#also JON IS SANSA'S HERO PASS IT ON!!! | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

cellsshapedlikestars · 2 years ago

Note

I'm loving all your one-shots!

For a prompt, how about Jon's known Sansa as his best friend's sister all his life, but they meet each other online (maybe on a role-playing fantasy game or on an anonymous twitter post?), not knowing who the other was and start flirting and catching feelings?

I can't believe some of these prompts are from... what, 7/8 months ago??? And I still have more, I'm sorry if anyone has submitted a prompt and I haven't gotten to it yet!

But thank you for sending this one, it was fun! It also, as usual, turned out longer than I expected.

read it on ao3 here:

ephemera, chapter 34

The first time Sansa plays a video game, she's attracted to the bright colors and the rainbow racetrack, there's even a princess character in a bright pink dress, and she tentatively asks Robb if she can play (Robb groans and makes a fuss, and it is, ultimately, Jon who hands over his controller to let her try). Except Sansa keeps sliding off the track into a pit of blackness, and she falls so behind that Robb and Theon and all the computer characters cross the finish line while she's still way back, and she ends up shoving the controller back at Jon and running up the basement stairs nearly in tears, vowing to never play a video game again.

That resolve lasts a solid ten years, until two months into her second semester of college.

The first semester had been a dream. She finally got to go south, she'd been swept up in a new relationship with perfect Joffrey Baratheon, and she made a whole slew of friends.

Except Joffrey wasn't perfect, and it turns out, all her friends were Joffrey's friends, and so when they broke up, just before Christmas break, she found herself still in the south the next semester, but now alone and ostracized by the clique that had initially taken her in.

Humiliated by the breakup and the loss of her friends, she holes herself up in her dorm room all January, only leaving for classes and the lunch hall, where she grabs food and rushes back to her dorm to eat alone.

February is the same.

Around the beginning of March, she gets bored and lonely enough to do something she never thought she'd do – check out that game Bran keeps talking about nonstop.

She really has no idea what an MMO is, and then they go ahead and tack on even more letters. MMORPG means absolutely nothing to her.

Still. The artwork is sort of pretty and it seems like high fantasy, which Sansa always loves, even if she pretends she doesn't anymore. Elves and dwarves and knights and heroes and magic swords and unicorns... So she creates an account and spends a ridiculous amount of time creating a character. Lady Alayne, she calls herself.

And then she is thrust into the world of Legends of Lightbringer.

…

For all that Sansa had wanted to run back home after losing Joffrey and all her friends, she doesn't.

She stays in the south, keeps going to her classes, and eventually makes a few new friends who may not be as glamorous as the ones she made first, but who are infinitely better for her.

And, of course, she keeps playing.

Eventually, she realizes that if she wants to get her hands on certain items, or pass through certain levels, she needs a guild - a group to help her fight, that would have people with different classes and skillsets than her. It's nerve-wracking, trying to choose, and there are so many. She stays away from the one she knows Bran is in, because that would be weird. (Not that she told Bran she was playing. She hasn't told anyone she's playing this. She honestly isn't sure anyone would even believe her if she did.)

In the end, she settles on a group for Winterfell locals. She tells them she's currently in school in the south, but from Winterfell originally and missing home, and they welcome her into their party (though honestly, she thinks it was less her sob story and more that they really needed a replacement cleric, but still).

…

In their first raid, they lose.

Sansa blinks away tears of humiliation as one of the party members, some jerk named DreadfulBastard69, goes off in the group chat about her - horrid things about how they should never have let a girl into the group. (He doesn't say it like that, though. He says much, much worse things that Sansa will never repeat to anyone.)

She almost leaves the group and disables her account, but through the tirade, she sees something else.

Daeron_Dragonwolf: leave her alone

Daeron_Dragonwolf: we lost because we haven't practiced in a while

Daeron_Dragonwolf: not because she's a girl

Daeron_Dragonwolf: so shut the fuck up

Which, in turn, causes the other members of the group to chime in that they didn't blame her, either.

MaesterSamTar: plus, we don't even know if she is a girl

MaesterSamTar: you're making assumptions based off the username

As this is happening, she gets a DM from Daeron_Dragonwolf.

Daeron_Dragonwolf: sorry about him

Daeron_Dragonwolf: he's the worst

Daeron_Dragonwolf: don't listen to any of it, you did a great job for your first dungeon run

LadyAlayne286: thanks

LadyAlayne286: I'm still new to all this, so if there is anything I did wrong, please let me know

LadyAlayne286: I promise, I'm a quick learner

She actually isn't so sure about that part, but she's going to try as hard as she can to be the best cleric, so they never regret her.

…

Three days later, in a vote she isn't involved in because she's still too new to the group, DreadfulBastard69 is kicked out.

Sansa can only feel relief. Those three days had been a mild sort of torture for her – every time the group chat pinged, her heart would stutter, just waiting for DreadfulBastard69 to start up again. But now he's gone and she can breathe easier.

Secretly, she thinks she has Daeron_Dragonwolf to thank.

…

She grows closer to the whole group, but it's Daeron she feels the most comfortable talking to solo. Sometimes when their guildmates are being idiots, Daeron will side DM her in discord, because – in his words – he needs someone rational to talk to.

She thinks Daeron is a him. She's pretty sure the whole group are boys, just from the way they talk, and she knows they range anywhere from twenty to forty. Sansa's the youngest, just turned nineteen, though she lied when she initially joined and said she was already nineteen, because she felt that saying she was eighteen would sound fake. Like maybe they'd think she was a kid trying to get into an 18+ only group.

They're all nice, but it's Daeron who truly makes her feel welcome.

…

Summer break is a godsend.

She's back in Winterfell, and Jeyne and Beth are here and she feels like herself again. It's curious to her that she doesn't lose interest in the game, now that she doesn't feel lonely. She still stays up much too late raiding with her group, though she's having a harder time doing it on her laptop. She wishes she had her desktop, but that's back in her dorm.

Daeron_Dragonwolf: how's break?

LadyAlayne286: good to be back home

LadyAlayne286: except for my little sister. She's still a terror

LadyAlayne286: you?

Sansa looks up, to where Arya and Rickon are shooting at each other with water guns. Arya's already threatened Sansa with it five different times, even though Sansa's just sitting here on the chair by the pool and not bothering anyone. Robb and Theon are in the pool, but Jon isn't with them – he sits on one of the chairs on the other side, on his phone.

Daeron_Dragonwolf: at my best friend's house

Daeron_Dragonwolf: it always feels weird on breaks now. Like we revert to being back in high school when we see each other

In the distance, she can hear Robb and Theon messing around, and she rolls her eyes.

LadyAlayne286: I know exactly what you mean

…

Sansa's in class when she comes to the realization that Daeron might be her best friend.

That's ridiculous, though.

Sure, she's been talking to him for over a year now, pretty much every day at this point. Sure, she tells him things she doesn't tell her King's Landing friends, because even though they're nicer than Joffrey's crew, they'd still judge her. Like, she's been playing Legend of Lightbringer for over a year, and the only person in her real life that knows is Jeyne. She would never dare to tell her King's Landing friends.

She and Daeron talk about non-game things – at first, it had just been what other games they play (none, for Sansa), and then what other sort of media they like (they both love Lord of the Rings, though he also loves Star Wars and she thinks space is boring. This caused a nearly two hour long argument that she thinks, to this day, still isn't resolved).

Somehow, without her even realizing, they'd started talking about real things, too. How isolated she still feels in the south. How he isn't sure what he wants to do with his life once he graduates.

It was Daeron she messaged first when she caught Harry cheating.

But Daeron can't be her best friend, because she doesn't even know his real name.

In the beginning, she was too wary of talking to strangers on the internet, and so she made sure to never give any identifiable information about herself, except that she's from Winterfell and going to school in King's Landing. She never uses names, even with Harry. Daeron's mostly the same – she isn't sure if it's because he's also thinking about stranger danger, or if he simply picked up on her hesitance and kept himself at a distance, too.

And yet, she still trusts Daeron more than she trusts most of her friends, and what does that say about her?

…

Beginning around year two, some of their conversations turn flirtatious. Sansa's pretty certain she starts it, because Harry was cheating on her and it felt nice to flirt with someone who... well, couldn't really do anything about it, because he lived halfway across the country.

It's never anything outright, and she always pulls back when she thinks she's going too far, but still.

She knows she shouldn't.

(Except, when she has a notification on discord, she gets butterflies in her tummy, and more than one person has commented that she's always smiling down at her phone.)

…

LadyAlayne286: tell me not to punch my brother at his own graduation party

Daeron_Dragonwolf: I don't know if I can tell you that

Daeron_Dragonwolf: what's he doing?

Sansa looks up at Robb and his new girlfriend, Jeyne W. Ever since they started dating, he's been absolutely smitten, to the point where it's bordering on annoying. Arya agrees with her, too, and it's never a good sign when they agree on something.

LadyAlayne286: I don't know, being cutesy with his girlfriend

LadyAlayne286: maybe I'm jealous

Daeron_Dragonwolf: I get it

Daeron_Dragonwolf: my best friend just started dating someone, and they're so in love it's almost sickening. I'm at his grad party now, you'd think it's actually their engagement party with the way they're acting

LadyAlayne286: yes!

LadyAlayne286: like, stop rubbing your happiness in my very single face

LadyAlayne286: but also I guess I'm happy for him because he's my brother and I love him

Sansa looks back up at the party, scanning the crowd to see if anyone else is as annoyed with Robb as she and Arya are. Bran doesn't pay much attention to most things, and Rickon is only now discovering girls. Theon seems a bit put out by it, though. He doesn't like Robb's attention being pulled from him.

Her eyes find Jon, and she wonders how he feels. He's looking down at his phone in one hand, a beer held in the other. She wonders who he's texting, because she's pretty sure he broke up with the girlfriend he'd had since high school a few months ago. Does he get that jealous feeling in the pit of his stomach when he looks at Robb and Jeyne?

If he does, she can't tell, but then again, Jon's always been good at hiding his feelings.

...

Three years.

They've been doing this for three years, she should have seen it coming.

Daeron_Dragonwolf: did you wanna maybe meet up when you're in town?

When that message comes through, she agrees readily, even though she knows, on some base level, it's probably a terrible idea.

Neither of them tell the rest of the guild that they're planning to meet. She thinks Daeron knows that wouldn't go over well. As it is, they sometimes get flirty in the group chat and it's always met with protest, because what happens if something goes wrong? Then the group gets messed up.

Sansa doesn't care. She wants to meet Daeron.

She doesn't even care what he looks like. It's funny – whenever she thinks about him, she thinks about his avatar, or his discord profile picture. Obviously he isn't a cartoon medieval knight, but in her head he is. She can't even fathom what he might look like IRL.

It isn't until she's at the airport, waiting for her flight home for winter break, that she finally plucks up the courage to ask what neither of them have yet.

LadyAlayne286: how will I even know it's you?

Her heart races as she sees him start to type. Stop. Start.

And then a picture comes through that...

Everything around her seems to go dull and distant. All she can see is the selfie he sent, with the caption underneath: my name's Jon, by the way.

She stares that the picture for so long that she's startled out of her daze by her flight being called, and she closes out of discord, turns her phone on airplane mode, and puts it in her bag.

…

Robb picks her up at the airport.

Her older brother Robb.

Whose best friend is Jon Snow, who she has known practically her whole life.

…

By the time they reach home, she's come to the conclusion that Jon is not Daeron.

No.

Daeron has been playing with her this whole time. Daeron is some sort of elite hacker who figured out who she was IRL and went to her social media and picked out someone she knows. He's pretending to be Jon to ease her into meeting him. Clearly he's planning to kidnap and murder her.

Of course that's what happened. There's no way she's been talking to Jon Snow for three years and never realized it.

(Though he does like Star Wars, she remembers. And he graduated the same time as Daeron said he did. And he did live with his mom until recently, when he finally moved out on his own.)

…

Jon is around.

He always is – always has been.

But... when did he become handsome?

He isn't her type, really. His whole vibe is a bit rougher than she'd normally go for, but... his eyes are pretty. And so is his mouth. He fills out his holiday sweaters really well, and she starts to think there really is something to that dark and brooding trope.

When Jon was a teenager, he was so sullen and moody, but he got much better once he went to college. Except, at the Stark's annual holiday party, he seems like he's back to his teenage ways.

“What's wrong with Jon?” she asks Robb casually. Cool, calm, and collected. She doesn't actually care. She's just a concerned citizen.

“Some girl won't text him back,” Robb rolls his eyes.

Sansa's stomach lurches, and she excuses herself to the bathroom, where she pulls out her phone and opens discord for the first time since she stepped off the plane.

Daeron_Dragonwolf: how was your flight?

Daeron_Dragonwolf: are we still meeting up?

Daeron_Dragonwolf: if you don't want to, that's fine

Daeron_Dragonwolf: it's no big deal

Daeron_Dragonwolf: Alayne?

…

Sansa knows she shouldn't be here.

She walks into the holiday market in Wintertown Square, eyes scanning the crowd. She never answered Daeron, so maybe he won't show up, after all. Why would he? She ghosted him.

But there, sitting at a wooden table near the food stalls, is Jon Snow.

His phone is sitting on the table in front of him, next to the cup of hot chocolate he bought. His leg is bouncing beneath the table, fingers drumming on the the top.

Her stomach lurches again, and she knows she needs to make a choice.

Does she go home and open discord and tell Daeron she got cold feet? Or does she go up to Jon and tell him she's Alayne?

She wants to do the first, because she's a coward. If she leaves now, everything can go back to normal, and she can keep pretending Daeron and Jon are different people.

Instead, her feet move, and she weaves her way through the crowds and sits on the bench opposite Jon. He startles, but then relaxes when he sees that it's her.

“Sansa,” he says, turning off his phone screen quickly, but not quick enough that she doesn't recognize discord. Her phone hasn't gone off, so he hadn't sent her a message. He's just waiting, and that makes her ache. He looks around, then back at her, and says, “are you here alone?”

“You're alone,” she counters, because that's easier than the truth.

“I'm meeting someone,” he says, though his mouth twists into a frown. He doesn't actually think Alayne coming, and yet he still showed up.

“I'm meeting someone, too,” she says quietly, and his brows raise. Then she takes a deep, steadying breath and says, “hi. I'm Alayne.”

Jon stares at her for a beat too long, before his frown twists even further. “Did Robb put you up to this?” he says, shoulders bunching up defensively, face quickly reddening under his beard.

“What?”

“I never should have told him,” Jon grumbles, eyes darting around, looking at anything but her. “Tell Robb I say ha ha, very funny.”

There's an immediate rush of tears to her eyes, because... Because of course Jon doesn't believe her. He's supposed to be meeting a girl, one that he's been flirting with for a year, and she's just Sansa, Robb's stupid little sister.

Without another word, she stands from the table and sprints away from it. Jon calls after her, but she doesn't stop until she's back at her car, and then she pulls out her phone.

LadyAlayne286: you're a jerk, Jon Snow

…

Two days later, there's a knock on her door.

“Go away,” she grumbles, but it's muffled into her pillow and the knock comes again. “I said go away,” she calls, louder, rolling onto her back.

“Sansa,” she hears, and she bolts upright at the sound of Jon's voice. “Can we talk?”

“Go away,” she repeats for a third time, except this time it comes out a bit wobbly.

There's a sigh. She's heard that sigh before, too many times to count.

Because she's known Jon practically her whole life.

“Please?” His tone has taken on a pleading quality that tugs at her, but she makes herself sit silent. Another sigh. “If you don't open the door, I'm just gonna talk through it. Really loud, so everyone can hear.”

That makes her spring out of bed and she unlocks her door and cracks it open. “Go away.”

“Sans, please talk to me.”

“Don't worry, I'm not gonna quit the guild. I'll wait until you find a replacement for me, I won't leave you guys hanging.”

But she will leave. She thinks she might stop playing entirely.

She starts to shut the door, but his foot jams into the opening, which surprises her. Jon isn't pushy – in fact, she'd almost say he's a bit of a pushover. He tends to let Robb and Theon do whatever, and he goes along with it.

With an annoyed huff, she lets go of the door and backs away, and he follows her into the room, shutting it behind him.

“What do you want?” she asks with her arms folded across her chest.

“Why did you ghost me?”

That takes her aback, and she feels guilt pull at her. All she can do is shrug pathetically, which doesn't seem to satisfy him. “I was surprised, okay? I didn't know how to respond.”

“Well,” he says, “I was too.”

“But I didn't accuse you of... you really thought I'd do that?”

He sighs, and his shoulders slump a bit. “I told Robb about you – Alayne – and he gave me so much shit for it. Said I should try meeting a girl in real life.” Jon's face is red again, and Sansa decides she might slap Robb after all. He knows how much of an introvert Jon is, but sometimes he says things that are so inconsiderate, even if he doesn't necessarily mean them to be.

“I wouldn't do that.”

“I know,” he sighs, a hand coming up to scrub at his still-red face. “I know, I overreacted. I just couldn't wrap my head around...”

“Around me?”

“At first I couldn't... you're Robb's little sister and it's not like I don't know you're pretty-”

“You think I'm pretty?”

That gets her a scowl, which actually makes her smile.

“I didn't know if I could make myself feel what I felt for Alayne,” he says, and her smile fades. “But then I went back and reread a bunch of our old messages, and all the sudden, it was just... you. It was you telling me to not settle for that sales job, and you telling me I should get a dog, and you being so dead wrong about Star Wars-”

“Space is boring,” she whines.

“It's not bor- you know what? We're not doing this now. The thing is, you're my best friend's little sister, and you're in the guild, and I don't want to lose you. I don't want to ruin things because...”

Because he thinks she's pretty. Because he had feelings for Alayne.

“I know,” she says. “It's why I didn't know how to react to your photo. It was like, all the sudden, I was seeing you in a completely new way.” He nods, looking relieved that he's not alone. “So, I think we should test it.”

“Test it?”

“We should kiss. If there's nothing there, then we go back to normal. No harm, no foul.”

There's hesitance in his eyes, but his tongue darts out to wet his lips and a thrill goes through her. “Yeah, alright,” he says, voice lower now.

She takes a step forward and stands on her toes and wraps her arms around his neck and she presses her lips to his. She means it to be just that, but she can't quite make herself pull away. His lips are so soft and those butterflies in her tummy are swirling all over the place, and then his arm loops around her back and he pulls her closer and his head tilts as he deepens the kiss and Sansa knows there's no going back. They've ruined everything, they can't take this back.

They kiss until she needs to pull back for air, and as she's panting for breath, he's doing the same. Then his lips pull into a half-smile and he says, “so. Did we pass the test?”

“With flying colors,” she grins, and his arms tighten around her waist. Then her eyes widen and she pulls back slightly to see him better and says, “Daeron? How did I not put that together!”

Back when they were kids, back when they played come into my castle and monsters and maidens, Jon would always proclaim himself Daeron the Young Dragon.

Jon scowls at her again and tries to pull out of her arms, but she keeps them locked around his neck as she starts to giggle.

“Don't act like you aren't into it,” he grumbles.

Dragons and knights and elves and dwarves... and him.

“I'm very into it,” she grins, and leans back in for another kiss.

#jonsa #jonsa fic #prompt fic

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sugarprincessbitch · 2 years ago

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Hi! I'm not sure if you're taking asks still but I was rewatching GOT recently and I had the idea of a bastard son of Tyrion's who falls head over heels for Sansa during her time in King's Landing and protects her from his asshole of a cousin ❤️

Ohh I like this idea, welp here is what I think the whole dynamic will go.

- Whe know that Tyrion didn't have any wife along the tv series and the books, so I will guess this child is the product of adultery, in short terms he is a bastard.

- Tyrion was not a very liked character by his family and people alike because of his condition, so this child will not be very like by the people in general and will grow without the love of anyone basically, his only support will be his father.

- If he is a bastard, he will be treat very badly and not taken seriously at all, I think that Tywin will try to separate him from his father by not telling Tyrion that he had a son, so I think that this child will live with his mother until older Tyrion (maybe at the first season or second) found the truth and against his father wishes will take him with him to live in the court.

- This son of his will live in court but I don't think he will have the same commodities as his father or his "family" if we could call it that, and maybe he will pass as a personal servant for Tyrion or a squire. If I go far with the idea of him being a squire I think that Jaime will help him with practice and take him under his wing.

- He will have a crush for Sansa since going to winterfell (Jaime convince Cersei in taking him along) and will be jealous of Joffrey because of how enchanted is Sansa with him. He is very beautiful and noble like the knights in the tales Sansa read, but she doesn't talk to him because of her stigma with Bastards (she will treat him similar to Jon).

- When the disaster happened in Kings landing and Sansa is being tortured by Joffrey, he will be the one that from the start will defend Sansa and treat her with respect, so this will influence in Sansa's behavior to him, being rapidly enamoured by this idea of a lady and his knight (believing him being her hero in white armor).

- They will start a secret relationship built in illusion and love (sort the type of Romeo and Juliet romance). Tyrion will rapidly know the secret affair and give his approval to his son, supporting him in his love for Sansa (this will built an early closer relationship between Sansa and Tyrion).

- I think he will be the one to help Sansa scaped from Kings landing (maybe during Stannis attack) and will try to take her to winterfell disguise as peasants (i will asume that he will not tell his father of his plans, because Tyrion is not only occupied in fighting on the fields but also is still with the idea of supporting his family because they are his blood).

I hope you like it! This is my first ask so I don't know how well it is hehe, if someone has questions or things that you want to discuss with me, don't be shy and ask me!!

Love you, sugar💞🍬

#tyrion lannister #ask response #asioaf #game of thrones #house lannister #oc insert #fanfic #game of thrones universe #ice and fire books #wanna talk?#reader x sansa stark #y/n #Game of thrones x reader #oc x canon

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justadram · 2 years ago

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How will Theon react to Jon and Sansa marrying? Will he make a scene at the wedding feast? Or might he try to get between them once they have married or possibly try to have Jon sleep with other women, so as to create further issues between Jon and Sansa?

possibly try to have Jon sleep with other women 😬 daaaamn, anon, lol. You’re here for the drama!

Jon doesn’t even want to talk to Theon. I don’t think they’ll be hitting up the whore houses together. Or you know, whatever, lol. But Theon’s gonna have issues with it, while also still very much being observed by the very people he’s so desperate to please. That’s a check on his worst impulses. Unless they’re not watching. 🫣

Theon’s book canon passing thoughts of Sansa must stem from his desire to be good enough, accepted, a Stark—whatever you want to call it. And that’s certainly at play here. But! They’ve also had a lot more time together and she’s grown. They have a more evolved relationship. So, if it started as, I could marry Ned’s daughter, it’s beyond that at this point.

book!Theon “jumps” at the chance to play hero with Jeyne. And yeah, I know he’s tortured canonically before he does the decent thing, but I hate GRRMs torture/redemption kink, so I think in this world, he already would probably balk at actively working to make Sansa unhappy. There are better ways to play the hero. 😉

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kellyvela · 2 years ago

Text

I posted 1,954 times in 2022

That's 36 more posts than 2021!

782 posts created (40%)

1,172 posts reblogged (60%)

Blogs I reblogged the most:

@butterflies-dragons

@powderpowderblue

@kellyvela

@kitnjon

@alicenthightcwer

I tagged 931 of my posts in 2022

#anon asks - 545 posts

#sansa stark - 203 posts

#asoiaf - 178 posts

#jonsa - 162 posts

#grrm - 156 posts

#targies show - 142 posts

#asks - 63 posts

#game of thrones - 61 posts

#jon snow - 40 posts

#lol - 37 posts

Longest Tag: 137 characters

#que alguien te diga que por ti - influenciada por ti y por las cosas que tú escribes - decidió leer cinco libros enormes... qué maravilla

My Top Posts in 2022:

If anyone can find that quote from Kit about wanting to work with Sophie again I know you would be the one to find it! Put that quote out there in the universe now that we’ve gotten a possible Jon Snow sequel. Pleasepleaseplease!

You know, I’d love to work with Sophie [Turner] on something, but are people only going to see Jon and Sansa? It’s gonna be hard to get away from that.

—Kit Harington

298 notes - Posted June 17, 2022

So, I don't know about you, but that *targ prophecy* made my day.

I mean, they are no special for dreaming about a future cataclysm, that happened before with Daenys the Dreamer, and they just ran away from their country to settle in Dragonstone. They saved themselves and no one else.

But since they thought themselves special and above ordinary men and closer to gods, they believe they dreamed about the Long Night because they were destined to be the heroes and saviors. "If there is an Ice threat, we will defeated it because we are Fire" or something like that....

But also, the Last Hero and the Children of the Forest are right there!!! They are *legends* from 8000 years ago or even before. And we all know about that from Bran Stark's chapters.

The *ordinary* men of Westeros defeated the Long Night in ancient times and they did that without any *special* Targaryen or dragon.

So a dream of Aegon just from 300 years ago, it's nothing but a new warning, a warning that they keep to themselves, because *of course* they needed to be the only heroes.

In contrast, "Winter is Coming" is right there!!! Right in the open as a perpetual warning, as is the fucking Wall that was built by Brandon the Builder, and not a secret of a single family that believe themselves the grand heroes, and did almost nothing to prevent the future extinction. Instead of that, during their certainly short reign, they conquered, killed and burned the realms of men or simply killed each other and their dragons for an ugly chair, made from the weapons of all their killed enemies...

They really dreamed about one threat and thought themselves the saviors when in reality they were the second threat.

A Song of Ice and Fire always meant a clash, not some romance.

And even in the show(s) canon, they showed a Stark, a Lord of Winterfell, in the middle of a targ king passing the secret to his heir, and we watch said king talking about unifying the kingdom and touching certain dagger.

Well, Jon Snow did that, he started to spread the word about the Ice threat and asked help of all the Houses of Westeros, friends or foes.

And that dagger was the one they tried to kill Bran with, the same dagger that Arya Stark stuck in the Night King's heart.

And please let's not forget about what George always say, prophecies are dangerous and misleading.

Having said that, I wish you all a nice Sunday!

343 notes - Posted August 21, 2022

the only true born male targies and the rightful heirs

344 notes - Posted October 4, 2022

345 notes - Posted May 25, 2022

My #1 post of 2022

So the prophecy...

Aegon foresaw the end of the world of men. 'Tis to begin with a terrible winter gusting out of the distant north.

[I, Rickon Stark, Lord of Winterfell….]

Aegon saw absolute darkness riding on those winds. And whatever dwells within will destroy the world of the living.

When this Great Winter comes, Rhaenyra, all of Westeros must stand against it. And if the world of the men is to survive, a Targaryen must be seated on the Iron Throne. A king or queen strong enough to unite the realm against the cold and the dark.

Aegon called this dream "The Song of Ice and Fire". This secret it's been passed from king to heir since Aegon's time. And now you must promise to carry it and protect it.

...

I can't with the mention of a Lord of Winterfell in the middle of all that...

AND THE DAGGER!!!!!!!!!!

1,123 notes - Posted August 21, 2022

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#tumblr2022 #year in review #my 2022 tumblr year in review #your tumblr year in review

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rainwingmarvel7 · 4 months ago

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Fic authors self rec! When you get this, reply with your favourite five fics that you've written, then pass on to at least five other writers (if you feel like it, no pressure) Spread the self-love 💖

Thank you so much for the ask!💖💖💖

Admittedly most of my favorite fics haven’t been posted but here we go:

The Rise of the Final Order - The second installment of my post-sequel movies Star Wars series. Kylo Ren/Ben Solo x OC and General Hux x OC, among others. This series has been my baby ever since I started it after watching Rise of Skywalker, and even though I’m currently rewriting it, I’m still really proud of it. The Rise of the Final Order is one of my first fics that doesn’t take place within a show/movie timeline, so I’m really proud of it

Game of Thrones Collab Fic - The GoT fic I wrote with my friend this past year and a half. We filled an entire Google doc and had plans to fill another. By the time we stopped writing it we had written over 120 chapters. It’s also where Nadya’s story originally started.

As The Raven Flies - My lovely GoT fic that I have only just started but am so in love with. The main pairings are Robb Stark x OC, Jon Snow x OC, Daenerys Targaryen x OC, Sansa Stark x OC, and Arya Stark x OC. I plan on posting the first chapter very soon, and I can’t wait to share it!

Holding Out For A Hero - My Stranger Things fic that I started writing a few years ago after Season 4. It’s a Steve Harrington x OC fic with minor Jonathan Byers x OC. It was my first experience writing an outlined fic, and I’ve learned a lot about my writing style working on it.

Teenage Wasteland (My Ordinary Life) - My Loki show fic centered around the son of Loki and my OC. It’s meant to set up his character to later join my larger series. I’m really proud of the dynamics I was able to create within the fic, especially between the main OC and Mobius, Loki, and Ravonna. Plus, it’s a lot of fun to play around with the multiverse. This fic really helped me to develop my writing and pushed me to think outside the box.

#💕💕💕

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the-king-andthe-lionheart · 2 years ago

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People who think like that in the comments above have no reading comprehension, have no grasp on how writing works, and has obviously never read Arya’s chapters in any more depth than a shallow skim. Like you are telling me that Arya, GRRM’s second favorite character besides Dany, the female character with the most chapters, the only main character who has been in every book, is going to become irrelevant? That her narrative purpose ends in Braavos with the Faceless Men? For one, that’s not how stories are written. You don’t just stop a character in the middle of their hero’s/heroine’s journey. Arya is in her training montage, just like Sansa, yet no one says that Sansa is going to stay in the Vale blissfully unaware of everything happening around her. So why does Arya get this treatment? Misogyny, plain and simple. And how is Arya any different from the men in this world who have been killing since they were children as well? Just as Sandor said, everyone is a killer. Like children are legitimately being sent to war. Arya only protected herself from the stableboy, and then Arya was thrust into battle a handful of chapters later. She was forced into becoming a child soldier.

This also lacks awareness of actual canon. Arya CAN’T go after anyone she knows. If she knows the name of someone she’s met, she can’t be sent after them by the Faceless Men. It’s against the rules. So how is she supposed to go after Jon or Sansa or Bran? She couldn’t even be sent out on a mission to assassinate Cersei, even if she wanted to. And that’s because she has met Cersei and knows her name. She also couldn’t go after anyone on her list for that matter if she stayed with the FM. And the idea that they would even send an acolyte who keeps breaking the rules, out anywhere other than Braavos to fulfill an assassination is fucking laughable. Please people, if you are going to make theories, actually pay attention to the damn plot.

Arya is also one of the most compassionate characters in this series. Way more empathetic and compassionate than characters like narcissistic Sansa. And anyone who thinks Arya can’t function because she’s “too far gone” is an illiterate idiot who is obviously biased. Arya has only ever killed when her life was either in danger or if she was faced with getting justice, whether it be northern justice or getting justice against evil men who are raping, torturing and killing other people. Arya is fully capable of functioning. She functioned with the Brotherhood Without Banners and she was fully functioning in society as Cat of the Canals. She had a job, a roof over her head, and made a ton of friends. How is that not functioning? Oh, because she got Northern Justice for a Night’s Watch deserter? You mean the same thing that Ned did dozens of times throughout the years and was still a functioning lord, husband, and father? It’s beyond ridiculous and full of misogyny and double standards. We are talking about the context of these books where EVERYONE has blood on their hands, even if metaphorically. Sansa has metaphorical blood on her hands so far. Catelyn has literal blood on her hands even before her death. Brienne has blood on her hands as well. As do ALL the male characters who don’t get this type of shit thrown at them. Like we are talking about a medieval inspired feudalistic society where the only justice you can get is by getting it for yourself. It’s the type of society where “eye for an eye” is the norm and punishments for things like oathbreaking have harsh consequences. That’s the norm. But apparently Arya isn’t included in the norm of the context of the books. Suddenly she is being held to our moral standards.

Anyone trying to claim that Arya gets some sort of pass, that she’s mostly beloved by the fandom, etc etc. is just lying. Arya is the second most hated character in this fandom after Dany. Anyone who has been in this fandom even for a short while knows how hated Arya is. You can’t even go into the comments or a forum even related to Arya without 25% or more of the comments saying shit like “Arya is a psychopath and too far gone”, “Arya can’t function in society”, “Arya is going to die”, “Arya can’t have peace unless she dies”, “Arya is going to die, go into Nymeria and Sansa is going to get Nymeria”, “Arya will only be happy having a second life in Nymeria”, “Arya has to go away and leave society”! And not only do these comments lack actual reading comprehension and storytelling knowledge, but they are misogynistic at their core. But what’s more is that every damn time someone even makes those comments, it’s riddled with ableism, and it’s disgusting. Those types of comments send a message to readers who suffer from trauma or depression or anxiety. It sends a message to people who actually have anti-social personality disorder who are functioning members of society who haven’t physically hurt anyone. And that message tells us that we are too far gone, that we don’t belong in society, and we are better off dead. So yeah, comments like that definitely resonate in me a lot and hits a lot more personally than anything that has to do with me defending a fictional character. It’s disgusting and I spit on all of them.

People love to pretend that Arya gets some kind of special treatment from fandom when a majority of the discussions surrounding her are that she's too damaged to fit into society, she's a psychopath, and that her having a happy ending is impossible. Anytime her actual fans write canon correct meta and theories for her that are different from her fanon/show characterization, we get called delusional. But sure, Arya doesn't face misogyny or get hate from fandom because she picks up a sword.

I would like to show you something, anon. And please keep in mind, all of these are from the same post on reddit.

Arya doesn't get special treatment. Anyone who thinks that she does are delusional. Arya fans are railing against people like these folks who believe this stupidity.

#arya stark #asoiaf

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thelegendofclarke · 7 years ago

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In Roman mythology Janus stands for doors, beginnings, winter, journey etc. He's also double faced (Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, "I hope the Others get him." The king had not been pleased)Janos is singularly important in Sansa&Jon's arcs He also connects them narrativly Since JonSa have a lot of parallels (arc&also personality wise) can you talk a bit Janus symbolism& what Janos Slynt mean for Jon/Sansa 1/2

2/2 Hope I made some sense (Please feel free to put on the shipper goggles) Plz give Napa a hug from me. I love your blog btw

Hey Anonny! That is so sweet, I am so flattered you like my little trash compactor of a blog :)

Ok so I ~might~ be on a bit of a different page than you with this. I definitely agree that the Janos/Janus connection and the symbolism associated with the god Janus is present in Jon’s arc. I also agree that Janos Slynt connects Jon and Sansa’s arcs (“Edd fetch me a block” makes me ~swoon~ every gd time lol). However, I don’t necessarily think that those two things are related or connected in any way, if that makes sense?

I’m going to attempt to explain myself, so hopefully it will…

Janos Slynt/Janus and Jon Snow

So yeah, it’s like you were saying, Janus in Roman mythology is a two-faced god. Here’s what he looks like for anyone who is wondering…

Janus is the god of beginnings and transitions, gates, doors, doorways, endings, and time. He is a two-faced god because he is supposed to be looking to the future and the past. I think Janus symbolism and Janos Slynt’s execution are really important because of when and how they occur in Jon’s arc:

Janos Slynt’s execution is the in same chapter as Maester Aemon’s famous line to Jon, “kill the boy and let the man be born.”

Janos Slynt’s execution is Jon’s first execution and his first major act as Lord Commander.

“You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.“ — Maester Aemon in ADwD (Jon II)

“Kill the boy and let the man be born” kind of becomes Jon Snow’s ~mantra~ for a while after this. To me this was always the beginning of Jon Snow’s transition from a boy to a man and being Lord Commander. It seems like the beginning of a new chapter in his life. So the transition and beginnings symbolism associated with Janus makes a lot of sense here. It’s like the two-faced god is looking backward at Jon’s past and forward at his future.

I suppose there could be a similar theme in Sansa’s arc associated with Janos Slynt and Ilyn Payne beheading Ned. Her father’s death marked the clear and tragic end of Sansa’s life as she knew it, and (understandably) lead to a great deal of disillusionment:

“Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted her his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father’s head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.” — Sansa, ACoK

So I guess you could say that Janos Slynt was also associated with the end of Sansa’s childhood and one chapter of her life. But I think that connection and symbolism is much more prevalent within Jon’s arc in relation to Janos.

Janos Slynt and Jon/Sansa

So here are those two passages that send every Jon/Sansa shippers’ heart ~*a flutter*~

Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes… — Sansa VI, AGoT

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.” “Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw. — Jon II, ADwD

We already knew Jon was a hero. But here specifically, I think that this means he could be Sansa’s hero; and this is significant because Sansa no longer believes in heroes. First, Sansa has pretty much completely abandoned her beliefs in the Knights and Heroes in the songs and fairy tales of her youth, the type of knights and heroes men like Joffrey, Loras Tyrell, and Jaime Lannister were supposed to be. Secondly, her new view on what would be a “heroic act” is nothing like the jousting, hand kissing and flower tossing she used to be charmed by. In fact, her new ideas on what would be a heroic act are far more violent and gruesome, and actually pretty distinctly Northern.

Compare Sansa’s thoughts:

“Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head.” — Sansa VI, AGoT

to this line by Ned:

“Yet our way is the older way…we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.” — Ned Stark in AGoT (Bran I)

Ned’s beliefs in justice the “old way”/the Northern way are carried on by Robb:

Robb took the poleaxe from his hand and ordered him to step aside. “This is my work,” he said. “He dies at my word. He must die by my hand.”…“Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold.” Robb lifted the heavy axe with both hands. “Here in sight of gods and men, I judge you guilty of murder and high treason. In mine own name I condemn you. With mine own hand I take your life. Would you speak a final word?” “Kill me, and be cursed. You are no king of mine.” The axe crashed down. Heavy and well-honed, it killed at a single blow, but it took three to sever the man’s head from his body, and by the time it was done both living and dead were drenched in blood. Robb flung the poleaxe down in disgust, and turned wordless to the heart tree. He stood shaking with his hands half-clenched and the rain running down his cheeks. Gods forgive him, Catelyn prayed in silence. He is only a boy, and he had no other choice. —AGoT, Catelyn III

And then, instead of hanging Slynt like he had originally intended, Jon Snow does pretty much exactly what Sansa wished some hero would do:

If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him? “—and hang him,” Jon finished.…This is wrong, Jon thought. “Stop.” Emmett turned back, frowning. “My lord?” “I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.” “Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out.The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw.…“This will go easier if you stay still,” Jon Snow promised him. “Move to avoid the cut, and you will still die, but your dying will be uglier. Stretch out your neck, my lord.” The pale morning sunlight ran up and down his blade as Jon clasped the hilt of the bastard sword with both hands and raised it high. “If you have any last words, now is the time to speak them,” he said, expecting one last curse. Janos Slynt twisted his neck around to stare up at him. “Please, my lord. Mercy. I’ll … I’ll go, I will, I …” No, thought Jon. You closed that door. Longclaw descended. — Jon II, ADwD

I’m not saying that this necessarily must have romantic significance, but I really do think it’s significant. Sansa has been pretty violently disabused of all of her romantic notions and beliefs that there are Heroes or Good Men left in this world. In some cases they were quite literally beaten out of her… Jon specifically did what Sansa wished and hoped a Hero and a Good Man would do. And he is the only character in the series that will have done that heroic act.

Jon Snow is “some hero.”

It honestly kind of reminds me of Sophie Turner’s quote about how in GoT S7 Jon will “restore Sansa’s faith in men.” If Sansa ever learns about how Jon beheaded Janos Slynt, it could help her believe in heroes again.

#warning: speculation and canon stuff below the cut! for anyone whose jam that is not!#asoiaf for ts #got for ts #jon x sansa #jonsa #also JON IS SANSA'S HERO PASS IT ON!!!#jon snow #sansa stark #janos slynt #janus #parallels #alys answers #long post #anonymous #foreshadowing #alys meta

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leesielex · 2 years ago

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A mother of two who expects a sheltered 11 year old who wants to see the good in others to think like a grown adult?

I know this is in response to my Sansa post. So let me gladly explain. I’m not talking about an 11 year old who wants to see the good in people. I have two children. One who is mature for her age and one who is immature. My youngest is now 11. And both my kids would have never done what Sansa had. They are much more like Arya than Sansa to be sure because they would never lie over something so horrible. You seem to be putting your own head canon into this that Sansa wants to see the good in people and that’s it. Period. And she gets burned for that alone. That’s just part of the story. She also sees the worst in her own sister, whom she has bullied for not being a traditional lady. She also saw with her own eyes who Joffrey and Cersei were, and still lies to take their side over her own sister. No my oldest would protect my youngest at all costs, and would never lie to protect someone else, not even a boy she thought she loved. My youngest wouldn’t lie in such a situation either. Even after Cersei kills lady, she never takes responsibility for her part, doesn’t blame Cersei since she still trusts her and goes to her resulting in Ned’s arrest and eventually executed, instead she falsely blames Arya for Lady’s death. Not herself for lying, not Joffrey for instigating it all, and not Cersei for demanding Lady’s head though the wolf was innocent. She never cares for the innocent boy murdered for Joffrey’s actions. But even then, while I can not condone Sansa’s actions, nor will I gloss over them, her parents are largely to blame for letting her fill her head with fantasies and not raising her better, other than to be a good wife and have sons, and letting her keep this animosity for Arya. They kept her naive and sheltered, but how long are they to blame?

You seem to think Sansa stays the naive 11 year old. But in the WOW released Alayne chapter she is the same age Dany was when she married drogo and hatched dragons, the same chapters people judge Dany harshly for every thought and action claiming she is a master and evil, despite GRRM denying this and very much showing she is one of the heroes in the books. How is it right to judge Dany so harshly but Sansa gets a free pass at the same age after she has experience after experience proving to her not to trust these people? And those same people defending Sansa also blame and judge a 9-11 year old Arya just as badly as they do Dany. No, I don’t blame or judge Sansa in the first few chapters of the first book when she is naive and seeing the good in people from her sheltered upbringing, I rightly define her character based on chapter after chapter over years of several books that she still is more interested in marrying well than her own family’s lives and wellbeing.

Despite knowing nothing of Harry Hardyng besides he is good looking and the heir if Sweetrobin dies, she still thinks that she hopes Robin Arryn had enough of the POISON that is slowly killing him so he won’t make a scene when she dances with Harry to gain his affection to hopefully seal the marriage pact. She says this even after Robin says he knows Harry wants him to die so he can take his title as Lord of the Eyrie and Warden of Vale. He is correct, and even after she has taken care of her cousin and sees he is being slowly poisoned, she cares only for her own marriage to a handsome man and his title. After all she saw and suffered in King’s Landing, she has learned nothing. If she has learned anything it seems it will be to be more like Cersei and Littlefinger. I enjoy Sansa POV chapters very much, and I do not dislike her character, I do dislike many peoples inability to see her for the grey character she is and the possible darker turn she will take. I dislike her, and those who Stan her’s, inability to take any responsibility for her own actions.

Which is why I love Jon and Dany as characters, as in the books they are constantly measuring their actions and thoughts and trying to be better no matter how many times they fail. They take accountability when they screw up and take steps to rectify it. They actually grow and learn and are building. They are just as grey as every character, but they want to do better, where Sansa does and thinks very little about helping anyone but herself. Her thoughts are most entirely self-centered, even wishing her best friend Jeyne would stop crying because it was annoying after Jeyne had just witnessed northmen dying, including Jeyne’s father we learn, and during this time Sansa is not mostly concerned of her father, her sister, the northmen, she is concerned for her marriage to Joffrey. She doesn’t gain the self-realization she brought this on as well by trusting Cersei (though I agree Ned is mostly to blame, and Catelyn is not blameless, both more so than 11 year old Sansa) but she seems to never gain the insight to see how her selfish and naive actions affected anyone and she certainly doesn’t fix this defect within herself as we see her making the same mistake in WOW Alayne chapter.

Me being a mother of two only shows me to judge her parents for raising her so poorly and never teaching her properly how the outside world is and that family sticks together, though it seems to me Ned tried, that is literally the saying of the pack survives, but Sansa is so self centered she only wants her family if they act how she wants them to. She doesn’t want the sister she has because she doesn’t accept her for who she is. Catelyn’s doing I would say. but as a mother I also know not to shirk and dismiss a child’s responsibility for their own actions or they will never learn, and that is why Sansa is still the same 11 year old girl years later still caring more about marrying Harry than her own cousin. She has never had that moment of someone talking to her to see the error of her ways, and she has never realized her own mistakes or accountability. And that is why I don’t Stan Sansa. I can appreciate her character as it is without dismissing the wrong she does and raising her onto a pedestal.

#anon ask #asoiaf #Sansa fans never hold her to the expectations as every other character #anti Sansa #but not really #Sansa Stans ruined my appreciation for her character

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reginarubie · 3 years ago

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I think Sansa and Dany hearing wolf howl is not about Jon's death. Sansa(Alayne) hearing wind howling like a big ghost while helping her cousin is more about her meeting with Jon and maybe helping him. Dany thinking of betrayals and hearing a wolf howl yet feel sad and hungry is more about her betrayal and death. As stumpy mentioned in her posts wolf howling is generally implying doom. Also Jon is still in Ghost and can be resurrected.

Hello anon!

Well, you do make a good point, both instances refer to Jon/House Stark, and both (in the context they are made) hint toward their relationship with the man/House in question.

Might it be they feel Jon's death, might be that what they are doing as they hear this wolf howl hints toward their future paths.

As you said Sansa (posing as Alayne Stone and styling her persona after her bastard half-brother, just saying) is helping her cousin Robert descend the Eyrie on a dangerous path taking him by the hand and guiding him to safety.

The moment, precisely is this (after Alayne/Sansa convinces Robert to brave the descent speaking to him of valiant knights to give him courage, coming to also give him strength by telling him, his presence makes her feel safer and less scared, which is a lie, but a lie she tells to help him through it — kind of remind me of Jon and his heroes when he was a child and he subconsciously styling himself and acting as maybe they'd have, but I digress):

"Ser Sweetrobin," Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

And then they were on the other side, and Mya Stone was laughing and lifting Robert for a hug. "Be careful," Alayne told her. "He can hurt you, flailing. You wouldn't think so, but he can." They found a place for him, a cleft in the rock to keep him out of the cold wind. Alayne tended him until the shaking passed, whilst Mya went back to help the others cross.

�� Alayne II, AFFC

Instead, for Daenerys the situation is different. She is thinking of betrayals when she hears the howling and thinks of the wolf and it doesn't bode well for her, also because of another couple of lines that intersects with this one, but let's first contextualise the moment she hears the wolf:

As the world darkened, Dany settled in and closed her eyes, but sleep refused to come. The night was cold, the ground hard, her belly empty. She found herself thinking of Meereen, of Daario, her love, and Hizdahr, her husband, of Irri and Jhiqui and sweet Missandei, Ser Barristan and Reznak and Skahaz Shavepate. Do they fear me dead? I flew off on a dragon's back. Will they think he ate me? She wondered if Hizdahr was still king. His crown had come from her, could he hold it in her absence? He wanted Drogon dead. I heard him. "Kill it," he screamed, "kill the beast," and the look upon his face was lustful. And Strong Belwas had been on his knees, heaving and shuddering. Poison. It had to be poison. The honeyed locusts. Hizdahr urged them on me, but Belwas ate them all. She had made Hizdahr her king, taken him into her bed, opened the fighting pits for him, he had no reason to want her dead. Yet who else could it have been? Reznak, her perfumed seneschal? The Yunkai'i? The Sons of the Harpy?

Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep.

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

— Daenerys X, ADWD

The howling itself is a bad omen, usually. Though it may depend on the character.

The Starks' sigil is the direwolf, they recognise themselves as wolves and they're entire identity is based upon that; why, they consider each other pack. So, to a Stark (a literal wolf) the howling may have a meaning than to another characters.

Why do wolves howl?

The wolves howl to communicate with each other, especially when they are at great distance from each other, they do to communicate where they are, if there is a danger or if there is a prey which is why to a wolf, howling is a good sign, it means the others of the pack are alive, they are safe and that they are communicating something. To another?, a prey or an enemy? It means they are coming, and it's not just one, it's more than one. They are organising, they're coming for you.

Reminds you of anything?, it does to me:

He grabbed the little girl by the hand and pulled her close. "What if the wolves come?"

"Yield," Arya suggested.

— Arya V, ACOK

The howl generally precedes doom.

But, the Starks associate wolves with safety, with belonging and with pack. Why, Sansa is called wolf girl (might I add she's the first of the new generation of the Starks to be associated with their sigil?) in Sansa I, AGOT; just before she proves to be her father's daughter— I'm sorry, I know this is not pertaining this ask but as I was re-reading to reply it just stuck out to me and I had to add it.

I'm petty toward anyone who claim Sansa is not a Stark, deal with it. └( ▼ ▼ )┐

So to me, her quote always gave me the same vibe of the song Flares by The Script.

Also, this is the ONLY quote which is CLEARLY meant for Jon between the two quotes. Why?, because what is the name of Jon's direwolf? (and we know the names given to the direwolves are extremely important plot-wise for their master) Ghost. And where is Jon right now? "Dead" living vicariously by warging into Ghost — you know...kind of like a ghost? And what does Sansa hear? A ghost wolf as big as mountains. Like c'mon, can the author make it more clear that this is about Jon and Sansa?, sharing a bond because they are pack?, no matter how far away they are from each other (and I mean not only by physical distance, but also by emotional distance?, actually emotionally they're not so distant, they just don't know how close they are...but they will learn it).

Actually that's exactly the point: Sansa is helping her cousin she takes him by the hand (*cough cough* the bride is handed to the groom *cough cough*) then she tends to him until his shakes passes; it seems to me that it foreshadows Sansa finding Jon in a clear fit after he returns from his "death" and warging in Ghost and she will tend him back to normality/life (or as normal as he will be after being resurrected)... sing him back to life (you know since her other cousin is comforted and calmed by music when he has his fits?).

Together she and her cousin face the perilous journey ahead (empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle— sounds like winter to me; wait *le gasp!* it is actually winter) and hand-in-hand they cross to the other side, where they are safe (back home in Winterfell and the North). That's to me what that passage is hinting at.

Which is exactly what you say:

it hints clearly to Jon (a ghost wolf as big as mountains — Jon is right now warging into his wolf, Ghost, and will return to life — kind of like a ghost — and *le gasp part II* he was born at the Tower of Joy nestled between the mountains of Dorne)

Sansa is helping her cousin (another hint toward Jon) working as a team with him, guiding him, giving him strength and (hinting at one day feeling safe with another cousin who will keep her safe — «Jon is Jon. He's my brother, he'll keep me safe. I trust him.» there's a reason they had her show version tell this to Brienne «You know I do» (have faith in you).

She manages to get to the other side, so to face adversities and manage to get to safety (the adversity being winter and in winter House Stark lives by solidarity between its members, between the pack, the pack must be together during winter to endure it and reach spring: might be why she hears the howl calling her home and to her pack? possible.)

In conclusion: it hints to her reuniting with Jon, possibly helping him through his return from the death (taking him by the hand and tending to him) and walking to him through adversity and back on the safe side.

For Daenerys, howls and wolves are a big NONO. And the instance in which she hears this howl forward this feeling that it's not going to bode well for her meeting wolves.

An hour later, her stomach began to cramp so badly that she could not go on. She spent the rest of that day retching up green slime. If I stay here, I will die. I may be dying now. Would the horse god of the Dothraki part the grass and claim her for his starry khalasar, so she might ride the nightlands with Khal Drogo? In Westeros the dead of House Targaryen were given to the flames, but who would light her pyre here? My flesh will feed the wolves and carrion crows, she thought sadly, and worms will burrow through my womb. Her eyes went back to Dragonstone. It looked smaller. She could see smoke rising from its wind-carved summit, miles away. Drogon has returned from hunting.

— Daenerys X, ADWD

Does not bode well at all for her. At all.

First of all, there is no clear hint at Jon, the hint about the wolf might be only toward House Stark in general and any other Stark (Sansa or Arya for example as Martin is writing Sansa as her ruling counterpart and rival or Arya who is spending time in Braavos with a guild of assassins who hates dragons and Targaryens and who has a bad relationship with the destruction fire brings with itself; even Bran, as we know he will sit where she hopes to rule, as the endgame is Bran as king of the six kingdoms) or simply it hints to House Stark which will rise from the ashes she will leave behind from "her" funeral pyre. If Daenerys dies in a fire (which is probable, after all Martin himself has said that Dany is not immune to fire, and that what happened was nothing short of magical — blood magic involved as I said in that series of posts and asks — and her hands are burned when she is on the run with Drogon and eating from his hunt) or dies after having burned KL, KL will be her funeral pyre (metaphorical) and on the ashes she will leave behind, we know the Starks will rise: Bran as king of the six kingdoms, Sansa as Queen in the North, Jon with a certainty of his identity returning where he belongs (North; I maintain that that "tell me again in ten years" couple with the crypt trailer which show both Arya and Jon and Sansa entombed in the crypts of Winterfell hint toward a time-set penalty for him which he will live out to return to Winterfell, home) and Arya exploring as she wanted to, only to then return home (as hinted by the above mentioned).

What more, she looks at Dragonstone (that if Jon is legitimate as the show told us, is actually HIS seat) and its peak (again mountain and Jon was born between the Mountains of Dorne, so this is hinting at him and his heritage) fuming (again smoke which is associated with death and the funeral pyre) — hmm...Jon, Jon I don't want ya to end up a kinslayer, even if it makes sense with your character if she threatens your family.

Especially because in her dream the "stars" supposedly tell her a secret, which is more of a warning in my opinion:«To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.» so this sounds like a warning for her: look back or you will be lost. But what does Daenerys think about looking back?

If I look back I'm lost.

And it's not even a one-time occurrence either. It's her default mode, again, caused by her trauma. It's a survivor instinct, keep running, keep looking ahead, because if you look back you have to face the consequences of your decisions and she cannot do that, she needs not to look back to dissociate herself, her goal and her methods from the ruin they bring.

The first time it happens after she loses Rhaego:

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost.

— Daenerys IX, AGOT

Then, it happens again time and time again; when she learns of the fate of Eroeh, which she has provoked. She cannot look back, because if she does she has to accept that she has provoked it and that she's as responsible for it as Mago and Ko Jhaqo.

"It was her fate, Khaleesi," said Aggo.

If I look back I am lost."It was a cruel fate," Dany said.

— Daenerys IX, AGOT

She cannot look back, because if she does she has to face her own guilt and she doesn't want to.

"It was wrong of them to burn my temple," the heavy, flat-nosed woman said placidly. "That angered the Great Shepherd."

"This was no god's work," Dany said coldly. If I look back I am lost. "You cheated me. You murdered my child within me."

— Daenerys IX, AGOT

She continues repeating it even as she kills Drogo:

Inside the tent Dany found a cushion, soft silk stuffed with feathers. She clutched it to her breasts as she walked back out to Drogo, to her sun-and-stars. If I look back I am lost. It hurt even to walk, and she wanted to sleep, to sleep and not to dream.

She knelt, kissed Drogo on the lips, and pressed the cushion down across his face.

— Daenerys IX, AGOT

It's a mantra, it's her life choice. What is back of her, her responsibility scares her, so she looks only forward. And it is a pattern, she thinks it when she creates her khalasar before entire the pyre (again mention of death, her death and the blood rite, and the smoke and the fire) in Daenerys X, AGOT; she thinks of it when she enters Astapor to buy the Unsullied (also because if she looks back she sees her following — people who stood by her through thick and thin — and think it insignificant) in Daenerys III, ASOS; she thinks it again and again, every time she is faced with a choice she refuses to look back, to acknowledge her errors and learn, she just looks forward. As long as she survives she has won, no matter the ruin she has left behind. She justifies the blood on her hand and does not look back (ADWD, Daenerys VII); every time events should spurn her to look back she refuses because if she does she's lost. Because to survive she has to keep walking (Daenerys X, ADWD) and if she looks back she doesn't walk and she is lost. At last when she embraces the dragon (while on the run with Drogon) she sets on her decision to not look back (Daenerys X, ADWD). To me this foreshadows that she will keep looking forward and the moment she looks back (like they framed it in the show: when she is touching the Iron throne and looks back beyond her shoulder to Jon who will kill her) is the moment she's lost, might be she will realise the destruction she has brought and what she has become, just before dying (a depth the show failed to deliver to us, probably also because of the shortness of the last season coupled with the lack of the inner dialogue from the characters).

In conclusion I think that the quote from Alayne II, AFFC is actually a clear hint at life (reaching beyond the difficulty to safety) hand-in-hand (working as a team; or as the Jonsa suppose, and it makes much sense, as a power/married couple) with Jon; while for Daenerys it foreshadows doom and House Stark rising from the ashes she will leave behind (her flesh feeding wolves and carrioning crows, with worms eating at her womb with the mention of smoke, associated with the pyre and death through all the text).

Again, this reply turned extremely long, meta-worthy for real and I thank you for you asks because it was extremely interesting to analyse and to reply to! Hope you enjoy the read and had a very nice day!

#ask the hag #anon asks #the ghost wolf howling #jonsa #sansa stark #life and death

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aegor-bamfsteel · 3 years ago

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Give me an exclusive aegor-bamfsteel prediction for TWOW/ADOS?

An exclusive prediction? With the amount of foreshadowing Jonsas have uncovered, I feel like there’s almost nothing new under the sun. Dark!Dæny, Sansa as the Girl in Gray who meets Jon at the Wall, and Bl00draven dying at the hands of Bran are predictions I support, but they’re hardly exclusive to me (even Bl00draven fans think a 125 year old man-tree hybrid is not long for this world). And most of the stuff I talk about regards events that have possibly already happened (ex: the Blackfyres and their enemies or potential descendants). Unless…

Elephants in ASOIAF seem like a vastly underdiscussed motif, but their relevance has only increased in ADWD. If Dragons are the foil yet the upgraded version of horses (as shown with Dæny comparing riding Drogon to riding her silver), then elephants occupy a middle space; the largest land animal (until the dragons came), creatures of peace (until they’re used for war) capable of great destruction (especially when threatened), but also show the price of slavery and the burden of putting them in captivity. However, whereas Dæny has positive associations with the Dothraki and their horses (at least until she decides she outgrows them and switches to Drogon, leaving her silver behind), elephants and dragons are being set up as enemies:

“[Trystane] always sets his squares up the same way, with all the mountains in the front and his elephants in the passes," said Myrcella. "So I send my dragon through to eat his elephants.” -AFFC

“He did not know these Volantenes, yet it seemed to him that elephants and tigers might have good reason to make common cause when faced with dragons.” -Tyrion 3, ADWD

“Triarch Horonno. A Volantene hero from the Century of Blood. He was returned as triarch every year for forty years, until he wearied of elections and declared himself triarch for life. The Volantenes were not amused. He was put to death soon after. Tied between two elephants and torn in half...He was a tiger. When the elephants came to power, their followers went on a rampage, knocking the heads from the statues of those they blamed for all the wars and deaths.” -Tyrion 7, ADWD

“Horses, mules, and donkeys were stabled in the western walls, elephants in the eastern. Dæny had acquired three of those huge, queer beasts with her pyramid. They reminded her of hairless gray mammoths, though their tusks had been bobbed and gilded, and their eyes were sad.” —Dæny 7, ADWD “"No," said Dæny. "For fire and blood." One of the elephants trumpeted at them from his stall. An answering roar from below made her flush with sudden heat. Prince Quentyn looked up in alarm. "The dragons know when she is near," Ser Barristan told him.” —Dæny 8, ADWD

“Tarth has fallen too, some fisherfolk will tell you," said Valena. "These sellswords now hold most of Cape Wrath and half the Stepstones. We hear talk of elephants in the rainwood."

"Elephants?" Arianne did not know what to think of that. "Are you certain? Not dragons?"

"Elephants," Lady Nymella said firmly.” —Arianne I, TWOW

So elephants, while primarily used as war machines, are not on their own violent. In fact, they seem to be peaceful enough and only get aggressive when threatened (and it’s usually dragons or their successors the Volantene Tigers that do the threatening). Contrast to the dragons, who Dæny has to rein in to prevent them from eating…various forms of meat and burning people. However, elephants certainly get the better ending; the dragons died out, the tigers are in the minority due to their bloodthirst, but the more peaceful/reasonable elephants outlasted both of them to rebuild what tyranny and violence cost. So here’s my prediction: the elephants will survive the Burning of King’s Landing and be used to a purpose that suits them: pulling away pillars and debris in order to rescue people. They will not be animals of war, but of rebuilding.

This new use of elephants is a direct subversion of Tolkien’s Oliphaunts. Sam Gamgee recites a poem to Frodo and Gollum about the wonder of Oliphaunts before the Black Gate: Oliphaunt am I/Biggest of all/Huge, old, and tall./If ever you'd meet me/You wouldn't forget me./If you never do,/You won't think I'm true;/But old Oliphaunt am I,/And I never lie. It turns out that elephants are used by the Haradrim who fight for Sauron; they are portrayed as ferocious berserkers egged on by “cruel Haradrim masters” (let’s just set aside how this makes no sense in real life and serves to contrast the African-coded people of Middle Earth with the white blond Rohirrim and their special horses in a very racist manner, or this prediction would be even longer than it is) to trample enemy soldiers. All the elephants brought to Pelennor Fields are killed by the Dol Amrothers with arrows to their eyes (which again, is completely unnecessary because elephants do not want to be in battle—as Scipio Africanus proved, if you give elephants enough space within your lines to leave the battlefield unharmed they will. Nope, let‘s wantonly slaughter elephants and their allegedly cruel masters, even though irl elephants have a deep trust for their mahouts.) This saddens Sam (and me) to the point of looking for the elephant he’d seen around Henneth Annun, but he never sees it again. So here’s the other part of my prediction: Samwell Tarly will participate in the cleanup of King’s Landing by riding an elephant (which you’re not supposed to do irl, but at this point I just have to shrug and say it’s fantasy land and fictional elephants don’t have spines). Sam Tarly has parallels with the elephants since he’s not a violent person by nature but will step up to protect others, he’s wise, he’s going to survive and help rebuild Westeros, etc. Sam Tarly is a partial reference to Sam Gamgee, but GRRM will subvert Tolkien’s disappointing lack of Sam-elephant resolution by actually having Sam T bond with an elephant.

(And live elephants in ASOIAF is about as exclusive an aegor-bamfsteel prediction as I’m likely to think of!)

#elephants #asoiaf speculation #asoiaf #ask #samwell tarly #dragons #gif #LOTR

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aboveallarescuer · 3 years ago

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I love that Daenerys Targaryen has significant parallels with all the major ASOIAF characters (as well as with many of the minor and the historical ones too). I love that comparing and contrasting her with them almost always highlights her epicness and/or how special her place in the narrative is.

Daenerys Targaryen is not just a queen, she’s a queen regnant and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, i.e., a she-king. This means that she can be compared and contrasted not only with Cersei and Margaery or with Alysanne and the other Targaryen queens consort, but also (in fact, especially) with Stannis and Robb or with Aegon the Conqueror and the other Targaryen monarchs that succeeded him.

Daenerys Targaryen is not just a claimant to the Iron Throne like Stannis, Young Griff and Renly, she’s the only one of them who is a POV character.

Daenerys Targaryen is not just one of the POV rulers, she also happens to be the only POV ruler with power in her own right and who isn’t in a subservient position in any way (Jon is Lord Commander, but he’s also the king’s advisor and is running the equivalent of a penal colony, so the stakes are much lower than Daenerys ruling a city and dealing with opposition from half the world; Tyrion and Ned are Hands of the King; Cersei is queen regent, which means that her power stems from Tommen’s kingship). Also, Daenerys has the clearest parallels with Aragorn and her ADWD storyline was deliberately written by GRRM as a response to the lack of information from Tolkien about what makes Aragorn a good king. Finally, if one compares her ADWD storyline with Jon’s, one can see how many roles she occupies at the same time: the administrator (Jon), the monarch (Stannis), the most magical character linked to fire and prophecies (Melisandre) and the leader of the disenfranchised (Mance; note that Daenerys was forced to leave her homeland, was enslaved and currently doesn’t belong anywhere - that’s the exact same situation of many of the former slaves of Slaver’s Bay, who come from different places and have different races, ethnicities and backgrounds. Daenerys empathized with them right away because she is one of them. Her detractors may accuse her of being an outsider, but that’s because they prioritize the viewpoint of the Ghiscari slavers. The freedmen, like Daenerys, come from many different places and are outsiders to the noblemen too).

Daenerys Targaryen is an extraordinary conqueror and strategist. Aegon the Conqueror made the Westerosi bend the knee with the help of his dragons, 15-year-old Daenerys Targaryen overthrew the slave masters primarily thanks to her own battle plans, not her dragons. Robb Stark captured castles in the westerlands motivated by personal injury and his actions had local impact; Daenerys Targaryen conquered three cities motivated by her desire to abolish slavery and her actions had worldwide impact.

Daenerys Targaryen is not a typical member of her family, she is the main leader and representative of House Targaryen in a way that Jon/Bran/Arya/Sansa or Cersei/Jaime/Tyrion can’t ever claim to be. Their fathers Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister had large roles in the main story and, in the Starks’ case, their older brother Robb is more well-remembered than any of them (at least so far). Meanwhile, Daenerys’s father Aerys II was already dead before she was born and before the main story began, which allowed her to carve her own path outside of his influence. Moreover, her accomplishments are already greater than both of her older brothers’. She became the face of her family in a way that matches (in fact, even surpasses) Ned with House Stark and Tywin with House Lannister.

Daenerys Targaryen is not a typical mother, she’s both Mother of Dragons and Mhysa. Her motherhood is transcendental in a way that Catelyn’s or Cersei’s aren’t because it is not related to blood ties or to her fertility. Instead, it’s associated with her unprecedented feat of reviving an extinct species, with her ability to make up the magic as she goes along, with her leadership, with her revolutionary nature, with her compassion for thousands of people. Additionally, unlike the other major mothers, Daenerys is the only one who isn’t doomed to go “mad” despite all the losses and hardships she faced.

Daenerys Targaryen is a hero, which is especially clear when her actions are contrasted with House Stark’s, whose brand of “heroism” has been mostly to react to personal injury so far. Ned Stark participated in Robert's Rebellion because his father and brother were killed. Ned’s son Robb wanted Northern independence because his father was killed. Ned’s vassals want to start another war in the name of the Starks because of their loyalty and their outrage about the Red Wedding. Their motivations, sympathetic as they may be, have never involved the commoners. In contrast, GRRM had Daenerys empathize with the former slaves, start a war in their name and abolish slavery despite them not being associated with her through oath of fealty or blood relations or lands. She was specifically singled out by the author as the one leader who “wants equality for everyone”. It’s a stark contrast (pun intended) to the actions of the main family (at least as a unit) of the story. Sadly, it’s easier (for some fans) to root for the heroes mostly reacting to personal injury who never made any mistakes of large scale consequences since they never got to be in authority. Or for the heroes fighting against ice zombies (though, to be fair, Jon haven’t even faced them in ADWD, his main challenge was to conciliate the Free Folk and the Night’s Watch, so the stakes of his storyline are much lower when one compares his problems with Dany dealing with enemies from all over Essos raising armies to defeat her). It’s harder to do the same with the hero who takes an active stance against social injustices and who wrestles with hard questions about when political violence is justified (which never have easy, clear-cut answers) and all the negative ramifications that come with them.

Oh, and have I mentioned that Daenerys Targaryen is the character with the most overt clues of being Azor Ahai/Prince That Was Promised/Stallion Who Mounts the World? Like with the birth of the dragons, uniting all the khalasars and then leading humanity to victory against the Others will be two more unparalleled feats of hers among the characters of the current timeline. Additionally, as she becomes surrounded and influenced by prophecies, we get to see how Daenerys has a healthy relationship with them in contrast to other characters like Cersei and Stannis.

All these attributes and accomplishments are made even more remarkable when one contrasts them with what doesn’t necessarily make Daenerys Targaryen unique. Yes, Daenerys became the most powerful person in her world, but she also lived in poverty among lowborn people without the privilege of a castle or a formal education, which lends itself to comparisons with Davos and Melisandre. Yes, Daenerys is a queen, but she’s also a young girl who loves songs and stories and idealizes her family members, which lends itself to comparisons with Arya, Brienne and Sansa. Yes, Daenerys is a loving, compassionate mother, but she was also raised by her abuser throughout all of her formative years, which lends itself to comparisons with dysfunctional families like the Lannisters, the Greyjoys and the Cleganes. And so on.

Daenerys Targaryen has a very special place in the narrative, which I think should be acknowledged not only to appreciate her character, but also to understand why GRRM chose to isolate her from everyone else. Why would GRRM be confident that his readers would still be interested in Daenerys despite the fact that she doesn’t interact with any of his other major characters for most of the story? Is it merely because of her dragons, as her detractors say?

No.

It’s because, as the list above showed, Daenerys’s narrative importance and accomplishments are unmatched. They had to be. Daenerys’s character and storyline had to be connected to pretty much everyone else’s in significant, thematic ways in order for her to earn an entire continent, as well as her place as the Fire of ASOIAF. That is why Daenerys is guaranteed to have a major role in all the three main plotlines of ASOIAF. That is why Daenerys is so iconic and represents this book series in a way that no individual Stark could ever do. That is why Daenerys has to be so many things at the same time: a POV character and a claimant to the Iron Throne, a mother and the main representative of her family, the most powerful person in her world and a former slave, a ruler and a conqueror, a she-king and a young girl, quite possibly the story’s main hero and savior. That no other ASOIAF character can come close to her narrative importance or to her in-universe accomplishments is kind of the point because Daenerys had to encompass everything that is great about ASOIAF in order to carry her own storyline. And I'm excited for TWOW because, as she moves closer to Westeros, her importance will only increase more and more.

Daenerys Targaryen is like fine wine. She gets better and better the more time passes, the more you think about her and the more you realize how all the other ASOIAF storylines somehow lead back to hers. Dany’s storyline almost always looks that much more epic and greater in comparison to them because she carries her storyline on her own, so the author had to make sure she caught our attention.

#daenerys targaryen #asoiaf meta #asoiaf speculation

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astradrifting · 3 years ago

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AGOT - Jon I (Chapter 5)

There were times—not many, but a few—when Jon Snow was glad he was a bastard. As he filled his wine cup once more from a passing flagon, it struck him that this might be one of them.

I don’t know why D&D decided Jon could never lie, when literally the first line in his POV is a lie. He’s so good at it he can even lie to himself!

****

A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of the hall his voice could scarcely be heard above the roar of the fire, the clangor of pewter plates and cups, and the low mutter of a hundred drunken conversations.

A singer with a high harp and a ballad seems like a vague Rhaegar allusion. That Jon can’t actually hear him makes me happy in a very petty way.

****

His lord father had come first, escorting the queen. She was as beautiful as men said. A jeweled tiara gleamed amidst her long golden hair, its emeralds a perfect match for the green of her eyes. His father helped her up the steps to the dais and led her to her seat, but the queen never so much as looked at him. Even at fourteen, Jon could see through her smile.

I think this part is actually Jon being indignant on Ned’s behalf that Cersei was rude to him, by not looking at him when he escorts her, not that she never looked at Jon. Also, there’s those observation skills. He’s never been taken in by a pretty smile.

****

After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit.

Adorable!!!

****

Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn’t even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool.

Jon’s a mean drunk I guess 💀

****

Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister’s hair and his mother’s deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar. Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.

Joffrey according to Jon: 👁👄👁

But Sansa looked radiant 🥰

****

He was more interested in the pair that came behind him: the queen’s brothers, the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. The Lion and the Imp; there was no mistaking which was which. Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered “Kingslayer” behind his back. Jon found it hard to look away from him.

This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

Giving me big ‘muscled like a maiden’s fantasy’ vibes there, Jon.

Also, curiously enough Jaime’s introduced wearing black and red, Targaryen colours. Maybe a nod to the incest storyline, possibly leftover foreshadowing from when Jaime was going to become king, as per the outline.

Otherwise this means that, like everybody else in this story, Jaime is a secret Targaryen. He and Cersei can join the ranks of Jon, Tyrion, Varys, Mance Rayder and while we’re at it… *spins a wheel of names* Meera too.

****

His brothers and sisters had not been permitted to bring their wolves to the banquet, but there were more curs than Jon could count at this end of the hall, and no one had said a word about his pup. He told himself he was fortunate in that too.

His eyes stung. Jon rubbed at them savagely, cursing the smoke.

Jon spends half this chapter on the verge of tears, my angsty little lad.

****

Jon looked up happily as his uncle Ben put a hand on his head and ruffled his hair much as Jon had ruffled the wolf’s.

They actually call him Ben and ‘uncle Ben’ a few times in the series, which I honestly think might be a Spider-Man allusion. Surrogate father figure Uncle Ben’s early disappearance/death kicking off the plot… There’s also a saying that nobody stays dead in comics except for Uncle Ben - considering all the other resurrections in the books, metaphorical and literal, yet GRRM says that Benjen isn’t Coldhands, it might be the same for this Uncle Ben too.

****

Jon swelled with pride. “Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.”

"[Garlan] is a great knight," Ser Loras replied. "A better sword than me, in truth, though I'm the better lance." (ASOS, Sansa I)

Love a Jon-Garlan parallel! Also thinking about Garlan being the older brother made me realise - in the story everyone thinks that Jon is younger than Robb, but timeline-wise, he has to be older, because Robb was conceived in the two weeks before Ned left to fight at the Trident, and Rhaegar must have at least already been in the capital by then to rally the loyalists, so Jon was conceived weeks, if not months earlier. Which means that Ned has definitely lied about when Jon’s birthday is.

Jon being the product of a ‘youthful indiscretion’ before he was married is less of a stain on Ned’s honour than him betraying his marriage bed but I imagine Catelyn’s fears about Jon usurping her children might have had more basis if he was known to be the eldest, so maybe that’s why Ned lied about how old he is.

****

“Daeron Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne,” Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.

"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeron Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"

Jon is unfortunately, a jock. And a bit of an idiot.

There’s something about Jon’s hero dying at 18, Waymar dying at 18 just a few chapters ago... Jon has them all beat by dying at 17.

****

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.”

Establishing Benjen as a somewhat contentious father figure to Jon - even more fuel for my brand new Uncle Ben ‘theory’.

****

The wolf pup padded closer and nuzzled at Jon's face, but he kept a wary eye on Tyrion Lannister, and when the dwarf reached out to pet him, he drew back and bared his fangs in a silent snarl.

"Shy, isn't he?" Lannister observed.

"Sit, Ghost," Jon commanded. "That's it. Keep still." He looked up at the dwarf. "You can touch him now. He won't move until I tell him to. I've been training him."

Possibly he and Sansa are the only ones who properly trained their direwolves, considering how the rest of them will end up behaving.

****

“If I wasn’t here, he’d tear out your throat,” Jon said. It wasn’t actually true yet, but it would be.

Pffffft! Edgy edgy edge-lord 💀

Though I also always feel like issuing casual threats to Tyrion Lannister so I can’t really blame him.

****

Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange.

He’s got a weird preoccupation with comparing his height to Lannister men in this chapter. My headcanon for the books is that Jon’s quite tall by ADWD but evidently he’s tiny in AGOT if he feels strange being tall next to a dwarf.

****

final thoughts:

Believe it or not, I didn’t actually have Jonsa in mind with my new Uncle Ben theory, but I did just remember that brown haired Peter Parker’s main love interest is red-haired MJ :P

#astra re-reads #agot re-read #jon chapters

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cappymightwrite · 3 years ago

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Jon Snow, Manfred & The Byronic Hero: Part 2

Previous Posts: PART 1

Hopefully Part 1 served as a good introduction on the topic and characteristics of the Byronic Hero, as well as how Jon Snow in particular is likely an iteration of this figure. But now we come to the real meat of this meta series — a closer look at Byron's dramatic poem Manfred (1816–1817), and more importantly, its titular character in comparison to Jon Snow. I was originally going to do an analysis and comparison of two key episodes in Manfred and A Storm of Swords, Jon VI, but have since decided to give that its own post... that's right kids, there will be a part 3!

(Detail from Lord Byron, Thomas Phillips, 1813)

So... why Manfred? Why not Childe Harold's Pilgrimage, or The Corsair, or Don Juan, or any other work by Lord Byron? Well, I'll tell you why, my sweet summer children. It's because of THIS:

Manfred/Manfryds and Byrons in ASOIAF, by order of first appearance and publication:

Ser Manfred Swann (ASOS, Jaime VIII)

Ser Manfred Dondarrion (The Hedge Knight)

Manfred Lothston (The Sworn Sword)

Manfryd o' the Black Hood (AFFC, Brienne I)

Manfryd Yew (AFFC, Jaime V)

Ser Byron the Beautiful (AFFC, Alayne II, TWOW, Alayne I)

Ser Byron Swann (ADWD, Tyrion III)

Manfryd Merlyn of Kite (ADWD, Victarion I)

Manfryd Mooton, Lord of Maidenpool (The Princess and the Queen, TWOIAF)

Manfred Hightower, Lord of the Hightower (TWOIAF)

Manfred Hightower, Lord of the Hightower (Fire and Blood)

Like... what the hell, George?

I find this very interesting, very interesting indeed! *cough* intentional, very intentional *cough* And I have to thank @agentrouka-blog for reminding me of the existence of these Manfreds/Manfryds, and thus pointing me in this particular direction. This evidence is, for me, my smoking gun, it's why I feel justified in exploring this specific work. In my opinion, it really strongly confirms that GRRM is aware of Manfred, he is aware of its author — as a literary name, it is pretty much exclusively connected to Byron, it's like Hamlet to Shakespeare, or Heathcliff to Emily Brontë. In fact, GRRM likes it enough to use this name several times in fact, its frequency of use aided by a slight variation on its spelling.

So, as we can see, there are a striking number of Manfred/Manfryds (9!!) featured in the ASOIAF universe, whereas Byron (2) is used a bit more sparingly — perhaps because the latter, if more liberally used, would become far more recognisable as an overt literary reference? Interestingly, though, we can see a direct link between the two names as both bear the surname Swann: Ser Manfred Swann and Ser Byron Swann (note the exact spelling of Manfred here, as opposed to Manfryd). Ser Byron was alive during the Dance of Dragons and died trying to kill the dragon Syrax, whereas Ser Manfred was alive during Aegon V's reign and had a young Ser Barristan as his squire. So, in terms of ancestry, Byron came before Manfred, which makes sense since Lord Byron created the character of Manfred; he is his authorial/literary progenitor, if you will.

But why Swann, though? Is there any significance to that surname? Well, I did a little bit of digging and turned up something very interesting, at least in my opinion. In Percy Bysshe Shelley's poem Lines written among the Euganean Hills (1818), in its sixth stanza, the poet addresses the city of Venice... the “tempest-cleaving Swan” in the eighth line is clearly meant to be his friend and contemporary, Lord Byron, that city’s most famous expatriate:

That a tempest-cleaving Swan Of the songs of Albion, Driven from his ancestral streams By the might of evil dreams, Found a nest in thee;

(st. 6, l. 8-12)

Ah ha! But let's not forget that the Swanns are also a house from the stormlands — stormlander Swanns vs. "tempest-cleaving Swan." It seems a nice little homage, doesn't it? You could also argue that the battling swans of House Swann's sigil are a possible reference to Byron's fondness for boxing (he apparently received "pugilistic tuition" at a club in Bond Street, London). But to make the references to Byron too overt would ruin the subtly, so it isn't necessary, in my opinion, for the Swanns to be completely steeped in Byronisms.

All in all, it would be very neat of GRRM if the reasoning behind Byron and Manfred Swann is because of this reference to Lord Byron by Shelley. How these names and the characters that bear them might further reference Byron and Manfred is a possible discussion for another day! It's all just very interesting, very noteworthy, and highlights how careful GRRM is at choosing the names of his characters, even very minor, seemingly insignificant ones.

(Illustration of Villa Diodati from Finden's Illustrations of the Life and Works of Lord Byron, Edward Finden, 1833)

Now onto the actual poem, and the ways in which Jon Snow could being referencing/paralleling Manfred. First things first, a bit of biographical context. Take my hand, and let's travel back in time, way back when, to 1816, the year in which Lord Byron left England forever, his reputation in tatters due to the collapse of his marriage and the rumours of an affair with his half-sister, Augusta Leigh (plus he was hugely in debt). No doubt, most of us are familiar with the story, but in 1816 Byron travelled to Switzerland, to a villa on Lake Geneva, where he met the Shelleys and suggested that they all pass the time by writing ghost stories.

The most famous story produced by them was, of course, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein (1818) — which may have served as the partial inspiration behind Qyburn and Robert Strong! Byron himself did begin a story but soon gave it up (yesss, we love an unproductive king); it was completed, however, by his personal physician, John William Polidori, and eventually published, under Byron's name, as The Vampyre (1819). But Byron didn't completely abandon the ghost story project, as later that summer, after a visit by the Gothic novelist M. G. Lewis, he wrote his "supernatural" tragedy, Manfred (1817).*

*I've seen it dated as 1816-17, but the crucial thing to rememeber, in terms of Byron's own biography, is that unlike The Bride of Abydos, he wrote it after his departure from England... this theme of exile will come up later.

Manfred is what is called a "closet drama", so is structured much like a play, with acts and scenes, though it wouldn't have actually been intended to be performed on stage. Indeed, Lord Byron first described Manfred to his publisher as "a kind of poem in dialogue... but of a very wild—metaphysical—and inexplicable kind": "Almost all the persons—but two or three—are Spirits... the hero [is] a kind of magician who is tormented by a species of remorse—the cause of which is left half unexplained—he wanders about invoking these spirits—which appear to him—& are of no use—he at last goes to the very abode of the Evil principle in propria persona [i.e. in person]—to evocate a ghost—which appears—& gives him an ambiguous & disagreeable answer..."*

*As in Part 1, more academic references will be listed in a bibliography at the end of this post.

To sum up the narrative for you, Manfred is a nobleman living in the Bernese Alps, "tormented by a species of remorse", which is never fully explained, but is clearly connected to the death of his beloved Astarte. Through his mastery of poetic language and spell-casting, he is able to summon seven "spirits", from whom he seeks the gift of forgetfulness, but this plea cannot be granted — he cannot escape from his past. He is also prevented from escaping his mysterious guilt by taking his own life, but in the end, Manfred does die, thus defying religious temptations of redemption from sin. He therefore stands outside of societal expectations, a Romantic rebel who succeeds in challenging all of the authoritative powers he faces, ultimately choosing death over submission to the powerful spirits.

According to Lara Assaad, the character of Manfred is the "Byronic hero par excellence", as he shares its typical characteristics found in Byron's other work (as discussed in Part 1), "yet pushed to the extreme." As noted above, there is a defiance to Manfred's character, which is arguable also found in Jon. Certainly though, in all of Byron's works, the Byronic Hero appears as "a negative Romantic protagonist" to a certain extent, a being who is "filled with guilt, despair, and cosmic and social alienation," observes James B. Twitchell. I'll come back to those characteristics presently.

As noted by Assaad, "Byron scholars seem to agree on this definition of the Byronic Hero, however they focus mainly, if not exclusively, on the dynamics of guilt and remorse." Indeed, it is only in more recent years that the incest motif, as well as the influence of Byron's own biography, have been more widely discussed. But perhaps the most compelling aspect of the Byronic Hero is his complex psychology. Although trauma theory only really started to flourish during the 1990s, thus providing deeper insight into the symptoms that follow a traumatic experience, it nevertheless seems, at least to Assaad, that "Byron was familiar with it well before it was first discussed by professionals and diagnosed." As we know, GRRM began writing his series, A Song of Ice and Fire, during the 1990s, and character trauma and its effects feature heavily in his work, most notably in the case of Theon Greyjoy, but also in the memory editing of Sansa Stark in terms of the infamous "Unkiss".*

*The editing, or supressing, of memories is not exclusive to Sansa, however. E.g @agentrouka-blog has theorised a possible memory edit with regards to Tyrion and his first wife Tysha.

But if we return back to that original quote, in which GRRM makes the comparison between Jon and the Byronic Hero, his following statement is also very interesting:

The character I’m probably most like in real life is Samwell Tarly. Good old Sam. And the character I’d want to be? Well who wouldn’t want to be Jon Snow — the brooding, Byronic, romantic hero whom all the girls love. Theon [Greyjoy] is the one I’d fear becoming. Theon wants to be Jon Snow, but he can’t do it. He keeps making the wrong decisions. He keeps giving into his own selfish, worst impulses. [source]

As noted by @princess-in-a-tower, there is a close correspondence between Jon and Theon, with each acting as the other's foil in many respects. In fact, Theon does sort of tick off a few of the Byronic qualities I discussed last time, most notably standing apart from society, that "society" being the Starks in Winterfell, due to him essentially being a hostage. Later on, we see him develop a sense of deep misery as well due to his horrific treatment at the hands of Ramsey Snow. Like Theon, his narrative foil, Jon is also a character deeply informed by trauma (being raised a bastard), but the way they ultimately process and express that specific displacement trauma differs profoundly — Theon expresses it outwardly through his sacking of Winterfell, whereas Jon turns his trauma notably inwards.*

*Obviously, I'm not a medical professional — I'm more looking at this from a literary angle, but the articles I've read for this post do include reference to real medical definitions etc.

Previously, I observed how being "deeply jaded" and having "misery in his heart" were key characteristics of the Byronic Hero, as well as Jon Snow — this trauma theory is a continuation of that. Indeed, to bring it back to Manfred, Assaad goes as far as stating that the poem's titular hero "suffers from what is now widely recognised as post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)." I am purposely holding off on discussing what the origin of that trauma is, in relation to Manfred specifically, because, well... it needs a bit of forewarning before I get into it fully. Instead, let's look at the emotions it exacerabates or gives rise to, as detailed by Twitchell, and how they might be evident in Jon and his feelings regarding his bastard status.

(Jonny Lee Miller as Byron in the two part BBC series Byron, 2003)

Guilt

Does Jon suffer guilt due to him being a bastard and secretly wanting to "steal" his siblings' birthright? I'd say a strong yes:

When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child's folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword. Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother's birthright? I have no right to this, he thought, no more than to Ice. – AGOT, Jon VIII He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. – ASOS, Jon XII

But I think Jon's sense of guilt also extends to the high expectations he sets for himself, his "moral superiority" in the face of his bastard status, as discussed in Part 1. He feels guilt pulling him in two different directions, in regards to Ygritte: guilt for loving her, for breaking his vows, and potentially risking a bastard, but also guilt for leaving her, for abandoning her, and potentially leaving her unprotected:

His guilt came back afterward, but weaker than before. If this is so wrong, he wondered, why did the gods make it feel so good? – ASOS, Jon III Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body... and the look on her face as she slit the old man's throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he'd left Jon's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night's Watch. – ASOS, Jon VI "I broke my vows with her. I never meant to, but..." It was wrong. Wrong to love her, wrong to leave her..."I wasn't strong enough. The Halfhand commanded me, ride with them, watch, I must not balk, I..." His head felt as if it were packed with wet wool. – ASOS, Jon VI

This guilt surrounding leaving the women/girls he cares about unprotected also extends to Arya. Yet it was his need to prove himself as something more than just a bastard, by joining the Watch, which initially prevents him from acting, and which also makes him feel guilt for being a hyprocrite:

Jon felt as stiff as a man of sixty years. Dark dreams, he thought, and guilt. His thoughts kept returning to Arya. There is no way I can help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard's heart. – ADWD, Jon VI

I think there is a lack of reconciliation between Jon and his bastard status, between what being a bastard implies in their society: lustful, deceitful, treacherous, more "worldly" etc. Deep down, subconsciously, Jon really rebels against it. You can see that rebellion more clearly in his memories as a younger child, less inhibited:

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne." That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken. – ASOS, Jon XII

But Jon knows this truth about himself, he knows that he has "always wanted it", and that causes him so much guilt because he can't allow himself to be selfish in that regard, because to do so would confirm for him his worst fears... that he truly is a bastard in nature as well as birth — treacherous, covetous, dishonourable.

Despair

As he grows up, learning to curb his emotional outbursts from AGOT, Jon appears more and more stoic upon the surface. But beneath that, buried in his subconscious in the form of dreams, you have this undyling feeling of despair, this trauma connected to his bastard status, his partially unknown heritage:

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind. – AGOT, Jon III

These recurring dreams, sometimes explicitly involving his unknown mother, sometimes not, represent a clear gap, a gaping blank in Jon's personal history and his perception of his identity:

"Sometimes I dream about it," he said. "I'm walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I don't even know who I'm looking for. Most nights it's my father, but sometimes it's Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle." [...]

"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked.

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. – AGOT, Jon IV

"That always scares me", he says quite tellingly. From this key passage, in particular, we can see that Jon feels a deep rooted despair at essentially being unclaimed, unwanted... being without a solid (Stark) identity around which to draw strength and mould himself. He's afraid of being a lone wolf, because as we all know, "the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," (AGOT, Arya II).

This dream points him in the direction of the crypts — "somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to" — which actually does have the answers he seeks because that is where Lyanna Stark is buried. Yet Jon is "afraid of what might be waiting for [him]", and wants to "scream" with dispair because of the darkness. So, this need for a confirmed identity is a double edged sword, which will no doubt be further complicated when his true parentage is revealed.

Elsewhere, Jon's dreams continue to have this despairing quality to them, often involving Winterfell, the Starks, and especially Ned, which is very interesting on a psychological level:

The grey walls of Winterfell might still haunt his dreams, but Castle Black was his life now, and his brothers were Sam and Grenn and Halder and Pyp and the other cast-outs who wore the black of the Night's Watch. – AGOT, Jon IV

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. He dared not go back to sleep. Instead he had climbed the Wall and walked, restless, until he saw the light of the dawn off to the east. It was only a dream. I am a brother of the Night's Watch now, not a frightened boy. – AGOT, Jon VII

But it is never "only a dream", is it?

And when at last he did sleep, he dreamt, and that was even worse. In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father's face, but he dared not tell Mormont that. – AGOT, Jon VIII

Even Jon's conscious daydreams in AGOT revolve around his dispairing search for a solid identity:

A lot of these early dreams occur in A Game of Thrones, probably in response to his removal from Winterfell... his self exile. But later on in the series Jon continues to have dreams that tie him to the Starks and to Winterfell, ominous and sometimes despairing too. There's honestly too many instances to list, but if you want to understand the root of Jon's existential despair... it's in his dreams.

Cosmic Alienation

Cosmic alienation, now that's an interesting one in regards to Jon, since he definitely hasn't reached this state... yet. Life and his belief in the divine (the old gods) still hold meaning for him, but then he gets murdered by his black brothers. In the show, the writers hint at some cosmic alienation through Jon stating that he saw "nothing" whilst dead, but then they take it no further and generally do a piss poor job of post-res Jon. This characteristic of Manfred coming to the fore in Jon depends on what happens in The Winds of Winter, but I don't think it is at all that far fetched to assume that Jon will return to his body with a darker, altered perception of things.

Social Alienation

In Part 1, I discussed how Jon, like Byron's heroes, could be read as a "a rebel who stands apart from society and societal expectations." On a more psychological level, we can see how this Otherness, stemming from his bastard status, deeply affects Jon and his perception of himself and the world:

Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. "Don't you usually eat at table with your brothers?"

"Most times," Jon answered in a flat voice. "But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them." – AGOT, Jon I

In his very first chapter, we see him quite literally alienated from the rest of his siblings, made to sit apart from them, an apparent necessity he seems fairly resigned to. Also in Part 1, I gave examples of instances in which Jon is mockingly called "Lord Snow," as well as a "rebel", "turncloak", "half-wildling", all of which serve to alienate him from the rest of the brothers of the Night's Watch.

Stannis gave a curt nod. "Your father was a man of honor. He was no friend to me, but I saw his worth. Your brother was a rebel and a traitor who meant to steal half my kingdom, but no man can question his courage. What of you?" – ASOS, Jon XI

The above interaction may seem on the surface to be about one thing — whether or not Jon will be of help to Stannis, offer him loyalty etc. — but tagged onto the end we have quite a poignant question: "what of you?" What are you, essentially. Who are you? The truth of his parentage may, in part, solve these questions... but it may also serve to alienate Jon from his perception of himself further. Ultimately, who exactly he is — what he believes in, who and what he fights for, etc. — will be solely his decision to make going forward.

So, the Byronic Hero, certainly in Manfred's case, but also in later iterations, is arguably traumatised by his own past. But regardless as to whether his trauma is related to a mysterious past, a secret sin, an unnamed crime, or incest, aka "secret knowledge", what is clear in Assaad's interpretation, is that the Byronic Hero is "living with the traumatic consequences of his own past and so suffers from PTSD." But why is Manfred traumatised, what is the specific cause of this trauma, or how might it reveal something deeper about Jon's own trauma? Now, here we come to the unavoidable... I'm going to start talking about Byronic incest and the pre-canon crush/kiss theory, and how it potentially parallels certain aspects of Manfred.

I should preface this by stating that I don't think Jon is suppressing trauma because he committed intentional incest with Sansa, but I do think (or at least somewhat theorise that) Byronic incest does come into play regarding his intense feelings of guilt and existential despair.

But still, stop reading now if are opposed to discussions of the pre-canon crush/kiss theory and the literary incest motif as a whole!

(Detail from The Funeral of Shelley, Louis Édouard Fournier, 1889)

Hey there to the depraved! If you aren't already familiar with the theory, here are some previous discussions/metas on the subject:

Full Blown Meta:

A Hidden and Forbidden Love by @princess-in-a-tower

Ask Answers (Long):

Jonsa as a more positive mirror to Jaime and Cersei? by @princess-in-a-tower, with additional comment by @jonsameta

Discussing the theory by @jonsameta

Evidence for pre-canon Jonsa? by @agentrouka-blog

Kissing in the godswood? by @agentrouka-blog

Why don't we read about Jon's reaction to Sansa and Tyrion? by @agentrouka-blog

More on Jon's supposed non-reaction by @agentrouka-blog, with additional comment made by @sherlokiness

A Jonsa "Unkiss"? by @fedonciadale

A hidden memory? by @fedonciadale

Sansa's misremembering by @fedonciadale

Descriptive parallels between A Song for Lya and Jonsa by @butterflies-dragons

Ask Answers (Short) & Briefer Mentions:

Jealous Jon by @princess-in-a-tower

Your new boyfriend looks like a girl by @butterflies-dragons

Like in Part 1, I've tried to cite as much as I could find, but as always, if anyone feels like I've missed someone important or that they should be included in the above list, please just drop me a line!

Now, it's a controversial theory, and not everyone's cup of tea — I think that's worth acknowledging! I myself am not wholly married to it, I'd be fine if it wasn't the case, but that being said, I can't in good faith ignore it when considering Lord Byron and the Byronic Hero. The incest is, unfortunately, very hard to ignore, both in his work and in his personal life. It's pretty hard to ignore in Manfred, for that matter, which is why I've held off talking about it... until now!

All aboard the Manfred incest train *choo choo* !!

First stop, Act II, scene one. Oh, wait, an annoucement from your conductor... apologies everyone, I purposely neglected to mention quite a key detail. Remember "Astarte! [Manfred's] beloved!", (II, iv, 136)? Yeah... it's heavily implied that Astarte is in fact Manfred's half-sister. *shoots finger guns* Classic Byron! *facepalms*

Oh, and that's not all! Let's consider the context surrounding the writing of this work for a moment, shall we? Unlike The Bride of Abydos (1813),* Manfred was written notably after the fallout of his incestuous affair with his half-sister, Augusta Leigh, composed whilst in a self-imposed exile. *spits out drink* Woah, woah there cowboy... what in tarnation?! EXILE?!

*As referenced in Part 1, @rose-of-red-lake has written an excellent meta on the influence of Lord Byron's work (and personal life) on Jonsa, paying special attention to the half-siblings turned cousins in The Bride of Abydos.

Although, as noted by rose-of-red-lake, The Bride of Abydos bears strong parallels to the potential romance of Jon and Sansa, as well as Byron’s own angst regarding his relationship with Augusta Leigh, the context surrounding Manfred seems... dare I say it, even more autobiographical. Because like Byron himself, Manfred wanders around the Bernese Alps, solitary and guilt ridden, in a state of exile heavily evocative of Byron's own — as I mentioned earlier, the beginnings of Manfred occured whilst Byron was staying at a villa on Lake Geneva, in Switzerland... the Bernese Alps are located in western Switzerland. In light of this, I think it's very understandable that some critics consider Manfred to be autobiographical, or even confessional. The unnamed but forbidden nature of Manfred's relationship to Astarte is believed to represent Byron's relationship with his half-sister Augusta. But what has that got to do with Jon?

Look, I don't know how else to put this:

Byron self-exiles in 1816, first to Switzerland, to Lake Geneva, where it is unseasonably cold and stormy — his departure from England is due to the collaspe of his marriage to Annabella Milbanke, unquestionably as a result of the rumours surrounding his incestuous affair with his half-sister.

Displaced nobleman Manfred wanders the Bernese Alps, in a kind of moral exile, where "the wind / Was faint and gusty, and the mountain snows / Began to glitter with the climbing moon" (III, iii, 46-48), traversing "on snows, where never human foot / Of common mortal trod" (II, iii, 4-5), surrounded by a "glassy ocean of the mountain ice" (II, iii, 7). He feels extreme, but unexplained guilt surrounding the death of his "beloved" Astarte, who is heavily implied to also be his half-sister.

In A Game of Thrones, Jon Snow chooses to join the Night's Watch, with the reminder that "once you have taken the black, there is no turning back" (AGOT, Jon VI). By taking the black, Jon arguably exiles himself from the rest of the Starks, from Winterfell, to a place that "looked like nothing more than a handful of toy blocks scattered on the snow, beneath the vast wall of ice" (AGOT, Jon III). But we aren't given any indication that he does this due to incestuous feelings regarding a "radiant" half-sister, akin to Byron/Manfred, are we? And it's not like we have several Manfreds/Manfryds AND Byrons namedropped within the text, is it? Oh wait... we do. *grabs GRRM in a chokehold*

What the hell, George?!

(Lord Byron on His Deathbed, Joseph Denis Odevaere, c. 1826)

But lets get back on track here and take a closer look at that section of Manfred I mentioned at the beginning — Act II, scene one, aka the part where all the incest and supressed trauma really JUMPS out.

So, early in Act II, in the chamois hunter's abode (a chamois is a type of goat?), according Assaad's analysis, Manfred is "hyper-aroused by a cup of wine." The wine is offered in an attempt to calm Manfred; however, to the chamois hunter's great dismay, it instead agitates him and makes him utter words which are "strange" (II, i, 35). Rather than wine, Manfred sees "blood on the brim" (II, i, 25). His sudden agitation and erratic behaviour confound the chamois hunter, who observes that Manfred is losing his mind: "thy senses wander from thee" (II, i, 27). Assaad's analysis of this scene, which she believes "is the most revelatory in the entire play" discloses "a bitter truth: Manfred's traumatic past informs his present life."

We might compare this with Jon, in particular, how his dreams reveal certain bitter truths to do with his past, now subconsciously informing his present. I've already looked a bit at his crypt dream from AGOT, Jon IV, but we see a sort of recurrence of this dream again in ASOS, Jon VIII. The imagery of being in a crypt, somewhere underground, buried, in the dark, a place of ghosts and spirits, is extremely evocative. Indeed, to go back to Byron's own description of Manfred, the setting of a crypt is extremely suggestive of certain bitter truths "left half unexplained", of secrets buried... and we know that's true because the secret of Jon's parentage is hidden down there, in the form of Lyanna Stark.

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark... – ASOS, Jon VIII

I don't think it's outlandish to state that, unquestionably, Jon's bastard identity is a source of ongoing pain for him. I talked about the theme of despair in Jon's characterisation and it is very evident in the above, and it stems from this "bitter truth" of not being a trueborn Stark, of not being "welcome", or having a true place. The emotions/mindset this trauma, concerning his birth and identity, evokes in Jon is arguably what brings him, on first glance, so closely in line with the Byronic Hero:

Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed / The crypts were growing darker = A mysterious past / secret sin(s)

You are no Stark / I am no Stark = Deeply jaded

There is no place for you here / I am not welcome there / This is not my place = standing apart from society and societal expectations / social alienation

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell / He walked deeper into the darkness = Moody / misery in his heart

He fell to his knees / Forgive me = Guilt

He walked deeper into the darkness / Please, Father, help me / He fell to his knees = Despair

These aren't all the Byronic characteristics I've addressed in relation to Jon, but it is a substantial percentage of them, all encapsulated, in one way or another, within this singular dream passage. As far as what is fairly explicit in the text, being a bastard is Jon's "bitter truth", it is the "traumatic past inform[ing] his present life." But what is Manfred's "bitter truth", what past trauma is informing his present? And can it reveal a bit more about another layer to Jon's trauma? Because there is a key distinction — Manfred's trauma, his PTSD, stems from a specific event, notably triggered by the (imagined) "blood on the brim" of his wine, whereas for Jon, we have no singular event, we have no momentus experience, we just have this "truth."

As mentioned previously, Assaad has recognised the character of Manfred as displaying symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). In Assaad's article, she remarks that "an experience is denoted as traumatic if it completely overwhelms the individual, rendering him or her helpless," and this is quite evident in the interaction between Manfred and the chamois hunter. Sharon Stanley, an educator and clinical psychotherapist, writes that "the word trauma has been used to describe a variety of aversive, overwhelming experiences with long-term, destructive effects on individuals and communities."

So, if trauma is related to an experience, or experiences, is it still accurate to say that Jon experiences trauma, connected to being a bastard? Because there is seemingly no singular or defining root experience, or event that it stems from, it just is… it is a compellation of several moments, revealed to the reader through Jon’s memories and/or dreams. What is being "left half unexplained” here?

Assaad makes reference to the American Psychiatric Association's definition of PTSD, in which it observes that for an individual to be diagnosed with PTSD, they have to suffer from one or more intrustion symptoms, one or more avoidance symptoms, two or more negative alterations, and two or more hyperarousal symptoms. The dreams Jon has certainly suggest something, but it seems like a stretch to say that, like Manfred, he is suffering from PTSD, right? We and Jon are very much aware that he is "no Stark", at least not in the sense that he is Ned's trueborn son, this isn’t something Jon is actively suppressing. By comparison, it is incontrovertible that Manfred committed something in the past, which he deeply wishes to forget and disassociate from:

Man. I say ’tis blood—my blood! the pure warm stream Which ran in the veins of my fathers, and in ours When we were in our youth, and had one heart, And loved each other as we should not love, And this was shed: but still it rises up, Colouring the clouds, that shut me out from heaven, Where thou art not—and I shall never be. C. Hun. Man of strange words, and some half—maddening sin

(II, i, 28-35)

However, we cannot be sure what this traumatic point of origin is, though we know that it is related to something he has done to his beloved Astarte, which subsequently led to her death. Many critics have suggested that his sin is that of incest, and as I noted earlier, that Manfred as a whole is more than just a bit autobiographical and/or confessional in nature. Manfred's incestuous sin therefore re-enacts Byron's incest with his half-sister Augusta. But regardless of the true cause, Manfred is traumatised by his past and cannot overcome it. Is there something in Jon’s past, that may have subconsciously, or consciously, influenced his departure to the Wall — his self exile — which he cannot overcome, and which is closely tied to the issue of and pain he feels due to being a bastard, not just the illegitimacy, but also the negative characteristics it assigns? Is there an event, or experience, we can pinpoint as the origin of Jon’s trauma and potential PTSD?

To circle back to Jonsa, there is some, not unfounded, debate amongst us concerning the validity of the pre-canon crush/kiss theory. I've always found it an interesting theory, but until now, I haven't really given it too much thought. In light of the Byron connection, however, as well as the textual analysis I have for Part 3, I think this scenario, as detailed by agentrouka-blog, seems more and more likely. And I don't say that lightly, I really don't. It is a somewhat uncomfortable speculation to make, even if the interaction was more innocent rather than explicit (this is the side I firmly fall down on), however, it’s ambiguity does potentially parallel Byron’s Manfred and Astarte. This post would be even longer if I included my side-by-side text comparisons, so you may have to trust me for the moment that there are some very striking similarities between Act II, scene I of Manfred, and Jon's milk of the poppy induced dream in ASOS, Jon VI, as well as the actual buildup to that vision.

But, that sounds frankly terrible doesn't it? And it doesn't bode well for his future relationship with Sansa, does it? And what does it mean if Jon is suffering from PTSD due to an incestuous encounter with Sansa? What does that mean for Sansa, Sansa who is doggedly abused and mistreated by men within the present narrative? This is awful, why would GRRM root their romance in something traumatic? Oh I hear you, and these are questions I needed to ask myself whilst compiling this. But you see... now bear with me here... it isn't the actual encounter itself that was traumatic, for either Jon or Sansa, and that is reflected in both their POVs, because, though they think about each other sparingly (explicitly at least), it is never done so negatively. No, the potential PTSD Jon suffers from this experience isn't connected to Sansa, to whatever occured between them. Rather, I believe, it's connected to either the fear, or the reality, that Ned, his assumed father, saw and/or caught him (either Sansa had left at this point, or didn't fully grasp the issue), and this fear, this guilt, this sense of despair, is made evident in this passage:

When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father’s face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn’t, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night’s Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. “You know nothing, Jon Snow,” she whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained, and the pool bubbled thick and red. – ASOS, Jon VI

That's the traumatic experience, I believe, not the kiss — yep, I strongly suspect there was a kiss. Moreover, Jon's recurring assertion, throughout the series, that he "will not father a bastard" is tied to this in some way, it’s tied to Ned, it’s tied to some sense of guilt and shame. It’s not tied to Sansa. But we'll look at this passage, what it means, what it parallels, and what directly precedes it, in comparison to Manfred, a lot more closely next time.

I'll leave you with a slight teaser though — the parallel that made me really sit up and take notice:

C. Hun. Well, sir, pardon me the question, And be of better cheer. Come, taste my wine; 'Tis of an ancient vintage; many a day 'T has thaw’d my veins among our glaciers, now Let it do thus for thine. Come, pledge me fairly. Man. Away, away! there’s blood upon the brim! Will it then never—never sink in the earth?

(II, i, 21-26)

Note this imagery!!!

Maester Aemon poured it full. "Drink this."

Jon had bitten his lip in his struggles. He could taste blood mingled with the thick, chalky potion. It was all he could do not to retch it back up. – ASOS, Jon VI

In both instances, a drink is offered, with "blood upon the brim", and "blood mingled". In Manfred's case, this is an explicit trigger for him, whereas for Jon? Well, it bit more hidden, a bit more buried, but this moment is, to my mind, the catalyst, because its imagery strongly evokes the colours of the weirwood tree — "blood" red and "chalky" white — you know, the "huge white weirwood" he later on envisions.

*spits out drink*

Maybe the magnitude of this parallel isn't completely evident as of yet, but it will be... or at least I hope it will be, so stay tuned for Part 3!

(Starting to run out of Byron pics so... I dunno, here's Rupert Everret, from The Scandalous Adventures of Lord Byron, 2009)

In Conclusion

To summarise, why is the Manfred connection so monumental to me? Why do I find the pre-canon kiss theory, specifically the scenario detailed by agentrouka-blog, now very hard to dismiss? Because:

The nine (!) Manfreds/Manfryds included within the text, as well as the two Byrons, one of which, the first mentioned in fact, first appears in Sansa's POV. But crucicially the direct link made by GRRM between Byron Swann and Manfred Swann.

The strength of the similarities that can be observed between Jon and the Byronic Hero, but also notably to Byron's Manfred, the "Byronic hero par excellence", according to Assaad. Especially the recurring emotions of guilt and despair, the latter exemplified perhaps most clearly in Jon's dreams.

The prominent theme of self-exile to escape something, something that perhaps cannot be openly stated, present in Manfred, Byron's own life, and Jon's narrative.

Those pesky half-sisters: Augusta, Astarte, and Sansa.

The PTSD symptoms clearly present in Manfred, but left "half unexplained", and seemingly not explained at all in Jon's POV — I'll dig more into this in Part 3.

The "blood upon the brim", and "blood mingled" — more on that in Part 3, I hope you guys like in depth imagery analysis!

Obviously, this is all still just speculation on my part, and it's speculation in connection to a theory that is understandably controversial. I'd be happy to dismiss it... if it weren't for the above. So, I suppose I'm in two minds about it. On the one hand, however you look at it, it's more trauma in an already traumatic series... which is *sighs* not what you want for the characters you care strongly about. But on the other hand, that literary connection to Manfred (and by extension to actual Lord Byron), the way it's lining up, plus that comparison GRRM himself made between Jon and the Byronic Hero... that's all very compelling and interesting to me as a reader, as a former English literature student. So, I don't want it to be true because... incest hell. But then, I also want it to be true because then it makes me feel smart for guessing correctly.

But anyway, we're going to be descending into incest hell in Part 3, so... we'll just have to grapple with that when we come to it. I hope, if you stuck with it till the incesty end, that you enjoyed this post!

Stay tuned ;)

Bibliography of Academic Sources:

American Psychiatric Association, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th edn (Arlington, VA: American Psychiatric Publishing, 2013); online edition at www.dsm5.org

Assaad, Lara, "'My slumbers—if I slumber—are not sleep': The Byronic Hero’s Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder", The Byron Journal 47, no. 2 (2019): 153–163.

Byron, George Gordon Noel, Byron’s Letters and Journals. Ed. Leslie A. Marchand. 12 vols. London: Murray, 1973–82.

Holland, Tom, "Undead Byron", in Byromania: Portraits of the Artist in Nineteenth- and Twentieth- Century Culture, ed. by Frances Wilson (Basingstoke: Palgrave, 2000).

MacDonald, D. L. "Narcissism and Demonality in Byron’s 'Manfred'", Mosaic: An Interdisciplinary Critical Journal 25, no. 2 (1992): 25–38.

Stanley, Sharon, Relational and Body-Centered Practices for Healing Trauma: Lifting the Burdens of the Past (London: Routledge, 2016)

Twitchell, James B., The Living Dead: A Study of the Vampire in Romantic Literature (Durham, NC: Duke University Press, 1981).

#jonsa #jon x sansa #jonsa meta #jon as the byronic hero #byronic hero #lord byron #tw: incest #cappy's thoughts #grrm and the Romantics #Jonsa and Romanticism #percy bysshe shelley #romantic poets #literary references #damn this was a long one!#glad a split it into another part!#i started to get a bit unhinged by the end not gonna lie

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