#Welsh triads

[gawrkin]

(Source: The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, by Barbara G. Walker)

As extreme as it is for some (including me), do remember Morgan and Merlin are called gods in the Vulgate narrative. That said, they're both called that to highlight their "unchristianess" and "exoticness" to a medieval audience and isn't supposed to be taken seriously - there is no hard evidence of any association with any confirmed deities nor any real historical religious movements surrounding those two (despite the efforts of some scholars).

[queer-ragnelle]

I support women. Join me or get out.

[taliesin-the-bored]

Hi :) Could I have the source for "wherever Arthur walks, plants die"? That's very "Holly King" coded of him

Sure thing! It's from Triad 23 in the Red Book of Hergest. Here's a translation by John Rhŷs and John Gwenogvryn Evans:

Three Red Ravagers of the Island of Britain: Rhun son of Beli, and Lleu Skilful Hand, and Morgant the Wealthy. But there was one who was a Red Ravager greater than all three: Arthur was his name. For a year neither grass nor plants used to spring up where one of the three would walk; but where Arthur went, not for seven years.

Peniarth MS 54 lists "{t}hree red-spotted ones of the Island of Prydain. Arthur; and Run son of Beli; and Morgant Mwynfawr" (W.F. Skene's translation), which probably means the same thing, since both include Arthur, Rhun son of Beli, and someone named Morgant. In Welsh, "Morgant the Wealthy" is Morgant Hael, and I haven't been able to determine whether he and Morgant Myfanwyr are the same person.

Thanks for the ask!

[gingersnaptaff]

Hello, again. It's me, back on my Mabinogion bullshit.

Had a quiet crying sesh in the bath last night thinking about Manawydan cuz of this triad and Rachel Bromwich's analysis of it:

And then, it spiralled into Manawydan being dispossessed of his Kingship because of this:

And then, I ended up yelling about Manawydan:

(Sorry for the typos. I was crying.)

Suffice to say, I am going fuckin INSANE. Manawydan goes through all the shit he goes through - including his dad, Llŷr, being imprisoned by his step-dad, Euroswydd - and then, presumably because the Mabinogion does not give a time frame to events, also has to hear the news that his bestie, Pryderi, has been murdered by Gwydion.

[trinityalps]

[amashelle]

From Rachel Bromwich’s Trioedd Ynys Pryden (4th ed):

As for the second (#4 in Bromwich’s compilation), the word ‘deifnyawc’, usually translated as well-endowed means ‘man of substabce, one who holds or inherits wealth’ so it does go back to the original meaning of endowment, which has the same roots as dowry, and is connected to material wealth not physical proportions.

HIGHLY recomend this book to anyone doing reaearch on the Triads. It is very reasonably priced considering everything that’s in it!

Edit: fixed picture

Here come Welsh Triad titles confusing me like: what does this mean?

Is it freckles? Is it a metaphor I'm missing? I don't know--I haven't found anything about it on my research!

Meanwhile, I guess I'm supposed to take this as it's meant to be taken (for lack of a better term)?

If anybody knows more, I'd be very thankful!

[delphiniumpacificguinevere]

If I can’t pop up more ideas from Guinevere-Guinevak-Guiomar siblings&family scenes from the Vulgate Cycle or any Gwenhwyfar-Gwenhwyfach rivalry scenes from the Welsh Arthurian right now, I’m gonna dive into the Blodeuwedd and Bláthnat side for a while, so I can enjoy some “floral traitor” stories🌸🌼🌹💐🪷🥀🪻🌻🌷🌺😋✌️

[like-butterflies-and-glitter]

the NotThem is one of my favourite tma creatures, and i really like listening to mag77 because they connect them to changelings and also the added bonus of fucked up mother-daughter relationships. i would personally love to listen to rose cooper's recordings on english and welsh folklore

[eynsavalow]

.

[delphiniumpacificguinevere]

Guinevere-centred opinions, so:

What is the biggest addition or divergence from the traditional Arthurian narrative that you make in your head?

[anxiously-awaiting]

i think bedivere needs more ultraviolence

[gawrkin]

Notable Sorcerers of British Mythology (other than Merlin)

King Bladdud, from Historia Regum Britanniae. Father of King Leir and Grandfather of Gonoril, Regan and Cordelia. The earliest known necromancer in Britain.

[...]

Celidoine, King of Scotland and North Wales, son of Nasciens and ancestor of Sir Lancelot and Galahad. Buried in Camelot.

From the Red Book of Hergest Welsh Triads: Math ap Mathonwy, King of Gwynedd, brother of Don, and uncle of his protege, Gwydion, the magician-trickster hero of the Mabinogi. Amongst other things, punished his wayward nephews for raping Goewin by shapeshifting them, tested Arianrhod's virginity with his wand (which she failed), and is co-creator of Blodeuwedd, the flower-bride of Lleu Llaw Gyffes. Uther Pendragon, King Arthur's father, who mentored Menw, one of Arthur's own enchanter-knights. Infamous for using shapeshifting to seduce Igraine, siring Arthur. This triad implies Uther himself was a practicioner of the magical arts and has his own apprentice, with the assistance of Merlin in Historia being Geoffrey of Monmouth's spin. Gwythelyn the Dwarf. Unknown, but his nephew-protege, Coll ap Collfrewy, is one of the mighty swineherds of Britain and the owner of the magical sow, Henwen.

From Iolo Morgannwg's own dubious triads (so take them with a grain of salt): Idris Gawr of Merionydd, of Cadair Idris fame. A huge giant learned in poetry, astronomy and philosophy, who's throne/chair is a mountain said to be able to grant poetic skill or madness. Gwydion fab Don, the trickster figure of the Mabinogi and student of his uncle Math. The Milky Way Galaxy is said to be his fortress. Gwyn ap Nudd, Lord of the Wild Hunt and King of the Fairies of Glastonbury. King Arthur's cousin and huntsman. Doomed by Arthur to fight Gwythyr ap Greidawl for the hand of Creiddylad until the End of the World.

*(Not included are Klingsor and Gansguoter of the German Arthurian Tradition)

It is very notable that many of these Sorcerers are Kings, lordly rulers in their own right.

[queer-ragnelle]

Welsh Triads | More quotes at Arthuriana Daily

[amashelle]

For anyone wondering, the triad is #42 in Rachel Bromwich's comprehensive collection.

There are many variations of the triad. The most common being:

Llwyt, horse of Alser son of Maelgwn and G6ineu Godwfhir, horse of Cai and Chethin Carn6law, horse of Iddon son of Ynyr Gwent

G6ineu or Gwineu Godwfhir means 'Chestnut Long-Neck' (remember google translate is limited to modern Welsh spellings, which the triads tend not to use)

Ceincaled or Kein Caled is the original form of Gringolet <3 (@gringolet)

Short king Gawain 💖

Extra

kay has a horse (whose name translates to long lasting wine on google translate??)

(welsh triad of horses)

[gingersnaptaff]

What's your take on the 3 Gwenhwfars of The Hergest Triads?

Hi anon! Now, do you mean as to whether they're like three aspects of the same woman or whether they're separate? Or just... that they are all women who are married to Arthur?

I mean, I do find it funny he married three women who bore the same name. Like that's so fuckin hilarious to me. Did he have it legally mandated that his wives all had to have the same name so he didn't forget it? I won't lie I do find it fascinating that two of the Gwenhwyfar's have some kind of supernatural element to them! Gwenhwyfar the second was Gwythyr app Greidawl who - if you've read Culhwch ac Olwen - gets mentioned as Gwyn ap Nudd's May Day nemesis who batters him to death each year so spring can be sprung. Also, the fact that, y'know, Gwyn stole Creiddylad from him probably put his nose out of joint.

And then u have Gwenhwyfar three whose dad was Ogrfan Fawr, a literal giant. Like sjdjdjd Neato. Although she did start Camlann along with her sister, Gwenhwyfach, so like can't give her all the plaudits there.

As for whether they're like a reflection of some long-lost triple goddess, I don't think so. If they were - and it's a very tenuous if - then why haven't we found records for that? Or some reflection of that from the myths? We know Rhiannon from Branch 1 of the Mabinogi was a goddess, or at the very least an echo of one, so why don't we have that for Gwenhwyfar?

Personally, I can't see it. We only know of Ogrfan's Gwenhwyfar that she was 'bad when little, worse when great.' As for the other two, I don't have anything to go on! The lack of sources is frustrating but I mean at the end of the day I can't be like 'Oh, you shouldn't believe this!' I would just caution that I can't give u a full picture simply because there isn't one!

I think it's fascinating that the triads were like 'Yeah, Arthur had three wives and they're all named the same!' Like he must be one scatter-brained lad if he can't remember names! That detail is just so sjdjssks.

Anyways, hope u have a good day, anon! I'm sorry I couldn't give you much I'm just incredibly hesitant to ascribe things to the three Gwenhwyfar's when I can't give you sources for them!

[trinityalps]

^ appears to imply arthur is married to ... 3 seperate women named gwenhyfar?