last night i went to a really fun and informal fundraiser evening with jesse and lucy at westminster school, where they were interviewing each other. i got to ask a question which i’ve mused upon for some time about tom, shiv and greg. enjoy! full transcript under cut
Transcript
me: so i’m gonna have to look at what i wrote down.
jesse: that’s alright, you’re highly in credit since you know more about the show than us. more about john berryman.
(laughter)
lucy: tell us what we’ve done wrong so far!
me: god, no. i wouldn’t! so my question, this is a character based question, and one thing that probably got a bit subsumed in the fourth season just because everything was happening. but i’d like to know more about tom and shiv, and also greg. because my read on the situation between the three of them is that greg is a source of marital strife (laughter) that shiv never noticed, and what would it have taken for shiv to notice the depth of greg’s presence in their marriage.
jesse: uh huh.
me: and tom’s attachment to him.
jesse: uh huh. sometimes you get little bits in life or you see something and you’re like, i wish we were making the show, because i suddenly do want to hear shiv say ‘greg you’re a source of marital strife’.
(laughter)
jesse: that’s like, when you’re like, that’s gonna be in, we’re not gonna cut that.
lucy: absolutely.
jesse: (doing greg voice) wh-wh-what?!
(laughter)
lucy: yeah. well we enjoyed that, didn’t we. we had a scene in america decides, which was the only scene between shiv and greg.
jesse: oh yeah.
lucy: the election episode in the final season where she takes him into a little room and threatens him.
me: ah, but it’s jealousy over lukas, over the greg and lukas thing, and it’s like, have you forgotten your husband, who is also very attached to this limpet?
lucy: yeah. i would also say that there are marriages in which a third party is not an unuseful thing, as well. not in a forgiving way about infidelity, but i would say that there are things that tom can express with and at and on greg (laughter) as it were, to greg, that are useful because he’s both a - you know the great, the interesting thing about tom is that he’s both a courtier and a bully. he’s that rare combination of someone who you totally believe as being almost like (mimes bowing and doffing cap) ‘oh yes sorry thank you yes ma’am’ and also like, ‘i’m gonna kill you’ and that juxtaposition is what makes him so interesting.
but in his marriage to shiv he has no real way, until quite late i guess in the final season, where we explore it, to hold power over her and to use that part of himself. so he’s accepted the acquiescing, he’s accepted the role of courtier in that marriage, and greg is quite a useful place where he gets to express all of that, the bully in him so that maybe it doesn’t have to come out in the marriage. which might be bad, because perhaps it should do and then the marriage would’ve ended much earlier, yknow, when shiv would just be like ‘i’m not dealing with you challenging me in any way’. so it’s not until that balcony scene i think where he really challengers her much at all. possibly the beach scene, where he sort of says that he’s considered leaving her, and how that would feel. but with aggressive challenge? it’s all directed at greg, and greg is allowed to be the place where all those feelings go.
me: but the affection - there’s also affection between them.
jesse: YEAH. and i think that’s the other thing maybe you’re alluding to is like, she… i think, some things you know you’re putting in the show because you talk about them and other things just naturally occur, and audiences and people tell you what the show is and what you put in there and you didn’t even realise, but i think we were aware of this - she’s oblivious. her obliviousness is a big part of her wealth and her upbringing and… so there’s something homoerotic going on between greg and tom.
me: i mean it’s not for me to say.
(laughter)
jesse: and does she… i think there’s two ways of reading that, either she’s oblivious, and that’s intriguing and possible. the other is that she sort of - there’s a scene in, you know that one, in the sun valley media conference in argestes, where we wrote a bit where shiv shows up unexpected and tom’s sort of flirting with someone, and it never really landed that much. i think we were like, oh this really gonna, shiv’s gonna spark up when she sees him flirting with someone. and it’s one of those things where you were like, you know what? i don’t think she gives a hoot, really, does she.
(laughter)
jesse: it’s like, she hasn’t got that, that’s not in her belly, that fear of loss.
lucy: no.
jesse: so i think that goes, that probably goes for a same-sex relationship or flirtation as much as it does for with a woman.
lucy: i think that’s true.
jesse: like she really… even if he was like - and this is not the way that tom would be like - ‘i think i’d like to sleep with greg’, i think she’d be like (mimes looking at watch) ‘when?’.
(laughter)
jesse: (as shiv) ‘not when i’m in the city, that’s weird, tom’.
(laughter)
jesse: i don’t think she’d have any fundamental objection to that.
lucy: that’s true. i think jealousy is quite a low status emotion.
jesse: yes.
lucy: and i think that she would struggle to feel it.
(jesse laughs)
lucy: even if it was present in some way, she would never be able to access it because it would put her too much at a disadvantage. so i think yeah exactly that, it would be like, ‘oh i guess you’re going to fuck that boring woman now are you, tom’ or do that, like… she has to be here (mimes one hand above another hand) so jealousy can’t really be accessed by her. so she might be irritated by greg, but in the way you would be by a mosquito.
me: to her detriment.
lucy: to her detriment, sure, ultimately yeah.
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My Favorite webnovels/Webtoons/Webcomic/Whatever;
The Remarried Empress
My Gently Raised Beast
I Became the Villain’s Stepmother
Born as the Second Daughter
My In-Laws are Obsessed with Me
The Tyrant Wants to be Good
Men of the Harem
The Matchmaking Baby Princess
Who Made Me a Princess
For my Derelict Favorite
I Thought My Time Was Up
I’m the Queen in This Life
Tricked into the Heroine’s Stepmother
Woes of a Male Lead
Baby Tyrant
Hello Baby
Go Away Romeo
Monster Duke’s Daughter
Divorcing My Tyrant Husband
From a Knight to a Lady
The Male Lead’s Girlfriend
When the Third Wheel Strikes Back
A Heart for the Emperor
My Husband Changes Every Night
Edit to add(I’m constantly updating this);
The Twins New Life
I Got Pregnant with the Tyrant’s child
I’ll Raise You Well in This Life, Your Majesty!
The Evil Princess Dreams of a Gingerbread House
I’m the Soldier’s EX-Girlfriend
I Adopted the Male Lead
Villains Are Destined to Die
The Crown Princess Scandal
Marry My Husband
Perfect Marriage Revenge
Boyfriend of the Dead
Refund High School
Siren’s Lament
Empire’s Cutest Little Hostage
A Tender Heart; The Story of How I Became A Duke’s Maid (dropped due to SPOILERS the child being the ml and his nanny being the fl)
I Hold the Tyrant’s Heart
Lout of the Count’s family
I Am the Villain
The Crown Princess Scandal
The Dragon King’s Bride
Please Kill My Husband
The Reason Why Raeliana Ended up at the Duke’s Mansion
Am I Your Daughter?
Taming the Marquess
Pricilla’s Marriage Proposal
Crowning my Feral Prince
Under the Oak Tree
Finding Camellia
I Raised a Black Dragon
Adeline’s Darkest Night
Wish Upon a Husband
My Husband, My Sister, and I
I’m Being Raised By Villians
Talented Baby Squirrel
The Greatest Estate Developer
The Little Princess and Her Monster Prince
Surviving as the Tyrant’s Daughter
Father I Don’t Want This Marriage
Ten Ways to Get Dumped by a Tyrant
I Will Live The Life of a Villainess
Vampire Husband
Cursed Princess Club
What the Evil Dragon Lives For
1HP Club
Days With You
Batman: Wayne Family Adventures
Love Me to Death
Suitor Armor
I’ll Be the Matriarch in This Life
How is This Hot Duke Just a Background Character
My Three Tyrant Brothers
You Are Obsessing Over the Wrong Person, Lord of the Tower!
Beware the Villainess!
It’s Not Your Baby!
Being Loved for the First Time
I Will Divorce the Female Lead’s Older Brother
Everyone’s Princess
Villainess Have More Fun.
A Wicked Tale of Cinderella’s Stepmom
A Stepmother’s Marchen
The Beloved Fake Saint
Daughter of the Archmage
How to Hide the Emperor’s Child
The Male Lead’s Little Lion Daughter
The Crow’s Prince
The Reason for the Twin Lady’s Disguise
Adopted by a Murderous Duke Family
If anyone wants a one-shot based on a character from any of these, let me know
If anyone know where I can continue reading these for free, pls let me know (I’m broke);
Empire’s Cutest Little Hostage
A Tender Heart; The Story of How I Became A Duke’s Maid (nvm. About this one, I’ve been told that the child IS the Ml)
I Hold the Tyrant’s Heart
Lout of the Count’s family (found on Tapas)
Crowning my Feral Prince
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It’s not that Robin is bitter. She’s not. Really. Bitterness implies anger. She’s not angry. Not at all. She’s… okay, she’s jealous. Just a little bit. And that’s fine. That’s… well, it’s not expected, exactly, because nothing about this situation could have been predicted in the first place so there’s been nothing to expect. It’s not expected, but it makes sense. Who wouldn’t be jealous?
And, like, there’s something else, too. Something a little darker simmering just beneath the surface of her jealousy that Robin’s been having a hard time putting a name to. Not bitterness, though.
Maybe it's because Steve is hers. Yeah, platonic with a capital P, all of that, but he is hers. Back before Vecna, when he was trying to date every pretty girl who walked into the video store, that was different. Not a single one of those girls was a threat to what Robin and Steve have because that's on a different level.
This, though? Maybe Robin feels a little threatened.
Steve's beside her at the counter, his elbows on the glass surface of it as he leans forward to see his own reflection in the tiny compact he'd pulled from Robin's bag. He's clumsily dabbing her concealer on his neck to cover the red and purple marks that make him look more like the victim of a vampire than the love-drunk dweeb he actually is.
So, yeah. Robin's definitely a little bit jealous because where the hell is her great gay love affair, huh? How the hell did her dingus get his first gay kiss before she did? And how has he been able to seamlessly, unconditionally accept this part of himself when it had taken her years to come to terms with who she is?
And yes, she absolutely feels threatened by this burgeoning thing between Steve and Eddie, of all people. Becuase the way Steve and Eddie get along, the way they're so in tune with each other, it's kind of similar to the way Robin and Steve get along. It makes Robin feel prickly, because those silent conversations those two have started having? Those belong to Robin.
What if she loses him to Eddie?
It's irrational, because Steve and Robin were separated at birth or something, and he would never, ever, ever abandon her and she knows it. Knowing doesn't silence her fears, though.
And that sucks, because Robin should be the most supportive cheerleader of a best friend, and she is happy for them, honestly.
But damn. Eddie's almost always around now, and that's fine, it's great, really. Because she likes Eddie, thinks he's great, thinks he's an awesome match for Steve. It's nice to have someone else like her around, someone who can commiserate with her anxiety about being queer in a little place like Hawkins.
Or, it would be nice, if Eddie and Steve could stop sucking face for, like, a minute and a half when it's just the three of them hanging out.
Robin has never third wheeled this hard in her life.
its just a little thing, but hi i'm going to start publishing stuff now i think
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