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blissfulrain12 · 9 days ago

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Cockpit Conversation Analysis

So I just wanted to go over my thoughts on this conversation cause I think people miss out on a few things. It's the first conversation we see between Curly and Jimmy when it's just the two of them. Before it happens we're told that Jimmy has been difficult with Anya, making her job harder and saying things that are sexual harassment (if the cartoon horse question isn't actually on the eval). We go into the conversation with the framing that Jimmy and Curly are friends. They've known each other for a long time and Curly is confident Jimmy won't bullshit him. Except on the way to the cockpit we get Curly's one and only bizarro moment and it's an expression of fear and anxiety. With this context in mind let's look at the actual conversation.

Transcript from @familiarartistname they're awesome for providing these.

I've already talked about these lines a bit but to sum up Jimmy asks Curly to fake it and Curly refuses to forcing him to go through the eval.

What I want to point out for this post is that Jimmy's not wrong in his assessment of how useless the psych evals are. I think his general irritation with the eval helps mask his disdain for Anya. Especially if being attracted to cartoon horses is an actual question in universe and not just an easter egg on the in game eval sheet. If it is I think this is part of why Curly and Anya don't take Jimmy as seriously as they should here.

I also think it's important to note how and when Curly bends the rules. He'll do Jimmy's eval for Anya but he won't make up answers for Jimmy. I think this is an example of the balancing act that Curly is engaged in as captain.

These next lines are interesting to me. One is that Curly seems to take separation of what PE needs to know and not know. He makes it clear that whatever Jimmy says here is not going to be repeated to the company. He does something similar for Anya when he thinks she took the gun during a breakdown over the layoffs. Notably he doesn't open up to Anya during his own eval. I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason he doesn't is because of a lack of this distinction. This is also another example of Curly doing that balancing act of being a captain. Managing what the company should know while protecting his coworkers' mental health.

The other interesting part is Jimmy's answer to the question. He likes it cause they're in control here. I think Jimmy is the most positive about working for PE and it's all because he feels in control. I think people miss it but Jimny is happy for the most part pre layoff. He's in control what more could he want?

I think it's interesting that he says this because on paper Jimmy's not in control. I've seen people call Jimmy Curly's co-captain but he's not. He's just the co-pilot and by the looks of things isn't actually of higher rank than the rest of the crew. Post crash it takes 2 months for him to take the captain title and he gets push back from the others. If he did outrank them or was co-captain leadership would have instantly passed to him but it doesn't. Yet Jimmy says "We're in control" because Curly's control is his control because he controls/leeches off of Curly. I think this line is our first warning sign that something's not quite right with their relationship.

This part of the conversation has a lot going on even though it's so few lines. First it tells us that Jimmy liking the job is unexpected because he's struggled in the past and people praise Curly as a captain and Jimmy doesn't like that.

Focusing on Jimmy's line I think this is the first line that people pick up on that their friendship is strange because who tells their friend people praising them is annoying? If you look at the flow of the conversation there's no reason for Jimmy to bring this up as well. It goes "How are you?" "Great" "That's unexpected because of your past" "Yeah well people praising you is annoying". They're not talking about Curly or how people see him as a captain. Jimmy brings it up and calls it annoying simply to hurt Curly.

Jimmy takes Curly bringing up his struggles as an attack so he attacks back by making him feel bad about something good. Remember that when Jimmy brings this up during the birthday scene he misquotes Curly as saying "struggle of a life" when that's not what Curly said at all. That's how Jimmy felt about it though. This also isn't the last time Jimmy uses Curly's success as a captain as a weapon against him either. The way Jimmy does this is also very emotionally abusive. Jimmy isn't just framing praise for Curly as bad but bad because it upsets Jimmy. It might not seem like much but comments like these are links in a chain, they add up together.

For Curly's part of the conversation I've seen interesting interpretations of what those "struggles" were but I think we do lose some context sometimes. It's important to remember that Curly thinks Jimmy's struggles would've led him to dislike being a freighter pilot. Meaning his struggles are most likely more personal in nature.

So Jimmy switches topics again by asking Curly what's bothering him. Jimmy also does this during the birthday party scene. He seems very intune with Curly's emotions able to see past any attempts to hide it and see that he's upset. Which does indicate their closeness and friendship.

As for the last line looking at this transcript made me realize how much the fandom associates this suicidal imagery with Curly even though it's Jimmy who says it. In fact I don't think Curly ever describes his feelings like this it's always Jimmy who says it about Curly. This is a very odd way to ask your friend why he seems upset and iirc the next time Jimmy brings this imagery up to Curly is right before he attempts a murder-suicide.

(The line "And that's bad?" should be green as that's Jimmy.)

Curly's answer to Jimmy's question is very interesting because it's not uncommon for people his age to feel this way. We spend the first part of our lives growing into, discovering, and establishing the people we're going to be. When we hit our 30s/40s it's natural to look over who you've become and what you've made for yourself and ask "Am I satisfied with this?" I think for Curly he's leaning towards "no".

It's not that Curly thinks he's above his job, he's just not satisfied in it. It's like how Swansea isn't satisfied with the life of a family man even though society says that's the "right" way to live. Curly is weighing the risks and benefits of staying in a steady job he's successful at vs starting over with something that will satisfy him even if he's not conventionally successful at it. It's a heavy decision to make and we know from the dlc for How Fish Are Made that Curly regrets not changing sooner.

As for Jimmy's response, he in fact doesn't get it. It's fascinating how Jimmy took Curly's words about life satisfaction and turned it into being about career success and hierarchy. Curly's feelings have nothing to do with reaching the top of his career but Jimmy can't see this. Jimmy sees the world through Capitalist/Patriarchal hierarchies and has a habit of projecting his feelings/pov onto others. This is the closest he can get to understanding where Curly is in his life right now. Which makes sense because Jimmy comes from poverty and has struggled in the past he's not at the same life stage as Curly.

It's also fascinating that again we see imagery that the fandom associates with Curly being something Jimmy says about Curly and that Curly never expresses. The only time this imagery comes up for Curly iirc is his bizzaro sequence leading up to this conversation with Jimmy. The ladder is a metaphor Jimmy imposes on Curly. He also kind of imposes this sense of ambition onto Curly. Like it's only natural that after reaching the top of one ladder a man would look for a new ladder to climb.

There's something about the last thing Jimmy says here that is necessary to point out because I think people miss it. Jimmy turns the conversation back to himself. He's made Curly's feelings about himself and once again made Curly's feelings in opposition to his own. Curly's dissatisfaction while being at the top vs Jimmy still climbing.

Lastly Curly knows Jimmy doesn't get it. "Something like that" indicates Jimmy's interpretation isn't right and later in the birthday party scene Curly reinforces this by saying things like "what I was trying to tell you". So yeah Curly knows that Jimmy doesn't understand him but doesn't try to explain further.

Curly's last bit of dialog in this scene is him comforting Jimmy. Remember how I said Jimmy recenters himself despite the conversation at this point being about Curly? This is what I mean. Jimmy asked Curly to be vulnerable with him and Curly ends up comforting Jimmy. Jimmy gives Curly no words of reassurance here, in fact Curly doesn't even get understanding.

In comparison see my Dead Pixel analysis where even though Curly doesn't see the pixel he still believes Anya and aligns with her opinion of the screen being nice. There's no alignment here between Curly and Jimmy, they are talking about 2 different things and it's one sided in Jimmy's favor. In the Dead Pixel convo notice how Anya continues to open up to him, she goes from the pixel to the time left to the locks. Curly in comparison stops trying.

This line also establishes Curly's belief in Jimmy. A belief that even this conversation demonstrates that he shouldn't have. But it's subtle and I can't blame Curly for missing all the things wrong here when so many of the fandom misses it too. We give the conversation the benefit of the doubt because they're friends and we don't know the full scope of Jimmy yet. It's also interesting cause this is the only time Curly says he believes in Jimmy outright and yet the way he believes Anya about Jimmy brings up questions for another time.

Alright last bit and it's from Jimmy himself. So two things from those first lines. One we have Jimmy back to feeling good from Curly's belief in him. A reminder that back when he was asked how he was doing he was fine. Jimmy's feelings are the priority here. Two we see Jimmy's insecurities in here. He's insecure about how his eval comes across. He's very insecure about how he's precieved which comes up again and again through his obsession with reputation, being a hero, and being a patriarch. I also think this points to where his struggles might be in. The evals are labeled as psychological but the actual questions are about employee productivity. Which part of that Jimmy is worried about I'm not sure.

Then we get the message from corporate and Jimmy is instantly out of there. Which brings me back to the beginning. Jimmy likes it there cause "we're in control" and yet when the responsibility of that control shows up he excuses himself. Granted there may be a rule that no one else can be in the room when messages come in but that reinforces the fact that Jimmy doesn't have any power on paper. He's not a co-captain. Jimmy's sense of control comes from his power over Curly.

So yeah my final thoughts? This conversation is unhealthy and it's the nicest conversation we see Jimmy have with the actual Curly. We get a little joking around here and there but one on one longer convos? This is as nice as it gets. In context Curly experiences feelings of fear, anxiety, and isolation on his way to this conversation. It's full of unhealthy moments and the one sided prioritizing of Jimmy's feelings. The status quo for them has not changed yet. If this is an example of what their average conversations are like their relationship is emotionally abusive.

Imagine having a friendship where you have to always prioritize your friend's emotions over your own. Where if you say something that bothers them they take verbal potshots at you. Where they make you feel guilty for being more successful. Where they make your vulnerabilities about them. It's like I said it's links in a chain. By themselves it's not a problem but together over time these behaviors will do damage to a person.

And putting this conversation back into context this is one of three verbally abusive moments we witness in the span of a week. And there are indicators that in each that these abusive behaviors aren't new. Curly in this conversation doesn't question Jimmy claiming control or the "praise for you is annoying" comment. None of this is weird to him and that's a bad sign. Abusive behavior was already normalized on the Tulpar, it was a powder keg waiting to happen.

#If you wonder why Curly reacts so weirdly to Anya's abuse this is part of why #Jimmy's abusive behavior is already normal to Curly and his responses to that abuse are well established #Looking at this conversation you see that he's already trained to prioritize Jimmy's emotions #He does it here and he does it with Anya #Jimmy can say what he wants to Curly but Curly has to be careful with Jimmy #We also see that Jimmy was projecting onto Curly hard even before the layoffs #He does it like 3 times in this one conversation #Curly and Jimmy should have never been working together #And I don't mean that Curly shouldn't have helped his friend get a job #Though maybe he shouldn't have set him up at PE because no one should work at PE but that is a different conversation #No PE should have never allowed friends or family to work together in a long term isolated environment #It is a breeding ground for abuse as is but putting pre-established relationships through it scales up the rusk by magnitudes #Like if Curly and Jimmy's friendship wasn't abusive before PE being stuck together in an isolated space helped make it so #Just picture your friend starting to treat you badly and you get away from them #you're separated from your support network and you have to work with them or the company will punish you #Being Captain can't help you when you're discouraged from seeking help for your own abuse #This analysis took far too long #I does these on my phone and had to redo a whole section because my signal at work sucked 😭#mouthwashing #curly mouthwashing #jimmy mouthwashing #abuse #captain curly

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withthewindinherfootsteps · 3 months ago

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Wei Wuxian and Narrative Agency – Part Two

For Xiantober Day Three: Conviction (of a sort)... in which the author temporarily forgets to focus on narrative agency or on Wei Wuxian, in favour of analysing relevant themes and characters that relate to Wei Wuxian. But he does get focus, and again, contextualising him is why i’m exploring these other things, so no harm done.

(Part One | Part Three | Full version on AO3)

It’s Not Just Optimism: Resentment and Self-Definition

Before we discuss the narrative again, let’s take a break to discuss one of my other favourite aspects of Wei Wuxian. We’ve seen how the narrative treats tragedy, and we’ll soon explore how it reflects Wei Wuxian’s views on tragedy. But what actually are these views?

Because the thing is – the narrative and plot can emphasise agency and choice all it likes, but focusing solely on that leaves out the character. And it’s Wei Wuxian’s character that deserves the credit for how he defines himself (…in-universe). If someone had gone through everything he had, who could blame them for being unable to keep going, unable to let go of resentment, unable to see anything that was still worth living for, to see any value in altruism?

(Also, I do have to emphasise this: you can have perfectly healthy coping mechanisms, but still get extremely traumatised. Everyone has a limit to what they can take, that limit differs, and that isn’t your fault. It just so happens that Wei Wuxian’s limit is extremely high (and even he reaches it when everything falls apart in such quick succession near the end of his first life!))

This isn’t something that’s ignored in MDZS. We see multiple characters who have gone through similar levels of suffering as Wei Wuxian, or even less suffering than him*, who do react in some of the ways mentioned above. Whether or not the narrative condemns them depends on if they hold onto resentment from their tragedies and use it to harm others – Xiao Xingchen and Qin Su, for example, aren’t condemned for their suicides (nor should they be, suicide/suicidal ideation isn’t anything anyone should be blamed for), because nobody was intentionally hurt as a result. But people like Xue Yang, who was treated cruelly and senselessly lost his finger, but went on to murder an entire clan as a result; or Jin Guangyao, who remembered the slights against him and his mother down to the exact wording of Jin Guangshan’s dismissal of her freedom, which may have justly hurt him but also unjustly lead him to both burn down a brothel and (separately) kill or imprison multiple innocent prostitutes; or Jiang Cheng, whose resentment for Wei Wuxian due to the latter’s actions lead him to harm many others after his death simply because they were similar**, are condemned.

Why mention this? Well, these different reactions show it isn’t just a quirk of the universe that people are more tolerant to pain – Wei Wuxian’s reactions are a deliberate choice on the part of MXTX, not a writing flaw stemming from misunderstanding the severity of trauma***. But more importantly, many of these characters deliberately foil Wei Wuxian, and so they can give us a good insight into what sets him apart from them (or rather, from the characters who aren’t completely broken by their pain, because that way we know it isn’t simply a difference in tolerance but rather one in attitude). And as I’ve discussed, this has to do with accepting events and letting them go, rather than holding onto resentment.

Part of this may come from differences in personality (though that’s never an excuse for hurting others) – but, though Jiang Yanli may claim Wei Wuxian was someone “born with a smiling look” (Chapter 24, EXR), there are two philosophies Wei Wuxian consciously holds onto that have to do with this attitude:

“Let the self judge the right and wrongs, let others decide whether to praise or blame, let gains and losses remain uncommented on.” Chapter 75, EXR translation

“Remember the things others do for you, not the things you do for others. Only when people don't hold so much in their hearts would they finally feel free.” Chapter 113, EXR translation

And crucially, these ideas directly contrast the actions and mindsets of the antagonists above. All three focus on their ‘gains and losses’, with their suffering at the hands of others being a major motive to harm those others/those affiliated with those others (Xue Yang’s finger; the slights against Jin Guangyao and his mother due to the latter’s job; Wei Wuxian’s ‘betrayal’ and his role in Jiang Yanli’s death, as well as false blame on him for the deaths of Jiang Cheng’s parents, and Jiang Cheng’s inferiority complex). Jin Guangyao and Jiang Cheng are also very focused on their reputation, or in other words, on whether ‘others decide (…) to praise or blame’ them (according to Chapter 10 of the EXR translation, in what seems to be omniscient POV heading into Jiang Cheng’s, the latter ‘cared about maintaining his reputation above anything else’. Meanwhile, much of Jin Guangyao’s actions were taken to protect his reputation, including the brothel burning, as a part of the aim was to conceal which brothel he grew up in (Chapter 104)).

Additionally, much of Jin Guangyao’s resentment stems from how others treat (‘blam[ing]’ him, insulting him), compared to how they treat others (‘prais[ing]’ them):

“But do you know what it was that made me lose hope completely? I’ll answer your first question now. It wasn’t that I’d never be worth a single hair on Jin ZiXuan or one of the holes in Jin ZiXun, it wasn’t that he took back Mo XuanYu, it wasn’t that he tried every possible way to make me a mere figurehead either. It was the truth he once told the maid beside me when he was out indulging himself again.” Chapter 105, EXR

Though the other points didn’t make him lose hope completely, the implication is that they did affect him too (as shown by how he speaks about them), with Jin Guangshan’s words about Meng Shi being the final straw. ‘Los[ing] hope’ here of course relates to holding onto resentment, as Jin Guangyao’s loss of hope is what led him to murder out of his hatred.

Finally, both Jin Guangyao and Jiang Cheng also hold resentment due to holding onto what they’ve done for others, or even onto who they themselves are, without being treated accordingly – and though it makes sense to be hurt by all these things and these reactions are valid, the pain from holding that in your heart and the danger from holding onto it is precisely why MDZS condemns it:

“Why is it that even if I face everyone with a smile, I might not even receive the lowest form of respect, while even though your father was extremely arrogant, people flocked to him? Could you tell me why we were born from the same person but your father could relax at home with the love of his life playing with his child, while I never even dared be alone for long with my wife, shivering out of fright at first glance of my son? And I was ordered to do such a thing by my father as if it was natural—to kill an extremely dangerous figure who could flip out and conjure up a bloody massacre with his corpses anytime! “Why is it that even though we were born on the same day, Jin GuangShan could host a grand banquet for one son, and watch with his own eyes how his subordinate kicked his other son down Koi Tower, from the first stair to the last!” Chapter 105, EXR

(He brings up his role in Wei Wuxian’s downfall due to this as well, in addition to creating any excuse he can to absolve himself of others’ blame – he’s being treated unjustly and hated for something he’s done, even though he was ordered to do that thing by his father and it made sense!)

Jiang Cheng, “Are you stupid? You only counted the time to return and not the time to go there? Let alone the fact that after I got there I had to lead people and search through the entire mountain for the old banyan tree, then dig open the hole that got blocked up by Wen Chao and his people, and rescue you within seven days. Where’s your gratitude?!” (…) He raised his voice, “You killed the Xuanwu of Slaughter together with Lan WangJi, bathing in blood! How great is that?! But what about me?!” He punched his fist into a pillar in the hall, clenching his teeth, “�� I have also been running around for days, completely exhausted, with not one second of rest!” Chapter 56, EXR

(And, a bonus to show this being a part of Jiang Cheng’s mindset without stemming from being hurt by a specific event, even when he’s being encouraging:)

“So it seems that both of you killed it together. What’s yours is yours. Why would you give him all the credit?” Chapter 56, EXR

(This moment is a nice display of the contrast between Wei Wuxian’s and Jiang Cheng’s mindsets as well, with the former focusing on what Lan Wangji (‘others’) did for him instead of seeking credit for his role!)

To repeat – of course these feelings are understandable, and I’m not blaming them for feeling this way. What I am placing blame on is letting those feelings drive you to murder many innocent prostitutes, or to let this sense of a debt you’re owed (which is what the philosophy is actually warning away from, because if you hold onto what you do for others, the natural expectation is that they’re indebted to you and should do something for you as a result) turn into resentment towards someone for not acting the way you think they should, leading you to help murder them, even if your sister sacrificed herself specifically to save their life.

This is the danger of holding onto resentment. And are these actions not a choice? Would you, independent of MDZS, absolve someone of a crime because their ‘personality just leads them that way’?

The same is true for acting on these two philosophies, and letting resentment go. And it’s all the more impressive when someone has as much potential resentment to hold onto as Wei Wuxian does.

Of course, Wei Wuxian himself isn’t completely infallible – which further supports the idea that this isn’t just a natural, unalterable quirk, since we see him act contradictory to his usual self as well. But the narrative’s view of resentment in these moments doesn’t change. Importantly, the times he does let resentment drive what he’s doing, during the Sunshot Campaign and Nightless City (as well as him being quick to anger at Phoenix Mountain, etc), it isn’t presented as in the right**** — and though he still lets go of it quickly enough to protect a group related to the one that hurt him (people of the Wen sect, the cultivators who participated in the Siege), it doesn’t prevent the harm done during these times. Additionally, the times he metaphorically can’t control and reign in his resentment in the form of guidao – at Qiongqi Path and, again, at Nightless City – pain is caused to innocents (Jin Zixuan and Jiang Yanli). This is what his internal thoughts have to say when he comes across cultivators gossiping about him, shortly after Wen Qing and Wen Ning have sacrificed themselves:

No matter what he did, not a single good word would come out of these people’s mouths. When he won, others feared; when he lost, others rejoiced. Chapter 77, EXR

He’s hurt by other people praising and blaming him! Holding onto this philosophy isn’t automatic, that decision isn’t simply encoded within him somehow.

But that brings us to another relevant theme: that these characters aren’t infallible, because they’re not mythical creatures or concepts brought to life. Everyone is human.

However, although he thought that his heart was like a stone, in the end, he was still human, not some emotionless grass or plant. Chapter 8, EXR

OuYang ZiZhen, “HanGuang-Jun, why did Senior Wei collapse?” Lan WangJi, “Fatigue.” Lan JingYi was amazed, “I thought that Senior Wei would never get tired!” The other boys felt somewhat astonished as well. That the legendary YiLing Patriarch could collapse from fatigue from dealing with walking corpses—they all thought that the YiLing Patriarch should be able to settle them with just a snap of his fingers. However, Lan WangJi shook his head. He only said four words, “We are all human.” They were all human. How could a human be tireless? How could they stand forever? Chapter 84, EXR

Even with Wei Wuxian’s temperament, even with his attitude, he’s still human! Just as he’s not immune from being affected by harsh words to do with his past, just as he’s not immune from being affected by exhaustion, he’s not immune to being hurt by or angry at his circumstances. As we see in the Sunshot Campaign and at Nightless City, he’s not immune to dwelling on his misfortunes, to being driven by his hurt and anger and by resentment he holds onto (consciously! At Nightless City, Wei Wuxian deliberately accepts the curses thrown at him, because ‘anger was the only thing that could suppress the other feelings within his heart’ (Chapter 78)).

But nearly always, he chooses not to. The Wen remnants he saved were innocent, yes, and Wen Ning and Wen Qing helped him previously – but in his second life, he could’ve easily kept holding onto his resentment and left the cultivators who besieged him, who killed him and those under his protection, to die at the Second Siege. But he didn’t! He held true to his own philosophy, to judge the right and wrongs yourself independent of what others do, and saved them.

Because this is what’s important to him, because this is how he wishes to act in the present, and because he doesn’t let himself be defined by the tragedies he went through.

The donkey seemed as if it knew that he wasn’t in a great mood [due to others bringing up what happened in his past], and for once, it wasn’t being loud out of impatience. A moment of silence passed, and it turned around to leave. Wei WuXian sat by the stream, not responding at all. It turned around to look, throwing its hooves onto the ground, but Wei WuXian still paid no attention to it. The donkey had to come back sulkily, biting and tugging on the corner of Wei WuXian’s collar. He could choose to go, and he could choose to not go. Seeing that the donkey had [gone] as far as to use his mouth, Wei WuXian decided to follow him. Chapter 8, EXR*****

Immediately after this, he’ll continue investigating the puzzle of Dafan Mountain’s night hunt; he’ll come across a ghost, ask where it’s hurt and offer to take a look at it; he’ll rush off to save Jin Ling and the Lan juniors, figuring out the truth behind the dancing goddess and being the only one to do so. Just as it’s more important to the narrative, this – quick thinking, problem solving, compassion, doing the right thing, even seeking out excitement – is what Wei Wuxian finds more important about his own self, and what he chooses to focus on.

Some final questions to end things.

If you saw Wei Wuxian, without any knowledge of what happened in MDZS, without any work done by the narrative structure or by knowledge of tropes – would you have expected the backstory he had? Would you expect his parents to have died when he was at an age where he could barely remember them? Would you expect him to have lived on the streets until he was nine years old, or to have been taken into an unjust and extremely volatile household, or to have (chosen to) lose the source of powers he was very proud of – shortly before he was thrown, now powerless, into the equivalent of hell for three months? Would you expect his first life to have ended because protecting innocents (knowingly) led to the entire world crusading against him, because their siege resulted in him being torn apart? Or would you not think of tragedy when it comes to this person who gleefully jokes and teases, who’s so smart and competent and knows it, who doesn’t focus on the negatives, who acts so confidently on his morals, who revels in life so much?

If you only saw Wei Wuxian’s backstory with no context of his character, would you expect him to remain this way?

And, if you saw Wei Wuxian’s actions in the present day, without knowing what tragedies happened in his past, would he feel like an incomplete character?

It’s impossible to answer, of course – even in the present day, you get information about his past.

But I’m inclined to say no.

(Part One | Part Three | Full version on AO3)

—

*But again, let me emphasise – especially in real life, doing the trauma olympics is never good! As I said, everyone has limits, everyone’s limits differ, and just because one person can cope with something doesn’t mean another person can, even with the same mechanisms. And that shouldn’t lead to any judgement!

I say ‘especially in real life’ because in fiction, some characters’ experiences are often made similar or different to others’ in order to parallel or foil them – in which case comparison is often the point. But trauma olympics (‘this person suffered x amount so the other person should be able to take it!!’) is still bad, guys (especially since, as with MDZS, those parallels or foils are often there to explore the harm they do to others as a result, not simply how much trauma they can take).

**My thoughts on rumours here. Tl;dr, if Jin Ling (someone who’d want to defend him!) is saying he did (and that he “never let anyone go” – Chapter 24), if sources like Lan Wangji and Lan Sizhui act as if this is the case (Chapter 10 – to defend, you could say personal feelings play a role, but Lan Wangji especially is someone who knows not to, and explicitly doesn’t, make judgements without conclusive evidence. Again, see my thoughts on rumours) – and if Jiang Cheng backs up this behaviour (eg by telling Jin Ling to kill every demonic cultivator he sees and feed them to his dogs in his introduction – Chapter 7), it’s probably not a simple unbased rumour. There’s enough evidence to support its veracity.

***However, do note that Wei Wuxian isn’t an outlier, either – Lan Wangji, Wen Ning and Lan Sizhui (once he learns of his heritage) are all examples of other characters who aren’t overcome or twisted by their pain, instead still aiming to make the world a better place. And this is Jin Ling’s whole arc, too!

****I delve a lot more deeply into this here!

*****The role this moment plays isn’t actually something I caught myself – it came from a post about a reread of MDZS’ earlier chapters. I can’t find it myself, but if anybody has the link, that would be great (so I can cite it)!

—

Also, a shoutout to this incredible meta by @righteousinadversity – it’s what made me want to delve into this aspect two years ago! It’s still one of my favourite metas, and you enjoyed this, you’ll definitely enjoy that, too.

#yes i did gush a bit at the end but it’s *xiantober* it’s the wwx gushing month!#also re ‘antagonist’ and jc – i don’t want to get into discourse but there are two facts #1) an antagonist is someone who opposes or hinders the protagonists (regardless of their morality - eg L in death note is one)#2) jc is someone who does oppose and hinder the protagonists (capturing wwx in present day + being hostile to wangxian + besieging him in-#-his first life… and in his second life)#sure he isn’t one CONSISTENTLY (not throughout a lot of the flashbacks + during the second siege + in guanyin temple)#but that’s still a frequent role he PLAYS #regardless of how you think he should be presented or what you think he’s feeling – that’s the function his actions serve in the novel #anyway fic for day two will come but it’s still being worked on — i was in an analysis mood today so decided to do this first #mdzs meta #my meta #mdzs #wei wuxian #mo dao zu shi #魔道祖师 #grandmaster of demonic cultivation #gdc #jin guangyao #jiang cheng #(<- a little scared of this tag but he does feature a lot)#xiantober day 3 #this does admittedly feel less focused than the previous part but maybe i’ll rewrite it later

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