#aka the nabateans

[randomnameless]

FFS man you were there too, you are supposed to be as broken as your fool of a sister relative -

"please player chan, everyone counts on you"

"only you plz"

And then the fights ends with Billy being rekt'd, Claude making a diversion and Billy finally managing to rekt the zombie.

"only you can do this"

Come on Seteth, just tell us you were too busy to lend a hand.

Interestingly, contrary to SS, Seteth doesn't out himself as a Nabatean to Billy.

Maybe it's the wisest decision to make, since Claude is busy telling everyone Nemesis and the Mole People were ruining things/are targetting the monastery to get revenge against Sothis and Rhea...

[deathbirby]

Sorry for a bit of venting but god people like Dolphin and Rax really make me hate 3H so much. Which is funny since I actually started off liking the game quite a bit. But now? I cannot separate 3H from the horrendous discourse surrounding it. It’s really soured my opinion on the game and made me look at it in a different light.

The dumb 3H shit also affects other games that aren’t it like Engage, which is a shame since I love Engage and yet it was plagued by controversies— including being constantly compared to 3H and its “brilliant writing”.

Honestly yeah. It's hard for some people to enjoy a game when its fandom has such garbage people in it. It's hard for me to look at Edelgard in a positive light (even in the rare instances I defend her) because of how unhinged her stans are.

And 3H constantly being compared to Engage is just... ugh. They're different games. Different story, setting, world, characters, gameplay, etc. 3H was the exception in FE games, not the norm.

[randomnameless]

Flayn definitely isn't a child and no i'm not talking about the +1000 years old loli issue

Her support with Manuela showcases it, when Manu expects Flayn to be disgusted after hearing her "sordid" past, Flayn isn't at all, and tells Manu that her life of hardships is the reason why her songs resonate within people's hearts...

Flayn woke up, and wants to discover the world and its people, something she wasn't able to do during the War of Heroes - because, well, War - but maybe also before, when being a Nabatean was dangerous so she had to use hair dye, but more importantly, her parents lived in a secluded place, to protect her.

She wakes up and comes to the Monastery, finally able to "interact with people of her age" and make friends...

But then the game's events happen.

Her parents were right, not living in seclusion means danger, and she is kidnapped - she was going to be killed if not for the intervention of Sothis reborn (and Manu!).

Afterwards, she has a small moment of respite... until someone paints another target on her back, for being a non-human, and declares war against the only home she has left.

Depending on the routes, either Flayn's parents were right, and she should never have interacted and, ultimately, lived, in the "outside" world to survive (but then is she surviving if she cannot live?), or she was right, and manages to find friends (and possibly a lover!) "outside" bringing her great joy?

Can Flayn live in Fodlan?

The game never answers, and yet, 75% of its content tells you they can

Sometimes, I think people forget that, despite her situation, Flayn isn't "just" an innocent child. She's... not really a child, more like an older teen, perhaps a very young adult, whose father see as a child still because he's very protective over her

Flayn has participated in war. Flayn has exhausted herself to the point of sleep for almost a millenia to recuperate, watched over by her father.

Like, yeah, she's a bit out of touch (because hello she missed a millenia of culture evolving due to - sleeping for a thousand years to recuperate from her exhaustion during / after a war that dragged for almost a century), and she's very enthu

fuck

you know what I just fucking realised, typing this ??

Flayn, when you start the game, is FINALLY EXPERIENCING PEACE after ALMOST A CENTURY OF WAR

FLAYN HAS PROBABLY EXPERIENCED MORE TIME IN WAR THAN PEACE

WHAT THE FUCK ACTUALLY

Let Flayn Actually Fucking Live In Peace With Her Dad And Her Family For Fuck's Sake She Deserves It After All This Fucking Shit

[ym-loreposting]

Saints, Gods and Dragons in the murals of Fire Emblem: Three Houses

Fire Emblem: Three Houses is a large game that has subtle world building and thematic details hidden all over and in this post I want to point a few out, mainly concerning the depictions of Seiros, Sothis and the four Saints, as well as some related things. Major spoilers for Three Houses and Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes after the cut.

The hooded Saint

Saint Seiros is the identity Archbishop Rhea of the Church of Seiros originally went under during the War of Heroes, which ended with the Adrestrian Empire and Church of Seiros coming to rule over Fódlan. The war ended in the Imperial year 98, but Seiros stuck around for at least a century more until the completion of Garreg Mach Monastery in Imperial year 195.

Some time after this, Seiros would "die" and the Church of Seiros went on to be led by Archbishops, of whom at least a substantial portion were alternate identities of Seiros. This is made most apparent in Sylvain and Ignatz's support line in Three Hopes, where they discuss a painting of an Archbishop who ruled around the Imperial Year 961. During the support line, the painting is noted to bear a resemblance to Rhea and it also looks the part.

Saint Seiros meanwhile is a religious figure revered throughout Fódlan, but she is never noted to look like Rhea despite them being the same person, so why is that? The answer lies in a piece of promotional art for Three Houses that depicts an in-universe mural. Near the bottom of the mural, a hooded figure can be seen that is the Saint Seiros. This is evident from the clothing she wears under her robe being the garb Seiros wears, as well as the wavy Sword of Seiros she holds.

This is further driven home by the murals shown at the start of each chapter in Three Houses, some of which depict the hooded Seiros as well. The one for Chapter 10, Where the Goddess Dwells, for example, shows a variation of the promotional mural. This variation also depicts the Immaculate One, Seiros's Nabatean form, which are thought to be separate beings in the religion of the Church of Seiros.

The mural at the start of Chapter 2, Familiar Scenery, meanwhile shows a statue of the hooded Seiros defeating Nemesis. The familiar Sword of Seiros can once again be seen wielded by the hooded figure.

In-universe, it seems the face of Saint Seiros isn't known, likely a deliberate choice so that Rhea could continue to lead the Church of Seiros as its various Archbishops even after the 'death' of Saint Seiros.

The depiction of the Goddess and the Saints

While she appears as a child throughout Three Houses and Three Hopes, in the murals of the Church of Seiros, Sothis is depicted as a grown woman. In the large promotional mural, she seems to be the winged woman that takes up the bulk of the mural, as Seiros is depicted near the mural's bottom. Whether the mural depicts an idealized version of Sothis or the actual form she took prior to her murder by Nemesis is something I am not sure of yet. This depiction of Sothis can also be seen in the murals at the start of Chapters 9 (The Cause of Sorrow) and 4 (The Goddess's Rite of Rebirth). Of note is that Sothis is often depicted alongside a star symbol, likely representing the Blue Sea Star, her place of origin.

The mural at the start of Chapter 4 shows several other figures alongside Sothis, which are Seiros in her usual hooded depiction and the Four Saints that fought alongside her in the War of Heroes. The Saints in the mural resemble the statues that were built of them, not necessarily their true appearance (as is the case with Cethleann/Flayn).

The Saints, who are in truth Nabateans, also seem to appear elsewhere, specifically in their Nabatean forms. The crest of the Church of Seiros has a dragon depicts a white dragon that one at first may assume to be the Immaculate One (aka Seiros). However, this dragon lacks some key features of Immaculate One, most notable the Immaculate One's curled horns. Its head shape is also subtly different.

Instead, this may be the otherwise unseen Nabatean form of Saint Cichol/Seteth, which is indicated by the rest of the symbol of the Church of Seiros. Atop the symbol rests a mitre resembling the one worn by Cichol in his statue. In Three Hopes, it was revealed the name of this Nabatean form is the "Hammer of Judgment".

The flags of Knights of Seiros, as well as the Holy Kingdom of Faerghus, depict a Griffon-like creature on their flags. This may be the Wind Caller, Macuil's Nabatean form, though there are some differences in their designs, most notably the tail, hind legs and head horns. They could just be generic Griffons, which have appeared in Fire Emblem: Awakening and Fire Emblem: Engage, but those settings are distinct from the setting of Three Houses/Three Hopes and generic Griffons do not appear in Fódlan. Thematically at least it would make sense for Macuil to be depicted on the Knights of Seiros's flag, given Macuil made weapons for Seiros and the other Saints during the War of Heroes and the Knights of Seiros act as the protectors and metaphorical weapons of the church. The design differences remain notable however.

[fayesdiary]

Rhea for the "send me a character" w/ the "first impression, impression now, etc." ask game!

Cringefail pope my beloved💚

First impression

The days of 3H pre-release are long gone, but from what I remember I didn't think much of her beside her being another Mikoto archetype which I didn't have any interest in. (especially because this was back when I was still on Reddit and by extension the Fates Bad™ circlejerk)

Then I think I remember seeing a screenshot of an official tweet that went something like "fight/destroy the Church of Seiros in Fire Emblem Three Houses" (nevermind it happens in only one of the four routes and the most villainous one at that) so I was something like "welp. guess she's the villain of another Evil Religion™, whatever."

Impression now

fgdgdfgdfgdfgsdfgshfgifuhg

She's my favorite Fodlan character, something I never saw coming.

While I have my issues with how she's treated as a character (mainly being relegated to the red herring for Edelgard in Part 1 and the late Nabatean infodump only to then die in Part 2. You know, when she's not completely absent or treated as the scapedragon. In general she's treated with the "tell don't show" approach Fodlan writing loves) they are definitely mitigated by all the small details that make her so interesting. And while I find her lack of spotlight and moments where she shines at her best incredibly frustrating, I'll admit that digging beneath the surface and starting to see who she actually is as a person is quite fun in its own right.

She's a truly kindhearted, deeply flawed and quite cringe woman. Of course I love her.

Favorite moment

Funnily enough, her weed quest. Not just because the sheer concept of the pope indirectly giving weed to her students is hilarious, but because if you look closer you'll notice that every herb she gives seems to fit the specific students a bit too well to be a coincidence (for example Bernadetta's herb is said to give her the courage to strike a conversation, Marianne's gives her a more positive outlook on life and Ignatz's boosts his self-confidence).

This shows that while she feels unable to get close to the students on a deeper level, she's clearly paying enough attention to them to know the general things they struggle with and tries to secretly help them, and it's really sweet!

Idea for a story

I've been entertaining the idea of a Silver Snow rewrite (AKA a scenario where getting an A support with her changes the entire route instead of just the ending) where Rhea is rescued early and becomes the de-facto lord. Featuring character development where she finally starts to actually talk to the students and her loved ones, Dimitri in a secondary role because I think the dynamic between her and early-timeskip Dimitri, not to metion in a context where Edie's already dead, has some insane potential (also makes for a nice foil to CF).

Also changing from her requirement to survive from being A Rank with Byleth to being A rank with all of her support partners. AKA overcoming her fatal flaw allows her to not only survive, but live.

Basically her learning to stop compulsively keeping secrets, openly talk and get close to others again and rely on other people on a deeper level. You know, the good stuff!

Don't count on it ever actually getting written beyond a few posts though. I know my limits :(

Favorite relationship

Romantically with Catherine, platonically with Cyril!

Unpopular opinion

I mean, this is Rhea we're talking about.

Liking her to begin with and not treating her like she's responsible for everything wrong in Fodlan is already unpopular to begin with.

Also people severely overestimate the political power she actually has.

Favorite headcanon

As a joke headcanon: Rhea has been every single archbishop in the past as well, so to keep humanity from finding out she's a dragon she faked her death every few decades... in increasingly ridiculous ways.

It got to the point where the Seiros faithful believe the position of Archbishop is cursed, and whenever people act concerned about her because of it Rhea is grateful for it but at the same time is internally laughing her ass off.

[butwhatifidothis]

How do you feel about the QRT reactions to this "mistranslation" claim? A lot of Edelstans seem to be under the impression that Treehouse went out of their way to make Edelgard despicable but I always had the feeling that it was the opposite, that they softened in many other ways...

Link to twitter thread: https://twitter.com/teaspoonTL/status/1621494047167885317?t=nI-IHZFTyfUGPaHuVeigpg&s=19

Going by a trusted bud of mine who translates stuff, the translation the tweeter person gave seems accurate. It apparently, however, can either be seen as "this is an outright noble - aka just - thing to do" or "being noble doesn't mean being just" from Ferdinand's end. The in-game translation is more black-and-white on the matter, but given Ferdinand's general non-CF feelings towards Edelgard's conquest it's not surprising why they went down that route.

That said. To think that the ENG version of the game made Edelgard look worse is actually hilariously ironic. The ENG version covered her ass so much. Off the top of my head, her want to kill all the Nabateans and her explicit desire to use the Crest Stones for herself were both either muddied up or straight up changed in the translation. Another popular edelstan position is that the "reconquer" line was mistranslated - it isn't. Even their own "prettied up" version of the lines still makes her look childish and unaware. And I'm sure there are other examples of this happening that I can't think of right now lol.

It's a go-to they've been using for the last three 1/2 years whenever anyone points out that Edelgard is a villain. While this one has more stock to it than others, it's still up for interpretation and doesn't negate the numerous other examples in the game that clearly showcases Edelgard being the villain. To say nothing of the aforementioned things the ENG version made Edelgard look objectively better in lol

[randomnameless]

I guess Fodlan, as it's written, would imply that the "sudden illnesses" hitting Maurice's scions would be Agarthans doing Agarthan things, because per Nopes, they're the root of everything wrong (tm) in this verse.

Even if Houses suggested, with the rando who insults Marianne in her paralogue, that normal people, aka Bob and Carol, would also be ones to hunt Maurice's descendants believing them to be cursed (a throwback to the Loptyr blooded people and the witch hunts from Jugdral?).

However, Catherine in her support with Linhardt mentions something similar to Momo's ramblings, Catherine says she feels the relic "eating away" her soul, Maurice blames his urges on his "nabatean blood" and in the notes believed to have been written by him, there's a mention of a body falling to "ashes" and "evil", would the "evil" here mean the Nabatean/Relic "eating away" at the wielder's soul? 10k years of lore are 10k years of lore so we will never know the end of this story, but I don't think Momo or the Nabatean he "borrowed power" from are special in this situation, it's possible Catherine after overusing her sword could become a sentient black beast, much like Claude and his gang after, just like Maurice, bathing in the blood of a saint (in Nopes).

But as you noted, there's a link between Thales, Supreme Leader and the Crest of the Beast.

Is it only metaphorical, as in Supreme Leader is doubly called a beast, first by Dimitri (more explicit in the JP version of Tru Piss) and, in a way, by Thales who gave her a "beast" themed weapon, which is actually a mockery of a relic, since Aymr is fake one (it needs Agarthium to be repaired!) - sure it'd be part of the all those clues taking inspiration from buddhism telling the player that Supreme Leader's path is the wrong one that completely flew over the localised versions (granted I wonder how you could accurately localise the "beast path" in a game without adressing the entire context!) for a Doylist reason...

Or it's maybe Thales who realised how Momo still managed to keep his sanity after transforming unlike other random crest beasts (but Maurice is specifically noted to have been the only one who transformed with his relic!) so he thought "why not" and designed Hegemongard to work around a similar crest stone?

It'd be the cheapest explanation, but come on, we're talking about the same devs who gave Marianne the power to speak to animals... when Linhardt and Hapi's support chain mention that this power was originally Timotheos'... Was the DLC retconning Marianne's existence 8 months after the release of the base game, or what?

--

As for Luca not having a crest, maybe he shared his crest with another Nabatean (maybe he was another water dragon but Indech was more well-known around?) so every "water dragon sign" became "Crest of Indech" instead of being "Crest of Luca".

The identity of the Saint said to have been slained by Maurice, Nopes implies Momo killed them during the battle of Gronder (in 46? 45 years before Tailtean?) but concerning the number of saints, well, the FE16 artbook has this thing :

The first coffin on the left mentions... 16 saints???

(the one below mentions 4 "holy warriors", I guess they're the 4 Saints aka Cichol'n'co).

Was Luca one of the "16 saints"? Was he a shifter, who were the other 15 ? Gajus, Marcelle and Iris and the other named golems, were all saints Nabateans or some of them were hybrids or even humans with crests? Was Flayn's mom one of those 16 saints?

Everything's fair game since we won't have confirmation about this stuff (but we sure needed umbrellas or Fraud's real name revealed in an interview bcs who gaf about lore from the game, especially when it concerns nabateans?)

That all those accidents are just them going after anyone who may have actual Nabatean heritage.

That's maybe me cooking nonsense with the Nuvelles being Nabateans hybrids, but that'd fit with their "need" to hide who they are, aka Noa's scions from the Empire itself, if they think the Empire is compromised by Agarthans.

Or, if we want to hc a Fodlan where "everything wrong" doesn't have a single cause, I hc'd that humans would be worried about hybrid nabateans existing, since their existence would threaten/ruin the classicist system they tried to base their countries on (especially Adrestia) : if Rhea's perfectly happy living on her rock, who's to say a Nabatean hybrid, even if it's not one who has a crest of Seiros, wouldn't be a threat to the Emperor who's supposed to rule over Fodlan because of the covenant of the red blood and white sword + claiming to be Seiros and Willy's descendants?

(then Faerghus happens, and they're even more pissed because instead of sitting on her rock doing nothing but preaching nonsense, Rhea now meddles in "human affairs" to prevent further escalation especially since Loog defeated/killed the Emperor instead of supporting Adrestia's right to continue their blood games with northern barbarians)

We know at some point Emperors became paranoiac about Nabateans "sekritly controlling humanity", but I guess, due to their resentment towards Rhea after Faerghus + Agarthans telling them stuff + maybe the entire hybrid!Lycaon fallout that is only kept secret to the masses, I could see them participate and/or hunt everyone who has a chance to be Nabatean!blooded, and not just with a "crest".

@randomnameless

Something caught my eye with Maurice the other day. According to Hopes, in the document titled Crestological Mysteries,

“Whenever it became known that someone possessed this detestable Crest, they would suddenly fall ill or meet their end in an untimely accident. Inevitably, the Crest became an unspoken curse...“

“Suddenly fall ill” or untimely accident at this point makes me curious about the involvement of TWSITD. If someone is exposed to have this Crest, TWSITD step in to remove them from the gene pool, like out of all the Crests they want this one to die out. Not helping matters is that they used the Crest Stone of Maurice when making Aymr, and Thales chucks it at Edelgard when he captures her in Azure Gleam.

At this point, I’m willing to bet that Edelgard’s Hegemon Husk form is the result not just of bringing out the full power of her two Crests, but also the Agarthans using it to transform her (And then Thales using their techniques to control Edelgard like a typical Crest Beast). Something about that Crest in particular, one that gives Marianne the ability to communicate with animals, turns even people with Crests into Crest Beasts but still allows them to retain their minds (though Edelgard seems off after her transformation, likely due to her Crests not matching). Maybe what happened to Maurice isn’t because he overused his Relic, but simply because of the specific Crest he had?

Also, it mentions Maurice killing a “holy warrior.” So, a Saint. Thinking he was the one who killed Saint Luca, considering we know the other Saints and Apostles survived. But the strange thing is, there is no Crest associated with Luca and he was implied to be a shapeshifter.

“...As another example, though much said about him is likely fiction, we have Saint Luca and his many offspring. The man loved love, and had great affection for the many children he brought into the world. However, appearances can be deceiving. Was he truly the comely saint? If we consider that perhaps he was simply using some sort of power to change his appearance, then...”

What happened here? If he had many offspring, you’d think his Crest would be a little more common, and this is based on how they were seen by the people of the Empire. Luca was having children with humans. And then there’s Maurice and his sons being said to have sown his wild oats, which is why his Crest just pops up from time to time...

Sothis refers to Flayn as “The Kind One,” but it comes off as she assumes Flayn is another Nabatean in a body she doesn’t recognize. It’s implied Sothis confused Flayn for her mother, The Kind One that Sothis created. We also know there are at least two Crest Stones of Maurice, while there are two Relics associated with the Crest of Lamine (the Rafail Gem and the Ichor Scroll) and the Crest of Charon (Thunderbrand and Suttungr's Mystery). Think the best explanation for this is that Blutgang was made out of one of Luca’s childre with another Nabatean, then Luca fought Maurice during the War of Heroes and died. The Saint that had many children died to a weapon made out of one of his.

The Crest of Luca becomes known as the Crest of the Beast.

“...The Crest of the Beast was inherited by the wild oats sown by Maurice and his sons. They lived on in the shadows of various clans and families, and in particular lords who bore a grudge towards the Empire.”

But at the same time, people who are known to have the Crest end up dying due to the Agarthans. Maybe the answer to why they target the Crest isn’t because of the Crest, but because it could also come from Luca himself. That all those accidents are just them going after anyone who may have actual Nabatean heritage.

[randomnameless]

Why do we still have in 2024 stupid takes like Rhea created and enforces the crest system?

Bcs Rhea BaD anon.

More seriously,

FE Fodlan is one of one of the most divorced FE verses from its fantasy elements (see : Nabateans being as important as Ignatz's leather shoes) : Tellius has the Laguz existing, Archanea/Ylisse has manaketes hanging around and being a core point in FE Archanea, Elibe has its entire history involving dragons and the best ending finally be about acceptance between the two races, Magvel has zombies, Valentia has terrors and in SoV we have dragons and magic dragon blood, Fates has dragons (and laguz-like!) and even Jugdral have people with magic dragon blood.

(i ranted and ranted and ranted under the cut, so it's a bit long)

Unlike Fodlan, Jugdral's "people with magic dragon blood" are a key element to the story told at large, and it bleeds through the mechanics used to tell that story. FE4 wise, toddler!Seliph has a S rank in swords when Beowulf, even if he trains his entire life, will never achieve A rank in swords. Base!Julia with her holy weapon can smack Loptyr, when max!invested (at least lore wise) Forseti!Ced will never be able to kill him.

It's unfair for Beo and Ced, but that is how the verse works because, in that verse, some people are mc guffins or "the only ones" who are able to do something, or even, straight out, stronger/have more talent than others.

In traditional fantasy settings we have the "same" sort of rules, you have elves who do X and Y, humans won't can't, dwarves who can't either but they can do W, orc who can do J, etc etc.

Even for all of the "deconstruction of the genre!" gimmick ASOIAF has, according to some people, Dany is fire-proof and Jon most likely survives after being assassinated because he is a Stark and can use his doggo as a back up save, both things Edmure Tully will never be able to achieve.

Tolkien has Numenoreans being straight up blessed by the Valar/stronger/longer lived/etc etc than middle-earth humans, on top of also having elves, dwarves and ents.

Ergo : power inbalance is baked in the fantasy genre.

And yet, the writers often manage to tell some version of "the ones who have less power are no less important", like with Tolkien, it's a bunch of hobbits who manage to take down the greatest "evil" of their era, or some message like "having more power/being more important means you are bound to help the ones who have none" thingie.

In Fodlan, the "beings who have more power" than humans are the Nabateans (+ Sothis herself!). Sothis can create life, her daughter - through unknown means - can create artifical beings, one her children can control weather (the one who was turned in a milkshake for Charon!), one of them has monstruous strength (the one turned in a milkshake for Blaiddyd), one of them could communicate with animals (Timotheos iirc - if we assume he was a Nabatean or got his powers from his crest), her granddaughter can set up an AOE to heal what would otherwise be fatal wounds (it's heavily implied this is what Flayn did when she overused her power and went comatose) etc etc.

This is the original power inbalance in Fodlan.

Then some humans "stole" this power from Nabateans, and got a share of it themselves, which is what is later called "crest" : aka, some humans got a part of the super/magic powers that Nabateans originally had and thus, because, for all intents and purposes, "super-humans".

Now, Fodlan discourse started with FE16 being released in 2019, not that long after GoT's ending - which was trash - and in an era where fandom turned from "harmless fun" to "something that looks like activism and earns you point if you manage to use it to express your real life opinions".

In 2019, after Dumb and Dumber tanked GoT and removed most of ASOIAF fantasy parts to deliver "sex that sells" with a moldy plot, some part of the fandom started to conflate and harass people over what they like, and how it, apparently, reflected on their real life opinions ("if you hate this female character it means you hate women!"/"if you think X becoming king is a good ending, you don't value democracy!").

So, we have this fantasy setting with its inherent power inbalance... that quickly became something that is/was unacceptable, because IRL, power inbalance is based on bullshit and something everyone decries - so if your beloved media reflects on what you like IRL, you can't like a setting with an objective power inbalance, even if is justified by magic which doesn't exist irl like shooting eyebeams or some people being more "special than others" who can live up to 1500 years old.

Fodlan's power inbalance, for some parts of the fandom 2019, cannot be justified by traditional fantasy settings so, those settings/fantasy elements are straight out ignored.

Thus the "crests"' magic effects/powers are ignored, and dumbed down to, roughly, what a middle school student would think "nobility" is/was in the Middle Ages/Renaissance.

Jean-François Marie Pierre de Bourbon isn't inherently better at smashing things with a sword than Bob, or at healing than Roger, any "advantage" Jean-François Marie Pierre de Bourbon has over them is, maybe, that he started training earlier.

In Fodlan?

If Jean-François Marie Pierre de Charon has a major Charon crest, he can dance and clap in his hands to summon rain. Bob and Roger, no matter how hard they train, will never be able to do that. Jean-François Marie Pierre de Charon will thus be seen as having higher "value" or being straight up "better" than Bob or Roger, because as long as he is here, your crops will never suffer from drought.

But... we can't have that, because if you confuse fandom and real life opinions and aspirations, you cannot admit that some people in Fodlan are inherently "better" at something, only because of their blood, otherwise, what would it translate to IRL?

This is why, imo, part of the fandom (and the game sure doesn't help! Fodlan is no Jugdral and its gameplay lacks coherence regarding the in-game lore! Remember how Raphael can use a relic and only loses 10HP, when Miklan, plot wise, was turned in a demonic beast?) that loves this take, arguably, reduces crests to a title and family name.

Why should the Bourbon family rule over us, when they're no better than Roger or Bob? Isn't it unfair the Bourbons are still valued nowadays when the only thing to their fame is their name, and not what they are actually doing?

The game plays coy about crests - we know each of them has a specific power - but it never reveals what are those powers (lore wise!) save for 2 of them. So are crests superpowers, or just a family name with a particle, or both? Is the "system" (a friend made a post debunking any idea of "systemic" application of this notion in the three countries) based on bullshit, or on, objective superpowers?

Dimitri tries to tackle the issue, but only around relic usage : the Gautiers are valued if they have a crest because they can use their superweapon to protect the border. But what about valuing House Charon's ability to bring rain and guarantee good harvests? What is the other superpower tied to the crest of Gautier that isn't "use a femur and wreck havoc with it"?

If Marianne's ability to talk to animals is tied to her crest, why isn't it more developed? Instead of having useless shit like talking and befriending horses like a Disney princess, we could have Maurice-blooded people be masters of counter-intelligence, imagine if they can talk to birds/rodents and ask them to scout various areas or spy/ask them what they saw ! Hell, we could have had a situation where in a fog of war map, where Marianne, if, idk, through Billy fed enough animals in the monastery, would have a better field of vision than anyone else, with some blurb/one-line about her relying on the animals around to know and see what is going on! Alas, it wasn't meant to be.

FE16 eludes the question, because the character who "questions" a world centered around "crests" is the marketable asset of the game, and cannot be challenged in any meaningful capacity v- she feels it's unfair that her crest seemingly dictate her life, and only in the gacha game with ery serious writing like the Heavy Plate Corps or Sniddies, does she get a modicum of self-reflection - or at least someone challenging her - where she is told that she could use the superpowers she has to help people instead of blaming the world for getting one.

In a traditional FE setting, where some Lords question why they were born with power/or are in powerful positions, the answer is always that no matter what they were born with (or without in Leif's case!) what is more important is what they decide to do with that power. Elincia never wanted to become Queen? She will still fight and protect Crimea and its people. Marth is the last hope of Altea, even if it means leaving Elice behind. Seliph doesn't want to fight in Thracia anymore or feels like he's a fraud? He can turn tail and return home, while the world around him falls apart. Leif also feels like a fraud because he doesn't have superpowers like his cousin? Does that mean he should turn his thumbs and watch as his people are being caught/enslaved/sacrificed?

In Fodlan you have no reflection like this : Linhardt is, imo, the best example.

Dude hates blood and has a crest (aka magic powers) geared towards healing, you could make a case that for someone who has hematophobia, being a healer is difficult and this would be the reason why he refuses to heal/use his powers to help people around him... but no. Lin's laziness is played for laughs, and his refusal to do anything not related to his topic of interest is never questioned/analysed under the angle of, say, a head nurse who has no crest and laments that she couldn't save everyone who was hurt during an assault, who snaps at him for having the "gift" he has and not using it for the sake of people around him.

"What Lin decides to do with his power?" : Well, nothing.

Instead we have a reflection on his bright mind going to waste if he lazes all day long, culminating in his Supreme support where an Imperial facility is created specifically to cater to his tastes, that will enable him to research crests as much as he wants...

But still, nothing about his innate "healing" power!

In the end, it's no surprise that part of the fandom latched on that "crest = nobility title" because the Fodlan verse refuses to develop anything about its fantasy elements (hell, iirc Nopes swaps "crests" for "blood" and "titles" in its Supreme route ?).

"Sure, but where does Rhea fit in this nonsense?"

Rhea is, in this vision, the ultimate target !

For all of the "I ignore fantasy elements", Rhea is always (in FE16 at least!) turning into a dragon : no matter how hard you want to ignore fantasy, she's here to remind you tht, in this verse, dragons exist.

But most importantly, as Fodlan must be analysed through an IRL lens otherwise modern fandom cannot engage with it, Rhea, by virtue of being the lady in charge of a religious organisation called "Church", is also seen through a lens : Rhea BaD bcs Religion BaD and Catholic Church BaD.

FWIW, thanks to the five years of discourse we had, I learnt more about cultural values and differences existings between, here and the rest of the world - especially a place that is overepresented on fandom spaces - on organised religions especially the catholic church. Of course this bled on fandom takes and analysis, which projected some users' irl bias against the Catholic Church on the fandom organisation and entity that is the Church of Seiros. Combine this with secularism being now weaponised and used to ridicule people in spaces like r/atheism and you have a perfect recipe for "Religion BaD = Catholic Church BaD = fictional organised religion with a catholic flair BaD".

Granted, given how a certain loLcalisation team also originates from this place, it's no surprise that some "creative liberties" they took tried to hammer even more, let it be in the script or the fucking "what is this game about?" page on their website, how this fictional organisation is basically a squenix trope of "evil cult manipulating everything in the shadows and sekritly controlling the world".

Besides, the main heroine of the game (even if that comes with a twist!) opposes this faction (CoS and especially its leader!) and, by the way those games are built, as seen earlier, they cannot disavow her too much, else the entire gut-punch the devs were gunning for (you are betrayed by your beloved character! But unlike what happens in Baten Kaitos, you only are attached to her because she is your avatar's simp) will fall apart. So she must be, somehow, right and not motivated by more personal and heinous reasons, like not accepting "non-humans" to have powers over humans, or thinking the world is not a place for them (this was carefully scrubbed out in Nopes, btw!).

If Supreme Leader, who we are supposed to root for and whom the game ultimately rewards because "reforms" happen in the endings, says that the CoS is the reason why humans value superpowers, she must be right, or at least, not completely wrong???

Which raises the final point on this topic : FE16 came in 2019, which was election year in the US, and we all know that election time in the US means the rest of the world is also affected, even if the rest of the world, well, isn't the US. As I mentionned, the US is over-represented in fandom spaces, and fandom is far from being a safehaven from all the mayhem and passion that always boil during election time and its immediate following.

Coupled with the "my fandom faves define my real life opinions" thingie I already wrote about, and we had an explosive cocktail for bad takes, needless aggressivity, ridiculing people with dissident opinions because they are seen as "wrong", etc etc. And let it be something trendy or not, especially when (young?) people are arguing about "politics" in online spaces, but it always boils down to gross simplification of various complex issues and/or using catchphrases or "shock-value" words to win over whoever is reading/listening.

(et je ne dis pas ça parce que certains de nos politiques font des "immigrés clandestins ou pas" la source de tous les maux, ou le fait que nos députés font la même chose en ce moment, Jonluk et Marine main dans la main, pour paralyser l'Etat afin de pousser Manu à la démission et éviter la case prison pour Marine)

I always thought the "CEO of racism" was a meme, but through Fodlan discourse, I started to wonder if it was something started seriously by someone who really thought that "racism" is caused by one person.

And we finally get to the point : somehow, somewhat, Rhea is supposed to be responsible for people/humans valuing superpowers.

Forget that the same "quest to obtain those superpowers" led to the extermination of her kin, or how the devs themselves explained that people - at least in their setting - always want more power :

As a result, what would happen to humans who gained power... they would want even more power, and find a dragon much stronger to beat in order to collect materials forcefully, in order to make even more powerful weapons... and so that was the cycle that was born. And that was the birth of Fodlan's Ten Elites

Wait, kill that, those superpowers don't exist since the game and the characters (bar Catherine, but I agree with @9thwither here, Cat is one of the most overlooked characters in this fandom!) never talk about them, so they don't exist...

Rhea is thus the reason why people value bloodlines - especially since those bloodlines don't come out with superpowers.

It sounds better and closer to what you could "hear" irl, from someone who's discoursing on the internet to explain "why" some people are more valued than other, it's because of religion and the Pope! It cannot be because of, well, human greed or just the need to have more power (for good or wrong reasons), no.

"But random, the Church most likely promotes a "divine right to rule" doctrine and let the 10 Elites' families rule over their clans in Faerghus thus gain nobility!"

Sure, but everything is moot if you consider this : to make this take viable, we ignore the game and consider that crests are just bloodlines, and not, objective sources of superpowers.

So why are we, discussing about this hypothesis/theory, even arguing about what the game says and/or does?

Bob Blaiddyd can kill a giant lion/wolf with his fists at base level, is it because of a supposed doctrine that people rally and want to be in Bob's graces, or because Bob has the power to protect them all? Karen Charon can summon rain, are people siding with her because Rhea told them to, or because Karen can make crops grow?

In conclusion : why people are still, in 2024, sprouting those takes?

1- Because they refuse to engage with the game and realise that it is a fantasy game belonging to a very specific genre

2- Because fandom opinions reflect on your real life opinions and likes : so they must find a reason to oppose what their perceive as an unacceptable power inbalance otherwise it means that they support the various inequalities that exist IRL

3- Because Religion BaD and bar the "projected takes from transposing feelings about an IRL church on a fantasy one" more and more people tend to prefer an "easy to proceed" solution than think about multi-causal issues and find solutions that might not.

Of course, I can already guess that some people might argue that they don't "refuse to engage with the game" since this take is more a less a condensed version of the Supreme spiel, and as developed above, the game does - willingly - a shit job at demonstrating that her spiel is nonsense (they had to add the "greed" part in an interview released after the game and its only and final DLC!), just like her sockpuppet who supposedly learns how misguided he was in certain routes... only to end with the same ice cream, albeit with a different topping.

However, Dimitri and Sylvain mention how crestless children are disowned in Faerghus... when Dimitri's own uncle is ruling over a domain himself, Ingrid's brothers exist in the background and Gustave is still Baron Dominic's brother, on top of having been the royal master at arms for at least, depending on the route, 3 generations of Faerghan kings.

In a game where Dorothea can blame the Goddess for fighting in a war her bestie started - without anyone pointing this out - it's obvious this verse has unreliable narrators, but after 5 years and having played all routes in both games + a DLC + a dev interview explaining how and why some humans acquired crests...

Tl;Dr :

Reason 1- is most likely the most prevalent why this take exists anon, "because some people refuse to engage with the game" with the added topping of "save for what Supreme Leader and her sockpuppet say that I can use to demonise the characters I don't like".

[deathbirby]

there's an irony in the people thinking the Nabateans have to atone for their "sins" because they think Rhea is irredeemably evil compared to Seiros letting the families of the Ten Elites live despite all the problems their ancestors caused

lmao now that you mention it, theyre basically saying what they wanted rhea to do so that their claims would be 100% correct

[spiritsoulandbody]

#DailyDevotion When The LORD Has Had Enough Of A People

#DailyDevotion When The LORD Has Had Enough Of A People 1The vision of Obadiah. The Lord GOD says this about Edom. We have heard the news from the LORD. A messenger is sent among the nations saying, “Come, let us go and fight against her.” Who was Obadiah? Many scholars think he was an Edomite prophet sent by the LORD to warn Edom of their coming judgement if they didn't repent. There is a lot of debate as to when Obadiah existed. Some claim it was during the time of the Assyrians, others at the time of Babylonians and still others, when the exiles from Babylon began returning from exile and started rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem. You may remember Edom is the descendents of Esau (Gen. 25) who was the brother of Jacob aka, Israel. Jacob Jacob bought Esau's inheritance for a pot of beans and then deceived Isaac into giving him Esau's blessing. So there was strife between these two nations even in the womb, hence the name Jacob. Edom would grow into a nation during the time Israel was in Egypt. Their kingdom was south, south west of Israel, whose border had very high cliffs. During the time of Jehoram they bought Judahite captives. It was during this time, Edom broke off its servitude from the kings of Judah. During the time of the Babylonians, the Edomites took advantage of Judah. They attacked it, took spoils and captives. They killed men fleeing from the Babylonians. When the Jews returned from exile, they harrassed the Jews while they were trying to rebuild the wall. Since Edom was still a kingdom during this time, I tend to believe Obadiah was written around this time. It is written in Mal. 1:2, ““I have loved Jacob, 3but Esau I hated.” The LORD now warns Edom, He is sending the nations against her. This is because of Edom's treatment of his brother Jacob, i.e. Israel and Judah. So Edom eventually falls. During the Persian period, the Qedarites, followed by the Nabateans, ran the Edomites out of their territory into southwestern Judea. They would lose their name as the Greeks and Romans take control of the area they resided calling it Idumaea, then receiving the name Idumeans. You may recognize this name as the Herods were called Idumeans. These people either by choice or force, became converts to Judaism, while retaining a separate identity. Ultimately, as we can see today, they are no more, according to the prophecy concerning them. Some commentators take Edom to be a figurative naming, for they see the call for the nations to go against them as something not quite fulfilled, at least, not at any one point in time. Now I do think we can use this to some extent for ourselves in our day. Edom can stand for the false Church which persecutes those who preach and teach the Gospel. If you will, we can see it as Babylon in the book of Revelation, whom the nations eventually turn against. If we take it as such, then we as the true Church can take comfort in the midst of our trials and tribulations as we stand firm, preaching and teaching repentance for our sins and the free gift of forgiveness, salvation, righteousness, and holiness bought for us by Jesus Christ by the shedding of His blood and His innocent suffering and death. Just as Jesus was humiliated, suffered and died, we as His Bride can expect nothing less. But also, as Jesus is risen from the dead and ascended to the right hand of the Father, we can look forward to our own resurrection and the inheriting of the Kingdom of God and being seated with Him on His throne. Heavenly Father, always give us the sight to see in the midst of our trials and tribulations, the ultimate purpose for which You called us and redeemed us in Christ Jesus, so we may persevere in the faith. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Read the full article

[randomnameless]

IDK if you’ve done the paralogue opening up in this chapter? 

It’s about Seteth and Rhea taking their kids out for a family outing to whack bandits !

Curious how they’ll handle this. Because if Dimitri does talk to her and it becomes clear he’s after TWSITD, what does Edelgard do? Keep insisting on war or give up and team up with Dimitri against TWSITD? It’s OOC for her to give up and let Rhea and the Kingdom live their lives, but prioritizing killing Dimitri and Rhea above even taking TWSITD down would be, eh, questionable on her end to put it lightly. Really curious to see how the writers deal with this.

:)

I can’t wait to see your review of a certain chapter later on!

Oh, look at that, Dimitri being smart. He plans on cutting off Edelgard’s supply line. Since she only uses one, that’s brilliant.

We knew since Crimson Flower that Hubert is the brains in their duo, but Hopes is an AU where she decides to take things in her own hands instead of listening to his plans about siding with Uncle’n’pals...

And it shows lol

Lamo, Shez thinks one hundred Dimitris would wipe the floor with the Empire.

Why one hundred, even 1 Dimitri can wipe the floor with them ! especially if they have only 1 supply line

FUCKING FINALLY. All the points to Ashe. Glenn didn’t die because Faerghus is toxic. He died because he wanted to protect his best friend. He argues that there’s nothing wrong with that.

B-but do you mean the Faerghus promotes toxic masculinity essay was full of shit? :(

I joked a lot about Faerghan people exchanging “knightly vows” instead of straight up marrying, but it felt good to have someone acknowledge that people swear loyalty and die to protect the people they love.

Of course, you will have very different opinions about knighthood and loyalty in, hm, other routes.

More language learning lessons. She wants to learn the language to help Brigid diplomatically. It’s too bad she can’t get a teacher in-house.

Hahaha - remember how in Houses, Hubert said some nobles considered her to look like a “caged animal” or something?

TFW the Faerghus Prince spends time to learn a different language and help his new “friend” to learn it, meanwhile the Adrestian Princess eats sweets while her hostages has to learn everything by herself.

The more you learn about Sylvain, the less sense he makes defecting to the Empire.

This game made me appreciate Sylvain, which I didn’t think possible after his depiction in FE16!

Wait, Edelgard FINALLY told him about Thales? Girl, you (maybe?) could’ve spared all of Fodlan a lot of pain if you just said that earlier.

Who cares about Fodlan when you can care about restoring Adrestia to its former glory??

Dimitri just whipping the magic away. He’s so cool in all of these cutscenes.

His plot armor magically increased his res stat?

AG really is going to go there! TWSITD is really the big bad, not Edelgard.

Sure Nergal was the guy controlling everything from the shadows, but does it mean Marquis Laus can get away scot free with all the shit he pulled?

Will Supreme Leader have to face the consequences of her war??

Oh, Ferdinand’s dad, Duke Aegir is now in control? What happened to Edelgard? (also, I sorta love how so many dads got whitewashed, but they went full evil with this guy still lamo)

Remember Ferdie’n’Lysithea’s paralogue in FE16?

Poor Ludwig was, imo, retconned in Hopes - even if a certain plot point will be revealed later on - which oddly coincides with Hopes nuking Ionius out of the cast ; in Houses Ludwig was more of a Numida than a Lekain, in Hopes, he is really presented as a stupider version of Lekain.

I think you’ll learn more about his motivations in SB... and how they don’t coincide with what we learn in FE16.

Is TWSITD controlling Edelgard? Lamo, that’s one creative way to write her out of the story without letting her team up with Dimitri or choosing TWSITD over giving up conquest.  

And the answer is... no!!! We’re in a Fodlan game, after all!

Let me present you... Supreme Puppet ! 

It really felt like the writers wanted a way to justify why Dimitri wouldn’t behead her on spot for starting the war and invading Faerghus and allying/cozying with the people who murdered his father and brought ruin to the Kingdom - so they took the “surprise brainwash!!” route - can you really hold any grudge against her when she is now manipulated and nothing more than a puppet?

I guess I’ll rant later at the end of the route, but this “surprise brainwash” really felt like the easy way out to... give Supreme Leader a pass for everything she pulls out in this game.

Azure Gleam Ch 9

More Azure Gleam to come. So far it's doing everything I wished AM did or had time for.

STORY

Oh, the title includes "Reunion." I'm guessing Dimitri and Edelgard talk again?

Curious how they'll handle this. Because if Dimitri does talk to her and it becomes clear he's after TWSITD, what does Edelgard do? Keep insisting on war or give up and team up with Dimitri against TWSITD? It's OOC for her to give up and let Rhea and the Kingdom live their lives, but prioritizing killing Dimitri and Rhea above even taking TWSITD down would be, eh, questionable on her end to put it lightly. Really curious to see how the writers deal with this.

The Empire is stalemating at Arianrhod. Shez is worried about supplies, but Dedue thinks they need to prepare more first.

Oh, look at that, Dimitri being smart. He plans on cutting off Edelgard's supply line. Since she only uses one, that's brilliant.

Shez thinks if Dimitri pulls this off, he wins the war.

So I'm betting the big enemy will switch from Edelgard to TWSITD. It would be cool for Edelgard to team up with Dimitri against TWSITD, but I doubt that'll happen. She'll probably die or go and join up with TWSITD or escape but the big focus will still be TWSITD and Edelgard a footnote on the way there, hence powering up the Empire after Dimitri would've otherwise taken them out.

Feels like this is going to end part 1, like how GW just ended.

Oh, Claude!? First time we've seen him in a while in AG. Oh, shit, is Claude going to bail out Edelgard for no real reason except writers said so? Because it would make no sense to help the Imperialists if he wants the Alliance to remain standing.

He's wondering what the Alliance will do, what's best for them and trying to predict who's going to win.

Oh, wow, I really expected AG to get the 1 battle deal this time, but nope. Good.

MAP/SIDE BATTLES

Lamo, Shez thinks one hundred Dimitris would wipe the floor with the Empire.

I got to compliment Dedue. Life complete.

Yuri sold Edelgard a tip about a secret passage. He saying some skeevy stuff about that count. I'm betting we'll recruit him this time. He doesn't seem to like Count Rowe's general dude lol.

Dimitri saying he's not good around children in the expedition dialogue is funny, since it's fairly cannon that they like him.

INGRID & RODRIGUE B SUPPORT

Aww, Ingrid got to return to Fraldarius territory and went down memory lane. Again, another support that reinforces how tied all the Faerghus team are together.

It struggles with having enough food too. I think it's the influx of refugees causing the shortages.

Cool details. There's new shops and good roads.

She finally faced it and wants to keep visiting it. Of course, Rodrigue says she should.

Haha, Ingrid ordered Glenn around. Not surprised.

And Rodrigue says it's ok to show weakness and not just worry about pushing forward. He's such a team dad. And very much in line with the themes in the Blue Lions.

ASHE & DEDUE B SUPPORT

Dedue made his own tea blend!!! Ok, Seteth officially has competition for #1 husbando in Fodlan now.

OFC he made it for Dimitri, lamo.

You would forever be second place to Dimitri with Dedue lol.

The tea reminds Ashe of some Lonato made.

And OFC it's a tea to calm nerves. He made it for Dimitri after all.

ASHE & DIMITRI B SUPPORT

Dimitri is checking on Ashe, esp with his role as a knight. Everyone's been nice to him, which is good, but Ashe is still unsure of himself.

Dimitri pretty much knighted everyone who's now his knights.

Ashe has a more romantic view of knighthood. Someone who's loyal to the king and protects their leader and their people.

Then Dimitri's like, naw, they're here to kill people. Loyalty is only there to control them.

Very in-character for both of them.

Dimitri's like go ahead and follow that code, but don't die for it. Now he's talking about Glenn. And how he wants Ashe to choose life over loyalty.

So THAT'S why Ashe defects. He's so miserable about it.

FUCKING FINALLY. All the points to Ashe. Glenn didn't die because Faerghus is toxic. He died because he wanted to protect his best friend. He argues that there's nothing wrong with that.

Ashe respects Dimitri so much. He's so wholesome.

DEDUE & PETRA B SUPPORT

More language learning lessons. She wants to learn the language to help Brigid diplomatically. It's too bad she can't get a teacher in-house.

Dedue is sorta doing the same for Duscur, though not royalty so not as much power.

Dimitri wants to make Duscur independent again. I'm so glad AG is paying more attention to Duscur.

Petra also realizes that Dedue is more than just Dimitri's bodyguard.

Giving these two a support was a brilliant idea.

DIMITRI & SYLVAIN B SUPPORT

Aww, Dimitri didn't want House Gautier's opinion, but Sylvain's. Their relationship is underrated.

Lamo, Dimitri is speaking with others about bringing commoners into the nobility. This game does a shit job justifying Edelgard's war if everyone is on their way to doing what she's killing them for not doing.

The main concern is lack of crests. And funny that it's Sylvain defending them and Dimitri saying it doesn't matter. The more you learn about Sylvain, the less sense he makes defecting to the Empire.

Lamo, the Kingdom is already discussing the possibility of getting rid of inheritance.

Sylvain only shows the political side of himself to Felix and Dimitri.

I love this support. Dimitri is just showing Sylvain with compliments and expressing how much he relies on Sylvain (which is very healthy for him to admit). Then Sylvain is admiring Dimitri back.

DIMITRI & FELIX B SUPPORT

My first Dimilix support in Hopes. It better be good.

Ah, starts with Felix calling Dimitri an idiot, these two are just so . . . I love them. One of the most complex relationships in all of Fire Emblem. And I live for it.

"Idiot, let me worry for you!!!" Is the most Dimilix(Felix) thing ever.

Felix has a mother, everyone. I think she got mentioned before, but power to her for actually existing!!!

Then Felix gets mad at Dimitri for worrying about him and not his own issues, It's the most Felix ever. And then Dimitri's like, oh, that's not possible.

Oh, no, now Dimitri is going off about revenge. And Felix isn't thrilled about it.

Oh, shit is getting real. Dimitri thinks Felix might hate him because he could do nothing when Glenn died and feels so guilty over it.

Felix "I don't hate you, ok." Haha, I love these two idiots.

Dimitri has such horrible survivor's guilt. He feels so guilty for surviving and that Glenn died protecting him. It makes me wonder what kind of hell his head went through when he thought Dedue died in Houses (or actually does die, including CF). That has to be like worst nightmare shit.

Felix is like, ugh, just eat!!

MAIN BATTLE

Shamir and Catherine! Together, as it should be.

Miklan is here too. Still not sure how to feel about this. Ohh, he's the one who cut ties?

He's starting to come around to liking working for the army though. Shamir called him out for having a bad attitude too lol.

Annette is so much shorter than the rest of the Blue Lions lol. She's standing next to Dedue. Who thought that was a good idea. They can barely fit into the same frame lamo.

So Persuade Shamir and Yuri are strategy options. I was confused until I saw Shamir was an allied general and Yuri an enemy one. Getting to both of them, obviously.

I'm guessing Miklain's death is unavoidable? Eh. Seems pointless to bring him back at all.

Isn't this were Ingrid died in SB? Worst moment in the game so far. 

Aha, cool! Cutscene time. And seems it's cannon here that Dimitri defeated Edelgard in combat. He just keeps racking up the badassery in this game. 

So glad Dimitri didn't just let her run. So annoying when heroes do that, except Thales is here to fuck things up. 

Wait, Edelgard FINALLY told him about Thales? Girl, you (maybe?) could've spared all of Fodlan a lot of pain if you just said that earlier. 

Dimitri just whipping the magic away. He's so cool in all of these cutscenes. 

Thales bullshit magic abilities ruining a potential team up. (Could they ever? She seems hellbent on taking over his country so . . .)

Oh, hey, hegemon. 

AG really is going to go there! TWSITD is really the big bad, not Edelgard. Don't misunderstand, Edelgard is the superior villain. But since Dimitri gets two stories, I'm glad one will focus on TWSITD and (hopefully) send Edelgard to the backseat. Bc him vs her again, what's the point? 

Aw, Shez saving Dimitri. These two have such a wholesome relationship. I really like it more than I expected too. 

Aww, this stuff with Shez and Dimitri just keeps piling up. Shez feels so worried about having the same powers, but Dimitri just doesn't care. Still trusts her. It's so sweet. 

I also love how Shez has some personal involvement in this route. It's kinda missing in the other two. 

Dimitri - "I alone-" Felix shuts that down, ofc. Good though. I'm glad seeing Ingrid and Annette speak up. It's obvious to remember how Felix and Dedue got their lives changed, but so glad they called back to what Ingrid and Annette dealt with too. 

Felix saying Dimitri's name so soft when he's hurt. My heart. 

Oh, Ferdinand's dad, Duke Aegir is now in control? What happened to Edelgard? (also, I sorta love how so many dads got whitewashed, but they went full evil with this guy still lamo). 

Is TWSITD controlling Edelgard? Lamo, that's one creative way to write her out of the story without letting her team up with Dimitri or choosing TWSITD over giving up conquest.  

(sorry for the weird formatting, some of this is copy and pasted)

xxxxx

[fantasyinvader]

So, I was thinking more about Edelgard's Japanese line in Hopes about her getting rid of Fodlan's "absurdity." I recalled another line changed from the Japanese, how Edelgard is said to want to "reforge" the world. Or rather, how it's supposed to be that Edelgard wants to put the world back to what it once was. And I was thinking on this, what was the world like before the Empire and Church? The answer is the Fodlan ruled by Nemesis, who Edelgard sees as a champion of humanity. That's when it hit me.

Nemesis was an Agarthan puppet, and the Agarthans don't see most people as humans. From what the game says during it's info dumps, they got drunk on their own power and viewed themselves as gods.

Rhea:Eventually people began to think of themselves as gods and challenged the progenitor god herself to battle.

Adding to this is the note from an Elite, who viewed his Relic as "sacred".

My life, along with my sacred weapon, will unquestionably be forfeit. My dear son and daughter… I hope you can forgive me one day.

(Also I like how in the Japanese, the final page says "What exactly did King Nemesis do to Seiros? Was it a mistake to go along with his story?" Aka, should I have believed what this guy said?".)

The usage of "sacred" is consistent with the Japanese, which would connect it with some sort of religion. This era, which we were led to believe was an era of humanity ruling itself, had it's own gods of sorts. The Agarthans gave the Elites the Relics and the Crests, the former we know they viewed as sacred, which would connect it to their religion as well as Rhea's claim that the Agarthans thought themselves as gods.

Edelgard wants to get rid of the Nabateans, the Church and any influence they've had on Fodlan. But that just means she wants to go back to a time when the Agarthans were viewed as gods by the people. Sure, she'll get rid of the Agarthans themselves when she has no more use for them, but society will still be based on her trying to return things to the way they were during the time of Nemesis. It'll be based on Agarthan ideals. Suddenly, a "world for humanity" makes a lot more sense.

Just trading the teachings of the goddess, stuff like not abusing your power and using it to help others, for the teachings of a bunch of racist dickheads, that's all Edelgard is doing. No wonder Mercedes doesn't support her new church in Flower.

[fireemblems24]

Scarlet Blaze Ch 15 (Final)

Last one, everyone! After this, I finally get to play Spiritfarer which I got on . . . Christmas 2022.

NARRATION

Last chapter. Finally. Killing so many people in this route is really awful. Especially since you just . . . don't in the other two.

I think the last chapter will take place at the monastery.

Oh, great, does this mean I have to protect Bernie's dad in this route? I hope Rhea kills him, like gets this badass cut scene where she cuts him down for perverting her faith by using it as a propaganda tool.

So TWSITD showed up and is attacking Rhea and the Empire.

They're mostly after the "beasts" (aka Nabateans? Or humans?)

I wish this meant that we teamed up with Rhea, but we know Edelgard would team up with TWSITD first.

Catherine and Rhea got a cool moment together though.

Yep, we have to protect Count Varley, gross.

MAP

No side battles! This final chapter will be super quick, which is nice.

I'm VERY curious what the Golden Deer students say after Claude's moment last chapter lamo.

And if any Lions mention Sylvain :((((

OMG, Ignatz is savage. He only cares about painting the battle. No mention of Claude.

Yuri wishes he could kill Varley instead of save him. Good for him. He really feels more suited for AG/AM/SS/VW than SB/CF/GW.

Well, at least Mercedes mentioned Sylvain. And Ingrid and Annette. Saying they died for what they believed in and admires them for it, since she could never.

Poor Ashe is having a crisis. Still had no idea wtf he's doing in the Empire's war camp. Honestly, this game made him so much more interesting.

Linhardt also has no fucking clue why he's here. I swear he does nothing but complain every map (in a funny way) and wish he was doing literally anything else.

Lorenz is more concerned about his future bc of Claude than worried about him. Man, guy really has no one loyal to him lol.

DOROTHEA & CASPAR C

I swear I did a much better job getting supports in GW and AG.

Caspar has a bunch of books, and Dorothea's horrified by the idea that he'll use them in training.

Caspar plans to read them. Dorothea teases him. Apparently Lin made similar comments.

Dorothea makes him promise not to hurt the books. A woman after my own heart.

Caspar's like, did you know my dad reads! Dorothea's like, yeah . . . how do you think he got his role if he didn't.

Dorothea tells a story about an unlearned commander who studied strategy in books and improved to become legendary.

The only stupid part of this is thinking you can read and understand complicated books in 5 days and become an expect in 5 days. For once, Caspar was the smart one being like, uh, I need more time.

MERCEDES & LYSITHEA B

This support is SB locked, but neither characters are Eagles. It may be the only support like that in the game. But, hey, new Mercie content, I'll take it!

Mercedes comes across Lysithea in the kitchen, trying and failing to cook.

The fruits she wanted to use are moldy though. Lysithea has an idea to use something else for the fruit - a sugar syrup.

Lysithea has dedicated her time to learning how to cook because of how good Mercedes' cooking was, so she credits Mercie for the sugar syrup, which she learned because of that.

Baking also helped Lysithea learn the importance of taking breaks.

Mercie calls her a wizened old grandma, lol.

They arrange a tea party.

SHEZ & LINHARDT A

It starts with Linhardt saying they haven't learned anything about Shez's powers. I wonder how funny this sounds if you get it after the special chapters.

Linhardt says it's find because the war is almost over, so there's less need and chance for the powers to go out of control.

Shez pretty consistently wants to continue working as a mercenary after the battle.

He also seems to have no desire to stay in Enbarr lol.

Linhardt wants Shez as a personal bodyguard. Honestly, not a bad choice.

Then Linhardt says something like "spending the rest of my life with some random bodyguard" and then makes an excuse to leave. so he wants to stick with Shez for life. It's kind of sweet.

EDELGARD & PETRA A

Their only support

Edelgard comes across Petra praying to Bigid gods. In Brigid they pray in nature rather than in churches in Fodlan.

Edelgard asks Petra why she's risking her life in the war because it's bad for Brigid.

So Brigid will only be freed if Petra remains alive.

To be fair, it's because she doesn't know the new leader. Still feels a bit icky for Petra.

Edelgard warns about "tricks" the enemy will use. She really has a beef with anyone using tactics.

Petra just says she's happy to fight and can't run while everyone else remains and fights.

Edelgard says she can't back out, which true, but she could've just not started one. But that's in the past I guess.

Overall, came across better than the Houses one where Petra didn't seem like an equal.

EDELGARD/LYSITHEA/HAPI PARALOGUE

My plan is to have Edelgard and Shez make the other two adjuncts and see if I can't beat the paralogue that way.

It's about TWSITD, which isn't surprising given that character list.

God, I've made SB Shez so fucking stupid. Never understanding anything. It's so funny.

So is this about Cornelia? They found one of her old hideouts.

I had Shez shrug about joining. Hapi got offended.

They're talking about Hubert. I wish he was here. He's my best unit.

I wish Cornelia showed up. She's so fun, but sadly she did not.

They didn't find anything. Hapi was mostly chill about it. Edelgard and Lysithea were more bothered.

Shez could show concern or change the subject. Obviously I made him change the subject since SB!Shez is not intelligent.

CASPAR/LINHARDT PARALOGUE

Like the last time, I just plan to adjunct Caspar and let Shez and Linhardt do all the work.

They're arguing if Caspar saw a ghost or not. Linhardt remains unconvinced.

Lamo, their dads showed up and Linhardt's dad called him a "fountain of positivity" when he brought up their could die any day.

Linhardt is also upset that he has to help.

We're hunting down Empire people who've turned against Edelgard.

I had Shez not want to go lol.

The main battle changed to defeating their dads. I don't think I'm supposed to take this paralogue seriously.

Linhardt had no fun.

Bergliez gave Caspar some gaunlets, and I could either be happy for him or jealous. I obviously picked jealous since it's fun to pick the dick answer lol.

FINAL BATTLE

Why is the S rank reward Edelgard's axe? This is the last battle, right? Is there some post game stuff? Because I'm so ready for this to be done (I don't think I'll do it).

Funny, Edelgard is the one defending the monastery this time, and Varley. Imagine your final battle being about protecting Varley. Ugh.

Only 40 points for the final battle?

Just killed Catherine :(

Cyril just showed up. Rhea's so concerned. Not looking forward to killing a child :((( He died too. This is by far the bloodiest route. I swear no one even dies in AG, and in GW it's only Sylvain's dad.

This can't be it, right? That was too easy. And Cyril as the final boss makes no sense. I'm betting it's a Thales and Rhea fight.

Rhea turned into a dragon. Badass. Glad she was the final boss poper and not Thales.

Spoke too soon. I think they're both here now.

Think I beat it. We're at a cut scene now. Thales is doing magic shit. Rhea attacked him and just ignored Edelgard and Shez like they weren't worth her notice lol.

Wait, that's it?

Rhea pushes Thales off a cliff? So RHEA's the hero??

There's no way they could've survived that - Edelgard. My girl, Rhea is a fucking dragon and Thales can warp. I have bad news from you. Also, Byleth survived a fall too so . . .

What happened to Dimitri? I don't think I killed Claude either?

Is that really it? The war just keeps going. The war just keeps on with no end in sight. Hahahaha. You mean I played how many hours for THAT? I'm going to laugh my ass off if all 3 routes end like this. What a cheap way to avoid killing any of the lords.

OMG. What a stupid ending.

Except for Rhea. She got the big hero moment lol.

I kept waiting for another battle. Esp since there's an S rank reward that's Edelgard's axe, so Idk what's going on.

OMG, this is going to take FOREVER. They're showing the MVP of every single side battle and not just the main ones. I'm only at ch 6.

There was a lot more variety in MVP than I thought. I thought it would be the Hubert show, but it's pretty varied.

Ok, so around ch 10 turns into the Hubert show. I like seeing battle data though, so I sat through it.

Ok, so you get a letter from the person you get a whistle from. Aww, I eventually won Hubert's trust, and he admits he and the army needs us. Glad I picked him.

Wait, no paired endings? That blows. I hope this isn't a new trend since Engage didn't do that either (I love paired endings)

Ok, so it looks like some stuff would carry over to another playthrough on this file. So, in the future, I'd replay AG over my GW or SB playthrough to at least get 2 on the same one. I can't see myself replaying SB or GW. It's not like the story would matter since I could just skip it, but the gameplay is pretty much the same, so why not play the route with my favorites and the most unit choices on top of that?

So you can carry over supports and even unit level. So I could play Dimitri as the absurd level he's at in level one if I saved over my AG file? Because that would be funny. Probably boring. But funny.

Still feels good. One down. Two to go.

xxxx

[fayesdiary]

Engage sequel idea has been buzzing over my head so im jotting it down here before i go to bed and forget it

Takes place at least a millennia after Engage

Elyos has been doing better than ever, with the four countries having forged strong friendships and Gradlon having been reformed under Veyle's rule;

But recently there have been a lot of strange happenings: people seemingly from other words just getting dropped to Elyos out of nowhere (and then became refugees turned denizens of Gradlon), the Emblems are apparently reawakening but acting weird, some new Emblems have been sighted and... The landscape itself seems to have changed?

Story would have two routes taking place in the same continuity similar to Echoes: Alear's, where they once again gather the royalty from Elyos to investigate the sudden changes and the old Emblem's strange behavior, and Veyle's, where the Fell Queen and her band of adopted immigrant misfits tries to solve the mystery behind what is pulling people from all the other worlds, the new Emblems' origin.

Concluding with a final story where the Fell Family come to face the truth behind the Emblems, their true origin and existential nightmare and a dark page in the history of Elyos that predates even Sombron's arrival.

AKA Emblems are fucked up. Addressing their seeming alterations in personality to make them more compliant, them being allowed to remember but never truly miss their loved ones and homeworld, and most importantly the fact they're replicas of existing people doomed to live in a ring and in servitude for the rest of their life and being painfully aware about it, as well as the fact they'll never be able to go home. Again, Emblems are fucked up.

New Emblems are created in a much more amateurish way by forging and using the Bond Rings from Engage. So yay, Emblems of secondary more obscure characters!

Btw, headcanon I literally just came up with, but this comes with the idea that Emblems are able to change the landscape of Elyos to reflect their memories, and do so subconciously. Hence the Paralogue maps.

Technically of smaller scope compared to Engage since there's no war going on... Which is not a bad thing imo

Both Alear and Veyle filling a role of mentors and actually alive parents. Older, wiser and with a tone of melancholy

Speaking of Veyle's group, all of them can be traced back to their home world if you pay close enough attention, although it's way more subtle than the Emblems ever were. Personally I'm down for an at least half-Nabatean who survived the Zanado massacre as that mysterious dragon orphan from Veyle's end card.

The Fell Twins are there too. Also Veyle has the Pact Ring, bite me

[butwhatifidothis]

Okay, I'm morbidly curious, how racist is this chapter? Did Cap really outdid himself here with the dehmunaizing language and rhetoric? And Sothis bless you for enduring through this trashfire. I can't believe people legitimately think this is a must recommendation to understand E**lgard's character and 3H in general with some treating it as more canon than the base game.

Okay, so. Buckle up cuz it’s a bit of a doozy

To start with the “””””””small””””””” stuff, there’s that whole “There was no name in Fodlan’s language for what to call this monstrous form” comment that is very clearly explicitly racist towards Nabateans. Ignoring the fact that Dragon Claws are a weapon in 3H and thus the concept of the word “dragon” exists in 3H’s world, which the Immaculate One is very much a staple example of and thus could easily be described with that particular word in Fodlan’s language - that “monstrous form” is just a state that Rhea’s race can naturally become as a part of their natural biology. Being unable to find the words to “properly” describe how inhuman and beastial she sees this form, when a perfect apt word literally does exist that has no racist undertones at all, would make Woobiegard, at the FUCKIN’ BEST, seem outrageously callous. But that wouldn’t be the first time she’s called Rhea a monster though:

“All that monster had to do was wear a funny hat, and spout some meaningless platitudes about mercy…

(oh, maybe she means “monster” as in Rhea as a person is a monster-)

“ And now, just like Seiros, Woobiegard was alone. Would she lose herself, just as the Saint had? Would she descend into madness, believing in her righteousness even as she damned herself? Without her loved ones, her father and Byleth, perhaps that nightmarish form, that husk she had seen in her dreams, would reveal itself — just like the Immaculate One.

(oh, well, no, not really. Describing Rhea’s other form that is natural to her biology to the mutated “nightmarish form” of the Hegemon Husk - classy!)

Then we get to this bit in Chapter 63:

“The Crests were to blame, not just because of the rapes and kidnappings and savagery that they legitimized, but because they told the world what people could be.

So, the natural blood of the Nabateans that was stolen by humans and made important to human society by humans are to blame for society’s horrific shortcomings. Humans are innocent - it’s the Nabatean’s fault for having magic blood! Humans can’t be expected to not commit genocide and steal Nabatean blood to use for their own gain, or to not directly benefit from said genocide, or to not fuck each other over in the pursuit of this stolen blood of genocide victims, or anything silly like that. We must blame the natural product of this race’s blood that they had no say in humans having. 

(also, uh, ignore that mask slip of “could be” and not “should be,” since that implies Crested humans actually do have a choice which Woobiegard very much wants people to think they don’t until she saves them)

And mind, Woobiegard, does, in fact, know about what Nemesis did, and what happened from it. Chapter 50:

[Nemesis] murdered Seiros’ entire family, in a bid for power.

She knows of the genocide, she knows that power was gotten from said genocide, she knows a human committed said genocide to gain said power - still Crests’ fault tho! If Crests (aka, Nabateans) never existed, everything would be so much better for everyone! 

And then there’s the top dog, the Big Boy, the culmination of a repeated racist sentiment vomited across the course of the fic. Woobiegard had a line waaaaay earlier in the fic that was already omega racist, right? This one, from Chapter 9:

"Of course, the Church had “mediated” that separation [of Faerghus and Adrestia], and given what Woobiegard now knew about the immortal archbishop, she strongly suspected Faerghus' independence was a pretext to keep humanity divided and weak, dependent on the Church’s protection.”

She then says this waaay later, in Chapter 63, bold mine:

"Woobiegard glared at her opponent. “You speak of betrayal, Archbishop, but who was the one who claimed to speak as the Goddess’ Voice?! Who allowed the Southern Church to ferment rebellion in the Empire, and sanctified a Holy Kingdom?” She felt the anger tumble out of her in a righteous wave. “I swore the same oath that Wilhelm did, upon the red blood and the white sword, the ancient covenant between the Hresvelgs and the Church. I promised to achieve peace for all, Crest or no Crest… have you done the same?””

So basically, her racist conspiracy theory she mentally spouted out in Chapter 9 and over the course of the fic is being given legitimacy here; she's being presented in the right for saying Rhea was wrong for separating Faerghus from Adrestia, the act of which Woobiegard believes Rhea did so that she could install herself as the shadow ruler of the country. And this coexists along other moments of Woobiegard thinking this (asterisks mine):

Chapter 49:

“As soon as I am finished retaking this continent for humanity, *the children of the Goddess will no longer control Fódlan‘s destiny.*”

Chapter 50:

She had even witnessed the secret past of this continent — the *lies and manipulations of the children of the Goddess,* infusing their faithful followers with the blood of the Immaculate One.

Chapter 50, bold not mine:

The Flame Emperor looked up at the eager face of one of the children of the Goddess, the *very rulers she had sought to overthrow.* How could this be? How could she stand alongside the Black Eagles, and fight for humanity’s future?

Chapter 53:

She turned, and saw the one figure she had hoped to avoid above all else. *Woobiegard despised the Children of the Goddess for what they had done to Fodlan — standing above, concealing the truth from the people…* despite her sobriquet, the Flame Emperor’s soul was given more to cold, icy rationality then the burning flames of hate. Yet when she looked at Flayn, some long-concealed anger roiled within her.

With all this capped off a bit earlier in Chapter 63, when Woobiegard says this in response to Rhea calling her a mutinous whelp (which, to be clear, Rhea does call Canongard in canon, least in the ENG version):

“A mutinous whelp, am I? So you admit you stand above all of us, striking down those who dare to stand against your rule.”

And she like. Says this one. Like out loud. Meaning her racism is no longer confined to just her thoughts, but spoken for the whole class to hear... and say nothing against. The closest the fic’s come to doing this before is Marianne and Seteth in Chapter 54 and the shitty things she said to him then (that the Church - aka, the Nabateans - hurt Marianne the same way Nemesis hurt them). But she'd never said that it was Nabateans as a race that were to blame (and we don't have access to her thoughts to know if that's what she thought), and also at that point in the fic the possibility still existed, however minimally, for Seteth and Flayn to change everyone’s minds. They could have shown Woobiegard that she was wrong to think of the Nabateans so horribly - and not because “there are goods ones,” but because making blanket assumptions about an entire race is, like... inherently wrong. 

But this chapter, and this quoted line, pretty much conclude that nahhh Woobiegard WAS right all along! It’s not that Seteth and Flayn showed her that Nabateans haven’t taken over the government, their whole point in joining her side was to rebuild themselves into better people as recompense for having taken over the government, with her guiding and righteous light leading them down the path of redemption! And - shot in the dark here, haven’t finished the chapter yet - should the pattern be upheld, Rhea can join them too :)

To almost be fair to the fic, Canongard also believes in the racist conspiracy theory that the Nabateans control every facet of the government and must be destroyed as a race to eradicate their influence from humans. But you see, Canongard is, y'know, wrong in believing that? And is racist for believing that? And in every route other than hers, the villain route, she gets killed by the heroes? And Rhea is saved from Canongard's clutches? Which isn't happening here: Woobiegard is right, she definitely isn't racist, and she is the one true hero. All the times she would think the most racist shit ever about Nabateans are, in this chapter, being completely validated.

Any chance for the fic's tendency to lay the blame for everyone's woes on the Nabateans' shoulders to ever be rectified has been made monumentally harder to pull off with this. This close to the end, and the protagonist is righteous in spouting their racist beliefs to the face of the persecuted minority they are trying to murder - which they are trying to do, in large part, because that character is a specific race that the protagonist explicitly says they despise. Their racist conspiracy theories are being proven "correct." The persecuted minority is definitively in the wrong and is guilty of everything the racist protagonist accused them of.

And as you can see from the quotes, Woobiegard has not been blaming just Rhea. She has not been specific about the person she despises. She very clearly says that she blames Nabateans as a whole. She very clearly states that she despises Nabateans as a whole. And that hatred for Nabateans, at least at the point of the chapter I'm at right now, is being justified as right. And in the entire narrative of this fic, Woobiegard isn't just right, she is the only person at all, in any timeline, who is ever right. 

I am prayin' on my damn knees that by the time this fic ends this shit will have the mother of all explanations as to why this ISN'T astoundingly racist on its face, but brother that's gonna need a mighty big mama to be good enough

[randomnameless]

What do you think about the fics where children of nabateans and humans are either humans or nabateans?

Fics are fics so it's basically the author's interpreration and fantasy being written, but as far as personal taste goes, it's not really my cup of tea!

Where's the fun with fantasy settings if you can't come up with mixed blood humans who sekritly (or not so sekritly) descend from some sort of other race of beings and got super powers from that deal ?

I think I ranted about it in a french post some months ago about this but it was kind of salty.

The only setting in FE where half human children were developped is Tellius with the Branded and... well, let's not go there, after all, it's the verse that tells you that racism is BaD, but miscegenation is also BaD...

In Elibe, fwiw, bar having weird mystical powers and longer lifespan than humans, but shorter than full blooded dragons, hybrids aren't generally developped (and that's taking into account Al from the manga).

That being said, in the particular context that is Fodlan and some characters' pov about Nabateans, their blood and a general discussion about what is "humanity" used to "other" sentient beings that are despised because they are "others"...

The "kids are either humans or nabateans" isn't really something I'm fond of.

But hey, fics are basically someone's takes on canon and there's no point about arguing headcanons !

Like, even with half-lizard Lycaon AUs, some people could try to explain his "died from a sudden illness" in different ways : he can be inherently prone to sickness because he is a half-lizard, or, in my hodgepodge of an AU, the "dies from a sudden illness" is a cheap cover up story to hide his assassination, at the hands of members of his dad's family because they wanted the throne and because he was a half-lizard.

We basically have two different takes, coming from two different people about a thrown away line, which creates, in substance, two differents AU/HCs/fanfics!

So, to reply to your question anon, it's not the HC i came up with and not one I like because of all the racial implication and tensions Fodlan, as a setting, has regarding coexistence.

But I'd be really pissed if anyone went to comment on a fic to say the author's headcanon is "wrong".

Now, if we're talking about people claiming to write meta or to comment canon, it's another story - but in the end, the canon answer is "10k years of lore" so we're pretty much quickly entering headcanon territory, and when people try to pretend their headcanons are canon, that's how you end up with 5 years of discourse lol