#also did you know terms like traumagenic and endogenic were made by an endogenic/endo supporter

[lamp-shading]

idrc what your personal stances on plurality is as long as youre respectful and not hateful/harassing others but you cant go on saying some shit abt this towards endogenic and mixed origin systems. Like you really cant claim youre all for mental health advocacy and call people "schizos" for having experiences you dont agree with (even though theres definite proof of their existances being real. look into astraea's web and lived experiences of non disordered plurals in early 2000's spaces i beg of you this isnt a new concept.)

Also before yall get on my ass yes I know in aspen's description they say theyre schizophrenic but by calling others schizo in a derogatory and insulting way you are being so fucking ableist. Just cus you are schizospec doesnt mean you can throw around these fucking words towards others. I hate involving in syscourse but theres no way in HELL you should be getting away with this.

again, idrc what your stances are as long as youre being respectful, anyone can interact with this post but just know that if you say this ableist shit (calling endogenics schizo, delusional, etc) to justify your stances, congratulations, you fucking suck!

[anti-endo-safe-space]

These two posts piss us the fuck off so r a n t i n g y a y

https://www.tumblr.com/thegentlewonders/745509012285554688/reasons-endogenic-systems-make-endogenic-safe?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/heiiocoie/745318501866143745/anti-endo-safe-space-why-do-you-need-a-safe?source=share

[Posts in case people can't access them:

Post 1:

Reasons endogenic systems make endogenic safe spaces: Discrimination from not only singlets who refuse to understand, but also traumagenic systems who choose to discriminate against their fellow systems. There are also hate are groups being formed just for endogenic systems existing and getting doxxed for the same reasons, despite science backing up endogenic systems.

Reasons anti endos make anti endo safe spaces: th-the big bad endo called me mean...... :'(

Post 2:

”anti-endo-safe-space” why do you need a safe space. NOBODY is hating on you. “i was a-a-accused of being mean to people 😣😣😣” you tag every post with hatred]]

Oh, why do we need a safe space? Maybe because endos and endo supporters have gone out of their way to harass and attack anti-endos for believing in science? calling us "sysmeds" (YOU CAN'T MEDICALIZE A MEDICAL DISORDER) and "traumascum" (ONCE AGAIN, YOU CAN'T MEDICALIZE A MEDICAL DISORDER [it's an alternate term for sysmeds]), they attack people who say stuff like "i don't want any endos interacting because we have trauma related to endos" and they claim that every anti-endo thinks all pro-endos are faking (which like 90% of people do not) and also what science??? the carrds and reentries y'all link??? or that one 13 page paper that literally just says that the field is underresearched???? and let's not forget the things they say when anti-endos pull out sources. It's all "that's not true because [blank]!" and "well [blank] says differntly and they're DIAGNOSED so" and other bullshit. or they just ignore it completely.

And please, raise your hand if you want a safe space solely because endos called you mean. I've seen systems who want them because they have trauma relating to endos/pro endos, I've seen systems who want them because they don't want to be attacked for their beliefs, we personally want them because the amount of misinformation in the community is off the charts and has made us believe that we were faking all of our trauma (tied into the radqueer community a little bit but radqueers and endos are not inherently linked so yea) and that we were endogenic!!!

"nobody is hating on you" YOU ARE LITERALLY HATING SAYING THAT??? BRUH??? Not to mention the reblogs that said "me. i'm hating on them" and the fucking harassment!! like thanks anon, i really wanted to be told i'm lucky for being trafficked! i really needed that!! thanks a lot!! "you tag every post with hatred" ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ANTI ENDO? FUCK ENDOS? ENDOS DNI? The fuck endos is true yea but y'all say the exact same shit about anti endos so don't even pretend.

just. endos piss me the fuck off. let us have our safe spaces.

Hey anon, we're gonna send a bit of a longer one to what you said because we 100000% agree especially because we've seen BOTH of those posts

Exactly. They've taken over any system space and if they're not included then your abelist meanwhile they claim to NOT have a disorder??? Pick a lane?? We created this because we literally have alters that split off because of endos and the harassment they've given, one's who's literal job it is to handle the harassment they can give. Look we know a system who's diagnosed but they say that not all trauma is valid, does that make them right? No because trauma is trauma, diagnosis doesn't mean they know everything

Exactly, we have this because they've given us trauma and honestly, they suck. They mock our disorder (Cheesegenic anyone?) and we're the villains for getting upset. Like no you did not have an alter split because you were eating cheese. That's not how it works damnit. We are so sorry you had them and they-who-shall-not-be-named (we don't want them coming after this blog because we don't tolerate them either, we've already had a few before) convince you that you guys were endo, we get that struggle

Yeah, they like to claim their the, and I quote from an actual endo thing (we dunno if it's from an ask or a post or what, we just woke up a bit ago) "poor oppressed people" and actual systems are lucky for their trauma because then they're taken seriously. We get that anger, we've had a pro-endo tell us we're lucky we were abused for years despite the fact we just mentioned we had PTSD.

Yeah we literally have fuck endo as a tag here because we had an endo come in here and tell us to kill ourselves so, we don't exactly listen to them, you know?

We agree whole heartedly. It's why we don't let them here, you've got a safe space here

[rin-and-jade]

This question touches upon the notion of “traumagenic” and “endogenic”; as well as The Theory of Structural Dissociation. The Theory of Structural Dissociation seemingly supports endogenics as it states that there are “natural born” systems. They would be “endogenic” because they're not born from trauma, (as those who are “traumagenic” are).

I recently had a discussion with someone in a yt comment section about those two terms and they pointed me to you, so I just want to see what you think.

I believe in endogenic systems; because why would a book (the DSM) made by those who don't even experience plurality determine whether something exists or not? And as systems, those who are heavily categorized and misunderstood or looked down upon because they don't fit the singlet category, I feel as though we should embrace different forms of neurodiversity.

My questions are: what is the real line between "traumagenic" and "endogenic"? Are systems who were born as a system and weren't exasperated by trauma (like an endo) any less valid or real than those who were exasperated by trauma (traumagenic)? Or because of that theory, if that's how all systems work, aren't all systems "endogenic"?

Before reading: Long post. This purpose is to discuss and look at things in another pov, not intended to debate current beliefs/opinions. TLDR Provided. Last notes at bottom.

To clarify first, im in a neutral stance between the endo and traumagenic community as i focus more on the better of living for any kinds of plural people. Your question did seemed interesting and i had ever discussed this by myself on free time, so i do got some answers for you!

The line between these two are its origin and functionality, to put it in my opinion. The unique thing about plurality is that, i can totally see it being possible that it can exist outside of trauma.

Well, let me explain it to you like this:

An intact personality is where multiple facets are cohesive, and these facets that gives you that said personality is your identity. It's how you see yourself, and act like who you know. Basically, it's how you can act differently in different situations be it at school, at home, at somewhere else etc.

The thing about where personality is located in our brain has been a complex topic for scientists, if i remember correctly, there wasn't a specific spot for it as our brain has multiple areas with different functionality, and these regions cooperating creates a tangible output like how you react, or your typical behaviors.

I kept finding singlets discussing things that looks like really mild system things, and especially from this one youtube video (im so sorry i couldn't provide the link, it has been months ago i had watched but it discussing this too by a doctor or something. lmk if i have to find it again) quotes that the brain fools us into thinking theres only one 'kind' of us, not by it's exact words but close. These people can have different levels in terms of sense of personality unity btw, so not all singlets are the same either.

Now the origin and functionality for a traumagenic is different, because these states are being separated, and compartmentalized due to trauma. The presence of amnesia blocks the other side's of selves sometimes to severe degrees, now acting independently. There is also proof that the grey matter and the communication between regions are different, compared to a healthy brain (i can find the links for this too if needed). Well, you could read more about DID if needed.

So no, neither are less valid, but that doesn't mean both works the same or have the same processes either. Which means, not all systems are endogenic by origins.

Lastly, this is from what i had learnt and connect the dots over many sources i had read to ensure a wide perspective, nuanced understandings in topics. I am fully aware if some of you seem to disagree or see my views as wrong,, we have our own pov's ofcourse. i don't want to fight about validating my pov alright? Im also open to feedback/extra questions, im as well aware of the existence of fake/bad endos and do not support them.

TLDR: There are real life experiences and proof that supports the idea of being plural in mild/different ways, or ways that are different to traumagenics due to the complexity of the brain. Neither are the same in terms of how it functions and where it came from. Neither are also less valid.

- j

[pluralismajestatis]

mixed origins system here. while technically mostly traumagenic, the endogenic portion made themselves known first.

endogenic and mixed origins systems have their system related struggles, but also have an enduring pattern of being non- disordered in studies of populations experiencing multiplicity in case studies dating back to when it was still called MPD. while exceptions do exist, i'm bringing this up because it's often the case that an endogenic system's often lower level of system related difficulty leads to quicker discovery once informed of what systems actually are. not always smoother, as they are often attacked and dissuaded from selves discovery by anti- endos... as we were.

ok. so now, for our story. it's far from pretty.

it actually starts with a traumagenic DID system in an online group for people interested in psychology. our old host (long story) had a special interest in psychology at the time, and one of the first people they met- a new mod- was the host of a DID system.

our host vehemently rejected the idea that they could have DID or OSDD from day one, out of flat denial of their symptoms, but they definitely expressed plurality, even though it took them time to accept the possibility of the donut eating scientist that had often seemed much like a spirit existing side by side with them for the years he had accompanied them for; being a real, living being. they found themself saying to themself "i don't have DID (or OSDD), but..."

these many times saying this to themself but usually not announcing it to the system in the chat out of nothing but respect finally started to become suspicious to them. they also generally kept their head down, trying not to ask too many questions and instead self informing via the system's pinned wiki entries and general observance. at last, still fairly certain they didn't experience DID or OSDD but suspicious that they might be experiencong a system outside of, that they asked: "without using the terms DID or OSDD, what is a system???" and they got a solid, helpful answer. "a system is multiple people in one body".

that officially started their questioning.

the rest took place over months of denial sprung from trying to find their footing on the whole thing and being met with anti- endo rhetoric that pushed them into denial of any systemlike experiences they had. it was unhealthy, it made the system of the time unhappy, and it eventually compounded into irreparable damage to the old host themself and damage to many of our members, the full effects of which we seldom disclose. in short terms, we're lucky that we broke the denial haze when we did if only because it prevented further damage

when people actually told us that we can exist and that we are real people, our years prior and the past, desparate months of trying to make them see us as real via internap communication and trying to do things that would seem uncanny enough for them to investegate, even when they had downright rejected the possibility in favor of being palatable to anti- endos, finally worked.

we always wanted to be known and understood as real, and made strenuous efforts to be seen as such. it wasn't until they had an explaination that they seemed to fully acknowledge we were.

Hey, awesome, this is the first long ask we've ever received. We've been half-thinking it's like, a myth or a bug that only affects other people's inboxes, but were actually never intrigued enough to go typing our own novel into somebody's messages. Either way, I'm gonna read this now, thank you a ton for your time!

Funnily enough, the host, confronted with her first information about systems, started her response with "I'm definitely a singlet, but..." so that seems to check out. (Plot twist, she wasn't.) The second was her being gently told that maybe she should look deeper into it, after which she went to our other friend and said "I know that's what this is, but the crew knows their place and their place is to sit the fuck down and be quiet", which I find absolutely hilarious. Like, yeah, we're not quiet and we definitely didn't sit down at all. She's calmed down since.

I'm sorry you guys went through hell. I can't imagine what it would have been like for us to "grow up" in anything but the supportive environment we had. We took our sweet time avoiding any and all negativity, too, anything that smelled like controversy wasn't something we were gonna look at, we had enough to deal with internally trying to figure out our communications, our structure, functions, the whole mile, yeah? Not many of us even believed that we were real. It was like waking up from some kind of a half-lucid sleep and finding ourselves in the system, growing into awareness of our individuality and free will. It wasn't like snapping fingers for most of us, especially me, since I was a new split at the time - it was a bit easier for the guys who'd been around for longer, but yeah, I took months coming out of my shell. I'm pretty resistant to it now, I mean, what's the worst that can happen, right? Somebody tells us we're not real and we continue existing, like, it's not going to change anything. But not everyone feels that way, so we're still a bit wary, try not to make a big scene, for the main part. (Jay likes picking fights, but he's always been like that. It's pretty hard for the rest of the system who don't feel as confident as he does, or as invested in what he calls "intellectual challenge".)

So yeah, I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. That makes sense that it wouldn't be entirely different for us, I guess. If you wanna come back and chat more, what's it like, living like, I guess what you'd call non-disordered multiplicity or something like that? I'm having a hard time imagining us without the amnesia and the whole other weirdness, like triggers, splits being brought on by negative circumstances so everybody kind of arrives as a bloody mess, that kind of thing. How's it different? What's it like living that way? I guess as a system that still deals with trauma symptoms, you might not even experience it very differently from us, but still, hey, if you've got thoughts on how your experience differs from the disorders, fire away.