#and like shireen is HIS heir … but she’s also his only child. He has no sons to threaten her claim | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

atopvisenyashill · 8 months ago

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in a world where somehow in the end Stannis is King and Shireen is alive. Since we’re in fantasy land already, you think he would have betrothed Shireen to Devan Seaworth? Or to Edric Baratheon (he’s have to legitimize him to be sure but) ??

Largely depends on if he can have more kids. If melisandre can’t pull a visenya here for him, shireen is crown princess and she can’t be married to a bastard or a boy once step up from being a peasant. in a fantasy world where stannis wins the war, you can bet he’s done some severe pride swallowing and made a marriage match for shireen to win over an ally, but of course this does have the eventual benefit, when he can’t have another kid, of potentially setting shireen up with someone powerful to back her claim. davos is amazing but absolutely not. if he has SEVERAL more kids, maybe shireen marries devan but the thing is, this is the royal family, shireen is the oldest child, and even littlefinger was considered too low born for sansa, and he’s a bit more higher class than davos! so long as she remains the only or one of the only heirs to the throne, she Has to marry very high up.

WHOMST she marries likely depends on how stannis gets his throne. like, the obvious thing to do here from the jump is to contact ned or robb here his damn self and see if they want a shireen marriage. the north may not be heavily populated, but they have a loud voice and they tend to come as a block more than the other regions, so you’re gonna get a Lot of allies at once. he could have done the same with doran - again, not a Huge population but a loud voice & one with an axe to grind against both stannis’ main opps (the lannisters and tyrells).

tbh the martells are probably a better option because neither ned nor robb was ever gonna side with the lannisters, so if he makes it clear he’s on their side BEFORE robb is crowned, and also shares what he knows again BEFORE robb is crowned, i think it’s likely he can save shireen for trystane, and if he’s risking the possibility of his daughter inheriting after him, i Do think having someone whose family likely owns several tomes detailing the history of how nymeria forced the andals to accept rhoynar customs, she Might be a lil better off. altho of course you’d run into the “what are we dornish or something” attitude from the other westerosi, so you win some you lose some there. bran would make a great consort too of course, it’s just that like,,, you don’t NEED to bribe ned lmao & robb probably wouldn’t need to be bribed either (catelyn might insist tho tbf!!) but doran definitely would need some sort of guarantee here.

even if you did a scenario where say the series up until now happens but stannis changes the tide of the war and claims winterfell, then the riverlands, then King’s Landing and holds it through the long night, so davos has been his closest advisor this whole time…..shireen still needs a powerful family to support her if he can’t have kids. if he only has one (1) son and she inherits Storm’s End, i can see the daven just bc a lot of people are dead lmao, but i do think it’s more likely shireen & her inheritance is dangled in front of a potential ally during the war. IF she’s still single by the end of the war, AND he has like minimum TWO SONS,,,,,,,, yeah idk lmao i mean the spicers were just merchants and the westerlings are considered too low class now for marrying them, imagine a FORMER PIRATE from FLEA BOTTOM.

if you’re asking “would stannis go for it” i mean yeah, i can see stannis like robert getting romantically fixated on the idea of joining his bloodline with his besties and marrying their kids, absolutely. and davos would be deeply honored. but would it cause a big scandal? absolutely.

As for Edric…..hes robert’s son lmao Stannis is not legitimizing Edric because it puts HIMSELF in question AND shireen in question because a son of robert’s would come before a brother, let alone a NIECE. if stannis died & shireen lived i think it would make sense for them to pull an aly/baela under some circumstances, but so long as stannis is alive and still fighting for the throne, i’m not sure what he gains giving edric the ability to call himself a baratheon. if he was RENLY’S (lol, lmao) i could see it, as a way of just like getting ahead of any succession dispute by tying the two heirs together (bc i’m Sure some people would peddle the castle raised bastard boy over a sickly true born girl) but Robert’s son??? just feels too dangerous unless he WANTS to make edric his heir, and is legitimizing him by tying him to shireen. but, i just don’t know why stannis would want that lmao he doesn’t even LIKE robert aksjd.

#asks #anons #like if shireen was the only girl amongst five brothers #or even had a slew of brothers and sisters. maybe.#if ur looking for an excuse to get her hitched to one of them she needs either siblings. or for the edric scenario.#stannis has to be dead akskkd.

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asongofstarkandtargaryen · 2 years ago

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Jon is far from being the only character who describes someone's appearance unflattering on his inner thoughts. All the characters do the same and as long as they don't vocalise these thoughts they aren't harming anyone.

For the sake of comparison I gathered one quote per other young pov characters:

Bran:

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully [...]

AGOT - BRAN V ( this is about Old Nan who has always been kind to him)

Arya:

Desmond ushered the man inside. He was stooped and ugly, with an unkempt beard and unwashed clothes, yet Father greeted him pleasantly and asked his name.

AGOT- ARYA III

Dany:

They call him Frog, Dany recalled. She could see why. He was not a handsome man

ADWD-DANY VII

Are those three also like reddit dudebros? Because in my opinion none of them - Jon included- is hurting someone with their inner thoughts.

When it comes to Selyse and Shireen, it's not only Jon who describes them as ugly. Every character who ever commented on their appearance does so. Even Davos who isn't someone the fandom would call a sexist man.

Jon considers Shireen an ugly kid. But that doesn't mean he respects her any less because of it. He still treats her with respect and he considers that she is heir to the Kingdom as Stannis' only child. He doesn't share Val's prejudice over Shireen's greyscale.

It's different with Selyse but not because he finds her unattractive. He dislikes Selyse because from the moment she appeared she has been dismissive of him due to his young age and his low birth status. He dislikes her because of her prejudice and I'd say that he's justified on that.

Ngl I do feel kinda bad when Jon calls Myrcella insipid. I know where he is coming from because he was treated so badly by Catelyn and high born women plus he's like 14 years old and not super mature yet but I hope he overcomes this particular feeling. I like that he prefers independent women that goes against gender norms of his time but it does feel kind of unfair to judge girls for following what they were taught. Anyway, he is nice to Shireen and I'm sure if he met Myrcella or Margaery or whoever he would like them because really what matters to him is wether people are good or not. I just hope that he realizes someday that is not really their fault that society expects something from them.

I mean, Jon Snow only comes off better as a man in Westeros because the other guys in this world are awful. It's all relative.

He has contempt for ladies conforming to the status quo, propriety and rules, which is probably a result of the way Catelyn and Sansa treated him as a bastard growing up in WF. He uses 'looking like a girl' as a way to insult Joffrey. He thinks Myrcella is insipid. This quote here is dripping with disdain for girls like Sansa:

A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. - Jon, ADwD

Sansa had favored her mother’s gods over her father’s. She loved the statues, the pictures in leaded glass, the fragrance of burning incense, the septons with their robes and crystals, the magical play of the rainbows over altars inlaid with mother-of-pearl and onyx and lapis lazuli. Yet she could not deny that the godswood had a certain power too. Especially by night. Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me . . . - Sansa, ACoK

He mocks the Septa and Selyse Baratheon's appearance because they have body hair. He thinks Shireen is homely and ugly because of the greyscale.

So Jon Snow does prejudge women and girls and throws out these unfair labels like 'insipid' without actually getting to know them. The difference is that while Westeros is typically sexist against nonconforming girls like Arya and Brienne, Jon has sexist opinions about the traditional ladies of high society - Myrcella, Sansa, the Septa, Selyse etc. - who adhere to the patriarchal status quo.

Again, this is no doubt shaped and colored by Jon's childhood because bastardy is also a byproduct of Northern patriarchy and Jon bore the brunt of Cat's hate and anger.

It would have been interesting to see what Jon thought personally of Catelyn in this regard considering how active and involved she was in the running of Winterfell - Ned left her in charge when he left for KL - and she was definitely no damsel in distress 'waiting for a knight to rescue her'. However, his memories of Cat seem more centered around the loathing she had for him and he seems to have connected her to other ladies simply by the way she was forcing Arya to become a mini Sansa.

I do agree with you that if Jon gets to know some of these girls, he does tend to not be as rigid in his opinions. His sexist insults for the Septa and Selyse are because they are unpleasant and rigid in their orthodoxy. On the other had when he meets Alys Karstark, he admires her bravery and the proactive way she takes charge of her future and destiny.

I also suspect that some of GRRM's own sexist humor is peeking through Jon's POV chapters - like the Septa having to shave her legs? That sounds like the humor a middle aged man in the nineties would write about. Or descriptions like ugly and fat. Though, again I suspect GRRM's love for overweight characters and the many, many descriptions of them being fat with their many chins is about him being chubby and it's not meant as an insult. He just loves fat characters!!

So yeah, while Jon does come off as far better than like 99% of the men of Westeros, at the end of the day he can also be that reddit dudebro throwing out sexist insults.

#jon snow

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aegor-bamfsteel · 2 years ago

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What do you think about Selyse Baratheon? Sometimes she gives me vibes of Cersei and Lysa.

I’m a fan of Stannis, but even I know that he treats her terribly, and he wouldn’t have been better to a “more attractive”, more pleasant, more fecund wife. You thinking of Lysa/Cersei makes sense because she’s an unpleasant person trapped in a loveless marriage, which helps show why Selyse is how she is (this is one of the strengths of the main series, how even minor characters have context for their actions). The difference between Lysa/Cersei is that not only is Selyse never attractive (men go out of their way to mock her facial hair, and she never has a loved one that softens her character), but she doesn’t matter as much. Cersei is queen and Lysa is Hand’s wife, daughters of Lord Paramounts, both of them become regents, both of them have sons they spoil; meanwhile, Selyse is the niece of a Florent, only chosen as a bride because Jon Arryn wanted to curb Tyrell power. Marriage to a king’s brother is supposed to be a great triumph for her…except the king deflowered her cousin in her marriage bed, she’s lady of an inhospitable island with few followers, her husband is more interested in ships and smugglers and can hardly stand to touch her, so the only child she has with him is a daughter, who had greyscale as an infant. She does the opposite of spoil Shireen, snapping at her to not talk about her cousin to Val, sending her to her room, kissing her on her unscarred cheek, Shireen wears her hood in her presence curled up away from her…It makes sense that she’d be so taken with the Rhllor religion. Suddenly she matters, her husband is the savior of the world rather than an embittered Master of Ships, all that has gone wrong in her life (Edric’s conception, Stannis’ coldness, her lack of children) can be undone by the right magic words and actions (even child burning). Whereas Cersei/Lysa found comfort in lovers (or pretend lovers), she found her sense of purpose in Rhllor, and thus will hold on to him to the end. She’s a lot more than “crazy lady with fetuses in jars�� like the show depicted.

She actually has similarities to Stannis in their uncompromising attitudes and stiffness with people. However, just like Cersei/Lysa, she’s drawn much less sympathetically/impressively than her male counterpart. Petyr is one of the most formidable threats to House Stark in the series with little but his wits/money-making; Lysa is emotionally unstable, easily manipulated, and he kills her halfway through the series once she’s no longer useful to him. Tyrion and Jaime are hailed as two of the best characters in the series because of their complexity, and both are capable of bravery and even some kindness; contrast Cersei, who enables torture, murdered at a young age, is also vain and easily manipulated, runs her regency into the ground in less than a year, etc. GRRM says that Stannis is a righteous man for going North, he believes in meritocracy, and he has the most known victories of any commander in Westeros; Selyse…can you think of any redeeming traits for her? She mocks Cressen, advocates burning a child, wants to let the Hardhome wildlings die (so much for saving humanity), is classist and willfully misunderstands wildling culture, and she brings in the Florents who are incompetent (Imry) or cruel (Axell) leaders. Jon comments that she is always disappointing him. She has none of Shireen’s innocent openness, Stannis’ accomplishments and vision, Davos’ honesty and loyalty, or even Melisandre’s powers and showmanship. She’s repeatedly demeaned for her looks (as Lysa and later Cersei are), and I don’t think she’s made a sensible political decision in the series. But she doesn’t even have the “must protect my child at all costs” motivation of Lysa and Cersei, who do love their kids as more than just heirs to a seat, and took desperate actions to defend them. Maybe some of the ASOIAF theorists are right and she will show some love for Shireen at the end, giving her life trying to protect or avenge her, in a somewhat positive character twist.

#ask #opinion #selyse florent #asoiaf #paralells

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a-libra-writes · 3 years ago

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how do you think stannis would feel about having a younger second wife (post-selyse)? i suppose he’d be late 30s-early 40s and she’d be late teens-early 20s?

A very good question because by the time he's that age, he's just so bitter and miserable sjdfjsjfs. Thoughts below!

It likely was not Stannis' idea to have a second wife - he's said before, Shireen is his heir. He'd be content to not marry again, but... In Westeros, a late 30s-something man whose the brother of a king and "just" has a daughter for an heir is going to get highborn daughters thrown at him. When he walks through the Red Keep to a Small Council meeting, it's like passing a gauntlet of men trying to pawn off their daughters and sisters.

Since Lord Arryn is one of the more reasonable men in the Red Keep that Stannis actually gets along with (or actually respects), he'd probably be the one gently recommending brides... especially if this is when he's begun to suspect Robert's children are actually Cersei's bastards.

Now, if this was after Robert died, he would be much more pressured to pick up a wife for an alliance. Stannis himself probably wouldn't want to do it, but he'd see the sense in it, and there would likely be many lords trying to throw their daughters at the brother of the now-dead king. Something something "must do his duty" and get support for his claim.

This also raises the interesting question if this new bride wasn't remotely interested in R'hllor (or if Selyse passed before she was able to bring Mel to the court directly), would Melisandre still seek Stannis out? Perhaps she'd try to speak with the new bride, or find Stannis directly, since she believes in him so strongly? He might get more support if he stayed with the Seven, though Stannis is an athiest and only ever used R'hllor as a means to an end. It would make his image better, I'm trying to say, especially if his wife was from a beloved (and powerful) House or was beloved in her own right. Her support of him might quell a lot of grumbling about Stannis' associates (a foreign woman and a smuggler, gasp).

This is all political babble, though. As for his actual feelings, naturally, Stannis would be uncomfortable at the thought, especially if it's a girl 10-15 years his junior. I see him as a man who would bluntly say he's not marrying a child. I think eventually, he would marry, his stubbornness would give way to his sense of duty and desperate need for an alliance. If she were too young, he'd bluntly tell her he's not going to try anything until she's older. He'd probably just keep her at a safe distance, like he did with Shireen and Selyse in the later books.

If she were a grown woman whose actually able to help him with war plans (or political matters if this is before WOT5K), then it would still be a slow process of Stannis growing to trust her and letting her be emotionally close. A real "slow burn", as the kids say. At this age he's far more bitter, miserable and lonely, and might not trust her intentions or be willing to open up as he might in his youth.

#please give shireen a mother or sister figure :'(((#tho mel hanging out with the new bride is a very amusing thought #thank u for this delicious ask #stannis baratheon x reader #libra headcanons

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agentrouka-blog · 4 years ago

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I think SweetRobin dying and then LF gaslighting Sansa in order to have his grips on her makes sense. Grrm did say that characters will be at their lowest in TWOW . After that they will emerge victorious ( delivering justice within Winterfell after meeting Jeyne and her siblings ) . Also the guilt of being involved in her cousin's death something which I could see LF gaslighting her could take a mental toll upon her . Also all the child heirs- Shireen, Rickon, SweetRobin, Tommen and Myrcella , I could see them dying. I think SweetRobin's death could pave way for Harrold succeeding him ( though he will eventually die too ) in leading the Vale forces North to help her betrothed regain her home back. Also the theme of " triumph at what cost " also encapsulates perfectly. SweetRobin's survival and just I don't know makes the narrative look quite easy for Sansa . It's going to be hard for each of our Starklings before things go normal . Arya will be deepening in guilt with whatever violence and trauma she had to endure , meeting Stoneheart . Similar will be Bran who might harbour guilt for the death of an innocent ( Hodor ) . I think Sansa's could be similar too.

Hi anon!

The thing with Sweetrobin is that he is the rightful heir in Littlefinger's grasp. The bird in the hand. Being his stepfather (and bribing a few Vale lords, and Cersei's command to see him unharmed) is the ONLY reason he is Lord Protector of the Vale. Remove Sweetrobin, and Littlefinger is out because Harry is a grown man and needs no regents. Killing Sweetrobin would be self-sabotage. He could go off packing to Harrenhal.

The reason he is spending time and money on making the betrothal to "Alayne" happen right now is the fact that Harry is still only an heir with few prospects outside of that, he is not independently rich or impressive on his own. His aunt can chastise him and pressure him into marriage right now. Not once Sweetrobin is dead. He'll be everyone's boss then.

If the betrothal happens, Harry is locked into Littlefinger's influence by oath. He cannot marry someone else and father legal heirs without tainting his honor. This is a good status quo for Littlefinger to wait and see how things develop. During this time, he still needs Sweetrobin alive. Because while dishonorable, a betrothal can still be broken, especially if one party is a lowly bastard girl and the other the next thing to a king.

But even so, a marriage to "Alayne" would be impossible because she doesn't exist and a marriage to Sansa is impossible because she is already married, so he cannot lock down Harry in this final way and have control over Harry's future legal heir by Sansa. Would Harry go to the trouble of fighting for Sansa's rights - when she is already married! - if he already has the full power of his new title and could marry anyone he wanted?

So he still needs Sweetrobin alive until Tyrion turns up dead or an annullment becomes feasible. Harry the Heir is much less independently powerful and may be swayed by the prospect of glory in battle and the appeal of his future wife's inheritance. Because Sweetrobin might not die.

And even if they marry, who's to say that Harry will allow himself to be influenced by Sansa in any way? What power would Littlefinger truly have once he hands his not-daughter Sansa Stark over to him? Unless he is still Lord Protector, none. So he still needs Sweetrobin alive.

Of course, for Littlefinger to keep full control, Harry definitely needs to die as soon as Sansa has had a child by him. That baby is the new Sweetrobin for Littlefinger to base his power on.

And only then would it be safe for Sweetrobin to die. If he can be replaced with a new child heir in Littlefinger's control.

So while there would be angsty potential, there is very little logic in the idea that Littlefinger actively wants Sweetrobin to die any time soon. He just wants the idea to be firmly established as an expectation, because it increases Harry's importance and reduces doubt if/when he actually does die.

Besides, Littlefinger has already trapped Sansa in a dangerous lie. Testifying that Marillion killed Lysa is Sansa's darkest act by far, hands down, in the entire book series, and while we understand her motivations and are privy to her inner conflict, from the outside it makes her look like she went from kingslaying Joffrey to conspiring to kill the leader of the Vale (kinslaying her aunt!) all in a, what, span of a few months? If Littlefinger really wanted to milk it, he could bring up how she came to Cersei when Ned wanted to send her away from KL. Then he could bring up her "complicity" in trying to poison Sweetrobin.

He could gently imply his ability to ruin her reputation far worse than Jaime's, and make Sansa feel like she earned it. She already feels guilt over Marillion. Even though he was a rapist actively helping Lysa try to kill her. Sweetrobin doesn't have to die for Sansa to struggle with the consequences of her choices.

Also: In what universe has Sansa had it easy in the narrative? Being beaten, molested and forced into marriage, used as a tool for murder? She is the Stark with the absolute least amount of personal agency. And still where she has the opportunity, she usually chooses to help, to be compassionate, even to her enemies. She downright berates herself for it. That contrast to Arya and Bran is not a narrative "easy" path, it is an expression of her character and a different angle on enduring hardship. Sansa is not less of a character for being a good person. It is not easy. It is hard. And worthy.

Making hard choices will be part of Sansa's path, but neither does she artificially have to match the darkness of Arya's violent path, nor does Sweetrobin have to die to make it happen.

#Vale arc #sansa stark #Sweetrobin #Littlefinger #Sweetrobin lives #harry the heir #marriage annullment #Marillion #dark mentor #dark path

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weirwoodking · 4 years ago

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who do you think will be on the throne at the end? is there a chance it will be a woman? do you agree with the theory that bran will be king in the north bc he symbolizes winterfell? idk if i see dany on the throne bc i don't feel like she belongs in westeros, i think she would be better off with a throne on the other side of the narrow sea but i really don't know what i'm saying

It’s very hard to make predictions for ADOS, because we don’t have TWOW yet. So much can change about the story and the characters in one book, thematically and narratively. Think of how much the plot was influenced by just that final Bran chapter in ADWD.

But, here I go anyway.

My short answer is: no one. (And no, I don’t mean Arya)

Let’s get into it.

Part 1: How the Show Tainted Everyone’s Brains

Obviously, a lot of people care about the Iron Throne plot. Sometimes too much. I do believe that this is mostly because of how much the HBO show changed everything about the story to make the Iron Throne seem like it was more important than anything else. Like promotional posters of all the actors each sitting on the throne, the name of the series itself being changed to “Game of Thrones”, actors getting asked in every interview “who do you think should get the Iron Throne?” as if it’s the last cupcake at a birthday party that everyone’s fighting over, the final episode was titled “The Iron Throne”. The marketing for everything was “it’s the fight for the Throne!” up through the eighth season. It made the object itself become a huge pop culture symbol.

It almost felt like the show was trying to make it seem like the goal of the Night King (a character not in the books) was to sit on the Iron Throne! The show portrayed it as if the Others were just a little distraction that needed to be dealt with so the characters could get back to arguing over the Porcupine Chair. However, in ASOIAF, it’s the exact opposite. The Porcupine Chair is what’s distracting the characters from the real conflict, the Others.

It’s almost comical how that has somewhat transferred over into the fandom, the “game of thrones” is what’s keeping everyone from focusing on what really matters, the “song of ice and fire”.

Part 2: GRRM’s Quote

It wasn't easy for me. I didn't want to give away my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and "hold the door", and Stannis' decision to burn his daughter. We didn't get to everybody by any means.

-George R.R. Martin

So, he “told them who would be on the Iron Throne”. Something important about this quote is that he doesn’t say who. And, of course, the Iron Throne gets destroyed at the end of the show anyway. Show!Bran doesn’t really “end up on the Iron Throne”. Show!Dany does. George never said that who “ends up” on it in the books is who ends up on it in the show. He’s said that the Shireen thing and the Hodor thing will “happen very differently” in the books anyway. And, of course, another major part of that quote is “every character has a different end”.

I don’t think that who sits the Iron Throne last is necessarily going to be the ruler of Westeros at the end. For example, Cersei (or Aegon) may be the last person to sit the Iron Throne. Or even Euron (however, even though his goal is to rule post-apocalyptic Westeros as a god from the Iron Throne, I don’t think he’ll actually get there). If wildfire is hot enough to melt iron, I could see the throne being destroyed during whatever fiery shenanigans go down with Cersei and JonCon in TWOW. I think it would be fitting for the fight over the throne to end in the next book. ‘Cause the winds of winter are coming, baby, and it’s gonna be time to start dreaming of spring.

Part 3: The Weirwood King

The idea/theory of Bran becoming King has been around for a long time, long before the HBO show even started airing. This is because of the Celtic myth of King Brân the Blessed, whose name means “Blessed Crow” or “Blessed Raven” in Welsh. Other than the obvious connection with the name, Brân the Blessed’s story involves a magic cauldron that can bring the dead back to life.

In the myth, Brân’s head is cut off and continues talking (think of how Bran’s most powerful aspect is the magical powers of his mind), because in Celtic mythology the head is believed to be where the soul is.

Celts had a reputation as head hunters. According to Paul Jacobsthal, "Amongst the Celts the human head was venerated above all else, since the head was to the Celt the soul, centre of the emotions as well as of life itself, a symbol of divinity and of the powers of the otherworld." (source)

Catch that? “Otherworld”. There is another myth (Irish, specifically) called the Voyage of Bran, in which the title character goes on a quest to the Otherworld. The Otherworld is a supernatural realm in Celtic mythology. It is also where the sidhe (a.k.a. aos sí) live. Remember, the sidhe are what George has said the Others are inspired by. In Irish mythology, the Otherworld is called Tír na nÓg, Mag Mell and Emain Ablach, in Welsh mythology it’s called Annwn, and in Arthurian legend it’s called Avalon. Fun fact, “Avalon” was the title of the novel George was writing when he had suddenly had the idea of a scene in which a young boy and his brothers see a beheading and then find a litter of direwolf pups in the snow. And so ASOIAF happened.

I’ll leave that there, and try not to go down the great big rabbit-hole of Celtic (and other cultures) mythology connections in ASOIAF. The takeaway is: ASOIAF has been influenced by these myths.

I do believe that Bran is going to be King. Not just because of his ties to this mythology, but also because of symbolism in his own story. The most notable one being…

Under the hill, the broken boy sat upon a weirwood throne, listening to whispers in the dark as ravens walked up and down his arms.

[...]

The singers made Bran a throne of his own, like the one Lord Brynden sat, white weirwood flecked with red, dead branches woven through living roots.

[...]

His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child.

- Bran III, A Dance with Dragons

Bran is also the only one of the Stark kids who still thinks of himself as royalty:

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins.

- Bran III, A Dance with Dragons

Bran is the heir to Winterfell. It doesn’t matter if Robb named Jon his heir in his will, the will was written under the pretense that Bran and Rickon were dead.

However, Bran doesn’t have any connection to the Iron Throne. It’s far more likely that he would sit on a weirwood throne, because of, y’know, everything about his story. So, if Bran was King of the Seven Kingdoms, I don’t think it would be on the Pincushion Stool.

If Bran is king of the realm, I do think there would still be a separate Lord/Lady of Winterfell, but I do think that there’s a possibility of a Pevensie siblings ending, where all the Stark kids would rule together as the Lords and Ladies and Winterfell.

Something that I’ve never really seen talked about regarding the idea of Bran becoming King of the Seven Kingdoms is the religious differences between the North and the southern regions of Westeros. Of course, the show didn’t deal with this at all. For fuck’s sake, they had Cersei blow up the Westerosi verison of the Vatican and face no backlash. It was so laughably absurd how Show!Cersei’s destructive reign was shown to have like… zero impact on the Seven Kingdoms.

In short, I’m not too sure that the Kingdom who is majority Faith of the Seven worshippers would react too well to a weirwood-tree-Old-Gods-warg-wizard-king. I mean, when Janos Slynt finds out Jon is a warg he calls him a “thing”, a “creature”, and a “beastling that is not fit to live”, and wanted to execute him not just for being a turncloak but for being a warg as well. And Jojen warns Bran of these things, saying that his own folk may want to kill him if they know what he is.

But… all of that anti-magic attitude might not matter after night falls.

Part 4: Winter is Coming

I believe that the Long Night is going to be very devastating for the Seven Kingdoms.

Martin is a big believer in making things have meaningful, permanent consequences in his stories. I don’t think that an apocalyptic event like the Long Night is something that’s just gonna get dealt with in a quick snap and have no lasting effect.

A lot of people are going to die. I don’t mean main characters, I mean people that would not survive a normal winter and sure as hell won’t be prepared for this one. Westeros’s food stores have been severely depleted by the War of the Five Kings, and we’ve been told multiple times in the text (particularly AFFC and ADWD) that feeding people during this winter is going to be extremely hard.

Besides that… the whole, uh, invasion of the eldritch ice beings thing might have a bit of an impact on the realm.

I won’t go into depth about how the Seven Kingdoms will be affected by the Long Night, ‘cause we really have no idea. But, however it all goes down, I do think it will have lasting changes for the people of Westeros. The impact that it leaves may make the concept of Bran being a wizard-king more acceptable. “Oh, well we’ve just seen zombies and winter elves, so what’s too surprising about a magical greenseer warg king?” I think that Westerosi culture becoming more aware and accepting of the existence of magic is the only way that Bran could become the king of the whole realm. The Westeros at the end of the series is not going to be the place that it was at the beginning.

Part 5: Dany: A Home, Not a Throne

To sum up my thoughts on our dragon girl, I don’t think Dany will end up on the Spiky Toilet. I don’t want Dany to be on the Spiky Toilet.

Now, my personal speculation (which a lot of people disagree with, which is fine) is that Dany will never see King’s Landing before the Long Night. I personally don’t think that Dany will ever meet Aegon or Cersei. I don’t see there being enough time in the story for that. Yes, GRRM said that there will be a second Dance of the Dragons, but he also said that the second Dance does not have to involve Dany. He may have originally planned for it to be Aegon and Dany, but probably not once the Meereenese Knot happened.

The Meereenese Knot is what Dany’s ADWD plot is referred to as. GRRM did not intend for Dany to stay in Meereen as long as she has, but because of his “gardener” style of writing, that’s where the story led him. GRRM has said that one of the hardest parts of writing the Meereen plotline (which involves Dany, Barristan, Quentyn, Tyrion, and Victarion) is trying to find a way to cut the plot knot he accidentally got himself stuck in. He has said that Tyrion and Dany will meet towards the end of TWOW, which means that Dany will most likely be spending a large portion of her story with the Dothraki. That part is a completely blank page, but I believe that Dany will meet Tyrion possibly ¾ of the way into the book, and sail for Westeros at the end.

I won’t write a full meta about this here (because that’s not what this post is about), but to summarize my prediction: Aegon VS Cersei is going to be the battle in King’s Landing, a battle which will destroy the city. Dany (who has already rejected sailing for the Throne multiple times) will still be stuck in Essos, dealing with everything she’s still got going on, and will sail for Westeros at the end. Not for the Throne, but to go North for the real fight (remember that Marwyn is also on his way to Meereen to tell Dany that they need her).

Because Dany's purpose is not to fight for the Iron Throne, it’s to fight the Others. Dany (fire, light, and life) VS the Others (ice, darkness, and death) is the main thing the title refers to:

“Well of course the two outlying ones, the things that are going on north of the Wall and Daenerys Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons are of course the Ice and Fire of the title, the Song of Ice and Fire.”

- George R.R. Martin, 2016

One of the most important excerpts that shows us where Dany’s story is headed is this:

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

- Daenerys III, A Storm a Swords

Dany has a short prophetic “this is what I was meant to do” dream. Dany could possibly have more dreams about the Others in TWOW, visions that will make what Marwyn has to tell her more believable. It’s not like that dream was the only one Dany has had that alludes to the winter threat, Dany has had visions about this since book one:

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

- Dany IX, A Game of Thrones

Anyway, there’s just a lot more foreshadowing in the plot that this is what Dany is meant to do. I think adding in another conflict into her story once she leaves Meereen would make the story feel bloated and would severely fuck up the pacing.

I don’t think Dany will ever see the Iron Throne. The themes of her story have never been about her wanting the Iron Throne for what it is, but for what it represents to her. It represents the possibility of a home and of feeling safe for the first time in her life, what Dany truly wants. I think that it’s absolutely fine if Dany never sees the Throne or sits on it, and that it makes more sense for her narrative arc if she discovers that she can find a home somewhere else, not necessarily where she thought it would be.

Part 6: Final Thoughts

So, in conclusion, I don’t really give a shit who ends up placing their ass on the Forbidden Laz-E-Boy, I care about the War for the Dawn. I care about seeing the characters I’ve followed for the past five books coming together to fight the real conflict of A Song of Ice and Fire. Also, even if we do get a Scouring of the Shire-type post-climax for ASOIAF, it doesn’t matter. People don’t see the Scouring of the Shire as the climax of Lord of the Rings, they see the climax as Aragorn leading the forces of good against the forces of evil and Frodo and Sam throwing the One Ring into Mount Doom. Whatever ending resolution comes after the climax of ASOIAF, it doesn’t change what the climax is.

"Do you think your brother's war is more important than ours?" the old man barked.

Jon chewed his lip. The raven flapped its wings at him. "War, war, war, war," it sang.

"It's not," Mormont told him. "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"

"No." Jon had not thought of it that way.

- Jon IX, A Game of Thrones

TL;DR:

My prediction: Cersei will be the last person to sit the Iron Throne, which will be destroyed in the Wildfire of King’s Landing. After the Long Night devastates the Seven Kingdoms, Bran will become the King of this new Westeros that has been majorly affected by the return of magic. Also, it would be real nice if Dany found her red door.

God I hope my rambling made sense

#sorry that this took me over a week to answer #ask #anon #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #long post

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intrepid-fictioneer-7 · 6 years ago

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On Whether the Books of A Song of Ice and Fire Will Have the Same Ending As the TV Show Game of Thrones

No.

Or rather, maybe, maybe not.

Seriously, we have no actual way to tell. For years, even before Season 8, many loved to proclaim, especially smugly if said to book readers that came to dislike GoT, that the show will obviously have the real ending out before the books ever finish, because GRRM told the showrunners the details of everything and how it will end in case the show overtook the books. And so you, the one critical of the show, will have to resign yourself that you will only get to see the canonical ending through the show.

And then the post-Season 3 changes piled up way too much for the showverse looking much like the books, reassuring the readers that the show had clearly become its own thing. And then Season 7 and Season 8 rolled around, and book readers felt vindicated, while show viewers were disappointed, saddened, or angry at how yet another the most popular show on television ended so badly.

Nowadays, not many still hold the old belief, most hoping that GRRM do something different. But many others still believe the endings will be the same, if only not with joy but with resignation this time.

After all, say some, didn't Isaac Hempstead Wright just confirm King Bran was a future plot development that GRRM told D&D? Making it one of the 3 twists GRRM told D&D (“three holy sh— moments” to quote them) that will definitely make it into the books, the other being Shireen's burning and Hodor's origin? Meaning many if not most things from the show's final season and ending will end up in the books?

I personally don't think so. Of course, the exact same ending has always been an unbelievable hyperbole, but even thinking most major plot points will be the same has me in doubts. As said earlier, a lot of storylines have been completely changed to the point that they are unrecognizable. Sansa's for example is vastly different from her show counterpart's due to taking another character's role and removing the central elements of her Vale storyline (notably Harry the Heir). The plotline of Aegon and the Golden Company has been completely cut when it would necessarily affect many major and minor characters. Arianne was cut and the Dorne storylines were butchered beyond recognition. The show created the character of the Night King.

So much has changed between the two, stating that the endings will share similar beats would be the same as saying the MCU's Infinity War/Endgame duology/pseudo-finale is the same ending as the ending to the Marvel comics' Infinity Gauntlet storyline simply because in both the Snap is undone. Which is ridiculous: both worlds have changed far too much for one to simply be a copy-paste of the other anymore.

The show and the books have become two completely separate universes, a "Westeros 1" and a "Westeros 2", as Bryan Cogman put it.

But what also makes me doubt are the dubious statements on the ending. So I have compiled many quotes on the ending of the series, from GRRM and D&D, to show just how not so clear-cut it is.

It should be noted that, as far as I can see, only Benioff really implied the ending would be the same:

Luckily, we’ve been talking about this with George for a long time, ever since we saw this could happen, and we know where things are heading. And so we’ll eventually, basically, meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going; there might be a few deviations along the route, but we’re heading towards the same destination. I kind of wish that there were some things we didn’t have to spoil, but we’re kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. The show must go on […] and that’s what we’re going to do. I think the thing that's kind of fun for George is the idea that he can still have surprises for people even once they've watched the show through to the conclusion. There are certain things that are going to happen in the books that are different in the show, and I think people who love the show and want more—want to know more about the characters, want to know more about the different characters who might not have made the cut for the show—will be able to turn to the books. So that's where we stand.

—David Benioff (x)

And even then there are caveats about there being differences.

There is even more circumspection about the two endings in other interviews:

You’re now at a point where you’ve caught up with the books. What does that mean for the future? Benioff: [...] We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it. Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it. Weiss: It’s like looking at a landscape and saying, “OK, there’s a mountain over there, and I know that I’m getting to that mountain.” There’s an event that’s going to happen, and I know that I’m moving in the general direction of that event, but what’s between where I’m standing now and that thing off on the horizon, I’m not totally sure. I’ll know when I get there, and then I’ll see what the terrain looks like around me and I’ll choose my path once I get closer to it. He figures a lot of this stuff as he goes. He always says he’s a gardener, not an architect.

(x)

Benioff and Weiss always knew this would happen. So they met with the novelist in 2013, between Seasons 2 and 3, to sketch out what Martin calls “the ultimate developments” after the books and show diverge. The upshot, they say, is that the two can coexist. “Certain things that we learned from George way back then are going to happen on the show, but certain things won’t,” says Benioff. “And there’s certain things where George didn’t know what was going to happen, so we’re going to find them out for the first time too.”

(x)

From George himself, I have only ever seen more nuanced and ambiguous statements about the books' ending vs. the show's:

Let me reiterate what I have said before. How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? Three, in the novel. One, in the movie. None, in real life: she was a fictional character, she never existed. The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story. There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes. HBO is more than forty hours into the impossible and demanding task of adapting my lengthy (extremely) and complex (exceedingly) novels, with their layers of plots and subplots, their twists and contradictions and unreliable narrators, viewpoint shifts and ambiguities, and a cast of characters in the hundreds. There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large (if you doubt that, talk to the Harry Dresden fans, or readers of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or the fans of the original WALKING DEAD comic books)... but the longer the show goes on, the bigger the butterflies become. And now we have reached the point where the beat of butterfly wings is stirring up storms, like the one presently engulfing my email. Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements. David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can. And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can. And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place. In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.

—GRRM (x)

So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so. IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN ALL FIVE SEASONS AND READ ALL FIVE BOOKS, STOP HERE! Just consider. Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Pyp, Grenn, Ser Barristan Selmy, Queen Selyse, Princess Shireen, Princess Myrcella, Mance Rayder, and King Stannis are all dead in the show, alive in the books. Some of them will die in the books as well, yes... but not all of them, and some may die at different times in different ways. Balon Greyjoy, on the flip side, is dead in the books, alive on the show. His brothers Euron Crow's Eye and Victarion have not yet been introduced (will they appear? I ain't saying). Meanwhile Jhiqui, Aggo, Jhogo, Jeyne Poole, Dalla (and her child) and her sister Val, Princess Arianne Martell, Prince Quentyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Lord Wyman Manderly, the Shavepate, the Green Grace, Brown Ben Plumm, the Tattered Prince, Pretty Meris, Bloodbeard, Griff and Young Griff, and many more have never been part of the show, yet remain characters in the books. Several are viewpoint characters, and even those who are not may have significant roles in the story to come in THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING.

GAME OF THRONES is the most popular television series in the world right now. The most pirated as well. It just won a record number of Emmy Awards, including the ultimate prize, for the best drama on television. It's an incredible production with an incredible cast and crew.

WINDS OF WINTER should be pretty good too, when it comes out. As good as I can make it, anyway. Which is a long way of saying, "How may children did Scarlett O'Hara have?" Enjoy the show. Enjoy the books.

—GRRM (x)

WINDS will be different in some ways, but will parallel the show in others. At this point, there are probably a dozen characters who are dead on the show but alive in the books, so it would be impossible for the two to remain the same. (Also, of course, there are characters in the books who have never even existed on the show, like Victarion Greyjoy, Jon Connington, Penny, Arianne Martell... )

—GRRM (x)

The showrunners note that they’re not entirely sure of Martin’s future storylines anyway (“George discovers a lot of stuff while he’s writing,” Benioff says). But more surprising is that Martin is likewise somewhat in the dark on the show’s ending. “I haven’t read the [final-season] scripts and haven’t been able to visit the set because I’ve been working on Winds,” Martin reveals. “I know some of the things. But there’s a lot of minor-character [arcs] they’ll be coming up with on their own. And, of course, they passed me several years ago. There may be important discrepancies.”

(x)

Benioff and Weiss had to carve their own course for the past couple of seasons, after outpacing Martin’s writing. “I’ve been so slow with these books,” Martin says, with palpable pain. “The major points of the ending will be things I told them five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added.”

(x)

Anderson Cooper: When it clear they were catching up, you told them over-- a kind of an overarching future of where you saw the-- the last two books going in terms of plot? George R.R. Martin: Yes. And, you know, the major beats. I mean, obviously, we're talking here about a-- several days of story conferences taking place in my home in Santa Fe, New Mexico. But there's no way to get in all the detail, all the minor characters, all the secondary characters. The series has-- has-- been extremely faithful, compared to 97 percent of all television and movie adaptations of literary properties. But it's not completely faithful. And-- and it can't be. Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons. Anderson Cooper: And in essence, what's-- by the time the series is finished and your other two books are finished, y-- essentially it's gonna be two se-- different-- George R.R. Martin: Yeah. Anderson Cooper: Two different versions. George R.R. Martin: But, you know, I think that's true of every adaptation. We got all these Spidermen. Is it Stan Lee's Spiderman from the comic books? They're-- they're similar, but they're also different. Things happen to one that never happen to the other. Things are resolved differently. The girlfriends are shuffled and reshuffled. The-- the primary beats are there, the character is there, but it's a question of-- what are the choices you make to tell the story, which are partially dictated by your-- your medium. Anderson Cooper: I mean, do you worry that some fans will have Dan and David's ending in-- in their mind's eye? Would that-- would that-- you know, would that be a disappointment to you? George R.R. Martin: I don't think Dan and Dave's ending is gonna be that different from my ending because of the conversations we-- we did have. But they may be on certain secondary characters, there may be big differences. And, yeah, some of the people will have that. There will be a debate, I'm sure. I think a lot of people, who-- say, "Oh, Dan and Dave's ending is better than the one George gave us. It's a good thing they changed it." And there will be a lot of people who say, "No. Dan and Dave got it wrong. George's ending is better." And they will all fight on the internet. And there will be debate. And-- that's fine. I mean, it-- you know, the worst thing for any work of art, be it a movie or a book is to be ignored. (LAUGH)

(x)

How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different? Well… yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had six hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one. There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort… Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have? How about this? I’ll write it. You read it. Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.

—GRRM (x)

There is a general sense that things may be subject to change and that the ending, besides certain points, is not set in stone. Definitely not the certain "same ending" some say it will be.

We will also recall that, as mentioned in some of the quotes above, in an interview with The Guardian in 2011, GRRM described himself as a "gardener" type of writer who works out the story as he goes, as opposed to an "architect," who plots out all the details ahead of time, a characteristic which may also play out in changes in the ending notes he gave D&D ("George discovers a lot of stuff while he’s writing"). We can see this in how, for example, he came up recently with a big twist about a non-show character while writing Winds.

So I hope, in having written all this, that I have given some hope to the most pessimistic about the series' end, because I have seen many, especially in light of how the show wrote Daenerys, decide to repudiate the book series and accuse GRRM of what D&D did. While I want to make clear that I don't think GRRM is flawless, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt based on his strong writing throughout the books series, so that at the very least he be judged on his own merits and own faults whenever Winds (tentatively 2020?) and Dream come out. I urge people to not conflate GRRM and D&D.

And most importantly:

Q: "Early on, one critic described the TV series as bleak and embodying a nihilistic worldview, another bemoaned its “lack of moral signposts.” Have you ever worried that there’s some validity to that criticism?"

GRRM: "No. That particular criticism is completely invalid. Actually, I think it’s moronic. My worldview is anything but nihilistic."

(x)

The number one question people ask me about the series is whether I think everyone will lose—whether it will end in some horrible apocalypse. I know you can’t speak to that specifically, but as a revisionist of epic fantasy—  GRRM: I haven’t written the ending yet, so I don’t know, but no. That’s certainly not my intent. I’ve said before that the tone of the ending that I’m going for is bittersweet. I mean, it’s no secret that Tolkien has been a huge influence on me, and I love the way he ended Lord of the Rings. It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire—brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: “Why is this here? The story’s over?” But every time I read it I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.

[...]

I think you need to have some hope…we all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending. People ask me how Game of Thrones is gonna end, and I’m not gonna tell them … but I always say to expect something bittersweet in the end,” he said. “You can’t just fulfill a quest and then pretend life is perfect.

(x)

I urge my readers to have some hope. I know I will.

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7deadlycinderellas · 5 years ago

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If the summer of lives could just come again, ch16

A03 link

Over the Wall

Several moons into that year, Rowan stills in the middle of a sentence, and quietly says,

“I think we have a visitor.”

The visitor, causing Jon’s heart to leap into his throat with joy, turns out to be Ghost. Ghost, dragging a dead doe at that. Ygritte attacks the dead animal with a knife and gusto, and they all eat terribly well for several days, Jon scratching Ghost under the muzzle and feeding him the best bits.

And Ghost is excellent for making the caves warmer at night. Sometimes, he even lets them use him as a pillow.

He even allows Ygritte to do it. She pets his head idly.

One night, when Jon is resting his head on the opposite side of him she is, Ygritte quietly asks him.

“I suppose it would never have worked out. We’re just too different.”

Jon doesn’t respond, but it doesn’t really feel like a question.

“I wanted to see over the wall. I’d wanted that since I was a little girl. We saw it together. But it wasn’t enough. You still left me for them.”

“I did swear a vow.”

Ygritte exhales loudly.

“How long were you a crow?”

Jon thinks back, remembering when he took his vow, and the start of the great ranging.

“A little over a year.”

“Do you think any of them are still looking for you?”

Jon feels his insides twist. Sam, Sam would never quit, but he could be overcome. Commander Mormont, he would never willingly leave a man behind. Pyp and Grenn…

“Maybe a few...but I suppose most of them must think I’m dead.”

Ygritte’s silent for a long time, and eventually it’s Jon who breaks it again.

“Once whatever this is is done, I can take you over the wall again. I can show you the south.”

Ygritte sounds half asleep when she responds with,

“That better be a promise.”

Gilly and the other women spend the days up and about, marking on bits of parchment.

“None of us learned to read,” Gilly tells him, “But Rowan wants us to help her map the caves down here, and I can draw well enough.”

Mapping the caves is just one of the things Rowan does. Her and the others occasionally disappear for half a day, gathering something or another.

In the early days, she led him to the heart of the cave, where the corpse of the old weirwood lay, and where Rowan had planted the bulb of a new seedling.

“This was what I was traveling further south for, to find this little babe of a tree,” she tells them, gently petting the turned earth where it will reach upward for the sun.

Jon reaches into his jumbled memories of his last night with the others.

“My brother...he said the three-eyed Raven taught him to see through the weirwoods.”

Rowan nods.

“We fed him from the seeds of the weirwoods, and that allowed him to see through their wood. It was a poor choice.”

Jon tries to imagine Bran, who seems so small, so young, in his memory.

“You said because he was a child.”

Rowan shakes her head softly.

“Not just that. He was a human, and humans cannot carry the weight of the power these centuries old trunks bear. Even the humans gifted with what you call greensight are often afflicted with illness by it.”

Jon watches Rowan stand, and touch the dead roots.

“My name is not truly Rowan. The common tongue has no word so specific for the sound a rowan tree makes when caught in a summer storm. But our language does. We call it the True Tongue. This is the tongue shared by the children of the forest, the plants and animals and the soil of the earth.”

She looks at Jon, gently, like a grandmother might.

“The only human who is said to have ever understood the True Tongue was your ancestor Bran the Builder. He knew how to listen. This is what makes you special Jon Snow, you can speak, and you cal listen. I’m not going to teach you to see through the weirwoods, I’m going to teach you to talk to them.”

King’s Landing

It’s just a normal, clear, sunny-but-cold day when Sansa touches Lady on the neck and slips into her skin.

She creeps through the Red Keep, quiet as a septa, neat as a maid, not even drawing the attention of a mouse.

Not even when she winds up outside the Small Council chambers. She doesn’t linger, doesn’t want to jinx this whole thing. Stannis and Renly have both lingered, seemingly lacking will to leave their brother’s side, even as their feuds rear their heads every other day.

It really does incense Sansa sometimes. Was this was raising her and Arya had been like, she wondered. Did Father and Mother fear that they would still be quarreling well into womanhood?

“It makes me sad,” Shireen had told her one day, out in the garden, The flowers had been dusted with snow, their petals beginning to wilt.

“Do you like living with your uncle?” Sansa had asked.

Shireen nods,

“He doesn’t pay a ton of attention to me, but he’s always light-hearted and up for a laugh. Father always went on and on about how irresponsible he was, but he’s always made sure I ate and went to my lessons…”

The younger girl trails off. Sansa had seen her speak kindly with Renly, and seemed happy spending time under Brienne’s guard, but she also saw the whisper of homesickness in her.

She recognizes it with ease, having gone through plenty.

It is Shireen she thinks of while Lady watches Renly attempt to defend his current lack of heirs.

It isn’t fair, not really, Sansa thinks to herself. She remembers the first day at court, when she’d caught a glimpse of Renly holding Loras Tyrell’s elbow that the truth had struck her like a lightning bolt.

Even Shireen had seen it, it seemed.

“I don’t think he likes ladies, well not like other men do,” Shireen had told her in confidence, “He was always quite kind to Lady Brienne, and many men can’t even muster that.”

But still, it was his house duty, she thought. And Stannis, on the other hand, could always be counted on to do his duty. Which must be why he’s here tending to his brother, even as he’s shouted and raged at on the regular.

She’s seen no sign of the red woman, to her relief.

She pulls herself out of Lady, when she hears someone call her name.

The voice turns out to be that of Lady Margaery, flanked behind by many of her own ladies. She is in the garden again, and Margaery is extending her hand to her.

“My apologies, my lady,” Sansa tells her, moving to lift her skirts and stand, “I’m afraid I was somewhere else for a bit there.”

“No offense taken, Lady Sansa,” Margaery replies, her smile seeming natural, though somehow still somehow painted on. “I was merely hoping to invite you to have tea with my grandmother and I.”

Sansa smiles, and allows herself to be lead.

She would be lying if she said she hadn��t been looking forward to see the old Queen of Thorns again. As the years had gone by, her appreciation of the acid tongue matriarch had only increased, along with her confusion as to her motives.

“Lady Tyrell,” she says, “It’s an honor.”

“Oh, dispense with the arse-kissing if you would, I feel I’ve had more than my share being back in this city.”

Yes, that was the Olenna Tyrell that Sansa remembered. She offers her wine and cheese, and she takes lightly of both.

“So,” Sansa starts, finishing a bit of soft goat cheese, licking her thumb, “is this just for pleasure, or did the two of you want something from me?”

The older woman nodded to herself, though it was her granddaughter who spoke up first.

“Well, you have lived here in the Red Keep for far longer than we have been at court. I imagine you’ve noticed my courtship of Prince Joffrey-”

As if anyone could miss it. Margaery was not subtle when she wanted people to notice her. As she called it ‘her courtship’, which she couldn’t imagine most proper ladies doing.

“-and I was hoping you might tell me about him. He has seemed gracious and gallant to me, but I imagine you know as I do, that men have the same carefully constructed masks we women do.”

“And we would like some insight,” Olenna interrupts, “Into why you, a lovely young maid yourself, seem to have no interest in him yourself.”

Sansa snorts softly, then meters her voice very carefully.

“Because he’s a jackarse that’s why. Met him years ago back home in Winterfell, first thing he did was insult my little sister.”

Her voice is casual, light.

“He likes to slap around his younger brother and sister too. I’ve seen him leave nasty bruises on both. “

Only a small fib. Myrcella had once confessed to Sansa that Joffrey hadn’t hit her since she had learned to stop reacting.

“Both of his uncles give him hell about it. I saw Lord Tyrion slap him once for a comment he made about my crippled younger brother. I’m rather fond of all of them, so I take their words over his. You have siblings, my lady, you must understand.”

At some point, Lady has quietly padded her way into the gardens, and sits by Sansa’s side. She pets the wolf on her head.

“And I am very thankful that Lady here hasn’t even caught his eye, if what poor Tommen said happened to his cat wasn’t just a tantrum.”

If he had ever tried it, Sansa thought, she’s not sure she would have stopped Lady from tearing his throat out this time.

Olenna snorts in response to her words though.

“If you’re assessment of the prince is accurate, than I wonder why wouldn’t tried to dissuade us.”

Sansa shrugs carefully, before meeting Margaery’s eye.

“If you think you can handle it, then who am I to tell you what to do? But you should be aware of what you’re getting into. Not just the prince, the Queen is a whole hornet’s nest herself.”

Sansa feels vaguely trapped inside. This whole game, the politics and the alliances. She had grown good at it, she knows, but she’s become so disdainful of it.

After she finishes her cup of sweet wine, she spies Tyrion walking into the garden and sitting at one of the tables they often played cyvasse on.

“If you’ll excuse my early exit, “ she tells Lady Olenna, standing and brushing off her dress, “Lord Tyrion beat me at cyvasse three days ago, and I believe I am owed a rematch.”

When she approaches the table, she notes Tyrion watching her out of the corner of his eye.

“Tired already of more quality company than me?”

Sansa shakes her head.

“Tired of being used as an unwitting informant.”

Tyrion raises an eyebrow. He has the cyvasse pieces out, and is playing with them idly, though not setting them up properly.

“Seeking advice for the courtship of my dear nephew?”

Sansa smiles wryly. She glances back over at where Margaery sits, with her immaculate hair and gown. Tyrion interrupts her gaze.

“Seemed there was a time you would have wanted the exact place she is in now.”

Sansa laughs bitterly.

“I did. And that wish got me nothing but heartache, abuse and suffering. I was stupid. A stupid little girl with stupid dreams who learned too slowly to even protect herself from her own mistakes.“

Thinking of her younger self, how blind and easily led she had been, nearly makes her want to retch. She shakes the memory off, as she moves to set the cyvasse pieces up. They play nearly in silence until the sun is no longer high in the sky.

“Is it so awful though?” Sansa asks, breaking the silence, in an unusually small voice, “To want to be loved, to want it so much that you let yourself be blinded?”

“No,” Tyrion replies, fiercely, “I don’t think it’s awful at all. Everyone wants to be loved, even if no one admits it. And in my experience, it’s made a great many men and women commit very foolish acts.”

She won’t say to him, won’t admit even to herself, that she’s even sure she would know love anymore. That if it weren’t for her sister, she wouldn’t even be sure if she believed in it anymore.

There’s a flush over their conversation, and Sansa feels a strange warmth bloom in her chest. One she might recognize, if she reached far enough back in her memory.

It’s interrupted, when her father approaches, telling her it’s time for supper.

It’s a simple potato and leek soup tonight, rich with cream and brightened bacon. Over it, Sansa hopes her father won’t bring up the subject she’s been avoiding since they arrived here nearly three years ago.

“You seem quite fond of Lord Tyrion,” he begins, “Any particular reason why?”

Sansa nods softly. She no longer thinks there’s a point in hiding this.

“He was my first husband.”

Ned stares, seeming not to know which word to latch onto. Sansa chuckles. It’s really ridiculous in hindsight.

“It was Tywin Lannister’s handiwork, meant to keep control of the North. We both objected loudly, but didn’t have a leg to stand on to refuse, but we tried to be kind to each other at least.”

She swallows, bitterly.

“I was fourteen, and in retrospect, our complete farce of a marriage was the closest thing to a reprieve I had while I was stuck here, and then…” she trails off, still unsure how to explain the next part, “I didn’t see him for nearly four years, but when we saw each other again, it was the strangest thing...it was almost like we were friends.”

Ned finally cuts her off, with a question.

“You said he was your first-”

Sansa ducks her head, so he will not see her face.

“My second was Ramsey Bolton. He was...not kind.

Ned’s expression of horror is all she needs. She shakes her head roughly again, changing the subject as fast as she can before more questions come.

“Anything new with the council today?”

“Stannis got a raven from the Wall,”

That gets Sansa’s complete attention.

“Who’s in charge now?”

“Alliser Thorne,”

She groans internally. Jon’s words on the man had not been kind. Not that Jon was even there now.

“He’s asking for more men, because wildlings have been attacking the outposts regularly. They sent them to all the Lords.”

Sansa rubs her forehead.

“And of course, Stannis is the only one to take the request seriously.”

Sansa wishes Shireen’s death wasn’t such a black mark on Stannis’s life. That his willingness to follow Melisandre so fanatically hadn’t besmirched him so. He was one of the only men in Westeros who truly seemed to consider the needs of the Realm.

Even before that, she muses, he also killed his own brother, so maybe she was being too generous.

Stannis’s actions end up being overshadowed anyhow.

It’s the middle of the year when Balon Greyjoy dies.

Sansa groans deeply when she learns. This is going to be a mess. She doubts Yara will be able to gather any sort of support without Theon to back her up, so somehow she thinks Euron will end up in charge again. She sends a raven, one of Bran’s that she’s been letting rest on a perch in her chambers and rest, back to Winterfell to try and see if Theon had said anything on the matter at all.

Theon had kept Balon in line, but she doubts Euron has any sort of similar loyalty.

It distracts her though, and she blames that distraction for why she lets someone sneak up on her early the next morning, when she’s down at the training yard.

Thankfully, it’s just Brienne.

“Didn’t take you for an archer, my lady.”

Sansa shrugs her off,

“It’s just for fun. Daughter of one of my father’s friends was a great archer. I thought she looked so elegant doing it. So I asked her to teach me.”

Elegant is pushing it. Sansa might describe Meera in her element as having a sort of wild grace, but she’s not sure she would ever call it elegance. But she is a young woman, with thoughts only of gowns and games, and so she admires elegance.

“For fun? Pulling a longbow takes nearly a hundred pounds of force.”

Sansa laughs, trying to sound blithe. She looses her arrow, and hits the target she has set up. It hits close to the edge, but it’s set further away than she’s set them before.

“You’re assigned to guard Lady Shireen, right? Is she about already?”

Brienne shakes her head.

“The girl is a bit of a late sleeper, and I felt the need for some early morning air before resuming my duties.”

Sansa sets down her bow and sits on one of the brick columns that line the ends of the walkway.

“How is she? I remember when I came here for the first time, I felt so alone.”

“She is..coping. Like she always has. She didn’t have many other young people for friends in Storm’s End, or from her stories, before either.”

Brienne frowns as she continues speaking.

“I fear she may always feel out of place just because of how she looks. I feel coming here, with all the power and attention may only make it worse.”

“This city isn’t a very good place for anyone,” Sansa ruminates, playing with the feather on the end of her bow.

What about you? She thinks, but doesn’t say. Here, Brienne looks the role of a knight, even if she will still insist she is not. She spends her days guarding a defenseless girl for no personal gain, and she will still deny it.

And she has no idea who she would have become.

Joffrey and Margaery announce their engagement halfway through the year. Ned spends the back half of the year with his head between his hands trying to get a grasp on the plans.

“Robert’s not going to make it to the end of the year,” he admits one day during supper.

Sansa purses her lips as she sips her soup.

“I didn’t think so. He looks awful.” Robert’s whole body has become swollen, and despite his famous appetite, he rarely eats anymore.

“I can’t help but feel that planning a lavish wedding while his father dies is in poor taste.”

“He will be king,” Sansa considers, “maybe he wants his reign to start with a celebration. Or maybe Robert wants to see his eldest wed before he passes.”

Ned shakes his head.

“I still can’t wrap my head around Joffrey being king. He doesn’t pay a lick of attention in small council meetings, and on the occasion he does, he lashes out and suggests violence for nearly every issue.”

“He will be an awful king,” Sansa agrees, “But I don’t expect he will be king long.

He probably won’t be murdered at his wedding this time, she thinks, or at least if he is, Sansa doesn’t think she will be the tool of poison. She hasn’t received any unexpected gifts anyway. The Iron Islands are in flux, something tells her Stannis still has his doubts about Joffrey’s parentage, and Littlefinger is still manipulating things (his own wedding to Lysa has just been announced).

And, barring all of that, Varys spoke quietly to her once about the songs of his birds from overseas. The thought of Joffrey being eaten by a dragon does give her a certain sense of satisfaction.

‘You don’t imagine Joffrey will want to keep you as his Hand though do you?” she asks out of the blue.

Ned’s words are rough,

“I can’t imagine. The boy dislikes me, his mother dislikes me more, and they’ve both been vocal about it.”

“Perhaps, once his graces passes, then we’ll be able to go home.”

It’s the only hope they have to hold on to, as the wedding draws near.

Sansa’s not in a good mood the day before. Aside from her general distaste for weddings, she has also just got the raven telling her that she was going to miss Arya’s...again.

Ned is at least as upset about that as she is.

“At least there are still four more of you.”

Sansa is quiet for a long time, then suddenly interjects,

“Robb was married. No one was there but Mother. I don’t even remember his wife’s name. She was from Volantis, I think. None of us got to meet her. The three of them all died the same day.”

Ned reaches out and touches the back of her neck. The gown she’s dressed in for the wedding is a light gray, with long sleeves and a full skirt. She’s tall enough at seventeen that she can now look him straight in the eye.

She stands beside him during the ceremony, and he watches her eyes drift over most of the room.

Joffrey and Margaery say their words, and Ned and Sansa try their best not to roll their eyes.

There are performers after, but scanning the crowd, Sansa lets out a sigh of relief, seeing only one dwarf. The pigeon pie doesn’t choke anyone.

Sansa quietly sips at her wine, and watches.

At one point in the evening, she sees Ned take a sip from Robert’s goblet, and wince. Pycelle is accompanying the King, who is barely holding himself upright. He has not eaten or drank anything at all during the festivities.

“I’ve never tasted anything that strong, I’m almost frightened where he found it,” Ned comments, off hand. Sansa wonders at his words.

Time comes for the bedding. Sansa notices Shireen looking a bit apprehensive, and so grabs her hands and the two of them linger at the back of the mob of women.

“Trust me, you don’t want a hand or eyeful of any of that,” she assures the girl.

The dancers and celebrators still linger in the hall. Sansa notices Cersei still at the high table, seemingly quite drunk. That’s a mess she wants no part of either.

Her and Shireen sit alone, sipping lightly from one cup of wine.

"Do you like it here at all?" Sansa finally asks her.

Shireen shrugs.

"I like meeting other people. I like seeing things happen even if I can't be involved. Renly told me when he was helping me get my gown and everything for the ball last year that it was a shame a girl like me had been kept from the world for so long."

"Aren't people sometimes mean to you though?"

"Of course they are, but they don't matter. Maybe in this life I'll be alone, but that's why I like my books and stories. That's I think what I'd like to do with my life. I want to write stories, whether they're real or not."

Sansa sees in her eyes a touch of resentment, she figures for her parents having kept her trapped for so long.

And slowly, and very quietly, she asks her.

"If I told you a story, a very complicated one, could you keep it to yourself, whether you believed it or not?"

Shireen looks at her oddly.

"I wouldn't tell a soul."

And just like that, Sansa has another confidant.

It feels like things should change all at once, but it still somehow happens slowly.

It’s a few days after the wedding, while guests are beginning to leave. Sansa is wandering the halls, again in Lady, when she comes upon Cersei leaving the royal apartments, with an empty bottle.

Sansa-in-Lady takes a moment to heel behind a statue in the hall, when Littlefinger comes in her direction.

He barely even stops upon encountering Cersei, he merely nods in her direction.

“Such a shame it is,” he says, eyes on the bottle, “For a man to be leveled by something he loved so much.”

And Sansa finds herself slipping out of Lady’s head, a heavy sensation causing her stomach to sink.

Of course it wouldn’t be hard, the way Robert drank, to spike his cups even more heavily. Even if someone were drinking first from his cups, they wouldn’t likely notice.

A death he may have brought on himself, hastened by someone who desperately wanted him gone.

A death that comes barely a moon after his eldest son’s wedding.

“I have to make funeral arrangements,” Ned tells her that evening, when the are sitting and talking, “And arrange for Joffrey’s coronation.”

“And after that?”

Ned sighs. It seems to be his primary vocalization now.

“After...we’ll find out.”

Sansa stares out the window in her chambers that night. It’s a deep, dark, clear night, and the raven for winter flies through.

#game of thrones #A Song of Ice and Fire #gendrya #sanrion #jongritte #time travel fix it #fic

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rhegar · 6 years ago

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To go off the rails, and to deserve punishment, in a patriarchal narrative.

Stannis Baratheon was, indeed, the true king of Westeros by blood. He was the eldest brother of a childless king (at least no legitimate children). Then, he took up the Lord of Light’s religion and started burning lords who didn’t follow it. They hadn’t really done any evil deeds, they just... refused to follow his same religion.

So, when he decided to burn his own daughter, we understand why; it wasn’t the first time that he had killed relatives (killing Renly with blood magic) or burned them (burning Axel Florent, his wife’s brother); we’ve been feeling him going slowly off the rail for seasons. On a show full of people who commit atrocities in war and peace, Stannis’ atrocities were against innocents. Stannis had shown, time and time again, that he was a pragmatic man, cold and unfeeling. Not only that, but his daughter Shireen was always portrayed in the narrative as less than, not valuable enough, because she was a girl and because she was deformed in a way that made her “unattractive” as a future wife in a patriarchal society. When he decides to burn her, we’re pained, but we also understand that the decision was easier to him than it would have been if she were male, or prettier therefore a more lucrative match. It’s the reality of such an ugly society.

He was quickly punished in the narrative by dying, and we understood why it all happened and agreed.

Daenerys Targaryen was, indeed, the true queen of Westeros by blood. She was the only daughter left of its last legitimate king who wasn’t brought by by slaughter of heirs like Robert was (and even in the event that Jon is somehow legitimate, her claim still supersedes his because Aerys had cast aside Rhaegar in favor of Viserys as his heir, and Viserys made Daenerys his heir.) When she was in Essos, she managed to acquire dragons. She obtained an army by tricking a slaver into giving it to her and killing him. She also obtains the loyalty of the Second Sons by forming a relationship with their leader, Daario Naharis. She now has the means to take her kingdom back, especially that, in that particular moment, said kingdom is fragmented and in a civil war.

Daenerys sees the atrocities that are being committed against the slaves in Essos and decides to stay there, killing the men responsible for it (slavers, khals who enslave people and sell them to said slavers.) Those are, beyond any reasonable doubt, evil men who deserve to die; they had tortured, mutilated, raped and killed hundreds of thousands of people; to burn them alive or crucify them is but to give them the smallest of taste of what they had committed. Daenerys, in contrast to Stannis, shows love and affection to everyone around her; her handmaidens, her bloodriders, Jorah, Barristan, Missandei, Grey Worm... she is the leader they chose. She didn’t gain their loyalty by taking up a new religion, showing them visions in fires and burning those who refuse to follow; she shows them love.

When she arrives in Westeros, she decides to further derail her quest for the Iron Throne to save humanity from the Night King, and all she is shown is coldness, doubt, giving credit for her work and her legacy to a man who hasn’t done a fraction of what she has. She loses two children, her best friends and a huge portion of her army to save those people, and yet they conspire against her. But, remember: This is nothing compared to the abuse and losses she had already endured; certainly not being rejected by some guy with a small dick that she met like 5 months ago that’s going to drive her off the deepend. . It is certainly not enough to drive her crazy all of a sudden. If it were; if she were mentally that fragile; she would have gone crazy years ago.

And let me remind you, again, that this is a show full of people who have committed atrocities in war but they never turned mad. Tyrion used wildfire on Stannis’ army. Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey orchestrated the murder of people under guest right. Sansa and Arya, again, used gruesome murder methods. Jon Snow (who happens to have Mad King genes yet was never called mad btw) executed a child who was manipulated by older men into betrayal. Some of those were considered evil, but never crazy.

So, when she decided to burn King’s Landing, we don’t understand why. When has she ever shown a tendency to kill innocent civilians? All she had ever done was kill the men who enslaved them. This is literally the polar opposite of everything that she has ever stood for. Even practically it doesn’t make sense; she had already won.

Then, as a justification for a narrative that makes NO SENSE, some men show up and tell us that, hey, she had always been burning people! You cheered her on, you were complicit!

Very convenient that the people saying that also happen to be white, isn’t it? People who haven’t had to read about their ancestors being bought, tortured, raped and killed, just for looking the way that they do.

No, killing slavers and poachers will never equate to killing innocent civilians. It isn’t “foreshadowing”. It doesn’t predict that this person has psychopathic tendencies. This is the shit that white people tell themselves to feel good: That standing by and watching slavery happen without attempting change is the right thing to do, and if you do attempt change, let it be by talking nicely. Well, what if those slavers, predictably, aren’t convinced? What if they refuse to give up the way of life that has brought them fame and fortune and comfort? Well, then, leave them be, otherwise you’re a psychopath/a colonizer (I’m looking at you dumbass sansa stans)

Dany has always been put under extra scrutiny for being a woman who has power, is unapologetic about it and practices it for the benefit of people of color.

Stannis Baratheon used fire to murder the innocent. Daenerys Targaryen used fire to defend the innocent and bring justice to those who harmed them. Stannis’ descent to burning his own daughter, therefore, makes sense. Daenerys’ descent to burning KL, therefore, makes none. We are not justifying that Dany decided to do that, we are saying she never should have, and it’s a fault of the writers not her own, because it happened because they decided to make it so and didn’t come naturally from her character development.

Is that clear enough for the incels now or

#daenerys targaryen #stannis baratheon #anti got

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atopvisenyashill · 10 months ago

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@riana-one - What is funny is that if Dany doesn't have kids, Shireen is her closest loving relative and heir.

YA EXACTLY RIGHT. I think this is a situation that is certainly tenuous (just two deeply self righteous, might makes right sorts that are also deeply unpopular throughout Westeros lmaooo that is not a great situation to find yourself in for anyone) but I also think it opens up Westeros to the possibility of absolute primogeniture.

If Dany never has kids - seems likely, especially since Stannis only has one kid, I feel it's kinda likely that the combo of him and Selyse being gay not frequently having sex + Stannis probably has some minor fertility issues (secondary fertility affects a lot more cis men than you'd think!) - I think she's going to push hard for Shireen to gain access to one of the dragons and then look through Westerosi history to see which house may still have some Targaryen blood to marry Shireen into so that their child will be able to ride a dragon as well. And as we see in her relationship with Missandei, Dany slots very well into the sweet older sister role and I think she and Shireen would be great for each other especially if Shireen is given a dragon and builds some confidence up while perhaps cooling off Dany's temper.

As for Shireen's marriage - of the houses that have some Targaryen blood, they are either super minor - Penrose & Plumm, maybe Tarth fits that as well but they only have Brienne anyway so - or aren't minor but are likely to have a combative relationship with the Iron Throne - Tyrell, potentially the Hightowers, and ya know, Renly himself and Robert's bastards - which leaves only the Martells as a house that a) hasn't attempted to fuck up Stannis and Dany specifically and b) has enough clout to be worth marrying into. Perhaps a Tyrell or Hightower is good for this too given their wealth and how important the Reach is but Trystane is right around Shireen's age.

Anyways I think what happens here is that Shireen has Jacaerys/Daeron II/Rhaegar combo reputation and relationship with her father and stepmother, in that she highly disagrees with how those crazy assholes are doing stuff and builds up her own faction that help her keep her throne once both of them die. But at the same time, Stannis loves her (in his own Stannis way) and I don't think Dany is going to actively undercut her only heir like Aegon IV or Aerys II would do especially when that heir is a sweet, sickly little girl who grows into a sweet, sickly woman who adores her. The best thing is Shireen has no real competition for the throne (except Jon but he's certainly not saying shit to her) so once she and Trystane ascend and settle in, she can start doing some wild shit like insitituing absolute primogeniture and rolling it out across the rest of Westeros, and bringing back all of Egg's reforms. And what the fuck are they gonna say to the Last Valyrian Dragon Rider huh? No? I don't think so!!

hear me out. completely loveless arranged marriage dany and stannis. mel needs danys dragons to deal with the others but stannis will not stop his "i am the king" schtick so they rule as king and queen of westeros. they have no children because dany is infertile and the only reason stannis fucks is to make children. they would burn half the kingdom alive and probably be remembered as worse than maegor. however it will be really funny

dany and stannis would be so funny. like the mirror version of alysanne and jaehaerys. hyper competent at what they’re trying to do because they just burn the shit they don’t like. what are they trying to do? no one really knows but by god are they efficient at it.

#SHIREEN RIDER OF RHAEGAL TRUTHERS RISE #shireen baratheon #stannis baratheon #daenerys targaryen #canon divergent au

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jonsalways · 6 years ago

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Hi.. Your page is such a wonderful read. I wish I had found this fam during that painful s7 leaks and after. Atleast happy that I found now. [PREDICTABLE SPOILER#] what do you think Jon will do when he gets to know about his bf's family bbq roast? He banished a woman who burnt a child unrelated to him but also resurrected him from death. He cannot banish D. But atleast confront her?. Any ideas.

You know what Captain?You’re asking the right questions right here.

The thing about Game of Thrones is NOT to do the same mistakes people have made before.

I’ve talked about it the week Daenerys burned the Tarlys. That scene was written and shot to remind us of Shireen’s death, and of course the Mad King’s execution of the Starks. Daenerys made such a grave mistake by burning the head and the heir of such a known House in Westeros.

Tyrion himself had warned Daenerys about this kind of behavior in their very first encounter and two seasons after it she still doesn’t get it.

That’s why Daenerys is doomed to fail her goals and will certainly die next season. Each and every character who didn’t learn from those who came before them have perished.Daenerys needed to win the hearts of the Westerosi by proving herself an alternative option to those leaders people already knew.The Targaryen name carries a very negative light in Westeros. People remember the Mad King very clearly and Daenerys carried Drogon for a battle for the first time and decided to do what to those who wielded? To burn a son in front of his father just like every person in the land knows the Mad King did.

And of course that’s even worse in the North, because the ones roasted alive by the Mad King was Lord Stark and his previous heir, after Rhaegar ~kidnapped~~ the only daughter of the Warden of the North. . The Northeners HATE the Targaryens and you can’t blame them for it. The North DOES remember and after finally getting together and declaring independence once again from Westeros, the northerners lords have now to bow to another Targaryen with dragons who have commited the same act her mad father did. That’s too much.The Northerners will not accept Daenerys with open arms and when the news of the Tarlys arrive in the North, shit will hit the fan in a phenomenal way.

Let’s not forget how winter is here after all, and in some point the food will become an issue. Daenerys brought an army and dragons with her, that demands a lot of livestock. People in fear and hungry get really angry as we’ve seen in King’s Landing before. It’s almost impossible for Daenerys to get the support from the North, but she has a very tiny chance by protecting the northerners against the WW. But I do believe she will fail in doing so. The Northerners will demand a rebellion when the time comes.

But You asked me about Jon.Well, I think the only ones who truly believe Jon will not care are Jonerys shippers. Jon will not be happy about it.He couldn’t stand Mance’s execution.

He couldn’t stand the accusations of Shireen’s death. He won’t find it ~necessary~~. He will find it cruel and it will settle his mind about Daenerys’s character.

He seemed really suspicious everytime Daenerys showed some sort of impulsive reaction. And who can blame him?Everytime a Targaryen get pissed people die and Jon has a family and an entire country to protect. He knows very well he can’t defy Daenerys especially now that she’s inside his house, in the heart of the North.

I think for the sake of surviving the WW, Jon will avoid to address all the things he disapproves in Daenerys’s behavior.He knows without her dragons his people have no chance against the Dead. That’s why he went so far to bring her North.In Jon’s mind the dead are a bigger threat than Daenerys, and he doesn’t really trust the living will be able to win.I think he will convince people to fight the WW first and deal with the crimes Daenerys did after IF they survive the Battle for the Dawn.With the amount of things bound to happen at the first 2 episodes I don’t think they will have much time to question Daenerys about it. When they try to address this subject the Lannister issue will come out and it’s going to be another sledgehammer.And I’m not even counting with the obvious drama Jon will go through about dealing with his past, his true parents and his feelings for his sister in the second episode written by our fellow Bryan “Jonsa” Cogman.The writers will find a way to put the confront after the Dead are dealt with. Just like happened with Davos and Melissandre, or Jon and Littlefinger and Daenerys and Varys.

But the point is: the murder of Sam’s family is actually meant to put Sam against Daenerys not Jon.

Jon doesn’t trust Daenerys already but he’s trying to find a way to settle terms with her in a way the North is spared after she finishes her conquest. His pride is not something he really cares about, he is worried about the safety of his people. He will not engage in a war against Daenerys and her dragons if not forced to.

That’s when Sam comes in.Sam was the person behind the Night’s Watch electing Jon as Lord Commander against his will.Sam will probably be the one to force Jon to accept his place as heir to the Throne and fight to overthrone Daenerys. Sam would use the Northerners’s opinion to force the Northerner Throne to fight against a southerner ruler. People have underestimated Sam all along when he is in fact the one behind plenty of crucial events that happened in Jon’s life. At the end of this journey Sam will be the one to reveal Jon’s parents true identity and to direct Jon on his fight for the throne.

Thanks for the ask!I hope you enjoyed it!

#jonsa #samwell tarly #my asks #gotseason8 #meta #dance of dragons

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myrcellabrtheons · 5 years ago

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♔ → westeros presents MYRCELLA BARATHEON, the PRINCESS of THE SEVEN KINGDOMS. a raven sent word that she bears the resemblance to ELLE FANNING. the TWENTY - THREE year old FEMALE was INNOCENT & OPTIMISTIC before the dawn of war, but have now become MISTRUSTING & UNCERTAIN. when songs are sung, their verses speak of SOFT GOLDEN CURLS HUNG LOOSE OVER SHOULDERS, SHIMMERING IN LATE AFTERNOON SUN, DRESSES OF PINK SILK ON A SLENDER FRAME, SWIRLING AS SHE DANCED ALONE IN THE GARDENS, and A MOMENT OF SILENCE, ALONE IN A CORNER, PRETTY FACE HIDING THE CALCULATION UNDERNEATH. whispers throughout the seven kingdoms claim that their allegiance lies with HOUSE LANNISTER / THEMSELVES, but fealty means little when you play the game of thrones.

it’s time for an intros kids. i really went into this like, ‘i won’t make it that long!’ and it was a lie. i’m not surprised by myself, but i am disappointed that i’m like that.

basics

name: myrcella baratheon (or would that be lannister?) title: princess of the seven kingdoms age: twenty three loyalty: house lannister, herself appearance: golden blonde curls, green eyes, fair skin. scar on her cheek.

cersei lannister and jaime lannister robert baratheon’s only daughter, sister to tommen and joffrey baratheon, princess of the seven kingdoms. sent to live in dorne by her uncle tyrion for her safety as a child, she spent her youth betrothed to the young prince trystane. however, when dorne declared for daenerys targaryen, myrcella’s life became endangered, and her father uncle jaime travelled south to bring her home. together they managed to flee dorne, and travelled north to return to the capital.

in many ways, dorne sheltered her from the horrors of war ; even her brother tommen has seen more than she. she was safe, and it allowed her the chance to live an almost normal life. the martells were good to her, and she came to care for trystane, and did not resent their betrothal. perhaps she even loved him in a way, though myrcella is not entirely sure. was it love, or was it merely a friendship tainted by the knowledge that they were to be man and wife?

in dorne she received the finest education they could offer, and she was a diligent student, always ready to work hard. myrcella studied language, poetry, politics, and yes, even the strategies of war, for the dornish did not have the same rules as their northern counterparts. indeed, they even allowed her some minor weapons training, though myrcella never took to it very well. she had not the heart to cause others pain, even in practice.

she was a kind young woman, who believed the world could be kind also, and yet now that war has reached her, myrcella’s beliefs have been shaken. she and her uncle did not escape the southern peninsula unscathed ; she bears a scar on her cheek from a dornish guard, and in her own defence was forced to take his life. now she doubts herself - she has always been the kind, gentle princess who would never harm even the smallest of creatures, so what is she now? she has felt a man’s life-blood spill on her hands, and for all that myrcella does not want that to change her, it feels inevitable.

and then of course, there is the question of ser jaime lannister. as a child he was her beloved uncle ; now, she is not sure what to call him. even in dorne she heard the rumours, and though she wished to deny them, myrcella found herself wondering. she bore no resemblance to king robert - she was her mother’s miniature, green-eyed and golden haired and beautiful. and so it is only natural she must bear a resemblance to her mother’s twin also, is it not?

in truth she hardly remembers the old king now, it has been so many years since his death, and she is ashamed. he raised her, believed she was his daughter - she remembers his kindness and his temper both. king robert yelled at joffrey, at her mother, but never at his beloved princess. still, she knows her parents did not have a happy marriage, and that her mother loves jaime better than almost anyone. now that she is no longer a child, it is not hard to believe the rumours are true. she will not dare admit it aloud, though, for myrcella knows the power that lies in being an heir to the iron throne. she does not have the luxury of admitting the truth when it very well may get her killed.

now that she returns to the captial, myrcella cannot help but feel some trepidation. it has been over ten years since she’s seen her mother, and in that time, she has grown disillusioned with the queen. cersei always doted on her as a child, yet at the same time, cersei sometimes seemed to distance herself from her only daughter. perhaps it was because she knew, even when myrcella was just a babe, that one day she like all princesses before her, would have to leave her home and loved ones to wed a stranger. she believes her mother loves her - that can never be denied - but in their time apart, she has also come to realise that in part she and her brothers were ways for her mother to gain power.

a queen needs to create heirs, and it seems to myrcella cersei did anything she had to to provide them, even if that meant committing the worst sins with her own twin. she has also heard rumours of the things her mother has done, and while myrcella is loathe to believe them, it is difficult to deny that perhaps the loving mother she remembers was only one side of cersei lannister. she cannot pretend that her mother is perfect, and knowing what she does - that she and tommen have no true right to the throne, they are bastards, not even the children of a king - myrcella questions why this war must continue, when they are fighting for something that is not even theirs.

okay that’s about it. probably. it’s getting a bit long so i should stop. i did warn you. kinda. here are some wanted plots/ideas from my app but also...mostly we can just brainstorm, probably.

plot points

i’d love to play out myrcella’s relationship with her family members! cersei, jaime, tommen, tyrion, shireen!!!!, even margaery if you count her as family…i think that would be so interesting!

i’d be super interested in seeing myrcella play a part with the war at large - though she’s not a fighter, she definitely could be more into the political/strategic side of things, as she’s obviously had a strong education and is highly intelligent, and is capable of seeing things from her own perspective.

i’d also like to look into how myrcella feels about house lannister and this war - i think she’s got a lot of doubts, and is beginning to wonder if they are even right to be fighting it. i think that, while she’s loyal to her family, she’s not necessarily loyal to fighting and dying over the iron throne. myrcella doesn’t want to die for a crown, she wants to live her own life, and when push comes to shove, she may be forced to choose herself over her mother’s ambitions.

obvs also myrcella is a princess, and in this world that means that her potential marriages are important, so it could be fun to play around with that, and how she could use that to her advantage

#rev:intros

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a-libra-writes · 3 years ago

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Hey Libra! I wanted to know your thoughts on the whole ‘Stannis is a misogynist’ argument, since he’s a loved figure on your page! I personally haven’t been able to see much of his personality in the books, seeing as I’m only on like chapter 13 of ACOK, but from what I’ve seen from him in the shows and books, he’s just… curt? And awkward? I would hardly say he shows anymore animosity towards women than he shows to men. I know people talk about his treatment of Selsye as proof of his sexism, but I’m really not sure. I’m sorry if this is a commonly asked question, but I wanted to know your stance since my love of Stannis stemmed from reading your fics about him!

mmm I think this idea stems from his treatment of both Gilly and Selyse. I'm def not an authority on his character or anything, just what I've observed and gathered:

Gilly - She's an "abomination" because she's the offspring of her father and sister, it doesn't matter that it was almost certainly against her will. In the book he speaks of her poorly: "Her own father got this child on her? We are well rid of her, then. I will not suffer such abominations here. This is not King's Landing".

I was surprised by this because the Westerosi belief that incest is an abomination before the gods - and yanno, it's gross, but Stannis himself is not a religious man. He could've just said it was gross but he has a totally zero tolerance here. He doesn't even entertain the fact it wasn't consensual. Which being Westerosi, maybe that doesn't matter at all... and of course he's disgusted by Cersei+Jaime and their kids. So shrug. Societal shames and taboos run deep.

Selyse - So now that I've read the books, I'm pretty annoyed with the show painting Selyse as "lol crazy woman" and little else. In the book she has a degree of cunning. It ain't much, but she and her men certainly have their own agenda and she specifically disagrees with Stannis and almost seems to work against him - if not her directly, her relatives and her queensmen certainly do. Selyse may be devoted to Melisandre and R'hllor, but she and Stannis have a clear dislike of each other, to the point where he doesn't even want her touching him. He refers to her as "woman" several times and when she holds onto his arm, he pointedly tells her to "stop clutching" him and tries to get out of her grasp.

Another big rift between them is her treatment of Shireen: Book!Seylse thinks her daughter is repulsive and wants nothing to do with her, while Stannis sees Shireen as his true heir. I think their personalities are wholly incompatible. It's a big shame; I rlly love Stannis so I wish we had some more on his marriage and why she was chosen (are Florents powerful in the Stormlands or something??) or at least I wish she had more character.

Between these two there's also a running theme of Stannis being uncomfortable with sex - any mention of it, consensual or otherwise. When Selyse is clutching him in that scene and he shoos her off, she's says, "Robert and Delena defiled our bed and laid a curse upon our union. This boy is the foul fruit of their fornications. Lift his shadow from my womb and I will bear you many trueborn sons, I know it. He is only one boy, born of your brother's lust and my cousin's shame." While he was indifferent to Gilly until the incest was mentioned, then he wanted nothing to do with her. This could be a coincidence, but I've seen several HCs of Stannis being very sex-repulsed and/or Ace, and I myself HC him as ace. So more food there.

Now!! Let's compare this to Melisandre. So in the books she's waaay more mysterious and creepy, at least to me. He takes her counsel seriously and often discusses matters with her. I'm one of the people who doesn't believe he's sleeping with her - she's an actual advisor, like Davos. I haven't finished a Dance with Dragons, but I'm excited to see her scenes. Even without reading that, it's pretty clear Stannis respects her. I'm not sure how people take away Stannis is a misogynist when Melisandre has such a high rank in his army. Lady Melisandre wore no crown, but every man there knew she was Stannis Baratheon's true queen, not the homely woman he had left to shiver at Eastwatch-By-The-Sea.

#libra says stupid shit o clock #tbf he doesnt interact with many women (on purpose im sure but also bc there arent as many female POVs)#so i guess thats where people get it from?

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trinuviel · 6 years ago

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Hi :) I keep seeing that J and D will be parts of "dance of dragons 2.0" but what exactly is that and what their roles will be? Was it foreshadowed? I am really curious about it, but I can't find any meta bc the name is the same as the book. Thank you :)

The Dance of the Dragons was a civil war between the two oldest children of Viserys I, Rhaenyra from his first marriage and her half-brother Aegon II. Rhaenyra had been raised as the heir because she was Viserys I’s only child for a long time and after her mother’s death he officially named her his heir and had the lords of the realm do obeisance to her. However, he remarried and had children with his new queen. When Viserys I died, both Rhaenyra and her half-brother Aegon claimed the Crown. What followed was a war of succession that was incredibly bloody and destructive because both factions had dragons. The war ended with the death of Rhaenyra (she was eaten by her half-brother’s dragon) but the long-term consequences were severe for House Targaryen. Many members of the family had died and most of the dragons had died as well. The last dragon died during the reign of Rhaenyra’s son Aegon III. You can read about the Dance of the Dragons in the novella The Princess and the Queen and in the new book Fire and Blood.

(Death of Lucerys Velaryon and Arrax. Art by Chase Stone)

GRRM was most likely inspired by real historical events for The Dance of the Dragons. During the mid 12th century a war of succession over the English throne was fought between Matilda, daughter of Henry I and his nephew Stephen of Blois. Matilda was her father’s recognized heir after the death of her older brother. It was a bloody war, commonly referred to as The Anarchy. It lasted for about 20 years and ended with Matilda’s son taking the English Crown as Henry II. So you can see that there are some remarkable similarities to GRRM’s Targaryen civil war.

The reason why fans talk about a Second Dance of Dragons is because it is something that GRRM himself has alluded to in an interview:

Q: Hi, short question. Will we find out more about the Dance of the Dragons in future books?

GRRM: The first dance or the second? The second will be the subject of a book. The first will be mentioned from time to time, I'm sure. (So Spake Martin)

A lot of fans believe that this second Dance will take place between Daenerys Targaryen and Varys’ puppet Young Griff, also referred to as fAegon, since he is very likely not who he thinks he is (Rhaegar’s son) and he is related to the vision Dany had of the Mummer’s Dragon in Qarth. Young Griff shows up in the fifth book, A Dance with Dragons (the title is similar but not the same as the name of the Targaryen civil war).

A released chapter from The Winds of Winter also hints more directly at a Second Dance of Dragons:

Dragons?” said her mother. “Teora, don’t be mad." "I’m not. They’re coming." "How could you possibly know that?” her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. “One of your little dreams?" Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died.” (TWoW, Arianne I)

This is from Arianne Martell’s POV and she is on her way to meet with fAegon to determine whether he’s the real deal or not. Because of the context of this quote one could argue that the Second Dance will be between Dany and fAegon. However, I think that this Second Dance of Dragon may very well also include Jon Snow after the parentage reveal.

I’ve written more in-depth about this elsewhere, so I’ll just quote myself:

Will this Second Dance of Dragons also include Jon? Will Jon and Daenerys clash when his true parentage is revealed? Jon doesn’t want the Iron Throne but Dany will probably be suspicious after her experiences with (f)Aegon. Then there’s the fact that the show appears to be foreshadowing a clash between Targaryens. The show has eliminated the storyline about fAegon but it has included a reference to The Dance of the Dragons.

In season 5, Shireen Baratheon reads about the first Dance of Dragons and then discusses that tragic piece of Westerosi history with her father Stannis Baratheon.

In season 2, Stannis entered into a small-scale Baratheon version of a similar conflict because his younger brother Renly made a bid for the Iron Throne. However, that conflict was resolved with Renly’s murder in season 2 so you have to wonder why a conflict of succession between family members is brought up several seasons later - unless it is to foreshadow a future conflict between Jon and Daenerys. This interpretation is supported by the fact that the show tends to use stories as devices of foreshadowing. In season 3, Bran’s tale of the Rat Cook foreshadows both the Red Wedding as well as Arya’s revenge when she serves Walder Frey a pie made of his sons in season 7. In season 3, Shireen brings ser Davos a book about Aegon the Conqueror and his dragons when he sits in the dungeons of Dragonstone and the story she tells foreshadows Daenerys’ return to the very same place in season 7.

Some people argue that the show has simply given (f)Aegon’s storyline to Jon. That is a valid argument but a specific utterance by GRRM makes me believe that a Second Dance of Dragons will involve Jon at some point in the books as well:

I’ve been always very impressed by Homer and his Iliad, especially the scene of the fight between Achilles and Hector. Who is the hero and who is the villain? That’s the power of the story and I wanted something similar to my books. The hero of one side is the villain of the other side. (GRRM)

This is a very interesting quote in the context of a Second Dance of Dragons. I’ve demonstrated that the stage is set for a conflict between Daenerys and (f)Aegon. However, (f)Aegon has nowhere near the narrative weight of a Hector or an Achilles. He is introduced too late in the story for that. However, we must remember that (f)Aegon also serves as a foil to Jon in relation to the trope of the Hidden Prince. @randomtvramblings has argued that Jon embodies the qualities of the ideal king that Varys is trying to mould (f)Aegon into. (f)Aegon is Jon’s mirror - the false coin to Jon as the true prince. Furthermore, Jon is the only other character that has the narrative weight to play the Hector (defender) to Daenerys’ Achilles (invader). Both characters are among the central protagonists of the story and they are both considered heroic - but what happens if one becomes an antagonist to the other? Then “the hero of one side becomes the villain of the other side” as GRRM so eloquently puts it.

So this is my argument as to why the Second Dance of Dragons will involve Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow. His claim supersedes hers and fAegon doesn’t have the narrative importance to give this future conflict sufficient narrative weight. Furthermore, the show may condense and eliminate some plots but they do work towards an endgame given to them by GRRM - and in this perspective, the inclusion of a reference to The Dance of the Dragons combined with the elimination of fAegon is notable and very interesting - and, IMO, foreshadowing an eventual conflict between Jon and Dany.

You said that you can’t find any metas about this subject. First of all, make sure you type the right words into the search: it is Dance of the Dragons (not A Dance with Dragons). Some people also add a 2.0 to their metas (Dance of Dragons 2.0, or DoD 2.0).

Thanks for the ask. I hope this cleared up a few things for you.

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