#and I know some people like the Ship of Achilles and Deidamia

[jules-ln]

I have the headcanon that Achilles and Deidamia didn't love each other

They were simply horny teenagers with not enough parental supervision

Like I imagine, both Achilles and Deidamia being like 16 and saying "She's the love of my life, I want to marry her!!!" And "But Dad I love him!"

And then later when they're both 20, they cringe at the memory and realize that no, they were just teens and very horny

Bonus points if Patroclus makes fun of him for that lol

[maruyaaya]

talking about my neoptolemus/telemachus wip bc idk how to shut the fuck up!!!

SO the dynamic between neoptolemus and telemachus in my wip is essentially that neoptolemus is in love with telemachus from their first meeting, but he’s convinced that telemachus is too good for him and that he destroys everything he touches so he masks that with cruelty and pretends that he hates telemachus. telemachus is at first, drawn to neo and really likes him, but then neo starts being cruel in his attempts to push telemachus away and that gets telemachus to genuinely hate neo. it’s like a one-sided enemies to lovers. neo wants really badly to hate telemachus, but he can’t find it in him to not love this boy who he thinks shines like the sun. telemachus, on the other hand, just hates neo and he blames neo for ruining this friendship that they could have had.

their relationship basically flips back and forth between neo saying some unintentionally soft shit and when telemachus is like “what” neo just immediately says “but you’re also a weak dumbass so. fuck you.” neo is such a girlfailure in this fic he doesn’t know how to handle emotions AT ALL. he’s grown very special to me in the course of writing this fic which is very funny bc prior to starting this fic, i actually did not care for neo in the slightest before i started writing this fic. i only cared abt him as an extension to achilles bc achilles is my fav greek mythology figure ever. THEN AGAINST ALL ODDS, neo charmed me while writing this fic. like these are some tweets from my priv twt where you can see me progress from not caring at all abt neo to seeing him as my little babygirl son

so yes, i was charmed by my socially awkward son neoptolemus. he’s such a little freak. my favourite headcanon is that maybe in another less angsty fic than the one i’m writing rn, neo wants to flirt with telemachus and bc he’s emotionally inept like his father, he decides the best way to do that is to ask telemachus to spar with him and bc he hates losing, he goes all out and beats telemachus up. it’s like

neo, internally, after punching telemachus in the face: yes, our courtship is progressing magnificently

telemachus, clutching his bloody nose, trying to figure out why neo hates him:

LIKE THEYRE SO FUNNY TO ME!! i love them sm.

but anyways back to the specifics of my fic. they don’t get to be quite as silly in my fic. essentially what happens is that neo hears of odysseus returning to ithaca and decides to visit. there, he meets telemachus and is immediately charmed because he’s such a little loser. telemachus invites neo back to the palace for dinner and neo ends up getting in an argument with odysseus that ends with him going “I WILL TRAIN TELEMACHUS.” and odysseus does not want that to happen so ofc, telemachus says he wants neo to train him.

and the plotline is basically neo and telemachus’ relationship progressing as neo trains telemachus. it’s full of a lot of really sexually charged sparring and angry arguments.

some of you may be wondering why i refer to neoptolemus as neoptolemus always and not pyrrhus even though pyrrhus is his original name. well in my head, pyrrhus is the name that he’s given at birth by deidamia and neoptolemus is the name he takes up when he goes to war because he feels like he’s become a different person. neo struggling between his two names is actually going to be quite a plot point in this fic

because this fic is just as much a character study of neoptolemus as it is a ship fic between neo and telemachus. i spend a lot of time exploring his relationship with his parents and also his relationship with odysseus. it’s neo’s desire to piss off odysseus in the first place that gets him to stay in ithaca with telemachus. i really want to spend a lot of time exploring neo as a character bc so often, people write him as just being needlessly cruel, but i feel like it’s important to remember that he was just a kid when he was brought into war. he has this legacy from achilles that he needs to live up to, but he’s never even met achilles and how are you supposed to live up to the legacy of the greatest of the greeks? how would it ever be possible to make someone like achilles proud? neo’s grappling with his self-worth and identity a lot during this fic.

so far this fic is about 22k words and it’s very special to me. in the vision i’ve created in my head, we’re about 1/4 done but i make no promises because you all know me and how awful i am at sticking to the word counts that i imagine. it could be much shorter, it could be much longer. i don’t make plans. i just sit down in front of my google docs and bleed.

i’ve also been making plans for a little modern au neo/telemachus fic BECAUSEEE i really want to write that little neo and achilles exchange that i mentioned in my last post abt neomachus (teleneo? idk what their ship name is but i like calling them neomachus). my vice is creating wips and never finishing them tho so idk when (or if) i’ll write that modern au.

i guess i’ll end this little infodump off with some fun exchanges between neo and telemachus that i really like in this fic. they’re just so special to me <3

i will absolutely talk abt this fic more in the future as i continue writing bc im so obsessed with it rn. i will do my best to finish it asap but every time i think more about it, it gets longer.

(ALSO the title of the fic is “someday i know you’ll come to your senses” which comes from the song senses by mico who is, yes, the guy who plays telemachus in epic the musical. what can i say? i like it when things come full circle (it’s also a really fucking good song. everyone stream internet hometown hero by mico))

(none of these excerpts are edited or anything btw. if there are any typos please keep that to yourself or i might die of embarrassment)

[wordsmithic]

Hi, sorry if this comes out as a ramble, but your Troy ask made me rewatch the movie (for the umpteenth time, lol), and it brought a lot of old feelings back, both good and bad. The good is how much I adored the Iliad as a child and that's something that still thrives today—since I was a kid, I loved Greek mythology in general, partly because I'm Palestinian/a fellow Eastern Mediterranean, so there is a lot of overlap in our histories, cultures, customs and myths, but the Iliad has always been a favorite. Hektor is my favorite character (and I love him and Andromache), but I also have an immense soft spot for Briseis... and now to get to the bad, rewatching Troy reminded me how a lot of people erase her and her role—and her romance—to Achilles in modern retellings. Now, I'm not going to argue which Achilles ship is the best (especially because that man is a hoe, if we're being honest), I don't care. My problem is the modern erasure of Briseis and the other women in Achilles's life that are romantically entangled with him being reduced to, "He's gay, actually." It reads biphobic if you believe him queer (Patroclus too, who had many named women concubines/slaves), first off, misogynist second. He has a son with his foster "sister," Deidamia, and in some versions even married. In the Iliad especially, Patroclus tells Briseis Achilles will marry her and Achilles himself refers to her as his wife/bride, stopping a whole war when she's taken, and she's even allowed to aid in Patroclus's funeral rights. In some versions, Achilles falls for Polyxena, and tries to make peace with Troy so he can marry her. In the afterlife, Achilles chooses Helen as his wife for some reason. Just... all these women, with complex situations and feelings, are all reduced or erased in modern tellings (and usually for a man/Patroclus), and it makes me want to scream. People use the excuse of, "We don't like the romantic situation they're in," but then claim to "better" it by... erasing or reducing these women and their complex roles and feelings from the story overall? Brieseis, for example, mutually loved Achilles and saw him as a husband... he also killed her first husband and brothers, and you can argue part of her love is out of the need for survival. Yet, she greatly mourned him when he was killed, too. And if exploring this complexity is still not your yum, what about Polyxena? Wouldn't she fit the girlboss archetype of using Achilles' affections to gain his trust, before stabbing him in the back (literally)? Or Deidamia, who's young and left at home, bereft of her husband and son? Heck, try and fill in the gaps how Achilles x Hellen happened, if you must. All these women have an important role in the story, and to Achilles, that could be explored—but people don't because they dismiss what's already there or don't know anything about The Iliad outside modern retellings (mainly The Song of Achilles). So, we get people claiming things that are untrue ("Achilles and Patroclus are exclusively gay!"... in some myths, they're actually relatives/distant cousins, fun fact 😭), and acting like they fixed something by "adding" onto "flat female characters" in a way that reads inauthentic and ignorant to the source material. I get wanting to prop up one's chosen ship, it's just the hypocrisy of promising to be more progressive in one area, but diminishing the progressiveness of another, that kills me. Anyway! Sorry for the rant, I just have a lot of feelings I wanted to share because of the movie and I know you've talked about all this before—it's just something hard to discuss on the internet without people coming down your throat 🥲. Anyhow, justice for Briseis, is my rallying cry, I love her so much, queen made a whole war stop for her and managed to escape from Agamemnon unscathed. Queen who launched a thousand ships to my heart 🫶🏻.

I'm glad you re-watched it! It's a beloved of many Greeks since the movie is quite epic and makes you understand some of the original's glory. Hector, Andromache and Briseis are some of my fave characters in the movie, and it made me also look out for those characters when they appear in the text.

Btw, I would love to know a Palestinian's pov on our shared traditions and myths, how do you guys learn the Greek myths, what parts of them have had perhaps an affect on your heritage and since when, etc! 😍

Briseis' situation is complicated one because many people won't catch the nuance of her living in a patriarchal society as a war captive and thus developing a strange co-dependence to her captors. In addition, the Homeric Epics are a work changed by time in the Greek society, as people added and altered stuff, so many storylines have been affected by other layers of patriarchal societies. So of course the notion of "slave girl mourning her captor's friend" would seem natural, because they probably don't consider a slave woman's POV. Or perhaps she was in the mourning because she had to be there as a woman "belonging" to the Greeks, and the text does not mention it explicitly because it a given for the era. (I don't recall the whole relevant text sorry)

I am not sure if the average author - judging by what is published in the Anglophone market - can handle the complexity of Briseis and other women in the Trojan war. For Briseis one could go for a romance there but they'd have to depict all of her psychosynthesis properly, so it doesn't come off as "Achilles killed my family but he is hot so I love him". To be fair, it is a challenging task but I am still sad that I haven't heard retellings that do this well. Such a retelling done well would be chef's kiss!

As you said, unfortunately, the writers for now focus on the couple Achilles x Patroclus which, ok, let's accept it since it's a ship and there is some background to it (although those guys are most likely 1) cousins 2) very close to each other like brethren in a way westerners misinterpret). I've enjoyed Song of Achilles and I am surely not against such works, but you are right that the female heroines are reduced to flat characters. A fandom full of women manages to be misogynistic - again. We shouldn't be surprised because misogynistic influences are very strong in our societies still, although many don't see it 😕

[babyrdie]

Since your genderbent patrochilles headcanon is based off of them in the Iliad how do you think they would be in The song of Achilles universe??

Well, to be honest I really don't know. Like, let's first analyze the female characters in TSOA:

Philomela is a vague figure. What we know is that she was happy to be married and got married young, but unfortunately her marriage was terrible. She also liked to play the lyre and apparently had some kind of intellectual disability. She was not treated with dignity by her husband or by the other people in the kingdom and everyone made fun of her disability, unfortunately. Patroclus loved her and had an attachment to her lyre because of that, but he also did not have a normal mother-son relationship. What we have of her is a portrait of a person who has become a broken shell after years of abuse.

Iphigenia is sacrificed before she even has time to show her desires, her personality, etc. We don't get to see her protest, see her dialogue with Agamemnon and Clytemnestra, see her interact with Orestes, see her try to defend herself, see her offer herself, etc. We don't know anything about her, we only know that she's a victim.

Deidamia SAsed Achilles, whether it was intentional or not. She then also slept with Patroclus while humiliating him. She's a stereotypical "other girl", portrayed as vain, annoying and intrusive. She's still a tragic figure in the sense that she loves someone who does not love her and now has to be a single mother, but that is it. Although she is an authority figure in Skyros because the book says that she is the one who takes care of the kingdom and not Lycomedes, she's portrayed as someone you don't take seriously and a spoiled brat. Her character is mainly that of an abuser and an inconvenient person, although there is an attempt to give sympathy.

Helen chooses Menelaus from among the suitors and that's all we know about her, we don't even see her face because she wears a veil. We know that Penelope is loved by Odysseus and apparently didn't want to stay still to serve as a reference for his ship so the painters had to follow her. We also know that Diomedes doesn't have a good marriage because his wife, Aegiale, is a difficult person. So all we know about them is really about their husbands. Menelaus wants his wife back, Odysseus wants to return home, Diomedes has a bad wife. Penelope is a character from Circe and apparently her personality appears there, but I haven't read Circe so I can't say.

We only know that Chryseis is mistreated and abused by Agamemnon. Achilles' slaves have friendships with each other and with Patroclus and they marry the Myrmidons. Briseis has a strong personality, although she is still kind. She, however, still falls in love with Patroclus. She is almost abused by Agamemnon, but this is prevented by Patroclus. Ultimately, she dies while trying to swim to escape being Neoptolemus' prize.

Thetis was abused by Peleus and has a deep contempt for humans, perhaps because of the abuse, though this is not stated in the book. She is generally an unsympathetic and cold figure, portrayed as a powerful and frightening creature. She is a bad mother, as she forcibly separates Achilles from a person he cares about (Patroclus) and causes her own son to be abused (by forcing him to sleep with Deidamia). Despite knowing what happened to Achilles, she still tries to do the same to Neoptolemus. Neoptolemus's horrible personality is portrayed as partly Thetis's fault. After Neoptolemus also fails, Thetis realizes that her attempt to elevate her descendants to immortality by suppressing their goodness and encouraging their bloodthirsty warrior aspect is flawed. In the end, she decides to free Patroclus's soul, thinking that this will make Achilles happy in Elysium.

So, these are the characters:

Characters who get in the way of the couple's romantic relationship and lead to abuse in some way, but who are tragic mother figures: Deidamia and Thetis.

Characters who are voiceless victims, but who serve in some way to develop male characters: Philomela (Patroclus' bad childhood), Iphigenia (Achilles' trauma), Chryseis (Patroclus' sympathy for slave women).

Characters who serve to characterize their husbands: Helen (Menelaus wants his wife back), Penelope (Odysseus misses home because he loves his wife. Again, I don't know what Penelope is like in Circe), Aegiale (Diomedes has a bad wife, perhaps the reason he is not as anxious as Menelaus or Odysseus to come back).

Friendly character: Briseis.

Briseis is the only female character who doesn't represent either the voiceless victim archetype that develops the male character (Philomela, Iphigenia, Chryseis) or the character who gets in the way of the romance (Thetis, Deidamia). The information about her is also really about her, rather than another character (Helen, Penelope, Aegiale). Still, a lot of what people like about her is her relationship with Patroclus more than her per se. Therefore, I can't imagine sapphic Patrochilles functioning in the TSOA universe, as they would likely be voiceless victims or characters who, while sympathetic to a certain extent, are people who only hurt others while trying to fulfill their desires. They, however, would likely be lesbians as TSOA eliminates any and all interest Achilles and Patroclus have in women and portrays them as apparently gay. They would also be monogamous, as is the case with Patrochilles in TSOA. While I like TSOA, female characters aren't its strong point. The TSOA universe makes MLM romance work, but I can't imagine a WLW romance in it. Sorry :/

Again, I didn't read Circe. I think it would be easier to answer if I had read Circe, as it has a female main character.

Also, to be fair: I would say that my genderbend is inspired by mythology in general and not specifically The Iliad. If it were The Iliad, I honestly don't think I would have much to do either. The mortal female characters (Briseis, Chryseis, Diomede, Helen, Cassandra, Hecuba, Andromache) are all in victim status in this context of war. Andromache and Helen, in particular, have a lot of voice, but in the end they still can't do much in their positions. Cassandra and Chryseis don't speak, Briseis only has one line. Hecuba doesn't get much attention either, we only know she grieves her sons. The more active female characters are all immortal (Thetis, Hera, Athena, Aphrodite). There is mention of the Amazon Otreta, but it's a quick mention. The Odyssey does better in this regard, in my opinion. Penelope has a lot of voice, and while she's not actively doing much right now, we know she's tried her hand at it before (e.g. tricking suitors with weaving). Nausicaa and Arete are portrayed as wise, and Nausicaa does help Odysseus. Helen also has a voice, and we know she collaborated with Odysseus in the Trojan War. The slave girls characters are less fortunate, as we don't know most of their personalities. We only know that Melantho was supposedly raised by Penelope, and Euryclea is the archetypal faithful slave. Anticlea is the portrait of the grieving mother, but this was already present in The Iliad because it is common in war contexts. This, of course, only considering mortal characters because, for example, Athena and Circe are very active. I think that sources from later periods have female characters of greater prominence and action, such as Medea in Argonautica, Atalanta in her various myths, Antigone in the plays of Sophocles and Euripides, etc, Penthesilea and Oenone in Posthomerica… my inspiration is largely in this type of character.

[johaerys-writes]

About that post of yours about people getting upset about Patroclus and Achilles being seen romantically, I've seen every single thing that made me so "wtf?"

I've seen them use the justification that they're cousins, from some sources. This doesn't make sense bc cousins getting along in Ancient Greece wasn't all that fuss, it's not like they were brothers! And they're cousins once removed…Orestes and Hermione are first cousins and no one finds it strange!

I've seen people use the justification that Achilles is married (Deidamia). Firstly, it depends on the source, secondly…he still has Briseis? There are sources that there are Briseis and OTHER characters (e.g. Polixena). Even in the sources where he's married, that doesn't stop him from doing anything. Not only Achilles but other characters! Agamemnon has been married for years and had Chryseis and Cassandra. Odysseus is married and his lovers vary with sources. Even before Helen was kidnapped, Menelaus already had a child with another woman. "Ah, but he would still prefer Deidamia, just as Odysseus and Menelaus still preferred Penelope and Helen" well, Agamemnon explicitly states that he prefers Chryseis, and Jason preferred Creusa over Medea…maybe we can assume that different characters are different characters!

I've seen people use the justification that both he and Patroclus had slaves… which, again, doesn't change anything. Again, married men had slaves, I don't know why we're pretending otherwise. Having a slave does not prevent having other relationships, after all, not even a legitimate wife prevents it (or married men wouldn't have bed slaves in the first place). "Ah, but that shows they like women in mythology!"…yeah…but well, some people like more than one gender. That still doesn't rule anything out, I don't see where we're going!

I've seen people explain that it's bc this is something modern… which isn't, there were already romantic interpretations of them in antiquity (Aeschylus, hello? Plato?). But then you point that out and they say "well, but it's not Homer" but then they bring up things like Polyxena and Penthesilea as proof and…their myths with Achilles aren't Homeric! And then they say it's not one of the explicitly declared couples…which, again, doesn't stop anything?? Even more so bc one of the people I saw saying this shipped two characters who never had any romantic text or subtext so it's a walking contradiction!

And even with this "explicit couples" thing, I've seen people talk about a vibe like "oh why focus on Patrochilles, which isn't even canon when there's Apollo x Hyacintus" and I'm still trying to find WHAT is the similarity between these two ships besides being between two male characters. Not even tragedy can be considered a determining factor since tragic couples are not exactly rare in mythology…like, oh tragic couple, so Megara x Heracles is the same too! C'mon, guys! I got the impression that these people have the idea that the ship only exists bc it's MLM and, therefore, any MLM ship plays the role even when the dynamics AREN'T the same…

Or they'll say "the fans make them into a straight stereotype of rigid gender roles", which if you go to the Ao3 tag and read the fics is easily refuted! Especially for Achilles, who depending on the fic isn't even a perisex cis man. But they really don't know the majority preferences of shippers bc e.g there's an idea that absolutely everyone is strictly bottom Pat x top Achilles bc "furious warrior Achilles" and "cool guy Patroclus"… which's funny bc it couldn't be further from reality! And the same person who says this has a ship with strict gender roles, for the love of god!

Even if the ship were canonically impossible… well, hcs exist! As a kid, I watched Naruto and thought Ino x Sakura was very cute, but that doesn't mean I DIDN'T notice that the canon couple was going to be Sakura x Sasuke. It looks like they've never seen shipping before, my god!

Finally: I left the most absurd for last. This wasn't on Tumblr, it was on another social network. Basically, user kind of texted something like "of course you like Patroclus x Achilles, you're not Greek!" And I'm still trying to understand the relationship between someone being Greek and someone liking or not liking a ship. Could it be that in the documents that ask for nationality, if you put "Greek" a questionnaire appears asking you if you ship Patrochilles and if you click "yes" you are taken for falsifying your nationality or something like that?

P.S.: You don't even need to answer this ask. I really just needed to comment on this nonsense, and my friends aren't mythology fans, so here we are!

Okay so I'm just over here nodding aggressively to a lot of things you said, I know you said I don't need to reply to this but let me just add a couple thoughts:

1. Seriously the cousin thing is laughable to me, like who cares who CARES!! Literally it doesn't even matter, not only were romantic relationships btwn cousins not that big a deal in ancient greek works and mythology but also there are so many literary works written before the 20-21st century that feature cousins falling in love, like in the realm of fiction at least it isn't the big and shocking thing the antis think it is, and it hasn't been for centuries, I don’t get why people get so worked up about that...... it doesn’t even count as an argument, moving on

2. People saying that Achilles can't possibly be queer because he sleeps with women and has a son etc etc..... I feel like they’re missing the point, because the thing about Achilles, in my opinion, isn't whether he’s gay or not, or even if he’s bi or not. Those neat little categories are a relatively modern invention I think, and I don’t think that any ancient person would identify as gay or straight or what have you. In some places being a little too close with your buddies (or your students, particularly young male students --athens i'm looking at you--) was a thing, in some others it wasn't, but it wasn't part of their identity like it is now, ykwim? So I think it's pointless to try to put Achilles and Patroclus in those boxes, many people have tried it and it doesn't work. Achilles may have a son with Deidamia but he doesn’t mention her in the Iliad not even once, he cares about Briseis and in the text he lies/sleeps with her but he wouldn’t stop Agamemnon's men from taking her nor would he return to the fighting for her, his relationship with or feelings for the women he sleeps/has slept with doesn't really affect his behaviour. It is Patroclus who he has the emotional bond with, Patroclus who convinces him to do something other than sulk in his camp, Patroclus whom Achilles values above all, Patroclus's death that changes the trajectory of the war and Achilles' own life. The bond between Achilles and Patroclus has cataclysmic consequences for all the Achaens and the Trojans, no other woman in Achilles' life comes close to what he has with Pat.

So like..... that's what's important here. Achilles could have slept with a thousand women and Patroclus with a thousand more and it wouldn't matter. I'm not here to argue whether they were exclusive or not sexually speaking, that's irrelevant and frankly I don't care. I also can't comment on Achilles x Polyxena or Penthesilea I'm not very familiar with those myths and they aren't even Iliad canon anyway so who cares. People have been writing fanfic about him for centuries, what's new.

3. As for the rest of the arguments against Patrochilles I have to admit I stay as far away from drama as I can so I don't really know what is being said online about them. The things you're saying honestly sound like toxic fandom behaviour and antis being at it for no goddamn reason. I'm not even going to respond to that because again, I don’t think there is anything to say. People can ship what they want and headcanon Achilles and Pat boinking any which way they want as long as they leave me alone lmao. Like as long as they don't come to my ask box or ao3 comments with dumbass or exclusionary views (or if Tumblr doesn't decide to spam me with them) then I'm good. I'm definitely not going to go looking for those views on Tumblr or elsewhere.

4. Honestly I didn't even know racism had been brought into this LMAO like I was not familiar with the take that if you're Greek you can't like Patroclus/Achilles. Like.... why is that? Why wouldn't a Greek person like Patrochilles? Do Greeks not have good taste then? I don't get it. Maybe it's because the Iliad is so deeply rooted into ancient greek culture and we learn about it in school or what not, so like it has to be this sacred thing that no one can touch/spoil? For me, shipping ancient dudes is the best way to actually learn a thing or two about history and literature and what have you LOL like I care so much more about the Iliad now than I did in high school. The sad thing is that I feel like if I ever told people irl that I ship Patrochilles they would first be baffled and then probably appalled lmao I can't even imagine their reaction if they ever saw the Patrochilles shrine I keep in my study 😂 Homophobia is a big thing here sadly, and I personally know people who would literally fight anyone who says that mlm was a thing in ancient Greece (because as we know the ancient greeks were the pinnacle of perfection and wisdom and the gays now just want to ruin that 🙄). I'll never forget my high school ancient greek teacher going into a whole rant about it for an hour, and also the school textbooks we had themselves were so heavily censored. It's just such a sad way to be if you ask me, both because you're a fucking homophobe but also you're missing out on so much of the nuance of this culture that you're supposed to "revere", it's always been super baffling to me.

Anyway this rant got away from me so I'll just stop here lmao. At the end of the day I think people will just say whatever they want about whatever they want, I sometimes also get upset and hurt by those dumb takes but it's really not worth it. I try to stay in my lane and block liberally and nerd out with like minded people and I think that's what life/fandom is about, you know

[neoptolemid]

Neoptolemus super doc ? ??

ARE WE ABSOLUTELY SURE,, , ,, ,

uh okay, I pull together my super document of Pyrrhus, have pardon cause it's a bit old and i'm gonna spread it through like 3 or 4 posts probably , , so uh enjoy and I'm sorry for all grammatical errors

Skyros

Pyrrhus was born by the name Pyrrhus and this was based either on his red hair or due to Achilles name of Skyros being Pyrrha.

When it comes to appearances I generally describe him as a good mix of both Deidamia and Achilles’ traits, having inherited Deidamia’s red hair and Achilles Blue/teal eyes. He is around the middle of both of his parent’s height as I make Achilles 6’0 and Deidamia 5’3 when full grown, Pyrhhus rounds out to be 5’6. He also has a number of beauty marks which are similar to Achilles’.

It is unknown how long Achilles stayed on Skyros or when Pyrrhus was born. Either way Achilles did know about his son, we know this from the fact Achilles makes references to his son within the Iliad and Odyssey.

I like to believe that part of Pyrrhus growing up with his mother and aunts is that he has a lot of appreciation for women’s crafts and what they do. That he as a younger child would simply sit and be by his mother and/or aunts as they worked enjoying their company.

He would try his best growing up to join into their songs and dances, and at least once dressed himself in girls clothes to show his mother and aunts which got a good laugh out of them.

From Quintus ‘Fall of Troy’ we are informed that learning to fight and it was Odysseus and Diomedes who came with their black sails to ask him to join the war cause. He was promised to marry Menelaus’s daughter Hermione, he was also promised to have Achilles’ armor and gold, riches, and glory for coming with them.

While work will generally age him to being a young man or simply portray him to be very well spoken, if you follow along with the time line it is very possible that Pyrrhus is only 11 or 12 when he leaves Skyros, I tend to write him as being 13 for my own comfort.

Another thing to note form Quintus’s piece on Pyrrhus is they depict this being especially sad for Deidamia, she is written as having weeped and weeped. She doesn’t want him to leave because she doesn’t want him going to war and leaving her. She doesn’t want him hurt and she doesn’t want another person she loves leaving her again.

Deidamia Pyrrhus’s mother is written as loving him and I interpret bits of this story as Pyrrhus is the only tie to Achilles she has. Generally I prefer the idea that Deidamia did care for Achilles and so it did break her heart that he left and she had hoped that he would return eventually to her and their son.

Over the years she understood more and more that he would not return, so all she had was her son, and then eventually they come and take him from her as well.

Mattering on the version of the story, it is fully possible that Deidamia may have never seen her son again once he left the island.

Dawn climbed the wide-arched heaven, straightway they rose from their beds. Then Deidameia knew; and on her son's broad breast she cast herself, and bitterly wailed: her cry thrilled through the air, as when a cow loud-lowing mid the hills seeks through the glens her calf, and all around Echo long ridges of the mountain-steep; so on all sides from dim recesses rang the hall; and in her misery she cried: "Child, wherefore is thy soul now on the wing to follow strangers unto Ilium the fount of tears, where perish many in fight, yea, cunning men in war and battle grim? And thou art but a youth, and hast not learnt the ways of war, which save men in the day of peril. Hearken thou to me, abide here in thine home, lest evil tidings come from Troy unto my ears, that thou in fight hast perished; for mine heart saith, never thou hitherward shalt from battle-toil return. Not even thy sire escaped the doom of death -- he, mightier than thou, mightier than all heroes on earth, yea, and a Goddess' son -- but was in battle slain, all through the wiles and crafty counsels of these very men who now to woeful war be kindling thee. Therefore mine heart is full of shuddering fear lest, son, my lot should be to live bereaved of thee, and to endure dishonour and pain, for never heavier blow on woman falls than when her lord hath perished, and her sons die also, and her house is left to her desolate. Straightway evil men remove her landmarks, yea, and rob her of her all, setting the right at naught. There is no lot more woeful and more helpless than is hers who is left a widow in a desolate home."

Lemnos

Pyrrhus agrees to go with them and on the way they stop by the island of Lemnos to get Philoctetes. Odysseus makes Neoptolemus lie to Philoctetes because he knows that he hates Odysseus because he is the man who abandoned him on Lemnos and he knows that Philoctetes doesn’t want to go to Troy but back to Greece and to his home.

This causes a Pyrrhus strife because he has been taught to be noble up until now, in the play Philoctetes by Sophocles we are shown multiple times how this causes him strife because he is having to lie. Philoctetes also considers Pyrrhus to be a friend because Pyrrhus lies and says that he wants to go back home to Skyros because of the way he is treated by the other Greeks even though he hasn’t met any of them yet to our knowledge.

Good lines from this play that I personally characterize him are

‘It would have been better if i had never left scyros. Everything around me oppresses me ..’

‘He’ll (odysseus) claim i’m too soft-hearted’

‘I can’t. It is right and in our interest to listen to those in authority’

Some of the best development to see from this is how he was raised to be noble and how he doesn’t want to trick people or lie, he wants to be honest.

Another thing I find interesting to read from specifically this play is how Pyrrhus is very rarely called by his own name, he is almost always referred to ‘son of achilles’ and also in this play he is often referred to as ‘child’ or ‘boy’.

While none of these things are brought up as an issue in the play I do think it is a detail you can play with, like how it might weigh on an individual to be always referred to by your famous father or how people don’t recognize you by your name but by your father’s.

I think these are things that would weigh on Pyrrhus he wants to live up to his father but it also oppresses him to be referred in such a way. He wants to be like his father but he is still his own individual which he doesn’t feel recognized by as people continually anything but his own name.

To the idea of playing into the fact he is also often called ‘boy’ or ‘child’ These could be names that eventually upset and anger him. He is being dragged into this war like he is old enough to fight, which he is not and yet he is not recognized as such by those around him.

It is a case of a child feeling indignatinge by being called terms which denote being naive, though I like to think there is some justification for his anger because this isn’t just a small thing but he is being taken into a man's world.

In Philoctetes he is referred to by the name Neoptolemus, he was given this name by Phoenix, a man also considered to be a father by Achilles. Phoenix is one of the oldest men in the Trojan war and he is either involved with Pyrrhus coming from the island to Skyros to the war or some time later down the road. He gave him this name because it means ‘new war/warrior’ it is meant to reflect how Achilles himself was a young man when he entered the war.

It is honestly more common to see Pyrrhus referred to as Neoptolemus by the Greeks and Pyrrhus by Roman sources to my knowledge. (i’ll be using Pyrrhus just for simplicity)

Troy

There are a lot of various stories that have to do with the fall of Troy, we have records again from Quintus “Fall of Troy” and the “Aeneid” by Vergil. There are also a number of plays by the three tragedians of Ancient Greece(Sophocles, Euripides, Aeschylus) that have to do with the end of the war and various stories of the aftermath.

While Pyrrhus doesn’t appear in these very often they still help to give more insight to his possible character.

Pyrrhus makes a minor appearance within the play of ‘hecuba’ and is in the background of ‘andromache’, he makes no appearance within this story but he is directly related to things happening in the play.

Back onto the subject of the fall of Troy, he is regarded as the killer of both Astyanax and Priam. These are generally agreed upon details and sometimes Odysseus fills the role of Pyrrhus when the story decides they don’t want to introduce more characters.

He is generally described as being ‘battle-eager’ ‘Fierce-hearted’ and a few other epithets relating to fighting. In general he is not described as being worse than anyone else. The fall of Troy is a greek work and all the Greeks within this work are killing and fighting people. He is by all means a competent fighter within the text.

In the Odyssey when Odysseus goes into the underworld and speaks with the dead, and when Achilles comes to speak he asks about his son.

Odysseus describes him as

‘but I can tell you all about your son Neoptolemus, for I took him in my own ship from Scyros with the Achaeans. In our councils of war before Troy he was always first to speak, and his judgement was unerring. Nestor and I were the only two who could surpass him; and when it came to fighting on the plain of Troy, he would never remain with the body of his men, but would dash on far in front, foremost of them all in valour. Many a man did he kill in battle- I cannot name every single one of those whom he slew while fighting on the side of the Argives, but will only say how he killed that valiant hero Eurypylus son of Telephus, who was the handsomest man I ever saw except Memnon; many others also of the Ceteians fell around him by reason of a woman's bribes. Moreover, when all the bravest of the Argives went inside the horse that Epeus had made, and it was left to me to settle when we should either open the door of our ambuscade, or close it, though all the other leaders and chief men among the Danaans were drying their eyes and quaking in every limb, I never once saw him turn pale nor wipe a tear from his cheek; he was all the time urging me to break out from the horse- grasping the handle of his sword and his bronze-shod spear, and breathing fury against the foe. Yet when we had sacked the city of Priam he got his handsome share of the prize money and went on board (such is the fortune of war) without a wound upon him, neither from a thrown spear nor in close combat, for the rage of Mars is a matter of great chance.'

In general from the greek sources he is described as nobly.

He is noted for killing quite a few people during the fall of Troy but his most notable kills are Priam, who he kills within the throne room (to my knowledge) and Astyanax who is killed after Troy has fallen.

In the Aeneid by Vergil he is described in ways that frame him a more villainous or evil way

‘The fatal work inhuman Pyrrhus plies,’

During when Pyrrhus is about to kill Priam there is a line that I believe characterizes him as more of a tragic character than anything else. Before killing Priam, Priam berates him about how Pyrrhus is about to treat Priam because of how Achilles showed him humanity and how Achilles gives Priam his son’s body back. This is partly brung up because Pyrrhus getting into the throne room kills one of Priam’s sons in front of his face.

The line basically translates out to be Pyrrhus telling Priam that when he dies and sees his father to tell him of the terrible deed of his son, of how terrible his son is.

In the translation that I read they use the line ‘Tell him of degenerate Neoptolemus’

When in the context of the Philoctetes I think this paints Pyrrhus as being a rather tragic and sad character, because prior to going to the island of Lemnos Pyrrhus tried to act most noble, he wants to be noble like his father. When on Lemnos he has his morals questioned and is forced to go against his morales at the hand of Odysseus.

I interpret this as him vocalizing how he might be upset with himself as he is forced to look at the reality of war which isn’t noble or glorious at all. He wants to live up to the noble idea of his father and everything he is forced to do makes him feel terrible.

I personally think that Pyrrhus probably doesn’t know a lot about the terrible things that Achilles has done or he tries to ignore them. When fighting in the war he might realize his idea of his father might not truly be acturte, he was raised on stories from his mother telling him of his outstanding father.

In terms of justifying his actions during the war because going off my own headcanon he probably wouldn’t be so interested in killing so many people, I imagine he kinda just turns off his head and acts purely on his emotions and just acts like that of a soldier. (Is this PTSD?)

He follows the orders given to him and acts without questioning and lets all his emotions out. I personally don’t assign Pyrrhus that much pride but I like to think he inherited some of his fathers famous anger. All of his anger at what he is being forced to do comes out when he is forced to fight.

That is where the brutality of his portrayal within the Aeneid comes from.

[onehandedly]

I want to troll you very badly but won't... so Achilles

XDDDDDD I welcome trolling! Even though I think I might know (and fear) yours!

How I feel about this character

I love him. He is among my favourites in the Iliad because he is utterly unhinged and still oddly wise (when calm). He makes the longest and strongest speech about peace in the whole poem before mowing down people and committing atrocities. He is horribly childish and wild in some moments while behaving like a wise king in others. He is compelling, strange, and a wonderful representation of a demigod: a creature that hasn't made peace with his own nature, that cannot be at peace with it. Made of blocks that don't quite fit together.

All the people I ship romantically with this character

Patroclus (because I am an unoriginal bastard and their relationship is incredibly sweet, my murder babies). Hippodameia (Briseis is a patronimic) is a not truly romantic but interesting ship to me because I go all in for twisted and bad and I find the idea of Deidamia having fun with him compelling.

My non-romantic OTP for this character

Thetis, his mother. Their relationship is so twisted and unhealthy: from trying to burn him alive as soon as he was born, to the name she gave him (Ligirone "he who cries"), to the way she is a pivotal center of his life, a source of comfort and help even though they are directed at allowing him to die gloriously. It is amazingly complex to me. Peleus, his father, I really like the affectionate way Achilles talks about him and how protective he gets. Chiron: after all he gave Achilles his name and I love the mentor-pupil dynamic.

My unpopular opinion about this character

Not really unpopular but I rarely see this spoken about: he has fire scarring on his lips. In the Iliadic myth there is no mention of any heel (even Hector tells his wife "he is a man and can be killed"), but Thetis tired to "burn away" the child mortal side as soon as he was born (like she did with his elder brothers and sisters). Unsurprisingly Peleus, that seemed to want children, stopped her and so he had 1 son left among the mortals, with some damages. I like to think that he cannot quite smile without pain and that the scars on his lips become extremely visible when he flushes.

One thing I wish would happen / had happened with this character in canon.

That he had actually spoken with Hector before the Patroclus mess. That would have been extremely interesting to me.

[gloryblooded]

with a gif of achilles/austin being a major mood ( i mean, who doesn’t want to nap all the time ? ), i hope to catch your attention & say HELLO !   i’m hanna, i’m 22, and i use she/her pronouns! i’m a hufflepuff, a libra, and ISFJ ( what a shocking combo, i know ). anyway, over here i’ll be playing everyone’s favorite disaster hero, achilles, and his new mortal self, austin pelham. i’m so excited for this group and getting to write & plot with all of you. 

anyway, below the cut you’ll find some info about both achilles and austin ! it got kinda lengthy ( especially achilles’ part ) + it’s messily written. sdfsfdsdhsfbh im truly sry about that & pls still love us.

ACHILLES.

disclaimer: i’ve utilized several sources to form my portrayal of achilles, namely the iliad and the song of achilles. i have not read the pjo books, but i googled achilles’ role in it & i’ll incorporate that to my characterization to the best of my abilities.

so, achilles. a son of peleus, a king, and thetis, a nereid. boy was destined for greatness long before he was even conceived; great enough that the gods chose to dilute it by giving thetis to a mortal man. despite this, his destiny was to still become the greatest warrior of his generation. thetis, wanting to further protect him, dipped him in the river styx and boom, the powers of almost complete invulnerability ( except that one heel ) were achilles’. 

his childhood was actually quite lonely? sure, he had peleus’ orphan boys to keep him company & plenty of admirers, but there was always a certain distance between them, especially he had separate, private lessons. that is until a certain awkward young prince arrived in peleus’ court. achilles was instantly smitten ( a shoutout to that time when he became that ‘g2g chicken’ meme after their first kiss ) and this feeling just became stronger through the years as they studied under chiron’s tutelage at mount pelion. 

AND THAT’S IT. NOTHING HAPPENED AFTER THAT. ACHILLES GOT HIS HAPPY ENDING.

just kidding. unfortunately :sob emoji:

tHEN PARIS HAD TO DO HIS THING AND RUIN ACHILLES’ HAPPINESS ( thanks a lot dude ). the war started and, despite the ordeal with thetis where achilles was yeeted to lycodemes’ court & ended up knocking up deidamia, he was off to fight in the trojan war ( with his emotional support philtatos right by his side ).

during his years there, he does his thing. he fights, kills more trojans and their allies than anyone else, is a great leader to his men, and spends his free time with his boyfriend. also i wanted to add that he was not as hostile toward briseis as he was in tsoa. like, ofc they weren’t as close as patrochilles or pat and bri, but he wasn’t as jealous as implied in tsoa. 

anyway, now we’re getting closer to that period of time. stuff goes fairly normally, but then aging meninist ( idk how to spell his name & im too lazy to look it up, but u know who i mean ) decides to dishonor him by unlawfully taking briseis from him. and oh boy, do we get to see achilles’ non-chill side. victim-playing & stubborn spite game is strong af. someone tries to reason with him? he becomes that ‘i suddenly can’t read i don’t know’ gif. 

anyway, shit turns bad enough that he eventually, although reluctantly, consents to patroclus donning his armor and leading the myrmidons out there. that obvs ends super badly and achilles, true to himself, reacts even worse. he goes ballistic and even fights a river before he finally gets what he wants --- hector dead. after that, he stops caring. he fights, sure, but every single time he wishes his death would come. death eludes him for a while after that, and when it finally arrives & that arrow lodges itself in his heel, achilles vc: finally some good fucking food.

except sike, not ! his bitchass of a son delays the reunion he’s been yearning for. achilles curses him & 100% disowns him because he dared to disrespect his final wish. bUT EVENTUALLY HIS PERSON ARRIVED AND ACHILLES WAS SO !!!!!!!!!!!! BECAUSE ALL WAS FINALLY GOOD. achilles got a good dose of positive character development bc he realizes the error of his ways when he was alive, but most importantly, he never had to part with his one true love.

until the gods got themselves into another mess & dragged other, innocent people with them. smh ( uncle sam and/or the gods better square up when achilles regains his memories bc how dare they interrupt his lovely afterlife with pat!!!! )

AUSTIN.

so, enter the man achilles thinks he now is: austin pelham. his full name is austin alexander pelham-niarchos, but for the sake of simplicity, he goes by austin pelham most days. he is the only child of us army general & greek heiress to a shipping empire. not really a happy marriage, but they wouldn’t divorce either. both adored austin, though, so the boy didn’t pay too much attention to his parents’ marital struggles.

austin’s future was laid out from a young age too. he was to follow in his father’s footsteps and become an army official as well, possibly one of the greatest this nation had ever seen. considering his natural athleticism and gift for commanding crowds, it seemed a feasible future path & austin himself accepted it without complaining.

however, he was a mere kid when all this was told to him, so he couldn’t be too bothered. sure, he excelled in school ( his mother insisted he should only attend the best institutions ), but mostly he enjoyed the perks that came with having been born to a lap of such luxury. 

contrary to popular belief, austin had basically no true friends; sycophants and other admirers, yes, but no one he truly bonded with. he wouldn’t have minded finding such person, but they never came along & that was fine with austin. he was independent enough to “survive alone.”

so years have gone by, manhattan’s boy king has graduated from harvard with a degree in history, and it’s time for him to join the army, right? sike, no ! austin’s mother had never been particularly enthusiastic about the idea of her son joining the army & possibly getting killed in action, but this is the first time she has a major argument with her husband about it. 

before he could do anything about it, she made her move. she used her connections to get him his movie role and manipulated austin by telling him that if he were to abandon his military plans & pursue a career as an actor, he could achieve more fame than he had ever dreamed of. austin, being a trusting person, had no reason to believe otherwise, so he accepted his mother’s offer and began working as an actor.

and what a rise to stardom it was. after his role, he got more and more offers, most of which were action / war films. austin did not mind being known as an action star; those were his favorite type of movies to film anyway. recently he finished filming what is supposed to be next spring’s ( & year’s ) biggest blockbuster and now relocated back to new york city where he plans to stay for a few months at least.

personality wise, i’d say he is most similar to pre-trojan war achilles ( when he’s at mt. pelion & lycodemes’ court ). he still has that certain brand of innocence to him and fairly easy to manipulate if you know where to strike. however, he has earned a reputation of being somewhat challenging to work with ( he knows what he wants / how he wants something done & isn’t afraid to demand this respect ). this hasn’t tamed the constant flow of work offers, though, because a) he has a way with the crowd, so fans love him, b) money is guaranteed due to his large crowd of followers, and c) he always gets the job done when he sets his mind to it. slightly more prone to making bad decisions, since he doesn’t have his impulse control person. austin is often up for a good time, though, and an evening with him won’t be a boring one.

AND THAT’S ABOUT IT, I THINK ! I DON’T YET HAVE A CONNECTIONS PAGE UP, BUT I’LL START WORKING ON IT ASAP. IF YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS, FEEL FREE TO MSG ME BECAUSE I’M UP FOR P MUCH WHATEVER. I’LL DO MY BEST TO COME UP WITH IDEAS MYSELF & MSG YOU LOVELY PEOPLE! ugh im so excited for this group!!

[babyrdie]

It's kind of interesting how sometimes we project ourselves onto characters, so we say "character X wouldn't like character Y" without any evidence of that just because WE don't like Y.

A few examples I've seen on the mythology side of Tumblr:

The Achaeans didn't like Neoptolemus. There's literally no evidence for that, and there's even evidence to the contrary (that they liked him). Even when we think of an Achaean who had problem with him, it was after the Trojan War and it was for personal reasons (Menelaus, who felt that Neoptolemus neglected Hermione for Andromache). Because people think Neoptolemus is despicable, they want their favs to think so too. But guess what? They don't.

Achilles doesn't like Deidamia. Again, there's no source that shows he doesn't like her. It's a projection because people like a specific ship and want that ship to be monogamous, even though we're talking about Mycenaean Greece, so they make Achilles dislike Deidamia.

Theseus was a jerk to Phaedra. Again, I don't remember this. I don't know if I didn't read the source that indicates this, but I don't remember this. People are just bitter about Ariadne and then project that onto Phaedra. When the tragedy with Phaedra happened, Theseus wasn't even there. He found her already dead. Phaedra is not Ariadne. Ariadne's problems are her problems, not Phaedra's.

Andromeda hates Perseus. There's nothing to indicate that she hates Perseus, but there's a lot to indicate that she loves Perseus. It's a projection because people would hate to be in a situation where you have to choose between the family that was willing to sacrifice you and a complete stranger. If I were Andromeda, I wouldn't want to marry Perseus and at the same time I wouldn't want to be with Cepheus and Cassiopheia, but the thing is… I'm not Andromeda. Andromeda wanted to marry Perseus.

Helen would hate being married to Achilles in the afterlife. There's no evidence of that, either. In fact, they're always portrayed as a happy couple, with Achilles singing and partying with Helen. Hesiod even says that Helen would have chosen Achilles as her husband if he were a suitor. It's just that you think Achilles is a jerk and think Helen deserved better. But the thing is: you're not Helen, Helen has nothing against Achilles.

Hephaestus had an unpleasant personality while married to Aphrodite. Again, no evidence of this. It's just that people have this idea that Hephaestus was ugly and the reality is that people think it's unfair that the goddess of beauty gets to be with an ugly guy because she deserves the hot guy, in this case Ares. Although, to be honest, I don't even remember Hephaestus being ugly. But the popular image today is that he was.

The interesting part is that it's also never a thought. It's never a reflection like "I think X would feel pressured by Y for W reason", it's always "that's out of the question, because X wouldn't like Y" or "X hated/was disappointed by Y". It's not even a headcanon, something like "I headcanon that X and Y wouldn't get along for W reasons". No, people like to state it as if it's 100% certain. If it was some kind of elaborate reflection or a headcanon, I would understand. I also reflect on certain relationships, I also have headcanons. But it's always "I know this character better than the ancient Greeks who wrote them and I say it's out of the question that X would like Y."

Honestly, the only situation where I think this is valid is when there is a certain contextual romanticization of the time on the part of the authors… for example, the tendency of some authors to present enslaved women and the men who enslaved them as a couple who love each other. It really makes sense to think "that's super weird, I prefer to think that she didn't like him like that."

[neoptolemid]

Middle of the night

This is a story between Helenus and Deidamia, a talk between the two during the night discussing the future but also a lot of the past

It was late at night and the weaving room was lit by only a single candle and the room was lit by a single candle and the sound of a single loom being used. It was Deidamia who sat alone weaving a new piece. The design was simple and more akin to something of a blanket, a piece to be used to warm and comfort a person.

She had been working on this blanket for the past month and she made blankets like this one every year in the same month.

She had long since worked out a pace for herself and hummed to move along the time as she went.

Her hair no longer was kept wrapped and high but she wore it loose and let it fall over her shoulders, her hair had lost some of youthful shine and took on more luster and gray.

She had no care to mind though her life was full, she had loving children and partners to keep from any thoughts of vanity in gray hairs.

She worked her speed and hummed a single tune, something mostly solem.

Work was interrupted with quiet footsteps, and she knew the intruder far before they gave a slight knock on the doorframe and came in.

"Hello deia, what are you doing up so late?" The question and voice belonged to her husband, the priest king of Eprius Helenus. He spoke hushed in the quiet room and walked to her pulling a seat next to her.

He too was aged by time, his hair had grown long and also gray. She remembered from when they had first met and his hair was black and cut short, he had been shorn quickly and roughly with no care put into it but she supposed that was the nature at the time.

When they had come to Skyros all those years ago.

"I couldn't find sleep and I wished to continue my work on this piece, what made you awake also at this hour?"

"I admit I was looking for you, I wanted to speak to you about your trip to Delphi, if I have the dates correct you'll be going in the next few weeks?"

"Yes that is correct"

She knew well enough that this would be the set up to a conversation, she didn't know exactly what the end of the conversation would bring. She knew well enough he was trying to breach a subject that was causing him thoughts, he was always a bit of the type to dance around things. He meant all the bust but he would always start out with making small talk and speaking on all things around him first.

And like she thought he wouldn’t quite get to his point yet “did you intend to take Kassandra with you like you did last year?”

His voice was quite like prior but there was hesitation in his voice now, worry clung to him a bit.

“If she wants to go with me then I will welcome her company, if she doesn’t wish to come with me again then that is fine. I would not push her.”

“Andromache and I wanted to make the request that even if she asks to not bring her.”

This had her stop, this had her turn and finally turn and look helenus in the face.

“Why not, if she wishes to come then I would allow it and she is my daughter she ought to be at my side how I will it to be” Her voice punctures the air, she speaks hard for a moment with him, looking him in the eyes and burying her gaze.

She knew this was coming, this house wishes to put the past to rest and all she wishes to do is give simple remembrances. Her grief swallowed her once and after climbing back she simply wanted to give small tokens and things as remembrances, as small offerings.

She knew the tainted nature of the past in this house, it was not something she could deny or hide, not something she could apologize for and she accepted all that.

Helenus looked somewhat taken aback from how Deidamia came to be, but his offense wasn’t taken so hard that he simply slipped back from her, he couldn’t meet her eyes and his shoulders slumped a bit.

He kept his arms close to himself and softly rubbed the back of his hand with his thumb, seemingly working out words and what he would say.

“Look Deidamia, we simply think it would be best for you not to take her, she is so little and Delphi is not close, it is a journey and for such a small girl”

She didn’t care to hear anything but the reason that had drawn him to seek her out in the middle of the night. “Cut it out. Helenus.”

“You going to Delphi is fine but just don’t take Kassandra”

“Why Helenus?”

Her tone was sharp with him, if he were to continue this charade of answers her tone would do nothing but grow with him.

"Andromache and I simply don't think it's the best, recently kassandra was asking about Neoptolemus and it is not a topic I or Andromache really want to entertain any growing interest in."

She signs, she softens, her shoulders relax and she turns her gaze from him and to her work, "alright, I can understand that, I can be fair, I will not take her."

Silence slinking back in and the only sound to be heard is her making her work, the sound of fabric passing by fabric, but he does not leave.

Something in the silence bothers him and keeps him from leaving just yet, something in the air keeps him where he is, there is more to be said he can simply feel it. He doesn't know yet what must be said but the words will surely fall from him, but while he collects his thoughts he turns to look at her work.

It is a rather simple blanket, the patterning is minimal and the color is teal.

"I'm am sorry if I have upset you Damia, I simply worry for you and for Kassanadra, I do not want this grief to consume you"

The shuttle drops from her hand with a thunk as she turns around to him.

"Consume me! Do I not live here, do I not govern here, do I not raise my daughter here! Do I not love you here! How am I not present, in what way do you need me to be more present. Pray tell me Dear Helenus how I am not present here"

Her voice pitches and it is very nearly a yell, while her mood might have settled had he left, he said what he supposed he was supposed to, he spoke what he believed necessary.

She stands taking his arm. Eyes boring into eyes she speaks and cries to him.

She weeps to him, in that moment she cries and breaks to him "You barely let me grieve alone, I know what my son did, I know he wasn't perfect, I know he did harm, I've seen the harm first hand. But I can't not grieve for him, I can't not, he was my baby! My baby that I raised by my hand"

"Oh, Damia . . ."

"I know his crimes!” her anger breaks to a quiver as she continues “but I can’t stop loving him, he’s my son and I’ve no more sons now, I love Kassandra I truly do but I’ve lost my sons, I’ve lost my last bit of Achilles and Patroclus.”

It falls out like that, and part of that hurts Helenus, he knows that he is forever loved in her arms but such old names still hurt. Years elapsed and still those names sting.

It is unfair that such old names should still sting and hurt him.

Between the two boys Pyrrhus was the image of Deidamia with Achilles’ eyes and while Oneiros was alive he took mostly after Patroclus, it was forever clear the boys did not share a father. It was forever funny that while alive, although Pyrrhus was the elder of the two brothers, Oneiros outgrew him. Who would know that he would be taken from the living age while still young, no one would know how tall he would grow be.

He loved her so much but such words like these acted on old fears that he truly was no one's first choice, he was not wanted ever first.

“I .. . I’m sorry you feel that way Damia, I really am sorry you feel that way” he pulls her close and kneels to the floor with this, he holds her with his person. He folds around her and holds her with all that he can.

If he just truly holds her as tightly as he can then nothing can get to her, nothing can harm her as long as he holds her and hides her within himself. He can go through so much in life, he has seen the hardships of life first hand and none of that is anything that she deserves.

It is her voice that breaks the moment of silence between the two of them.

“He left me,, I let him leave me, I couldn’t keep my baby boy safe and simply keep him at home on skyros. I couldn’t even do that much as his mother! I let him leave me, I let my boys leave me and they died!’

Her breaths come quick as she speaks.

So much of everything she has felt pours forth to him, she wept for her son when he left, she wept for the child she has raised and cared for.

Grief swallowed her when black sails came in the direction of skyros, one could think it was simply the ending of a war and that people might be returned. However the only sails were those of black sails not a single other ship, and this was only trouble, this was only a sign of grief to be had. True to nature these sails came with nothing good, they took what was good to her, they took her peace.

They came with gifts and promises, they came with fortunes.

Nothing but empty things.

They came the same way when Achilles and Patroclus left her.

What's a child to do when they are offered all the things of a king, what is a child to do when they are told of glory to be won and gifts to be given. She remembers distinctly the gifts promised.

She remembers promised arms, surely too big. She remembers the promising of a shield, surely too heavy for her boy. She remembers the promise of a daughter to be a wife, surely he was too young to care for such things.

“I did NOTHING! I did nothing, Helenus, I did nothing but weep, I did nothing but look sad. I was an ideal wife and mother to some known force as I just sat where I was and wept for what I had lost and all I stood to lose. I should have done something, I could have done something I could have and I did nothing!”

Her sorrow rang out and filled the room, it made an effort to swallow both. He felt for her, he felt for her position and the emotion that hung on her back and weighed her down.

[veggiesandwichpana]

#Like I imagine Achilles asking him “How is the love of my life?” #And Patroclus just goes “I don’t know I haven’t seen Deidamia recently” #I actually imagine Deidamia and Achilles to be friends#and I know some people like the Ship of Achilles and #but guys #realistically how many romantic teen relationships last into adulthood? #realistically

I have the headcanon that Achilles and Deidamia didn't love each other

They were simply horny teenagers with not enough parental supervision

Like I imagine, both Achilles and Deidamia being like 16 and saying "She's the love of my life, I want to marry her!!!" And "But Dad I love him!"

And then later when they're both 20, they cringe at the memory and realize that no, they were just teens and very horny

Bonus points if Patroclus makes fun of him for that lol