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gardenschedule · 11 months ago

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Quotes about John Lennon’s sexuality

This is just a reference post for convenience, not an analysis (but I’ve added some comments here and there). This is extremely long with a lot of quotes! And where there's smoke there's fire, imo.

John's (internalized) homophobia: Starting with this topic to provide context & contrast to the rest of this post

At the party the boys’ old friend Bob Wooler, the Cavern emcee, made a crack to John about his holiday. John, who’d had plenty to drink, exploded. He leapt on Bob, and by the time he was dragged off Bob had a black eye and badly bruised ribs. I took John home as fast as I could, and Brian drove Bob to the hospital.

I was appalled that John had lashed out again. I’d thought those days were over. But John was still livid, muttering that Bob had called him a queer.

Cynthia Lennon, John

[Bob Wooler had] insinuated that me and Brian had had an affair in Spain. I was out of me mind with drink. You know, when you get down to the point where you want to drink out of all the empty glasses, that drunk. And he was saying, ‘Come on, John, tell me’ – something like that – ‘Tell me about you and Brian, we all know.’ And obviously I must have been frightened of the fag in me to get so angry. You know, when you’re twenty-one, you want to be a man, and all that. If somebody said it now, I wouldn’t give a shit.

John Lennon, John Lennon: For The Record, Peter McCabe and Robert D Schonfeld

“The Beatles’ first national coverage was me beating up Bob Wooler at Paul’s 21st party because he intimated I was homosexual. I must have had a fear that maybe I was homosexual to attack him like that and it’s very complicated reasoning. But I was very drunk and I hit him and I could have really killed somebody then. And that scared me… That was in the Daily Mirror, it was the back page…”

John Lennon, talking about a (one sided) fight he had with Cavern DJ Bob Wooler at Paul’s 21st birthday party in 1963.

Everyone in Liverpool knew that Epstein was gay, and some kid in the audience screamed, ‘John Lennon’s a fucking queer!’ And John – who never wore his glasses on stage – put his guitar down and went into the crowd, shouting, ‘Who said that?’ So this kid says, ‘I fucking did.’ John went after him and BAM, gave him the Liverpool kiss, sticking the nut on him – twice! And the kid went down in a mass of blood, snot and teeth. Then John got back on the stage. ‘Anybody else?’ he asked. Silence. ‘All right then. “Some Other Guy”.’”

Lemmy Kilmister, White Line Fever: The Biography. (2004)

“Victim in 1961 was one of the first British films to deal properly and thoughtfully with the subject. Dirk Bogarde welcomed the opportunity to play the homosexual barrister, and there were some very tense scenes between him and his wife, Sylvia Syms. In one scene, Dirk Bogarde lifts his garage door at the back of the mews to discover that someone has painted graffiti about him on the wall. The Beatles were sitting together at a Cavern lunchtime session and John Lennon, who was talking to Paul and George, was making biting remarks about Victim, which was on at the Odeon. I knew by then that Brian was what he was, and I thought, ‘Well, I am surprised at John, who is 21 and a young man of the world.’ He was making such nasty, puritanical observations, but I never said anything as they didn’t know that I was listening.”

Bob Wooler, c/o Spencer Leigh, The Best of Fellas: The Story of Bob Wooler. (2002)

If somebody is going to manage me, I want to know them inside out. He told me he was a fag.

I like “Honky Tonk Woman” but I think Mick’s a joke, with all that fag dancing, I always did

I think its concept is revolutionary, and I hope it’s for workers and not for tarts and fags.

I don’t know about the “history”; the people who are in control and in power, and the class system and the whole bullshit bourgeoisie is exactly the same, except there is a lot of fag middle class kids with long, long hair walking around London in trendy clothes

I don’t dig that junkie fag scene he lives in; I don’t know whether he lives like that or what.

Casual homophobia in Lennon Remembers (Notable for the increase in homophobic language post-primary scream therapy, here is some interesting speculation about how these two things are related)

The violence that had been building inside John Lennon all night came bursting out the moment he left the studio. It struck so fast and unexpectedly that it stunned May Pang. She recalled that John was walking unsteadily toward the parking lot when suddenly he cast a drunken look over his shoulder at Jesse Ed Davis. Running over to him, Lennon gave Jesse Ed a passionate kiss on the mouth. Not to be outdone, Jesse Ed grabbed John and kissed him back. Lennon screamed, “F****t!” — and knocked Jesse flat on his ass.

The Lives of John Lennon by Albert Goldman (May Pang, describing an incident during the recording of Rock 'n' Roll in 1973: p.564)

It turned into a full-on fight. John was incredibly strong! He got me in some kind of a hold behind my back that I could not get out of, like a full nelson. And he started to kiss me on the mouth! He was laughin’ and kissin’ me on the mouth. I was strugglin’ to git away and I couldn’t git away. Then he stuck his tongue in my mouth. God! So I bit him. Bit him on the tongue. That pissed him off. So he grabbed the marble ashtray that we couldn’t break and banged me on the head. Knocked me cold.

The Lives of John Lennon by Albert Goldman (a direct quote from Jesse Ed Davis about a different night: p. 576-577)

Alternatively, he could be openly supportive:

Why make it sad to be gay? Doing your thing is O.K. Our bodies our own So leave us alone Go play with yourself – today.

A poem submitted for Len Richmond and Gary Noguera's Gay Liberation Handbook, on 30 May 1972

John spreading rumours: John (and Yoko) had a propensity for intentionally spreading rumours about his sexuality, with many people claiming that he found it funny. Multiple people refused to believe his own words about his experiences or willingness with men.

John told me he had had a one-night stand with Brian, on a holiday with him in Spain, when Brian had invited him out, a few days after the birth of Julian in 1963, leaving Cyn alone. I mentioned this brief holiday in the book, but not what John had alleged had taken place. Partly, I didn't really believe it, though John was daft enough to try almost anything once. John was certainly not homosexual, and this boast, or lie, would have given the wrong impression. It was also not fair on Cynthia, his then wife.

Hunter Davies, The Beatles: The Authorised Biography (updated edition, 2010)

John himself said he finally allowed Brian to make love to him “to get it out of the way.” Those who knew John well, who had known him for years, don’t believe it for a moment. John was aggressively heterosexual and had never given a hint that he was anything but.

Tony Bramwell, Magical Mystery Tours: My Life With The Beatles, 2014

John roared with laughter at the rumours that began afterwards. Typically, he encouraged the stories that he and Brian were gay lovers because he thought it was funny and John was one of the world’s great wind-up merchants. He told me afterwards in one of our frankest heart-to-hearts that Brian never seriously did proposition him. He had teased Brian about the young men he kept gazing at and the odd ones who had found their way to his room. Brian had joked to John about the women who hurled themselves at him. ‘If he’d asked me, I probably would have done anything he wanted. I was so much in awe of Brian then I’d have tried a night of vice-versa. But he never wanted me like that. Sure, I took the mickey a bit and pretended to lead him on. But we both knew we were joking.

Alistair Taylor, With The Beatles, 2003

Years later, John finally came clean about what had happened: not to anyone who’d been around at the time, but to the unshockable woman with whom he shared the last decade of his life. He said that one night during the trip, Brian had cast aside shyness and scruples and finally come on to him, but that he’d replied, “If you feel like that, go out and find a hustler.” Afterward, he had deliberately fed Pete Shotton the myth of his brief surrender, so that everyone would believe his power over Brian to be absolute.

Philip Norman, John Lennon: The Life, 2008

The next night Elliot [Mintz] took us out with a friend of his, Sal Mineo, and we all went to a gay cabaret/discotheque. John was oblivious to the gay ambience. He was curious about everyone’s sexuality and liked to gossip about who was sleeping with whom, whether they were gay or straight. John made no judgements about homosexuality but was really curious about who was and who wasn’t gay.

He knew that his appearance at a gay club might start rumors about his own sexuality, and it made him laugh. He told me that there had been rumors about him and his first manager, Brian Epstein, and that he usually didn’t deny them. He liked the fact that people could be titillated by having suspicions about his masculinity. Then I was the one who was laughing. “How could anyone believe a man who likes women as much as you do is gay?” I told him.

May Pang’s Loving John (1983).

Q. Have you ever fucked a guy?

A. Not yet, I thought I’d save it til I was 40, life begins at 40 you know, tho I never noticed it.

Q. It is trendy to be bisexual and you’re usually ‘keeping up with the Jones’, haven’t you ever… there was talk about you and PAUL…

A. Oh, I thought it was about me and Brian Epstein… anyway, I’m saving all the juice for my own version of THE REAL FAB FOUR BEATLES STORY etc.. etc..

John Lennon self interview for Andy Warhol’s Interview Magazine (November 1974).

John: Yes, all your best friends let you know what's going on. I was trying to put it 'round that I was gay, you know-- I thought that would throw them off... dancing at all the gay clubs in Los Angeles, flirting with the boys... but it never got off the ground.

Q: I think I've only heard that lately about Paul.

John: Oh, I've had him, he's no good. [Laughter]

John Lennon, interviewed by Lisa Robinson for Hit Parader: A conversation with John Lennon (December 1975).

“It’s great,” Ono laughs. “I mean, both John and I thought it was good that people think we were bisexual, or homosexual.” She laughs again.

“Uh, well, the story I was told was a very explicit story, and from that I think they didn’t have it [sex],” Ono tells me. “But they went to Spain, and when they came back, tons of reporters were asking, ‘Did you do it, did you do it?’ So he said, ‘I did it.’ Isn’t that amazing? But of course he would say that. I’m sure Brian Epstein made a move, yeah.”

And Lennon said no to Epstein?

“He just didn’t want to do it, I think.”

Yoko Ono: I Still Fear John’s Killer by Tim Teeman for the Daily Beast (13 October 2015).

Over dinner the Wenners learned the secrets of the Beatles kingdom from Ono, who would often suggest to Wenner that John Lennon was gay. “She’s always hinted that there was some gay component to John,” said Wenner, “but in a vague or generalized way, like, ‘Isn’t everybody gay?’ Or, ‘I always told John he was gay.’ ” (She also told McCartney this theory after Lennon died, which he didn’t believe.)”

Joe Hagan, Sticky Fingers: The Life and Times of Jann Wenner & Rolling Stone Magazine. (2017)

On the other hand, he supposedly hated the rumours:

Claims have been made since that Brian and John had a gay relationship. Nothing could be further from the truth. John was a hundred per cent heterosexual and, like most lads at that time, horrified by the idea of homosexuality.

It was a holiday John came to regret because it sparked off a string of rumours about his relationship with Brian. He had to put up with sly digs, winks and innuendo that he was secretly gay. It infuriated him: all he'd wanted was a break with a friend, but it was turned into so much more.

Cynthia Lennon, John, 2005

And I just went on holiday. I watched Brian picking up the boys. I like playing a bit faggy, all that. It was enjoyable, but there were big rumours in Liverpool, it was terrible. Very embarrassing. Rumors about you and Brian? Oh, fuck knows—yes, yes. I was pretty close to Brian because if somebody's going to manage me, I want to know them inside out.

John Lennon, Jann S. Wenner, Lennon Remembers, 1970

Unfortunately, certain Liverpool acquaintances (who had no way of knowing that there was a kernel of truth to their allegations) wouldn't let John hear the end of it. All in good fun, no doubt, but John was still too enamored of his macho self-image to take lightly any inference that he was anything less than 100 percent heterosexual.

The Beatles, Lennon, and me - Pete Shotton

John's comments about his sexuality:

It’s just handy to fuck your best friend. That’s what it is. And once I resolved the fact that it was a woman as well, it’s all right. We go through the trauma of life and death every day so it’s not so much of a worry about what sex we are anymore.

John Lennon, interview w/ Jonathan Cott for Rolling Stone: Yoko Ono and her sixteen-track voice. (March 18th, 1971)

I just realized that [Yoko] knew everything I knew, and more, probably, and it was coming out of a woman’s head. It just sort of bowled me over, you know? And it was like finding gold or something. To find somebody that you can go and get pissed with, and have exactly the same relationship as any mate in Liverpool you’d ever had, but also you could go to bed with him, and it could stroke your head when you felt tired, or sick, or depressed. It could also be Mother. And obviously, that’s what the male-female – you know, you could take those roles with each other.

John Lennon, interview w/ Peter McCabe and Robert D. Schonfeld c/o Peter McCabe and Robert D. Schonfeld, John Lennon: For The Record. (September 5th, 1971)

It’s a plus, it’s not a minus. The plus is that your best friend, also, can hold you without… I mean, I’m not a homosexual, or we could have had a homosexual relationship and maybe that would have satisfied it, with working with other male artists. [faltering] An artist – it’s more – it’s much better to be working with another artist of the same energy, and that’s why there’s always been Beatles or Marx Brothers or men, together. Because it’s alright for them to work together or whatever it is. It’s the same except that we sleep together, you know? I mean, not counting love and all the things on the side, just as a working relationship with her, it has all the benefits of working with another male artist and all the joint inspiration, and then we can hold hands too, right?

John Lennon, interview w/ Sandra Shevey. (Mid-June?, 1972)

I was on holiday with Brian Epstein in Spain, where the rumours went around that he and I were having a love affair. Well, it was almost a love affair, but not quite. It was never consummated. But it was a pretty intense relationship. It was my first experience with a homosexual that I was conscious was homosexual. He had admitted it to me. We had this holiday together because Cyn was pregnant, and I went to Spain and there were lots of funny stories. We used to sit in a cafe in Torremolinos looking at all the boys and I’d say, ‘Do you like that one, do you like this one?’ I was rather enjoying the experience, thinking like a writer all the time: I am experiencing this, you know.

John Lennon, Rolling Stone, 1980

I was thinking, if only I could get out of Liverpool, be famous and rich, that would be great. I’ve always wanted to be a famous artist, you know? Possibly I’d have to marry a very rich old lady… or man, you know… to… to look after me while I did my art. But then Rock & Roll came and I thought ‘Ah, this is the one’, so I didn’t have to marry anybody or live with them, you know?

John Lennon interview

There was even some discussion, albeit not very serious, of whether he should stick to his own gender. “John said ‘It would hurt you like crazy if I made it with a girl. With a guy, maybe you wouldn’t be hurt, because that’s not competition. But I can’t make it with a guy because I love women too much, and I’d have to fall in love with the guy and I don’t think I can.’”

John Lennon: The Life

I look at early pictures of meself, and I was torn between being Marlon Brando and being the sensitive poet – the Oscar Wilde part of me with the velvet, feminine side. I was always torn between the two, mainly opting for the macho side, because if you showed the other side, you were dead.

John Lennon, December 5th, 1980

“John believed in my work as an artist wasn’t accepted in part because I am a woman. He got angry when people said about me, “She’s not a woman, she’s a female impersonator.” John said to me, “If I had been gay and gotten together with a guy who was talented like you, after ten years that guy would have become famous as an artist in his own right. Maybe we should come out and say, ‘Actually, Yoko is a guy.’ Maybe that will do it!”

Yoko Ono, interview w/ Jon Wiener, c/o Jon Wiener, Come Together: John Lennon In His Time. (1984)

In this intense, intimate and revealing original cassette recording of a private conversation in 1969 between John Lennon and Yoko Ono, the couple speaks primarily about Yoko’s past relationships, her music and art, and their random views on sex, love, promiscuity, and homosexuality. […] [Lennon] adds that he had never met an attractive woman that had sexually aroused him to any great degree.

Description of the 45-minute audiotape auctioned in 2009 by Alexander Autographs.

Yoko's comments about his sexuality:

“Well, that’s another thing. John and I had a big talk about it, saying, basically, all of us must be bisexual. And we were sort of in a situation of thinking that we’re not [bisexual] because of society. So we are hiding the other side of ourselves, which is less acceptable. But I don’t have a strong sexual desire towards another woman.”

Did Lennon have sex with other men?

“I think he had a desire to, but I think he was too inhibited,” says Ono.

“No, not inhibited. He said, ‘I don’t mind if there’s an incredibly attractive guy.’ It’s very difficult: They would have to be not just physically attractive, but mentally very advanced too. And you can’t find people like that.”

So did Lennon ever have sex with men?

“No, I don’t think so,” says Ono. “The beginning of the year he was killed, he said to me, ‘I could have done it, but I can’t because I just never found somebody that was that attractive.’ Both John and I were into attractiveness—you know—beauty.”

Yoko Ono: I Still Fear John’s Killer by Tim Teeman for the Daily Beast (13 October 2015).

"As mild and oblique as the comment was [Paul's "You took your lucky break and broke it in two" line from "Too Many People"], it seemed to cut John to the heart. On top of the questionnaire inside theMcCartney album and the lawsuit, it was like the tipping point between a divorcing couple that turns love into savage, no-holds-barred hostility. Indeed, John's wounded anger was more that of an ex-spouse than ex-colleague, reinforcing a suspicion already in Yoko's mind that his feelings for Paul had been far more intense than the world at large ever guessed. From chance remarks he had made, she gathered there had even been a moment where - on the principle that bohemians should try everything - he had contemplated an affair with Paul, but had been deterred by Paul's immovable heterosexuality. Nor, apparently, was Yoko the only one to have picked up on this. Around Apple, in her hearing, Paul would sometimes be called John's princess. She had also once heard a rehearsal tape with John's voice calling out "Paul ... Paul ... " in a strangely subservient, pleading way. "I knew there was something going on there," she remembers. "From his point of view, not from Paul's. And he was so angry at Paul, I couldn't help wondering what it was really about.""

Philip Norman, John Lennon: The Life, 2008

I’m sure that if he had been a woman or something, he would have been a great threat, because there’s something definitely very strong with me, John, and Paul.

Yoko Ono, Revolution Tape, June 4th 1968

Friends & acquaintances comments on his sexuality:

I realised I was probably bisexual; there was nothing to be ashamed of in this – John Lennon had reputedly spoken to mutual friends of his own experiments.

Who I Am: A Memoir, Pete Townshend 2012

PAUL: There were lots of people asking cheeky questions, and they were always saying, “Well, why–have you ever tried homosexuality, John?” You know, they always used to ask all that kind of stuff. I remember John saying to them, “No, I’ve never met a fella I fancy enough.” And that was his kind of opinion. You know, “I may go–I may be gay one day, if some fella really turns me on.” He was–he was that open about it. But as far as I was concerned, I slept in a million hotel rooms–as we all did–slept in a million places with John, and there was never any hint of it.

December 24th, 1983: interview with DJ Roger Scott

“And you, Icke?” asked Paul. “Who’s your favourite author?” “Henry Miller. I think he’s very good,” I said. In that moment John suddenly looked over at me. Until then he had been watching Bettina, the bar lady, rinsing glasses and tidying up the bar, with his typical somewhat blasé expression. Our discussion hadn’t seemed to interest him much. Now he was looking directly into my eyes. Quietly and without taking his eyes off me, he walked around the whole counter over to me, planted a kiss on my mouth and went back to his spot. At first, I was quite surprised and didn’t know what to do about it, then I found it rather funny and thought little of it. A few days later, it happened again. I happened upon* him in the hallway behind the stage and again he took my hand and kissed me. At some point the thought occurred to me, “man, he thinks I’m gay, but I can’t help him with that.” What was really going on, I don’t know. Maybe he meant the kisses as overtures; he was even treated as a closet case by homosexuals.

Hans-Walther (Icke) Braun (a friend of the Beatles in Hamburg)

"What happened," John explained, "is that Eppy just kept on and on at me. Until one night I finally just pulled me trousers down and said to him: 'Oh, for Christ's sake, Brian, just stick it up me fucking arse then.' "And he said to me, 'Actually, John, I don't do that kind of thing. That's not what I like to do.' "'Well,' I said, 'what is it you want to do, then?' "And he said, 'I'd really just like to touch you, John.' "And so I let him toss me off." And that was that. End of story. "That's all, John?" I said. "Well, so what? What's the big fucking deal, then?" "Yeah, so fucking what! The poor bastard. He's having a fucking hard enough time anyway." This was in reference to the "butch" dockers who, on several recent occasions, had rewarded Brian's advances by beating him to a bloody pulp. "So what harm did it do, then, Pete, for fuck's sake?" John asked rhetorically. "No harm at all. The poor fucking bastard, he can't help the way he is." "No need to get so worked up," I said. "You know I don't give a shit. What's a fucking wank between friends anyway?"

Pete Shotton, Nicholas Schaffner, John Lennon: In My Life, 1983

I think he was trying to find himself a�� what he’d call a soulmate. Someone who had as mad ideas as he had. I think he felt that she had the talent… but that’s debatable. But he needed that— he didn’t need a ‘mumsie’ partner at that point. He needed a mate. And I think he actually said, at some stage, in an interview that, you know— She’s the nearest thing to a man — a mate; man — that he’s ever had in a woman.

Cynthia Lennon, interviewed by Alex Belfield for BBC Radio (2006).

Paul wrote to me from the Star Club in Hamburg once, a great letter, it even had doodles on the front of it, but it was stolen. He said that in one of the clubs one night John Lennon ended up with a stunning, exotic-looking woman—only to discover on closer inspection that she was a he, which all the other Beatles found hilarious.

Sue Johnston (actress), The Mirror. (August 23rd, 2011)

Though raised amid the same homophobia as his companions, John seemed totally unshocked by St Pauli’s abundant drag scene; indeed, he often seemed actively to seek it out. ‘There was one particular club he used to like,’ Tony Sheridan remembers, ‘full of these big guys with hairy hands, deep voices—and breasts. But they used to make an effort to talk English. There was something about the place that seemed to make John feel at home.’

In John Lennon: The Life by Philip Norman (2008).

“We’d read all these things about leather and we didn’t have any leather but I had my oilskins and we had some polythene bags from somewhere. We all dressed up in them and wore them in bed. John stayed the night with us in the same bed. I don’t think anything very exciting happened and we all wondered what the fun was in being ‘kinky’. It was probably more my idea than John’s.”

Royston Ellis

In the same book Pauline speculates, sensationally, that John and her brother had a homosexual relationship. ‘I have known in my heart for many years that Stuart and John had a sexual relationship,’ she writes, though she fails to provide any firm evidence. Pauline wonders whether this ‘relationship’ was the real cause of the antagonism between Paul and Stu.

Fab, An Intimate Life of Paul McCartney

Journalist & author comments on his sexuality:

“No, he wasn’t sexually attracted to Paul. Paul was very very pretty, but he actually wasn’t someone who made gay men fancy him. John was much more likely to make a gay man like Brian Epstein because John seemed so straight, there was nothing sort of girly about John at all. But John wanted to be, in his mind, a real artist, that is someone who painted and did sculpture. And he thought that a real artist or he called it a bohemian, should be open to all experiences. He should perhaps have a homosexual experience. Who was around? Paul was around. They used to share beds you know, in these cheap hotels when they would go around with the Beatles. There was never any question of Paul ever reciprocating such a thing, it was merely a thought that according to Yoko had flitted across John’s mind. Now John could use sexuality, I mean he did somewhat play on the fact that Brian Epstein, the Beatles manager, was in love with him you know, but it was just a game really with John.”

Philip Norman interview

"Yet even [John's resentment over Paul announcing the breakup first] does not explain his later remark to Yoko that no one had ever hurt him the way Paul hurt him. It almost suggests that, deep beneath the schoolboy friendship and the complementary musical brilliance, lay some streak of homosexual adoration that John himself never realised. He might have longed to get away from Paul, but he could never quite get over him."

Philip Norman, Shout!, 1981

And any mention of Paul brought a wintry bleakness to her face. 'John always used to say,' [Yoko] told me at one point, 'that no one ever hurt him the way Paul hurt him.' The words suggested a far deeper emotional attachment between the two than the world had ever suspected---they were like those of a spurned lover---and I naturally included them in my account of my visit for the Sunday Times. After it appeared, I returned to my London flat one evening to be told by my then girlfriend, ‘Paul, phoned you.’ She said he wanted to know what Yoko had meant and that he’d seemed upset rather than angry.

Paul McCartney: The Life - Philip Norman.

“If you had a choice, Eppy,” John said, “if you could press a button and be hetero, would you do it?” Brian thought for a moment. “Strangely, no,” he said. A little later a peculiar game developed. John would point out some passing man to Brian, and Brian would explain to him what it was about the fellow that he found attractive or unattractive. “I was rather enjoying the experience,” John said, “thinking like a writer all the time: I am experiencing this.” And still later, back in their hotel suite, drunk and sleepy from the sweet Spanish wine, Brian and John undressed in silence. “It’s okay, Eppy,” John said, and lay down on his bed. Brian would have liked to have hugged him, but he was afraid. Instead, John lay there, tentative and still, and Brian fulfilled the fantasies he was so sure would bring him contentment, only to awake the next morning as hollow as before.

Peter Brown, The Love You Make, 1983

“[John and Janov] talked…about Brian Epstein…‘He knew Brian had adored him, and there was a lot of guilt there about the way he'd depended on Brian yet mistreated him,’ Janov recalls. They talked about John's notorious Spanish holiday with Brian in 1963 and the (to John) insignificant physical encounter that had resulted. The more Janov heard about Brian, the more he longed to have had him as a patient. ‘God, that was a tragic story. There was someone who needed therapy even more than John did.’”

Phillip Normans book, John Lennon: The Life.

Whilst the Beatles had always been marketed as a heterosexual group - in contrast with the Stones, whose image was androgynous - they were sympathetic to the homosexual population. Lennon himself was alleged to have had affairs with both men and women, and although he never openly admitted it to me, his condemnation of Britain as a land which feeds on a homosexual subsculture persuades me at this late stage that he was speaking from experience. I am sure that the break-up of the Beatles, or, more specifically, of John and Paul, must have been more traumatic than any of us suspect.

Sandra Shevey, The Other Side of Lennon

‘OK: John Reid said that when we were in Boston with Elton and John in 1974, he couldn’t resist asking John whether the rumours about him and Epstein were true. This was in response to John having said to John Reid, “You’re the most intimidating man I’ve met since Brian Epstein.” And so John Reid, never knowingly one to miss an opportunity, said, “Did you ever have sex with Brian?” And John said, “Twice. Once to see what it was like, and once to make sure I didn’t like it.” ‘All these years, by the way, I have not wanted to be the guy who declared, “John Lennon and Brian Epstein had sex.” You can appreciate how I feel about this. Do we want the historical record to be accurate, or does John have a right to privacy? And would it upset Cynthia [by now deceased], or Julian? I don’t mind about Yoko, she’d probably think it was a great idea. Bisexuality, wooh.’ ‘Simon Napier-Bell said that both Epstein and John told him they did it in Spain,’ I said. ‘Ah, I’m not the only one. Good,’ replied Paul.

...

But then there were John’s liaisons with David Bowie, which David himself told me about. According to him, it happened on several occasions. He didn’t go into detail, nor did I press him, but he was perfectly open about it. About Mick Jagger, too, I told Paul. ‘Huh. I feel sort of left out,’ said Paul.

Paul Gambaccini, Lesley-Ann Jones - The Search for John Lennon

"That Bowie worshipped Lennon was no secret…They'd met in Los Angeles, [Bowie] told me, during John's Lost Weekend…The crazy pair went out to play, according to David, when John was on yet another break from May [Pang] and far away from Yoko. They gender bendered about, John indulging again that 'inner fag' of his… They later 'hooked up': 'There was a whore in the middle, and it wasn't either of us,' David smirked. 'At some point in the proceedings, she left. I think it was a she. Not that we minded.' By the time they made it back to New York, the ambisextrous pair were 'lifelong friends!"

Lesley-Ann Jones - The Search for John Lennon

Marriage, Divorce & replacing Paul with Yoko:

"I used my resentment and withdrawing from Paul and the Beatles and the relationship with Paul to write 'How Do You Sleep?'

John (Source: Bill Harry, The John Lennon Encyclopedia, 2001)

JOHN: In a marriage, or a love affair – when the seven-year-itch or the twelve-year (note: there is no such thing as the twelve year itch but guess how long J&P were together) or whatever these things that you have to go through – there comes a point where the marriage collapses because they can’t face that reality, and they go seeking what they thought they should be having, still, somewhere else. I get a new girl, it’ll all be like that again; I get a new boy… But for all marriages, all couples, it’ll all be the same again. But what you lose is what you put into that… relationship.

September, 1980

There seem to be certain cycles that relationships go through. And the critical points are at different parts of the different cycles, different points on the – if there’s a straight line, there are different points, you know? And the bit, the new way of talking is like, “Well, why have a relationship? We can just stop and get another one.” But the karmic joke about that is, that any new relationship, presuming you’re lucky enough to find a new relationship anywhere near the relationship that you’re giving up – or exchanging, or walking away from, or have destroyed by inattention or inadvertent or selfishness or whatever it is – that you have to go through the same thing again anyway. You reach the same point.

John Lennon, interview w/ David Sheff for Playboy. (September, 1980)

"I'd like to thank Elton and the boys for having me on tonight. We tried to think of a number to finish off with so I can get out of here and be sick, and we thought we'd do a number of an old estranged fiancé of mine called Paul."

John, introducing "I Saw Her Standing There" at the Thanksgiving show at Madison Square Garden in 1974

You know, John loved Paul. No doubt about it. I remember once he said to me, “I’m the only person who’s allowed to say things like that about Paul. I don’t like it when other people do.” He didn’t like if other people said nasty things about Paul. And he always referred to Paul as his estranged fiancé and things like that, like he did on that [live] record ‘I Saw Her Standing There’ with Elton in Madison Square Garden.

1990: Former Beatles publicist Tony King

TRYNKA: When The Beatles split, did you feel relief? YOKO: No. I always thought, “John won’t be doing this thing with The Beatles and eventually I can do my work too.” That was my plan. But suddenly he’s saying, “I burned my bridge with them, so now it’s you, okay?” I thought, “My God, he was getting the thrill of working with three very strong individuals, and now I have to take all that brunt.” He did put it that way; he was “riding on the boat called Paul, and now I’m going to ride on a boat called Yoko.”

Yoko Ono, interview w/ Paul Trynka for MOJO. (May, 2003)

“. . . I mean, I think really what it was, really all that happened was that John fell in love. With Yoko. And so, with such a powerful alliance like that, it was difficult for him to still be seeing me. It was as if I was another girlfriend, almost. Our relationship was a strong relationship. And if he was to start a new relationship, he had to put this other one away. And I understood that. I mean, I couldn’t stand in the way of someone who’d fallen in love. You can’t say, “Who’s this?” You can’t really do that. If I was a girl, maybe I could go out and… But you know I mean in this case I just sort of said, right – I mean, I didn’t say anything, but I could see that was the way it was going to go, and that Yoko would be very sort of powerful for him. So um, we all had to get out the way.”

Paul McCartney, interview with German tv program Exclusiv, April 1985.

BARROW: She was a very strong influence on John, and may well have been telling him that he could do best on his own, but I still think that on the back of John’s mind would be this sort of fascination with wanting to get back with the first girlfriend, if you’d like [laughs], and it was to get back with Paul that he had so much history with.

Tony Barrow, The Beatles’ press officer

"[Paul] said it was written about Julian. He knew I was splitting with Cyn and leaving Julian then. He was driving to see Julian to say hello. He had been like an uncle. And he came up with 'Hey Jude.' But I always heard it as a song to me. Now I'm sounding like one of those fans reading things into it...Think about it: Yoko had just come into the picture. He is saying 'Hey, Jude' - 'Hey, John.' Subconsciously, he was saying, 'Go ahead, leave me.' On a conscious level, he didn't want me to go ahead. The angel in him was saying 'Bless you.' The Devil in him didn't like it at all, because he didn't want to lose his partner."

John (Source: Playboy, 1980)

SALEWICZ: Well, I always found it interesting the fact that he got – I mean, it seemed too much like coincidence to me, the fact that he got married a week or month after you. You know what I mean? PAUL: Yeah. I think we spurred each other into marriage. I mean, you know. They were very strong together, which left me out of the picture. So I got together with Linda and then we got strong with our own kind of thing. And I used to listen to a lot of what they said. I remember him saying to me, “You’ve got to work at marriage,” which is something I still remember as a bit of advice. I still remember that. Um… And then yeah, I think they were a little bit peeved that we got married first. Probably. In a little way, you know, just minor jealousies. And so they got married. I don’t know if that’s – I mean, who knows… [inaudible] making it up, anyway.

September, 1986 (MPL Communications, London): journalist Chris Salewicz

“If you look at interviews and stuff with John, from around about that time he was in Imagine [documentary] he kind of admits that he’s having problems with himself. So, well, the first thing you do when you’re having problems with yourself is you bitch about someone else. And the closest person was me…He had a real go at me. I personally think it was ‘cause he was trying to clear the decks for Yoko. He’s got a new love, he’s trying to say to her, “Look, baby, I love you. I hate those guys.”

Paul McCartney

"The line [the walrus was Paul] was put in partly because I was feeling guilty because I was with Yoko and I was leaving Paul. It's a very perverse way of saying to Paul: 'here, have this crumb, this illusion, this stroke - because I'm leaving.'" -John

Playboy, 1980

JOHN: And throwing in the line “the Walrus was Paul” just to confuse everybody a bit more. And because I felt slightly guilty because I’d got Yoko, and he’d got nothing, and I was gonna quit. [laughs; bleak] And so I thought ‘Walrus’ has now become [in] meaning, “I am the one.” It didn’t mean that in the song, originally. It just meant I’m the – it could have been I’m the – “I’m The Fox Terrier,” you know. I mean, it’s just a bit of poetry.

August, 1980: John talks to Playboy writer David Sheff about ‘Glass Onion’.

"I started thinking, 'Well, if that's the case [not getting back together], I had better get myself together. I just can't let John control the situation and dump us as if we're the jilted girlfriends.'"

The Beatles, Anthology, 1995

“After we’d done the One To One concert film,” recalled Steve Gebhardt, “I remember John saying to me that the days of everything being Johnandyoko – one word – were over. I was shocked.” Ono completed her record, Approximately Infinite Universe, which was greeted more positively than her previous releases. Lennon did his best to publicise it, writing a personal note to the Capitol Records boss asking him to throw the company’s weight behind it. But in mid-January 1973 Lennon and Ono quarrelled publicly at another party. “I wish I was back with Paul,” Lennon reportedly said.

Peter Doggett, You Never Give Me Your Money: The Battle for the Soul of The Beatles. (2009)

YOKO: I think that it’s like [John] was married to Paul, and now he was married to me… So it was a situation that he didn’t feel like he wanted to go back, really. John had a lot of respect for Paul, and of course, love. But I would think that if the truth may be told, the love was lost on both ways. There were times that Paul did say a lot of strange things about John, so that I know that it wasn’t like Paul loved John but John didn’t love Paul, or John actually loved Paul but Paul didn’t. I mean, it was like a very healthy situation where they outgrew each other’s company. And only until John became what he is now – which is after John’s death that people started to revere John – it became an issue for Paul. Because you have to understand that table was turned many times. One, when John made the Jesus Christ remark, and Paul became virtually a leader. And John turned the table on Paul by becoming a partner with me, probably. But then the thing is, the table was turned again by Paul becoming extremely successful with Wings. So he was doing alright, while John did Some Time in New York City with me, and then followed that with Mind Games or something, you know. 1990: Yoko

“They loved each other more than most couples do, and when they split it was more wrenching than most divorces”

Beatles publicist Tony Barrow on Lennon and McCartney

““I’m sure that in the case of Paul there’s that feeling that I’m the woman who took away his partner – it’s like a divorce.””

Yoko Ono (You Never Give Me Your Money, Peter Doggett)

“On March 12, Paul married Linda Eastman at Marylebone Register Office in London, amid scenes of hysterical grief from his female fans. None of the other Beatles was present. The news reached John as he and Yoko were driving down to visit Aunt Mimi in Poole. Yoko’s divorce decree had become final a few weeks earlier, and, in a resurgence of Beatle copycat, John told her they, too, must get married as soon as possible”

Philip Norman, John Lennon: The life

“Then also we were like married, so you got the bitterness. It’s not a woman scorned this time, it’s two men scorned — probably even worse. And I had to make way for Yoko. My relationship with John could not have remained as it was and Yoko feel secure.”

Paul McCartney, Interview by Duncan Fallowell in the Chicago Tribune, October 14th, 1984

Knowing John so well, I believe that the only reason he picked Yoko was [he wanted] a negative reaction. I mean, it was purely a negative reaction because he couldn’t take any more girls in the world, actually. I mean, he knew that he could have any girl. And the girls, that were nice-looking—he couldn’t stand them. I mean, from morning to night, there were girls not boys—actually, running after them. We used to go to his house and think that we are in peace. Suddenly a girl with a broken leg is jumping over John’s fence to, to get an autograph. It was a pain in the neck. John wanted to be with a woman. But he needed as well very, very much a friend. He needed a male friend. And my opinion is that Yoko, he managed somehow to combine both. He had a fear for pretty women running after him. Yoko was not very pretty, uh, at all, and he replaced a male in his life plus a female.

Magic Alex, All You Need Is Love – Peter Brown & Steven Gaines

Jealousy regarding Paul Mccartney: I wouldn't consider any of this especially convincing on it's own, however John's consistent dislike for and rudeness towards Paul's partners is notable

I was a very possessive and jealous guy, and the lyrics explain that pretty clearly. Not just jealous towards Yoko, but towards everything, male and female – incredibly possessive.

1970 (audio snippet approx 2:06)

In an entry noting McCartney’s marriage to Linda Eastman, Lennon crossed out “wedding” and wrote “funeral”, the Observer said.

Associated Press: Lennon’s resentment of McCartney reflected in book notes. (July 20th, 1986)

Q: I saw that thing in The Observer the other week, about the manuscript of the Apple Beatles biography and the vitriolic comments John made in the margins. I think that shows the sort of pain he was going through. Look, he was a great guy, great sense of humour and I’d do it all again. I’d go through it all again, and have him slagging me off again just because he was so great; those are all the down moments, there was much more pleasure than has really come out. I had a wonderful time, with one of the world’s most talented people. We had all that craziness, but if someone took one of your wedding photos and put ‘funeral’ on it, as he did on that manuscript, you’d tend to feel a bit sorry for the guy. I’ll tell you what, if I’d ever done that to him, he would’ve just hit the roof. But I just sat through it all like mild-mannered Clark Kent Q: When did you actually get a perspective on it? I still haven’t. It’s still inside me. John was lucky. He got all his hurt out. I’m a different sort of a personality. There’s still a lot inside me that’s trying to work it out. And that’s why it’s good to see that wedding-funeral bit, because I started to think, ‘Wait a minute, this is someone who’s going over the top. This is paranoia manifesting itself.’ And so my feeling is just like it was at the time, which is like, He’s my buddy, I don’t really want to do anything to hurt him, or his memory, or anything. I don’t want to hurt Yoko. But, at the same time, it doesn’t mean that I understand what went down.

Paul McCartney: An Innocent Man? (October, 1986)

Q: "But for a while you didn't get along with Linda." JOHN: "We all got along well with Linda." Q: "When did you first meet her?" JOHN: "The first time was after that Apple press conference in America. We were going back to the airport and she was in the car with us. I didn't think she was particularly attractive. A bit too tweedy, you know. But she sat in the car and took photographs and that was it. And the next minute she's married him."

John Lennon Interview: St. Regis Hotel, New York City 9/5/1971

One night John came in and some chick was in bed with Paul and he cut all her clothes up with a pair of scissors, and was stabbing the wardrobe. Everybody was lying in bed thinking, ‘Oh fuck, I hope he doesn’t kill me.’ [He was] a frothing mad person—he knew how to have ‘fun.’

George Harrison, c/o Derek Taylor, Fifty Years Adrift. (1984)

"One time Paul had a chick in bed and John came in and got a pair of scissors and cut all her clothes into pieces and then wrecked the wardrobe. He got like that occasionally, it was because of the pills and being up too long."

George Harrison (Source: The Beatles, Anthology, 1995)

"I remember I had a girlfriend called Celia. I must have been 16 or 17, about the same age as her...we went out one evening and for some reason John tagged along, I can't remember why it was. I think he'd thought I was going to see him, I thought I'd cancelled it and he showed up at my house. But he was a mate, and he came on a date with this Celia girl, and at the end of the date she said, 'Why did you bring that dreadful guy?' And of course I said, 'Well, he's all right really.' And I think, in many ways, I always found myself doing that. It was always, 'Well, I know he was rude; it was funny, though, wasn't it?'"

Paul, Barry Miles, Many Years From Now, 1997

I came for dinner, and I was the only girl there. John definitely didn't like that. He didn't like me being there at ALL. He was mean and sarcastic. As far as he was concerned, I had no business being invited to dinner with the four of them. For him this was an exclusive boys' club. He was purposely making me feel uneasy. At one point, the boys were handing around a scrapbook -- looking at pictures of that first tour. John made some snide comment like, "What is SHE doing here?" I got the idea that he thought Paul was an idiot to take a girl so seriously he'd actually invite her to dinner, when all he really needed to do was fuck her AFTER dinner.

Peggy Lipton, Breathing Out, 2005

Whether it was her cool confidence or her posh accent, something about Jane goaded John to direct his caustic eyes in her direction. “Well. Let’s all play a question-and-answer-game!” He announced a bit too cheerily. Then he turned to Jane. “So tell us, luv, how do girls play with themselves?” Silence. Jane’s eyes widened. Paul, sitting close to her on the floor, put his hand in the air, as if he could wave John’s words back into his mouth. “John! John!” he yelped. “Stop it. You can’t do that.” John just smiled, peering intently through his glasses. “No, you can tell us. Come on. We all want to know, come on.” Paul, looking aghast, shook his head vehemently. “John. For christsakes, John.”

Peter Ames Carlin, Paul McCartney: A Life

JOHN: So it was always the family thing, you see. If Jane [Asher] was to have a career, then that’s not going to be a cozy family, is it? All the other girls were just groupies mainly. And with Linda not only did he have a ready-made family, but she knows what he wants, obviously, and has given it to him. The complete family life. He’s in Scotland. He told me he doesn’t like English cities anymore. So that’s how it is. MCCABE: So you think with Linda he’s found what he wanted? JOHN: I guess so. I guess so. I just don’t understand… I never knew what he wanted in a woman because I never knew what I wanted. I knew I wanted something intelligent or something arty, whatever it was. But you don’t really know what you want until you find it. So anyway, I was very surprised with Linda. I wouldn’t have been surprised if he’d married Jane Asher, because it had been going on for a long time and they went through a whole ordinary love scene. But with Linda it was just like, boom! She was in and that was the end of it.

John Lennon, interview w/ Peter McCabe and Robert Schonfeld. (September, 1971)

Random cute things: flirting etc

I remember we were going down to the studio [...] and there was a great crowd pressing against the car. John was sitting in the back and he said, “Push Paul out first. He’s the prettiest.”

Victor Spinetti, in the documentary You Can’t Do That! The Making of ‘A Hard Day’s Night’ (1995).

We were away. The boys had relaxed. As we walked off to do the next scene, I heard them joshing each other, like schoolboys on the way to class. 'Are those jeans tight, Paul?' That was John. 'What do you mean tight?' 'I can see your suspender belt through 'em and your stockings. You've got ladders in them.'

Up Front: His Strictly Confidential Autobiography by Victor Spinetti

“I could even hear what they were saying off-mike; ‘Oh Paul, you’re so cute tonight.’ was met with the reply ‘Sod off, Lennon.’”

Joan Baez on accompanying the Beatles to their concert in Red Rocks Amphitheatre, Denver. 26 August 1964

To Lennon, [Paul] was "cute, and didn’t he know it," a born performer who was also a "thruster" and an "operator" behind the scenes.

Christopher Sandford, Paul McCartney, 2005

In a late wee-hour-of-the-morning talk, he once told me, ‘I’m just like everybody else Harry, I fell for Paul’s looks.”

Harry Nilsson speaking about John Lennon

HARRY: Someone told me a few minutes ago they saw John walking on the street [once] wearing a sign saying – a button, rather, saying ‘I Love Paul’. And this girl who told me that said she asked him, “Why are you wearing the button that says ‘I Love Paul’?” He said, “Because I love Paul.” [laughs]

February 17th, 1984: Harry Nilsson

PAUL: It’s like, uh, “We have to get back.” “We’re on our way home.” JOHN: Yeah. PAUL: There’s a story. There’s another one – ‘Don’t Let Me Down’. “Oh darling, I’ll never let you down.” Like we’re doing— JOHN: Yeah. It’s like you and me are lovers. PAUL: [reserved] Yeah. [pause] JOHN: We’ll just have to camp it up for those two. PAUL: Yeah. Well, I’ll be wearing my skirt for the show, anyway.

Get Back sessions

PAUL: Okay, “two of us riding nowhere” that’s as if…we’re like…two, but then “we’re on our way home” JOHN: It’s like we’re like a couple of queens. PAUL: Yeah. Well, you know. Well, I mean, that’s… JOHN: We’re a couple of queens… PAUL: That’s just too bad. Unless you want to get Paul and Paula in. Poetic license, John. JOHN: You’re telling me, Paul.

Get Back sessions

#mclennon #paul mccartney #john lennon #the beatles #philip norman's quotes are my favourite #that man deserves an olympic medal in mental gymnastics

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three--rings · 1 year ago

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to get back to ofmd bitterness for a minute, I'm increasingly over the oh-so-plentiful variety of post that's like:

oh but OFMD S2 is actually perfect, it's only problematic to people who OVERTHINK THINGS.

Like, hi, this is fandom, have we met? THAT'S WHAT WE DO HERE.

And no one is saying you can't enjoy it for what it is and enjoy gifs of actors being cute and kissing and everything, have a blast. You don't have to get deep into textual analysis to be a fan.

BUT, while OFMD has always been a funny, cute show that tells a brisk story, but what I really, really appreciated about it was that when you interrogated it more deeply, it HELD TOGETHER. In fact, there seemed no end of depth to it. Everything WORKED symbolically, thematically. I became used to looking at the story on that level.

And S2 came out and it SEEMED like it was the same. so much depth, so much seriousness it seemed to be treating things with.

And then...it all fell apart in the last half. And that's SO FUCKING FRUSTRATING.

As an example, when the opening scene was Stede's dream of killing Izzy and running to Ed on a beach, looking dashing and manly, MANY MANY people in fandom immediately were like, OH. This is the show telling us what's NOT going to happen. This is the schlocky, cliched version of things. Where the hero is masculine and violent and the evil are punished and the romance is easily happily resolved.

This is the show saying we're not going to do the expected thing.

And then the end of the show killed Izzy and had Ed and Stede run to each other on a beach while doing violence, Stede looking capable and rugged, and they didn't really have to work at resolving their issues they just were Fine Actually.

So it felt kinda like spitting in the face of all the people writing meta about the show. It was playing INTO expectations instead of against them, and that felt like a betrayal of the show's core Thing.

But if you're not someone who was thinking about that kind of thing, then sure, probably it felt like 'oh it's a happy ending, cool.'

And I'm just sad that when I try to analyze these characters and their arcs in this season in detail, as I really on some level feel I NEED to, I'm left holding a bunch of parts that don't fit together. I thought I was being given a bunch of cool puzzle pieces that was going to make a pretty picture but when I was told it was done it was just some random shapes.

And again, if you're a casual viewer, like my husband for instance, you can walk away going "I thought it was pretty good" and be satisfied and that's great.

But I'm here trying to write fic set in a post S2 canonical universe and I CAN'T MAKE THE CHARACTER PIECES FIT RIGHT. and it's driving me nuts.

#ofmd #ofmd critical #ofmd s2

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xxnghtclls · 1 year ago

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Ok another analysis. I was trying to understand Sukuna‘s view on love and why it is worthless.

For me his understanding of love was always a hard nut to crack. Next to english not being my first language, I felt like I had to reread those panels a million times to come closer to understand to what love for him is and why he claims that it’s worthless. Again, just my thoughts, nothing has to be right. I don’t even know if this makes sense, but here we go.

If I understand it correctly, what he describes as love, is to recognise others strength and thus to respond to their violence with his own violence. This has a lot to do with respect and fits the way he describes the validation others seek from him. Fighting, slaughtering, -responding- to those who love him for his strength with his own strength. Attention and connection.

Considering that he could’ve faced rejection in his childhood (hated/unwanted), the themes of recognition and validation make a lot of sense here. I didn’t cover this in my other analysis, but the way he describes himself as unwanted little “wretch”, indicates that he saw himself as a little brat in his childhood as well. You could assume, that the form of love he knows and grew up with, is one of aggression, which he could’ve witnessed, acted upon others or experienced himself.

On this assumption, it makes sense that for him, love is a kind of attention and connection in the sense of responding with the same validation they came at him and that is violence and ultimately bringing death upon them. On that base, something interesting comes to mind. We’ve seen Sukuna being extremely happy when he’s fighting someone who can keep up with him, when he’s defeating someone strong, when he’s able to connect and “love” others in this way. So why exactly is love worthless?

We have Yorozu, who keeps babbling about love. What caught my attention here is that Sukuna explains that it was “quite annoying” to hear her trying to teach him about love, or about “what he doesn’t know”. I was wondering, why is he so annoyed, if he claims that he does know what love is? He doesn’t care about the opinion of others, so why is he pressed about something that she claims he doesn’t know? Do they have the same understanding of love? Or is he just annoyed because he thinks he knows better than anyone?

I think for Yorozu, love could mean mercy. Loneliness and solitude seem to be a more important topic for her than to Sukuna. So it could be her mercy to free Sukuna from the solitude of peerless strength, which- he doesn’t want. She claims she’s the one who will teach him about love - to ease his lonesome heart - to be the one that she will kill.

A direct contrast to Sukuna, who claims to enjoy his solitude and she being the one who wants to marry him. So the outcome on their views on love is the same here, which would be death, but the motivation is a different one. What’s interesting here is that Sukuna is ready to offer her “everything” once she would be able to defeat him. Is this is why he says love is worthless?

Because in his sense, based on what we’ve established, love ultimately means violence and death and after death it doesn’t matter “what you do with a corpse”. I ask myself, it he sees life itself as worthless? Could make sense, when he says he keeps living after his own statue, not caring about anything, because in the end nothing else matters…🎤🎸? But then why does he keep climbing the ladder of strength and power? Just to see if there‘s an end? Only because he can?

Man idk my brain is melting. Maybe this is not news for you, but for me it‘s hella complicated. 😆 I promise it‘s the last loaded analysis attempt thread for now. 🤞

#nighty talks #sukuna #theory #analysis #true form sukuna #jjk #jujutsu kaisen #jjk spoilers #jjk 247

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rosie-darling · 10 days ago

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notes from whitepine episode 4!! bolded are my important thoughts

0:06 "i could scream and you both would be dead"

vi as a young genius (young enough to not be able to leave the house without an adult but old/clever enough to understand redstone)

2:01 "a button that can only be pressed if a condition is met"

3:44 ivory being comfortable around vi despite all the stuff about leniency and blackmail :)

3:56 i gotta be so fr. the redstone on the floor looked like blood when serapter walked in ALSO serapter suspect because he knows secret passages????? "i gave him the runaround" HOW

4:35 vi's little jumps of excitement 😭

4:49 he's so scary help "look a little happier" is craaaazy

6:16, 6:27, 6:49, 7:00, 18:47 - the detective watching ivory >:(

8:46 something about the way he says "yeah, the boring meetings" doesn't sit right with me like i trust pyro so much but …… hmm

10:32 he's havin a panakatak :( /ref

11:42 "i'll pay!" my SWEETHEART :(

12:08 "have you taken your break at all today?" and "don't work yourself to death over this job"

12:53 smth about the assumption that wild = scary "probably getting ready to mangle us or something" + mysti's cause of death, the camera angle from above that makes it seem like he's being watched, and "i've heard how protective mother bears are of their children that they'll like.. kill anything" - and !! "i wasn't sure if it was dead so i shot it a few more times just to reassure myself" - were the extra wounds to mysti done for the same reason?

13:27 izzy looking at zolister and then her food like his story makes her sick - i really really wonder what connections she has!!!

14:26 "i'm not just here for your dad's blessing" as in. for marriage???

14:50 izzy seems really baffled by him idk

15:50 the first pretty thing vi takes ivory to is the factory "my dad owns it" is crazy. and "there's no way people didn't die while building it"

16:11 am i going nuts or was that the sound of a train - generally that whole sequence felt like a flashback-inducing thing idk

17:00 vi just seems so happy to have a friend 😭

17:40 "we own this field" yes we know your dad is rich vi

17:51 there's no way that shed is uninhabited

19:10 i've heard the "bormethius stole the cot" theory but what about a "bormethius snatched the bag to get ivory to come to the art room" theory [the sound design here is SO good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

20:43 ok hear me out. we suspect bormethius has a track record of stealing. i reckon he snatched the bag AND the cot - so, if he sees zam looking for him (while staying hidden, because he's not mentioned again), he can pretty easily extrapolate that ivy went to HIS room. ergo, he could steal something from zam's room and frame ivory so she's under even more scrutiny

22:17 could this be something to do with pyro? i know the obvious reason is overtiredness but pyro also was doing that….

23:31 why are we covering for ash………………. also "did you eat something spoiled" or POISONED???

ok i think i got everything. this episode was HEAVY on the analysis asjhdskhf

#rosie.txt #whitepine #ivorycello #bormethius #whitepine ivory #whitepine episode 4 #serapter #zolister

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lakesbian · 2 years ago

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i still become physically ill if i think about lisa calling taylor pet names for too long. calling her "honey bear" after she kills alexandria. calling her "kiddo" right after she lobotomizes herself. despite literally being the same age as her. like it's nuts she loves taylor to death and she's sooo condescending and manipulative about it. i don't even have any coherent analysis about lisa and taylor because if i think about it too hard i black out it's just a really good fucked up little character dynamic. she for real sees taylor immediately realizes she has nothing to live for goes "i can fix her. bc i cannot take seeing this happen a second time." and then spends the next 2 years watching taylor kill herself in slow motion. it happens a second time despite all her best efforts and there is nothing she can do about it. she never fixes her but she is the only thing keeping her standing. she Is her anchor. she saves her from a lot of things but she does Not save her from herself. the fact that a bit after the echidna fight lisa literally just tells her that she can't tell her abt her problems because taylor Is her problems and they never address it afterwards....so so fucked up (good). obsessed w the decision to do a 'mom friend/shy girl' dynamic that takes depicting how fucked up it actually is to the extreme. worm top all time champion of sort of objectively horrible and dysfunctional teenage relationships that everyone involved would've died without. the fucking pepper spray man. taylor giving lisa the pepper spray after she lobotomizes herself + starts worming and lisa saying 'couldn't you have made it easy?' like there is no question that lisa is going to stand with her no matter what but taylor doesn't let her live in blissful ignorance she does her the horrible favor of informing lisa that she's still in there, and this is what she wants to do. lisa just. standing there loving her to death watching her destroy herself smiling sadly and asking "couldn't you have made loving you easy?" even though they both already know the answer was always gonna be no. i have GOT to start having good lisataylor opinions but i Cannot because i start fainting and passing out if i think about them too hard. 10/10 would become physically ill over again. someone bring me the fucking smelling salts

#scarf don't look #worm spoilers

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mishishiwritings · 4 days ago

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The Bad Kids: Doubt or Certainty

So we all know of Fig and Kristen's allegiances to Ankarna and Cassandra, but I want to throw my hat in the ring about the other four bad kids.

Gorgug: In my mind, he is the clearest towards Cassandra. His doubt in his abilities is a clear example of this fact but in that doubt, he finds clarity in situations. He was somewhat the first to break out of the nightmare king's illusions and his line of "It's Gorgug, keep going" is not of righteousness but instead of doubt. That it's okay to be scared but I'm here holding your hand. That is exactly what Cassandra means in the world of spyre. (I will give a shout out to Paladin Gorgug au on ao3 which was a wonderful view of Gorgug as a champion of Ankarna. Really good stuff and helped me figure out my opinions on Gorgug's placement.)

Fabian: The other easier decision for me is Fabian towards Ankarna. Not in the violent aspects of her but in understanding and fairness. He wanted his father to understand him, to know him, to remove the doubt and mystery of how his father views him. He also channeled Ankarna well when he was defending Mazey and he is a very sure character, even if it is to his own detriment. He is sure in himself and especially in his friends and his own loyalty and that combo of Ankarna's old self and new self is most clearly seen in Fabian in Junior Year.

Adaine: Her and Riz were the hardest for me but I'm going to ultimately put her in the Cassandra camp. Not just because she is an oracle but because she spreads doubt in all that she does. Doubting her parents and their care for her and her sister. Doubt in the institutions she was involved in as the elven oracle. The most important part of that is that she shines a light on what needs to be questioned, and needs to be solved so that everyone is set to right. Out of all of the bad kids I feel like she can represent both deities the best but for the sake of my analysis I think she is more aligned to Cassandra.

Riz: The hardest to figure out and again like Adaine is a good balance of both but I am going to slot him in with Fabian and Fig in drawing on Ankarna's ideals. Yes, he focuses on mystery and puzzles but his drive and conviction in doing so speaks louder and closer to who he is at the end of the day. He fights for people to get what they deserve and that no one should remain a mystery. He is the maddest in the world and other NPCs like Kipperlily when they aren't playing fair. Fairness is so important to him and when that is broken he goes nuts. That rage and his ideas of conviction and justice in my mind make him more aligned with Ankarna.

Please let me know what you guys think in the comments.

#dnd #dimension 20 #d20 #fantasy high junior year #fantasy high #fhjy #ankarna #cassandra #fig faeth #adaine abernant #gorgug thistlespring #riz gukgak #fabian seacaster #kristen applebees #character analysis

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thewertsearch · 1 year ago

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[ there was more to this ask, but some was spoilers 😆 - C ]

Ooh, that is a fun challenge! I might make this a bigger Title post, actually, because it's been a good while since we've had one of those.

...alright, I just finished, and this one kind of got away from me. I hope it's ok that I sort of hijacked your post to talk about Aspects as a whole - but rest assured, I did answer the original question. Let's get into it!

Unfortunately, it might be kind of difficult to make Class guesses. My theory is that they're Sburb's take on RPG party roles - and for obvious reasons, we haven't seen how any of the non-Player characters would fit into a Sburb party. A full analysis of the hypothetical Midnight Crew, Exile and Guardian sessions would be fun, but it's a little out of scope for this question.

Personality certainly seems to be a factor. I don't think it's a coincidence, for example, that the Seers are the most inquisitive members of their respective parties. Dave and Karkat both hide their true emotions behind a persona - but then again, so do Feferi and Jade, two happy-go-lucky Witches with incredibly dark backstories. Dave may be the worst offender, but half the cast is hiding behind some sort of facade.

John, for his part, doesn't seem to have anything in common with Equius - at least, nothing I can see. I might dig a little deeper for human/troll Class parallels once we've seen more of Equius and Feferi, but our sample sizes are so small that it's going to be hard to tell which shared traits are intentional.

Anyway, none of the other classes feature a pair of Players that I could toss into a Venn diagram, so we're at a bit of a dead end.

I suppose I could approach this from another angle, and try to extrapolate a Class from each character's life circumstances - for example, by speculating that Grandpa's inheritance of the Betty Crocker brand makes him a potential Heir - but that's clearly not an accurate method, given that literal heiress Feferi is a Witch.

See, Classes are a tough nut to crack! The main issue here is that the comic has given us very little to work with - it's been tight-lipped on Titles in general, and there's been almost no exposition on Classes specifically.

It might be easier just to try and assign Aspects to each of the non-Players - so that's what I'm going to do. I'll also take the opportunity to put forward my best guess for what each Aspect means.

Without further ado:

Time means time.

This one seems extremely straightforward. Not all the Aspects are quite so literal - Breath, for example, seems more closely related to wind than the body function it's named after - but Time is about engaging directly with its namesake. It may have other meanings as well, but we haven't seen any yet.

If you wield Time, then you're the session's designated time traveler - which is a lot less cool than it sounds, because it means you're on Doomed Timeline cleanup duty. Enjoy the corpse disposal!

Both of the comic's Time Players have fashioned their own personal time machines out of musical instruments. Music seems to have some connection to Time - which makes sense, since it's an art form of pitch, rhythm and beat. Music is time.

We can also talk for a second about Dave's Quest. As we'll see, each Land Quest seems to directly concern the Player's Aspect. Dave's Quest is to...

...um.

Well, one of these is Dave's Quest. The LOHACse is the only one of the two which is directly related to Time, but I've speculated that Dave's sword-in-the-stone quest will involve him rewinding Caledfwlch to an earlier point in its timeline. Plus, the Caledfwlch quest also speaks to Dave's Class as a Knight, so I think it's the real one.

For the sake of completeness, let's also talk about the Time Lands. Each Land always seems to feature one trait which either directly or obliquely references its Player's Aspect. LOHAC is self-explanatory, but Aradia's Land of Quartz and Melody is an interesting case, as its 'Aspect trait' could be either of its two descriptors. Quartz could reference the quartz in a modern clock, and Melody could reference the musical connection I mentioned above.

I can't think of any non-Players with particularly strong ties to Time - aside from the Felt and Lord English, who we know very little about. Let's say they're all Time Players, and English rules over them as a Prince of Time. As a mob boss and destroyer of worlds, he undoubtedly shares some of Eridan's megalomania.

Space... well, we actually don't have much for Space. We haven't seen Jade or Kanaya do anything with their Aspect, nor do we know anything about their Quests.

We do know that both Space Lands contain the Forge, so maybe there's something to that. Presumably it's going to forge something, and I think it's probably where you're supposed to create the universe. If your task is literally to create Space, it makes sense that a Space Player would take point - but that begs the question of what would happen in a session without a Space Player.

Maybe the game prefers a Space Forge, but it can spawn on another Land in lieu of one - or maybe Space is the 'default' Aspect, and it's actually mandatory in every session.

As far as Space's symbolism is concerned, my assumption is that it's as straightforward as Time, but we'll need to see more.

While I'm here, I guess I should dip my toe into this hot mess.

Yes, LOFAF's Space Word does appear to be Frogs. Yes, that does imply that Kanaya's was also Frogs, or something equally mysterious. No, I do not know what this could possibly mean.

These frogs are apparently heralds for their god, Bilious Slick, whose shadow has been looming over the comic for months now. I guess their appearance on the Space Lands implies that Slick is Space themed, which is at least consistent with my theory that he's the final obstacle between the Players and their universe.

Moving on, because I give up.

(Oh, and if anyone's a Space Player, it's Bec. You could also make an argument for Mom Lalonde, since her home was fitted with an observatory, but that's very tenuous. We don't know much about Space, so I don't know how else to tie a character to the Aspect.)

There's a lot going on with Light.

All Quests so far have had ties to the Player's Aspect, so whatever Jaspers thinks he's talking about here should have something to do with Light.

Jaspers... seems to be talking about different ways to represent information, and instructing Rose to find a particular DNA sequence. (I have to assume this isn't the MEOW sequence, because I don't think Sburb wants Rose to fill LOLAR's oceans with First Guardians.) So, it sort of looks like Light is information, doesn't it?

Well... maybe. See, things are are complicated by the fact that Dave's Quest above was also Knight-themed, so this spiel from Jaspers could be partially Seer-themed. How can we tell which is the Seer stuff, and which is the Light?

Recently, Rose said this, seemingly confirming that her Title is about information ('knowing shit'), and also implying that the 'knowing' is a Seer thing.

This allow us to compare her to Terezi, the other Seer. As we'll see below, she specializes in discerning people's personalities and motivations - literally, seeing into their minds - so it sounds like being a Seer is about perceiving or 'seeing' things that relate to your Aspect.

Rose, the Seer of Light, should therefore have an advanced perception of Light - but just what is Light? What can Rose see?

Well, she says she can see 'the big picture'.

I think Rose's powers allow her to zoom out, understand the broad strokes of a situation, and see how it all ties together - and I think that is the essence of Light.

Dave wonders how he's going to navigate the Furthest Ring's twisted-up space, so she scans the overall situation with her Light powers, and vaguely understands that it won't be a problem. Dave will be able to play his part.

However, if he asked why, exactly, it won't be a problem, or how he's going to do it, she'd be stumped. That's not her department.

I think I sort of understand what Light means now, but I can't think of a succinct way to describe it. The zooming-out Aspect, maybe? The everything-is-connected Aspect? The don't-sweat-the-details Aspect?

Guys, I think I'm starting to understand Homestuck!

Ah, shit.

Yeah, I don't know how Vriska or her powers slot into this interpretation. As the Thief of Light, I guess she'd be stealing... the bigger picture... from other people? And that lets her take their luck, somehow?

I guess when you give yourself 'good luck', you are sort of improving your situation in the general sense, rather than the specific. You don't know the details of how your luck will manifest, but you don't really need to - all you need to know is that it'll be good for you.

I don't know. This is getting messy, and more than a little abstract. I'm sure Vriska will be doing a lot of luck-stealing, so we'll hopefully learn more as we go.

At least the Land of Maps and Treasure fits Light-as-the-big-picture. A map is, literally, a big picture.

A flurry of disquieting happenstance is related to the ADORED SOVEREIGN. With no other options, her counsel is all that is left to be sought. Abdication is never ideal. But in the face of inevitable conquest, conceding ground can supply the only remaining advantage.

WQ, then, seems like a good fit for a Light Player. After listening to PM's full report, she seems to understand how the pieces fit together.

The Queen knows that Jack wants her dead, and clearly understands how dangerous a Player item can be, in the wrong hands. She doesn't know what's in the package, or what Jack will do with it - but she doesn't need to. She can see the writing on the wall, so she retreats.

I did a bit of Breath research for this post, and landed on the above quote. I think Breath is about direction and destination.

TT: John? TT: Are you there? -- tentacleTherapist [TT] is now an idle chum! -- EB: hey, yeah i'm here! EB: and not dead i think. TT: I know. TT: I've been watching you scramble through the house like a lunatic. TT: You should have answered me sooner.

John's a meandering kind of guy. He's wandered haphazardly around the session for three thousand pages, but he always seems to reach his goal. Despite not knowing where to go, he always seems to be where he needs to be.

John's Quest as the Heir of Breath has been explained in detail. He needs to unclog the pipes of LOWAS and defeat Typheus, freeing his Land's fireflies from their cloudy prison. In essence, John's Quest is to give these bugs a new direction, allowing them their full axis of movement once again.

There might also be some Heir stuff in this Quest, but its ultimate goal seems to align pretty well with that Breeze quote above, so I'm willing to accept it as Breath evidence.

AG: Have you ever tried to fly? I 8et you haven't! AG: How a8out we take to the skies, Pupa! AG: Hahahaha, oh you like that idea, Pupa? Yes, you do. I can feel it in your simple, mallea8le 8rain. AG: You want to fly so 8ad!

Breath might also have something to do with agency - or at least, the ability to choose your own actions. John's freedom-themed Quest isn't the only example of this - Tavros's entire arc is about how Vriska keeps denying him agency, while pretending she's doing the opposite.

(I'm going to avoid comparing Homestuck to other works, because this post is long enough as it is, so you're just going to have to imagine the twelve paragraphs of Deltarune meta that would otherwise be placed here.)

AT: bECAUSE THE ONLY TIME i EVER HAD FUN PLAYING THIS GAME WAS WHEN i WAS ASLEEP,

Tavros just wanted to do his own thing. He wanted to ignore the game and float around Prospit, away from everyone's expectations - but he was denied this opportunity, again and again. It's no wonder that he's on a bit of a high right now, after being granted the freedom of his new robo-legs.

As for potential Breath Players - well, CD reminds me of John a little, but he seems a lot more likely to stay on task. I don't know what Aspect he'd be assigned.

Now - we're onto the Aspects we've only seen in trolls. We don't have as much for most of these, since we haven't seen any troll Quests, nor any Aspect powers sans Vriska and Terezi.

Terezi, the Seer of Mind, deals in personality - or maybe, more generally, vibes.

CG: WE'RE NOT EXILING JACK, HE'S COOL. [...] GC: [...] 1 DO NOT G3T 4 GOOD F33L1NG FROM H1M! GC: H3 K1ND OF CG: STINKS? [...] GC: W3LL GC: SORT OF GC: H3 DO3SNT SM3LL B4D 4CTU4LLY GC: H3 SM3LLS R34LLY CL34N 4ND SH1NY 4ND D4RK D4RK D444RK L1K3 4N O1L SL1CK 4ND TH3R3 1S 4 T1NY H1NT OF L1COR1C3 TH3R3 TOO GC: 1TS MOR3 L1K3 GC: TH3 W4Y H3 MOV3S GC: 1 SM3LL H1S SMOOTH MOT1ONS 4ND TH3 W4Y H3 SQU1NTS H1S 3Y3S 4ND 1T G1V3S M3 TH1S R34LLY N3RVOUS F33L1NG

When she smells someone, her Mind-enhanced perception doesn't just tell her what they look like - it also seems to communicate that person's essence. Terezi can see the idea of Jack Noir, here. She's smelling what it feels like to be inside his head.

GC: TH3 D4Y 1T H4PP3N3D W4S TH3 F1RST T1M3 1 3V3R H34RD FROM MY LUSUS GC: SH3 WOK3 M3 UP, 4ND 3V3R S1NC3 H4S B33N T34CH1NG M3 4 D1FF3R3NT W4Y TO S33 GC: 4 D1FF3R3NT W4Y TO P3RC31V3 3V3RYTH1NG 1 GU3SS, NOT JUST 1N 4 S3NSORY W4Y

Terezi is also a naturally perceptive person, so it's sometimes unclear whether her reads are due to Seer clairvoyance or her own deductive abilities. As a general rule, I'll only treat her insight as a Mind power if she explicitly refers to her sense of smell as its source, since that's the avenue for her supernatural perception.

GC: T3LL M3 YOUR R34L N4M3!!! >:[ TG: ok lets say its TG: dave why not GC: D4V3! GC: TH4T SM3LLS L1K3 TRUTH GC: 1 W1LL D3C1D3 TO B3L13V3 1T >:] TG: fuck

Therefore, I'm pretty sure her powers do, in fact, allow her to detect lies. Mind, then, might be related to the concept of truth - as in, your Mind is the truth of who you are, stripped of all illusions.

I was initially going to place Droog here, since he seems to be the only Crew member with his head screwed on, but I no longer think Mind is about being rational or analytical.

Blood is the first Aspect I don't really have a guess for. Maybe it's got something to do with genetics - Karkat is a carcinoGeneticist, after all, and a mutant to boot.

Spades Slick is blood brothers with a Knight of Blood, and he's got a lot in common with Karkat, commanding his party with a moderately annoying leadership style. I'll put him here on the strength of those parallels, and I can revisit it when Blood is explained.

We don't know much about Nepeta, so we don't know much about Heart. Shipping is all about drawing them, though, so maybe Heart is about romance - or, more broadly, relationships and connections.

Nepeta's Land of Little Cubes and Tea is a lolcat joke, so it might not conform to the Aspect Word pattern. I guess, since the cubes are sugar cubes, it might be a pun on 'sweetheart'? Who knows.

I'll put Hearts Boxcars here, and not just because of his name. He's the only member of the Midnight Crew with any interest in shipping.

Feferi revived Sollux with a kiss, so Life is probably healing, as it is in many other element systems.

How her Land of Dew and Glass relates to Life is a mystery. While dew can refer to condensation on any surface, it's often used to describe the water droplets which accrete on grass and other flora. That's kind of a connection to a living thing, but feels like a stretch and a half.

Let's also put Nanna here, since she's the only true healer in the cast. I don't know why the other sprites don't use the healing beam.

Our Void Player is in a Land of Caves and Silence - a hole in the earth, and an absence of sound. Void seems to represent negation, or a lack of something.

Also - this might be a reach, but Scratch describes the gaps in his clairvoyance as 'pockets of void', so perhaps Void also has something to do with uncertainty - aka, a lack of information.

Most of the Guardians could go here, really. Bro seems the best fit, since he's constantly hiding from Dave, and completely vanishes for most of the session.

When a timeline is marked for destruction, we say that it's doomed.

Doom seems to represent death, obliteration and entropy. Sollux Entered into the Land of Brains and Fire, and I think it's pretty clear that Fire is the trait which is tapping his Aspect.

Doom may also be the Aspect of prophecy. After all, Sollux is a prophet of Doom - so maybe he's a prophet because of Doom. It could also be related to his nature as a Mage, but Mages haven't been explained, so I can't speculate.

I originally thought that Sollux might be a Seer - but the Seer Class seems to be about gathering information related to a particular Aspect, rather than directly divining the future. Maybe a Seer of Time could see future events, but it's certainly not a default ability of the class.

Grandpa seems to have some ties to Doom. He prophesized Jade's death to her when he told her about her dead Dream Self - plus, he's a hunter, with a house full of corpses. Also, his entire presence in the session is overshadowed by the spectre of his future death. This is probably the Aspect guess I'm most confident in.

I guess there's also Hope, a brand-new Aspect with no lore. Eridan's 'hope' would seem to be expressed in the fact that he constantly hits on people, hoping in vain for a yes. Thankfully, we're not aware of any non-Players like that....

The mail is the one final hope for resurrecting a dead planet from its ashes, and the letter carriers are the brave soldiers of God in this righteous crusade. They are the defenders of the light of knowledge, free communication, and the exchange of ideas. They are the bold toters of all those little papery conduits of freedom, the white postmarked angels that whisper a message on their deliverance, a promise to the yearning: "There is hope yet."

...but PM is pretty much screaming about hope in her mail monologue, so we'll put her here.

ORDER IN THE COURT. YOU WILL HAVE ORDER IN THIS COURTROOM. IF EVERYONE DOES NOT SETTLE DOWN YOU WILL CLEAR OUT THIS COURTROOM, YOU SWEAR TO GOD.

It's hard to classify the Aimless Renegade. He's all about crime and punishment - which is certainly a Terezi trait, but I don't think it's a Mind trait.

As for Dad, he has a well-established gentlemanly personality, but I don't know what Aspect is the most 'gentlemanly'.

I could try and classify more obscure characters like FedoraFreak, the Pen-pal, Jaspersprite or the Hussie self-insert, but I'll tell you right now I don't have any guesses. Still, that was fun, and it was a good opportunity for me to update my thoughts surrounding the Aspects!

#homestuck liveblog #full liveblog #act 5.2 #theories #asks #deep dives #classpect

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the-conversation-pod · 7 months ago

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Mixed Nuts, Part 2: Thoughts on Yaoi

And we're back! Japan is churning them out almost faster than we can keep up, so we dedicated a whole grab bag episode to give them the attention they're asking for. Ben, NiNi, Ginny, and Shan talk what's working and what's not in Japanese BL as we discuss Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun, One Room Angel, Perfect Propose, Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro Ka, I Want To See Only You and I Became the Star of a BL Drama.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Grab Bag Part 2: J-BL 00:02:22 - Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun 00:11:29 - One Room Angel 00:18:54 - A Note on MBS Tunku Shower 00:26:01 - Perfect Propose 00:49:27 - Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro ka 01:04:44 - I Want To See Only You 01:10:55 - I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama 01:26:16 - Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Grab Bag Part 2: J-BL

Ben

And we're back. Continuing into Grab Bag episode 2, this time we're going to talk about all the Japanese projects.

We are still with pod team members Ginny and Shan. Say hi, Ginny.

Ginny

Hello.

Ben

Say hi, Shan.

Shan

Hi again.

NiNi

We are here to talk about Japanese BL, Japanese drama, all things Japanese, aka Ben's favorite thing, aka Ginny's starting to become favorite thing, aka Shan's actual favorite thing, aka my I'm gettin’ there thing.

Ben

We will be talking about six shows this week. We're talking about Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun, One Room Angel, Perfect Propose, Although I Love You, and You? aka Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yara ka, I Want to See Only You, and I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama.

NiNi, take us in.

00:02:22 - Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun

NiNi

Let's start with Sahara-sensei, which I did not watch. So, Ben or Shan, who wants to complain about this?

Ben

Well, there's no need for you to watch it, bestie, because it was horrible!

Shan

Horrible!

Ben

Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun is a Japanese BL from MBS through Drama Shower about a juvenile delinquent who falls for a new teacher who seems to pay attention to him, and starts to reform his behaviors as a result of this relationship. But the teacher’s got his own baggage, and then the show makes a goddamn mess of all of this. And we have very many gripes to voice!

[exhales] It was not good. Ginny, did you watch this show?

Ginny

I did.

Ben

I feel like you were less pissed than me and Shan. Is that true?

Ginny

I'm usually less pissed than you and Shan.

Shan

I think it's just a natural state—[NiNi laughs]

NiNi

I don't think anybody could be as pissed as Shan. [Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

Right!

Ginny

Scaling for our norms, I think I was about as pissed. I really did not like the show.

Ben

Oh, yes! Go for it, Ginny! Tell it! Kill ‘em. Kill ‘em, bestie!

Ginny

I don't know anything about the source material, but it felt like it was trying to set up two taboo relationships: one teacher student, and one side ship that was sort of step-siblings. And then it completely whiffed both of those and decided, bizarrely, to deal with the taboo nature, particularly the main relationship, as if it simply isn't a taboo.

No one cared! No one cared that this teacher and student were having a romance. It was simply not addressed, or didn't seem to be a concern to anybody. It made the show baffling to follow because it was like they lived in this alternate universe where that doesn't matter, but other things like homophobia do matter—but only sometimes. It was not coherent.

I really enjoyed Toki, the juvenile delinquent. He was delightful. His actor was really fun, and that's really what kept me watching the show for however many episodes it was—six, eight, ten? Eight. That's what kept me watching the show for eight episodes, even though by about the midpoint, it really felt like it was not doing or saying anything interesting.

Ben

Shan, go in and let have.

Shan

Okay, I will! This show is fucking infuriating. I am still so mad every time I think about it.

Ben

[laughs] I can hear it in her voice.

Shan

Ugh! Here's the thing with the teacher student trope: it can be done well. It has been done well. The way that you do this trope well is that you take that relationship seriously. You have to care in the story that there is a power dynamic here, that a teacher has a role to play and a job to do with regard to their students, that they are an adult who is meant to be trusted to guide their students to good life choices, to their own social/emotional wellbeing, to care about their futures, to care about their education. This show just utterly, utterly failed on that front, and it makes the teacher character here completely irredeemable and unbelievable as an education professional. At no point did this show take its own concept seriously. It wanted us to engage with this romance as if this was just a normal teen love story between a teenage boy and a slightly older boy. There was no reckoning with the fact that this was his teacher.

The biggest sin, among many, was that we were shown through the story that Toki was not actually helped by this relationship with Sahara-sensei. We were shown that Toki—because of his feelings for his teacher, and because of his desire to impress this prospective love interest—that he made choices that were harmful to him. That he did not seek help when he was being bullied. That he did not take his education and his assignment seriously because he was too focused on this crush. We began the show with the notion that he was a juvenile delinquent who needed support and mentorship. He's a good kid, a nice kid, a kind kid, and he just needed some guidance. But he didn't get any fucking guidance from this teacher.

Instead, what he got was a distraction and an extraordinarily self-centered adult who really only cared about what he was getting—the confidence boost that he was getting—out of this relationship with his student. Did not look out for this kid, did not help him focus on his studies, did not help him prepare for his future, and did not help him in any meaningful way with the problems that he was experiencing at school.

This show literally ended with Toki [volume increases] graduating, walking out of the school building, spotting Sahara, and chucking his diploma into the fucking bushes so that he could run and kiss his boyfriend, because school's over now and he doesn't have to care about appearances anymore. I actually could not fucking believe that. And the wildest part of all of this is that the show doesn't seem to have any awareness about it. This is not a narrative about a student getting so obsessed with a teacher that he loses his way. This is just being presented as a straightforward, happy and positive romance that we're supposed to root for. It is one of the most baffling things I have ever fucking seen.

NiNi

Tell ‘em why you mad, son! Tell ‘em why you mad! [laughs]

Ben

Bestie, everything you said was true and correct. I will add further that this show does not get the benefit of the doubt of being BL to cop out about a lot of this because of the backstory they give on Sahara and Nekoto—his junior in high school, now fellow teacher. The failure of their relationship is grounded in the realities of homophobia and taboo, so there's no way to approach the Sahara-Toki relationship under the guise of “any m/m attraction is fine because BL,” because the show draws attention to the social and political realities of queerness.

And it's especially frustrating because Sahara actually gives decent guidance to another student: the Todo character, who is playing injured as a basketball player. Sahara talks him down from going into a match that he shouldn't because he's hurt in a way that I thought was really excellent from an educator, because he doesn't tell the kid, “You shouldn't play.” He asked the kid pointed questions, making the kid self-introspect and recognize for himself that he should not play. Which only exacerbates the issues that Shan eloquently highlighted just now about how fucked up this whole thing is, because he does not bring that same awareness to the relationship he has with Toki. It is such a weird experience with this show and I really hated it.

Ginny

I think that about covers it. It just feels like it didn't know what it was trying to do, and it did everything badly.

NiNi

I think that's an excellent tagline. [Ben laughs] So, those of you who watched it, it's time to rate.

Shan, you first.

Shan

I gave it a 3, and I think reflecting in this moment, I want to lower it to a 2. I'm giving it a 2.

Ben

I agree. Go ahead. Ginny?

Ginny

Oh man, so I give it a 6.5. [Ben hmms] I simply don't finish shows that I'm gonna rate lower than a 4 or a 5. On the surface level, there were moments that I really enjoyed about this. As I said, I did like the performance of the Toki character in particular, so I gave it some credit for that.

Ben

I agree with Shan. I originally gave this show a 4. I'm lowering it to a 3. [Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

Let's talk about it again in a couple of months, see where we land.

Ben

I'm giving the show a 3.5 from The Conversation. That is not how the math works, but that's what I'm giving it.

Shan

Feels right.

00:11:29 - One Room Angel

NiNi

Moving on to our next show, let's talk One Room Angel.

Ben, what is One Room Angel about?

Ben

One Room Angel is a story about a depressed man who ends up hanging out with an angel for a few weeks, it feels like, and starts to maybe come out of his depressive spiral as a result, which ends up with some really sad over- and undertones from what we learn about the angel character.

This is a kind of difficult show to talk about from a BL perspective, because I don't really think it's a BL. This wasn't really a romance. From my understanding, the angel character is significantly younger in the source material, and I get why they maybe chose not to go that direction. Shan had more complex thoughts, I think, than I did about the genre assignment of this show.

Shan

I like this show. I just want to say that upfront, I think it's a really beautiful show, a really thought-provoking show. I think it has some really interesting things to say about depression and self worth and finding meaning and life and the will to live. I liked all of its themes. I liked the characters.

I do think that it feels incomplete as a narrative, and it feels like there was supposed to be a romance arc here that got removed. I don't know if that's true, I haven't read the source material, but that's kind of how it felt upon watching it. I don't think it's a BL. There's no romance here. There's what feels more like a platonic friendship to me between Koki and the Angel.

This show has some of the most beautiful cinematography that we've seen in Drama Shower. Some of the visual imagery is really striking, and I still think about it off and on. I like the way that they constructed Koki as this character who is kind of downtrodden, but kind at his core. He's just been through some shit, he's had a hard life. And I like that, I like that he was someone who was very easy to sympathize with. The Angel was a good foil for him. He would come at him in ways that would provoke him and give him some spark, make him feel a little bit alive again, which was what was missing and what was so important.

I think the show wasn't that strong on unpacking the mystery of the Angel and who he had been in his life, and connecting that back to Koki. I think there were a few different threads here and they didn't all come together seamlessly, but I did really like the core story of healing.

I do have feelings about this tendency we're seeing recently in the MBS Drama Shower shows of sprinkling in some non-BLs in the lineup. This is a dedicated time slot that is explicitly meant to be for BL shows, and there have been a couple now in the lineup that don't really fit that bill, and so I do kind of regret that we got this show as part of the Drama Shower lineup instead of another BL. But I'm glad we got the show. I like it a lot. I think it has some good things to offer.

Ben

Ginny, were you able to watch this show?

Ginny

I was! In the interest of precision, because we're talking about it not being a romance, which I do kind of agree with. They do have a conversation about being boyfriends, and they have this cute little beach date and stuff, but it feels like something that's sort of tacked on to make it fit in the BL space. It doesn't feel like it's actually part of their story. The connection that grows between them is, but the romance was not really played out. So even though they kind of give it lip service, it doesn't feel like it's there, which is why we're all saying it's not a romance. I think my favorite thing about the show was the Koki character.

Ben

This is Ginny's favorite character type: the hot mess. [Ginny and Shan laugh]

Ginny

I love a hot mess. I do. He's older, which I also like. He's not especially pretty, which is a nice change of pace. And he's just so down in it and can't seem to get himself out. I do like the story of him sort of getting forced roommate Angel therapy, basically. So yeah, I enjoyed it. I didn't deeply love it.

For the themes that it was getting into, it could have gone deeper. It's got some really dark material in both of the characters' backstories, and it didn't feel to me like it really followed through strongly enough on the resolutions to those things. But it also wasn't a total miss.

Ben

I ended up feeling really complicated about this show. I feel like I was very unfairly comparing it to Eternal Yesterday a lot, and because it wasn't BL I was a little bit frustrated that this time slot was going into non-BL content. Like, it feels like the original thing was BL, and they decided in their adaptation not to lean into the potential romance between an adult and a high school student. A totally fine adaptation choice, but it's like, why adapt this work then? It doesn't exactly work for me as a result.

I really liked the Angel character. I liked how sassy he was, and pushy he was about stuff. Nishimura Takuya; loved the way he played the Angel character. I really liked the aesthetic with his all-white outfit the whole time. I really liked the effort that the costuming department put into his wings. That was not easy, particularly on the budget that Drama Shower was clearly working on. I thought they got a lot of good work out of the animatronics of his wings. I really wish we had gotten more about Koki's yakuza based trauma. There's an allusion to this with the brother that feels a bit incomplete for me. Or the stuff with his mom, Arisa.

There's like a weird ambiguity with the end of this too, where some of the viewers thought that Koki also died at the end, tragically.

Ginny

What?

Shan

Wait, what? I don't think—he didn't die.

Ben

I didn't think he died, but apparently that was one of the reads.

Shan

Fascinating.

Ginny

Huh.

Shan

That didn't occur to me, but you can't really argue with it in a show that leaves things this unfinished.

Ben

Exactly, and that's why I was a little unsettled by it towards the end, because I'm like, “Well, I can't refute that, but also damn!” [Shan laughs] “Y'all killed this man so they could fuck? Shit!”

Okay. [Ginny laughs]

Shan

[laughs] Oh boy, we better wrap it up there.

Ben

So let's rate this experience. Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it a 7. Not bad for what it was. Not great.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it an 8. I liked some of what it was trying to do, but I don't think it fully got there on all of its storylines or really on its themes.

Ben

I gave it an 8 originally. I think I'm going to downgrade it to a 7.5, so we'll give it a 7.5 from The Conversation.

00:18:54 - A Note on MBS Tunku Shower

Ben

Let's discuss Drama Shower before we move to the other projects. As of this recording, we are almost at the end of My Strawberry Film, the last outing from Drama Shower Season 2, and currently MBS has not renewed the Drama Shower time slot for additional projects. They may renew this in the future, but let's talk on the podcast how we feel about Drama Shower after almost 11 projects, the role this time slot has fulfilled, and our complex reactions to all of the projects.

Ginny

I like that they did so many different kinds of things. Almost none of the Drama Shower shows are favorites of mine. There are a lot that I quite liked, and a few that I could see rewatching, but I do appreciate the commitment to do and try a bunch of different things. I hope that something like it gets renewed or gets put in place because, as we discussed a little bit last time talking about genre, I want to see experimental BL. I want to see different ideas and frameworks being explored, even ones that we hated like Sahara-sensei and Toki-kun. I would rather they make a bag of shows that includes a terrible one than just crank out the same reliable favorites, so. While I don't love most of the individual shows, I feel positively about the project.

Ben

Shan, how are you feeling?

Shan

I'm sad at the prospect that Drama Shower might not continue. It did produce one of my all time favorite BLs—Eternal Yesterday—and while I don't always love the shows, I love that we can rely on a steady progression of shows being released. When one show ends, we know the next is coming very soon. Japanese media can feel uncertain. We often don't find out about shows until right before they air. We often find out about a show, but then find out that it's not accessible to us, and we can't watch it. It's been nice to have kind of a steady, reliable place where we know we could go to find a Japanese BL, and I like how, you know, like Ginny said, how experimental it's been. They're doing a lot of different types of shows, a lot of different tones and styles.

A lot of them have been not my favorites. Maybe, like, mid to bad, but there have been a few real gems in this lineup. Not only Eternal Yesterday, but also shows like Jack o’ Frost and Tokyo in April is… These are shows that stuck with me, that I really enjoyed the watch experience for, and I hope that even if Drama Shower as a dedicated time slot doesn't come back, that MBS will keep churning out these shows and releasing them at a steady clip because I think that they are pretty solid. I really like this format for Japan, where they do these six- to eight-episode shows. These tight contained stories. Have a pretty clear sense of what they want to do most of the time, with some exceptions. And I'd like to see that continue.

We've had this kind of recent boom of Japanese BL. And I don't want that to go away. I want them to keep producing shows and I want to always have a Japanese BL airing, ideally. So yeah, I'm hopeful that if not this exact project, that something will come back, that we will continue to get shows that are interesting and a fun watch.

Ben

I'm also a bit sad that we might be losing Drama Shower because I really like what Azuma Kaoru has talked about with it from the little bits of translation we've gotten. They have a real commitment to BL as a genre and showcasing what BL can be. I like the Drama Shower has had two original projects both times it's run. Jack o’ Frost was original and My Strawberry Film is original, and whether or not we end up deciding that these projects were especially good or not, I actually think it's really healthy for BL as a genre to not be as tied to the developmental format where we basically just raid the closet and see what indie writers have been up to and then quickly adapt their shows. I'm really curious what knowing that you're developing for television right away enables with the storytelling.

So, I'm a little bit bummed that we don't know for sure if Drama Shower is coming back right now, but I've really enjoyed this entire project. My average rating for Drama Shower was just under 8, which feels correct. If you like BL, Drama Shower has been a really fascinating project because it's been so varied. We had some cool stuff that came out of it. I thought Mr. Unlucky had some cool ideas. I loved Eternal Yesterday. Takara-kun and Amagi-kun let me down slightly, but I liked it! Like, I liked almost every single one of these outings—except for fucking Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun.

Shan

They really had to come in and ruin it right at the end, didn't they? [laughs]

Ben

For fuck’s sake. I will miss this if we don't get it back, but I really like what we got from it.

NiNi, any thoughts on Drama Shower from sort of only getting our reactions to it and then being prodded about some of the shows?

NiNi

When you were talking to me about some of the Drama Shower shows, you basically were saying these are Japanese pulps. So I've tried to place them in the BL firmament, for me, according to them being mostly pulps. I've only watched three of the Drama Shower shows. I've watched Jack o’ Frost, I watched Tokyo in April, and I watched My Personal Weatherman. Of those three, Jack o’ Frost is easily my favorite, but the shows that I've watched coming out of Japan that weren’t Drama Shower in the last year or two were actually the ones that I enjoyed overall more. So, while I appreciate the role of Drama Shower, what it has done in giving a dedicated time slot, much like in Thailand GMMTV Frigay was a dedicated time slot to help build some bits of the genre. This is kind of similar.

It's a lab, and I think that the genre needs its labs. I think Drama Shower is a good lab, and I'm sure we're going to get another good lab out of Japan again soon. So, yeah, I think that the project was worthy. I only really watched a little bit of it, but I think I could also see how some of the things that it was working through have already started to percolate a little bit through some of the other stuff that we're getting out of Japan. Specifically out of MBS, but also are some of the other places.

00:26:01 - Perfect Propose

Ben

On to our next show: Perfect Propose.

NiNi

Yes, bring it on! I love this show.

Ben

Shan, would you like to describe Perfect Propose for us?

Shan

Sure. Our protagonist Hiro, who is extremely overworked, exhausted, very stressed out by his soul-sucking corporate job, is found, passed out on the sidewalk, by his childhood friend? Sweetheart? Question mark. I think they see that slightly differently, but a childhood friend named Kai, who has also just come into some personal hardship. Kai decides to move in with Hiro to take care of him and also so he has a place to stay. And the story is primarily about Hiro seeing his way out of this really horrible burnout situation that he finds himself in with Kai’s support.

Ben

Second chance romance is my favorite thing in BL [Shan trills] so I had a great time with this show. One of the things the show really focused on was how fucking horrible Hiro's fucking job was.

Shan

Mmhmm.

NiNi

Listen! Oh my God, it was too real.

Ben

I want to talk about that part first because, while I think we all have mostly positive things to say about Hiro and Kai's relationship, I don't want to downplay that particular portion, because the show cared a lot about. And I know, Ginny, you landed on the uncomfortable to slightly put off side of that presentation. It's rare that I see you repulsed when we're watching something. And it was interesting seeing you have a difficult time with that.

Ginny

My issue really was that, as the second half of the show came into play, it became clear that this wasn’t primarily a romance. This was a story about Hiro escaping his soul-sucking corporate job and also being more attentive to his body in the most fundamental sense of, like, his needs as a human being. I felt like I'd been a little bit bait and switched. The setup of the first couple episodes, tt's very much about Kai offering him this physical nurturance, including sexual attention that he was in need of, and possibly their relationship growing. And then it let that be nothing more than a catalyst for Hiro to leave his situation. There was like an episode and a half that were really just fully dedicated to the misery of his job and how and why he was so stuck in it.

I was just like, they're doing this well, but I didn't sign up for it and I'm not enjoying it. [laughs] So that was my experience.

Ben

I respect that. While we're talking about the job stuff, I want to go to NiNi, because I think of all of us, you had the strongest response to the corporate culture stuff.

NiNi

Oh my God, it was like I was seeing myself. So, if you listen to us, you will know that I'm doing this thing where I've restarted my life in my 40s. And the reason that I'm doing it is because I left a job like this. I left a soul-sucking job where I was being gaslit and basically burnt out and destroyed, and so this was almost like a healing drama for me. I would just settle in like, “oh, I'm gonna stab the boss. Oh, he's making him food. I want somebody to make me food. This is so awesome. I'm so glad. Is he gonna get out? I need him to get out. Hell, I need all of them to get out. Why don't they all quit?”

Like, I was having that running commentary in my head while I was watching the show. It was very cathartic for me. I enjoyed everything about it. It was too real. The gaslighting from their boss, especially, was the part that sort of sent me a little bit into a crouch. I was just like, “oh, I'm having flashbacks,” but I needed it. I needed to see Perfect Propose.

It wasn't just an enjoyment for me. It was something I needed to excise from my life and I was able to do it through Perfect Propose. So, it was great for me. The experience was so cathartic. Can't complain about it at all. Fantastic.

Ben

Shan, I remember you having some thoughts because, I don't know that you lived through this sort of stuff directly, but you know colleagues who did.

Shan

Yeah, I'm, I think more on NiNi’s side of the line with this, in that I experienced it as more cathartic and healing. I have been in some toxic workplaces. I've never been in quite the kind of place that Hiro was in in this story like NiNi has. But, I thought it was just a really authentic presentation of that kind of work experience. I thought it was a really genuine representation of the dynamics that can come up in a workplace like that.

One of my favorite things that happened in the show is that Hiro's supervisor left and Hiro became the supervisor, and then he was put in the position of having to drive his team to do the kind of things that he had been driven to do. And he was realizing how limited his options were for breaking that cycle. And I thought that that was just such an important note to include here. It's not the people within the system that are the problem, it's the system itself and it's all reinforcing.

Ben

I was also Hiro in my last job and my team and I, we quit—on my birthday, no less. What an incredible experience. So I started the age of 32 [laughs] unemployed. Which was fun.

I really liked that the show leaned into the work culture aspect of it, that Hiro's previous supervisor was like. “You need to quit, too. Like, I'm leaving. I got a better offer. You are way better than these people allow you to think of yourself as. You should quit, too.” I loved Hiro staying because he thought he needed to insulate his team from that kind of hell. And I love that he failed, spectacularly. Like, he tried to save a younger dev from that and he couldn't.

I really appreciated that they show that there's no amount of effort that overcomes that sort of nonsense. A lot of the times when they do the adult BL, the work part of being an adult feels kind of missing or nebulous. They're mostly using work to recreate the cliquish dynamics of high school to tell those sort of stories, and I really appreciate it that this show, and the next show we're going to talk about actually, don't do that.

I want to refocus now that we've talked about really fucked up, sad work part of this, on the relationship between Kai and Hiro. Part of what locked me in on this show, right away was Kai literally picks passed out Hiro up off the street, takes him back to his house, feeds him some proper food, and then jerks him off so he can go to sleep. Hiro was more than a little overwhelmed by all of this. But that man's skin cleared up the next day.

NiNi

[laughs] He was looking refreshed, restored, rejuvenated.

Ben

We had some complex reactions in our own circle and online about that particular encounter. Ginny, I want to get your commentary on this part because I think you often have the most nuanced appreciation of sexual moments that carry a level of dubious consent. And I wonder if you have any thoughts about that.

Ginny

One thing that you and I have talked about, Ben, is people often put male-female frameworks onto these shows. Which is not to say that consent isn't a problem between men, ‘cause it for sure is. But the way that these dynamics play out and the way that the core relational dynamics between men work is not always comparable and can't always be mapped onto a male-female dynamic.

How I read this scene and how I think it was intended to be read is Hiro can't say, “Oh yes, do this, please,” because he's not in a headspace to accept that this is something that he could want from another man, or really at all. And again, it's really difficult to talk about this without inviting people to map it on all kinds of other situations where it doesn't belong. So please don't do that. But the way this scene is constructed felt very clearly to me like, this is something that Hiro is willing to let happen to him and maybe needs to let happen to him, but is not able to affirmatively say yes to because of where he is in his head, and especially with the way that intimacy develops between the characters later fulfilled the storyline that they set up in that first scene.

NiNi

I feel like this is a place we always land up in with Asian media because of the ways that Asian media portrays and puts forward ideas about what is acceptable sexually, what it is acceptable to want and not want, how it is acceptable to relate in a sexual manner. I feel like these always come up when we're dealing with Asian media. People talk about wanting to change the conversation in Asian media around this kind of stuff, and I fully understand that.

But this story read to me pretty old school yaoi and because of that I got where the headspace of the story was coming from. Like you said, Ginny, this can't be mapped on to everything else. But in this specific story I saw where it was coming from.

Ben

For me, I think I would have been more concerned about their dynamic if not for the morning after conversation in the bathroom. The energy in that scene was Kai being very attentive and almost doing, like, aftercare with Hiro, who was clearly into the dynamic with that whole scene with the hair gel and then him giving him the key so he could stay and then the next episode being like, why has nothing happened since that moment? Which also, like NiNi said, is very old school yaoi.

Shan

Sexual encounters with dubious consent happen a lot in life. It's a thing that happens. I don't need every depiction of it in fiction to be accompanied by someone turning to the camera and saying, “That was dubious consent, and it's bad.” Instead of just letting the context of the story and the characters’ reactions let us know what their headspace was and why it happened.

And I think that the show did that. I think that we understood Hiro and Kai's dynamic well as the show progressed. I think that we saw a pattern develop where Hiro would hope for or want something from Kai, but wouldn't ask for it. And Kai could read him and see what he was going for. I like that Kai got to a point of teasing him about that and pushed him to ask for the things he wants or come right out and say or do something to confirm it. I thought it was quite legible what the show was going for here, so I was not troubled by it. They did a good job of building a believable dynamic for them of Hiro coming to rely on Kai for all kinds of different comforts and as his main source of care and pleasure.

Ben

I think they did a great job conveying that Kai was totally down for Hiro the whole time without it feeling, like, possessive. I particularly enjoyed around—was it episode 5 when they had that kiss on the bench where he's like,”Hirokuni-san, have you made your decision yet?” I thought that was great.

Shan

Pairing that with teasing him with the shots of the delicious dinners he was making at home, that Hiro wasn't making it home to eat. I think the message from Kai always, consistently, was this is all here for you. You just gotta take it. And I like that. That felt adult to me.

Ben

I want to talk about Kai a little bit. We know that Hiro is obviously at the end of his rope when we first see him passed out on the street, people walking past him. We learned fairly quickly that Kai is also kind of at the end of his rope. He's been a neglected, lonely child for a long time, and the only other person who ever seemed to give a shit about him was in the midst of a health crisis, and that guy's son was keeping him away from the dad because he didn't understand their relationship.

NiNi

I really liked, actually, that part of the issue that Kai was having with his boss and his son was that Kai couldn't ask for what he wanted out of the boss. He clearly saw the boss as a father figure and the boss saw him as a son figure, but he couldn't talk about it. It's very Japanese. He couldn't presume and he couldn't put himself in a position where he appeared presumptuous. So he had to take a step back. Be polite. He couldn't say certain things. He couldn't behave in certain ways. This is the situation, I'm going to make myself as small as possible in this situation. And then once it got to the point where he felt like maybe he could have presumed a little more, the son started to understand, “Okay, this is actually sort of a father son dynamic here,” the son backed down immediately. He was just like, “I'm sorry. I didn't understand what you guys were to each other.”

I really liked that. I am often the one who complains about the Japanese non-communication or Japanese communication and how it is frustrating for me, but I thought this was a really good use of it, of Japanese cultural expectations around family and not wanting to be presumptuous about certain things. I really think that it played out really well here. I quite enjoyed that.

Ben

I love the relationship between Kai and the restaurant owner. Few things are more important to a boy than bonding with an older, grumpy man and connecting in the same grumpy way. It's extremely important to your development.

Shan

I like what you said NiNi about Kaiju's inability to communicate what Kenji meant to him and what he was seeking from the relationship, and I like that that was mirrored in Kenji, the restaurant owner, also not being able to say out loud what the deal was, like, why this boy mattered to him. He also kept his mouth shut and didn't explain it to his son, I think for similar reasons. They have a very emotional bond that they both found hard to talk about or justify to other people. I did like that.

I will say, though, that I do think that the Kai side of this show is the weaker element, perhaps of the story. Hiro's narrative was the main narrative, but Kai had a story too, and I do think it didn't get the fullness that Hiro's did, and it was one area where I wanted a little bit more from the show than what we got.

Ginny

This is more to my personal preferences than necessarily show doing right or wrong. I was much more interested in Kai and his situation than in Hiro's situation, so I also would have liked to see more of it. There were a lot of layers to the ways that Kai and Hiro each struggled to take care of themselves or see themselves as deserving care. We did get that fully played through with Hiro and we didn't really get to see Kai’s own dovetailing/mirror image issue of that fully realized and I would have liked to see it.

Ben

Getting back to some of the adult things I really liked in this, I really liked the whole missed opportunity around the festival because Hiro is unable to leave his job and tell him to fuck off. And I really liked Kai, just sort of accepting that disappointment, but getting something kind of interesting out of it by growing the strawberries in the tank they were hoping to use for something else.

I really liked the failure of that moment. Hiro getting mad with himself on Kai's behalf and being frustrated that Kai didn't presume more from him and voicing all of the ways that he kind of was a jerk about the whole festival thing. I think that was one of my favorite moments in the show where Hiro gets mad, but doesn't really have a great outlet for it because he knows he's the one who's at fault. And so Kai's telling him, “It doesn't matter, like, you don't owe me anything,” only frustrated him even more.

NiNi

Yeah, because he wants Kai to expect things of him by that point, and he's not even entirely sure why. But he does want Kai to feel like he has responsibilities towards him.

Ginny

You do see Hiro consistently more upset about other people not getting what they deserve than himself [Shan mmhmms] with Kai in that situation and with his new underlying when he becomes the team lead.

Ben

I'm never getting over that man having a couch that matches the aesthetic of the chairs in his office.

Shan

I clocked that in the first episode and I was so depressed. I was like, no!

[Shan and Ben laugh]

Ben

I remember you pointed it out first.

Shan

I was like y'all, are you seeing these colors? I'm not usually a colors person, either. I don't usually notice that shit. But that was so striking to me that the one pop of color in his entire gray, sad home was that green couch that was the same green as the chairs in his office. Depressing as fuck.

Ben

Before we get to ratings, we gotta do a shout out for Hiori, the junior dev who was clearly a fujoshi who was keyed in right away to watch series.

[all laugh]

Shan

I loved her!

NiNi

She was so ready when they went on the work dinner and she was like, “All right, I'm headed out. I'm going home. Y'all are getting drunk. I'm not sticking around for this, I'm gonna catch the last train” and then Hiro’s drunk and somebody's like, “oh, we're gonna call the guy he's living with.” And she sat back down immediately, like, “He's coming here? I need to see this.”

Shan

Sat her ass right back down and ordered another beer. She was like, “Hell no, I'ma miss that train.”

NiNi

“I'm gonna pay for this Uber ride or this taxi and I'm gonna like it.”

Ben

I loved her. She was like, “Oh, shit, Am I gonna get to see him?” And she got everything she wanted. Kai showed up, sweaty.

Shan

Ooo, sweaty from his run. Mmm.

Ben

Glared at Konoko, like, “Don't you ever fucking put your hands on him ever again, I will fucking kill you. And she was, like, “I got everything I needed.”

[Shan laughs]

NiNi

She didn't even go home after that. She's just like, “Well, I need another drink because that was delightful.”

Ben

I do appreciate that we got to see Hiro, quit that job and stop prioritizing it at the end. Like, he woke up, clearly from them having a good session the night before, like “I ain't answering that fucking phone.” And we saw that the other employees have seemingly maybe left their job because they all looked like they were happy in the park. And they ran into Konoko, as well. So, I feel very relieved by the end of this drama.

Shan

I definitely interpret that group picnic at the end as confirmation that they have all left that awful job.

Ben

Particularly because Sakamoto was also there and I'm really glad that he looked okay.

NiNi

Listen, I was so worried about that kid. I was so worried that I stopped in the middle of my binge to ask. “Listen, you'll need to tell me if this kid is okay, because the last time I saw him, he was having a meltdown. And then they sent him home. And then I have not seen him. So y’all need to tell me that he's fine.” And they were like, “Yeah, he's fine” and then I was able to continue the show.

Ben

So, ratings! NiNi.

NiNi

I gave the show a 9.5. I agree with Shan and Ginny that I wanted to see a little bit more of Kai’s side of the story because I think it was actually quite intriguing. I understand that they didn't have a ton of time and they didn't use their time well, but I would have liked to see a bit more of the Kai side of things.

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it an 8.5. I think execution-wise it probably merits a 9, but I did dock it for my own personal enjoyment because it's my rating and I'm allowed.

Ben

Absolutely. Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 9. I agree with basically what NiNi said. I think if they had managed to drive home Kai’s side of the story a little firmer, it would have been a higher score for me. But it's a good show, I really liked it.

Ben

It's not an obvious recommend right away, because then they have to get involved in the discourse and so it’s hard for me to just go, “It's a 10. Go watch it right now!” But I like the show a lot, so I gave it a 9 because there are reasonable knocks on some threads not being fully completed and yaoi considerations around male sex that made me a little bit grumpy to deal with while we were watching this.

It gets a 9 from The Conversation. I liked it a lot, I think it's worth your time.

NiNi

I have to add, whenever I saw Kai’s hands, I kept thinking about the discussion I had with Ben about yaoi hands.

[all laugh]

Ben

He did have yaoi hands.

NiNi

He had massive hands!

Ben

I have started following that actor. His real smile is so fu,n he is worth following on IG.

NiNi

Bestie you know I don't do the socials, but for those of you who do.

Ben

I do. That's what I'm here for.

00:49:27 - Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro Ka

NiNi

Moving on to Although I Love You, And You?—Japanese title Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yara ka. Oh my God I can't believe I got that right the first time around.

Ben

Yeah, good job, bestie.

Shan

Good job, NiNi.

NiNi

I'm not gonna get it right again. So, Ben, what is Sukidoya about?

Ben

Sukidoya is a story about a burgeoning romance between a restaurant owner and a corporate salary man who has recently moved to Osaka from Tokyo. Both of these guys are coming out of failed relationships and find friendship and connection in each other. The restaurant owner already is very aware of his own queerness. Meets this guy and has an instant attraction to him and is determined to follow up on it, but decides that he should probably be a bit more cautious this time, particularly because of some of the cultural differences between Osaka and Tokyo. We get to see them try to sort through what their new potential relationship will look like with the complications that ensue.

This was another show that we had a lot of complicated discussions about while we were watching it. Because you have more consternation than others, Shan, we'll let you go first, and then we'll follow up.

Shan

This is a show that I wanted to like more than I ended up liking. I really loved the main characters in this show. I liked that there was what felt like a very adult setup for the romance. These were two adult men with pasts, with romantic histories who had exes that were present in the story and actually had roles to play. They were coming together across differences, both cultural differences and differences in how they had experienced romance in the past, differences in how they relate, differences in their hobbies and personalities. I was very interested in all of that and I was really excited to get what I thought was going to be a pretty adult narrative about figuring out how to be in a relationship together across those differences.

That's not really what the show ended up being about. There was a lot going on in the narrative here and some of it in the end didn't feel like it justified the amount of story time that it got. Some of it felt like it really derailed the story. There I'm speaking primarily about the insertion of a love triangle into the plot that I don't think ultimately served the story or the characters very well. Sakae’s ex, Mizuki, came into the story around the midpoint and I liked his inclusion initially, ‘cause I liked seeing this mature ex that was in the mix. It's very common for people to still have exes in their lives and we don't see it depicted very often in drama, and so I liked that he was around, that he was coming back into Sakae's orbit, that he was bringing up some issues for him that were maybe throwing a little bit of a wrench in this burgeoning romance that he had with Soga. But then the show really took that much further, turned it into a full blown love triangle, had Mizuki pursuing Sakae again, had him intervening in the romance, getting in the way, dating Sakae again briefly. It was a lot, ultimately, I think too much. It took up a lot of story time. It threw off the trajectory of Sakae and Soga’s relationship development. The pacing of the story felt pretty rushed. It felt like we hadn't really gotten to settle into any kind of relationship with them. Candidly, I am not generally a fan of love triangles. They can be done well and they have been, but this is a romance narrative in which a love triangle was kind of awkwardly inserted to create drama, and that's the kind I really don't like. That was a big negative for me on this show and threw off my investment in the romance.

But it's not a show that I wanna be too negative about. I like a lot of what it did. I did like these characters, this smaller town restaurant owner who's really genuine and straightforward, but maybe not the most socially graceful guy. Being into this nerdy, quiet guy who has nothing in common with him, trying to figure out how to relate to each other, trying to figure out how to communicate across their differences. I really liked those aspects of it. I left the drama wishing that we had gotten a story more focused on that and less on all this random stuff that they were throwing in to create conflict. In the end I was a bit frustrated with the show, but I like a lot of what it was doing and I hope that we'll get more shows like this that focus on adult characters.

Ben

I just learned some fun trivia while doing some research.

Shan

Oh?

Ben

NiNi, the screenwriter of Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yara ka is also the screenwriter on Three Star Bar in Nishi Ogikubo.

NiNi

The DNA is there. I could see it.

Ben

This is also one of the same directors who was on Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun.

NiNi

We shall not speak of it, bestie.

Shan

Don't bring them back into this. [laughs]

Ben

Ginny, of all the shows we're going to talk about tonight, you had, I think, the strongest connection to these particular characters, and I really want to hear your thoughts on them.

Ginny

While I agree that narratively the show did not hold together as strongly as it could, in every scene they were written well, they were acted well, they were consistent, they were who they were. And that, I think, was why I loved the show so much, as it played so well on a scene by scene level. Both of these are, in almost completely opposite superficial ways, men who struggle to advocate for what they want in life. Sakae is extremely a pushover. You see, as soon as his ex walks back into the scene, how difficult it is for him to say no and even earlier, as he and Soga are getting to know each other, it's very easy for him to fall into a rhythm of just doing whatever Sogo wants and enjoys and simply not advocating for himself or his interests at all. So he's this very kind of impulsively outspoken character. He keeps saying things that he doesn't mean to say, but when it comes to actually saying what he wants, he's slow to do that.

On Soga’s side, he's very reserved, and kind of doesn't feel confident enough, I think, in his own desires to advocate for them. Even though he clearly likes and feels very drawn to Sakae, he takes so much of the show trying to figure out exactly what that means and waffling on what to do with that. I really like seeing two characters with the same fundamental issue that expresses itself in such different ways come together and try to build a relationship.

My favorite part in the whole show is after they've started dating, they try to work out this conflict resolution system in such a characteristic way. Sakae knows Soga has been married before, so he says, “What was your ex-wife like? What was your relationship like?” Thinking in his head, “I'm going to become exactly like her, because clearly Soga liked her, so that will work out great and I foresee no problems with this.” And so Soga tells him about their conflict resolution style, which is not Sakae’s style at all, but they try it. They both kind of yes, and each other into doing something that's not gonna work for either of them and they try it for a while and then it falls apart and then they talk it out.

It all felt so real to me as a person who struggles to express and sometimes even to know what I want. I've been in relationships on both sides where that's a major factor and they played it out so beautifully realistically, while still feeling very fun. The show always felt light, even when it was headed into kind of a difficult moment between them. It never let the mood sink too much. I loved seeing that dynamic play out between them and the ways that they tried to work towards each other and often worked harder at making the other person happy than making themselves happy and had to kind of figure out how to do both at the same time.

NiNi

I liked you describing it as them yes, and-ing each other, because that's exactly what that felt like. It felt very improv. I really enjoyed that scene a lot.

Ben

I really liked that we got to see a homo jock trying to date a culture person. That was so fuckin’ funny to me. We don't get to see fitness gays that often, and I had such a great time as a result.

NiNi

It was delightful, and it was more of that city mouse, country mouse thing that they were trying to do, it was so fun. I wish that they had leaned more into the differences between them, more than the external factors.

Of the external factors, I really enjoyed the job one coming up and when it came up in the relationship, and the conflict that that posed. But I think that the ex-boyfriend thing was a bridge too far. I think it was important that we saw the ex-boyfriend to understand certain things about Sakae, but I don't think that they needed to drag that out into him trying to get Sakae back kind of thing.

Ben

I liked Mizuki as a character a lot and I liked them showing Sakae having an intimate, intense relationship with another person. I think on the pragmatic side, from talking about this as a drama, I'm more with Shan in that I don't know that this show set us up for the right expectations and that could be a cultural competency part on our part, because of the thing they were playing with, with the Osaka, Tokyo thing. But I was also hoping to spend more time with these guys as a functional couple perhaps than I think we got? I think it's fine for the show to do what they chose to do with their time, but I think I wanted something from the show it couldn't give us. I also got a little bit frustrated that there was way less food in the back half than there was in the front half because I signed up for a food show.

But, they did give me a great baseball moment, so maybe it’s okay.

Shan

[laughs] They did have a really good baseball scene. I was just gonna yes, and you Ben about the food. The food was a strong presence in the first half of the show. And then it did just kind of disappeared. I wouldn’t really call this a food drama, in the end.

I think one other piece that we kind of discussed live while we were watching that I do think is worth mentioning—not to single this show out, but to talk a little bit about a trend that exists, I think, across dramas—there was a quite a spicy sex scene between Sakae and Mizuki in this show. Far spicier than any scene we ended up getting for Sakae and Soga. Feels like a strange choice that they went to that heat level in a scene with his ex and then kept the heat so low on the current relationship.

One of the reasons I don't like it when dramas do that is because it kind of sends a message that only toxic relationships have hot sex in them, and that when you find your right person when you're truly in love, sex is not that important, or it's not part of the dynamic. And I don't think that's a good message. It's not a sex positive message, certainly—and I don't know or think necessarily that the show intended to do that here—but, it is kind of the effect of that choice that a lot of dramas make to only show hot sex in the context of toxic or old relationships and keep the main couple of a show kind of quote unquote pure. That stuck out to me in this show and nothing that came after that scene hit anywhere close to that heat level. So it did kind of stand out as a weird choice to me.

Ginny

In terms of the general trend, I certainly agree. It is worth noting that that scene was specifically happening in Soga’s imagination, so it wasn't like, “This was how it was.” It's like, “This is how Soga is thinking about Sakae and his ex.” Which in the context of the story gives it a very different meaning. But I do certainly agree with what you're saying about the overall trend in media.

Shan

That's a good point, Ginny. It's a fair one to bring up. I do think, though, if the show is willing to go to that heat level, why are they not willing to go there with the main couple?

NiNi

And we do know that they are having a hot time, because at the end when they make back up Soga’s like, “Look, we know we gotta fuck, okay? So let's just get this relationship shit wrapped up before we do.” And I thought that was delightful.

Ginny

So good!

Shan

It was a very funny line, but it also kinda came out of nowhere, ‘cause we hadn't seen any sexual relationship for them. [laughs]

Ginny

We saw some.

Ben

I get where Shan’s coming from, like, they confirmed that the guys are having sex and they deliver some of the prelude and the aftermath. But it stands out with what they showed with Mizuki. I think minus the Mizuki stuff, we probably don't feel that way.

NiNi

In general, I agree with Shan, yes, but I do agree with Ginny as well that this is really Soga’s imagination. Like really pushing up his fears and anxieties and all that stuff.

Ben

I at least got to make a joke about the need for a robust public transport system [Shan and Ginny laugh], because it's what allows them to be compromised in the end of this. I’m like, “You see that? Robust, fast, frequent high speed rail is the only reason that these gays made it.”

NiNi

Public transport is for the gays, that's the new slogan.

So, ratings, how are we rating this one? Ginny, how about you? What do you think?

Ginny

I gave this one also an 8.5 from the opposite direction of Perfect Propose. I think execution wise it deserves a bit lower, but I enjoyed it so much that I bumped us up to 8.5.

Ben

Shandler?

Shan

I gave it a 7.5 because the execution issues really really bothered me. I think ultimately I really wanted to love it and I was disappointed that I didn't.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

I liked all the Osaka stuff. I liked how homey they made Osaka feel. I liked the female coworker who, having been pushed back, decided to become a full on supporter and get these two guys together. I gave it an 8. I had a good time with it. I think it was well done. I could have done without most of the Mizuki arc, but, I enjoyed it.

Ben

I did like Kanda a lot too, and his friend Kanada [Kaname]? Oh man, I really like the friend support group, but this show didn't come together fully for me. I struggle to really talk about it and give a clear recommendation for it, so it's a 7.5 for me.

Which averages out to a 7.89ish. We'll give it an 8. I think that's fair.

NiNi

I think it's fine for it to get an 8 from The Conversation.

Ben

We liked it. Even though it was not exactly what I think any of us was wanting.

01:04:44 - I Want To See Only You

NiNi

Next up, we're gonna talk the latest entry, actually: I Want to See Only You.

Ben, what is I Want to See Only You about?

Ben

It is about how we all really, really loved Kura Yuki in [laughs] His: I Didn't Mean to Fall in Love, and we needed another show with him.

Shan

Oh, man, you're struggling. You can't even deliver the joke, sir, [laughs] ‘cause it's so ridiculous.

[Ben laughs]

Ben’s just trying to score a point off me right now, but it's not working. [laughs]

Ben

Kimi no Koto Dake Mite Itai, aka I Want to See Only You, is a four episode Japanese BL, partially funded by Hulu—that was kind of interesting—in which two boys in high school go through a friends-to-lovers arc. One of them has been nursing a crush for a long time on his friend, and confesses to his friend, and they deal with the complications that ensue from that in a way that I thought was really gentle and wholesome. This was a very short story, but I enjoyed it a lot.

Because it's not that complicated! They've been childhood friends. One of them reveals that he has stronger feelings than just friendship, and the other guy just begins to process that, and we get this really interesting dynamic where they're figuring out what the changes to their relationship are going to be. There's not any real complicating drama here. It's really just about these guys sorting their shit out.

Shan

Yeah, I mean, this show is just uncomplicated. It is heartwarming. It is cute as fuck. It is two nice boys being kind to each other while they navigate a change in their relationship. It's really as simple as that. Sakura confesses to Yuma. Yuma processes the confession. They have a lovely kiss around the fire pit. It's so straightforward and I loved it. It was just nice to watch something that is gentle and kind and lovely, and that's what it is.

I really like this show. I think it's a great serotonin hit—a quick one. And definitely recommend folks watch it.

Ben

Ginny and Nini, did you have time to watch this show?

Ginny

I did not even know it existed until I saw it on the show notes and I was like, “What's that? Oh, well, I'm already doing another show as my homework.”

NiNi

I watched it. It was very short, very sweet. I came away just with the feeling of having really enjoyed watching something, like being wrapped in a nice warm blanket. Watching these two soft boys have a soft time and then all the kooky characters around them. This is one of the things about this kind of Japanese drama that I enjoy, which is all the kooky side characters.

So you've got the two teachers, you've got the girl who has the crush on—I can't remember which boy she has a crush on—and then the boy who has the crush on her. It's so fun. It's so delightful. The teachers are the second best part of the show. I love the teachers so much.

It's just fun. It's sweet. It doesn't require a lot of you. It's very wholesome. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Ben

I was being really goofy at the beginning of this, but I like Kura Yuki a lot and I'm really glad we got to see him in BL again. I thought he was really good in the His prequel, and I really enjoy getting to see him again.

NiNi

He has really sad eyes, which I actually really enjoyed.

Shan

Yeah, he has a really emotive face, I think. I'm excited to see him keep doing more shows.

Ben

There's really not that much more to say. This is a really quick, really gentle show. If you need a really good mood boost, I recommend it.

Ratings! Shan?

Shan

I gave this a 9. It is straightforward. It is sweet. It's an easy watch. Highly recommended.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

I also give it a 9. It's incredibly straightforward and cute. I enjoyed it. I like that they couldn't quite figure out how to shift their relationship from friends to boyfriends. They were dating and they're like, “Should we be doing, like, other stuff?” But they were just doing the same stuff that they had always done. I found that delightful.

Ben

I gave it a 9.5 for the terrible pasta they made. [Shan and NiNi laugh]

Shan

We forgot to talk about the pasta!

NiNi

The pasta was so bad.

Shan

[still laughing] Those boys really went outside and picked some tomatoes and just tossed them fully, without any chopping, into a pan and stirred them around a lil bit and put them on top of some fucking limp noodles and called that spaghetti.

Ben

Zero notes. [laughs]

NiNi

The pasta was still semi-crunchy. It was delightful. It was so high school. It was the most high school thing I've ever seen.

Shan

[still laughing] Raw tomatoes and, like, unseasoned noodles? Amazing.

Ben

I really loved it. For your context Ginny, this is when the boys are trying to figure out the shift in their relationship and they make a list of things they wanna do together. Making pasta with the tomatoes they were growing in the school garden was one of those things. And I thought that was a really lovely idea and super romantic. And then because they're a bunch of high school boys who barely know how to cook, they fucked it up badly. But they had a good time together. It was great.

Shan

It was so good.

Ginny

Incredible.

NiNi

Seriously, Ginny, it's a short watch. It's an easy watch. If you're ever in the mood for something to just lift your mood, I suggest watching it.

Ben

So it gets a 9 from The Conversation. It's worth your time. Please go watch it.

01:10:55 - I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama

NiNi

On to the main event, which Ben has literally been waiting to talk about since we recorded the winter series. We're finally going to talk about I Became the Main Role [of] a BL Drama. Ben, you've been basically building up to this moment. Go right ahead.

Ben

I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama is about how these two boys will drown the audience in the BL goodness. [Shan laughs]

NiNi

Oh God.

Ben

It is a BL about making a BL, which is a lot of fun. No shade against Thailand in this, but when they do self-critical BL it's not always the most fun experience because there's a lot of real grievances the people making it need to air—and I completely respect that. But it also can be kind of a downer. When Japan makes fun of BL, they end up seeming to have more fun poking at the nature of the genre and delivering on the comedic beats without it just feeling like a bitch session.

So, in this particular show, we have Aoyanagi Hajime, who is a former child actor who was struggling a bit with his career and trying to figure out how to move forward, and he gets an opportunity to be one of the leads in a BL production against a up-and-coming idol, Akafuji Yuichiro. They are working on a workplace BL and we're mostly on the set of them filming this show. We don't get to see the show itself. I really wish we would get to see the show they made, it looks great.

They're starting to work on the show, and the two guys do not seem to have much chemistry. The reason we learn is because Yuichiro is actually an Aoyanagi Hajime stan, who is internally freaking out the whole time because he's this close to his idol. And they suggest the two guys live together to build up their chemistry. Their relationship gets complicated as they start to develop something between each other, and this complicates their relationship on set as well. But we mostly spend that time unpacking Aoyanagi’s confidence issues.

This was my favorite show. Before I just start gushing about how beautiful I find Akutsu Nichika, Ginny, thoughts on the show?

Ginny

I love this show so much. Just hearing you talk about it, I was feeling little bubbles of delight remembering all of the different scenes and moments and setups. It was just exquisite. It was so fun and so funny. Very comic, but also felt true to these people as people. Love seeing the cheeky BL commentary. Love seeing Abe Alan play this cool, up-and-coming popular idol, who is just smitten with this kind of no-name, famous-for-one-ad guy and just is flailing around, having to try to act BL.

One of the best moments any BL drama will ever give us is him asking Hajime to record that one kinda bitchy line he says for fap material. [Ben and Shan laugh] God, that's the funniest thing that's ever happened to me personally.

Ben

We will not do that scene justice describing it because it's not just about the dialogue of the scenario. It is staged really well. The blocking is a huge part of the joke in that one, because of what other people know or don't know in the background. It's really a great sequence of the show.

NiNi

I loved all of the blocking in that show, all of the stage direction, all the stuff that's happening in the background of all the scenes when they're on set is hilarious. Japanese shows will always reward you for paying attention to what's happening in the background of a scene. And this show, in particular, the background of every scene, is just phenomenal. It is delightful.

Ben

We cruised into the new year watching this show.

Shan

It was both the last show of 2023 and the first show of 2024 for us.

Ben

This show ended, I was like, “We've already decided the winner [laughs] for ‘24. Everybody, pack it up.”

Shan

I love this show. It's a great example of a super high velocity comedy where it's just joke, joke, joke, joke, joke coming at you from all sides in every moment of the show, not just through the dialogue, but through the scenery, through the blocking, through the things that other characters are doing just out of the frame. This thing is just packed, packed, packed with jokes, and so every time you watch it, you will see new stuff that you missed last time. There are so many gags in this, it's just so well done. The command you have to have to deliver comedy in that way with this extremely zippy pacing, in that super-packed content to shove it all into this three hour package. It's just so impressive. It's the kind of precision that most productions can only aspire to.

There was such good visual jokes in this. The reveal that Akafuji had been wearing a fan T-shirt [laughs] underneath his clothes in scenes. There was a fantastic scene with a leg kabedon.

Ben

Hold on, this is fun. Let's go around the group with a gag that we remember until we run out. Shan gave two. NiNi?

NiNi

I mean, I feel like the leg kabedon was a moment, because when I finally watched the show, I literally said, “Did he just do a kabedon with his leg?” and I was instructed [Ginny and Shan laugh] in the ways of Japanese media in that moment.

Shan

Sure did!

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

Him running after Hajime carrying his Hajime standee.

Ben

After he had previously used it as a shield. [laughs]

Ginny

Yeah.

Ben

One of the gags I enjoyed was all Aoyangi mentioning he was called a bad kisser by his ex, and Akafuji just checks out for that moment, like he's not even listening to the rest of the conversation. He just keeps repeating “moto kono,” referring to the ex-girlfriend over and over again because he's spiraling over it. I enjoyed that one a lot.

[all laugh]

NiNi

Speaking of spiraling! Him fighting with the showerhead.

Shan

[Ginny and NiNi laugh] Oh my God! The showerhead! I still don’t understand what he was doing in that scene, but it was so funny.

Ben

It represents his sexual desire almost being out of control.

Shan

Oh, I got that part. [laughs] I just don't understand what the character was doing.

[Ginny laughs]

Ben

Struggling.

NiNi

When he nearly kissed Aoyanagi, then he went outside and basically hung over the balcony railing [laughs]. Just had a meltdown just from being close enough to almost kiss him.

Ben

The spinning scene on the steps where I was like, “He's gonna kill that boy.” [Ginny laughs]

Shan

Yes! When they were like, twirling each other around on a concrete stairway. [Ben laughs]

There were so many good supporting characters in this, too. I really liked the initial pitch scene with the producers who are describing the vision for the show.

Ben

That was fucking fantastic.

NiNi

Oh my God!

Shan

The level of intensity that they were bringing to their description of this super fucking basic office BL. [laughs]

Ben

Our follow[ers] did not understand the way I lost my shit over this show after the first episode. From the “I will drown the audience in the BL goodness” scene, I was like, “This is it, y'all. This is the show.”

Shan

This is the one.

Ben

“Everyone else can go. I'm done. I found what I needed.”

NiNi

So funny, and literally every time she was on screen, whether it was foreground or background, she was killin’ it. I loved her.

Shan

Every performer in this show was so dialed in at all times, whether they were the focus of a scene or not, they were always doing something important and funny in the background. There was also, of course, the great runner with the managers—

Ginny

The managers!

Shan

—who were carrying on a secret romance.

Ben

We saw them interacting like, “Are they exes? Are they together? What's goin’ on?”

Shan

It was clear somethin’ was going on there from the start.

Ben

They know each other, that's for sure.

Ginny

Mmhmm.

NiNi

They definitely know each other.

Ginny

They know each other.

Shan

They know each other. I was very surprised by the spicy reveal we got [laughs] about their relationship.

NiNi

It was kind of spicy, wasn't it? There was choking involved.

Shan

And then also Ryoga, who was brought in to be a co-star in the show. He was, like, a very well known actor/influencer, I think?

Ben

He was a member of a boy band and they were bringing him in for additional crossover appeal. ‘Cause his strong point was his arrogance. [Ginny and Ben laugh] He walks in the room and they're like throwing fucking feathers for him. And then he starts helping them pick it up. “Thanks for throwing the feathers, guys.” [all laugh]

Shan

This drama! Three episodes, it had a small cast, but it did so much with what it had.

Ben

We were only with this show for two hours, but boy was that a great time.

NiNi

It was so much fun. The producer, the look on her face in the background when the two of them were flirting on set and she caught them? [Shan laughs] Her face was slowly lighting up. [laughs]

Ben

She's like—

Shan

So happy.

Ben

—”Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know.” [all laugh]

I love the manager glaring at his own fucking ward. He's like, “Can you read that line again for me?” and he glares at him. [Ben and Ginny laugh]

Shan

Oh man.

Ben

In terms of the BL commentary, that was fun. There's the whole ramp up of you get selected for a role, you don't really know your costar, there's the reading of the material.

One of the things I really enjoyed with this is that they delved into Aoyanagi really struggling with the fact that he was unable to build rapport with his co-star right away. I like actors getting to play actors and stuff. When Aoyanagi was acting as his character, he was actually really good and was really dialed in. It was really cool how quickly he could go in and out of character. I really liked them showing that he's actually good, but he's in his own head about it because he's really sensitive to commentary from fans, and they reinforce how fan behavior has really potentially negative impacts on actors and entertainers with Kuromiya. He gets cornered by a really aggressive fan, and has to be saved by Aoyanagi in that moment.

I actually liked the moment with Tendo, the female supporting character on their cast, when Aoyanagi’s trying to talk to her about what's going on with Akafuji and he's speaking about it hypothetically, and she's like, “If your co-star is trying to make out with you off set, that's not good.”

Shan

Mmhmm.

Ben

“That's extremely bad.” And he's like, “Wait, but this is a BL story, we're gonna just ride it out for this.” But she's like, “Mmm, no.”

Shan

Aside from how very fucking funny this is, it had some really good messages. The most important thing this show did for me was make it super clear that, in order for the two of them to have a real relationship and have a romance, Akafuji had to let go of being Aoyanagi’s fan. You can't idolize and worship a person if you want a relationship with them. You have to process them as a human being, a full human being, and see them fully for who they are, and not keep them on this fannish pedestal. I really like that the show was clear about that. Being a fan, being a stan of somebody, is not the same thing as loving them.

Ben

It was really surprising as well that the show allowed there to be the commentary about the network, late in production, interfering—getting cold feet about something. The guys had a lot of consternation about whether or not they'd be able to deliver a proper kiss for the intimacy, and then the powers that be pulled the kiss, and you get the sense immediately from the producers that that wasn't their choice, that people with money above them made that decision and they had to just deliver the party line and just accept it.

Shan

That probably brings us to our one real criticism of this show, yeah?

Ben

The reason why the show did not get a 10. [laughs]

Shan

Damn it, we wanted it to get a 10!

Ben

I get what they were going for. They reserved that moment for them. But I'm looking at you TV Asahi.

Shan

Because, they did not deliver a kiss.

Ben

They didn't.

Shan

They did not deliver a kiss in this show. [laughs]

Ben

It’s the only knock.

Shan

They teased a kiss continuously. They showed them about to kiss multiple times before cutting the camera away.

Ben

We got sad kissing in episode 2.

Shan

They implied that they might have been kissing as practice off camera, that we didn't see. And then they ended the show—similarly to Cherry Magic—with the camera zooming in on them, about to kiss, and then a cut to black. It was unsatisfying all around.

It's the one real ding on the show. The first time they did the fake out, we were like, “Oh no, show. Please don't do this. We want to love you unreservedly. Please just deliver the kiss.”

Ben

That's the real sadness of our two grab bags. We did not get a NiNi “I love this unreservedly” and we talked about like 10 shows. [Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi

Everything's got a little ding to it right now, but we'll get that again, I believe.

Ben

[laughs] But genuinely I love this. I really like that for the little time we spent with them, all the characters felt really human to me in a way that was really accessible. And even though they were mostly broad strokes in all of these characters, I got a lot out of it. It was really, truly one of my favorite BL experiences I've had in a long time.

NiNi

I'm gonna give it a 9.75.

Ben

Oh, my God, here she goes.

Shan

[laughs] She’s cheating! That’s just cheating—

Ginny

Cheating!

Shan

—so you can be the most generous.

NiNi

It's not cheating. It is producer privilege. Get it right. [Ginny and Shan laugh]

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it a 9.5. Would have been a 10 if they'd given us the kiss, but a truly delightful and worthwhile show.

Shan

Same. 9.5 for same reason.

Ben

I gave it a 9.5 for the same thing. It's a 9.5 from The Conversation.

Shan

But let the record state that NiNi is the most generous. [laughs]

Ben

Truly, we love this. This is one of our favorites. Go watch it right now.

Ginny

I have to rewatch it ‘cause I don't even remember my favorite gags.

Ben

Exactly. You gotta go watch again and get your gags back.

01:26:16 - Outro

NiNi

And with that, we have come to the end of our Japanese Grab Bag. So, what are we thinking about Japanese BL having just run down six of them in a row? Ginny, you go first.

Ginny

Last time I answered this question I was kind of feeling like Japanese BL can do no wrong, and now I feel like, well it can, and has. There have been several less than perfect shows. Still feeling very positive overall. Loving so far—knock wood—some of what's currently airing.

The beautiful density of storytelling that Japanese BL tends to deliver in such a short time, it almost never feels hollow or incomplete. It feels very rich and detailed, and I continue to love and appreciate that.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I am just living right now. What a time to be alive. Japanese BL coming at us, all the time, consistently. It didn't used to be like this. We used to go long stretches with nothing coming out from Japan. No clue what was gonna come next. And now it’s like, we've got these consistently airing shows, we've got shows that are showing up as a surprise alongside that. I think at one point we had six different Japanese QLs airing simultaneously. That's just an unheard of bounty of Japanese QL content, and I am so happy about it. I hope it continues.

With volume, of course, comes some shows that are not gonna hit as well as the cream of the crop, but I still love the experience of watching all of them, I love getting to dig into this much Japanese content. I'm just so happy and I hope it continues.

Ben

I can't believe we got to talk about nine Japanese projects in a single season of this show. That's ridiculous.

Shan

Wow, right?

Ben

I am having a great time, and I'm actually glad some of these shows were flops or duds. As much as I really like Japanese BL, I'm glad that there was a show that I got to genuinely hate in this run [laughs] so that NiNi could see that I'm capable of hating a Japanese project with my whole heart.

NiNi

I did actually need to see that. That is true.

Ben

I'm havin’ a great time. It's really refreshing that so many different networks were involved. We had shows from about five or six different networks, and even if it feels like we're getting a slowdown in spring, I am very glad that we have more projects on the way. There's at least two more Japanese projects on the horizon, so. I'm in a really good place.

NiNi

There's some stuff in there, I think, that we're going to talk about in the Lagniappe about where things seem to be going next season, but for now, that's going to be it from us.

We out. Say bye to the people, everybody, this time in actual chorus: 1, 2, 3.

Ben

Peace.

Shan

Bye.

Ginny

Bye!

NiNi

Oh my God. Y'all are terrible at this.

[Ginny and Shan laugh]

#ben and nini's conversations #lgbtq #podcast #the conversation #on art #bl series #spring series #japanese bl #sahara sensei to toki kun #sukiyanen kedo do yaro ka #although i love you and you #perfect propose #i became the main role of a bl drama #bl drama no shuen ni narimashita: crank up hen #one room angel #i want to see only you #kimi no koto dake mite itai #Spotify

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