#Warrior Cats discourse

[clanslist]

[w1ldfeatherxx]

Scourge in his manga:

Scourge in Leopardstar's honor:

Like, why would Scourge of all characters give a fuck about some clan cats being half-clan?? Scourge himself was treated poorly by clan cats twice (Tigerstar & Brokentail) because of his kittypet / non-clan origins. In the manga he clearly did not appreciate Tigerstar's contempt towards Bloodclan cats. Tigerstar's & the clans' hatred towards any cat usually stems from their xenophobic ideologies, so it should be pretty obvious Scourge held a grudge against them for their xenophobia and overall racism.

So again, why the Hell would Scourge take part in Tigerstar's racism, a product of the toxic aspects of clan culture which, by the way, almost resulted in Scourge's death in his kithood??? O_o'

Make it make sense lmfao

[bonefall]

Bones someone made a "Squirrelflight is worse" document on Twitter and people are defending him because "evil squilf fans" or whatever I feel like I'm going mad

Can't say I'm surprised. Bramblestans are so whiny they could rival Italy's yearly chianti exports.

Honestly I'd just dismiss them as contrarian. Especially when they're young, people feel special for arguing their unpopular opinions. Add that to a mix of this fandom being pretty notoriously sexist against female characters (like when they just make shit up about Nightcloud) and I think this sort of discourse becomes predictable.

Let me guess though; the claim is, "Squilf is rude sometimes which means she deserves to be abused by her husband/boss?" I wouldn't expect much better from a document that can't even think of an original title.

[jayfs-feather]

Me watching proshippers compare saying “hey it’s weird to ship adults and children” to StarClan rules against interclan/medicine cat relationships

[crystals-warriors-rewrite]

PPL R USING DA R-SLUR???!! I THOGUGJT WE STOPPED BEINF ABLEIST !!!!!

I thought so too :/

Apparently there are a few people using it against Moonpaw

[aurorechaton]

Controversial and/or aggressive brambleclaw take for the warrior cats fandom incoming...

Let me just say that I won't argue any further on this. I haven't read the newest arcs, and I don't want to. I tried reading the arc with Alderheart and Twigbranch twice, and I still couldn't tell you what happened. I literally blocked it out both times.

I've been a warrior cats kid for my entire life. It was the first multi-book series I red on my own, I read the main arcs 7-10 times in roughly 4 years, trust me, I was OBSESSED.

But I was never a part of online fandom culture. I lived under a rock, I didn't have any social media, I barely saw the animations on youtube, and I never looked any deeper. I think that's why I'm so horrified by the fandom take on everything to do with the leafpool-squilf-brambleclaw/star-hawkfrost-the three-etc. thing.

CONTEXT:

When I was a child, I loved leafpool. I was never a big fan of squilf, and I can admit that may cloud some of my takes. I am going to arguably be defending Brambleclaw up until the end of the fourth arc, but I don't think I'll be doing it in the way you think?

THE ROOT OF THE ISSUE:

I was genuinely SO MAD , while the sisters were warning Brambleclaw not to interact with Hawkfrost.

While we as an audience know that they were correct to do so, I related heavily to Bramble's need to connect with family. Maybe it was the way I vividly remembered how Firestar kept thinking about how Bramble looked like Tiger I, maybe it was everything that Tawny went through, maybe it was just my intense need to see warrior cats who overcame prejudice, but I hated the way Leafpool approached the whole situation. Rather than attempt to connect with Bramble, her clanmate, and the tom courting her sister, she only interacted with him to speak badly about Hawkfrost. She literally had her in with Moth, right there. She almost always stuck her foot in her mouth, failed to provide much evidence, or to connect with him on an emotional level.

FACTS v FEELINGS, + my attempt to fight what I think are the most prevalent views? If you don't think this way, this post isn't about you.

Squilf's arguments were more convincing, but facts and logic won't win when what you are arguing against is emotional connections. It certainly didn't for Leafpool, or any cat with a cross-clan relationship who KNEW it was only hurting them. You can't out-logic the heart. I should think we all know that.

I believe the moonkitti video, (which I will being using as a rough reference, since it helpfully gives direct quotes,) about Bramblestar was the most aggravating for this particular reason. The excerpts given in the video often take such a lens that is presumably only about facts, when warrior cats is a soap opera, it's about the emotional connections. Squilf, for example, tells Bramble that Leaf doesn't Like Hawk, but admits she hadn't bothered asking why, and questions why Bramble would ever feel an emotional connection with his half-brother. I find this extremely hypocritical. Bramble has shown himself to be extremely obsessed with the way the clan sees him, his father, and the connection between them. Squilf should know by now that Bramble feels much stronger about keeping his connection with Tawny that vice versa. Moonkitti also implies that because Squilf doesn't even imply something, it's the same as denying it, which, pointedly she doesn't do. (not five minutes later, the video also shows an excerpt where Bramble doesn't tell Squilf something, and she immediately takes this as a sign of hostility and rejection. He didn't imply that with his voice, posture, or words, and they literally just had an argument. Bramble is clearly just insecure and in his own head. She's supposed to be the more socially adjusted one.)

When he jumps immediately to emotional responses, so does she, claiming that Bramble clearly doesn't know anything about her, but clearly the same goes the other way around, so I find this extremely wild. I could understand her offense in the moment, but it goes round and round like this every time, and at no point does she attempt to clear the air on a previous conversation in a patient or genuine way. I'm not saying she has to, but I think it is something at least worth noting. While everyone agrees she's attempting to reconcile with him, I would argue she does it it the worst way possible for him specifically.

Bramble is willing to accept her apologies, and will apologize himself later, but just because he's willing to forgive doesn't mean he's over it, and he's clearly been slow to trust anyone with what happens in his head. Mans spends way too much time thinking if you ask me. Was the most annoying part of the series. She then tells him off for gossiping with Hawk at a gathering. And yes, what they were saying was rude, but Squilf makes it sound paradoxically like disliking Onewisker's decision is somehow being disloyal to Thunderclan, because Onewisker is friendly to the clan, and also only unacceptable because he was discussing it with Hawkfrost. Plenty of cats in previous books would have been considered grumpy but loyal for expressing those kinds of opinions. I find it odd that she tells him off for criticizing someone he has no moral or personal allegiance to. She also deflects every question he asks her, no matter how genuine or asinine, which honestly does feel like an implication.

Which is why I don't like seeing Squilf as the sole victim here. Yes, she's a victim. Considering that when she realizes she still wants Bramble, she's been given a great out and he has made no attempt at winning her favor again (no honeymoon phase), and then she doesn't even bring up her issues with Hawkfrost again (supposedly the catalyst for all of this). This doesn't feel like her being manipulated back into a relationship; this feels like shitty writing. The fact that the narrative makes no move to actually reconcile them is not Bramble's fault, it's the Erins.

I think Moonkitti best exemplifies my frustration with this particular issue by saying "when he, again, criticizes her for being distrusting and being rude to Hawkfrost", which, in this situation, she was actually directly attacking HIM, almost more so than Hawkfrost. From his point of view, I wonder if it doesn't sound exactly like that. (She will continue to do this. It will only get worse.) Instead of Leaf and Squilf being worried Bramble is being dragged into this while he's emotionally vulnerable, they both begin to berate him instead of connecting with him. Why does anyone think that should work for them? They may be objectively right, but their arguments are not at all persuading. (Proabably on purpose, damn Erins shakes fist)

Not Defending Everything, OBVIOUSLY:

In the next line, of course, Bramble says he'd never choose someone else over her. (and if I were to fix this the only way fandom can, I'd interpret this to be a showcase of his desperate need to be trusted; a false promise to return that trust. In context I think the Erins mean this literally, so... eh, not a great moment for him, no.) This, I think we can safely say is objectively false in that moment, although not outright malicious.

In this case, the relationship is abusive not due to the will of the individuals, but because of the outside pressures of the horrible system the Erins have built that must not be questioned. When the Erins make terrible narrative decisions to defend their biased world-building, we're supposed to blame them, and work to remedy the situation within the fandom, not accept it as gospel. It's what we do with Hollyleaf and Ashfur, or any of their decisions about where dead cats go.

Yes, Bramble is horrible to Squilf, Warrior Cats is an inherently misogynistic story, this is hardly the first time toms treat their mates horribly. Given my experience with warriors, in none of the 7 times I read through this arc, even disliking the relationship, did it seem particularly toxic because of Bramble. Usually, it was Squilf being forced into courting because of the expectations of clan life, and Bramble doing what a lot of other toms did; flirting with her, seeing her as incapable of defending herself, especially from other men, etc.

SOCIAL INTERACTIONS IN WARRIORS:

I've seen people ragging on the fact that Bramble hesitated to free Firestar, despite the fact that he was being actively manipulated, something shady was going on in his clan, he was isolated, and was afraid that Fire would accuse him, something that from his earlier distrust of Bramble as a kit because of his EYES, might even seem reasonable when Hawkfrost seemed (before that point) to be the perfect example of people only seeing their pelts. He also has a right to hesitate to figure out what to do next, seeing as Hawkfrost clearly wasn't just going to let this go? Idk, pretty nit-picky in both directions.

Before the journey over the mountains, Bramble only has an established relationship (From his perspective) with Tawny and maybe squilf? Even they are pretty distant. Bramble is never shown hanging out with other cats in the clan, or even thinking about particular cats he wants to get back to. If I didn't know about the third and fourth arcs I would have told you that Bramble's arc would only be resolved by connecting with Fire, or by leaving the clan entirely. Personally, I would have had Leafpool be his draw back to the clan, a brown tabby, Firestar's daughter, a calm and intensely caring cat, who cares so much about family and her clan, I wanted to see Fire basically become Bramble's surrogate father in the second arc it HURT.

On the other side, Ashfur IS set up with a sort of clique (although it quickly disintegrates because by this point the Erins were done writing genuine friendships outside of siblings.), and does appear to be close with other cats before his introduction. We have no reason to believe his is insecure about his relationships with others, and no reason to believe his reputation in the clan is in any danger (even if it's just in his own head). This is what, to me, separates the two sides of our love triangle. Bramble almost always backs off the second he sees Squilf with another cat, and I believe that if the Erins were less stubborn, or Brambleclaw had any other friends, their relationship might well have died out naturally. Ashfur on the other hand is just a creep. I don't like him, never did.

I don't think any of Bramble's actions make him nonredeemable until after Mudclaw's coup. Even after that, I found him mostly reacting in the way someone who's been ostracized, and whose clan is probably eyeing him with suspicion at the moment, which, near as I can tell, is literally his greatest fear. With the added patented warriors misogyny on top of course. People keep questioning his loyalty, so he becomes a hardass about putting the clan first, particularly pointing it the woman who he's desperate to prove wrong and also strangely overprotective of, that's pretty on brand for Warriors.

While I honestly don't think the Erins meant to set all of this up like this, I think there are some compelling narrative threads to Bramble's story in the second arc. I think author bias accidentally reflected some very real trauma that can come from the pressures patriarchy puts on men. But, again, this is the ERINS book, obviously there are lots of flaws to be found. Not even the characters that are meant to be perfect are without some semblance of bigotry. I find the specific hate borne towards Bramble to be the result of the fandom's pent up frustrations with the writing of this arc and the waffling characterization, rather than an honest reflection of how people felt when they were first forced to interpret this character. I do not think this is the only cat this happened to. I think Dovewing got similarly shafted by the fandom. I think she was one of the few "anxious" cats that felt somewhat authentic. (Again, ignoring everything with Tiger II, assume I didn't even read all that)

TL;DR:

OBVIOUSLY I DID NOT SHIP THESE TWO, I DO NOT LIKE THEIR RELATIONSHIP. (I think they should be surrogate siblings, and if someone could feed that delusion I should be ever so thankful)

I do not think their relationship actually had a power imbalance in the earlier arcs. Squilf has her father's favor and trust, as well as her sister, a medicine cat. If she at any point actually felt like Brambleclaw was a legit threat or bully, she had the option to do more than just avoid him. She never lets anyone else stand up for her, though. I think it's unfair to say that just because she didn't leverage her power, that she didn't have any. Were she a more viscous or cornered cat, she had the ammunition to sway the clan against Bramble. Their relationship didn't start until both of them were old enough to be warriors, even if Squilf was an apprentice when they set out, and Bramble had no say over her actions away from the clan. Squilf often makes this clear.

I think the abuse seen in their relationship is only more obvious to the reader as the Erins attempt to write their way around a willful woman without rethinking their bias against women. I do not think it is any more pronounced than many other warriors relationships. I think that Squilf's sudden change to submissive and powerless is a direct result of her perceived motherhood in the Erins eyes.

I think people forget that Brambleclaw's personal story is about trust and acceptance, making the fact that Squilf lied to him at any point push him to his most emotional extremes. Considering the entire third and fourth arc is just a whole bunch of secrets and espionage, I think it's telling that he's at worst, a petty bully or paranoid and cold deputy. (Also, I don't think anyone brings up the fact that STARCLAN INTERVENED when trying to defend Squilf in story? like, that feels like a big deal in our judgement of her, but I don't think any of them are privy to that info??) I'd argue his statement when he makes her deputy "there's no one I trust more" is the first time he extends trust willingly and freely to someone outside of his bloodline, and I wish this were treated by the narrative as a resolution to a lot of his character issues.

All this to say I believe there are charitable ways to interpret his actions, and I don't see people doing that?

Mostly, I just want to see Bramble convincingly written like someone with cptsd and who is crushingly isolated, rather than an arrogant prick.

Also, why didn't Leaf talk to Bramble, like, way more????

[sapphic-catz]

Idk this is purely based on my opinions okay? Understand that? Okay then

I’ve seen a lot of au’s and rewrites for warrior cats. We all know how sexist this series is. A lot of people try and fix this and that’s awesome. But like. Idk.

Every time I see a swiftpaw lives instead of brightpaw au it just irks me. Why not Bright? Why can’t you just explore the trauma and life of Brightheart? She has so much potential that isn’t shown that you can use. Or even worse when both live and she’s made into just a love interest for Swift or or or given a automatic healing arc just so she can help Swift deal with the trauma they both share.

Another thing is how overlooked still a ton of female characters are instead of male characters. Even if they’re like shown often. Like cmon we need more Sandstorm as deputy or Sandstars. Why does every other deputy choice under Firestar never women. Like cmon. It’s always Longtail, Brackenfur, Whitestorm (canon but in these he lives instead), or some other dude.

How about Morningflower??? Not as a deputy under Fire but as a bigger character instead of grieving mother who talks to Fireheart like twice. Make her the deputy before Mudclaw and Onewhisker where she retired now and the two fight over the next role. Works great for drama still and patches the Deadfoot being already dead thing.

Russetfur is also sitting right there y’all. She should get more!!!! Give me mroe of her!!!!

[lander64]

Friendly reminder that liking a character is not the same as defending them, especially if that character is a villain or otherwise antagonist.

[brokentranstar]

Re-reading Starlight with my girlfriend and can I just say Brambleclaw is mean and a dumbass later afterwards but the scene where they break up for the first time specifically and scenes before that is kind of just Squirrelflight being unreasonable Personally, in this instance I find both of them as being morally grey, both of them are people with their opinions and that's okay, I'm glad they have emotions, but Squirrelflight is overreacting, like Leafpaw SAYS, even, lol.... The conversation really goes like "You can't talk with Hawkfrost, he's evil!!" "Proof?" "OMG U NEVER LISTEN TO ME"

Genuinely, Squirrelflight gives no proof and gets angry/upset when Brambleclaw doesn't agree with her just like that Especially since Squirrel's whole point is that Leafpaw told her Hawkfrost is bad, and he is, but why is Squirrelflight allowed to listen to her sisters every word and react based on that, but Brambleclaw can't even breathe too close to Hawkfrost? Heck, Leafpaw doesn't even care, and Hawkfrost being evil is HER battle.

Remember: If your SO tells you they saw a rainbow squirrel, you have to believe them immediately, with no proof, or else they have every right to break up with you!

I don't like Brambleclaw, or Hawkfrost that much, but this part of the book really irritated me.

[playawner]

Adding Nightheart with Splashtail and Rainflower has the same energy as this:

I think that Appledusk, Crowfeather, Bramblestar, Tom, Clear Sky, One-Eye, Tigerheartstar, Splashtail, Darktail, Onestar, Rainflower, Lizardstripe, Pinestar, Juniperclaw, Nightheart, Blackstar, and Oakstar deserve the Dark Forest.

Mapleshade, Berryheart, Brightflower, Leafpool, Squirrelstar, and Curlfeather deserve StarClan.

I am divided on Frecklewish. She called Mapleshade’s kits names you shouldn’t call children and I wouldn’t be surprised if she let them drown. Idc if she can’t swim, she should’ve gone to get more backup and shouldn’t have called the kits and Mapleshade names. But she did end up dying for it so idk. She could go to either. That’s my opinion.

.

[rookflower]

whichever one of us is a person first

[warriorcatdumpster]

terrible family of amorphous blobs

[w1ldfeatherxx]

Things wrong with Warriors - Foxes vs Cats

There's lots of things wrong in the Warriors books, one of them is how foxes are portrayed as german shepherd sized monsters that shred full grown cats to pieces with ease. In reality, they're only a little bigger than your average cat and are no match to cats in fighting most of the time. Here's pictures of real cats and foxes together:

Cats are known for their ability to defend themselves against much bigger animals. In Warriors, they should be even better at it, because they get combat training for Hell's sake! So why don't we see more of cats beating the crap outta foxes, dogs, badgers etc. in the books? It makes zero sense to me...

[ersh-ova]

"Oui, tell him that, like him, I choose to burn out rather than fade away!"

there are members of the dark forest who will never ever fade because their memory will live on forever, their crimes so notorious that their legacy will not die... and there are members of the dark forest who will fade after just a couple of generations, a blip in time, because despite their "eternal damnation" they never committed a crime great enough to be remembered for much at all

[valhallasoutlaw]

Let me know if I'm being a bigot but I think that the Owls of Ga'Hoole could reduce any Warrior Cat Clan to paste.

I haven't read Warrior cats so I might be talking out my ass, but as much as I love that Scourge cat with the claw collar I don't think that they can compete with like...steel? I can't begin to tell you how batshit insane it is that the birds have extracted raw iron, purified it and perfected the art of metallurgy to forge it into their weapons. Like. Boron wears GOLD. I'm not even sure OoGH and Warrior Cats are in the same league?

An elite cabal of ancient warriors with high grade metal weapons and armor that are capable of silent flight and mass combat logistics...and a bunch of (really angry) cats?

[myfandomrealitea]

Oh yeah the WC fandom is fucking insane.

There's a very popular fanartist who has an OC that's a villain and people were harassing her because her villain is a white cat in a clan of black cats, and she was bullied and abused by them for her fur color.

People were literally accusing her of being a racist because "The white cat is being abused by the black cats, the artist is clearly saying that black people are evil and violent and want to victimize white people!"

The artist literally based the dynamic on how crows will ostracize birds in their flock that have albinism and people were going, "Why did she have to do this story with cats? Why not just do it with crows? Kind of sus :/"

Like,,, hello? What? It's fine if the story is about birds, but if it's about cats, it's racist? How does that make any fucking sense.