#and by no means was aegon actually a good ruler ( he was definitively not good at all. awful in fact. )

[usyrps]

something something rook's rest ironically being the catalyst of aegon's strength and bravery. he's already angry and in pain after b&c, but i think this is the first time he directly faces his own mortality and is forced to acknowledge the grim reality of the situation, that this is war. he takes the kids and leaves with larys in the wake of KL being stormed. they orchestrate the takeover of dragonstone. he goes on dragonback, again, into another battle against a dragonrider even though he was noted to be in chronic pain. injured and distraught, he shows more agency than he had before. goes on to take back KL and begin the restoration. he held court, even if he could not make it to the throne. and of course, none of it matters and he was doomed to fail from the beginning because the dance is a tragedy of a dynasty torn asunder by its own ambitions, and not something that could have been won. but so much of his motivation is rooted in the love he has for his family and wanting to protect them, keep them alive. that, and a copious amount of anger. love and rage.

[mythicmanuscripts]

Hiii! I read your post-Rook’s Rest Aegon angst story and omg it was so perfect!! I loved it so much! I have a weakness for angst and you write it so well!!

If your requests are still open, could I ask for some more Aegon angst or hurt/comfort? I would love your take on his struggles during season 1/pre-coronation!

Thank you so much for all the wonderful little stories and headcanons you’re putting out there, I’m reading and enjoying each and every one ❤️

Oooo great question!! Honestly I somehow didn’t even consider the angsty side of this so I’m so glad you brought it up! And thank you so much for the kind words, they mean so much and help me stay motivated. So without further ado, here’s the angsty season one aegon thoughts :))

(While there’s nothing sexual in these thoughts, there are definitely dom/sub undertones, specially sub!Aegon so bare that in mind before you continue reading.)

So firstly, I think you’d be introduced to Aegon a few weeks before he actually became king. Everyone knew that his father’s health was declining, and that Aegon would soon be king. And, everyone knew how ill equipped Aegon was to be king.

Originally, Aegon was supposed to marry Helena. That plan was cancelled pretty soon when Allicent realised that Helena was not at all up to the task of managing and controlling Aegon. Because that’s exactly why she needed to marry him. She was as fast losing her influence over him and he has not at all ready to be a ruler, so she had to find him a wife who would be harsh and strict with him and who would be able to control him.

Even worse, Allicent doesn’t hide this desire from Aegon at all. She openly tells him that she’s arranged a wedding with the daughter of another house specifically because this daughter has a reputation of being firm and unwavering and not taking nonsense. Allicent spells out to him that she doesn’t think he can rule so she has had to find a bride for him that will be able to control him and stop him from making a fool of himself.

Aegon doesn’t think he’s ever felt as humiliated as he did that dinner when Allicent announced this to him. He always knew that his mother and father both didn’t think he was fit to rule, and his brother was certainly counting down the days until the weight of crown becomes too much and he has to drop it.

But this… hearing his mother openly planning on the best way to control him? And of all the relationships for her to exploit, she wants to use his future wife? As much as Aegon tries to act all cool and nonchalant and like he doesn’t care about anything, the truth is that he has a soft soul and is a romantic at heart. He always dreamed of meeting his wife and slowly building up a good, strong relationship.

His dreams of that are crushed before he even meets you.

Because of all of this, Aegon doesn’t even get to see you before the wedding, nevermind speak to you. He asks to see you, multiple times, but Allicent won’t budge. She says him seeing you won’t make a difference, he’s marrying you either way.

He’s so dejected on his wedding day. When you look into his eyes for the first time, you just see such a deep sadness that it makes your chest ache. You try to be kind to him that night, try to compliment him and listen to him. It does very little and he remains cold the whole evening.

When it’s time to consummate the marriage, Aegon shows you to your new quarters with him and slowly begins to undress like he’s a robot. You stop him immediately. You tell him that it’s just the two of you here now, no one else. He doesn’t have to pretend or follow his mother’s orders, she’s not here.

He’s confused then.

“You don’t want to have sex?” Asks, confused, “Didn’t my mother tell you to get pregnant immediately?”

You chuckle and say that she did, but you don’t care what she said, she’s not in this marriage.

Allicent made one crucial era when she chose you, she assumed your courage and knowledge and independence would mean you agreed with her. But no, no it didn’t. It meant you thought for yourself, and it meant you realised just how sad and hurt the soon to be king is.

You stick your head out the door and tell the guards find you a stack of cards. The guards are, of course, very confused but you are now officially the future queen so they can’t exactly say no.

Once you have the cards, you put them down on the bed and sit on the other side. Aegon smiles when he sees that. A real smile, not the fake one he kept during the wedding.

You realise pretty quickly that the absolute best way to help Aegon at first is actually to be more of his friend than his wife? You listen to him and offer him occasional advice but you also play card games and trade family stories and discuss your dreams. Aegon has never had a friend before. At least, he’s never had a friend not somehow influenced by his status as future heir.

When he’s alone with you, he doesn’t feel the future disappointment everyone else seems to see. He just feels like himself.

It takes him a very long time to admit that he’s not fit for all the requirements of being ruler. He’s not ready for it and he doesn’t even want to be ready for it.

You listen to him, of course, and then you remind him that even though the two of you have mainly just played cards, you are still his wife. You swore an oath to love and protect him and you have no intention of breaking it.

That gets a smile out of him, and ends in him kissing you, giggling against your mouth every now and then because he’s finally accepted that he’s not alone in this expectation anymore.

Pretty soon the two of you work out what your dynamic is, and Aegon is genuinely so thankful to have you in his life. Because while yes, you most certainly help him and offer him advice and even tell him when he’s outright wrong, you never make him feel stupid. That’s the difference. He can ask you things and voice his frustrations because he knows you won’t belittle him for it. He’s happy to follow your advice because you don’t make him feel bad for needing advice.

You always treat him with love and care, always open your arms when he needs.

Once he’s crowned, he removes Allicent from the small council and adds you.

[kazz-brekker]

hotd episode thoughts

listen, as someone who enjoys some good dragon drama, i feel fantastically well catered-to by this episode

the confrontation between rhaenyra and addam was fun, i liked that it's apparently kind of inspired by western face-offs but with dragons instead of guns

that conversation between larys and ironrod while they were watching aemond sentence men to the watch definitely implied to me that, unlike with his brother, the council is so wary of/intimidated by aemond they don't even want to talk to him about possibly important war developments. which does not bode well for team green's stability in the future, tbh

jace stop being mean about mysaria that's your mom's girlfriend you're talking about :(

i did find the conversation between rhaenyra and jace really interesting, i hadn't considered that the sowing of the seeds plan might bring out so much of his insecurities about being a bastard. he and rhaenyra have probably the most functional parent-child relationship in the show, but they really DON'T talk about this aspect of his life at all, and it really shows

oscar tully unexpected mvp of the episode perhaps? holding his own against that whole council of river lords…calling daemon loathsome…making him execute willem blackwood to atone for spurring on those war crimes…king shit!

i enjoyed getting to see viserys again, i've really missed his actor this season and seeing daemon's reaction to his ruined face was quite interesting

daemon you are SO close to realizing that you don't actually want to be king and would make a terrible ruler, i'm rooting for you to figure this out by the season finale

the scene with aegon and larys talking was probably my favorite from last week so i really liked that we got a follow-up on it. very impressed that aegon is capable of walking even the tiniest amount after what he's been through

rhaena running off into the mountains…she's getting that dragon by hook or by crook

ulf trying to get out of claiming a dragon by claiming he had an injury made me laugh

i like that hugh and ulf have totally different reactions to being possible dragonseeds, one boasting and the other hiding it

alicent was serving real ophelia by john william waterhouse vibes this episode

loved that the dragonkeepers had a huge fight with rhaenyra over the sowing of the seeds, they're in the background of so many dragon scenes but we've never gotten much perspective on what they think of dragons or the targaryen right to claim them before

i do admit to saying "wow, those are some toasty boys" out loud when vermithor was torching those poor dragonseeds

love love LOVE that we got to see both vermithor and silverwing this episode, they look so cool and i love their distinct designs

i have been waiting ALL SEASON for the payoff of hugh and ulf claiming those dragons and it was such an exciting sequence, you could really feel the adrenaline and the danger the whole time

ryan condal on the inside the episodes comparing the death of the dragonseeds to ritual sacrifice was also super fun symbolism

another daeron mention, hi daeron and tessarion :)

also house beesbury making problems for the hightowers, love to see it

after aemond has spent so much time this season intimidating and terrifying other people it WAS super fun to see him do a hard swerve into fear when he saw how many dragonriders rhaenyra has now

that final shot of rhaenyra standing on the dragonmount with syrax, vermithor, and silverwing behind her DID get to, i must say. it's house of the dragon! and we have the dragons!!!

okay yeah i am super hyped for the finale and whatever it may bring, seems like it's gonna be epic. the triarchy! the dragons! the riverlands! helaena in the war effort, apparently?! what fun!

[horizon-verizon]

What do you think of George referring to Aegon and Helaena as "King Aegon" and "Queen Helaena" and Rhaenyra by her name in the new (now deleted) blog?

(Webpage Link)

And I said this in the comments of this post, but repeating myself: he's writing in the mood and "perspective" of the KLers who resented Rhaenyra and loved Helaena for the "sweetness" they felt Rhaenyra no longer had. I also wrote another independent post abt what sort of love the smallfolk had for Helaena HERE, which is very important for anyone to read BEFORE reading this post bc I'm not going to repeat myself. You also should probably read THIS POST that goes into how the Shepherd characterizes Helaena vs Rhaenyra.

A) The Actual Comments I Wrote:

[*EDIT: 9/8/24*] Adding/correcting, I was describing the free indirect style:

This is a literary style that allows the narrator’s voice to share with us the words, thoughts or feelings of the characters, without telling us that this is what they are doing. This means that the character’s thoughts or words slip into the third-person narrative, subtly shifting the perspective from that of the narrator to that of the character. It’s almost as though the narrator is the character for a moment, but they’re not – they’re still the narrator. Importantly, the speech or thought is not attributed to the character (for example with a ‘she thought’ or ‘he imagined’), so the reader must pick up on clues in the text to understand that these are the thoughts of the character, not the narrator.

[*END OF EDIT*]

And in response to what GRRM said that started this whole debate after someone else asked:

B) Jaehaerys, Rego Draz, and the Taxes/Executions (for context and comparison b/t smallfolk's reactions to taxes and executions):

I don't deny that the smallfolk loved her and GRRM was being sympathetic for Helaena when he wrote that post.

I am saying that:

He was writing, in that post, sympathetically bc Helaena was so from the smallfolk and Rhaenyra was reviled both here and at large by the narrative bc she was simply the more active party while being female; Helaena never actually ruled, she was always a consort and her person was more the accessory of Aegon or as a representation of "goodness", esp when the Shepherd contrasts Helaena's "purity" to Rhaenyra's "whorish" "evil", which further encourages the peasants to riot as they are already rioting

the smallfolk's sort of love for Helanea was not the sort that comes from just appreciating the person as is but as a contrast to the person they came to despise. And from that phenomenon, the smallfolk revealed another interesting phenomenon of how the actual people, the subjects themselves, can switch between diff "definitions" of queenship. Not kingship, QUEENSHIP, precisely bc gender, ethnicity, etc. did/does affect how the public will see a ruler's actions' effects on them.

The Shepherd and Helaena v Rhaenyra ("Rhaenyra Overthrown"):

When Jaehaerys strung up Rego Draz's murderers (Rhaenyra strung up those she had executed), it was during a time of "peacetime"/no war even as it was also a time of widespread fatal illness; he had no outside enemies who could invade at the same time, bc his mother and stepfather took care of that in a sorta-similar situation when he himself was still underage ("The Long Reign-Jaehaerys and Alysanne-Policy, Progeny, and Pain"):

Rego Draz, like Celtigar but much smarter about it, still also put taxes on common KLers after he and Jaehaerys did on luxury items (nobles) out of necessity. But the smallfolk of KL still took issue with Rego and not Jaehaerys both bc of said taxes AND bc Rego was a Essosi foreigner.

So yes, Jaehaerys did have to deal with a dying and ill populace and used an actually consummate master of coin...but those taxes still angered smallfolk enough towards violence & rape & looting ("The Long Reign - Jaehaerys and Alysanne - Policy, Progeny, and Pain"):

bc they were being taxed already through a gate tax BEFORE the Shivers came ("Birth, Death, and Betrayal Under Jaehaerys I"):

Were Rhaenyra's taxes very heavy, yes. Did she have much other option during a war where food was scarce and an invasion could happen at any moment AND the greens depleted the treasury she sought to quickly fill, no. Were there rumors PLUS the Shepherd's anti dragon, anti "bad" woman preachings incentivizing already resentful and starving people to riot against the woman ruling over them who they previously loved [evidence in the next section], yes. Did Jaehaerys really go through a similar situation, even with the Shivers being so terrible, no, bc he had more than Rego Draz, he had his own mother and stepfather basically pave the rulership-way for him before he came of age to become king for him and Rego to be able to implement the taxes as well as they did. The same Alyssa and Rogar who the KLers also took issue with for the taxes they made on them when they were trying to rebuild the Dragonpit ("A Surfeit of Rulers"):

Yes, Jaehaerys-Rego fixed this situation & learned from it--once again, neither ALyssa-Rogar-Edwell nor Jaehaerys-Rego had to contend with an ACTIVE war and a TOTALLY DEPLETED treasury nor the PREJUDICE AND HIGHER EXPECTATIONS against a female ruler. So....

C) Use of the Book to Show What I Mean abt GRRM's Use of the Smallfolk's Perspective and the Timeline/Transition of such b/t Before The Fall of King's Landing and After It

Before the Fall of King's Landing, & the taxes the KLers loved Rhaenyra as the "Realm's Delight" and such a moniker in the book connoted an image of pleasantness:

("Rhaenyra Triumphant")

("A Question of Succession")

("A Question of Succession")

("A Son for a Son")

("A Son for a Son")

Refer back to the very first pic/quote I give in this section. The moment Rhaenyra showed herself to be...not so "sweet" by the taxes during a time of fear of invasions/retaliations from the greens and their dragons, starvation, etc. bc...war (which she did bc the greens looted the royal treasury BEFORE she even landed & took KL but the smallfolk didn't know about that nor would they ever come to), and the previous image of her being charming, lovely, and innocently beautiful, innocently childlike transformed into her innate cruelty.

So yes, they resented Rhaenyra and many would not have wanted her as their Queen not just bc of taxes but bc the taxes were compounded by the...disillusionment(?) of that image/character of her through said taxation. thus the lack of "Queen" for Rhaenyra and "Queen" for Helaena and "Prince" for Maelor, both people who have no power, were very vulnerable to the actions of those around them, and nearly childlike or was an actual child whether in reality or in their imagination. At least under the greens--who Helaena is inevitably connected to--they weren't being taxed and Helaena has no real power herself to ever had affected the smallfolk's life so strongly.

This is what I think is being expressed through GRRM's writing in that particular blog post.

As for reactions to Aegon's coronation, we have Munkun saying the smallfolk were "most[ly] confused" by the announcement of Aegon's coronation and saying (some) Rhaenyra's name instead VS Munkun saying that there were many cheers when the actual coronation happened ("The Blacks and the Greens"):

[strawberrycarat]

I think, if we're being impartial about Viserys' children, Aemond is actually more prepared to rule (not that I consider he would be the best ruler of all Westeros - just more prepared than his siblings).

Rhaenyra. Yes, she's Viserys' heir, but why ? I think it was mostly because of guilt (Viserys killed Aemma to get a son and that haunted him a lot - and he was angry at Daemon for celebrating his son's death) so he named her the heir - not because she was the wisest option in that point, to be honest... But, is there any scene where she can actually prove her knowledge in ruling ? At least, before the war, she didn't show a lot of political strategy (she suggested fighting with dragons against the triarchy and that's all - which actually worked when Daemon and Laenor fought with Corlys)... And it's not actually her fault (the council didn't took her opinions because she was a woman - and how was she supposed to get experience if no one taught her or take her serious ?) Also, she spent many years away in Dragonstone (and, for the hesitation of so many houses to follow her immediately - and her trying to make them remember their vows or their fathers vows when she was named heir, it seems like she didn't care a lot for politics in Westeros while she was there - unlike the greens, that took the capital until most part of the council was loyal to Aegon's succession - like, if I was on her place, I would've befriended every lord, lady and house I could to ensure their support in case of war). THIS IS MY OPINION - I LIKE RHAENYRA - DON'T COME FOR ME, OK?

Baelon - RIP

Aegon. I think we all know he wasn't one for rule. He doesn't know how politics work, as Otto pointed him when he hanged the catch ratters. There is a lot of strategy in politics and Aegon definitely doesn't know how to act in those situations - because he didn't care all his life so how is he going to learn in a few weeks all he didn't in a lifetime (I mean, if it was the plan all along to put him in the throne, why not prepare him? Alicent was very insistent in many scenes with young Aegon, even telling him he was Rhaenyra's biggest menace for the throne and that could cost his life - why not making him more involved in the world of schemes and politics then?)

Helaena. Poor soul is already tormented with her visions and doesn't seem to really control it. She was more worried about it and her bugs to even care about politics.

Aemond. As he said, he was very disciplined in his studies (philosophy, history, etc.,) also, he was a dragon rider with an actual war dragon (which gives an extra when it comes to war or menaces) and he's a good swordsman. We can also see that he's respected and people listen to him in the council - even if he has this bad temper (the one that made him lose control over Vhagar and made him burn his brother) he seems to understands the schemes that involves ruling a kingdom. It seems like, amongst all Viserys' children, he did got involved in that world and he is not one to waste time with small things like Aegon nor has the need to actually get involved in I-need-people-to-like-me politics (like Rhaenyra needed) since he can be more like Daemon (from Season 1, obviously) and being a threat with Vhagar to those who dare to face him.

Daeron. We don't know much about him, but him being away from King's Landing didn't gave the chance to learn politics inside the capital. Perhaps he can know more about people (he's said to be Alicent's most popular child) and that can give him points (like Renly Baratheon), but it doesn't grant him the wisdom to rule - we know he's also a good fighter, but no more, unfortunately. Let's see how the show will portray him.

Anyways, this is my opinion. In general, I like them all (I started to empathize a bit with Aegon this season in a couple of scenes - Tom does an excellent work) so don't hate me, please.

[nrilliree]

Hey! I have to say that I truly enjoy all of your posts and as a fellow TB supporter I wanted to share with you one of my most recent debates with a TG and see what you think about it.

We were talking about something else when suddenly the topic changed to HOTD. Now, this is not the first time I hear this nonsense but they began by saying that they are TG because “Rhaenyra is an entitled b*tch” (as if a chosen heir wasn’t entitled to their inheritance). And I couldn’t help but think that TG comes up with a lot of BS to try to diminish Rhaenyra’s rightful claim to her inheritance and justify the usurpation of her throne.

What’s funny is that their entire speech revolved around “Rhaenyra should’ve done so much more to deserve the throne” or “She didn’t prepare to rule” (which she actually did but they were definitely not ready for that conversation).

The point is they think that Rhaenyra is unsuited to rule but, what is their option? Aegon? Pfff! They think Rhaenyra is unsuited for the throne and their option is Aegon? What a joke! Now, the real question is: what did Aegon even do to deserve the throne? Whenever I ask this to a TG, they always evade this question. They always change the subject to something that’s completely irrelevant to the topic of discussion. But they never answer the question. Why? Because they don’t have an appropriate answer for this.

I proceeded to ask this question to that person from TG and insisted on getting an answer and do you know what they answered? That whether Aegon was suited to rule or not was irrelevant and not the point. Like, they were trying to justify Aegon usurping Rhaenyra’s throne and they still think that whether or not he was suited to rule was irrelevant? I mean, that is the whole point. If you don’t think that the ruler from the opposite team is fit to rule, then at the very least, you should consider the one you support to be better for the role.

But no, according to them, Rhaenyra is not a good option to rule the Seven Kingdoms, but it doesn’t matter if Aegon is a good option or not.

Thank you, that's nice to hear :)

While going through all these discussions, I noticed the arguments that were always repeated: Rhaenyra did not deserve to be the heir; Rhaenyra has not shown herself worthy of the Throne; Rhaenyra fled to Dragonstone and abandoned Viserys; it doesn't matter that Rhaenyra is the heir because she's boring; Rhaenyra shouldn't rule because she's not a true feminist; it doesn't matter that Rhaenyra is a woman, only that she is a stupid woman; it doesn't matter that Aegon is not suitable either, because he will have good advisors (Alicent and Otto...)

It all comes down to what Otto said - it doesn't matter that Rhaenyra would even be Jaehaerys reborn, she won't take the throne. Because she is a woman. And all the repeated accusations above boil down to the fact that she is a woman and Aegon is not, even if people pretend that it is not about misogyny at all.

Rhaenyra was a cupbearer from an early age. She participated in Small Council meetings and presented sensible solutions to matters. As heir to the throne and Princess of Dragonstone, she moved to Dragonstone to learn to rule on her own. She was familiar with the affairs of the capital. She did what every heir to the throne did. But somehow, she was the only one expected to PROVE that she DESERVED the throne. Hmm... I wonder why... It certainly wasn't related to the fact that she was a woman. After all, then people who say so would be openly sexists, right...?

TG stans try to explain themselves by saying that if the Greens had not stolen the throne, Rhaenyra would have murdered them and the kingdom would have rebelled. When Rhaenyra and Daemon wanted to negotiate at the beginning, and Otto had a plan to murder her entire family. If Rhaenyra had not returned to Dragonstone with her family and stayed as Alicent insisted, she would have been murdered. And if the throne were not stolen, who would rebel? More than 2/3 of the kingdom supported Rhaenyra, 53 houses vs 25 + the bribed Triarchy.

If someone prefers a drunken rapist without a shred of knowledge or preparation to a prepared heir, and only because the heir is a woman, he is simply a sexist who tries to hide it under a "but"

Additionally, they forget that although they claim that Viserys's peaceful rule is only thanks to Otto and Alicent,... Otto was released for over 10 years. For over 10 years, the Hand was Lyonel Strong, who, with his advice and approach, proved that he was worth more to the kingdom than Otto and Alicent combined.

[atopvisenyashill]

Some of the Greens are crazy. Oh Rhaenyra doesn't deserve the throne because she was a spoiled little girl that always hid behind daddy. She didn't 'earn' her position as heir. Like due, it is a medieval world and Aegon (the teenage drunk rapist) only is considered a king because he has a dick. Like even if Rhaenyra dutifully 'suffered', it still wouldn't affect her right to the throne one way or the other.

yeah, i mean i definitely have joked (i hope everyone realizes i'm joking, i do Not believe in the divine right of kings and generally i think most rich people should be [redacted]) about being ~deserving of power or whatever, but that's more in a narrative context (ie, Bran is on a Hero's Journey and He Will Earn His Ending Narratively, not that I actually believe he is divinely chosen - because he is but as we see in the cave in the true north, being divinely chosen isn't a good thing because the gods do not give a shit about you they want to eat you.

and definitely the most insane thing about hotd discourse (or one of the most insane things) is that people will really genuinely talk about rhaenyra not deserving the throne because she's ~spoiled~ and aegon has the right because he's the boy. and before someone argues "well actually we're saying-" no, i'm saying there are some crazy ass people who will genuinely sit there and argue with you that male primogeniture should be respected it is mind boggling.

but even beyond that, i find the "rhaenyra is spoiled she doesn't deserve it" thing to be a really disingenuous way of framing the whole conflict. first of all, No One Deserves To Be King Or Queen, nor, as you say, is something like that earned it's inherited. She doesn't need to earn it, she was chosen by her father and that's the end of the conversation because that's how shit like that works. and if you want to contrast that with the other people who are in the line of succession - whomst exactly "deserves" power? Aemond??? Daeron?????? "oh well Helaena" cool so you're saying women should in fact be included in the line of succession???? like, what a stupid way of framing this whole thing lmao, the only character who even marginally "deserves" power is like, jacaerys and rhaenys and corlys (and helaena) because when given power they don't immediately use it to brutally torment other people but when you say "jace would be a good ruler" people just focus in on the bastard thing and then I just kinda stop paying attention lajdsf. and beyond that, like, the heir isn't "hiding behind daddy" she is attempting to turn to her own damn father for help and that should be fine, actually??? to ask your goddamn dad who put you in this position to go "hey i need backup."

anyways yeah, every time someone is like "well the war is right rhaenyra doesn't deserve to be queen" neither did jaehaerys' bitch ass but he was the next oldest and got the throne because, ya know, deserve has very little to do with legal authority!

[gildinbainas]

Okay so I'm about to get on my soap box real quick.

Spoiler alert.

Okay so... I've seen a lot of discourse that suggests Rhaenyra was dumb for the stunt she pulled last night. I also saw a lot of posts saying that the scene shouldn't have happened at all. People were dumb fucks. The scene made no sense, ect ect. And I'm channeling my inner Otto Hightower here when I say you guys have no clue what you watched and it shows. Because not only was the scene necessary for Rhaenyra's character, but it also piggy backs off of the struggles Team Black has had from the beginning.

First of all, let's be clear about what the show is about. Because it's not necessarily about Team Black vs Team Green. That's how they sold the show but in reality the show is about two things: How Viserys I didn't stand on business and the confusion within the line of succession. THAT'S what the show is about.

Now what do I mean by this? When I say 'confusion in the line of succession' I mean that there were three valid outcomes as to who could have ruled after Viserys and none of them are inherently wrong.

Path 1 - Viserys never remarried and because h had a brother in Daemon, Viserys dies and Daemon inherits the throne. This would have likely been 100% okay with the Lords of Westeros despite many of them not caring for Daemon personally. But he was a MAN, and that mattered a LOT. So likely could have prevented a civil war here.

Path 2 - Viserys remarries ( which he did ) and had a son ( which also happened ). Because Viserys has a 1st born son now despite Rheanyra being his only child with his first wife, Aegon bumps Daemon back a spot in the line of succession thus making Aegon the rightful heir because: 1) First born son of second wife 2) He's a male which therefore makes his claim stronger in the eyes of the misogynistic lords of Westeros. Misogynistic might be a strong word since that's how things are done in that era. So we'll just say they like men best to rule. This path may have also prevented the kinslaying.

Path 3 - Viserys, despite being advised otherwise, declares his only daughter Rhaenyra the future queen of Westeros despite the crown never having a woman as a ruler. This path was definitely enough to incite a civil war, but not so much until Viserys remarried and had a son. If he doesn't remarry, Rhaenyra could make a decision to pacify the realm by marrying her uncle Daemon anyway and thus him being at her side may have been enough to calm the realm.

But you see the problem here? There's three paths --- none of which are wrong --- that could determine the next ruler. But which path has more weight? Is it the only daughter of the king's first wife? The younger brother? Or is it the child of the second wife? Arguments could be made for either, but Otto Hightower, knowing the lords and their traditions, wasn't exactly wrong when he advised the king about Rhaenyra. We all love our girl, but Viserys refusing to marry her and Damon only made it an uphill battle for her. And then Otto Hightower made moves and once Aegon was born, on could argue Rhaenyra didn't have a chance in hell.

So let's back track to last night's episode. There's the scene where all of the small council on Dragonstone are pushing Rhaenyra to strike with swords and dragons. They keep warning her that the time is now because Aegon's making moves. It's further proven they're actually right this time when her daughter Baela confirms the sighting of Sir Cristoph of the Oranges on his way towards Harrenhal. Despite them screaming about war, it's Rhaenys that reminds the queen that she shouldn't let her advisors bully her into doing what they want to do. She also convinces her to make certain there's no other path towards peace because a war between dragons won't end well. While Rhaenyra was resistant, she also, in good conscience, could not give the order to send dragons out without knowing for a fact that Alicent wouldn't be agreeable to peace.

Essentially, Rhaenyra's not Daemon. She's no expert in throwing on a hoodie and somehow becoming invisible in King's Landing. So what she came up with to seek Alicent worked well enough for the context as well as offered some parallels from their childhood. This meeting did not end how Rhaenyra hoped but it did confirm a few things.

Her father DID mention Aegon on his deathbed. Just not the one Alicent thought. Alicent is made to realize that she helped usurp a throne based on the assumption Viserys meant their son when in reality he was speaking of the prophecy that went absolutely nowhere on Game of Thrones --- The Prince Who Was Promised which definitely aint their Aegon. The look on Alicent's face said as much. She realized her error but also recognized the fact that she can't control the kids in her life. The king wants war and it has already begun. She also mentions that her father is no longer hand. Without Otto in place, Alicent wouldn't have any support to put Rhaenyra on the throne officially anyway. Criston Cole sure as shit's not going to agree to put the girl who wouldn't run off with him on the throne so essentially, this information is more so for Alicent to lose sleep over while their kin kill each other. ( As a side note, i've always wondered, in the context of the show, how people were quick to assume Viserys changed his mind when he dragged his ailing body out of bed to remind everyone that Rhaenyra would be queen. this was right before he died so he suddenly changed his mind hours later? this didn't seem odd to alicent?? )

Rhaenyra gets to see just how much things have changed between them. Now that she knows for a fact that Alicent has no power, she understands what Rhaenys was saying. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter who started the war because it's inevitable now. I also think it's in this moment that Rhaenyra realizes she waited TOO LATE. Had she responded initially while Otto Hightower was still HOTK, MAYBE they could have chatted and got to the bottom of what Viserys said on his deathbed. And this is a big maybe here, but Jaeherys would still be alive. Let's remember: show Aegon didn't want to be king anyway and Otto knew the truth. A lot of things would have had to go right for this to prevent civil war but not impossible.

I say all this to say that last night was to give Rhaenyra peace of mind about what's to come. Her sending her youngest children away means she understands they might not win this war. And to be honest, she has NO REASON to believe they have a chance given how the death of Jaeherys made her look and the fact that Aemond has Vhagar, who was actually Visenya's dragon during Aegon I reign. On the show, they only show his rider Laena, but Vhagar's been around for a while. Even Daemon knows it'll take 2-3 dragons to face that one alone. A suicide mission. Speaking of Daemon, she never knows if Daemon's going to be there for her because he has abandoned her before .And she still resents him for it and he finally feels guilt about it.

So just to see so much dialogue about how stupid it was for her to seek out her ex best friend... Just silly. Both women appear to care deeply for one another despite it all but now Rhaenyra has to swallow the pill that WAR IS HERE.

And...spoiler alert: it ends badly for all of them.

im done now.

[like-sands-of-time]

Re: Targaryen succession.

Alyssa is not older than Aemon. The birth order is Aegon (died in infancy), Daenerys (died as a child), Aemon, Baelon, Alyssa, Maegelle, Vaegon, Daella, Saera, Viserra, Gaemon (died in infancy), Valerion (died in infancy), and Gael. Alysanne wanted Daenerys to be named heir over Aemon, but Jaehaerys said she would be queen when she married Aemon, so he clearly intended for Aemon to be the ruler while Daenerys was just the consort. But then Daenerys died so the argument became moot.

In male-preference primogeniture (which is what most of Westeros uses) birth order *and* gender are important. It goes: eldest son (or his offspring if he's dead, same goes for the rest), younger son, eldest daughter, younger daughter, brother, sister, uncle, uncle's children aunt, aunt's children, etc...

The Targaryens never had a set line of succession before the Dance. Jaehaerys' older sister Rhaena had a pretty strong claim to the throne in her own right because she was the firstborn. Aegon the Conqueror (their grandfather) only had sons so this was the first time they had a female claim to the throne. If not her, then her daughters because their father was Aegon the Uncrowned, Jaehaerys' eldest brother. Jaehaerys did technically usurp his nieces (and arguably his older sister too) but he had more support among the lords during the war against Maegor so there was nothing Rhaena could do about it. She had no way to actually enforce her/her daughters' claims.

Based on male-preference primogeniture, Rhaenys *should* have been heir. Aemon's child comes before his brother or nephew even if that child is a daughter. Rhaenys was passed over solely because of her gender. Jaehaerys was extremely sexist to women especially his own female relatives and fought against women being able to inherit. He chose to name Baelon as his heir over Rhaenys when Aemon died and this decision was hugely controversial in-universe. It's not stated anywhere in canon, but a lot of fans speculate that Jaehaerys didn't want Rhaenys to inherit over Baelon because then he'd be acknowledging that his older brother's daughters had a stronger claim to the throne than he did.

Even though Westeros is a sexist place, lineage is also important. Baelon/Viserys' claim was based on gender, while Rhaenys' claim was based on lineage (being the daughter of the firstborn son). In the book, the great council was between Viserys (son of the second son) and Laenor (grandson of firstborn son), not Viserys and Rhaenys. Her claim was dismissed right away because she is a woman. Viserys was chosen as king mainly because 1. Laenor's claim derived from his mother's, but if Rhaenys' claim is already dismissed it doesn't mean much and 2. at the time Viserys was a grown man while Laenor was a child and many people wanted an adult in charge.

Rhaenys being passed is intentional commentary on how sexist tears families apart and causes society to stagnate.

Dude . Thank you for this answer. I apologize for having the birth order wrong, the website was off ! Thank you for clarifying.

I'm actually.. the idea that jaehaerys ignored rhaenys' direct claim so that it can't be questioned why he and alysanne became rulers over his eldest sister and/or her daughter is very clever and probably a good/realistic guess. It certainly makes more sense and feels more complex than just that he hates women I guess? Because we have so much proof of strong women in this family, including his own wife. I guess we can't know what aegon would have chosen if he had daughters only, or sons and daughters, but between his sons he did pick the eldest..?

Definitely true that this was the first time in their dynasty that the issue of succession was a problem but it's not like this family came from nowhere. They shouldn't have been so stumped lol. There must have been existing precedents, just like the standard of intermarriage and polygamy in their culture. Seems more like the king jaehaerys had a lot of kids, but not in the order he would have wanted, and therefore tried to move things around to his/the courts appeasement.

From what I read aegon preferred to leave his queens to the ruling and everyday building of the kingdom while he did the fighting, but that doesn't mean that he didn't feel he deserved the crown over his sisters simply because of his gender. In the event of a son and daughter between his two wives he probably would have married them so there was no competition, no bitterness between his wives either perhaps, but in the case of just daughters? I can't see any logical reason why he wouldn't pick his eldest daughter as a fair queen, unless she died.

For all of that, the fact that the actual decision was between rhaenys' son and viserys himself, not even rhaenys, in the council despite him being younger and the son of a second son and not already married to a powerful man/family is crazy lol. Rhaenys was bringing new power to the family and her children could have married viserys' own to bring things back together or whatever.

But actually, this does bring up another question: what is the reason for daemons first marriage? Is it just a 'sore loser' situation? He's down the line to the throne so just marry him off to someone so that all the grandchildren are spoken for before the king and queen die?

[deathcabindiagonalley]

Regarding the mention of misogyny - my bad, you didn’t mention it but the person I reblogged it from had mentioned it in the tags. That’s partly what I was addressing.

Also, I appreciate you disagreeing respectfully; I’ve put my responses under the cut.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, including the fact that at the end of the day, pretty much every woman is treated with misogyny in the books, including Daenerys. It’s a horrific, disgusting, misogynistic society that thinks women are second class, and every female character is treated that way. When I said it isn’t misogynistic to think about Daenerys, I meant specifically the idea that she might go mad, not her entire treatment.

I also don’t think Dany will definitely go mad, by the way. If you ask me, I genuinely hope she doesn’t. She’s been built up to be the most deserving ruler, is a descendant of slavers and has freed slaves, has learnt ruling the way others can only hope to. I hope with everything in my heart that she doesn’t go mad because, like you rightly said, we have Cersei already showing Aerys-like signs and we don’t need another.

But there’s a chance she might. It’s not hereditary madness, it’s a risk of incest. Joff went mad and his siblings didn’t. Rhaegar and Viserys both showed very different signs of the madness but they both had it. I get your point that it’s the intent with which people theorise about Dany’s madness - but depending on the way it’s written, if it happens, I don’t think it would necessarily be the most AU thing to happen.

Regarding whether fAegon will also go mad, you’re right that no one talks about it. But that’s mostly because a) the investment in him is really low atm, b) it’s fairly clear he will never actually sit the throne, and c) he’s almost definitely not a Targaryen - at least not as inbred as Daenerys as far as we know. With Jon, again, I agree - his family tree is the same as Dany’s and the likelihood of him going insane is just as high as hers and yet no one talks about it. We absolutely should.

Regarding theories of other dragonriders - yes, Bran is another common candidate, mostly because of Bloodraven’s comment of you will fly. It most likely refers just to the ravens and not a dragon, but I don’t necessarily think that speculating that Bran might warg into one necessarily takes away too much from Daenerys. There are two riderless dragons - for whatever reason, the only other foreshadowed candidates are men. (All the other characters you mentioned have to be crack theories because none of them make sense)

Finally, regarding the fact that the madness is foreshadowed. Again, the way the show did it was actually lazy writing imo. And if it happens in the book, it’ll take some really careful storytelling to ensure it doesn’t come across as a Reddit plot twist. Jon killing her and coming across like a tragic hero is one of the most garbage pieces of writing I have ever seen. I think people’s certainty of her madness is largely due to the fact that it happened in the show - that means nothing to me personally, and I still think there’s a very good chance it won’t happen. GRRM doesn’t do plot twists for the heck of it.

I think wanting Daenerys to go mad so that Jon/Tyrion/Bran save the day is unnecessary and a very shallow way of looking at the story. But speculating that she might, because even good people like Aegon V and Rhaegar showed signs of it, isn’t always biased.

The reason people want Dany to go mad is that she has the resources to solve everyone’s problems but she’s also an obstacle for a lot of the fandoms preferred endgames for their favs. Having her be a crazy evil tyrant lady is a convenient way to get her out of the way so that other characters can use her resources and still get their happy ending.

That’s why there are so many theories that involve other characters (usually the favorite characters of whoever made the theory) taking control of her dragons, and that’s why the show put the main conflict (the war against the WW) as a secondary conflict to the war over the iron throne. Use dany and her resources and then put her down like a mad dog so that the rest can get a happy-ish ending.

[esther-dot]

May I point out that Jon is dornish since he was born in Dorne? And also -irrelevant- is there any foreshadowing that Aegon will actually take KL? Not that he will become very popular, that's clear. Actually ruling though? I am not aware of specific extracts demonstrating it.

^ Me @ you anon!

That is what any follow up to either of my foodie posts (the blood oranges or dragon peppers) will delve into. Jon (and Jonsa) are definitely in the mix there!

That’s a good point about Aegon. Being beloved does not necessarily mean he will rule. I always assume he will take KL and be there and that’s involved in why Dany kabooms it, but I don’t know that there will be time for him to actually rule. I guess it’s similar to my feelings about Jon, that there is too much talk about him as a king for it to only be about parentage reveal, that he actually needs to become a king to justify it. That’s how I feel about Aegon too. Like this:

To me, this stuff needs to be about more than identity, but about what these characters do. We’re shown how he’s educated (according to Tyrion has a better education than most), and then he has that real world experience that someone like Robb didn’t have to make him a different kind of ruler, one of and for the people even, so I guess I personally would be frustrated if we don’t have that story beat where he’s ascended to power before tragedy. It will hit so much harder for Dany, whose story is ostensibly about the rise of House Targaryen to come into the situation when a good Targ has already taken the throne, could rule peacefully, but that isn’t what Dany wants. She wants to rule. So, instead of reinstating Targs, she plays a role in ending their dynasty forever.

I also think Aegon ruling is likely a step in getting to King Bran (link), so for several reasons, that’s what I would want. But that’s all personal feelings, not exactly foreshadowed (save Jon as Aemon), so I guess I shouldn’t bank on him ruling because we also have space issues to think about. Why, oh why, must you tread on my dreams, anon? 😩

[jackoshadows]

what i don’t understand is sansa stans who insist that she learnt from the best (cersei ans littlefinger) and so she’ll be an amazing ruler and player. first of all, when did she learn about the game from cersei? she was a hostage in kings landing, she wasn’t sitting in on small council meetings or anything and cersei definitely wasn’t telling her about all the moves she was making. the only time cersei really gives her ‘advice’ is during blackwater when she says that ‘tears/sex is a woman’s weapon’. regardless, cersei isn’t someone you want to be taught from, she makes terrible decision after terrible decision in affc. (since we’re on this topic, dany is the younger and more beautiful queen who foils cersei).

as for littlefinger, he’s definitely not a leader or ruler. he subtly manipulates things here and there and gets away with a lot of it because he stays under the radar. he’s not someone who inspires devotion for sure. nothing about the vale arc in affc puts sansa in an actual leadership position.

I agree it's best that no one learns how to be a ruler from Cersei Lannister, considering how much she messes up in AFfC.

And yes, it’s my opinion that Sansa's arc is leading towards outwitting Littlefinger and understanding how to play the game rather than ruling. And with two books left to go, she still has a lot of learning to do and being able to process the information available to her, analyze it and connect the dots and use the data to her advantage.

I just finished my ADwD and TWoW sample chapter re-reads so a rather long essay under the cut.

Sansa did acknowledge early on that unlike Cersei, if she were to become queen, she would prioritize getting the people's love over their fear - like the Tyrells did. But unlike the majority opinion of fandom, I think that this points to Sansa giving more importance to PR than to actual ruling. That it was better to be a loved monarch than a feared one.

It’s funny that Sansa stans often point the finger at Dany as being narcissistic, entitled and arrogant, when the few comments that Sansa makes about being queen revolve around her.

“Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace. ” - Sansa, AGoT

“ If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.”  - Sansa, ACoK

Compare her quotes to those of current leaders/rulers in the books:

A good lord protects his people, he reminded himself. - Bran, ACoK

“Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?“ - Daenerys, ASoS

“And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all.” Davos, ASoS

I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."  - Stannis, ASoS

“I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord— what are these wildlings, if not men?”  - Jon Snow, ADwD

The other leaders in the quotes are putting the people first, prioritizing the people’s needs first no matter how much it affects the rulers themselves. Jon’s decision to let the Wildlings through the wall is necessary, but highly unpopular among his men. And ruling is more than just being beloved by the people -

"Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel,” the old man had said, “the same council that I one gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took the ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill boy and let the man be born.” The old man felt Jon’s face. “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” - Jon Snow, ADwD

This is the hard part of ruling be it in the middle ages or now. It’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler. It’s complicated and it’s hard.  How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about  the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. - GRRM

In this context, Sansa’s quote about being queen comes off as naive, ignorant, fairy taleish, like the queens in her stories - where everyone loves the queens and that’s all that’s necessary to be one.

It’s easy for Sansa stans to nitpick and criticize each and every one of Dany’s decisions and then praise future best queen Sansa - who has done absolutely nothing as a leader and has instead thus far served as an uncritical narrator to events around her. We don’t know what kind of leader Sansa would be because she has never been put in those situations or even shown an aptitude for strategic thinking.

Let me use an example I came across while recently re-reading ADwD and TWoW sample chapters. TWoW spoilers - if you don’t want to be spoiled on TWoW, please read no further.

-------------------------------------------------------

In ADwD, Jon is confronted with food shortage if they let the Wildlings through the wall:

“If we had sufficient coin, we could buy food from the south and bring it in by ship,” the Lord Steward said. We could, thought Jon, if we had the gold, and someone willing to sell us food. Both of those were lacking. Our best hope may be the Eyrie. The Vale of Arryn was famously fertile and had gone untouched during the fighting. - Jon Snow, ADwD

I have already written extensively on Jon’s political know-how of the North and using it in his strategizing and planning of Stannis’ campaign. But here we see that his knowledge extends to the south, where, knowing that the Vale stayed neutral during the WOT5K and it’s geography of being fertile, he sees it as a possible source to buy food for the Wall.

Now let’s go to the Vale in book 6, TWoW, Alayne’s sample chapter. After being called a bastard by Harry the Heir, a hurt Sansa goes looking for Littlefinger and chances upon a scheme of price gouging:

Near the bottom, she heard Lord  Grafton’s booming voice, and followed.

“The  merchants are clamoring to buy and the lords are clamoring to sell,”  the Gulltowner was saying when she found them. Though not a tall man, Grafton was wide, with thick arms and shoulders.  His hair was a dirty blond mop.  “How am I to stop that, my lord?”

“Post guardsmen on the docks. If need be, seize the ships. How does not matter, so long as no food leaves the Vale”

“These prices, though,” protested fat Lord Belmore,” 

“These prices are more than fair. Wait. If need be, buy the food yourself and keep it stored. Winter is coming. Prices must go higher.”

“Perhaps,”  said Belmore, doubtfully. “Bronze Yohn will not wait, ” Grafton complained. “He need not ship through Gulltown, he has his own ports. Whilst we are hoarding our harvest, Royce and the other Lords Declarant will turn theirs into silver, you may be sure of that.”

“Let  us hope so,”  said Petyr. “When their granaries are empty, they will  need every scrap of that silver to buy sustenance from us. And now if  you will excuse me, my lord, it would seem my daughter has need of me.”

“Lady Alayne,” Lord Grafton said. “You look bright-eyed this morning.” ” You  are kind to say so, my lord. Father, I am sorry to disturb you, but I  thought you would want to know that the Waynwoods have arrived.”

We are now in book 6 territory, this would be the point where a future queen/leader Sansa reflects on what she just saw - Littlefinger is hoarding grain and letting Royce and others sell theirs so that he can later increase the prices for demand from a starving populace and have the rest of the Vale Lords be dependent on him and with winter coming, there is currently much demand for the grain.

This would be where, if GRRM is writing for the future leader of the North, Sansa would wonder what is happening in the North with respect to the food situation since she just heard that merchants are clamoring for grain and winter is coming. Or she would think on LF’s scheme - is it a good plan or a bad plan? Does she think that Yohn Royce is right to sell his grain? What is her view on hoarding all the food for price gouging while people possibly starve elsewhere? What does she think of starving the populace for profit? Does she approve? Or does she think it’s ethically wrong?

We get no answers to these questions to give us a hint of what kind of ruler future best queen Sansa will be. It’s a blank slate because while Sansa acts as a narrator here and describes one of LF’s little schemes, she herself as no opinion on it. Instead Sansa’s immediate concern when speaking to Littlefinger is that Harry the Heir called her a bastard in front of everyone. Meanwhile Dany in ADwD:

Skahaz had been named Warden of the River, with charge of all the ferries, dredges, and irrigation ditches along the Skahazadhan for fifty leagues, but the Shavepate had refused that ancient and honorable office, as Hizdahr called it, preferring to retire to the modest pyramid of Kandaq.

Mounted men were of more use in open fields and hills than in the narrow streets and alleys of the city. Beyond Meereen's walls of many-colored brick, Dany's rule was tenuous at best. Thousands of slaves still toiled on vast estates in the hills, growing wheat and olives, herding sheep and goats, and mining salt and copper. Meereen's storehouses held ample supplies of grain, oil, olives, dried fruit, and salted meat, but the stores were dwindling. So Dany had dispatched her tiny khalasar to subdue the hinterlands, under the command of her three bloodriders, whilst Brown Ben Plumm took his Second Sons south to guard against Yunkish incursions.

The most crucial task of all she had entrusted to Daario Naharis, glib-tongued Daario with his gold tooth and trident beard, smiling his wicked smile through purple whiskers. Beyond the eastern hills was a range of rounded sandstone mountains, the Khyzai Pass, and Lhazar. If Daario could convince the Lhazarene to reopen the overland trade routes, grains could be brought down the river or over the hills at need …

The sea provides all the salt that Qarth requires, but I would gladly take as many olives as you cared to sell me. Olive oil as well."

"I have none to offer. The slavers burned the trees." Olives had been grown along the shores of Slaver's Bay for centuries; but the Meereenese had put their ancient groves to the torch as Dany's host advanced on them, leaving her to cross a blackened wasteland. "We are replanting, but it takes seven years before an olive tree begins to bear, and thirty years before it can truly be called productive. What of copper?"

Sansa does not come anywhere close to Dany and Jon in terms of leadership and that she’s so often pushed as this future queen in fandom, including by bnfs and so called asoiaf experts, is baffling, frustrating and hilarious.

What, if any, attributes does Sansa have to even be a peacetime ruler? After the war means rebuilding from scratch, making deals, hard bargaining, strategizing, using political tools, rebuilding the economy for war torn lands, get in the food, grow the food - precisely the kind of thing Dany is doing in Meereen. Or Jon thinking of building green houses in the Gift to grow food.

But Sansa building a snow model of Winterfell means that she’s the best qualified peace time ruler? Reddit dudebros and so called tumblr feminists united in wanting female characters who wield soft power and uphold the patriarchy as future rulers.

Even when it comes to personal growth, while Sansa has come a long way from her AGoT days, she still has some catching up to do with her peers. After getting hold of LF, Sansa complains that Harry is a horrible person for calling her a bastard.

Come,” Petyr said, “walk with me.” He took her by the arm and led her deeper into the vaults, past an empty dungeon. “And how was your first meeting with Harry the Heir?”

“He’s horrible.”

“The world is full of horrors, sweet. By now you ought to know that. You’ve seen enough of them.”

“Yes,” she said, “but why must he be so cruel? He called me your bastard. Right in the yard, in front of everyone.”

Now, personally, this is the point where I would like some introspection from Sansa. Remember when Sansa called out Jon as a jealous bastard in front of her friends in AGoT and Arya defended him?

Sansa sighed as she stitched.  “Poor Jon,” she said.  “He gets jealous because he's a bastard.”

“He’s our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

“Our half brother,” Sansa corrected, soft and precise. - Arya, AGoT

Considering the way Sansa ignored Joffrey’s attack on Arya, it’s a good bet that if Harry the Heir had called out Jon Snow as a bastard in front of everyone in AGoT, Sansa would not have an issue with it. Now that she is being insulted as one, she gets to experience the hurt that Jon felt everyday growing up in Winterfell as a real bastard.

But even here, she refuses to scrutinize the situation more than simply getting angry at being called a bastard. Sansa is often held up as this compassionate, kindest person, ‘beacon of hope for the future’, a queen who cares for the masses etc. But where is her questioning why the classist prejudice against bastards is in itself wrong?

She is angry that she is being called a bastard, she is not angry that bastards are treated as less than. She doesn’t question the societal prejudice against bastards, only angry that she has to pretend to be one and be insulted as one. She doesn’t spare a second reflecting on her bastard brother Jon Snow or question her low opinion of bastards:

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn’t been some mistake. - Sansa, AGoT

And that’s the difference I see between Sansa and characters like Dany, Arya, Jon, Brienne and even with Tyrion and Penny. While GRRM interrogates Westerosi society prejudices, feudalism, classism, sexism, slavery, ableism, bigotry, the effects of war on the small folk etc with these other characters, Sansa rarely reflects on these issues. That’s why it makes no sense when epithets like ‘embodiment of hope for the future’ is used to describe the character. Hope for whom? The small folk? The patriarchy? The feudal lords?

Sansa being nice to people like the stuttering Ser Wallace is held up as her being the kindest ever. But Jon is nice to Shireen, Arya is kind to Weasel, Jaime is kind to Tyrion. Why is kindness and compassion only highlighted for Sansa, like some unique feature of hers when many characters, even the villains, exhibit kindness?

This is Jon Snow in ADwD

“I see what you are, Snow. Half a wolf and half a wildling, baseborn get of a traitor and a whore. You would deliver a highborn maid to the bed of some stinking savage. Did you sample her yourself first?” He laughed. “If you mean to kill me, do it and be damned for a kinslayer. Stark and Karstark are one blood.”

“My name is Snow.”

“Bastard.”

“Guilty. Of that, at least.”  - Jon Snow, ADwD

This is Sansa Stark in TWoW:

Ser Harrold looked down at her coldly. “Why should it please me to be escorted anywhere by Littlefinger’s bastard?”  

“Yes,” she said, “but why must he be so cruel? He called me your bastard. Right in the yard, in front of everyone.”  - Alayne, TWoW

Sansa in TWoW is as hurt by the bastard moniker as Jon Snow was in AGoT when addressed as such by Tyrion. She’s emotionally where Jon Snow was in AGoT, while Jon has matured enough to not care for such insults anymore. And this is book 6! I guess it makes sense considering Jon is 16 -17 and Sansa would be 13 - 14 years old, making her younger than him in AGoT. But this is why the whole ‘Jon should take Sansa’s advice to rule because she’s the smartest ever!’ trash the show pushed to hype up Sansa is complete nonsense.

I don’t know how many chapters GRRM will be devoting to Sansa in the Vale in TWoW, but there’s still a lot of growth and character development pending for book Sansa. As I have always said, Sansa has a lot of information but she rarely if ever introspects on what she has heard and seen. She knows that LF last had Jeyne Poole but at one point wonders where Jeyne Poole is... Just ask LF dammit! She knows that Lysa had Jon Arryn poisoned on LF’s say so and knows that SweetRobin is being dosed with dangerous levels of Sweetsleep and that LF is banking on his death and yet thinks that SweetRobin will be okay. She needs to start putting two and two together to come up with four and I suspect that in itself will take up the whole of TWoW.

So will Sansa become any kind of queen or ruler? No. If she survives the books, I can see her being Lady of the Vale and be moving the chess pieces around. I can see her gaining agency and maybe even be the real power in the Vale aka Littefinger. Just like Jon, Arya, Bran and Dany I think Sansa will be a darker character in TWoW. The game of thrones cannot be played honorably and she will need to get her hands dirty to outwit LF and take him down at his own game.

The point where Sansa simply stops narrating what she sees and actually starts analyzing what she sees in her POV chapters is when the student will become the master and I am excited to see that happening.

[him-e]

Your replies to people's asks are so thoughtful and incisive. Regarding the lesson on power + the trappings of power you felt Dany was meant to confront, I think GRRM has consciously been returning to this lesson not once or twice but repeatedly throughout the book. In fact, it's felt like a central pillar of the series. For Dany, victory or 'peace' at the expense of true innocents - as opposed to soldiers like the Tarlys - is something that's always on the table while she has dragons.

Thank you! And I agree, Martin loves to reiterate the saga’s central themes through different characters, and “what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?” “Everything” is definitely one of those. Dany makes the question particularly poignant because she’s not merely motivated by political ambition or a sense of dynastic duty, but also by a genuine desire to make the world a better place and to fix injustices. Can you sacrifice some innocents to ultimately save many, many more? Good questions rarely have a simple answer.

Wrt Dany repeating Stannis, maybe the point Martin wants to make is that power inherently corrupts, kinda like how no one can learn to use the ring for good in lotr. Could be that he’s pouring cold water on any hope of an enlightened monarch thru Dany’s example. Then again there have been good targ kings in the past so I guess that’s kinda contradictory. Idk I’m not opposed to a tragic arc in theory, it’s kind of a refreshing contrast to boring empowerment narratives, but execution matters a lot

Yeah, the whole message is undermined by the fact that Martin doesn’t seem to be introducing an alternative to monarchy in this story. Even when we have examples of oligarchy or pseudo-democracy like in some of the Free Cities, it’s rarely framed in a positive way. I'm also not a fan of the idea of power being inherently corruptive, because it seems to negate the importance of personal choice and free will, which I think is a central theme in the series.

re: dragons, there’s always been spec in the asoiaf fandom about how nobody should be able to wield *that* kind of power. The problem is that someone, in Westeros’ history, did, successfully and without being punished by the narrative. *points at Aegon the Conqueror*

The idea that Aegon could force people on their knees using dragons, thrive, and start a three-centuries long dynasty, but Dany’s attempt to do the same needs to be crushed before she actually has a shot at ruling the realm doesn’t sit well with me. There’s something inherently revolutionary about the fact that the one with so much power is now a woman---a woman who grew up in rags and knows what it means to be hungry, powerless, victimized. The fact that this woman’s shot at ruling is stopped where many male rulers in the series have effectively thrived using similar amounts of violent power... isn’t that great. Especially considering that the other “queen” character is getting crushed too.

[horizon-verizon]

If we discount Helaena, Rhaenyra is by far the most useless adult dragonrider in the war. Even teenagers like 15-year old Jace and Daeron or 14-year old Baela with young comparatively small dragons (Moondancer was barely able to withstand Baela’s weight and fly) contributed much more to their side’s causes than the queen too-traumatized-to-fly-a-dragon.

A good example was her sending Rhaenys to die instead of going herself or allowing her sons to go & help. Corlys was enraged she sent Rhaenys but wouldn’t risk her own life or her sons to even the odds.

I always get confused how much time was between Rhaenyra's stillbirth labors and Rook's Rest bc the timeline is not so solid when described in the actual book, but Rhaenyra was, again, recovering from that Visenya-birth...("The Red Dragon and the Gold"):

And, anon, leaders (not commanders, I mean the actual rulers) in medieval wars didn't lead armies as often as you may think precisely bc of what happens to Crispy!Aegon.

Plus, none of them thought that Aegon would be there with Aemond-Vhagar, bc again, Helaena wasn't considered an actual player/possible protector and the any other dragons the greens had otherwise that they could use was Vhagar/Sunfyre. Aegon essentially left KL vulnerable to attack when he left for Rook's Rest with Aemond. Rhaenrya, Corlys, Rhaenys, all the rest most likely believed Aegon would at least stay behind for that reason alone...and the text explicitly states that Rhaenys might have had a chance against Vhagar (Criston's aggressive plan to "trap" whoever came to Rook's Rest basically by ambush):

(one bc she is a consummate rider, having ridden for far longer than Aemond who has to wield a much larger dragon -- Meleys was known for her speed...two, Rhaenyra would have definitely died and then what? Jacaerys rules bc we see how competent he was? Why do people want Rhaenyra to die so bad and for a teen boy, no matter how great he is, to take that responsibility on so bad...look as what happened to Jaehaerys and and look how that turned out for this guy who had such an enormous weight on him that motivated him to be...what he was!!! And then while I think there was a good possibility of Jace still having supporters like Rhaenyra,) it would be--for a time--destabilizing the blacks if their Queen died in the middle of the war...and it's still also one dragon down).

My past two posts (POST #1 -- POST #2) abt GRRM's writing of Rhaenyra was never an invitation or admittance of her being totally useless...bc she nor Syrax were even as they were comparatively not as active in shaping the blacks' strategies against the greens until post-KL takeover. She still made necessary decisions that were NOT black-white solveable. Helaena was never encouraged to actually fight and after B&C there was no way she ever could. Whereas if given more time, I'm pretty sure Rhaenrya could have (KL armor and seating).

Then I could be proven wrong abt her not being more like a Rhaneys the Conqueror and actually using Syrax for war and more than laying eggs...but again, GRRM didn't allow the time to stretch out to accommodate that possibility bc he wanted Rhaenyra to be too entrenched in her own grief. Visenya was her idol.

It's very possible that she was willing but had no opportunity/mental space in lieu of her own kids dying (doing a lot of rethinking here since a few past, even earlier posts). Which, again, I'm fine with HotD Rhaenyra flaming bitches but not the swordwork necessarily still.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

@cleverjonquil reblogged the post “cleverjonquil: Unpopular opinion but...” and added:

Hi. Yes, I’m 100% aware GRRM has control of the story and I wish he’d stop fridging and ignoring the moms/wives. I’m not hating on Dany here; it says outright on my bio I like her. I’m not sure where you got anything about “good victims” (yikes), but it says more about your own views of survivors who didn’t have the privilege of fighting back like Elia and Rhaella than mine.

Your passive-aggressive condescension is unnecessary, thanks, especially for a post that didn’t require a reply that deep to begin with. I’m allowed to care about female characters GRRM and fans deem unimportant, as well as criticize Aerys and Rhaegar and their horrible treatment of Elia (and Dany’s own victim blaming of her) and Dany’s disinterest in learning the truth, but hope she does one day when she’s ready.

Again, considering that 90% of what we know of Elia and Rhaella in the books (excluding TWOIAF) is because of Dany asking questions about them, I really don’t think she’s disinterested. Viserys either didn’t know or had only limited and biased information, and since him she’s had no one to ask except Barristan, who is (a) reluctant to speak ill of the king he served, (b) reluctant to bring up the issue of his own participation in ignoring Rhaella’s abuse and Aerys’s madness, and (c) deeply fanboys Rhaegar. Also, we can’t go entirely Watsonian here, I’m sorry. Because GRRM is unconcerned with dead ladies, or because he prefers to slowly dribble out information about Rhaella and Elia because of secrets/spoilers/writing style -- not to mention information about Aerys and Rhaegar (who Dany has also asked Barristan about) -- therefore the fact that Dany hasn’t asked and received a giant infodump learning everything about everybody and who she should admire or not, is on him. “When she’s ready” unfortunately depends entirely on “when GRRM is ready to tell the readers”.

I actually didn’t think your post was a purposeful anti-Dany one (although the “she never thinks of her mom” made me wonder, as well as your apparent belief she sees Aerys as a role model, and this post’s “her disinterest in learning the truth” doesn’t help I’m afraid), and sorry that other people may be thinking such. But certainly people should care about characters that GRRM may not? (Like, the reason I know exactly what Elia and Rhaella info we have, and what POV chapters it comes from, is because I care about them too.) And god knows I’m critical of Rhaegar, let alone Aerys (???), and certainly I think anybody (please, everybody) should feel the same? And in-world, I hope that Dany gets all the info she needs about all her family, whenever GRRM deigns to give it to her, sigh. (Also note, re her learning about Aegon and Jaehaerys et al, that was referring to GRRM's statement that she’d benefit from reading Fire & Blood.)

However, I was very confused by the thought that Dany would do better by emulating Elia and Rhaella’s good qualities, when the good qualities we know they have are ones she already has. Thus, to clarify, the “good victims” paragraphs were a highly sarcastic and confused reach for anything else that could distinguish Elia and Rhaella’s known good qualities from Dany’s own good qualities, my apologies for lack of clarity and bad impressions there. Just a bewildered “the only serious difference I can see is that Elia and Rhaella were silenced and never achieved agency, and you surely can't mean you want Dany to emulate that when she already has achieved agency? I know there are fans out there who say they’d like Dany better if she suffered in silence, if she shut up and sat down and stopped fighting and was a “good girl”, dutiful and quiet, say you're not one of them?” (And yes, sorry, it was written condescendingly as well as sarcastically, because I really dislike those sorts of fans.) It's not intentionally victim-blaming or disparaging the value of survivors who can’t fight back, not in the slightest, but rather, being boggled at the thought of that character element as something for Dany to emulate, when (among many other things) that’s not her character type. (Not to mention being boggled at the thought that Dany sees Aerys as a role model, but I already disputed that.) But I’ve edited in a line for clarification, hopefully.

Nevertheless, apologies for painting you with an anti-Dany brush if that was not your intention. (Though I’m not going to apologize for replying “that deep”, considering that’s just me, lol.) And despite any other distractions in my reply, I hope that you saw that Dany is interested in learning about her mother and sister-in-law, that most of what we know about Elia and Rhaella comes through her POV, and that she also shares their good qualities. She should definitely keep them, while she gathers leadership skills and other qualities of a ruler as well...

[fandomsetall]

GoT S8E6 was good

I know, I know. I might be the minority here, especially on Tumblr. But this episode felt like a good ending.

There are still Dany Stans complaining about how they didn't see Mad Dany coming or how Jon is a traitor. The thing is- I knew Dany was way too ruthless to become a ruler since way back in S2.

I also didn't think that she would burn down innocent people. That was certainly out of character.

But people saying that she deserved better? Deserved to rule Westeros?

Let me turn on the argument- had Dany been a man, would you still say that she deserved to be a ruler?

She deserved to at least be happy, right? Sure. But the peaceful path is not what she chose. Even with all the warnings from her advisors, she kept pushing forward into this direction. I can blame the writing for this, but can you honestly tell me that you don't believe Dany will do whatever she thinks is right? Even if people warn her against it? Especially when she is angry and grieving?

And she was never the rightful heir. Not because Aegon was, but because the throne had been taken by Robert Baratheon. One dynasty had ended and another had begun. That is how it goes.

Jon doesn't deserve this outpour of anger. I am not a Jon fan, but he did what was best in the interest of people. Dany was becoming a tyrant. He had to kill her- and this ran parallel to Jaime and The Mad King.

Dany wasn't mad. She was ruthless, in grief and delusional. Dany wasn't a villain. She definitely wasn't a hero. She was human. And humans have flaws.

This episode was simple and closer to the characters. This season might not have been great, and they did my boy Jaime wrong, but that doesn't mean it lost.

Dany was a good person, and this is coming from someone who wasn't her fan. But the signs of her thinking that she is the only good and right person were always there. Mix that with power and strength and you will get someone who definitely will become cruel. Not because she wanted to, but because she though it was the right thing to do.

Sometimes, being kind is more important that being right. Dany was so fixated on being right- the kind of right that only she could see- she forgot the other part. And this was always there. Sure the execution was... mishandled to put it mildly.

And I don't get the sexism accusations against Game of Thrones? When I started watching it, I knew that this show is not going to overthrow the patriarchy and sexism from Westeros would be gone. The show is not sexist. Westeros is sexist. That world is sexist.

And as our world can tell us, sexism doesn't disappear overnight.

I am glad how they gave us strong female characters. As a woman, it made me happier than you could guess. To see them struggle and survive, to see their gray shades, it was absolutely fantastic.

Logically sure a lot of things didn't make sense.

For me personally- this show was a 60-40. It won 60% of the time and lost the rest. Still good, imo. Obviously, I am judging this season based on it's previous seasons.

Also what was the point of Jon being a Taragaryen? Not much really, it was just his identity. Especially considering how Jon didn't connect too much with that side of himself, I am not surprised it was pretty much pointless.

What was the point of Jon's resurrection? Now that is a valid question. Maybe because he had to be the one to kill Dany?

What about the prophecies? Idk man.

Also I laughed when Tyrion suggested Bran be the king. But it also kind of made sense later- Bran would never be interested in this. His greed would never ruin him. And the corruption of power has been a running theme in both the books and the show. Hell maybe, doing this will bring his humanity back a little.

Also don't come at me with what the actors think, because a story is open to interpretation for all. Just because someone plays a character doesn't mean she is the only one who knows them intimately. I truly love Emilia Clarke, she is absolutely wonderful, but I have to disagree with her vision for Daenerys.

And now my essay (??) has ended. Tumblr is dark and full of angry people so I am going to log off now.

Oh one more thing- Dany didn't fight the white walkers only because she was kind. You all think the white walkers would capture Winterfell, and then chill and drink wine? They wouldn't go for the rest of the world? If she was to be queen, she would actually have to save people first.