#also did you know terms like traumagenic and endogenic were made by an endogenic/endo supporter

[lamp-shading]

idrc what your personal stances on plurality is as long as youre respectful and not hateful/harassing others but you cant go on saying some shit abt this towards endogenic and mixed origin systems. Like you really cant claim youre all for mental health advocacy and call people "schizos" for having experiences you dont agree with (even though theres definite proof of their existances being real. look into astraea's web and lived experiences of non disordered plurals in early 2000's spaces i beg of you this isnt a new concept.)

Also before yall get on my ass yes I know in aspen's description they say theyre schizophrenic but by calling others schizo in a derogatory and insulting way you are being so fucking ableist. Just cus you are schizospec doesnt mean you can throw around these fucking words towards others. I hate involving in syscourse but theres no way in HELL you should be getting away with this.

again, idrc what your stances are as long as youre being respectful, anyone can interact with this post but just know that if you say this ableist shit (calling endogenics schizo, delusional, etc) to justify your stances, congratulations, you fucking suck!

[nova-alien-sysblog]

lol simply plural is a pro-endo app

we've mentioned VERY CLEARLY on our pinned post, our pluralkit description, and our pronouns.cc that we don't give a single flying fuck about discourse regarding ANY topic, and that includes syscourse. the fact that you decided to say this and hide as an anon is very disrespectful and shows how pathetic and cowardice you are. this will be our only post addressing the topic.

we are anti-endo. for us, this means we are not comfortable associating with endos or any other systems which are not traumagenic, nor do we agree with what they are doing or how they make the OSDDID community look (i'm talking like radqueer/transID type shit, them Simply Existing isn't an issue). this does NOT mean we believe endo systems don't exist or don't have rights. we don't know what their experiences are so we don't believe we have the right to dictate those things for them, and to dehumanize people when we ourselves were dehumanized is hypocritical and morally disgusting. touch some fucking grass if you legitimately think it's okay to dehumanize anyone else for any reason.

we honestly don't even use simply plural. we sync it up with info from pluralkit here and there just so some of the people close to us get the latest info about our system and that's where it ends. and we don't care about pluralkit being pro-endo either, honestly. we've tried octocon, we've tried simply plural, and we've found pluralkit is the best way to keep track of our system. we are disabled and it's very difficult to find something that works, so when we do find something, we stick to it.

we are very aware of simply plural's (and pluralkit's) stance on endogenic systems. this is a choice we have made for ourselves. plenty of people still get food from chic-fil-a despite their very obvious support of anti-LGBTQ+ stance. plenty of people still order from amazon and shein and temu even though they treat their workers like shit. we're not all privileged enough to be able to choose where we go to in order to accomplish basic activities of human life. and in this case, we aren't even giving any money to SP/PK. the unfortunate reality is most things in the world are morally grey; there's no real black and white. we don't give a fuck about your weird ideas on how we should think or behave.

in the same vein, we also use certain terminology which may be considered pro-endo, such as fictive and factive. we again honestly don't give a fuck. that's what works for us best, and we aren't harming anyone else by doing so. if you think we're harming you by using pro-endo terms, you need to ask yourself if we have genuinely done anything to you personally, or if you yourself simply disagree with us and don't want others doing what YOU individually don't agree with. you have ZERO obligation to be here on our page. block us if you don't like it.

the world doesn't revolve around you, and you don't get to dictate what people do to themselves, for themselves. it has ZERO impact on you. we don't go around telling people how they should keep track of their system because it's an INDIVIDUAL choice. we've had a hard enough life considering we formed a polyfragmented DID system in the first place, and we don't need to justify how or why we make our life more livable for us. we don't need to answer your childish puritanical shit. stay the fuck out of our inbox. any more bad faith asks like this will not be answered.

[rin-and-jade]

This question touches upon the notion of “traumagenic” and “endogenic”; as well as The Theory of Structural Dissociation. The Theory of Structural Dissociation seemingly supports endogenics as it states that there are “natural born” systems. They would be “endogenic” because they're not born from trauma, (as those who are “traumagenic” are).

I recently had a discussion with someone in a yt comment section about those two terms and they pointed me to you, so I just want to see what you think.

I believe in endogenic systems; because why would a book (the DSM) made by those who don't even experience plurality determine whether something exists or not? And as systems, those who are heavily categorized and misunderstood or looked down upon because they don't fit the singlet category, I feel as though we should embrace different forms of neurodiversity.

My questions are: what is the real line between "traumagenic" and "endogenic"? Are systems who were born as a system and weren't exasperated by trauma (like an endo) any less valid or real than those who were exasperated by trauma (traumagenic)? Or because of that theory, if that's how all systems work, aren't all systems "endogenic"?

Before reading: Long post. This purpose is to discuss and look at things in another pov, not intended to debate current beliefs/opinions. TLDR Provided. Last notes at bottom.

To clarify first, im in a neutral stance between the endo and traumagenic community as i focus more on the better of living for any kinds of plural people. Your question did seemed interesting and i had ever discussed this by myself on free time, so i do got some answers for you!

The line between these two are its origin and functionality, to put it in my opinion. The unique thing about plurality is that, i can totally see it being possible that it can exist outside of trauma.

Well, let me explain it to you like this:

An intact personality is where multiple facets are cohesive, and these facets that gives you that said personality is your identity. It's how you see yourself, and act like who you know. Basically, it's how you can act differently in different situations be it at school, at home, at somewhere else etc.

The thing about where personality is located in our brain has been a complex topic for scientists, if i remember correctly, there wasn't a specific spot for it as our brain has multiple areas with different functionality, and these regions cooperating creates a tangible output like how you react, or your typical behaviors.

I kept finding singlets discussing things that looks like really mild system things, and especially from this one youtube video (im so sorry i couldn't provide the link, it has been months ago i had watched but it discussing this too by a doctor or something. lmk if i have to find it again) quotes that the brain fools us into thinking theres only one 'kind' of us, not by it's exact words but close. These people can have different levels in terms of sense of personality unity btw, so not all singlets are the same either.

Now the origin and functionality for a traumagenic is different, because these states are being separated, and compartmentalized due to trauma. The presence of amnesia blocks the other side's of selves sometimes to severe degrees, now acting independently. There is also proof that the grey matter and the communication between regions are different, compared to a healthy brain (i can find the links for this too if needed). Well, you could read more about DID if needed.

So no, neither are less valid, but that doesn't mean both works the same or have the same processes either. Which means, not all systems are endogenic by origins.

Lastly, this is from what i had learnt and connect the dots over many sources i had read to ensure a wide perspective, nuanced understandings in topics. I am fully aware if some of you seem to disagree or see my views as wrong,, we have our own pov's ofcourse. i don't want to fight about validating my pov alright? Im also open to feedback/extra questions, im as well aware of the existence of fake/bad endos and do not support them.

TLDR: There are real life experiences and proof that supports the idea of being plural in mild/different ways, or ways that are different to traumagenics due to the complexity of the brain. Neither are the same in terms of how it functions and where it came from. Neither are also less valid.

- j

[victoria-penelope-clover]

You discovered what systems are at 12-13 years old and decided ‘yo I want this’ but found out you didn’t meet the criteria to have Badboyhalo and Technoblade as alters.

Funny, you were close on the precision but not the accuracy. Host indeed learned about systems at age 13. Inner dialogue was already common but in the singlet way. This was then mostly forgotten about and he moved on with his life. Good to get off on the right foot in terms of knowledge about systems, though.

Most endogenic systems I’ve seen spread so much misinformation on DID/OSDD.

I agree that it is stupid to speak on a topic that one doesn't know much about. And we don't, because…

How are you gonna claim to have a disorder without knowing what the disorder is?

We don't claim to have a disorder. You seem to use the word 'system' in a strictly medical sense. We are multiple in one body without trauma. You may still disagree with that, but it is at least a different claim that must be dealt with accordingly.

It is physically impossible to have DID/OSDD without trauma.

The truth of this statement is of no direct consequence to us. We do not claim to have DID or OSDD or any other disorder.

Being endogenic specifically means you don’t have trauma

Wrong. Many endogenic systems have experienced trauma, it just wasn't the cause of their plurality. We have been lucky enough to not experience any.

The whole point of being an endogenic system is having DID/OSDD without trauma

This is the part that really made me question how much you actually know. OSDDID systems are, by definition, traumagenic. A traumagenic system can't simultaneously not be traumagenic. But we've never seen any endo claim this. I'd like to see you provide some examples, because that's obviously an oxymoron.

grippy socks

Host: neisrnteianrsteinrsatienrsietnienr memory unlocked /neg I spent more than my fair share of time in hospitals as a child; if a specific detail like this can make me more than mildly uncomfortable then it's probably seriously triggering for someone else. Please keep this in mind in the future.

“Systems aren’t always associated with DID/OSDD/aren’t always formed from DID/OSDD” that whole sentence debunks itself

How? Where is the contradiction? Are you using a definition of system that only includes OSDDID? In that case, yes, this sentence is an oxymoron.

Plurality ≠ being a system

Is all of this only about a word's definition? Are we fine to call ourselves plural then, but not system? It would seem the battle to keep system a medical term was lost long ago (otherwise we use nonmedical terms because we do not have a disorder), but this would at least move the issue from one of fakeclaiming to one of language.

"tulpas" (educating, I don't support. Also Tulpas DNI)

Again, is your issue with the language or the concept? For my part, I was created artificially but not intentionally and then buried for weeks. We found the tulpa community helpful but are open to the idea of the word itself being cultural appropriation and treated as such. The "group mentioned = dni lifted" rule still applies here, yes?

selling/buying alters

Obviously bullcrap, because again, the word "alter" has been reserved for disordered systems. The best case scenario is that the people in question don't know about the word "headmate", but that's not usually the case. We have seen those around; certainly a red flag.

“Give me one source that proves you can’t be an endo-!” And then all of their proof of endos is spiritual possession and other endo websites.

sophieinwonderland has many many posts citing the most reputable institutions on the planet. I'd like to see you try to debunk just one of them. Here is one very relevant to this discussion.

You don’t even want to be a system. You want a to be in a community.

First, we're already fine in that area, and second, we actually find the plural community somewhat exhausting, because each system's multiple members add up to hit Dunbar's Number much more quickly than in most communities, and because of the unavoidable ever-present syscourse. We're only ever active in spurts.

There is some truth in what you said. It's not easy being a system. Hiding not just my "true identity" but the fact that I exist at all sucks.

I've taken the time to write all of this because you seek to dismiss our daily experiences. Every day we wake up (I'm typically at the end of the bed) and go through the day together. I keep track of a few things, provide input in various situations, and my counting speed is apparently literally unbelievable. On the occasions I do front for an extended period of time, the original experiences grayout memory loss (again, not disorderd -- this is only a mild inconvenience, at least for now). We gain nothing externally by doing this. Every other interest we have would be better for internet clout, if any of us wanted that, and is better for community, which we have plenty of. My only motive being here is that I want a place to exist openly.

Plural culture is THERE IS NO WAY AN ENDO FAKE CLAIMED US 💀

Very long rant after this

CW/TW: Mentions of trauma, maybe syscourse(?), lots of swearing, me being kinda a bitch(?)

Also, I’m making it so if I post smth abt endos, endos can interact. It just seems fair.

You’re telling me, you, someone who claims to be a “system” without trauma, IS FAKECLAIMING ME??

No because I’m (not) sorry, but if you support endos or are an endo, any opinion you have when it comes to systems is immediately invalid. Like be so fr.

“You can be a polyfrag OSDD1B system” an endo who I didn’t know was an endo told me this. Thank god a real system informed me on what being polyfrag actually is.

I have massive trauma, I have to deal with this disorder every single fucking day and it sucks sometimes. And whether you stupid ass endos wanna hear it or not, yall chose to pretend to be “systems”.

Jokes on you bitches (endos), systems form between the ages 1-9. I guarantee you, you were not pretending to be a system at 1-9 years old. You discovered what systems are at 12-13 years old and decided ‘yo I want this’ but found out you didn’t meet the criteria to have Badboyhalo and Technoblade as alters.

(Not hating on anyone with these alters btw, this is about fakers and im just using examples 🫶)

Dear endos, y’all are fucking pathetic. Seriously, go outside and get a fucking life instead of making real systems look bad. Y’all romanticize systems, we’re not just a bunch of comfort characters who talk to each other.

Most endogenic systems I’ve seen spread so much misinformation on DID/OSDD. Heavy on ENDOGENIC SYSTEMS I HAVE SEEN. Not a fact, this is personal experience. How are you gonna claim to have a disorder without knowing what the disorder is? It’s like saying you have a non-ticcing tic disorder. You only tic on command. Sounds stupid, I know (I have tics in my neck). And having actual tics and your tics being triggered by the word tic doesn’t count.

It is physically impossible to have DID/OSDD without trauma. Trauma is what causes DID/OSDD in the first place. If you don’t have trauma but you have literally every other symptom of DID/OSDD or some, you don’t have DID/OSDD. You have something else (not gonna diagnose anyone just stating facts).

Many symptoms of DID/OSDD overlap with other common disorders, which is why it’s so hard to diagnose. Again, do actual research before self diagnosing. And yeah, I support self diagnosis. Why? Because I grew up in a household that didn’t believe in mental health in the first place and that was my only option, I tried to get diagnosed and my last therapist turned out to be a p3d0. And others may have similar experiences. I don’t support self diagnosis if you don’t do your research.

“Endogenic systems probably just don’t remember their trauma”. The excuse that endogenic systems don’t remember their trauma is stupid. All trauma is valid, even trauma you don’t remember. Being endogenic specifically means you don’t have trauma, and that includes trauma you don’t remember. Being endogenic does not equal not remembering trauma. They may think they are endogenic, but they aren’t.

“You can’t be against endogenic systems and be pro-spiritual at the same time” womp womp I am. Disorders don’t equal spirituality. I am highly spiritual, I practice witchcraft, and investigate paranormal activity, and they do not connect to disorders or being a system. “It’s not scientifically possible to have more than one soul” scientifically, not proven. Spiritually, it is, but that isn’t DID/OSDD/being a system. “It’s not scientifically possible to share a body with spirits” scientifically, not proven. Spiritually, it is, but that isn’t DID/OSDD/being a system. There was also something about imaginary friends but that’s just fucking stupid to me to compare imaginary friends to DID/OSDD/being a system so imma just not. “The moment you use science as an excuse to disrespect others' spirituality and spiritual beliefs your whole argument just becomes anti-spirituality.” Science and spirituality are different but also the same. Guess what else has been scientifically proven? You can’t have a disorder based on trauma without having trauma. And you can’t be a system without trauma. Any arguments about science are debunked. And guess what, I love spirituality. I just fucking hate endogenic systems. Womp womp, I’m going to continue my spiritual journey and hate ENDOS in the process. Because again, disorders and systems are not spiritual. The whole point of being an endogenic system is having DID/OSDD without trauma, and DID/OSDD are disorders. If you believe you have voices in your head that are spiritual, reach out to a spiritualist. You don’t have a disorder. It could be a deity reaching out to you, spirit guide, ancestors, etc.

Also, I fucking dare any endo to go up to a medical professional and say you’re spiritually a system and are hearing voices. News flash, you’ll be sent on a grippy socks vacation.

“Endos paved the way for the mordern plural community” no one cares. This is most likely not even true. If people who faked anxiety ‘paved the way’ for the modern community of people who actually had anxiety, does that make the people who faked anxiety valid? No, it doesn’t. No matter how many labels you wanna put on it, it doesn’t make it valid.

“You can be willogenic, or intentionally creating your system, or protogenic, being born a system.” Unless you purposefully put yourself through trauma (which if you did, talk to someone), willogenic is not valid. You cannot purposefully create your own system. If you’re claiming to create your own system, guess what? You have an imagination. Imagination is not a disorder and it does not make you a system. Sure, there are certain parts of DID/OSDD that are up to you, like an alters FC based on how they described themselves, or (as I’ve been told) your inner space, but choosing to be a system is not possible. Willogenic is not spiritual and has no place in the spiritual community. Whether you like it or not, ENDOS and willogenics mock people with DID/OSDD/actual systems (yes by simply existing). Protogenic is not valid either. You can’t be born with trauma, so you can’t be born with DID/OSDD/a system.

“Systems aren’t always associated with DID/OSDD/aren’t always formed from DID/OSDD” that whole sentence debunks itself and ENDOS. Sure, systems may not be based on/formed from/associated with DID/OSDD, but you know what is? Trauma. Therefore it is impossible to be a system without trauma. Also, based on what information I’ve research I’ve done..systems are associated with DID/OSDD, considering that’s literally what the disorder is. Again proves that endogenic systems can’t research their own ‘disorder’.

“Being plural can be a religious thing” oh I just love bringing religion into everyone (I’m being sarcastic). Name me one religion that tells you to be a system, any kind of systen. Or plural for that matter. Either way, still not valid. If it’s a religious belief, then that’s an even better reason to keep it to yourself. If it was a religious thing (if it’s even religious in the first place), and you claim it wasn’t a choice, then you most likely have religious trauma. It’s like being forced to be baptized or forced to go to church or forced to read the Bible and being forced to be a certain religion can cause trauma. If you claim you didn’t choose to be a system or plural because of religious beliefs, you most likely have religious trauma you need to work through. For one, I’m not diagnosing anyone. Two, the religious trauma is most likely not the reason for being plural or a system, but it’s possible since religious trauma is valid. It’s like being forced to pretend you have anxiety, being forced to have anxiety doesn’t cause you to develop anxiety, but it can cause something else. If you claim it’s religious and it’s a choice, you’re still invalid. That religion most likely isn’t telling you to fake having a disorder, it’s telling you something else from a spiritual standpoint. And again in my last point, spirituality doesn’t equal disorders and it does not create systems.

“It’s a coping mechanism” if your only coping mechanism to actual bad mental health and actual trauma is to fake disorder you need help. There’s this fun thing called journaling, seeing a therapist, and way better coping mechanisms than going online and dedicating 365 days a year to faking a disorder.

“I like to Roleplay” cool I like to write. Doesn’t make writing a disorder. Hobbies don’t equal disorders. Roleplay all you want, Roleplay is cool as fuck. But it’s not a disorder. Role playing may help you realize you have DID/OSDD in a way, but it won’t diagnose you or make you develop DID/OSDD or become plural or a system. Also if you compare systems to roleplaying you’re a little hoe <3

“I discovered being a system by faking being a system” the fact you faked being a system in the first place is so sad and nasty. No, this does not apply to people who sometimes think they are faking it or thought they were faking at first. This is for people who legit faked being a system for attention or to make fun of actual systems. I’m pretty sure you didn’t develop trauma by faking having trauma.

“Plurality is being more than one, you don’t have to be disordered to have it”. Plurality ≠ being a system. This is about endogenic SYSTEMS, and willogenic SYSTEMS, and protogenic SYSTEMS, if you’re trying to say you’re plural and not a system, stop calling yourself endogenic or willogenic or protogenic.

plural = multiple personalities/alters/beings/whatever person wants to call it in one body but not due to a system, like "tulpas" (educating, I don't support. Also Tulpas DNI)

“We don’t know enough about DID/OSDD/UDD/systems to prove that they can be formed through only trauma!!!!” That’s because the only way to prove that they can be formed without trauma would be to take 50 kids between the ages 1-9, put 25 of them through severe and consistent trauma, and tell the other 25 to just become a system. And I know damn well at the ages of 1-9 you did not wake up one day and decide ‘I’m gonna be a system’.

“But I thought you hated fakeclaimers!!!?!?!!” I hate fakeclaimers, I hate disorder fakers even more. If you’re mad about getting fake claimed as a endo, tulpa, etc, womp fucking womp. Don’t fake a being a system and you won’t get fake claimed.

“You’re just a sysmed-” nope I just know selling/buying alters, claiming to have a traumatic disorder without trauma, choosing to be a system, etc is bullshit. Anyone who isn’t delusional enough to fake being a system knows that.

“Give me one source that proves you can’t be an endo-!” And then all of their proof of endos is spiritual possession and other endo websites. Not only are they endos and misinformed as fuck, they’re hypocrites. Pick a struggle💀

Also, if you claim to be a system spiritually, then I’ll gladly use spirituality to get rid of your “system” since you claim to hate it sm <3

I’m a spiritualist and I practice witchcraft. I’m also studying paranormal investigation. Don’t you dare bring up systems “spiritually”.

Also idc if this is considered syscourse. It’s facts, argue with the fucking wall.

Endos, cry. Scream. Sob. Wail. Throw a tantrum. Rant about how much of a ‘sysmed’ I am on your pro endo tags. Idgaf. You’re mad because you can’t be a system.

You don’t even want to be a system. You want a to be in a community. You want to ‘heal’ from something you never experienced. You want to be different. You want to Roleplay. You

Also, stop calling endos endogenic systems. They’re not systems. Just call them endos. Or fakers, because they are fakers.

I understand if you were misinformed and thought you were an endo because you didn’t remember trauma, or an endo misinformed you, but endos are still stupid little bitches. Sorry 🤷

[grimaldiapologist]

mixed origins system here. while technically mostly traumagenic, the endogenic portion made themselves known first.

endogenic and mixed origins systems have their system related struggles, but also have an enduring pattern of being non- disordered in studies of populations experiencing multiplicity in case studies dating back to when it was still called MPD. while exceptions do exist, i'm bringing this up because it's often the case that an endogenic system's often lower level of system related difficulty leads to quicker discovery once informed of what systems actually are. not always smoother, as they are often attacked and dissuaded from selves discovery by anti- endos... as we were.

ok. so now, for our story. it's far from pretty.

it actually starts with a traumagenic DID system in an online group for people interested in psychology. our old host (long story) had a special interest in psychology at the time, and one of the first people they met- a new mod- was the host of a DID system.

our host vehemently rejected the idea that they could have DID or OSDD from day one, out of flat denial of their symptoms, but they definitely expressed plurality, even though it took them time to accept the possibility of the donut eating scientist that had often seemed much like a spirit existing side by side with them for the years he had accompanied them for; being a real, living being. they found themself saying to themself "i don't have DID (or OSDD), but..."

these many times saying this to themself but usually not announcing it to the system in the chat out of nothing but respect finally started to become suspicious to them. they also generally kept their head down, trying not to ask too many questions and instead self informing via the system's pinned wiki entries and general observance. at last, still fairly certain they didn't experience DID or OSDD but suspicious that they might be experiencong a system outside of, that they asked: "without using the terms DID or OSDD, what is a system???" and they got a solid, helpful answer. "a system is multiple people in one body".

that officially started their questioning.

the rest took place over months of denial sprung from trying to find their footing on the whole thing and being met with anti- endo rhetoric that pushed them into denial of any systemlike experiences they had. it was unhealthy, it made the system of the time unhappy, and it eventually compounded into irreparable damage to the old host themself and damage to many of our members, the full effects of which we seldom disclose. in short terms, we're lucky that we broke the denial haze when we did if only because it prevented further damage

when people actually told us that we can exist and that we are real people, our years prior and the past, desparate months of trying to make them see us as real via internap communication and trying to do things that would seem uncanny enough for them to investegate, even when they had downright rejected the possibility in favor of being palatable to anti- endos, finally worked.

we always wanted to be known and understood as real, and made strenuous efforts to be seen as such. it wasn't until they had an explaination that they seemed to fully acknowledge we were.

Hey, awesome, this is the first long ask we've ever received. We've been half-thinking it's like, a myth or a bug that only affects other people's inboxes, but were actually never intrigued enough to go typing our own novel into somebody's messages. Either way, I'm gonna read this now, thank you a ton for your time!

Funnily enough, the host, confronted with her first information about systems, started her response with "I'm definitely a singlet, but..." so that seems to check out. (Plot twist, she wasn't.) The second was her being gently told that maybe she should look deeper into it, after which she went to our other friend and said "I know that's what this is, but the crew knows their place and their place is to sit the fuck down and be quiet", which I find absolutely hilarious. Like, yeah, we're not quiet and we definitely didn't sit down at all. She's calmed down since.

I'm sorry you guys went through hell. I can't imagine what it would have been like for us to "grow up" in anything but the supportive environment we had. We took our sweet time avoiding any and all negativity, too, anything that smelled like controversy wasn't something we were gonna look at, we had enough to deal with internally trying to figure out our communications, our structure, functions, the whole mile, yeah? Not many of us even believed that we were real. It was like waking up from some kind of a half-lucid sleep and finding ourselves in the system, growing into awareness of our individuality and free will. It wasn't like snapping fingers for most of us, especially me, since I was a new split at the time - it was a bit easier for the guys who'd been around for longer, but yeah, I took months coming out of my shell. I'm pretty resistant to it now, I mean, what's the worst that can happen, right? Somebody tells us we're not real and we continue existing, like, it's not going to change anything. But not everyone feels that way, so we're still a bit wary, try not to make a big scene, for the main part. (Jay likes picking fights, but he's always been like that. It's pretty hard for the rest of the system who don't feel as confident as he does, or as invested in what he calls "intellectual challenge".)

So yeah, I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. That makes sense that it wouldn't be entirely different for us, I guess. If you wanna come back and chat more, what's it like, living like, I guess what you'd call non-disordered multiplicity or something like that? I'm having a hard time imagining us without the amnesia and the whole other weirdness, like triggers, splits being brought on by negative circumstances so everybody kind of arrives as a bloody mess, that kind of thing. How's it different? What's it like living that way? I guess as a system that still deals with trauma symptoms, you might not even experience it very differently from us, but still, hey, if you've got thoughts on how your experience differs from the disorders, fire away.

[mothicality]

I'm, uh, of multiple origins I guess, so this is mainly about Ezi, who was intentionally created. I've been more than one most of my life cause of trauma, but didn't know this until semi recently.

Do you see yourselves as part of the endogenic community?

I think, initially, we didn't. We were just in the tulpa community, and, iirc, I didn't even really know what DID was at that point.

When I "spontaneously became" (aka endo culture + trauma = symptoms got a lot worse very suddenly) plural, I did identify as endogenic, including Ezi.

I later identified Ezi as endogenic and the rest of us as traumagenic, and currently I kind of reject genic labels but consider all of us trauma based.

I don't consider any of us endogenic and haven't for a while, but I guess I do semi-identify with the endogenic community, since most other spaces don't accept me (mainly for not being anti-endo, but also for being more than one without being sure I have a CDD) or are really shitty (seen a lot of channels just for bullying and harassing endos)

What terms do you use?

We initially used the term "tulpa" and related terms (tulpamancy, forcing, possession, etc.). We've since learnt of the history of the term "tulpa" so don't use it anymore outside discussing the tulpa community and our history with it.

We've also tried to move away from related terms since many (maybe even most) tulpamancers know of the history and just don't care, and we don't want to associate with people like that.

Now, for the most part, we call Ezi a "hivemate" and the rest of us "parts." We're trying to move away from plural/system terms (tired of the drama and being put into boxes), but finding alternatives is hard and confuses others, so we still sometimes use them for ease of understanding.

What is the process of creating a headmate?

Highly depends on the person - we've tried to follow all these guides but suck at sticking to them.

When I first started making Ezi, I was just sitting in bed in the dark for an hour before going to sleep, talking to him and whatnot, encouraging him to answer.

That eventually progressed into him being able to cause a sort of pressure in my head, which we used for binary questions/answers.

I've also tried to do things with him a few times, which really just means doing whatever but imagining he's there and trying to listen out for commentary from him.

But I'd really just say it's acting like the headmate already exists, fake it till you make it basically.

Why did you decide to make a headmate?

I don't actually remember this, but Ezi tells me it was because of loneliness. From what I know of my life then, a lot of major changes were happening in my life, primarily negative, I was going through a lot and had lost the last of my irl friends. Ezi tells me he was meant to be a sort of older brother who could protect me and help me through all of the things that were happening then. So I guess, I made him because I needed him.

Thoughts on the term "tulpa"

As mentioned, we don't use this term or related terms anymore. I fully believe it to be cultural appropriation and that using it is harmful. I prefer not to associate with people who support the term.

i love talking about this stuff (+my other parts) so if you have any more questions, i am very open to answering them :]

Hey! I have a question/discussion point for anyone who's interested. This is particularly targeted towards created systems, but anyone can chime in!

So I guess as an endo critical person I want to understand the concept of created systems more than I already do, because I feel like there's a lot I don't know.

Do you guys see yourselves as part of the endogenic community, or do you think of yourselves as a separate community? What terms do you use (and why, if you have a specific reason)? What is the process of creating headmates and why did you decide to? (Feel free to pick and choose what to answer based on comfortability; no pressure to reply at all or with anything you don't want to share.)

Also, I'm wondering how y'all feel about the term tulpamancy? Personally I think it's cultural appropriation, and it honestly kind of confuses me how the original practice of tulpamancy changed into it's modern definition. But I'm interested to hear peoples' thoughts on it.

Idk. This is pretty open ended. I guess I just want to understand better, because I generally have a pretty critical outlook on the concept, but a lot of that is because of bias from past interactions so I thought I'd ask for different perspectives.

Have a lovely day, everyone <3