#ace yelena belova discourse

[starkillersbae]

Ahead of the Thunderbolt* release I'm going to need the entire fucking fandom to take a crash course in what being asexual is and isnt. Cause y'all act like a character being ace means anyone writing ship content with them is some how putting their filthy hands all over your precious virgin and defiling them. Get off your high horse and let people write what they want.

Asexual people can be in relationships, they can even have sex and it doesn't change the fact they are asexual.

-Sincerely an asexual in a relationship.

[lightros]

so now that gwenpool is canonically aro-spec and ace-spec are people going to recognize marvel characters other than yelena as being aspec? please?

[lightros]

I WANT Yelena to be aroace. ESPECIALLY in the MCU, I really do. BUT I am begging people to stop taking those panels out of context. Especially if they say “mcu writers read a comic”

Here is the page containing that panel, and the beginning of the immediate next page. If you doubt me for any reason. It’s issue 2 of Black Widow: Pale Little Spider.

These panels don’t mean she definitely isn’t aro or ace or anything. Hell, you can argue that it does support the ace side. But it’s literally in the middle of her love (for a man) being explicitly mentioned two times.

Just a reminder:

[angieblogging]

here are some harmful aro stereotypes 💚🤍🩶🖤

there are probably so many more stereotypes, but those are the ones that i see more often! also i already posted same post about bisexuality, so check it out —> here.

aros are heartless — most people think that, because they assume aromantics do not love, they love. they can love their family, their friends, their pet or even themselves (this one is specifically for my afamilial & aplatonic folks). there is so much more complexity to love than romantic love and anyone who puts romantic love above all else is lame. like im sorry, but romantic love isn’t somehow better from self-love or love to your friends or family.

aro and ace are the same — this is also about asexuality, but aro ≠ ace. i see some people use the term asexual to describe both the aro & ace experience and to me it makes no sense since they’re completely different things. aro & ace can co-exist and one person can be on both spectrums, but that doesn’t mean all people are the same, not all aros are ace, not all aces are aro. so what is aro & ace? both are a spectrum. if you are aromantic you do not feel romantic attraction OR feel it under certain circumstances only (ex. when you know someone well, when someone likes you you like them back or until someone likes you back you like them). if you’re asexual that means you do not feel sexual attraction OR only feel it under certain circumstances.

aros can’t date — aros can in fact date, some people on the arospec experience attraction (rarely or under certain circumstances) so it makes sense they can date. there are also aros that do not experience romantic attraction, some date even though they do not experience the same feeling. they can like the person, care for them deeply and affectionately, but it is simply not romantic love, but they can chose to date the person. not all aros are loveless or romance repulsed.

i can ship xyz, aros can date — this is targeted tbh, i keep seeing people bring this up in Yelena Belova discourse about her aromanticism, while it is true aros can date, some chose not to, some are simply not interested in it and if a character in canon is showing no interest in romance or is repulsed by it, they don’t need to be fixed, they don’t need to be put in a relationship, they can just exist in peace. i especially dislike allos shipping aro/ace characters because they just see them as allo at that point, like im sorry, but they don’t give a shit about aros if they can’t listen to them explaining why you shouldn’t ship a specific aro character.

aros aren’t valid — bs. just bs. they are valid, whether you’re a man, a woman, a gender outside of the binary, whether you’re asexual as well or not, whether you want to date or not, you are valid as long as the definition applies to you!!! honestly here’s how i can explain being aro: if you are straight you are only attracted to opposite gender, so you don’t like same-sex, so just like you don’t like same-sex, aro’s don’t like same-sex & opposite gender.

[scarfacemarston]

I saw your post about asking for headcanon requests, and I was wondering if I could get some Headcanons about Bucky with an Ace and Nonbinary partner? SFW please, Thank you!

Bucky x Gender Neutral Ace Reader hc’s

Sam introduced the two of you, and you struck up a slow friendship. He wasn’t the easiest man to get to know, but you knew there was more to him than he let on. Soon, that trust and friendship turned into something more, and now, you were quite pleased to say that James Buchannan Barnes was your partner.

Read Reader coming out as non binary and Ace to Bucky here.

Bucky constantly loses his clothing and has no idea why—until he finds you wearing his shirts or hoodies. They were comfortable, and it was comforting that they smelled like him—but you also liked how they made you look gender-neutral. 

Bucky would sometimes tell stories of the 1940s underground LGBT scene. He wasn't seriously active, but he did visit some gay bars, and he did have some male lovers. He spoke about how dangerous it was, but how brave he found all LGBT+ back then, which encouraged him to love more how he wanted.

You took Bucky to his first pride event, where he watched the parades and wore shirts and pins. You have an ace and gender-neutral badge and a pansexual one for Bucky. While he enjoyed the parade, he found the whole thing overwhelming. However, he was incredibly pleased to see all the joy and celebration that people like the two of you could have.  

You help Bucky acclimate to the modern day by exploring what New York offers, including cute outings like eating at a cat cafe or reliving some of his good memories by taking you to Coney Island.

You and Bucky shared a bed. It was nice to be able to enjoy each other's company without worrying if your partner wanted sex like past ones. However, the nightmares bothered Bucky, but they lessened around you. Showering together was also a relaxing and carefree affair. 

Bucky was never a huge cook but knew how to care for himself. It turned out that he discovered an interest in cooking while hiding in Romania. He managed to rope you into cooking as well, and soon, you were making things from comfort food to a few Romanian foods and, occasionally, a recipe or two he knew from the 40s that his ma made him.

Eventually, you were introduced to Yelena Belova, one of his teammates from the Thunderbolts. The idea of meeting her filled you with anxiety, but Bucky assured you that she was a dork, friendly, and ace to boot. Thanks to Bucky, the two of you also became friends and did everything from attending Pride events and talking about ace discourse to playing tourist together. 

Lots of cuddling. Bucky was a tactile child and young adult. Physical touch is his love language, both giving and receiving. However, after his time as the winter soldier, he was afraid to touch anyone and strongly disliked anyone touching him. However, in time, you helped Bucky slowly acclimate to positive touches again. From then on, he was always holding hands with you or wanting to cuddle.

Bucky loves documentaries. He loves seeing everything that has happened since the 40s, whether it's advances in science and tech—his favorite—nature documentaries or war documentaries. However, he sometimes got frustrated with war documentaries loudly critiquing or correcting mistakes in WWII or Cold War-era documentaries. 

You also enjoyed introducing him to your favorite music. Bucky was initially unsure about sharing music from his era with you as he was worried you'd make fun of it, but instead, you enjoyed listening to Peggy Lee or Judy Garland or, on other days, more vibrant swing pieces or love ballads. Bucky was both relieved and overjoyed that he could share something so comforting with you.

[romanoffsbish]

I will NOT be posting the nonsense left in my inbox tagging/calling others out. To take this a step further I’m actually not posting any hate ever again. I don’t need to defend myself (or others) to miserable strangers on this app.

I do however want to respond to the topic at hand because by default you are calling me ace-phobic as well and that’s a falsehood.

If you have a problem with how we write a fictional character (that isn’t actually canon as anything because MCU and Marvel Comics are not tied together by a blood vessel) then you can easily leave our blogs behind. You’re not shackled to any fic writers page. Yelena Belova is comically known as an enemy of Natasha, not her sister. Alexei was her husband. Natasha once ate Peter Parker. Thanos tore Tony in half.

The point I’m making is comic /=/ movie canon.

——

To also let you know, there’s huge talk that Yelena & Bucky are romantically involved in their newest project. People also saw the chemistry between Flo/Hailee and shipped Yelena with Kate before the Ace discourse had started (and continued to b/c it is their right).

There’s nothing but love for those who fall under the Ace umbrella here on my blog, and I say it that way because it is a spectrum, not a one size fits all identity. Start by understanding that ace doesn’t mean celibate. For you, and others it might, but for many it doesn’t. So the no smut does not even add to your argument. I’m aware that Yelena being hinted as ace might have excited you, given you a sense of visibility you’ve never seen in the mainstream (and you all do deserve such types of representation) but turning a Tumblr fandom toxic because they don’t see her the same isn’t fair. Especially because there’s no “proof” of her identity, “Probably more likely to identify as asexual,” is not a canon statement. If you’re here because a single Black Widow writer made an assumption based on a solo project they were involved in then you’re also not going to hit with anything credible because these writers do not talk to the heads when they make comments. They also don’t dictate a character’s future arc.

For further discourse I will defer you to this reddit link written by an individual who seems to identify somewhere within the spectrum.

I myself have written Yelena in all facets. I have written romantic, 1 smut, and I’m in the process of putting together a requested platonic one. It is not a malicious way to erase her potential aro/ace identity. It’s just to see her how I do.

Fanfic has always been about taking characters and running with your desires. Natasha has been turned into a vampire, witch, werewolf, lawyer, CEO, princess, stripper, Lesbian/Bi and the list goes on because interpretations vary wildly. Nothing we write is canon to the world, it is only to the writer / and interested readers.

[big-urchin-energy]

this is. very explicitly Not what i'm talking about here. these are very popular aspec headcanons. elsa and moana are characters from kids' movies without canonical love interests, aziraphale and crowley are word-of-god "asexual" beings, yelena belova is canonically aroace in the comics, which i know because there is discourse about shipping her, not because she's a particularly interesting character in the mcu, same with aziraphale and crowley. this post is about characters who DO have sex and date in their original media. why not make kristoff from frozen aro? why not make newt and anathema aroace? why not make natasha aroace, or idk, matt murdock or someone.

if these are headcanons you like, then great, but i am begging you to get weirder with it, come up with your own. people keep yelling about jessica rabbit, and that was a great start and a step in the right direction when it was first suggested in 2015, but that was 9 full years ago, i think we can do better! (i'd also argue a lot of people on here are probably only familiar with her because she's a popular ace hc.) i'm saying pick ANY character, make them aro or ace, and see what happens, find your own textual clues

we lost our way when we started having discourse justifying shipping aroace characters with "ace people can still have sex/aros can still date", instead of using it as evidence to hc characters who aren't canonically aspec and who date and have sex, as aro/ace.

scraping the bottom of the barrel for characters who don't express interest in dating? no, i'm coming for your ladies' men and your sluts, your suave and sexy sweet talkers, your femme fatales and your serial monogamists.

aroaces you must liberate yourselves, break free of the shackles of that one canon aroace, you don't need them. sick of people shipping your fave canon aroace? their fave is aroace now. want more sex/romance favourable aroace rep? this works for that too! there are literally no downsides

[novoaa1writes]

topic: yelena belova

hey, kids

just received a comment on one of my works informing me that yelena belova is canonically asexual in the comics. (and many people say that she’s also hinted at being aromantic as well, though i don’t think that’s been confirmed, from what i understand.) [source] [source] [source]

with what little i knew about her character, i’d been writing her as someone who fit beneath the rather broad umbrella-term of ‘queer.’ (i never really had any specific headcanons for her with regards to sexuality and gender.)

i started delving into all the discourse surrounding this, and turns out, there’s been a fair amount. the two main posts i came across that seemed to embody both sides of the discussion fairly well are this one and this one. and, given that both ops have identified themselves to be asexual, aromantic, or both, i’m definitely finding myself at a bit of a loss here.

(other posts to consider: one, two, three, four, five, and potentially more to be added as i continue to look into this.)

obviously, i am neither asexual nor aromantic, and because of that, i know very well that i am in no position to cast my vote to one side or another. (not that it’s ever quite so cut-and-dry when it comes to these sorts of things, or that i will be doing anything in the way of ‘casting a vote’ to begin with, but—i digress.) 

all i know is that there’s a fair deal of mounting contention over this, and that a solid 90% of the time, contention arises because people feel wronged, or hurt, or otherwise disrespected.

i really don’t ever want to publish content that makes people feel like that, ever.

more specifically, i don’t ever want to use the platform i’ve been given as a means of ace/aro erasure, even unintentionally.

so, starting now, i’m putting a halt to all works i’d had planned or otherwise imagined for yelena which depict her in a non-platonic interpersonal dynamic. i’m also considering radically revising all already-published works i’ve created which fit that description, if not deleting them entirely.

still—and please know that this is purely from a place of curiosity and a genuine desire to learn more about these issues—it’d be really helpful to hear from any aro/ace individuals in the fandom regarding this. direct message me, drop an ask in my inbox (anonymous or otherwise), reply to this post... i’d just really like to know more about how ace/aro individuals are receiving this, and any other part of the whole debate on which you want to comment, or shed some light. 

(note: although i want nothing more than to allow people a place to discuss this freely, i’m going to ask that you keep things civil and be respectful of others. if you can’t manage that, you will be blocked.)

thanks in advance, you guys <3

— —

also! if i’ve hyperlinked your content in this post and you’d like for me to remove it—just drop a reply, or an ask, or message me directly to let me know. i’ll remove it asap at your request

[aroconfusion]

okay but all i’m saying is if a character said they swing both ways, everyone would say that’s canonically bi but when a character said they are nothing (in the context of sexualities), being aroace is only a head canon 🤔

[werehamburglar]

it's a toss-up, i think, about how i feel about aro/ace (or even just aspec in general) characters presented in media. on the one hand, it's great to have some representation. on the other, such visibility is like unlocking the door so that all the weirdo aphobes can get in and start up the outright aphobia and more "subtle" erasure. i wish the latter would stop.

[indigo-brainspark]

I'm going to say what I said during the Yelena Belova/Kate Bishop discourse. Except this time I'm backed up even more by canon:

Try looking into the aroace experience. Find out about queerplatonic relationships. Learn about the different aro and ace identities across the spectrum. This is an opportunity to learn about a whole different community and to gain a better understanding of how some people manage and understand relationships.

We're all in the same fight. Let's not hobble each other.

I don't think words can describe how important Gwen Poole coming out as aro is for the aromantic community. We can fight all day long about what was hinted and implied and how we should've seen this coming but at the end of the day,,, she's the first person to definitively say she's aromantic in ANY superhero comic (according to Wikipedia). And that means something.

And the way people are willing to brush that aside and insist that another writer will change that continue assigning allo identities to her also means something.

Have your headcanons, there's nothing I can do to stop anyone, but erasure is erasure.

[olderthannetfic]

I don’t follow marvel at all but through tumblr i heard about yelena belova apparently being canonically aroace? As an aroace person this literally my first time *ever* seeing mainstream representation (I know there are a couple of ace characters and also some books here and there but I don’t know of any mainstream ace people that are also aro).

But scrolling through the tag and reading about her in hopes for content is honestly very frustrating because of all the aggressive discourse between shippers (mostly lesbians I guess?) and aro/ace people - especially since we’re all so starved of representation and can get emotionally invested?

I wondered if you’d be able to give some rational advice since I know you’re very pro shipping and people doing whatever they want with media/characters, which I agree with, but it’s still sad to see so much arguing about this … Should I just block the tag to not see convos/shipping stuff I don’t want to see? I do want to see content though and don’t know how to separate that within the tags :/

--

There may not be a good way to separate it in the tags. I think you'll need to find a few specific blogs to follow and just block the shit out of anyone who annoys you in the tags.

I remember reading an interview with Antonio Fargas years ago. He played Huggy Bear on Starsky & Hutch. He was talking about diversity and perceptions of scarcity, and he commented that some people were blaming women or nonblack minorities for some perceived reduction in opportunity, but it was really just that The Token Minority used to be a black guy, and now it was being shared among various types of actor. Those other people weren't the competition, not really.

The problem here is that lesbians are desperate for representation. They have vastly, vastly more than aroace people, but they still have paltry scraps overall. So if we're playing misery poker, you win, but it's kind of pointless to talk about who has it worse when everyone has it unacceptably bad. And that's why the fighting is so bad in this kind of context.

Anyway, block, block, block. It's the only way.

[purpleyin]

"chemfrost-domestic" or "aro ace yelena" for the WIP list?

aro ace yelena - I've had this on my list of moodboards to do since I saw Black Widow and Hawkeye in quick succession and then came across the discourse about Yelena Belova's sexuality when looking up stuff for the fandom. I know that the MCU version of Yelena hasn't had confirmation that's she's ace (and probably also aro) like the comics character but it sucks when ace rep is ignored, so I decided to headcanon her MCU version as both ace and aro too and I wanted to make a little something for that. It's very, very close to being done now, but I have a few fixes to do for it where Canva didn't quite do borders correctly.

chemfrost-domestic - I started this for the simplysnowbarry Spring event using the line “So... is this like a thing now?” With how chemfrost is as a pairing, usually it's all about the heists and other criminal jobs, one upmanship and banter. With this I was trying to do something a little unexpected and wanted to write about them reluctantly being soft with each other, though there's still banter and an element of competition. I got stuck on some technical issues, because I was fixated on getting CSI type stuff correct, but I probably just need to bang this out and not look back since it was only meant to be something short and semi-sweet.

WIP titles tag game

[novoaa1writes]

hi! super super psyched to hear you’ve enjoyed some of the works i’ve written thus far

in regards to your question, i think the answer to that depends on the actual content in question. 

will i be writing any explicit and/or sexually-charged scenes involving yelena as an active participant? no. 

(the already-written ones are currently up-in-the-air in regards to how i’m going to handle them.)

will i be writing her in the context of a romantic relationship? for the time being, i’m leaning towards no. 

will i be open to writing platonic dynamics which include yelena? of course; 100%

i’m aware that asexuality and aromanticism are not fixed categories; rather, they each encompass a vast spectrum of classifications beneath a far broader, and decidedly intangible persuasion. thus, relationships which include asexual and/or aromantic constituent(s) can present in a variety of different ways, implying that there is no truly “wrong” way to write them—sexual or nonsexual.

i don’t really subscribe to that. i’ve known perhaps one openly asexual individual in my entire life (not that we were terribly close), and my knowledge on asexuality / aromanticism is nothing short of woefully inadequate. (a grievous oversight on my part, and one i’m eager to rectify.) 

and sure, i could write whatever i wanted with yelena—intimacy, sex, etc. and, upon being approached with any criticism, cover my own ass with the all-encompassing excuse that “relationships which include asexual and/or aromantic people come in all different forms.” i might even get away with it. 

but the truth is, i don’t know nearly enough about asexuality or aromanticism to begin with, let alone what it means to align oneself within either category... and for that reason, i firmly believe that i have no business writing a canonically asexual (and arguably aromantic) character in a romantic and/or sexual context. 

perhaps this could be something i revisit in the future, provided i spend adequate time doing my due diligence (necessary research, etc.), but for now, with regards to future works depicting yelena in romantic and/or sexual contexts, it’s definitely a hard no. 

thanks for the ask, anon, and i hope this answered your question <3

hey!! huge fan of your ao3. are you still going to write yelenat fics?

[note: rbing to my writing sideblog, where i'll answer this]

[treesramblings]

about tree

28, she/her, pan/ace, american

I am slow to respond to asks, please forgive me! message me on discord (treesramblings#4137) for quick responses!

ao3

my comfort pairing: derek hale/stiles stilinski (teen wolf)

my comfort character: tony stark (marvel)

I do not engage in…

fandom discourse

character hate/bashing

pairing hate/bashing

unsolicited political discussion

proud supporter of “don’t like, don’t read”

current high-focus fandoms

marvel

shadow and bone (netflix)

ffxiv

MARVEL

faq

up to date on all movies (02/18)

tv shows: avengers assemble, earth’s mightiest heroes, iron man: armored adventures

slowly reading comics (current favorites: black widow 2019, black widow 2020, secret empire)

big fan of genderbending (tony = toni, steve = stevie, bucky = jamie)

favorite tropes: hydracap, werewolves, vampires, ABO, avengers as hydra, morally dubious avengers

favorite characters

agatha harkness (mcu variant)

baron helmut zemo (mcu variant)

carol danvers

clint barton

darcy lewis

edwin jarvis

enchantress

erik killmonger (mcu variant)

frigga

gilgamesh (mcu variant)

harley keener

heimdall (mcu variant)

helen cho

james buchanan “bucky” barnes

james “rhodey” rhodes

janet van dyne

kamala khan

kate bishop

loki laufeyson

margaret “peggy” carter

maria rambeau

mj watson (mcu variant)

monica rambeau

m’baku (mcu variant)

natalia alianovna romanova

peter parker

phil coulson

pietro maximoff

sam wilson

sersi (mcu variant)

sharon carter

sif

steve rogers

sylvie laufeydottir

thena (mcu variant)

thor odinson

tony stark

t’challa

valkyrie

wanda maximoff (mcu variant, wandavision era only)

yelena belova (mcu variant)

favorite relationships

clint barton & kate bishop

clint barton/natasha romanov

clint barton/tony stark

gilgamesh/thena

james “bucky” barnes & sam wilson

james “bucky” barnes/darcy lewis

james “bucky” barnes/helmut zemo

james “bucky” barnes/natasha romanov

james “bucky” barnes/steve rogers

james “bucky” barnes/steve rogers/darcy lewis

james “bucky” barnes/steve rogers/tony stark

james “bucky” barnes/steve rogers/tony stark/natasha romanov

james “bucky” barnes/tony stark/natasha romanov

james “rhodey” rhodes/carol danvers

loki/darcy lewis

loki/sylvie laufeydottir

loki/tony stark

natasha romanov & yelena belova

natasha romanov/janet van dyne

peter parker & harley keener

sersi/ikarus

steve rogers & peter parker

steve rogers & tony stark & peter parker

steve rogers/darcy lewis

steve rogers/natasha romanov

steve rogers/tony stark

steve rogers/tony stark/natasha romanov

thor/darcy lewis

thor/janet van dyne

thor/loki

thor/loki/tony stark

thor/tony stark

thor/tony stark/janet van dyne

tony stark & carol danvers

tony stark & darcy lewis

tony stark & harley keener

tony stark & peter parker

tony stark & peter parker & harley keener

tony stark & sharon carter

tony stark/janet van dyne

tony stark/natasha romanov

t’challa/m’baku

wanda maximoff/agatha harkness

wanda maximoff/pietro maximoff

yelena belova & kate bishop

[peachyteabuck]

Lukis omg can we still talk about the whole yelena belova discourse thing I just like hearing your thoughts about it all

so @caroldantops posted this thread that i think def both changed and cemented my views about one of the key questions of the discourse, which is "is yelena actually aro and/or ace?" and makes a lot of posts that rely on her being canonically either/both kinda...sinister? for lack of better words. i'm certainly not saying she can't/shouldn't have that aspect of her sexuality canonized in the future, but it's still laying in a grey zone in the comic universe; and certainly has no part of the cinematic one (meaning her sexuality is never discussed).

to claim that fanfic writers are erasing a sexuality that isn't tied to a character, and to call them aphobes regardless of their politics outside of that fanfic, is insidious and ignores the nuances involved in this. as i said before, that no one has seemed to find a good response to, is "is any fanfic where yelena has no romantic/sexual relationships good representation, regardless of the fic's content and the author's politics?" for example, if a fanfic writer who doesn't think asexual people are real writes a fluff-only fic where yelena and the reader are best friends having a movie night, is that aroace yelena representation? why? why not?

not even to mention, when i think about aseuxal liberation aroace yelena disourse doesn't cross my mind. do asexual and aromantic people deserve proper media representation? sure. but just as i think lesbian media representation is something that is a sustained action meant to comfort rather than liberate, asexual representation likely doesn't free asexual people from compulsory sexuality, medicalization, ostracization, social isolation, etc. it is good! it is certainly nice! i'm not debating that, but representation without liberation is tokenization.

this absolutely isn't saying that no one can headcannon yelena as ace/aro, or any character regardless of canon sexuality. this certainly doesn't mean anyone should be harassing anyone else because of their feelings about yelena belova (or anything else, but like, yelena belova is the most pertinent here).

in short - whether yelena is actually 100% for sure without a doubt aroace matters less to me than asexual liberation, and queer liberation writ large.