#sure Willy is Willy but if Enbarr was supposed to be anything like its real world inspiration

[randomnameless]

I guess Fodlan, as it's written, would imply that the "sudden illnesses" hitting Maurice's scions would be Agarthans doing Agarthan things, because per Nopes, they're the root of everything wrong (tm) in this verse.

Even if Houses suggested, with the rando who insults Marianne in her paralogue, that normal people, aka Bob and Carol, would also be ones to hunt Maurice's descendants believing them to be cursed (a throwback to the Loptyr blooded people and the witch hunts from Jugdral?).

However, Catherine in her support with Linhardt mentions something similar to Momo's ramblings, Catherine says she feels the relic "eating away" her soul, Maurice blames his urges on his "nabatean blood" and in the notes believed to have been written by him, there's a mention of a body falling to "ashes" and "evil", would the "evil" here mean the Nabatean/Relic "eating away" at the wielder's soul? 10k years of lore are 10k years of lore so we will never know the end of this story, but I don't think Momo or the Nabatean he "borrowed power" from are special in this situation, it's possible Catherine after overusing her sword could become a sentient black beast, much like Claude and his gang after, just like Maurice, bathing in the blood of a saint (in Nopes).

But as you noted, there's a link between Thales, Supreme Leader and the Crest of the Beast.

Is it only metaphorical, as in Supreme Leader is doubly called a beast, first by Dimitri (more explicit in the JP version of Tru Piss) and, in a way, by Thales who gave her a "beast" themed weapon, which is actually a mockery of a relic, since Aymr is fake one (it needs Agarthium to be repaired!) - sure it'd be part of the all those clues taking inspiration from buddhism telling the player that Supreme Leader's path is the wrong one that completely flew over the localised versions (granted I wonder how you could accurately localise the "beast path" in a game without adressing the entire context!) for a Doylist reason...

Or it's maybe Thales who realised how Momo still managed to keep his sanity after transforming unlike other random crest beasts (but Maurice is specifically noted to have been the only one who transformed with his relic!) so he thought "why not" and designed Hegemongard to work around a similar crest stone?

It'd be the cheapest explanation, but come on, we're talking about the same devs who gave Marianne the power to speak to animals... when Linhardt and Hapi's support chain mention that this power was originally Timotheos'... Was the DLC retconning Marianne's existence 8 months after the release of the base game, or what?

--

As for Luca not having a crest, maybe he shared his crest with another Nabatean (maybe he was another water dragon but Indech was more well-known around?) so every "water dragon sign" became "Crest of Indech" instead of being "Crest of Luca".

The identity of the Saint said to have been slained by Maurice, Nopes implies Momo killed them during the battle of Gronder (in 46? 45 years before Tailtean?) but concerning the number of saints, well, the FE16 artbook has this thing :

The first coffin on the left mentions... 16 saints???

(the one below mentions 4 "holy warriors", I guess they're the 4 Saints aka Cichol'n'co).

Was Luca one of the "16 saints"? Was he a shifter, who were the other 15 ? Gajus, Marcelle and Iris and the other named golems, were all saints Nabateans or some of them were hybrids or even humans with crests? Was Flayn's mom one of those 16 saints?

Everything's fair game since we won't have confirmation about this stuff (but we sure needed umbrellas or Fraud's real name revealed in an interview bcs who gaf about lore from the game, especially when it concerns nabateans?)

That all those accidents are just them going after anyone who may have actual Nabatean heritage.

That's maybe me cooking nonsense with the Nuvelles being Nabateans hybrids, but that'd fit with their "need" to hide who they are, aka Noa's scions from the Empire itself, if they think the Empire is compromised by Agarthans.

Or, if we want to hc a Fodlan where "everything wrong" doesn't have a single cause, I hc'd that humans would be worried about hybrid nabateans existing, since their existence would threaten/ruin the classicist system they tried to base their countries on (especially Adrestia) : if Rhea's perfectly happy living on her rock, who's to say a Nabatean hybrid, even if it's not one who has a crest of Seiros, wouldn't be a threat to the Emperor who's supposed to rule over Fodlan because of the covenant of the red blood and white sword + claiming to be Seiros and Willy's descendants?

(then Faerghus happens, and they're even more pissed because instead of sitting on her rock doing nothing but preaching nonsense, Rhea now meddles in "human affairs" to prevent further escalation especially since Loog defeated/killed the Emperor instead of supporting Adrestia's right to continue their blood games with northern barbarians)

We know at some point Emperors became paranoiac about Nabateans "sekritly controlling humanity", but I guess, due to their resentment towards Rhea after Faerghus + Agarthans telling them stuff + maybe the entire hybrid!Lycaon fallout that is only kept secret to the masses, I could see them participate and/or hunt everyone who has a chance to be Nabatean!blooded, and not just with a "crest".

@randomnameless

Something caught my eye with Maurice the other day. According to Hopes, in the document titled Crestological Mysteries,

“Whenever it became known that someone possessed this detestable Crest, they would suddenly fall ill or meet their end in an untimely accident. Inevitably, the Crest became an unspoken curse...“

“Suddenly fall ill” or untimely accident at this point makes me curious about the involvement of TWSITD. If someone is exposed to have this Crest, TWSITD step in to remove them from the gene pool, like out of all the Crests they want this one to die out. Not helping matters is that they used the Crest Stone of Maurice when making Aymr, and Thales chucks it at Edelgard when he captures her in Azure Gleam.

At this point, I’m willing to bet that Edelgard’s Hegemon Husk form is the result not just of bringing out the full power of her two Crests, but also the Agarthans using it to transform her (And then Thales using their techniques to control Edelgard like a typical Crest Beast). Something about that Crest in particular, one that gives Marianne the ability to communicate with animals, turns even people with Crests into Crest Beasts but still allows them to retain their minds (though Edelgard seems off after her transformation, likely due to her Crests not matching). Maybe what happened to Maurice isn’t because he overused his Relic, but simply because of the specific Crest he had?

Also, it mentions Maurice killing a “holy warrior.” So, a Saint. Thinking he was the one who killed Saint Luca, considering we know the other Saints and Apostles survived. But the strange thing is, there is no Crest associated with Luca and he was implied to be a shapeshifter.

“...As another example, though much said about him is likely fiction, we have Saint Luca and his many offspring. The man loved love, and had great affection for the many children he brought into the world. However, appearances can be deceiving. Was he truly the comely saint? If we consider that perhaps he was simply using some sort of power to change his appearance, then...”

What happened here? If he had many offspring, you’d think his Crest would be a little more common, and this is based on how they were seen by the people of the Empire. Luca was having children with humans. And then there’s Maurice and his sons being said to have sown his wild oats, which is why his Crest just pops up from time to time...

Sothis refers to Flayn as “The Kind One,” but it comes off as she assumes Flayn is another Nabatean in a body she doesn’t recognize. It’s implied Sothis confused Flayn for her mother, The Kind One that Sothis created. We also know there are at least two Crest Stones of Maurice, while there are two Relics associated with the Crest of Lamine (the Rafail Gem and the Ichor Scroll) and the Crest of Charon (Thunderbrand and Suttungr's Mystery). Think the best explanation for this is that Blutgang was made out of one of Luca’s childre with another Nabatean, then Luca fought Maurice during the War of Heroes and died. The Saint that had many children died to a weapon made out of one of his.

The Crest of Luca becomes known as the Crest of the Beast.

“...The Crest of the Beast was inherited by the wild oats sown by Maurice and his sons. They lived on in the shadows of various clans and families, and in particular lords who bore a grudge towards the Empire.”

But at the same time, people who are known to have the Crest end up dying due to the Agarthans. Maybe the answer to why they target the Crest isn’t because of the Crest, but because it could also come from Luca himself. That all those accidents are just them going after anyone who may have actual Nabatean heritage.

[kendrixtermina]

One thing that felt uncomfortable to go along with in the CF route for me was when Edelgard lies about what happened at Arianrhod to her closest allies (Black Eagle Strike Force) and blames it on the church. Can you give some insight as to why she does this? Especially when Edelgard criticizes the church for lying to the people of Fodlan, but isn’t she doing it here?

That’s certainly a moment that is genuinely ambiguous / a valid point of criticism and something I’d laud a whistleblower for exposing if it were a RL politician, but also the sort of realpolitik / appearance management that has taken place in most RL wars. 

Once you’re the leader of anything, allowing panic, division, etc. at bad moments comes with its costs. Of course this is hardly a carte blanche (see: Beating down legit protesters for superficial “order”), but neither is it a factor that can be ignored completely.

At the point of the Arianrhod attack Edelgard was one month away from seizing control of the landmass and ending the large-scale fighting, having one enemy taken out (the Church) and being able to turn all her resources on the other (the Agarthans)

The agarthans at this point know they’re losing control of Edelgard and they’re not stupid enough to have any illusions about her loyalty. So they fire a warning shot to demonstrate their superior weaponry. Arundel makes a thinly veiled threat to fire it on Enbarr. 

Of course at this point he basically gave away his location and allowed Edelgard & Hubert to come up with countermeasures, but they don’t want him to know that yet, their strategy involves that they keep being underestimated, let the Agarthans keep thinking that the “beasts” have no counter for the nukes pointed at their heads. 

But they still destroyed half a fortress killing the ppl inside. If she reveals that she’s got a rogue faction infiltrating her ranks that’s firing frightening superweapons nilly willy, there will be chaos outrage and disunity right before the final battle. If she doesn’t make a statement at all and declares it a mystery, no one will believe it and her own faction will get the blame throughout the country. So what does she do? Pin it on the enemy she is currently fighting anyways. The purpose here is not to reveal the Agarthan situation too early so they can focus on the church for now. 

It’s unclear if this was ever revealed to the public (probably not, I don’t think she’d cause a stir on principle alone) but the ending cards make it quite clear that the Strike Force was let in on the Agarthan situation later and helped her mop them up. 

Yeah, it’s defamation, an indisputable  textbook government cover up and maybe even technically a kind of propaganda, but her casus belli existed before it’s not like she’s basing it on the lie, and in most wars throughout history the factions have hidden or made a spin of failures & mishaps and made the enemy look bad. 

There are certainly many historical examples of such actions creating problems, such as fueling lingering resentments or creating general mistrust that can led to real information not being believed etc. so it’s by no means a safe action that is no big deal and I can see how it could be a legit dealbreaker for some, you certainly weren’t supposed to be 100% comfortable with it, or anything on the CF route, everyone involves is well aware that they’re doing ugly, costly things because (or so they see it) the alternatives are all worse. In that sense it’s the most self-aware one. It’s about actually looking at the bottom line of consequences, not what makes you feel like a hero. 

At the same time, doing things like that that squander her moral credibility genuinely IS a flaw in Edelgard’s leadership style - it’s probably why more ppl didn’t believe her manifesto, “she already lied to us cooperating with these shady guys”, making it look like a ‘he said she said’ situation to the wider public that can’t go & confirm the evidence for themselves. This is why Claude thinks he has a better shot at winning& implementing reforms in VW (”too shady for the ppl to get behind”) - just like Dimitri has no plans and Claude’s secrecy creating mistrust even when his secret plan is utterly benevolent.  Doesn’t matter how altruistic you are if you look suspicious it will have consequences I mean that’s how she loses on the other rouses, everyone ganks up on her cause she antagonized them all with suspicious actions. I’m not saying she’s any more perfect than the other 2. 

but putting that on the same scale as what Rhea did is comparing a candle to the sun. 

And maybe the Kantians in the audience will disagree with me but it can be a bit unhelpful to classify different actions of vastly different consequence and magnitude as “Lies”. There is a common principle (telling things that aren’t exactly true) but different magnitude. Clearly “The Confederacy was all great and glorious” and “I totally didn’t eat my little sister’s share of toffees” aren’t on the same level of immorality. 

Neither is below the “everythings fine and dandy” line but one is a lie about one incident for one clear purpose, and the other is creating a whole fake world view for the express purpose of control, maintaining harmful systems, suppressing any advancement of science & technology... for 1000 years. 

Scale, purpose and consequences are totally different. The arianrhod coverup coming to light would spark controversy & discussion on wether she should have done it under those circumstances; Some might change their opinion about her but overall everyone already knew that she’s not above dirty methods. If you told the average citizen of Fodland about all of Rhea’s lies, everything they know would be wrong. They would go from Adoring & worshipping her to being very confused about what’s true. 

It’s the difference between your average modern-day politician doing backroom deals with diverse industry lobbies to accomplish their other goals, and a place like Saudi Arabia. 

To get perspective here, let’s look at another example: Claude’s deceptions. 

He, too, ultimately wants what’s best for everyone and a lot of the time he decides to fool people to avoid fighting them, I don’t mean to bash him at all, but let’s look at his actions in and of themselves: 

Look at the sequence where he, Hilda & Byleth rope the church into helping them - that’s even more outright with the slimy politician tactics: He tries to downplay alliance involvement though he is totally in control, he says that “getting the church on our side will make fighting the empire look like a moral cause” implying that he doesn’t think it is one but wants to portray it as one to get ppl’s support, we’re told he made lots of promises to the merchants to get them on his side (so like that’s literal lobbyists), he installs Byleth as a figurehead, he tells the church ppl he wants to help them get back their old power when he really wants it to diminish and to drastically reorder the society.

He tells everyone he’ll help them save Rhea but while he still has basic human empathy for her & what happened to her he makes it clear he doesn’t want her to go back to being archbishop... at all. He even does this with Byleth: “Yeah, sure, teach we’re totally gonna save her”  though in their case he tries to hint that she’s not to be trusted for their own good. Despite his dishonesty, he’s actually a very good friend to them imho. (#broTP)

In the end the power struggle between Claude and Edelgard isn’t personal nor a righteous struggle - he’s just taking advantage of the chaos she caused and he needs the seat of power to reach his own goal. He thinks he can do it better and she’s in the way (and to be fair, she thinks the same about him) 

It’s your classic slimy politician: “he’s pretending to be for family values etc thing but really he wants power & is in cahoots with economic interests and he won’t do what he promised” etc. ... except with the plot twist that he’s deeply good and not actually all that ruthless.   In a sense he’s as much a total subverted trope as Edelgard.

So doesn’t he have the right to criticise Rhea either? Or do you see how, while not per perfect, he’s miles better and not remotely the same?

Edelgard isn’t 100% truthful, but by and large, she made her intentions very clear with the pamphlets and stuff (even if it meant antagonizing ppl who were against that) and all her soldiers generally know what they’re fighting for and are going to get out of it if they support her, or what the consequences will be if they fail, even if she kept some of the “how” to herself. 

Which isn’t to say that Claude ever makes ppl act against their interests even if it’s sometimes what he sees as their interests.

Under Rhea’s rule no one knew what the government’s doing, why it’s doing it, or to some degree, even that she IS the government... for 1000 years. There’s some cult of personality going on. She probably genuinely believes that it does benefit the sheeple to be “guided” by her, but she hasn’t even told Seteth about all she’s doing, she’s pretty much accountable to no one.

In terms of honesty, we could probably rank the lords like this: 

Dimitri (a few omissions at worst)

Seteth (lies mostly out of self-preservation)

Edelgard (some convenient secrecy here & there)

Yuri (about the same as El but I’d put him slightly higher for the fake betrayal) 

Claude (no one rly knows what he’s up to, but he gets ppl what he promised them and doesn’t outright betray them)

(very)

(big)

(gap)

Rhea (fake history, isolationist bubble, abuse of power left & right, manipulation, will smile in your face while planning to make you a meat puppet for her mom)