#ancient alternative history

[jeannereames]

Do you have any thoughts/theories on what it would've been like if Alexander ever returned to Pella? (sorry if this was already asked, tumblr's search system isn't really helpful)

What if Alexander Had Lived to Turn West?

First, I agree on Tumblr’s search system. It’s become increasingly bad. Even I can’t find posts I KNOW I made and tagged. I’m starting to compile a list of the more important (and lengthy) posts on various subjects, for my own reference. I wish Tumblr would let us pin several posts, not just one. (I’ve also sent a complaint feedback to Tumblr about this.)

Anyway, to the question: before we get to the “fun” (speculative) part, let’s address how likely it is he’d GO back. And as part of that, we need to ruminate a bit on what he might have done, if he’d returned west. So, let’s play a little “What-if?”

We must also keep in mind travel time. In the modern world, we can forget how long it took back then to get from Point A to Point B. Had he lived to attack Carthage (as I think he planned to do), or at least circumnavigate Arabia—both are on the southern coast of the Mediterranean. (See my tweaked map with significant places I mention below marked in purple, and recall that they tended to sail along a coast, not straight through the middle.) Macedonia is in the NW corner of the Aegean Sea. Such a side-trip would have eaten up a couple months. There might have been a sneaky reason for him to do that very thing: to come at Carthage from the north. (See discussion below.) But only if Arabia was a ruse all along. If he did mean to attack Arabia (and I think he intended that too), he'd go the southern route, then after, check on the progress of Alexandria (and visit the shrines for Hephaistion that he’d ordered built), before heading west.

If he did choose that southern route, he wouldn’t have returned to Pella before attacking Arabia or Carthage. And after…well, Italy was on the way back, so he’d probably have gone there first. And yes, I think after dealing with Carthage, he’d have used avenging the death of his uncle (Alexandros of Epiros) as an excuse to attack the Greek colonies in S. Italy. If he’d been successful against Carthage, I’m pretty sure south Italy, and possibly the north too, would have capitulated to avoid being leveled. Even Rome. At that point, Rome was in no position to fight such a titanic military powerhouse. Too many think of Rome later and backread the extent of Roman resistance into earlier periods.

Depending on the length of the campaign (e.g., how hard was any opposition), he’d have been in his mid-30s by then. Incidentally, if you’d like a speculative “What if Alexander went West,” I recommend A Choice of Destinies by Melissa Scott. (Ignore the cover.) She does have him return to Greece first, but because Thebes is in revolt (which called him back in the first place; he never reaches India). That’s the sort of event that would get him back to Greece.

There’s been speculation in both fiction and history that he didn’t want to go home because he was avoiding “his terrible mother” (as Tarn put it). I’ve written before on why Oedipal Complexes are both very modern and very wrong to assign to Alexander. I can’t now locate that post (annoyingly), but did find this one about Alexander’s relationship with Olympias in later years. So, I don’t think avoiding Olympias would have kept him from Greece/Macedonia before going west. If anything, the opportunity to see his family would have been a draw, not a dissuading point.

So, we can postulate two possible return scenarios. The first would be a side-trip on his way to Carthage as trickery to conceal his real target. After leaving Pella, he’d circumnavigate Greece to the Peloponnese, then cross the Ionian Sea to Sicily (a typical Greek trade route), and then sail around the southern edge of the island to pop across to Carthage from the north.

In this scenario, he’d be in “swing-by” mode. He’d already asked Antipatros to bring him fresh troops, so he’d have been picking them up, or acquiring more. As a recruiting campaign, it would have been short, but he’d no doubt make several religious sacrifices at Dion, Aigai, and Pella, and perhaps even visit Delphi for a prophecy about the west.

He would not bring his Asian wives with him in either scenario. First, it’s a campaign, not a family visit. But also, he intended them to stay in Babylon (or Susa). By that point, Roxane and probably also Statiera would have given birth. If both infants were male, Statiera’s would be designated heir in Asia. If only Roxana’s was male, he’d still be the “spare” by dint of his mother’s lower birth, but better than nothing in the meantime.

It’s quite possible that he intended a divided but hierarchical rule not so different from Assyrian patterns, where one heir was sent to Babylon while Daddy ruled in Nineveh and trained the other. He almost certainly meant his son by Statiera to rule in Persia/Asia, but perhaps a different son to rule in the west—one likely not even conceived yet.

I do not think he’d have married a Macedonian. He’d be looking for another political marriage, maybe to a Greek (Athenian, Syracusan…), but more likely, he’d marry a Carthaginian after any war (or as part of any peace treaty with Carthage). At that point, Carthage was the powerhouse in the Western Med. Remember, Rome had only begun her consolidation of the Italic peninsula in the wake of the Gaulic sack of the city. Alexander in Italy might have stopped that cold.

Anyway, whatever marriage he made in the west (or couple of marriages) would have been intended to produce an heir to reign there, probably subservient to any son by Statiera after Alexander’s own death, but it’s hard to know for sure. Roxana’s son (and Herakles by Barsine) would have been third and fourth fiddles. That’s WHY Roxana killed Statiera. Her status wasn’t high enough, and her son would have been destined to be regional governor in the NE territories (where his family was from): e.g., troublesome Baktria/Sogdiana. Herakles would probably have been given Asia Minor (where his Persian family was from). (More on Herakles in another post.)

But back to this scenario: if he visited on the way, it would have been a quick trip until he was off again to another campaign. (Not unlike Daddy who, in his latter years, didn’t spend much time in Pella.)

Now, let’s look at scenario #2: a visit after any victories in Arabia, Carthage, and possibly Italy. That would be a different homecoming, less pressed for time.

That said, he wouldn’t have intended to stay. After securing the eastern/middle Mediterranean, he might have driven up into Europe, to re-secure Thrace to the Danube and scout for river connections between the Black and Caspian Seas. There aren’t any, but they didn’t know that. In fact, late in his campaign, he’d already sent somebody north to do that very scouting, so this would be a follow-up.

Thrace had fallen away from Macedonian control in in his later years, thanks to the powerful Odrysian King Seuthes III. Also, Alexander hadn’t forgotten those Celts who’d been singularly unimpressed by him early in his reign. (ha) Alternatively, he might have decided to go South of Egypt to Meroë, or west of Italy to Spain. But as he was centered in Greece, my bet is north into Eastern Europe. He already had incentive from a rebellious Thrace.

What would this homecoming have been like? STUPENDOUS, of course. All the stops pulled out. Macedonia was a gift-exchange society, so bringing home a fair bit of booty would be important. We’re told he sent presents home regularly, but this would be above and beyond. It would serve two functions:

First, he’d get to claim to be the wealthiest, most successful Macedonian king EVAR, and then some. So personal fame and honor would be on the line.

Second, throwing around oodles of wealth would be a great recruiting tool. His constant warring meant he was also in constant need of new troops. In his last years, it was clear he was happy to get troops from a variety of peoples, but the Macedonian core remained (as in the Successor Wars). Of course, continually draining Macedonia of men was bad for the future population, but “sustainability” was not in any way an ancient concept, whether in resources or in manpower. Early in his career, he did show a little awareness of this, sending back men for a “conjugal visit,” but as the campaign continued, he stopped worrying about it.

Anyway, he would also probably take the opportunity to build that giant tomb for daddy that was part of his Last Plans. Hard to know how much of those plans were either exaggerated or entirely invented, but that sounds like something he’d do. He might also have taken time to improve on local religious structures (such as at Dion), and set up something (no doubt monstrously large) at both Delphi and Olympia, as panhellenic sites.

As for the reunion with his mother and sisters, as indicated, I don’t think he was staying away to avoid Mommy Dearest. So, I expect he’d have been happy, maybe even overjoyed, to see them again.

[prokopetz]

One of my favourite bits of linguistic trivia is that in Ancient Greek, the word ἰχώρ (cognate to the modern English "ichor") is attested in extant literature to mean both "the bodily fluid which gods possess instead of blood", and also "gravy", which implies several things about Ancient Greek culinary culture's attitude toward gravy.

[nicheguides]

What to Bring to a Hedonist’s Funeral

dont be *that* guy! know your decorum when honoring the passing of a legend who dedicated their life to the pursuit of pleasure

[whereserpentswalk]

Imagine if the US was going to exist as a world power for hundreds of years, but at no point will it get better. Infact it will have a monarchy soon and that fact won't fundamentally change that much about our society. About halfway through all of this scientology will become the state religion. After America's fall the government will exist in exile for another thousand years with Los Angeles as its capital, but historians will call it the empire of New Spain because that fits their narrative better. Future civilizations will glorify us as the peak of human civilization, and future empires will claim they are descendants of us. Vizipop's versions of Abrahamic mythology become the version most people know. A powerful nation in Vietnam will call itself the Holy Republic of America because of how cool everyone thinks we were.

This is a post about ancient Rome. You agree. Reblog.

[kusurrone]

ANCIENT RUS DIVINE COMEDY AU :DDD

dont ask me why i was just feeling like it (couldnt make any of their heights match)

Dante's name is Dusia or Dania (yes the first one sounds like dussy-) and Guido is Glieb :D

Virgil is Vavila (probably shouldve made him old but i need a gusliar bard twink from ancient rus) and Beatrice is Viera

Gemma is Euhienia + bonus little dantino (dushen'ka :з) ina big ass papaha.

of course dante would wear a freaking papaha.

[mythosphere]

Inside every classics major are two wolves. One is alcibiades (whore with hubris) and one is diogenes (hates plato)

[ancient-rome-au]

very cursed alternate history

[eunuchboy]

How could one life encompass such change.

Truly we live more lives than one.

Special thanks to my friend Phoenix (@/iumechuiume) on Twitter for helping me with cultural and historical references!

I tried adding some details that would make it more accurate to the story and worldbuilding of TYORAS, such as minimizing the Western influence in the decor and using Su-style furniture design. I originally wanted to make the artstyle look like something that would exist in-universe (like how TYORAS references other works of literature in narrative style and structure), but eventually just went with my own artstyle. Feel free to lmk about anything I might have missed/ might want to know

[tyrannoninja]

Cleopatra & Amanirenas versus the Romans

The Nile Valley queens Cleopatra of Egypt and Amanirenas of Kush are up against the wrath of the Roman legions! Can our heroines fight their way out of this predicament and defeat one the mightiest armies in the first century BC?

This is of course a fictional “alternate history” scenario I did for the sheer fun of it, but I really like the idea of Cleo and Amani teaming up against Rome. One wonders whether Cleopatra’s Egypt might have held up a little longer with more Kushite support…

[sethian123]

Roman Empire Flag (if the Roman Empire converted to Gnostic Christianity)

[rennymayflower]

ok how about i try one at a time

The very first Caretakers and Heroes to have been recorded in written history. For some, they're but an ancient legend, but for others, their memory will last for thousands of years to come.

[jeannereames]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ALEXANDER THE GREAT!

(Due to a lunar calendar, in 356 BCE, the 6th of Loos fell on July 19th, not July 20th.)

[arthurdrakoni]

Flags of the Athenian Empire

These are the flags of the Athenian Empire.  I couldn’t decide which I liked better, so I went with both of them.  They come from a world where Athens won the Peloponnesian War.  Following the defeat of Sparta, the Delian League was expanded to include the Greek colonies in Italy, the city-states in Anatolia and all of Greece.  All of this new territory meant more treasure for Athens' coffers.  Athens used much of this new-found wealth to expand its military and navy.  The unification of the Greek city-states meant that the Macedonian Conquest never occurred, and Alexander the Great never came to power.  Though it was still known as the Delian League, in reality, all of the city-states knew that they were now part of the Athenian Empire.

The threat of Persia was an ever-looming concern.  Athens funded many rebellions against Persia in regions such as Egypt and the Levant.  Eventually, Athens declared war on the Persian Empire and conquered it in short order.  However, most of the territory was lost within a few generations.  Athens also went on to conquer Carthage, the fledgling Roman Republic and expanded its territory into Gaul.  Athens also expanded into Hispania and the British Isles, but never for too long.  

Following this series of conquest Athens began to focus more intellectualism and the acquisition of knowledge.  Many libraries and centers of learning were founded across the Athenian Empire.  The Athenian Empire never truly fell, but over the years it did lose territory; at its smallest, it was comprised of Greece and Anatolia.  However, Greek influence on language, art and culture is felt throughout its former empire and the world at large.  In many ways, the Athenian Empire can be seen as the Western world's equivalent of China in terms of influence and culture.  

The flags feature an owl clutching an olive branch, symbols of Athens patron goddess Athena.  The colors of the flags are black and orange in reference to Ancient Greek pottery.  The black on the first flag is also a reference to the black sails of Theseus, mythical king of Athens.

Link to the original flags on my blog: http://drakoniandgriffalco.blogspot.com/2017/09/flags-of-athenian-empire.html?m=1

[likealittleheartbeat]

"Scholars often dismiss physique references to ancient Greece as a mere ruse or rhetorical framework--a "classical alibi" or "discourse of validation"--to avoid censorship. But an examination of the lives of the founders, contributors, and members of the [physique studio and pictorial] Grecian Guild [1955-1968] tells a different story. The Grecian Guild was instrumental in helping a community of men struggling to find a discourse to explain and valorize their sense of themselves, particularly men outside of urban gay enclaves. Benson and Bullock [the founders of the Grecian Guild] took a discourse about ancient Greece that gay men had been using for nearly a hundred years and gave it mass distribution. They used it like gay men used reference to "the Greeks" or Mary Renault novels--as a way to signal their homosexuality. It was a rallying cry that brought in customers and helped them imagine a better world. As historian and biographer Benjamin Wise argues about the way Alexander Percy used the language of Hellenism, it was "a way of speaking out and covering up at the same time."

Invoking classical traditions in order to make an argument for gay rights has been largely forgotten in the twenty-first century, as such a line of argumentation has become politically and historiographically problematic. Indeed, much of modern LGBT historical scholarship and queer theory has asserted that a homosexual identity is a creation of a modern, capitalist world--that homosexual behavior in ancient cultures was understood in very different terms from the way it is today. Invoking classical antiquity also smacks of a Western bias that privileges European ancestry over other cultural and historical influences. Such arguments also raise the specter of pederasty and pedophilia--or at least age-discordant relationships--that play into the hands of gay rights opponents who relentlessly use the argument that gays recruit children to fight gay rights measures...

Despite these changes in cultural understandings and sensibilities, the use of the classical Greek trope to name gay organizations, periodicals, and commercial ventures continued for decades, even when the need for an alibi had eroded if not disappeared. The lambda or lowercase Greek "L" became one of the primary symbols of the 1970s gay liberation movement. During this same period Seattle's largest gay organization was the Dorian Group, and a Jacksonville, Florida-based gay magazine called itself David--a reference to Michelangelo's Renaissance statue--an indirect link to the classical tradition. Like the Grecian Guild, David offered membership in a fraternal organization with features such as a book club, a travel service, conventions, and even legal aid. As an online website, it continues to serve as one of Atlanta's premier LGBT news and entertainment sources.

...

While severely limited by the forces of censorship, the desire to create opportunities for customers to correspond, meet, and get acquainted attests to the palpable wish of gay men to connect with each other during this period. If few members attended a Grecian Guild convention, the possibility of doing so resonated widely. As a teenage Grecian Guild subscriber in Pawtucket, Rhode Island, Michael Denneny read the articles so carefully that he underlined the important parts. "That was proto-political organization, the agenda was very clear to me, and I think to everybody else who joined," Denneny remembered..."These magazines were really important to me," Denneny recalled. "They brought this whole possible world into being, which I'm not sure I could have visualized otherwise."

David K. Johnson, Buying Gay: How Physique Entrepreneurs Sparked a Movement

[whereserpentswalk]

They say there's a documentary out there. It's titled by most as "the mammoth hunter". Very few people have seen it, very few people are allowed to. It's the oldest documentary made on earth.

Alien anthropologists, these strange mantis like organisms, came to earth around when homosapiens were just making their way into Europe, to film a documentary on the local culture. They were there for a broader research project but the only thing they left was the documentary.

They weren't there to do anything special. They didn't share any technology with us. Didn't build any great monuments or start any civilizations. They really just wanted to learn more about our culture. It took them awhile to get our ansestors to be ok with interacting with them, but eventually they did, and spent a few years with one tribe.

The documentary is amazing from a modern lense. There is footage of tribesmen, the ansestors of modern humanity, living their lives. There's film of a huntsman taking down a wooly rino, of women hiding from now long dead Saber tooth tigers. And there's footage of them just existing, singing songs, playing with their children, showing the documentary crew how they make stone tools or how they make their art. One of the longest scenes is just of one of them telling on of their people's stories, thousands of years before any of their descendents will have a chance to write a story in stone.

And they were freindly with the crew. Whatever culture was making the documentary they didn't seem like the type to want to colonize or exploit them, or at least that wasn't the goal of the scientists, even if others on their planet would have. They just wanted to learn. And though the tribesmen were scared of them at first, eventually they befriended eachother, and knew eachothers names. The humans let them into their homes, and let them eat their food, and partake in their rituals.

From what we know the second expedition had to leave early. That's actually why we have a copy of the documentary, because they left it there. From scattered notes and things some of the scientists said in the film, we know it's quite possible that the aliens were on the brink of some sort of war on their homeworlds. Many of the scientists seemed to fear that weapons of mass destruction would be used, and reset their civilization to something as primitive as what ours was at the time. Mabye that's part why they thought to make the documentary when they did. A lot of people think they wanted to come back, but they just couldn't.

We don't know where they are now, but we've grown a lot since we last saw that civilization, let's hope we get a chance to see them again, even if our roles have to be reversed, let's hope we can still be freinds after so long.

[fortunaestalta]