycule or at least a vee(two date one)....

who would be the one that stands in as Eve since Charlie and Vaggie are Lillith and Lucifer?

Plot twist. I'm a two and half halo shipper. It's Emily yall... 😨

HEAR MEE OUTTT!!!

In this image below, Vaggie is jealous that Charlie is holding Emily's hands(YES. CHARLIE IS HOLDING HER HANDS, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Charlie is very touchy sshh) which is kind of weird they would include that tiny scene. Sure, it could just be comedic but what's comedy except a person who looks too much into a small 1 millisecond scene. It still puts in a dynamic that at first isn't implied to be romantic but! But, having this one scene still creates a slightly romantic undertone dynamic. Even if it's not heavily implied, Vaggie sees Emily as someone who's taking moves on her girlfriend. (Which could also imply Lillith and Eve's first impression before they got in a polycule.)

What I'm about to say is pure speculation, there still isn't much to go off of in the show at the moment with these six. But I think I have some points that maayyy just be smart for an idiot like me :3. Emily is an angel yes, but we aren't sure what Eve's fate was, where she went or what happened to her after. Maybe she stayed with Adam(after the creation of sin), and if Adam could go to heaven, a man who also ate the apple, then I believe Eve could too, it doesn't matter who started(assuming Adam did eat the apple in the show. Most likely.) What I like to speculate is that Eve went to heaven with Adam, although she didn't feel happy in their marriage and decided to make herself a fallen angel to be with Lucifer and Lillith, her true lovers.

Now the similarities with Eve and Emily? They both are against the ideas of those higher than them in heaven. Emily is against the idea of extermination in hell because she feels its unnecessary genocide. Eve went against heavens orders and ate the apple from Lucifer for knowledge. Oh also look haha their hair is kinda similar in the images below(not actual evidence but still its kinda cool) That's where the current canon similarities end. But ofc the big well known theory is that Emily will become a fallen angel because she goes against Sera's wishes. I HOPE she doesn't but in this show? Yeah, most likely. Currently Emily hasn't taken action, but maybe one day she will, which is the most likely situation. And if I'm right that Eve was a fallen angel then that would also be ANOTHER similarity. (Also. Ya'll.... the woman who picked up baby Charlie in "more than anything" was NOT Lillith. Like okay, maybe she is, but that didn't look like her AT ALL. She didn't have the same slick back mullet. But, in the image below, Eve and the woman who picked up baby Charlie have the exact same hair. Jst another thing I wanted to throw in to further evident that Lucifer Lillith and Eve were in a polycule/vee)

I LOVE TWO AND A HALF HALOS SO MUCH GUYSS. PLEASE FEED INTO MY NAIVETY. LUCIFER'S STOLEN WIVES AND CHARLIE'S ANGELS ARE LITERALLY CANON AND NO ONE CAN SAY OTHERWISE TO ME 😭😭

BONUS!! Adam is Lillith's ex rightt??? Well Lute is basically Vaggie's ex. Sure, you could argue that- no. No girl, they was exes, I know, Viv told me herself smhhh..... not only are both Lucifer and Vaggie fallen angels because they had different ideals from heaven, Lillith and Charlie are both activists who use their voice as powers, Eve and Emily go against heaven, BUT LILLITH AND VAGGIE BOTH HAVE EXES??

Bro, Adam and Lute are also besties like? The polycules kicked them out and then they were like, "nuh uh, now we're gonna date eachother since yall don't want us" 😭

Basically what I'm saying is that Lucifer's stolen wives and Charlie's angels are Canon and no one can say otherwise because I'm so smart. If anyone says they aren't just link them to here and BOOM we got another one added to the small ship. Also. This is so underrated. Ya'll.. the potential is so crazy. And since Charlie and Vaggie are already established it would be so intense and adorable to watch Emily try to impress and date them both. Uggghh so.... hyperfixated..... I hope this isn't my special interest now 😭

[thekidthesuperkid]

No but actually I love how central Crystal is to the story. She's the only reason the group ever goes to Port Townsend and therefore the only reason most of the plot even happens.

Even if you're just watching the show with shipping goggles (a lot of people let's be honest) you still can't extract Crystal from the story. She's the only reason Charles and Edwin go to Port Townsend, but also her arrival into the boys' dynamic shakes it up enough for it to start changing. She's the one who finds out about Charles' dad and then pushes Edwin to figure out what Charles has been hiding from him. She's also the one who pushes Charles to recognize his own repressed emotions and to deal with them. She's central to Charles' character arc over the show, and even though she's not as central to Edwin's character arc, she's still a catalyst. Niko, the Cat King, and Monty are more directly important to Edwin's arc, but Edwin and Charles never would have met and helped Niko if it hadn't been for Crystal (Niko likely would have just died from the sprites alone and this is deeply sad to think about), and Edwin also would never have met either the Cat King or Monty without being in Port Townsend. (Monty probably would have never become human.) Maybe if things had been different Edwin still would have been dragged back to Hell, but Charles would have had to find a different way to rescue him. The Night Nurse was only there to open the door to Hell because Charles and Edwin were stuck in Port Townsend long enough for her to track them down, and on top of that she was only able to track them down because of their connections to living humans (Jenny) through Crystal. And then Edwin's confession on the staircase was only really possible because of the realizations about himself that he had beforehand because of the influences of Monty and Niko and the Cat King. Crystal called Edwin and Charles a dead married couple on acid and that basically what they were: they had been together for so long with just each other, and they were so familiar with each other that their dynamic had become habit and they were taking for granted the things they thought they knew about each other...Charles is the happy one and isn't haunted by his past the way that Edwin is, Edwin isn't interested in romance and connecting with living people, etc. Crystal, and then Niko and their other friends as well, showed up and brought in a new perspective on their relationship and their lives and their problems, which allowed them to develop their relationship in new areas.

Independently of the boys' relationship though, Crystal's story is really done so satisfyingly. Her character arc of figuring out who she is is unfinished, but already it's cool how the story builds the contrast of who she is now versus who she was before her memories were stolen, where one of the biggest differences between the two versions of herself is whether she has people in her corner who truly care about her and support her, and whether she has people she cares about in return. She's also the only one able to defeat Esther in the end. The Elemental would have just swallowed Charles and Edwin without her, and summoning Lillith was something only she could do. And it's really cool how her role in the story creates a theme of connection to other people being vital. She forces Edwin and Charles (mainly Edwin) to interact more with living people, through getting them to take cases for living people and by being a way to get information from the living more easily, which ends up causing some bad things for them but also causes a lot of good things too. Like she brings in Niko, who is the reason Charles and Edwin don't get separated after returning from Hell. And even her powers rely on being able to connect with her roots and her heritage and her self. The way that ties into themes of identity are very interesting as well.

TLDR: I really like way the story used Crystal and I'm excited to see where her story goes if there's a season 2.

[chubs-deuce]

Curious about something, do you think that Charlie may have also been made by Lucifer and Lillith with the same spell that created Dawn??

Lillith is the original sinner after all and in certain lore she’s responsible for the miscarriages of women so there’s a link between her and infertility built in- so in that light there’s an extra bit of reasoning as to why that ritual exists in an old grimoire of Lucifer’s!

Hehehehe I am so happy you bring that up!!

I didn't know the Lilith lore until now, but am glad it coincidentally falls right into place with the idea I had of this haha

Because that is precisely what I decided to lean into with the plot setup 👀 I generally like to believe Lucifer was always fascinated with the concept of creation. The pizzazz, the sparkle and shine of something new and never seen before and the pride of knowing he made it.

The ritual that made Dawn was one of his last experiments - it aimed to replicate the creation of man, something the elder angels disapproved greatly of and considered too dangerous because it would meddle with souls and artificially mix pieces of them together into a new being - though he's never managed to actually test out the finished ritual in practice since he fell from grace not long after.

He largely forgot about the ritual (the creations that inspired it now just making him feel sour to think about) until Lilith brings up wanting to raise an heir after her attempted revolution failed. They can't procreate the regular way (Angels as heavenly and immortal creations were never meant to and while this wasn't a planned additional aspect it does make sense that Lilith would be cursed with infertility as well after their fall), so Lucifer instead reworked that old ritual idea from memory and properly perfected it, eventually resulting in Charlie!

It's technically a seperate spell that is far more stable, so once Lucifer finds out about what exact ritual she performed he's a little bit horrified because that version of the ritual was VERY experimental and could've backfired dangerously, but he would simultaneously also feel very satisfied and smug about the fact that it worked perfectly anyways.

[morningstarwrites]

Hi ☺️

First off let me say I decided to finally read your OSAS story after Loving so many of the fan art and all I can say is.

THIS IS THE BEST RADIOAPPLE STORY IVE EVER READ. ITS SO CLOSE TO CANON. 🥰🥰🥰. WHY DID I TAKE SO LONG TO READ YOUR MASTERPIECE 😭😭 THE WAY I FANGIRL SCREAM WHEN THEY FINALLY KISSED 🥰🥰🥰

anyway I got three questions about the story

1- Does Lillith or Roo still own Alastor soul. How would that play out in the story.

2- Understanding they are switches but who would be more likely to wear a dress ( probably in a dare 😂)

3- Will we find out the history of Alastor and Vox. It seemed to me Alastor sees him as an annoying sibling 😂.

Anyway sorry for taking so long to read your wonderful story keep up the good work 👏👍

Thank you for reading! Omg let me respond to your questions:

No because I have no idea what canon plans to do with that, and I don't want to make THAT up, since it'll be a significant plot point later on

I'd like to think they are comfortable with themselves to both wear dresses! Like if it comes up, they'd just be like "sure, no big deal"

Again, I dunno what canon plans to do with the Vox and Alastor backstory, so I won't - I kind of make them have a strained frenemies thing here, where Alastor finds him super irritating LOL

[fandomworld9728]

His divorce with Lilith becomes public and now everyone wants a piece of him. He is overwhelmed, just got out of his depression, and is trying to spend time with his beloved daughter. Said daughter is peeved and never had to share her dad's attention and so acts as the #1 defense and official cockblock/clamdam. Vaggie is there to help support her gf and also talk her out of some of her more elaborate plots.

(Requested by @suzaojou)

(I had way too much for with this, so I decided I want to make it into a much longer piece on AO3! Here's some samples of ideas for it ^-^)

Finally ready to move on from Lilith, Lucifer finalized the divorce and stripped her of her power and title. Not being a fan of most people in media and not trusting them to stick to the truth of the situation, Lucifer went to Alastor to announce it.

Things had spiraled from there. With the King of Hell back on the market, everyone was after the new position of queen.

I do mean everyone! Sinners, Hell-born demons, Overlords, even the residents of the hotel. That has to be the hardest for Lucifer to deal with. Especially with a now sinner Adam and a territorial deer demon.

What makes it all the more interesting and stressful to a whole new level is when Charlie and Vaggie start playing bodyguard for him.

Lucifer was both amused and appreciative of it. He was the King of Hell, sure, but he had also isolated himself for so long that he wasn't sure how to handle all this new attention. Though, on the bright side, his confidence shot up.

All Lucifer wanted was to finally spend time bonding with his daughter and her girlfriend, getting to know them better. All Charlie wanted to do was to have her father's attention after so long and wasn't planning on sharing him anytime soon. And Vaggie... she of course was there to support her girlfriend. However, she also was more than happy to have an excuse to jab Alastor with her spear when he got a little too close.

Meanwhile, Lucifer now has a new fan club that tries to one up each and outdo each other. Eventually being joined by Lillith when she sneaks her way back into Hell and wants her now ex-husbands affections back.

[shallowseeker]

Howdy Howdy! Wishing you a fast recovery! Here's something to ponder while you're stuck inside: Are there any villains in spn you wish would have been redeemed? How about any characters you wish would have had a corruption arc? What would you want their redemption/corruption arcs to look like?

Hands-down, I wanna see Bela Talbot. I'd trade an embarrassing number of "golden era" regulars to see her come back and get the "demon Dean" treatment (i.e. having moral grayness around the "work/cases" Hell assigns to her).

Like other demon characters, having her work through her own corruption/toxicity/bitterness/despair would be great. The consequences of her survivorship would be Chef's Kiss for me.

//

Secondly, I wanted to see Andrea Kormos in an extended Purgatory Round II (15x09). She'd make a great mirrored Plot Device for the New Quest (finding the flower/escaping/fighting Lillith etc).

Like Bela, Andrea would work for me personally because she also has to work through her Stockholm Syndrome and corruption. Like Bela, she'd be dealing with the consequences of her survivorship. (I’m sensing I like a theme here…)

For narrative symmetry, of course, she clings to Cas. (I think Cas can be Very Appealing to "ruined/corrupted" characters, especially when he decides to extend his gentle version of non-judgment, so it could really, really work and create Big Emotional Complications). Theme: it's never too late/you can start being good any time.

//

That aside, I think the main three all need to finish their arcs as parents. Especially Sam. For me personally, his final turn was like lukewarm dishwater.

///

As for moral decay/corruption, I'd like to see characters like Eileen Leahy and Charlie Bradbury do a lot more fucking up. (I know Charlie split in the Oz thing and Eileen shot a MoL dude, but I found their mistakes to be generally very "safe.") Same for Lata from The Winchesters.

I'd kill for them to get the Mary Winchester treatment--that is, to be allowed to fuck up as much as The Boys Do.

For Eileen, it'd look like this, I think. I haven't got any good ideas for Charlie, because I find her annoying (I say this with Love now). Lata would naturally have to reckon with her pacifism and hypocrisy.

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

This might be a hot take but I've gotta get this off my chest:

I have seen so many times in the past two years the point being made by a particular section of the fandom that Sam was the hero of SPN, the "Luke Skywalker" of the series as Kripke himself stated, and that the finale ending made sense for not only Sam getting to live but also for Dean's ending. And in the very same breath, it's mentioned that the show was always about the brothers, no one else, that's what Kripke always wanted, etc., but this argument is always made from a very pro-Sam slanted/skewed anti-ship (and sometimes anti-Dean) point of view without taking into consideration of just how much the story of SPN evolved even before Kripke left the show.

Like say what you will about Sam being the hero of the story, and I'm not going to disagree with you about that being Kripke's original intention because you're right. Sam was the main protagonist; that's clear from the outset of the series. The whole first season is everything being told from Sam's POV. It's evident in every single episode in how each case has resolution thanks to Sam. He is made to be the hero. The whole arc of season 1 is about Sam being dragged back into this world due to his desire for revenge for what happened to Jessica which turns into something more aka Sam is naturally a hunter and he wants to help people/help his family->Dean. It's even Sam in the season finale that chooses a different way compared to John's quest for revenge by choosing Dean/his family over his revenge.

So, yes, you're right when you say in the beginning of the series that Sam was the hero/main protagonist. Absolutely. But what is not being mentioned/realized is that somewhere along the way, during Kripke's era, Dean's own story within the series became just as integral to the main story like Sam's as did their relationship as brothers. Kripke developed the story to include both. They both become essential to the main overhead arc of the entire show. The whole reason John and Mary even got together (through Heaven's intervention as per SPN canon) was to bring about both Sam and Dean's existence. Dean becomes the complement to Sam's role. We find out that Sam is the chosen vessel for Lucifer, and then we find out Dean is the chosen vessel for Michael, which leads to the showdown between Heaven and Hell essentially through the two. Both have a decision to make; both are tapped on the shoulders by both sides (i.e. Cas/Ruby); both are essential to the main plot while having their own separate arcs/journeys. Dean is no longer a side character or even the "Han Solo". His story is developed and we not only see his own hero's journey that he has to go on (when physically separate from Sam for example; going into the future though this is still intertwined with Sam's journey itself; going back in time, etc.) but his own desires, thought processes, relationships (outside of Sam), are also brought into the forefront for his story. Can this happen with side characters? Sure. But that's not what happens here because Kripke not only develops/beefs up Dean's story but also interweaves it with Sam's very carefully, to the point that the show doesn't work without both characters. Hence, Sam is no longer the sole main protagonist.

Which is why, for example, Dean is the one to kill the YED even though Sam had been determined to make YED pay for what happened to Jessica. And Kripke masterfully balances the main plot between the two as the show develops, so much so that we get payoff for Sam's journey (which leads up to Swan Song but I'll get to that in a moment), by fulfilling big plot points such as his killing Lillith and setting Lucifer free. He even still gets the hero's end by choosing to sacrifice himself to save Dean and the world in 5x22. Kripke beautifully takes Sam's original journey and tweaks it in such a way that while Sam had his dad's training and a similar quest for vengeance, he made a different decision and he did that while having much more on his shoulders (literally the weight of the world) than John ever did. And we still get payoff for what was initially set up way back in season 1. We get a close out to the Jessica story line, to Sam's powers story line, all of it, before Kripke dipped out.

And in the same fashion, we also got a closeout to Dean's story line. If he would ever get out of hunting, would he allow Sam to go into that dark night alone, would he be the same as John -- all of it.

So the ending to 5x22 absolutely makes sense. And we get: Dean surviving and going to live a "normal" life & Sam making the sacrifice (as the hero the series started out with) while also somehow surviving & making his way back to his brother. That's Kripke's ending. Now to be fair, Sam making his way back to Dean more likely had to do with them setting up the next season, but ultimately he wasn't dead after throwing himself and Michael into the pit.

Then in the later seasons, which some fans like to exclude or dismiss (but it's still part of Sam and Dean's official story), their stories were still integral to the main story but they had also evolved to include other characters (such as Cas, Jody, Donna, etc) and they had developed over the next ten years. So when looking at the series as a whole, Dean and Sam's endings in the series finale do not make sense. Kripke already got his ending in 5x22 and the show moved past that, and quickly set out to dismantle it in 6x01. This theme continued and the idea of free will became the center stage even more than it had in the first five seasons. By the time the last season rolled around, Dean and Sam had different desires, their stories had not only been completely intertwined to make both of them the main protagonists but both the heroes, and how their ends/hunting boots were hung up in the end would both matter.

So if you watched all of the seasons, 15x20 doesn't make sense. Because Dean and Sam wanted very different things by that point, they had both built relationships with other characters (Cas and Jack were the biggest ones but those two were not the only ones), and their story had effectively changed.

And if you didn't watch any of the later seasons (or you dismiss it), 15x20 still doesn't make sense because this wasn't the ending Kripke had for the seasons 1-5 Sam and Dean. If anything, it felt like it could have been 1x02 instead of the Wendigo episode, ending Dean and Sam's story in two short episodes with nothing in between.

That does not make sense.

Imagine we were discussing the show Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We all know how that ended (I'm talking TV only, not the comics). Buffy saved the world, she survived (finally!), and she was free from Sunnydale. Now imagine she had been killed off. Not only would it feel redundant but it wouldn't feel like a true ending for the story told over the past 7 seasons. What would have been the point of her being resurrected in season 6 then? What would have been the point of her relationship with Spike, Dawn, and the others? Could Joss Whedon have made it into another hero's sacrifice (instead of Spike doing the heroic/redeeming sacrifice), that she got Dawn, Willow, Xander, and the other Slayers ready to defend the world that she would die saving? Sure. But again, when you compare that ending to her story, it doesn't really make sense. There is no payoff, for the viewers or for the character of Buffy. She had earned that ending, the freedom from the Hellmouth and from the burden of being alone as the only Slayer (aka Chosen One). Which is why we get that great shot in the end:

Willow: "Yeah, the First is scrunched so...what do you think we should do, Buffy?"

Faith: "Yeah, you're not the one and only Chosen anymore. Just got to live like a person. How's that feel?"

Dawn: "Yeah, Buffy, what are we going to do now?"

The hero, who had already made the hero's sacrifice more than once, finally earned the ending that she wanted: freedom and the ability to choose to live her life for herself. The burden of being The Slayer had been removed and spread out to others (effectively building a network, hold that thought for a minute), she was no longer alone, she had defeated the Big Bad (which was effectively the Hellmouth since it kept creating/calling to these other Big Bads she faced over the years as well as the monsters she started out fighting), she might have more to face in the future, but it's up to her now what she wants to do. She is given the choice aka free will and that's what she earned after everything she had gone through during the duration of the show.

That's an ending.

This isn't:

Death wasn't supposed to be their ending. While some might be able to turn to you and say 'but they end up in Heaven together, they're at peace', that doesn't make it a payoff ending, for the viewers (early seasons only or all seasons) or for the characters of Sam and Dean. That's not effective storytelling. Neither ending was heroic or earned.

Dean dying, while again wouldn't make sense given the story, could have been painted as heroic if it happened during the battle with Chuck for example. Their final battle with the ultimate Big Bad. Even though they both died heroically quite a few times before this, it could have been done and while ultimately disappointing, it could have been the hero's end for Dean (just like Sam's end in 5x22 was the hero's end for him). This death wasn't heroic; instead it was from vampire stunt guy #4 who apparently juiced before that scene getting an upper hand on the hero and impaling him on a piece of sharp rebar. During a milk run hunt. Now imagine if that were Sam. Ask these people who think that by the end of the series that Sam was the only hero, ask them if that happened to Sam instead, would they still be praising the finale? Or imagine that was Buffy. That she survived like she does, the Hellmouth in Sunnydale was finally gone, only to be killed by a random forgettable vampire who she had faced off with in the first season and got away, only to suddenly return and take the hero out, thus negating the payoff/earned ending she and the viewers got. Doesn't make sense, right?

Now imagine if say Dawn was killed off in a similar way (though tbf Dawn's role was not the same as Dean's in the story) or during the battle, and we see Buffy living her life through the years, getting out of slaying, having a family which consists of a daughter she names Dawn, wearing her own Party City wig and looking at a picture of Dawn all teary-eyed, dying in her sleep as an old lady, and then reuniting with her in Heaven. It doesn't work. Not only because Dawn had a very different role in the show when it came to the main story but also because it DOESN'T WORK. What kind of hero's end is that? What payoff is that? Is it great that Sam gets to choose to get out of hunting and have a family? Sure. But that's not where his story was headed, in later seasons, or even during Kripke's era.

Going back to the network thing I mentioned with Buffy, Sam had done that. Not only were there strong hints of leader!Sam near the end of the series, but he had effectively built a network of hunters for a time until Alt!Michael killed them all. But he and Dean still had a network going through Jody, Donna, Claire, even Jack until he turned God!Jack. Wayward Sisters might not have taken off when it first aired but the point was made: a hunter network still existed. And these characters, this network, even though not shown in the finale, still survived no matter what happened with Sam and Dean in the end. Why is this important? Because not only does it extend the hunting universe, but it also removes the burden from the heroes' shoulders. So they could have gotten out of hunting if they wanted to, just like Buffy could have laid down her axe (or stake). The heroes had earned it.

So for Dean to die on a random hunt and for those few to say that it was being foreshadowed this whole time with Dean's quotes (from before season 15 btw) and a proper ending to his story...they really don't know what show they were watching or how storytelling works in general. Because when they say that, they negate Dean's whole arc of season 15 (while also negating his whole series arc). Dean was angry in the beginning of the season because he thought not only had his free will been taken from him, but also because he thought he hadn't had any free will this whole time. There's a reason why he says what he says to Cas in 15x02. There's a reason why he was so gung ho on letting Jack sacrifice himself, and only once once Sam and Chuck say what they say in 15x17 does Dean make a different choice: his family (and the world) vs his own desire (his idea of free will, not fully realizing that he's actually utilizing it by making that choice). It's only when he chooses not to kill Chuck in 15x19 that he is completely self-aware and that he is using his free will to make a choice. A choice that affects how the Big Bad is ended/defeated. "That's not who I am."

He was given the hero's choice and he made it. And his decision was the right one that had payoff from not only the events in 15x17 and 15x18 but for his overall story. That's why what Cas says to him in 15x18 about who he is as a character was so important. It set Dean up to not only have self-realization but to also act upon it. Think about how many times over the years Sam and other characters have told Dean this about himself but he never really believed it. Why? Because he hadn't reached that part of his journey yet. Because he hadn't reached the end of it yet. So it makes perfect sense how 15x17, 15x18, and 15x19 play out. This is the appropriate ending battle for not only Dean but Sam as well:

This was the hero's sacrifice they made. They could have been killed from Chuck beating on them as he did. He could have chosen to snap his fingers at any point. They made the sacrifice in order to get Jack the time and energy he needed to power up to overpower Chuck. And they never stayed down no matter the pain, no matter the potential of their deaths at Chuck's hand. They refused to give it up. This is why Sam helps Dean back up and why they're laughing/smiling. Because they know that no matter what happens to them, Jack/the world is going to win. "Why are you smiling?" "Because...you lose." And their sacrifice not only hands victory over to the new generation aka Jack but also instates the new God who replaces Chuck aka The Big Bad of the entire series. EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS SCREAMS HERO.

So it's not only payoff for Jack's story (as well as Chuck's) but also for Sam and Dean's. And both brothers were the heroes. Which is why Sam tells Chuck that he loses and Dean tells him that they won. Why both of them tell Chuck about their plan that they formed together (and Jack doesn't say a word). Which is why Chuck says he's going to die at both of their hands, both Sam and Dean look at each other, and then Dean makes the choice not to kill Chuck. "See, that's not who I am. That's not who we are." Because they both were the heroes and main protagonists of the series. Something that Kripe had set up long before 5x22.

"What kind of an ending is this?" One the heroes had earned. Chuck as the Big Bad wanted violence and death, an ending he would be entertained by. And even for an ending he hadn't imagined for himself (where he loses), he still expected a grisly death at the hands of the heroes. Had either Winchester done that, then Chuck would have gotten what he wanted and it wouldn't be the heroes' end that they had earned.

This was the ending that Sam and Dean earned:

The choice to continue on if they wanted or to get out of hunting for good. To go see Jody, Donna, and the girls, or go get Cas out of The Empty, or go on milk run hunts for a while, or even to go to a freaking baseball game (screw you, John!); the point is it was their choice. That's what they had earned by the end of the series.

The ending that Chuck earned was not only the worst he could imagine but it was punishment for everything he had done. Both brothers say as much:

Sam: "I think it's the ending where you're just like us. And like all the other humans you forgot about."

Dean: "It's the ending where you grow old, you get sick, and you just die."

Sam: "And no one cares. And no one remembers you. You're just forgotten."

This was not the heroes' ending or the ending both characters had earned/deserved:

This was:

For the ones who insist that Dean's sacrifice was the right ending for his story and that he got a new Heaven as a reward are incorrect. Heaven wasn't what Dean wanted, not before he got what he earned.

For the one who insist that Sam's ending was right for his story and that he got to have a family and choose to get out of hunting as a reward are incorrect. Sam wanted Dean to be a part of that life (however it looked) and he had no desire to get out of hunting by the time the series came to an end.

15x20 is not the right ending for either Winchester.

And for those who say that Dean hadn't become one of the heroes in the series or that the finale was right because Sam was the sole main protagonist by the end (or even Kripke's ending in 5x22) clearly weren't paying attention. Not only did Sam not get the heroes' end or the end he wanted and earned, but neither did Dean who had been developed into the other main protagonist of the series, by the series creator himself before he left the show.

Bonus:

15x20 was not their real finale and here's how you know:

Next shot (after cutting to black):

Nothing after it.

SPN:

Next shot (after fading to black):

And then:

(while still in costume, the two leads thanking the fans and then the crew/bridge drone shot complete with show music)

Compare this to how 15x19 ended as well. We get the montage, the drive off shot, and then the scene from 1x01 of Sam shutting the trunk of the Impala as Dean watches. Then cuts to black.

That's their finale.

[crybabydraws]

I'm a fan of Hazbin Hotel, but man does it have writing problems. I watched episode 5 and 6 yesterday and I think that if they did episode 3 differently it could've made episode 5 make more sense. Let me explain.

**Spoilers from here on, so if you haven't seen it and you wanna watch it yourself first then don't continue.**

Ngl guys. Episode 3 was a mess. I won't go into all the details, but I was just disappointed. To sum my thoughts up, I think Vaggie's arc should've been about her learning to trust people, they shouldn't have revealed who killed the angel; Camilla being the angel killer is kind of boring imo; and I don't care about the emotional ballad because I have no reason to care about Camilla or Vaggie's low point because it comes out of nowhere.

Now we're gonna talk about Charlie and Alastor in episode 5 because honestly what is going on??? Alastor hates Lucifer the second he walks in the door and immediately starts trying to act like he and Charlie have like a father/daughter dynamic and he's suddenly really protective of her even though this dynamic/type of relationship between the two has never been established before??? And I don't think he's just doing it to piss of Lucifer either. Like he's way protective over Charlie all of a sudden and judging by the song Alastor and Lucifer sing together, he's like maybe jealous of him or sees him as a threat??? Idk, guys, it's weird and I have no idea what the fuck is going on or why here. They barely have any screen time together and none of the interactions they have up until this point implies a more developed relationship than when he first started with the hotel. There could be a reason that we don't know yet especially with the connection between Lillith and Alastor that has been drawn before, but that does not expain this weird dynamic with Charlie that hasn't been established. This is my biggest qualm with episode 5. So how could episode 3 have changed this?

Episode 3 has Charlie entrust Vaggie with doing trust exercises, but Vaggie is not a very trusting person in general. She doesn't trust most of the people in the hotel even; especially Alastor. Since Vaggie is supposed to be running the trust exercises, Charlie doesn't really have anything to do except watch her, but what if she was somewhere else? You know what the ultimate trust exercise would be for Vaggie's character? The one person she holds dear accompanying an incredibly powerful and terrifying demon overlord on his day out with just the two of them. Vaggie's plot with the hotel gang would be her spying on Alastor and Charlie. She'd force the hotel gang to help her.

Now to focus more on the Alastor issue, Charlie asks Alastor if she can join him on his day out since she fully trusts that Vaggie can handle doing some trust exercises with the rest of the gang. At first Alastor says no and explains that he's got a very important meeting to attend today, but then Charlie shows him her power to turn into a tiny snake and tells him that no one will even notice that it's her (her dad could do it so why not her?) She also adds that if the people he's meeting with have anymore information about the extermination that it's important for her to know. Alastor caves and they head off. They have some banter on the way until Zestial shows up and talks with Alastor. Charlie is hiding in one of Alastor's jacket pockets (or maybe even just chilling on his shoulder since she's disguised as a snake.) until they get to the meeting with the other overlords.

After said meeting, we don't get to know who killed the angel. That whole scene with Zestial and Camilla is scrapped for this as well as the song. The meeting makes her realize just how dire the situation is with the knowledge that angels can be killed and that demons can kill them. Not only that, but the Vs, who control many parts of the media of hell, now know that and could release the information at anytime and start a violent revolt or even a war before she can prove that there doesn't need to be one. She feels scared and almost defeated after this, but Alastor comforts her saying he doesn't think redemption is possible, but if anyone can prove him and the rest of the worlds wrong, it's Charlie. Maybe they even sing a song together. Maybe she even talks about the troubles she has with her dad with him, hence why he doesn't like him immediately in episode 5.

After this moment, Vaggie, who has been spying on them almost the whole time, realizes that maybe she should be more trusting of people. Charlie finds her and the gang spying on them and concludes that Vaggie needs to do some trust exercises. The whole ordeal has brought everyone in the group closer together. They go back to the hotel where Charlie has Vaggie do the trust fall from the beginning of the episode. Vaggie, with baited breath and eyes closed, falls backwards. When she lands she thinks it must've been Charlie that caught her, but when she opens her eyes she's been caught by everyone arms including Alastor's. The only one who didn't catch her was Charlie who had her eyes closed the whole time trusting her friends to catch her.

They laugh about it and have some silly banter. Alastor watching them all laughing, looks at Charlie. She's still clearly shaken by the meeting. He gives Charlie a smile and reassuring hand on the shoulder looks to the gang all laughing together and says, "See, dear? You're already starting to prove me wrong." (or something like that) Charlie grins back at him and hugs him tightly as he begrudgingly, but also kind of not begrudgingly, lets her hug him and doesn't push her away. She lets go and joins the group followed by Alastor. The episode ends.

TL;DR: Allowing Alastor and Charlie to bond in episode 3 would've really helped episode 5 imo andd episode 3 had a perfect set up for that to happen. I still think even with this little fix you'd have to build up this dynamic more for it to really work tbh, but it's possible. Anyways, there's my little ramble. I do wanna know what y'all think of it, so if you have thoughts lemme know.

[sunny6677]

Explanation for this! This is a Hazbin Hotel Collective Rewrite—a little game where certain stuff about the show like the characters or certain plot points etc etc are rewritten based off poll votes. People of any stance on the show can join this btw! People who love it, who are critical of it or are neutral—this is just for fun.

Soooo this is Angel! He's hypersexual in this AU, which explains some of his more sexual behaviors despite being ace. Not much is changed about his personality here, and neither is his relationship with Val really changed since that's kind of important to his character—but he is shown to have more badass moments, like using his old mafia torture skills on people he suspects are trying to hurt the hotel in some way or kicking total ass during the final fight—and also not taking shit from people in general. He also doesn't harass Husk here. But his dirty minded nature and casual sexual behavior tend to make everyone at the hotel uncomfortable even if he doesn't realize why it's so bad. And this is what ends up leading to him and Husm having conflict, and also Husk personally going to find him when he runs off and finding out about his whole situation. OH and Angel gets a episode to himself revolving around his mafia life, his dynamic with his family and his positive relationship with his sister before he came to Hell!

[roguelemon]

For that "Lute Captured" idea of mine one of the ideas I have for it is Lute taking up Sir Pentious' torch as the magnet for slapstick. The basic thought is smashing her dignity to pieces and destroying any and all fear the Hotel crew, and perhaps Hell at large, has for her.

Stunning, beautiful yes.

Take somebody proud and knock them to the godamn floor. Maybe without that stick up her ass she won't be so cruel lol.

Also kinda fits in with the "assigned roles" of heaven. She could be completely useless with non-combat related tasks which is obviously a great means of taking the piss.

Have the gal try to fight a toaster when it burns her toast or something idk.

Removing her as a villain through humiliation deffinetly opens up more for other villains to come in, but if she's captured, who told lillith about Adam? There's so much you can do here with both comedy and still get some plot in there too. If you ever write it up feel free to visit my inbox again, i'd love to know where you take this au. =)

[chaifootsteps]

LMAFO what if I told you that I’ve got some major plot lines for season2, the lillith stuff is really stupid and the vees don’t die but it’s worse.

I'd believe you in the same you I'd believe someone who told me the sky outside is blue. Gotta have more solid proof than that if you want me to actually believe you, though.

[fire-emblem-poll]

FE forgotten polls (prelims)

Propaganda for Lillith:

“I don't even know but nobody is talking about her :(“

Propaganda for Shura:

“Little plot relevance, joins late/midgame, Corrinsexual (iirc?)”

[evilwriter37]

Warning, you reblogged an ask game, and I’m about to go ham.

1, 4, 8, 13, 21, 22, 24, 26, 31, 32, 35, 48, 50, and 71

Do you prefer writing one-shots or multichapter fics?

That's a hard one, because I've written quite a lot of both. One-shots do make up the majority of my fic library though, so I'll go with one-shots.

4. Where do you find inspiration for new ideas?

Anywhere and everywhere. @ashleybenlove is also super great for inspiration! Prompts are good, rewatching episodes, listening to music, pulling from a personal experience... It's like I never run out!

8. Do you prefer the beginning, middle, or end of a story?

Hm, usually I want to say the beginning. I'm very good at beginnings and first lines. Middles are fun, but can drag sometimes in the process, and endings are difficult to get just right.

13. What's a common writing tip that you almost always follow?

Change your font when editing. It makes your brain look at the story differently and pick up on mistakes you probably wouldn't have seen with the original font you wrote in.

21. Would you ever collaborate with another writer for a story?

I think so. I've done sort-of-collabs with @mdoodlerfandomart and those were always incredibly fun! But those were the kind where one person writes one half of the story and the other writes the second half. I wonder if I'd be able to collaborate with another writer where we could write on the same document at the same time. Maybe I can do one with you, @lifblogs? Like on a Good Omens one?

22. Are there certain types of writing you won't do? (style, pov, genre, tropes, etc.)

Mm, there is a lot I will write. It's probably longer than the list of things I won't write. I'll write from virtually anyone's perspective. I don't really write poetry, though I could see how it could be fun in fanfic form! I explore all sorts of genres in fanfic and write things I probably wouldn't write in original fic. Like, when it comes to realistic fiction in original work? Ew, no! Realistic fiction like modern AUs and such in fanfic? That works just fine for me.

24. Worst writing advice anyone ever gave you?

"Cut out sex scenes and filler. They're not necessary to the story or character development."

Okay, sure. Fuck off.

26. Which of your fics would you call your wildest ride?

Infernal Fascination for sure. 3 years, lots of harassment, but also lots of praise and fun. Yeah, that was wild for sure.

31. Do you start with the characters or the plot when writing?

Hm, I think plot maybe? I develop a plot based around the characters though, so maybe both.

32. Name three of your favorite fanfic writers.

@howtowhumpyourhiccup @fictionalnormalcy @lilliths-httyd-blog @ashleybenlove @thedragon-and-hisboy (No, I could not keep it to just 3).

35. What is one essential thing to remember when writing a villain?

That villains are human too. You can portray them as a monster, but the monstrous is human. Villains will be much easier to write and more fun and fleshed out when you treat them like human beings. (Unless of course, your villain is an eldritch horror of some kind.)

48. What do you look for in a beta?

I don't use a beta, but I think I would look for someone who is understanding of my writing style and sensitive about my RSD.

50. How long is your longest fic?

Infernal Fascination: 470k words.

71. When it comes to more complicated narratives, how do you keep track of outlines, characters, development, timeline, etc.?

I make an outline with notes at the top of the page about times, dates, characters, etc. My outlines are usually just bulleted list of the events that will happen within the story. I try to keep my outlines and notes in one document so that I don't have too many documents and confuse myself.

Get to Know Your Fic Writer

[ancientevangelions]

Hi! I just finished Evangelion 3.0 + 1.0 and I'm super confused with regards to Shinji's choice. He states that he'll get rid of Evas, but won't Adam and Lilith and other Angels still exist? How is that supposed to change the world for the better? I thought that Evas were made from Adam/Lilith.

I understand his main concern was the Evas themselves but still.....

Anno admitted that he didn't have an idea for the final movie. He got sloppy and went with the deus ex-machina ending because it's "easy." Instead of, you know, actually fixing the problem. I'm not a fan of the "no more evas" ending. Everyone is happy now, both human and animal. Except is that real happiness when you hit a magic button to "fix everything," or as stated in End of Eva/episodes 25 and 26, is that just another form of running away? Also, I would assume Adam and Lillith also got included in the "no more evas" even though they are separate, although they never seemed to matter to the Rebuild plot.

[aphantpoet]

So, I managed to watch the first four episodes of Hazbin Hotel. it's fun and I wouldn't call most of the small problems especially offensive but there's just something that didn't work for me. In the intro, Charlie Says that Heaven started the purges because they were worried about an uprising. Now, heaven having the purges regardless of any actual problems for hell, was a plot twist that I think all of us saw coming. My problem is, why does Charlie know that?. Hazbin keeps giving us plot threads and mysteries but answers them too soon. We didn't' need to know who killed the angel that early, even if they kept it as her I would have liked if she had been introduced more before the reveal.

The pacing problem bleeds over into character arcs like Vaggie and Angeldust. It feels like the show wants to be on season 2 for them before even properly establishing their character and flaws.

We also see it in where Charlie's meeting with Adam is placed. I don't need the dead angel to be moved back, maybe relegate it to rumour, then something we see the overlords talking about then confirm it during the meeting. It would have made so much more sense if the meeting was an act one closer of sorts; after Charlie's held out hope that she can negate the need for the purges by trying to help people live up to impossible standards only to have the rug pulled out from under her.

However, there's so much good in the series; getting to see the politics of Hell that we don't get in Helluva Boss, the side plot with Alastor and Vox's feud, where's Lillith?, Angeldusts' storyline, now that we know who killed the angel; how's that ticking timebomb gonna play out?. Hopefully the pacing issues can be sorted out. It's likely the crew didn't know if they were gonna have a season 2 which would explain the pacing problems.

Overall Hazbin Hotel has been hit and miss in many aspects but when it hits it hits hard and I hope that the crew can iron out some of the kinks for the story.

[eveningalchemist]

I was reading the 3rd book of the Lillith's Brood series and didn't expect to get jump-scared by a John Silver reference! There is no escape… (minor spoilers for the series below)

He's Portuguese and his name is João Eduardo Villas da Silva and he shows up for a couple chapters. Like the Silver of Black Sails, he loses his leg, but because this is sci-fi, it's completely grown back. He falls a bit for the person (human/alien hybrid named Jodahs) healing him, but leaves the plot as soon as his new leg is functional anyways. He's encouraged to pick a side in the main conflict but he is undecided by the time he leaves. We never hear from him again. I got chills for real and put the book down for a moment.

It made me think about Silver from Black Sails and if he hadn't lost his leg. Would it have been a totally different story or... a non-story? As in there would be nothing remarkable enough to make him more than a minor character in someone else's story.