#also i've seen people be like ''well why don't we call any female characters 'male coded''' and

[kayvsworld]

okay. like. giving it the benefit of the doubt, right, dipping my toe so slowly back into thinking about the mcu (piranha filled fish tank) as fictional analyzable media (cocks gun),

i just wrote like 3 paragraphs of an unrelated post about how iron man 1 is kind of weird because it puts so much focus on tony's internal struggles re: his social life and Image and Loss Of Agency, the gala sequence, etc.

and how obie's not the kind of villain/villain reveal i'm used to seeing in Superhero Brand Action Movies (family friend betraying you in a weirdly intimate dialogue-heavy scene on your couch in your dimly lit living room). and i had to delete it because like actually all of the iron man movies and their villains and their problems are just kind of Like That

obadiah is his dad's handsy gaslighty friend, hammer is some guy in his field who gets overly familiar when he's trying to avoid him in public, killian is a jilted stalker whose goons zip-tie tony to a bed frame this is not the kind of rogues gallery other guy-written dude superheroes are getting like that's fair i can nod at that i can get that i can see that

like i can't find the old article that went around about this (not the post not the post not the tumblr essay not the post) but insane literal interpretation of "tony stark is WOMAN CODED which makes him less privileged and hating him is misogynistic, losing your agency is INHERENTLY FEMININE" aside, flashbacks i'm having flashbacks, going "hey, they kind of give this guy the kinds of problems and narrative framing of those problems that you might more usually see from Men Writing Women TM during this time period" isn't altogether a meritless take

like we're walking a thin line here, but sure that's an interesting concept to try to dig into, if we're specifically like. evaluating tropes and structures in media that have been usually assigned to cisfemale characters and seeing similarities there and going "huh, neat". like i think that's fine. DOYLISTICALLY

to the anonymous person who helpfully sent me the tony stark is female-coded post when i said i was enjoying finding old tony meta: you are firing gunshots outside my home. through my window even

[agender-witchery]

On Project Moon

Hey, this is gonna be long, I'm putting most of it under the cut. This post is about the recent firing of VellMori from Project Moon, I know that it warrants some tags for triggers, but I have no idea what's commonly used, so if I miss something, please tell me.

Additionally, I have written this up in a way that if it escapes the target audience of Project Moon fans, it can still be understood, so with that in mind, there will be Library of Ruina spoilers.

The tl;dr for those who don't wanna read the full thing is that Project Moon was put in a very bad position with some violent extremists targeting them and that I'm not happy about any of what happened.

So, for those unaware, Project Moon has fired VellMori, the CG artist for Limbus Company. Now, a not inaccurate statement that can be made from this is "Project Moon fired a woman for being a feminist" but this is... somewhat reductive. Let's immediately get out of the way that VellMori did absolutely nothing wrong. Some people have said she is a TERF. I've seen no evidence of this. Some people have said she wished death on all men. I've seen no evidence of this.

What I HAVE seen is that VellMori thinks sexual abuse is bad. Now, why would this lead to a firing? The short answer is that a bunch of violent incels, one of which was literally dressed as a clown, came knocking at their office doors.

See, Limbus Company has a "beach" event coming up. In this event, we are getting a water themed outfit for two of the characters, one male and one female. For Sinclair, the guy, he has been given an EXTREMELY slutty mechanic's outfit. For Ishmael, the woman, she has been given a very skintight wet suit outfit. Now, I wanna take care to note that VellMori is the CG artist - she had no hand in these designs, a man made them. I would also like to mention that both outfit designs are amazing, and I will be including them at the end of this post for reference.

Now, upon revealing the wet suit design for Ishmael, a bunch of whiny incels on what is basically Korean 4chan got upset that Ishmael, instead of being in a bikini as is usual for gacha games, was wearing a wet suit. Nevermind that the designs in Limbus Company have always been conservative and that the Sinclair design is the most skin we've ever seen and it's just an open shirt. Again, the wet suit is still super revealing, it's skin tight and this is literally the first design of her that doesn't make her look flat chested. They're not rioting over the lack of sex appeal, they're specifically mad that it's not a bikini.

The incels come to the conclusion that the lack of any skin being shown on Ishmael's outfit is a result of evil feminism. No, I'm not exaggerating. They initially begin harassing the artist who is actually responsible for drawing the outfits, but upon learning that he is a man, set their sights on VellMori because she's a woman, and being an artist is good enough I guess. What they do from here is they start digging and digging and digging on VellMori's twitter, making use of archived pages because many of the "offensive" tweets had been deleted.

I'd like to take a moment to point out that VellMori never actually tweeted anything out here - it was all retweets from a 4-6 year old archive, and retweets that have been long deleted. These retweets contain such transgressive statements as "I'm sick of misogyny" and "If being against patriarchy makes me antisocial, then so be it" and just... mirroring back to men what those men were saying to women. Some people would like to have you think she was calling for death to all men. She wasn't. She ALSO retweeted all this stuff while she was a teenager and well before she worked for Project Moon.

Nonetheless, the incels had decided that feminism was the reason Ishmael had a wet suit and not a bikini and they had found a feminist working for Project Moon. It is at this point that we must take a brief detour and talk about Library of Ruina, Project Moon's previous game.

See, in Library of Ruina, one of the protagonists, Angela, has this whole arc about escaping her abuser and becoming a human. Yes, she is literally a robot, but Project Moon isn't exactly a stranger to symbolism in their stories and a feminist reading of Angela is ridiculously easy. The main antagonist in Library of Ruina is Argalia, the Blue Reverberation, and his crew is called the Reverberation Ensemble. Every member of the Reverberation Ensemble is a violent lunatic who each want to reinforce the status quo in their own unique shitty way. In addition to this, typically in order to reach the titular Library, you would need to be invited. The Reverb Ensemble are the "uninvited guests", the ones who managed to reach the Library and knock down the door without an invite.

Why am I talking about this? Well, the incels decided to start calling themselves the Reverb Ensemble, and referring to each other using names of the Reverb Ensemble members such as Pluto, Elena, and Oswald. Having taken on the moniker of the uninvited guests, they then showed up to Project Moon's office to protest. Over the lack of a bikini. Now, remember how I mentioned someone was dressed up as a clown? One of the Reverb Ensemble members, Oswald, is a clown with an extremely tenuous grip on reality. So much so, that his ideal world is one in which there is no meaning whatsoever. That is the character they chose to dress up as. This is either a case of extreme self awareness or extreme self unawareness.

Eventually, the incels were let into the office possibly as a form of damage mitigation to prevent the crowd of protestors from getting any bigger. This was a questionable decision, but they had a group of violent incels at their doorstep either way, and I don't exactly have full details on this. Regardless, Project Moon had on their hands a group of violent protesting incels, who they felt compelled to let into the building, and who had demands including the firing of their feminist employee. (7/28 update: a translation of the transcript posted to DCInside has surfaced. Please check the reblogs for it. Project Moon was verifiably threatened.)

So while "Project Moon fired a woman for being a feminist" isn't inaccurate it also isn't the full picture. More appropriately, it'd be "Project Moon fired a woman because a group of violent incels who weren't satisfied with a form fitting wet suit instead of a bikini showed up to their office demanding that an artist who did not make the wet suit design be fired because she retweeted some feminist stuff 5 years ago while she was a teenager".

I'm not happy with this. None of this is good. People are allowed to be feminists, and Project Moon stories have always presented progressive ideas to anyone with half a brain to do some basic literary analysis. I can understand why they would cave to the demands of people who were threatening them and showed up to their actual place of work, but at the same time, that's someone's livelihood gone and proof that in the future, the same sorts of people can use the same sorts of tactics to bully Project Moon into doing whatever they want. All of this sucks.

For those who would like to see the retweets in question alongside translations: https://twitter.com/danghwangs/status/1683884236888223744

And for people who would like reference as to what the artworks these incels were up in arms about, Ishmael in the wet suit and Sinclair in the mechanic's outfit.

[kithj]

the more people complain about genderlocked characters i feel like the more stubborn i get about it...

i just feel like. there's a fine line between wanting to see yourself reflected in the art you engage with (everybody wants this to some extent) versus just straight up refusing to engage with any kind of art that you can't personally relate to.

and sure you can argue it's not that deep when we're just talking about romance games i guess but usually this extends beyond just IF romance games, i see it on bookstagram or in mainstream video gaming circles, too... and particularly in IF & gaming it tends to lead to this very entitled attitude where if the thing doesn't appeal exactly to what you personally want, then it's Bad and Wrong.

i definitely understand in some instances, as a butch lesbian there is like... no game even off the top of my head that i can think of that actually has someone that looks like me in it (except for the stuff i've personally written. lol) and i do really like the gender-selection mechanic for this reason. most of the time it's the only way we get sapphic ROs. but to me that's just a band-aid and not a real solution, especially when a lot of authors tend to lean on bioessentialist ideas to depict the gender-selectable variants, and most of the time don't even seem to be aware that they're doing it.

i would much prefer actual female characters, or actual trans characters, over gender-selectable characters. because the other thing we see is that a lot of the time the male variation is the most popular, and is seen as the "default." this is through no fault of the author, really, it's just how the cookie crumbles, i guess.... i don't really know what the solution is but i do really wish people would be more mindful about... well. all of it. authors and readers alike. and maybe broaden your horizons and read something that's different for you, or write something challenging outside of your comfort zone. i get that a lot of these games are pure wish fulfillment, and that's fine, we're not all going to like or want the same things. but when most games don't include people like me, i'm forced to pick from a much smaller pool of fish than everyone else, and i don't agree with that. both in that i wish there were more options for me, obviously, but also that i shouldn't only limit myself to games that "represent" me and am still willing to reach for something different and still give it a chance. both things can be true.

now when a game is intentionally excluding entire groups of people, of course that needs to be called into question. because then it's just bigotry, and we all know bigotry is bad, yes? a game that... let's say. only allows white mcs. is going to attract a particular kind of audience. we know this we can acknowledge this. but i do also kinda think it's a waste of time to try and appeal to authors like this... i'm not against offering feedback but at the end of the day these authors excluded these people for a reason and they have no interest in us. don't bother. there are other authors out there that are writing women and trans people and poc that you can read instead of trying to get a misogynist or a racist or a transphobe to write about people they clearly don't give a shit about.

and i really feel like that encapsulates why i both like and dislike the gender-selectable mechanic... again it's just a temporary band-aid. it lets me play a sapphic mc for a little while. but the larger problem still remains which is that there are no depictions of butch lesbians (or lesbians in general) in most of these games, and there are not a lot of authors out there willing to even try. there are a lot of instances where i feel the gender-selection mechanic is just... a cop out. there's no thought or effort put into it.

i dont think every single author needs to start genderlocking or anything (that would be stupid) i just wish it was something both authors and readers would spend more time thinking about, rather than just automatically defaulting to gender-selection. people approaching Blood Choke and then complaining that it's all genderlocked but... the story is About being a lesbian. it would not exist in any other way. and the beautiful thing is that you can still read it even if you're not a lesbian! in fact i wish more people would. again, reach for something different and you might find that you actually like it. you might even connect with it in a way that surprises you. meanwhile The Northern Passage has a lot of options for the mc both in the character creator and when it comes to romance options. i have a gender-selectable character there, and a lot of people enjoy that, and i do too. and i also chose to lock Clementine originally because i knew i wanted there to be a nonbinary RO that could not be ignored (and then the other two followed shortly after once i started writing).

there's Nuance. there are lots of reasons to genderlock and there are lots of reasons why someone might not. there are games out there that let me play with an all female cast that i hate, other games with a mixed, genderlocked cast that i love. there are authors out there that do handle their gender-selectable characters well, some of my favorite games utilize it! and there are genderlocked games that are all just skinny white cis people that make me recoil. there are downsides to both. this is not an either-or situation. it's just something to think about, both when creating a character as an author and when engaging with a work as a reader.👍

[ultimate-marysue]

I feel like the misogyny in fandom is only partially the fandom's fault. Let me explain: if the piece of media you're a fan of has a 50/50 female to male ratio, and treats its female characters with the same love, nuance and respect they treat their male characters with... Obviously you have a bigger chance of having your favorite character be a woman instead of a men.

If there's only one or two women, if they're written like shit, if they're not allowed the same complexity (because they're just set dressing or because "feminism dictates female characters can't have flaws" lest they call you out) well obviously you're gonna gravitate to the more nuanced male characters. If you don't care enough to write compelling female characters why should the audience feel compelled?

Don't get me wrong, even great female characters get sidelined in favor of "tall dudes with (dubiously) homoerotic tension". But in fandoms with majority female characters/really compelling female leads, the vibes are completely different. Even if there are still assholes. A great example is the fandom of Game of Thrones vs the fandom of A Song of Ice and Fire. When all your female characters either feel the same brand of girlboss/badass or are framed as annoying/evil while most of your male characters (even the evil ones) are painted as cool and badass as opposed to having a full cast of nuanced characters of both genders... yeah misogyny is gonna happen.

So yeah, we do need to work on our internalized misogyny and we do need to point out when we or the fandom treat female characters unfairly. But we also need more stories that love their female characters as much as their male counterparts. No one has the guts to hate on the female characters of The Locked Tomb Series. Mostly because why would you read a book with a mostly queer female cast about necromancy and the awfulness of love if you hated complex female characters??

We should try to give more attention to those stories. Once you start asking "isn't it weird there's no interesting women here?" When you watch/read/listen to a story you find yourself not caring much for a lot of shows. Hell it's why I can't watch most shonen anymore and why I gave up on supernatural at some point. As a "consumer" (hate that word) I also have the option to stop caring about a show that clearly doesn't care about me (or any woman for that matter).

Does this mean you can't read Sasunaru fanfic anymore? No, but when you start a new show you might want to keep that question in mind. And you also may want to consider specifically searching out for works about women or that care about their female cast as much as their male counterparts.

The fandoms don't yearn for the misogyny as much as we think. I've seen some fandom really work the terribly written female characters into extremely compelling stories. Or write new female characters in fandoms with barely any (shout out to "Local Skate Dads Adopt Three Sons and a Hooligan" for adding like three new female characters to a show with one and a half).

Our internalized misogyny is left alone to fester in a desert, deprived of good female characters. Of course people develop an almost paraphilic obsession with M/M ships when they've been trained from birth on shows that don't care for their female cast (if they have any). We center men because society centers men. And we have to do the individual job of decentering men/centering women while also aknowledging that the people that make our shows aren't doing the job.

Also if you're reading this and wondering "what even is good female representation? What kind of show should I watch?" Read the locked tomb series. Trust me, it is a religious experience (not just for women, it has so much gender in it).

Has this all been a ploy to get you to read about TLT? Yes. I also recommend The Magnus Protocol for podcasts, and Derry Girls for tv shows. They're all so good.

[ultramarine-spirit]

Hello Mari, I'm not here to ask about something about wmmap but rather about another issue that has been bothering me in particular...

It's about female characters in abusive relationships.

So, I guess you already know that there are quite a few manhwas where the female lead ends up in a relationship with a very abusive male character and everyone hates him for that, right? Well that's not exactly my problem, no one likes to read couples that romanticize abuse, I understand why people hate it, I do it too, especially the male lead. My problem comes with the hatred of the female lead.

Okay, hate the relationship, I hate the guy for being a jerk but I don't like that they hate the female leads for staying with them. Many of these protagonists always have stories where they suffered abuse as children because the father hated them or the family ignored them, etc. At least to me it makes sense that a person who grew up this way can't fully distinguish what is healthy love from one that is not. If all you knew in your life was abuse, then why would you view abuse from your partner negatively?

And with this I do not intend to justify the couple, that it is okay for them to be together and that they should be together, of course not. I am completely against that.

My point is to stop hating fl for choosing the abusive ml!! I feel like that is like blaming the victim, if in a relationship the man is the abusive one and she still decides to stay with him it is still not his fault! Instead of hating the fl by calling it "stupid" or "annoying" they should try to understand the protagonist and hate the author for creating something like that.

I know that many of these stories are not for the purpose of showing an abusive relationship but rather they really sell it as if it were the best love story of all, but if we are able to use our criteria to know that the relationship is wrong then we should be able to understand that it is not the fl's fault for continuing to love her abuser.

I have thought about this for a long time but it resurfaced in me when this new webtoon came out called Beg or better yet, Cry. I have seen many criticize and hate the protagonist, Layla, for staying with Matthias but the girl suffered a lot of abuse, it is not her fault for not knowing what a healthy relationship is, and the guy did everything possible to abuse her.

I come to you because you really are the most reasonable in the entire manhwa community that I have found, those on Twitter are a bit weird (and in fact i saw these types of comments from them) I want to know if I am really the only one who thinks like this and I am overthinking it or not?

(Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy!)

I'm probably going to say something that will get some people mad, but manhwa readers aren't particularly progressive/feminist. Yes, even if most readers are young women and even if they claim to be feminists. So you have situations like the one you just described (I haven't read/seen the manhwa you are specifically referencing, but I definitely believe people would hate a FL based on those reasons), people hating on a FL for not choosing the ML they like, etc. I remember some people were even angry at Athy when she said she wasn't thinking about marriage yet (she is 15-6), because she didn't choose Ijekiel, and also because she didn't kiss Lucas. This misogynistic behavior is also pretty easy to spot just by paying attention to how readers treat any female character that's not the FL (I swear, as soon as a female character is introduced you'll have people commenting "She better not be a bitch" or something along those lines). Stanning the FL means nothing if you think she is the only good female character, or if the only female characters you like are the ones that are subservient to her.

But to be fair, otome isekai manhwa itself is not a particularly progressive genre either, so maybe it makes sense that it attracts readers like that. Of course, there are exceptions, but in general, the most a manhwa will do is portray the FL as a swallow caricature of a "girlboss". MLs are allowed to have plenty of flaws, but the moment a FL doesn't follow that (honestly, very boring) archetype, has ugly flaws, or dares to go against the ML's wishes, a lot of fans will hate her.

My theory is that the manhwa fandom has the worst of both the kpop and anime fandoms, so that's why this happens.

[lemonhemlock]

I find it funny that there are quite a few anti Helaemonds out there who are Team Black. They have various reasons why they're against it but it's mainly because they hate Aemond with a passion and think the ship being canon would whitewash him even more and claim that Helaena deserves more than being just another love interest for a male character…Well, it's not that I have anything against that argument but the thing is the very same people write essays justifying B&C, they make fun of her suicide telling people on Twitter (Green leaning users obviously) they're fighting with to "Helaena yourself" whenever they disagree with them, call her a freak and now they want to pretend they care about her and other Green female characters. Give me a break. They're also quite mad at the idea of the writers borrowing elements from the Aemon/Naerys/Aegon dynamic to Helaegond…but because it would be an offense to Aemon to do that since Aemond is nothing like him, as if the general audience would even know about those three to care about it. Another claim I've seen recently from one of these people is that we only ship it because we want our own popular ship against Da*myra which is…crazy. Why is it that people from BOTH sides think we're shipping it to piss them off? Green antis think we're doing it to shove incest down their throats while the other ones think we're jealous of Daemyra, among other things. No, people ship things because they like those things, nothing more.

you're telling me that "helaena yourself" is an actual slang expression that came out of this fandom? good lord

the amount of double-sided cringe - on the one hand, thinking what a clever retort it must be to suicide bait randos on the internet; on the other hand, taking a character who was universally considered the least problematic and mocking them for succumbing to grief after living through a traumatic event ... ? lame. the only thing it's giving is hatred against women and any expression of innocence

people shouldn't be so quick to stan prince aemon though!! after all, he did fuck all to protect naerys from aegon iv (we'll see if we ever get FB vol II if i'm being harsh or not, but had i been in his place my brother would have suffered a little staircase accident or slipped on a banana peel)

as to people shipping helaemond just to piss others off, that's just comical. how do you generate that level of artwork and fics and general fandom interest in a reactive ship? most of the stuff i've seen is organic and independent of any other shipping dynamics. people very clearly got it from the show, yes, bc they don't interact in FB,* but they really liked the presentation and concept & just went with it - it's not some big conspiracy here

*meaning to say the maester writing FB didn't bother to find records of their interactions bc why would he? it's supposed to be a historical textbook, it's not really relevant to the plot

[happytaffeta]

I'm tired and angry and scared don't mind me. Feeling some kinda way about a lot of things tonight.

TW self-harm ideation mention near the end, familial difficulty adapting that may read as transphobia out of context and I provide not much context in the first few bits.

Like how long it took to even begin to find the words for what it is to be me. And it's not like my parents didn't try to be supportive, we just had no clear direction. My mom, whom I know is trying, and has been trying literally since before I was conceived, and that time she said that she looked up pictures of people who'd had mastectomies and they looked mutilated to her, and how could anyone want that? Then a few months later I showed her a photo of a nice fella here on tumblr because I wanted to show her his shirt, cause I'm making a similar one, and it came up that he's trans, and has had top surgery, and she said he just looks like a guy, and she reiterated that the pictures she had seen before were upsetting but this guy's pictures were not. And me, sitting there, like, 'Yeah because he had time to heal and is wearing a shirt he made specifically to fit him the way he likes and feels good in his skin, he is indeed just a guy.' My dad who is also trying, who sometimes slips and calls me my childhood nickname or 'daughter' instead of 'kid' and then gets flustered and apologetic. It's sort of endearing, but it still feels weird. My maternal grandmother, who passed away before I ever found the words, let alone the courage, who was the most likely to have been the one among my grandparents to be chill with it all, who loved hummingbirds and manatees and bluebirds and yellow roses. My childhood, years and years spent insisting that I was not a lady, playing the role of dad in games of house with other kids, taken immediately with visually androgynous cartoon characters of all sorts as well as identifying with blatantly masculine and blatantly feminine male characters, but rarely identifying with female characters of any kind unless they were specifically about my age and androgynous or masculine presenting. Wearing dresses and feeling pretty but rarely, if ever, in a girl way. The fact that even now I still guess people's genders based on context clues and I get it wrong, and I still can't break the habit even though I've been through that myself all my life.

The fact that I have had to put up with breasts and bras and all the nonsense that comes with them since I was ten or eleven and the first training bra made its way into my life, and even now that I have words for why I hate them, no one will help me get the damn things removed.

The recurring, entirely non-actionable, thoughts about just taking matters into my own hands(I am not in danger of hurting me, don't worry. I can tell the difference between a passing thought that is casually occurring in a moment of frustration and an urge I need active help dealing with, I have decades of practice, I will be okay).

[lonelier-version-of-you]

Not related to anything specific but the only thing worse than allistics being like ‘you’re missing the point diagnosing (character) as autistic! They’re just quirky with a bad home life!’ Is media neurodivergents saying that and pulling the ‘but I’m neurodivergent so you can’t tell me I’m wrong’ card. Like what the fuck is that? They always act so superior about it too.

Also I think people need to reckon with the fact that in a pushback against the rude savant stereotype the community now acts like the only valid rep is weirdly sexless uwu innocent infantilised characters especially concerning non male characters. Every time I hear someone say a char is bad rep because they’re not a sweet socially acceptable angel or ‘too stereotypical’ I roll my eyes- *I* am stereotypical under the masking and we’re ppl not, like, moral lessons??

Yeah, I've seen that sometimes and it is really irritating. I hate it when people think their interpretation of a character is The Only Valid Interpretation, and particularly when they pull the "well I'm actually [insert neurodivergence here] so I know this character can't be that" - or "well I'm actually queer so I know this character can't be that", I've seen that too - when they're... talking to someone who is also neurodivergent or queer or whatever in the same ways as them. It makes me want to shout "your opinion is not the only valid one!".

And yeah, I agree that some people have really just reacted to certain autism stereotypes by being like "oh, the answer to this is to stereotype all autistic people, but like, the other way around!". Like... no, we shouldn't be stereotyping at all?? I feel like "stereotypical representation" is a useless phrase when it comes to autism at this point, because some people use it to mean rep that's like "oh this cishet white man character is a bigot and hates women but it's ok because he's autistic uwu" (*cough* Atypical *cough*), but then other people use it to mean... any character who doesn't align with their exact personal experiences. And when it comes to reading characters as autistic, I feel like people are simultaneously like "you can't say they're autistic, they're smart, so it's a stereotype!" and like "you can't say they're autistic, they're not smart, you're stereotyping autistic people as stupid!". (The latter really annoys me as an autistic person who isn't smart.) I don't even know what people want, are we supposed to never call characters autistic at all?? Also, like, as I sort of already said lol, a lot of this supposed ~pile of representation~ for "stereotypically" autistic people is representation specifically for well-off, cishet, white men (Atypical, Rain Man, The Good Doctor, etc. etc.). It's not actually representing anyone who doesn't fit into that little group, even if they have stereotypical traits!

I was probably not coherent with any of this but yeah, I definitely get your frustration. (This sort of discourse is one of many, many reasons why I basically stopped engaging with autism circles on the internet.) I'm glad the Holby fandom isn't bigger, lol, because otherwise I feel like I wouldn't be able to call any character autistic without getting yelled at about "stereotyping" (Henrik, Arthur, and Eli would all probably be deemed "too smart" and therefore stereotypes, Chantelle would probably be deemed "too stupid" and thus a stereotype). (Also, it's interesting that you brought up gender because I've definitely noticed that there seems to be a thing with autistic/autistic-coded male characters where if they don't already fit the "uwu sweet angel" trope, fandom simply infantilises them until they do fit - at least, this is what happens with Henrik. I hardly ever see it happen in the same way with autistic/autistic-coded female characters.)

[just-a-little-unionoid]

Okay but honestly that's on you if you didn't get that Félix had an objective in mind from the begining? Cuz like, personally I totally saw it? Arguably I was wrong about the actual objective, I thought he just wanted the rings (I had a theory about it, which was that they were the Gemini Miraculous, and he wanted them both because of that and also just bc they were family heirloom), and it turned out it wasn't exactly wrong but I was wrong on the reason. Anyway, point is that in the very first episode he had reasons for what he did, and the title itself was an extradiegetical clue about him being the actual villain of the episode, not the trio or Hawkmoth, meaning that there was something deeper.

I have to admit the whole senti thing feels rushed and not thought through from the start, I won't deny it, like I said I had a whole theory about all of this (in which Félix and Adrien where still magical boys but from a different miraculous, without mind control)

Frankly not telling LB was dumb but that's not necessary bad writing, from what we know to this day (again, could not have been that was intended at first) he's a traumatized teenager and saw multiple times LB and CN kill people like him, I would say it's not inconsistant that he didn't want to tell them he and his cousin were Sentis.

That's literally just not true, the main antagonist is a man, and he won't get any redemption. You can't say with a straight face that male and female characters are treated differently about redemption when you literally have Gabriel out there currently dying for his crimes, when he also had numerous chances to stop and he didn't. And don't tell me there are more antagonists female characters bc frankly, beside Félix, how much male villains are redeemed? The whole story is female driven, of course there are more female antagonists.

And like I would get you point if much more male antagonists were redeemed when female one were not, in proportion I mean, but it's just not the case 🤷

Also sorry I've seen the last two episodes out and "actively discourage anyone from sympathizing with Chloé"? Agree to disagree on that. It's very clear that the girl suffer a lot, and to me it doesn't seem like any kind of "Karma", you're supposed to feel bad for her. She was also sympathetic in season 2 and 3, so why would be the point if not for us to sympathize?

Listen, I get that this show is overall poorly written, but still give the writers some credit? If you sympathize with Chloé it's mostly because you were meant to. They gave explicit and implicit reasons why she is like she is, she's not just evil for the sake of it, but there are also reasons why her and Félix act differently, they don't have the same traumas at all, they are also just not the same characters, why would they even remotely act the same? (and again they're not telling the same story)

Also Félix was never exactly a bully? He was mean but that was mostly to get people akumatized, at no point he made people suffer just for the bit ?

Well, I hear you but my point still is that it's not a good reason. I stand on my positions about treating them so differently (in one post appart, could have as well be the same) is a huge double standard and very hypocritical.

Pretty sure he was calling them that not just for being Chloé stans but for harassing him about being mean to her like she was an actual person. You can like a character without being weird about it, you can like a character without trying to excuse all their bad actions.

Again that's your opinion, maybe you find him unlikeable (which people also think about Chloé but here you don't want to hear that anyway), but some people do. I personally sympathize a lot with an autistic and borderline coded teenager who does shit because of his traumas. You don't have to, but don't act like your experience is universal.

Also I can be wrong but I don't really think that's what OP was talking about anyway

If you feel bad for Andre or Felix, GTFO off my page.

[mahoutoons]

the sonic franchise has a misogyny problem

hello everyone, are you ready for another long essay by me? because i sure am. this has been on my mind for a while now. i've already talked about how the sonic fandom tends to treat the female characters worse than the male characters. but what about the franchise? do they treat the female characters better? well, in this essay i'm gonna talk about the misogynistic aspects of the sonic franchise. i'm not just gonna focus on the games, but also on other adaptations. so sit back, and lets have a long talk.

(art by evan stanley)

the lack of recurring female characters

quick question, how many recurring female characters can you name off the top of your head? no, the non game characters don't count, and no, the ones who only appeared in one game and then disappeared don't count. i can only name four recurring female characters - amy, blaze, rouge, and cream. maybe vanilla too. compare that to the amount of recurring male characters - we have sonic, tails, knuckles, shadow, silver, the chaotix, eggman. yeah you can see the problem. and these four characters aren't even utilized that well as of late. blaze especially has so much potential. she lives in another dimension for christ's sake. but sega just doesn't do anything with her. she deserves her own game to explore her dimension. like, there's so much potential with these characters but they just don't do much with them.

the way they treat their lead female character

amy rose is the main female character of the sonic franchise. i've already written an entire essay on how she's treated so i'm gonna try and keep this short. the way sega used to treat their main female character is appalling. she already got enough hate from the fandom, and sega just didn't make it better. just look at how the social media team used to treat her

i have never seen any sonic characters get this much jabs from the social media team as her. heck, i've never seen a lead female videogame character get treated as badly as amy. and the way they purposely go to exclude her? just look at what happened with mania. it was supposed to be a celebration of all things classic sonic but they didn't have her there even though she was a classic character. instead they brought two characters from an obscure arcade game. which... yeah its nice to see obscure characters get the chance to shine but you don't have to exclude a main character for that. and even in origins, though she's in the marketing and cutscenes, she's not playable. why? and before you say "oh its because she wasn't playable before", tails and knuckles weren't playable in sonic 1 either yet they were able to be included there. so what's wrong with making amy playable? what else am i supposed to call the purposeful exclusion of the classic era's only female character other than misogyny? seriously, i've never seen any other franchise do this to their lead female character. even PRINCESS PEACH gets treated better. peach got her own damn game. what's sega's excuse? if they treat their lead female like this, what does it say about how they treat their other female characters?

and one last thing. i've already touched on this before but it makes me angry so i'm gonna rant on it again. the way sega seems to think amy's role in sa2 in reminding shadow of his true promise to maria is replaceable. and every time she's been replaced, its a male character who took her place (chris in x, implied to be sonic in archie). and honestly, i don't have high hopes that they'll let her keep that role in the movie either. i don't even have high hopes that she'll appear in the movie. forgive me for being a negative nancy but i've been disappointed too many times.

archie's treatment of its female characters

lets talk about archie now. pre reboot archie sonic, especially before flynn came around, was an embarrassment to the franchise for many reasons. but what i don't see many people talking about is how they treated their female characters.

lets start with sally, since she's the comic's lead female. those who know her from satam know her as the leader of the freedom fighters, a strategic genius, a no nonsense princess who is determined in her goals. but in archie, especially when penders came along, her agency was taken away. once king max was rescued, penders didn't know what to do with sally. so she had little personality besides being a princess. and need i mention how he tried to kill off sally in the most anticlimatic way? she spent most of the time after the endgame arc being stuck in the castle, not joining sonic and co on battles like she used to. and need i mention the utterly disgusting aspect that is her """"""relationship""""" with geoffrey? there is one issue i particularly remember when geoffrey kissed sally without her consent and sonic saw it from afar. what does he do? does he confront geoffrey about it? does he protect sally? nope, he just thinks that sally is trying to make him jealous. what the fuck?! she's legit being sexually harassed and you're just going to blame her for it? i know this was the 90s but STILL. and to make matters worse, sally is 16 while geoffrey is in his 20s.

and let me talk about how characters are introduced solely to be a love interest. like mina mongoose. i've got nothing against her but lets face it, she was introduced solely to create drama in sonic and sally's relationship. and they even gave her super speed just so she could have something sally didn't, so she could be a "competition" to sally. they didn't even do anything with it later. and flynn has it retconned so that mammoth mogul was the one that gave her that power.

and speaking of which..... ig every female character has taken interest in sonic at one point. we have sally, amy, mina, fiona, bunnie.... it seemed like they wanted sonic to have as many love interests as possible. i mean just look at this cover

and if they weren't into sonic, they were into any other boy. mostly knuckles. and speaking of which, lets talk about julie-su. she's supposed to be this strong woman type character but penders made her whole personality being knuckles' gf. she occassionally showed her "girl power" when she was sticking it to vector (who was turned into a misogynistic asshole to make julie look good. granted this was before heroes gave him a personality but after that you'd think they'd change up vector's character). flynn and occassionally bollers tried to make her interesting but she just didn't do it for me imo. and lara-su, knuckles' daughter who was supposed to be the main character of the "mobius: 25 years later" arc, got sidelined in her own arc. she doesn't have much of a personality there other than wanting to be the next guardian.

now when flynn came along the treatment of the female characters got better. and even more so after the reboot. but i feel like this is something we should talk about.

"only male hedgehogs can go super"

this is, without a doubt, the stupidest mandate ever. i get it, going super is something not everyone can do and if that was the case, the super form would lose its specialness. but why specify only male hedgehogs? the "hedgehogs" part is already stupid enough because tails and knuckles have gone super before, but why the "male" part? why specify that? seriously, give me one good reason why only make hedgehogs should be able to go super. i can't think of any reason this mandate exists besides sexism.

female characters being less utilized than male characters

this kind of ties in to the first point, but the female characters are generally less explored than the male characters. we have few recurring female characters and sega doesn't even utilize them that much. again, blaze has so much potential. there's so much about her to be explored, but sega just..... doesn't do that. we don't even see her much in the games anymore.

and lately, cream is also being excluded from the games. the last mainline game she appeared in was generations. and tell me, what was the reason for cream to be replaced by the chao in team sonic racing? this is amy's little sister figure, and you're just gonna replace her without giving an explanation as to where she is? at least with espio and charmy, they had a reason to not be with vector here. but with cream, there's no reason she's not here.

the female characters have so much potential. they have interesting aspects to them, dare i say it, some of them are even more interesting than the male characters. but sega just doesn't see that.

that's all for my rant. in short, sega has a history of mistreating or underutilizing their female characters as compared to their male characters. though its getting a bit better, they still have a long way to go.

[blueteller]

"To eat your cake and still have it" – Mary Sues VS Misunderstood MCs

I started wondering about something recently. Namely, why isn't Cale Henituse a Mary Sue?

"Gasp! But Blue Teller!" – you say. "How could you possibly accuse Cale of being a Mary Sue?! No one would dare say such a thing!" Just, hear me out for a moment.

While people's opinions vary on what exactly a "Mary Sue" is, I think most of use have the basics down: it's basically the type of protagonist you see in badly written fiction (commonly fanfiction specifically) – usually female, but can be male as well (although it's rarer to see male characters openly condemned by the audience for being Over-Powered and One-Dimensional due to stereotypes). Male counterpart is sometimes called "Gary Stue", but I'll keep using MS for simplicity.

MS is perfect, doesn't have flaws – or at least any "real" flaws, for example she's allowed to be "clumsy" or have "low self-esteem" because those traits still make her attractive. She is gifted, talented, beautiful (although she's mostly unaware of it) and everything goes right for her. Everybody adores her and she is objectively The Best. Anyone who disagrees with her is the Bag Guy. Often the object of romantic interest for many, MANY people around her, because of course everybody is attracted to Mary Sue! She's allowed to have a tragic backstory, but within the story itself she rarely experiences any hardships or failures. The world itself seems to be only interested in her alone, even reality bends in order for her to be successful.

You know, that type of character.

So now you might be thinking: doesn't that sound suspiciously close to a certain favorite red-head of ours??

So we go back to the main question – how is Cale not a MS?? Because most of the typical MS traits I pointed out seem to be true for him! Even how he has very few "real" flaws, but those usually make him only more attractive!

Not all of the things I described MS with line up with Cale, obviously; he experiences failure, both past and present, and he suffers a lot. More importantly, Cale is by no means a badly-written character.

MS is a typical Good Protagonist. Her intentions are pure, or at least mostly. We take it at face value that she's In The Right, or at least we're supposed to. Cale is more morally complex than a typical Good Protagonist from the get go, but that's not what makes him different: it's the fact that he acknowledges the complexities of morality. He doesn't simply seperate people by them being "good" and "bad". Everybody has their own goals and interests, including Cale. Just because other people's opinions don't align with him 100% doesn't make them his enemies. He is also often biased, or even wrong.

We are set up to root for him, obviously, but he's not Unquestionably in the Right. However, he still receives the same amount of glory and attention that a MS gets for being the Perfect Protagonist.

But just what is it about him that makes him work, though? What makes him different? Why is a typical MS considered "shallow" and "badly written", while Cale is one of the best and most compelling characters I've seen in a while?

Well, most of the answers to those questions can be summed up in a single word: misunderstandings.

Let's face it – having a character we root for receive fame and attention can be very gratifying. But it's exactly that feeling which some (usually amateur) authors get drunk on, and eventually go too far with it, creating an Unrealistically Perfect Objects of Admiration – which in turn makes them too feel too fake to make them relatable, especially if they are too pretty and OP on the top of everything. They stop being a fun character, and become One-Dimensional like a stock image, a statue; basically a caricature of the very good protagonist they're supposed to be.

However, there is a solution to that: to make a character receive all the glory while not being a MS. And that's the Power of Misunderstandings!

Yes, the way to eat your cake and still have it in your possession… Have a character who is in fact flawed and commits errors. But due to circumstances and wacky hijinks, as well as some seriously thick Rose Glasses on, the MC's companions constantly misunderstand the situation! Now the MC still gets all the credit without sacrificing their character for the sake of fanservice!

It's the perfect solution!

It's not the only story where I've seen this trope, but TCF excels at it. The story thrives on the comedy of misuderstandings, creating fabulous scenarios. Cale gets misunderstood by countless people in countless ways throughout the novel. All of these accidentally create the image of a MS-worthy hero, except he's not like that at all! Furthermore, he hates it! He hates being percieved as something he is NOT! And it's hilarious!

That is how it is done in modern era, my friends. We no longer need to deprive ourselves of cake in order to still have it. After all… now CTRL+C exists, hahaha! 🎂🎂🎂

[chubbletea]

Why I think Shuichi is TRANS

I don't believe Shuichi is trans coded, but he has many trans male attributes that I noticed and highly believe he's trans because of it

I know it's a popular-ish headcanon in the fandom, and a lot of the time I just headcanon characters as trans just because. why not

I'm also elaborating on this because I can and want to, and I would like other people to see my perspective on it

Also please don't debate with me on this unless it's a joke, since I haven't seen much of Shuichi outside of ndrv3

anyways strap in folks this is gonna be a long one

1. Feminine looks

Every afab (assigned female at birth) person tends to be described as feminine

and, especially when it comes to men, Shuichi looks very feminine, even so much to the point where a few characters thought Shuichi was a girl in the manga (see below)

Alongside the manga panels of those few characters thinking Shuichi could possibly be a girl, even the wiki says that his eyelashes are feminine, and it's not only that, he just looks feminine in general.

And I'm not saying that men can't be feminine, they can be feminine as much as they like, but it's not things that Shuichi could change that are just feminine, it's just him in general that's feminine too. As in, his body (no not genitals you dirty-minded bitch /lh)

Anyways here's some images of Shuichi incase you need reminded of visuals

(focusing on Shuichi in these pics. And no, I'm not calling Shuichi feminine for expressing emotions)

See, it isn't really as visible as it is in his sprites, but that's what I'm about to discuss

2. Baggy(-ish?) clothing

I've seen some stuff about transmasc/trans male people, and heard from them that they tend to wear baggy clothing to hide their femininity, typically their boobs but it can really be anything when it comes to baggy clothing

And you maybe be thinking- "Shuichi's clothes aren't baggy"

Well, let me show you this-

See? It's slightly big on him. Plus, he's wearing two layers; his shirt and his jacket

I've seen multiple trans boys say that they like to wear multiple layers or baggy clothing to hide their femininity, and Shuichi is doing both; wearing more than one layer and his clothing is slightly baggy

Bonus points since he rarely takes it off

Even MORE bonus points since he wears a jacket on his swimsuit sprite! (sorry for the shit quality)

3. The ahoge jokes

Okay.

You might be thinking- "It's just a joke"

Well, yes, it is so, BUT! We should still consider it for this analysis

(for those of you who don't know the joke, here it is-)

It's a design gimmick the Danganronpa artist(s) use(? Is that the right word for it?)

Shuichi's ahoge is slightly spiked, if you squint

Either way, Komaru's debut, Danganronpa Ultra Despair Girls, came out before ndrv3, and Kaede was introduced before Shuichi was as well

So do you think it's normal to switch the consistent design of the male protag's ahoge to look more like a female protag's one?? while the designers know of this change??? mmmm I'm lookin at the trans flag!!

4. Stereotypes

Well, he has two gender-aligned stereotypes that go along with him

He looks like a stereotypical tomboy

He's a little associated with the "trans male uwu soft boy" stereotype

Shuichi's only partially stereotyped with those, but I will still elaborate on them

The stereotypical tomboy look is a girl with short hair while wearing a jacket, no skirt, and usually a hat and enjoying more "masculine-aligned" activities. While I don't believe that any activities are masculine or feminine aligned, it's just what society says and we're talking stereotypes here soooooo

The second stereotype, the one about trans men, is that they're shy and "soft"

While Shuichi can speak up and get serious if he needs to, and has done so before, he tends to avoid doing so when he can, and it's clear that he's shy and a bit stuttery, which is a trans boy stereotype (the stereotypes aren't true btw they're just rude)

So!

Yeah, this is why I think Shuichi is trans

Feel free to add on if you'd like, I'd love to see more evidence! Like I said, I haven't seen much outside of ndrv3!

Also, I apologize if this is a bad analysis, I haven't done one in awhile if I have ever even made one lol

I have never elaborated so much on a headcanon good GOD *slams my head on a desk*

Reblogs appreciated!

[antiloreolympus]

10 Anti LO Asks

1. The more i think about it, the more parallels i find between lore olympus and another less-known webtoon called "the shadow prophet". No, i don't imply they are in any way similar genre- or plot-wise or that one copies the other but hear me out: the themes

Shadow prophet, like LO, deals with age gap (and does not romanticise it at all), nepotism, utopian society with dubious morals and leaders, privileges and how bad their impact on all of the involved can get if something goes wrong and paints them in a way that they are constant obstacles for everyone involved instead of, yknow, making life easier for every character RS prefers thus diminishing any possible deeper conflict that'd make some actual plot or character progression. Even tho it is a made up futuristic scenery, it blends well with sentimental traditions shown though clothing and rituals and such, so there is a good lore explanation for the mixing of the old and new (where LO is all over the place so it ends up in cherrypicking whichever gets the stans to squeal more).

No, i will not elaborate on the plot bc everything is a spoiler. First season is only 40 episodes yet tells miles and miles more than LO's entire run so far

It also has neurodivergent and disability representation done well, at least in my opinion

It has gorgeous art too (i'm actually gonna go and say it's the most unique and beutiful artstyle i've seen on webtoons). It also utilises music made specificaly for the episode (just like for purple hyacinthus) and even gifs so it is quite a unique experience

The biggest joke? This comic updates on sundays as well🙃

(This is, again, by no means a comparison of these titles, as they are completely different from each other, but it is staggering how some themes are way too similar, but painted differently and send different messages. Anyway, please check out the shadow prophet, the author is gonna be back with season 2 soon)

2. I feel like LO has a bit of HP energy to it, and by that I mean people in power praise it as some groundbreaking work, when really you pick it apart and see its a mean spirited, uninspired story that happily conforms to every regressive status quo bias (gender roles, classism, racism, misogyny, etc) under a cheap veneer of liberal "feminism", and that is why it's marketed as something It's not. It can pretend it's progressive under a female MC + creator while it challenges absolutely nothing.

3. Persephone's AOW wasn't just poorly planned/executed, it's also that RS is too scared to let her darling be "problematic", leading to what seems to have been at least three retcons to it because of a small but loud section of fans being disappointed. A confident writer not only would had seek out help from their editor to plan this out, but they also wouldn't buckle under minor bad faith criticism to flip flop so easily on their own story. It makes it clear she's just making it up as she goes.

4. What’s wild to me is RS created fantasy racism in this story yet seems to have zero awareness that she’s framed the race who is discriminated against (the nymphs specifically) as the bad guys who “deserve” their mistreatment because they’re bad no matter what and they’re in the wrong for daring to stand up to their oppressors. We don’t see any male nymphs or this discrimination play out against satyrs either, so it’s hatred that’s both racist AND misogynistic. Like what the fuck?

5. The retcon of the AOW is also Rachel admitting she doesn't want Persephone (a literal Greek goddess and Dread Queen) cannot be anything but an already perfect, heroic person, which not only makes her an uninteresting character, it makes an uninteresting story. What is there for her to learn from? To grow? To overcome? She's by design supposed to only be static, which is a huge problem considering she's supposed to be the lead character and is supposed to be "growing up".

6. I'm kinda confused by the trial because the punishment is kinda how the myth's ending would go with the half year separation (except now it's a set amount of years that zeus will eventual forgive), but it's not that's not the myth because apparently now the myth is supposed to start (four years in? thats not good writing) so how would the half year punishment even happen then? persephone kills more people with winter and they go on trial AGAIN? like none of this seems planned out at all.

7. this isn't even just about RS but I just hate how many of the WT creators are white women who pretend to care about diversity and yet when they show their cast of some new comic theyre making or some OC they thought up it's just the same brand of skinny white people (bonus if the antagonist is the only one who just happens to be darker skinned). like put your money where your mouth is and give us an ounce of body fat and melanin, i'm begging 😭

8. Just wait till Rachel Smythe and other creator’s of this retelling, realize that the Abduction of Persephone mainly focuses on Persephone and Demeter, not Persephone and Hades. Idk why, but I find that a bit contradicting to Rachel’s “basic knowledge of Greek mythology” statement 😭🤷‍♀️

You’re basically developing an unimportant character in the myth when you should be developing Demeter and Persephone, plus their relationship. Hades is there just to set the plan forward; he has no other need in that myth but to explain the seasons and keep Persephone as his queen. 

9. Yeah actually I don't think we talk enough about how Hera had her own son see photos of a woman in the most terrifying position of her life. I know it was to like, get rid of them but Persephone didn't know who Hephestus was and she still doesn't know how Hera handled it afaik, which again, takes away a lot of her agency because she's only gotten to tell 1 person on her own volition about what happened, everyone else either assumes, finds out through prodding even when she's uncomfortable, or uses their powers. It's just weird that it's very brushed over that Hephestus has seen what Apollo did with his own eyes  because he'd have to see them to get rid of them. 

10. there's some LO fans who are just desperate to make it deeper than it is and how it "deals with serious topics" which like one) no it doesnt but two) you guys can enjoy a shallow romance comic, no one cares. a lot of us like shallow stuff for mindless entertainment. trying to make it deeper than it is only opens it up to bigger scrutiny when it doesnt meet even the bare minimum, and only puts more pressure on RS to work outside her comfort zone to where we end up w/ this degraded mess it is now.

[heyovivi]

Gwyn and Azriel and Prejudice

Hello, back again with some possible theories and this time it's about one of my favorite Valkyries, Miss Gwyneth Berdara and some more controversial subjects such as the prejudice that surrounds her and other characters.

Now I'm sorry I haven't been posting a lot--though I'm sure not people even notice seeing how we have a large community of readers who also come up with some amazing theories! But I needed to slow down on posting my wild theories and imaginations because I felt that some of my readers who read my fan fiction were starting to catch onto the plot of "A Court of Shadows and Scars"--but I've been waiting to post about this one because I think it's important and because I've already addressed it in my story.

Moving on.

Gwyneth Berdara.

Although she was very much a newly-introduced secondary character to Nesta's story she is oh-so important and beloved by our reading community. Gwyn has stolen the hearts of many with her wit, charm, and inquisitive personality--and not just readers but her fellow characters as well.

All except a very few including Merrill and the main antagonist of ACOSF, Queen Briallyn--though there are many others I could mention, such as the Illyrians, but my main focus will revolve around Merrill and Briallyn and their prejudices against Gwyn along with other characters with their own prejudices such as Beron and even our own brooding shadowsinger, Azriel.

Yes, Azriel.

Now we know the story of Gwyn and we also a know a bit of her past as well.

Gwyn's grandmother was once a river nymph who seduced a High Fae male hailing from the Autumn Court and fell pregnant with Gwyn's mother who was sent to be raised at the temple of Sangravah because she couldn't dwell in the rivers of Spring Court and was too wild to be confined in the Forest House of Autumn Court.

"My mother was unwanted by either of their (Gwyn's grandmother and grandfather) people. She could not dwell in the rivers of the Spring Court, but was too untamed to endure the confinement of the forest house of Autumn. So she was give in her childhood to the temple at Sangravah, where she was raised..." (Gwyn Berdara, A Court of Silver Flames, pg. 316)

Now what we know about nymphs is extremely limited in the ACOTAR world. But in Greek mythology--from which they hail from--nymphs were idolized as guardians of nature. They were revered as the spirits of specific natural features and were often identified with parts of nature such as the Oreads (mountain nymphs) and the Hamadryads (tree nymphs).

The name "nymph" comes from the Greek word that means "young woman", and so naturally these beings were considered to be female. Indeed, they were represented as young, beautiful, musical, amorous, and gentle youthful creatures. And while there is some question about whether they were immortal or not - Hamadryads in particular were linked with the lives of their chosen trees - it is believed that they were extremely long lived.

A beautiful, ever-young creature that inhabits the lovliest of all wilderness places including clear lakes, streams, and crystalline caverns. They do not like any form of intrusion but there is a 100% that a nymph will be friendly if approached by another good creature. Nymphs are exceptionally intelligent and are very rarely found.

Gwyn's lineage of nymph, according to Greek mythology, would be categorized as a Naiad, the nymphs of streams, rivers, and lakes. The Naiads, or water nymphs, dwelt beside running water. Like their cousins, the Nereids and Oceanids of the oceans, the Oreads of the hills and the Dryads of the forests and trees, they were usually sweet, benign spirits. Naiads, especially, were helpful and healing, nurturing fruits, flowers and mortals. Yet the youth Hylas who went to draw water from a pool was lured by the nymphs into the water and was never seen again--meaning that despite being creatures of nature they also possessed darker roles in certain legends.

I interpret this as Nymphs being hostile around creatures who were unwelcome in their lands for being ill-intentioned.

Many times in Greek mythology, nymphs were often seen as the symbolism of beauty and love; such as Aphrodite--and because they were always describe to be beautiful and graceful women with soft, sweet appearances they often drew the attention of the Gods creating legends of romantic affairs and infidelity.

Their very beauty caused the Gods to lust after them to a ravenous extent, making the Nymphs sometimes turn to the Goddesses for help. However, not all Goddesses were kind towards the nymphs--such as Aphrodite or Hera who grew jealous of their beauty when their very beauty and natural loveliness challenged the fidelity of their lovers.

In this case, let's assume that role of Gods, of higher beings, were the High Fae in the ACOTAR realm.

In the ACOTAR realm, it's easy to assume the nymphs are somewhat--if not--wholly the same as they are described in classic literature. When Gwyn tells the story of her grandmother she states that her grandmother seduced a High Fae, resulting in the birth of her mother. If this is the case then I think I can understand why characters such as Merrill and Briallyn look down on her lineage so much because again, Nymphs, in the eyes of major Goddesses such as Aphrodite and Hera, were essentially home wreckers (even though many confrontations with Gods and Nymphs were not always consensual).

With the reputation of being male-thirsty seductresses, nymphs are looked down upon as lower-beings, that and their lack of immortality (more often then not Nymphs linked their lifelines to an object in nature: a tree nymphs links their life to a tree, water nymph links their life to a stream (but I suppose that makes them immortal?)).

With this devious reputation placed on her lineage, Gwyn is often the butt of insults with being call half-breed and all by the likes of Briallyn and Merrill.

"But you made it easy for me: you went right to her house in Windhaven. Spared me the trouble of luring you. I let those witless Illyrians take her and the half-breed as an amusing bonus." (Queen Briallyn, A Court of Silver Flames, pg. 721)

"I am descended from Rabath, Lord of the Western Wind...Unlike Gwyneth Berdara, I am not lackey to be dismissed." (Merrill, A Court of Silver Flames, pg. 315)

Merrill glanced between her and Gwyn before saying, "get back to your work, nymph." (Merrill, A Court of Silver Flames, pg. 315)

Okay--so Merrill doesn't specifically call her a half-breed, but dismissing her as a lower race and simply calling her "nymph" is basically comparable to an insult.

Now, that we've got Gwyn out of the way, let's move onto Autumn Court, more specifically Beron.

Beron is an ass--plain and simple. He is the personification of a conservative abuser and is honestly one of the most disgusting characters I have ever had the displeasure of reading. However--I suppose the problems he brings do push certain character formulas forward such as Eris and Lucien. Such as executing Jesminda for simply being involved with Lucien and for being anything but High Fae.

"Lucien fell in love with a faerie whom his father considers to be grossly inappropriate for someone of his bloodline. Lucien said he didn't care that wasn't one of the High Fae, that he was certain the mating bond would snap into place soon and that he was going to marry her and leave his father's court to his scheming brothers...His father had her put down. Executed, in front of Lucien, as his two eldest brothers held him and made him watch." (Tamlin, A Court of Thorns and Roses, pg. 160)

I don't think I need to go ahead and explain Beron and his prejudices against those who are not High Fae--his actions speak enough as is. But what I do want to do is go back to the specific wording Gwyn uses when explaining how her mother ended up in Sangravah, she says: "She could not dwell in the rivers of the Spring Court, but was too untamed to endure the confinement of the forest house of Autumn."

Confinement.

Not dwell. Not live. Not prosper. Confinement.

Now, we haven't navigated Autumn for all it's beauty and culture. We've only seen the Autumn Court through the eyes of Feyre when she is traversing through the courts in ACOWAR.

But I wonder how he approached with dealing with those who are not High Fae? What if the Autumn Court is much like the Summer Court where the court works around a system of class where High Fae are put at the top and anything but is put at the bottom? Therefore assuming that the treatment of such beings is cruel and unjust, creating a defining line between the races in which they can never reach equilibrium.

If that is so that brings me to the idea that many courts outside the jurisdiction of Night Court have assumed systems such as this, making there a limited amount of options for people like Gwyn's mother to prosper peacefully. Because we already know that the main reason why the first war with Hybern happened was because Hybern demanded to keep human and low fae as slaves, placing High Fae at the top. Spring sided with Hybern, because remember Amarantha and the former High Lord of Spring were close friends, Summer Court most likely fought to keep slaves as they still continuously oppress lesser fae, so I imagine it was worse for humans. And let's be honest, Autumn remained "indifferent" but one look at their current High Lord tells me that they weren't that indifferent--not unless Beron wasn't the ruling High Lord at the time.

So with that in mind, Gwyn and her family couldn't flee to Summer, nor Spring or Autumn. Night was probably never an option--as their reputation of being dark and gloomy more than likely frightened the idea away. Winter Court was obvious seeing how it's a winter wonderland of frozen lakes, streams, and rivers. Then there is Day Court which based on their current High Lord and aesthetic, is a desert land of sand and heat--with little to no water supply for any Nymph.

However there is one court that still remains. Dawn Court. From what we know they are a more than neutral court among the courts of Prythian and mostly value innovation. Geographically, Dawn is a lush, eternal countryside rich with the weight of summer upon it. The towns were red-roofed villages with sparkling rivers--a perfect destination for any relocating half-nymph- half-High Fae born child. However we also have to take into account the time period of when Gwyn's mother was born. Remember, prior to ACOTAR, Prythian was under the rule of Amarantha for fifty years--and even if that wasn't the case Summer was under the rule of a High Lord who didn't harbor the same compassion to change the unequal class system like Tarquin did when he assumed his place on the throne. Autumn was being ruled by Beron by that time already who'd probably have her confined. And Spring was under the traditional rule of Tamlin--and despite that Gwyn's mother would've still be considered as unwelcomed by the other nymphs.

If you take the time and current dilemma of Prythian--then there was really no where to go but Sangravah--putting into question the prejudices certain courts have against beings that are of the Low Fae variety.

I predict that despite being beautiful, charming, and compassionate, Gwyn still faces so much prejudice for simply being 1/4th nymph--which to the High Fae is a stain in her lineage to be a descendant from such a deviant being.

Now, let's move onto Azriel.

Azriel, as we all know, has his own conflicts with the Illyrians. Of course, that is to be expected, especially after learning of his backstory with being abused by his family and then later forced into training with the Illyrian army. The only comfort he had ever received was from the likes of his chosen family and so I believe he is projecting his own, personal experience of being an Illyrian into his hatred of Illyria--seeing the Illyrians as no more than a means to end due to their constant reluctance to move on with the times.

Don't get me wrong, I love Azriel. But I think a big part of his character is accepting who he is. He is an Illyrian--and I believe that with the combine power of him, Cassian, and Rhys they can bring the kind of change that Cassian had only ever dreamed of to Illyria. Yet, his own prejudices against his people hold him back and that's probably because he hasn't fully faced his trauma and instead skitters back at the mention or thought of it. I think if Az was healed he wouldn't be so reluctant to visit Illyria or wish for it's demise.

"A rare visit from the shadowsinger. Both myth and terror. Az looked just as displeased to be here, but he'd come when I asked...It was healthy, perhaps. For Az to sometimes remember where he'd come from. He still wore the Illyrian leathers. Had not tried to get the tattoos removed. Some part of him was Illyrian still. Always would be. Even if he wished to forget." (Rhysand, A Court of Frost and Starlight, pg. 222)

"Cassian rolled his eyes. But they both knew Azriel would sooner disband and destroy Illyria than help it. Convincing their brother than the Illyrians were a people worth saving was still a battle amongst the three of them." (Cassian, A Court of Silver Flames, pg. 42)

Now, moving onto the conclusion, finally. If Gwynriel's story was to happen, I think there is a sufficient amount of evidence to claim that Azriel's plot would revolve around the Illyrian conflict.

I'm just going to drop down this link: https://yazthebookish.tumblr.com/post/648449405425516544/the-illyrian-conflict-being-set-up-in-acosf-along

@yazthebookish highlights textual evidence that hints at a possible story arc for an Illyrian plot line because yes, there is still so much to uncover in Illyria and although I believe a large part of that was suppose to be Cassian and Nesta's story I also understand why it could go to Azriel.

Azriel needs to learn to accept his race, and the Illyrians need to learn how to accept change. I think they can learn something from one another and I believe Gwyn will play a role in Azriel's adventure. Do I think she's going to be the face some enlightenment in Azriel's journey--no. That's stupid. And if you twist my words, read it again. I believe because of Gwyn's past with prejudice against her and what she is, she can level with Az and understand him in a way that can potentially help him develop better as a character. Yes, she might be there for guidance or to give Azriel counsel, but in the end I think it's Az's job to tackle down the Illyrian conflict while Gwyn, with the help of Azriel, tackles down her own, whether that be discovering her lineage or where she came from or even healing from her trauma as a SA victim.

Please be respectful and leave your thoughts in the comments.

[jungleslang]

I'm sorry, but I cannot understand people who say that Elriel shippers hate Lucien and want to cause him pain or are advocating for him to experience pain and ultimately be unhappy. I understand that the mating bond is a huge deal in fae culture, and that it's more difficult to deal with for the male than for the female. But shipping Elain with Azriel despite this does NOT mean that I hate him. The opposite is actually true. It literally makes zero sense.

I've seen this argument too many times throughout the years, and I saw it again today, so I've decided to address it. I'm going to discuss why Elriel doesn't equal Lucien being unhappy, as well as some Elriel and Vucien foreshadowing, and why this could lead to Lucien's happiness. Be aware that I'm obviously biased, and this is in no way meant to hate on Elucien or Elucien shippers. I'm just addressing this specific argument. All ships are valid, and we don't ship shame in this house. This is just my personal opinion, and I know that what I ship might not be endgame.

Also this is gonna be pretty long, don't say I didn't warn you.

I want to start off by saying that a big reason why I don't ship Elucien is honestly BECAUSE I love Lucien. Elain has consistently shown not even an ounce of interest in him for the past three books. Lucien himself also says that Elain was "thrown at him," while Jesminda, his past love, chose him. Elain has never used or shown her appreciation for any of the gifts Lucien gave her (which is her right). She has clearly stated that she does not want a mate. She also currently has feelings for Azriel, and it's been said that Elain "shrinks" in Lucien's presence, her newfound boldness suddenly gone. I'm sorry, but why would I want this for Lucien?? Why would I want Lucien to be with a woman who does not love him and currently has feelings for another male? A woman who literally shrivels up when he is near her? Lucien deserves to love and be loved wholeheartedly. And of course, Elain does, too.

Additionally, Lucien's words about Jesminda highlight that having a choice and being truly chosen are things that matter to him. And who are the people that Lucien has actively chosen to be with? Jurian and Vassa. Lucien is a centuries old fae male, with experience in multiple courts, and he's chosen to shack up with two humans in the human lands. That means something, and it shows that Vassa and Jurian are the people he feels comfortable with, the people he trusts, and most importantly, the people who make him feel wanted. Wanted enough to literally live with them after all of his trauma, after being barred from his home in the Spring Court by Tamlin, a person he loved cherished more than anyone else. And Jurian and Vassa have also chosen him.

As someone who absolutely loves Lucien, THIS is what I want for him. For him to be with people he chose and who in turn chose him. I want what's best for him, and so far, the text has indicated that Jurian and Vassa are what's best for him. I mean come on, the three of them literally created a name for themselves, the Band Of Exiles. The one time we saw Lucien actually laugh in ACOWAR was when he was with Vassa at the end. He blushes at the mention of her and has a "spark" in his eyes when he talks about her. Let's also not forget about this part in ACOFAS:

Lucien says that he's not living with them, the manor belongs to all of them. And even Feyre remarks how he's more comfortable around them, two humans, than people of his own race. I feel like this part is so overlooked. To me, it really demonstrates that Lucien has indeed found a home with these people, a home that belongs to all of them, and that he feels he truly does belong with them.

Additionally, it bothers me when people imply that rejecting the mating bond automatically equals unhappiness while accepting it guarantees love and happiness. Elain and Lucien rejecting their mating bond does not mean that Lucien is doomed to be unhappy and in pain for the rest of his life. And accepting it does not mean they'll be happy, either. We literally have proof of this in the books, and it comes in the form of Rhysand's parents. Rhys says that his parents were wrong for each other, and that his mother eventually came to hate his father, only staying with him because she was grateful to him for saving her wings. That is not a happy relationship.

Also, something that is one of the biggest hints toward Elriel for me, is the fact that every single mated couple we see in the books that actually ended up together had feelings for each other BEFORE the mating bond snapped into place. Rhys had feelings for Feyre while they were under the mountain, and Feyre fell in love with Rhys before she knew they were mates. Nessian's mating bond also didn't snap into place until after they already loved each other. And we also have Kallias and Viviane, who were in love before they discovered they were mates. These relationships all had solid foundations before the mate bond came came into play. Romantic feelings were established before the bond. For Elucien, this was not the case. Their mate bond snapped into the place the day they met each other, which directly mirrors Rhys' parents, whose mate bond snapped into place the moment they met and who also weren't right for each other. (Coincidence? I think not.)

We also have to remember that we have never been inside Lucien's head, with the exception of that one scene where Feyre infiltrates his mind while he's talking to Elain. That one glimpse alone mainly deals with the feelings he has for Elain due to his instincts because of the mate bond. It's also where he says Elain had been thrown at him. We don't actually know the extent of what he feels or doesn't feel for Elain. We don't know if he has romantic feelings for her outside of his instincts because of the bond, which we know is important based on what we discussed above. Yes, Lucien gives her gifts and clearly wants to get to know her, but we don't know whether he's just doing this out of obligation because the bond is so important in fae culture. Which might also be the reason Elain hasn't formally rejected him yet.

I think that there is a decent chance that this is the case based on what we've seen in the books. I also get the feeling that Lucien might be pursuing Elain out of obligation because Elain hasn't given him the time of day, and they've had no meaningful moments/conversations up until now. He doesn't really know her. How can you have feelings for someone you don't know and haven't spent any real time with? There are also these scenes from ACOFAS and ACOSF:

In ACOFAS, Feyre says that Lucien doesn't seem to have a real interest in bridging gap between him and Elain. In ACOSF, Cassian says the words "my mate" drip with discomfort when Lucien says them. This indicates that he's not so comfortable with calling Elain his mate / having her as his mate.

I also think this part is important because the level of comfort the characters have with each other is a distinguishing factor of the ships. Lucien is more comfortable around Vassa than Elain, while Elain is more comfortable around Azriel than Lucien.

As I stated before, this is the only time we see Lucien laughing in ACOWAR. Additionally, his shoulders are loose, indicating that he is not only comfortable but also relaxed, which is a rare thing for Lucien in the recent books with all the shit he has going on. In contrast, there's always a tension underlying his and Elain's interactions. Based on the fact that Vassa is chatting with him "animatedly," I would say she's likely comfortable around him, too.

There are also these two passages from ACOMAF, which I'm sure every Elriel shipper already knows lol.

We can also see that Elain has been at least somewhat comfortable around Azriel from the start, even when she was afraid of the fae and engaged to a fae-hating man. She even engaged him in a genuine conversation about flying. These two excerpts also show that Elain is somewhat attuned to Azriel as well. She notes his body language and uses it to gauge the situation. This also indicates a certain level of trust in him. And this has only increased as the story progressed. He's content to just sit beside her in the garden, she tells him about her plans for the garden, and they stay up late talking to each other. Their interactions signify how at ease they are with each other, which I think is big thing for Azriel, who's always described as cold and filled with an icy rage. Rhys says it took Mor centuries to get Az to loosen up, but he eased up around Elain in a remarkably short amount of time for someone usually so closed-off.

So, the conclusion here is that Elucien is not the only ship that guarantees all characters' happiness as some people say. Lucien is completely capable of being happy and finding a home without Elain accepting the bond, and the evidence is in the books. The fact that Lucien actively chooses to live together with Jurian and Vassa, and that Elain has constantly chosen to be around Az while showing no interest in Lucien is the reason while I will always stan Vucien and Elriel over Elucien. It's all about choice for me, which is something that's also emphasized in the books and seems to be important for both Elain's and Lucien's arcs.

And all Elriel shippers absolutely don't hate Lucien. If I'm being honest, I actually like Lucien as a character more than Azriel. While I am a diehard Elriel stan and I adore Az, Lucien is a more interesting character to me. He was raised in the Autumn Court, lived in the Spring Court, and ended up becoming part of the Night Court, as well. Then we find out he's the heir to the Day Court, and now he lives in the human lands with Jurian and Vassa. He has connections to so many places, and yet struggles to belong. He was lost, and found a home with two other lost people. The Lost Queen Vassa, and a human who was resurrected in a world that moved on without him.

This is also why, in my opinion, Vucien / The Band of Exiles has so much more potential than Elucien. I don't want another story about mates ending up with each other. Give me the found family trope that is the Band of Exiles.

If you've made it through this whole thing, thank you. As always, I'd love to hear your opinions!

[lananiscorner]

If you had to guess, why are Edelstans so desperate in trying to defend their waifu's honor despite her being a fictional character and therefore won't respond let alone appreciate their defense? I know parasocial relationships are one hell of a drug but you'd think they would stop trying to double down and fulfill a self fulfilling prophecy of thinking they are racists who justify imperialism and genocide.

Thanks for your ask, anon. Please keep in mind that everything below the cut is just my own personal interpretation of what's happening here, based on my time in this fandom. There's a fair chance I might be wrong about the conclusions I'm drawing, but anyway, here's my 2 cents:

I think the parasocial relationship aspect is definitely a big part of it, but at least as far as the western parts of her stan base are concerned, it also feels a lot like there's a lot of personal baggage attached. I mean, from what I have seen in my year in this fandom so far:

Most Edel/Byleth art/fic involves female Byleth. Male Byleth might as well not exist, even though picking male Byleth rather than female Byleth changes absolutely nothing about their support line or ending and I'm not even sure if it changes any of their explore/event dialogue, but I don't recall any instance where it did during my playthroughs.

Her other supports and paired endings with male characters exist in-game only, apparently. I've seen maybe like... 5 pieces of Edel/Hubert art in the fe3h tag over the course of this year and that's it.

Stanning for Edel usually is accompanied by relentless bashing of Rhea and the church.

"She's sapphic and cute and she wants to hold your hand while obliterating the oppressive church--what's not to love?" is how I've seen multiple of her stans describe their reasons for liking her in a nutshell.

One of the common claims from Edel stans against her critics is that we are homophobic, hating on her for being wlw... which... the only time I ever see Edel's sexuality brought up in Edel critic circles, is annoyance at stans trying to erase her canonical bisexuality.

Some of the animosity against the church is definitely a problem of the localization (which actively made Rhea and the church look more sus in several instances), but a lot of it to me reads like it was written by people who were hurt in RL by assholes who wield religion as an oppressive tool (which it doesn't have to be--affirming churches do exist!), and for whom Edel with all her church smashing and queerness is just the ultimate, cathartic, projecting power fantasy.

And here's the problem with projecting: when you project onto another person or a character, any attack on them feels like an attack on you, personally. It's the fallacy of "they called Edel a racist imperialist + I stan Edel for being an anti-religion queer queen = they called me a racist imperialist = they called me a sinner = they are just like the people who hate me for being queer and having beef with religion", which... is not a great feeling. I've been there myself (not with Edel, but with other characters in other franchises) and learning how to take a step back from that line of thinking and looking at what people are actually saying rather than what you are hearing is one of the most important life skills you can learn in any context. I don't think I've ever seen any Edel critic call her stans racist/imperialist for liking her, but rather for trying to justify her actions, which... yeah, if you're trying to justify racism/imperialism, that is bound to happen. You can like (even love) a character without trying to rationalize away their flaws.

Two examples: Hubert is the best character on CF imo, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna go around saying "well actually he had no choice but to kill and bribe people behind Edelgard's back and they were trying to uphold an abusive system so they probably deserved it anyway". Man straight up bribed and murdered people so his queen could succeed--cool motive, flawless execution, still murder. Likewise, Felix is my second-favorite character in all of Azure Moon, but there'll be a cold day in Aillel before you see me trying to excuse his misoginy or his dehumanizing language towards Dimitri and Dedue. I understand and sympathize with the cause for his behavior, but I do not condone it or try to justify it away as something necessary or good.

And sadly, I don't think this fallacy thinking of some (most?) of Edel's stans will change, unless:

the RL people making the arguments change, and/or

their RL experiences change, and/or

IntSys gives us some unproblematic, unapologetically gay/lesbian representation.

It is hard to self-reflect when you are hurting and clinging to what litle representation you can find. In an ideal world, the next original FE game release would include unmistakably queer characters of multiple orientations, who are not also racist imperialists, so every Edel stan who gets really reactionary about criticism of her can look and those and go "oh hey, people don't hate on me for stanning Sappho FE--maybe the beef they had with me really wasn't about me being a sinner, but Edel being someone who invaded and forcibly annexed two sovereign nations and did her best to eradicate an entire race of sentient beings".

Maybe that day will come. Maybe it won't. In the meantime, I will happily keep blocking those of her stans, who try to justify racism, imperialism, and ableism, so that I can have a pleasant fandom experience that won't leave me bitter and exhausted every time I check the tags.