#Virginia creel analysis | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

bugsbenefit · 2 years ago

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what is UP with Alice Creel?

okay finally going into what i talked about here, what is Alice Creels deal? i'm ignoring any theories that Alice Creel is actually Karen Wheeler or any other character we know for this and just purely focus on Alice the way we see her in the flashbacks. because i've been thinking about the general oddness of Alice Creel for way too long (in a numbered list format because i like those and they're easier to keep track of *heart*)

as a quick overview:

1.) Alice is paralleled to Henry. Why though?

2.) the reason these parallels are so weird

3.) the death of Alice Creel - or more specifically WHEN does Alice Creel die? the timeline is WHACK

4.) "so... what? Alice is coming back to tell her story? she's dead."

here we go ->

1.) Alice is paralleled to Henry. Why though?

Alice has an odd amount of contrast to her brother given that we only see her in the Creel flashbacks. she has More screen time than Virginia, but still, she's a side character that seems to serve the main purpose of getting killed by Henry. they're siblings but the main relationship we know them by is murderer and murder victim, so them getting compared on a narrative level feels a bit misguided given their power and story-importance imbalance

some of the most eye caching contrasts:

1.1.) the Angel and the Demon

firstly, this was something that i thought was actually pretty straight forward on the show when Victor first mentioned it and was then surprised when they didn't make it explicit. Victor Creel begins telling his story and he's a very religious man, attributing the display of powers to a supernatural demon. and he's not wrong about something going on, he just doesn't realise it's his son doing it, so the religious imagery becomes a place holder for Henry. we know Henry is the demon. if they mention the demon? Henry!

but then it gets weird when we're suddenly introduced to a second religious figure. the Angel. the angel that saves him from the demon no less. the demon is a real person but the angel is just the radio? sure, maybe. but Victor was actually right in identifying the demon, he just put the wrong name on it, him identifying another religious entity in his house right after doesn't really give us any reason to believe he's wrong this time around. you can make the argument that the singer, Ella Fitzgerald, is the angel. but random singer vs evil superpowerd child feels much more impersonal than sister vs brother. Max let the music guide her and was ultimately saved by her friends calling out to her and her memories of them. sure, Victor's favourite 60s singer could have solely saved him from Henry by randomly playing on the radio, right place right time for once on this show i guess, but from a story writing perspective it's incredible anticlimactic

1.2.) and on this topic of music. WHY is there even music?

the radio plays right before Virginia dies and it is Victor's favourite song "Dream a little Dream" that's on. but after grabbing the children and running into the hall we can't hear the radio anymore. he tries to exit the building, falls into his vision, walks around a bit, and only THEN begins to hear the song again. so why does he even hear it in the first place? you could make the argument that not much time has passed and that the radio is just still playing, but that contradicts what we see on screen. we can't hear the radio outside the dining room. had it been the radio, why does it take a solid minute in his vision before he randomly starts hears it again? if that's not enough, Henry also messes with the radio channels right before killing Virginia so the chance of the station randomly ending back on "Dream a little Dream" is incredible small in and of itself. and on top of all of that: the music is also Gone when he snaps out of his vision. if it truly was the radio that saved him he would still be hearing it afterwards. but he doesn't

so whatever allowed Victor to hear the song that night, it was definitely not thanks to the radio that he couldn't hear and that wasn't even playing the right station anymore

and then there is also the weird connection made between Alice and Dreams in one of the few verbal lines we get from the flashbacks that aren't narrated by either Victor or Henry:

this line serves no purpose, we learn nothing new except that she likes the house which we could already tell by her attitude. the phrasing is also a bit clunky. however, she now just randomly name dropped dreams for no greater narrative purpose we know of. and she does so TWICE because this is one of the only scenes we get in full in both Henry's AND Victor's flashback

1.3.) then there's the general parallel

in fiction you'll find the trope of the paralleled siblings quite often. one is a nerd the other a jock. goth and prep. popular and loser. stereotypical girly girl and himbo guy. good twin evil twin. the list goes on. and despite Alice seemingly having no greater importance to the narrative than to die we get parallels between her and her evil superpowered brother as well:

we get lines like "sweet innocent Alice" while Henry sits in his spider attic trying to haunt her dreams

and while Henry has his dark closed off attic space we see him mostly in, we see Alice outside (playing like a normal child) in the open air playground on a slide looking like a rocket for some reason

and Alice being backlit even stronger than Will in the van scenes himself while finding the dead rabbit her brother just killed

you can definitely read these two as being opposite coded. Alice being good (not murderous) and also conforming to expectations, not standing out clothing wise like Henry, not trying to break the space-time-continuum because she's scared of societies expectations. being seen as sweet. (which okay to be fair, Victor also thought Henry was sweet so maybe he's not the best judge of character and she could have also been super mean but we'll just go with it for now) and then Henry being the "evil" sibling out to hurt people. who can't conform and then decides to break out of his role (which results in the family murder day). but all this just raises the question again why these two uneven characters even get paralleled to begin with. Alice is just the sister he kills, she's in no way on an equal level to him as far as we know so why does she get to stand as his opposite narratively?

1.4.) and the arguably most on the nose parallel of all

which actually convinced me that there was something going on on my first watch-through -> they fall mirrored behind their father. they face each other, both with their arms bracing the ground bellow. had they fallen any different (as in, had Henry just fallen straight backwards like he already did before dipping sideways for some reason) no one would think anything of it. but alas, they DID fall the same and now were here

i'm serious this is weird, we're back to them being paralleled and put on an equal level despite the fact that they couldn't be further apart in story relevance, power, and character depth, as far as we know. that's the classic, good sibling evil sibling, yin and yang imagery

(also ignore the image quality pls, i had screenshots and didn't want to go back to get a better one, so you're getting a cropped one sorry u.u)

2.) the reason these parallels are so weird

i talked about this here before. essentially, when analysing film, you obviously look at what you see on screen, that's what you're working with. but in any analysis it's almost More important to ask yourself WHY you're seeing it and didn't get any alternative imagery of the infinite possibilities that could be used to convey the scene. because this always tells you the most about the intention and focus of the writers/directors

as an example: why is the scene in the pizza freezer shot at such a weird angle? they could have done that Any other way. we could have seen the character from behind and had everyone in frame. we could have actually seen El's face. etc. Answer: we didn't get any of the alternative options because they wanted Will to be in frame, he's directly involved in the delivery of the monologue and even prompts it. we don't see Everyone, we don't see El's face. the angle is there because Will's face needs to be in frame

essentially, movie doesn't happen on it's own and parallels are hard to make, you have to pay attention when writing AND shooting AND acting AND editing, etc. they rarely happen on their own or on accident. so now let's apply this to the Creels:

why did Alice even have the weird clunky line about the house being like a dream when we already saw her be excited to move in? why did they spend screentime writing a line that tells in addition to already showing, that's incredibly unnecessary? (not even mentioning that we get the line Twice from both Victor's AND Henry's story. at this point it feels important, because no other lines get repeated like this)

why do they lie on the ground in the same way? Henry was in a prime position of landing on his back when he started falling, but somehow he ends up on his side instead? if any of them were facing in the other direction, were lying on their back, or just had their arms sprawled out wider they wouldn't mirror anymore. but as it is, even the angle their legs have is identical. why would they shoot it like this? why does Henry suddenly parallel his presumed victim? he's a murderous psychic, why is he mirrored to his normal sister here? there were endless ways for them to fall that wouldn't have made them parallel each other and yet here we are

and (almost most important of all imo) why does Henry even have a sister? as in, what narrative benefit is there? to make the Creel's fit more in the nuclear family picture with two instead of one child? maybe, but you still have to work with the characters you add, why does she have so little to do? Victor survives and becomes our narrator. Virginia is the first victim of Henry and antagonised him in life. Alice is... his sister. if they didn't have any role for her to play they could have just excluded her, only-child families existed in the 60s and would still perfectly work with the narrative. so why IS there a sister in the house? to show that Henry just became weird on his own and that his sister managed to turn out alright despite them sharing parents and living in the same house? well, yeah maybe, but now we're already back at the good vs evil sibling set up that directly pits Alice and Henry against each other in a parallel. and you could argue that she was there to make the torment and murder of his family more severe and shocking. except that the only thing we see of her is her waking up from a nightmare and finding the dead rabbit, both things we could have also gotten from the parents and didn't actually need a whole new character for. AND WE DON'T EVEN SEE HER DIE so that's completely wasted the potential of making the murder night seem more brutal or cruel

and actually about that, let's get to the big thing...

3.) the death of Alice Creel - or more specifically WHEN does Alice Creel die? the timeline is WHACK

here we go. the weird part. everything else until now was analysis about the purpose of her character, weird framing and narrative choices, and odd parallels. but now we get to the big thing that genuinely doesn't make sense

why don't we see Alice die on screen?

Virginia died in less than 5 seconds. it's quick since we didn't even see her vision, similar to Patrick. Virginia's death was the fastest we see on the show and we actually see it Twice, both from Victors And Henry's flashback. so why didn't we get a three second shot of Alice falling to the ground in either of the visions? it's a small detail but the more you actually look into it the more nonsensical it gets

we saw all 4 curse victims die. we saw Virginia die (twice). and Henry does kill fast making it a non-screen-time-eater. if they wanted to be original and not show another body hit the ground. why didn't they verbally mention it instead? Henry doesn't even say "and then after i killed my sister i tried to get my dad too". Alice is completely left out of the narrative after Henry begins his familicide mission. we see her suddenly lying unmoving on the floor at some point but we don't see OR hear how she got there - we just have to assume from context clues that it was Henry who did it. which is odd considering Henry only had 3 family members, two of which he killed, but somehow that was too much to show so we just skip it and see one of them die twice instead?

that's all already weird. but there is a bit of an explanation why we don't see it happen. it's because neither Victor OR Henry actually see it happen themselves...

let's look at what happened with Alice as far as we can follow. neither Victor's nor Henry's vision are ever shown to be incorrect. even what we see from Victor only gets backed up later, he's just lacking a literal angle to look at his son. so. what's Alice up to? and when does she end up on the ground?

well from Victor's flashback we learn that she's fine when Victor goes into his vision

this is less than a second before Victor breaks through the door and falls into the vision. (note Henry being ominously cropped because Victor is biased and we only learn how fucked up and responsible for this Henry is later on) however, we DO see Alice and she looks upset, but fine overall. standing upright, nothing broken, no blood, no possessed Vecna eyes, no levitating. and given that even Virginia's speed killing took roughly 5 seconds she is fine when Victor's vision starts a second later

but then Victor snaps out of his vision after hearing his favourite song, turns around, and both his children are on the ground now

so. we can infer, Alice died sometime during Victor's vision. she was fine less than a second before he went into it. she was dead when he came out of it. fair enough. of course we didn't see her die in Victor's version of events because he was literally in a trance when she died, makes sense so far

except now we have a problem because how did Henry actually kill her? for real this time. it's no longer just a "why didn't we see it happen"? it's a genuine "how DID this happen?"- because Henry SUCKS as multi tasking with powers! canonically!

that's what leads to him getting flambeed in s4 to begin with. Henry closes his eyes and has to focus to channel his powers. we see it when he does as little as manipulate a clock, then he grows stronger and still needs to close his eyes and zone out when he kills Virginia. he keeps getting stronger with every victim but we even see it years later when he kills as Vecna. despite seeming much stronger, he STILL can't multi task. in order to even just see into someone's mind he has to motionlessly suspend himself in his attic (like a rip off of El's sensory deprivation tanks tbh) and while he visits people he's completely tuned out of his body, making him vulnerable to attacks when the teens visit him in the UD

however, we're left with a situation here where Alice actively died DURING Victor's vision that Henry was actively inflicting on him. which means that Henry killed her while Also trying to kill his father at the same time. so. how did he do that? especially when much stronger adult Henry failed to even have basic awareness of his surroundings when he was in Max's head? and Henry is only 12 in the flashbacks canonically, he's much Much weaker, he also just straight up falls into a coma after struggling to kill his father when the song is making it harder for him. he literally almost died himself here. but he also somehow killed his sister quickly in between without Victor ever escaping the vision???

and when we finally get Henry's pov of that night we still don't see anything clearing Alice's death up. Virginia dies, we cut to the moment right before Victor snaps out of the vision, and then zoom in over Alice who's already on the ground and turn around to look at Henry who's incredibly focused with his eyes closed as he tries to kill Victor. (odd shot choice considering we learn Nothing about Alice here except an acknowledgement of the timeline that yep, she's on the ground again) moments later Henry falls into the coma

Alice was alive as Victor's vision started and on the ground at the latest very shortly before it ended. so again. WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN?

we already saw enough victims die. we got sped up versions like with Virginia and Patrick where we didn't even have to see the visions. so why did they deem it unnecessary to show us Alice die? did they just forget to have Henry mention he killed her? and what's up with the timeline because as it stands her death is actually impossible:

alive as Henry enters Victor's mind to induce the vision -> unclear what happens as we follow Henry and Victor into the vision -> on the ground seconds before Henry falls into a coma -> dead?

so the only natural conclusion for her death is that... Henry killed her in his first and only feet of successful multi-tasking which we didn't get to see for some reason, and he also never manages to replicate even when teenagers were shooting shotguns at him years later? the timeline makes no sense the way it's presented. Henry would have been physically incapable of killing her Virginia style while fully out of it and focused on his father the way he was. there is either something to Henry's powers we haven't seen yet that allowed him to do this or a whole aspect of that night that we haven't seen yet

but this unanswered question about the timeline that just raises more and more questions actually does answer a different question as said before:

we didn't see Alice die because neither Henry nor Victor saw it either. Victor was in his vision. Henry had his shifting eyes closed as he was in Victor's mind

this doesn't explain at ALL how Alice actually dropped dead on the floor but Does explain why we don't see it. and that's how the entire Creel flashbacks work to begin with. we see what the characters perceived to have happened. narrative bias and all. Victor gives us his account of the demon. Henry adds his attic and murder moments to it later. Henry is able to tell us his father got arrested that night despite already being in a coma because that's something he found out after the fact. Vecna knows Victor is at Pennhurst so he must have found out about his fathers arrest at some point. and with the set up of withholding perspectives from us that the Creel family has, it makes sense we don't see Alice die because everyone is preoccupied as she does so

i would genuinely not be surprised if we got a Third addition to that night (rule of three's am i right) to show us what happened in that time period of Victor's vision we missed. with the theme of unreliable narrators and the fact we're lacking a time frame where BOTH our narrators are completely occupied in which one of the 4 main characters of the scene also Dies raises alarm bells

4.) "so... what? Alice is coming back to tell her story? she's dead."

well yeah. she is. maybe.

i can certainly not blame anyone for assuming Alice is dead, it's a fair assumption because that's what's conveyed to us on screen. however, with a show that enjoys fucking with perception and perspective as much as ST... well we can certainly question if the dead body we see is actually dead or if our pov characters are just mislead. especially when there are other things standing out as odd

also just adding here: Alice being dead or not has nothing to do with the previous points listed. they all raise questions on their own. her death is just the final addition to the long list of what the fuck is up with Alice Creel? and the fact even her Death is questionable is why people think she might return to tell her side of the story (be that as Karen Wheeler, other characters we know, or just Random-WomanTM)

so Alice is dead right? we see it right here. but the thing is. why does she look nothing like ANY of the other Vecna victims we saw. and it's not like we shouldn't notice the differences since we just saw Virginia die a typical Vecna death in the scene prior

they both bleed from their eyes alright, which both appear to be dark. good. first similarity checked off

now we have the problem that nothing else matches anymore. Alice is the only dead victim that has her mouth closed for some reason. Vecna makes a big show of breaking every bone in his victim's bodies before pushing their eyes in, the limbs and JAR being the most jarring part (haha funny) Patrick, Crissy, Fred, Virginia, all have their mouths open (even in Vecna's mind dimension. the bodies' jaws remain open and broken grotesquely). the only other person we see with a still intact jaw was Max who just as a reminder wasn't dead and actually survived her encounter with Vecna. she died of her injuries right after. but she survived the Vecna'ing itself and her jaw was unbroken, just as Alice's

and as we see with Max, bleeding from your eyes itself actually doesn't kill you. it's the general trauma to the body and that kills you if you survive the initial vecna'ing

but that's not where the weird surrounding Alice Creel ends. because Alice doesn't have that severe physical trauma, she is the LEAST injured Vecna victim we see on the whole show. it's not just her jaw, that is just the most obvious body part we see still intact in the closeup. you know how Henry makes a big deal of snapping every bone in people's bodies even as a tiny child killing his mother? well he kind of forgot to do that with Alice

we spent the entire season seeing the mangled corpses of Vecna's victims including Virginia on the dinner table seconds before this, so why are Alice's bones not snapped like toothpicks?

her left arm is clearly broken, bent behind her back. but that's it. her right arm is completely fine which we can see even better than her left arm because it's laid out on the floor. both her legs have a natural angle (Henry was literally laying just like her until Victor picked him up so those are definitely all good) and again, her jaw is fine too. so. why is Alice not horribly disfigured? she's lying still, that's infinitely easier to CGI than the falling and floating corpses of all the other victims that DO get their bones snapped. so why didn't they animate her other arm to be broken for example or even just used practical effects since she isn't moving to begin with. it's not like they forgot since her left arm IS broken, they just didn't go all the way here for some reason

again, look at her and compare her to every other Vecna victim we saw. these are SURVIVABLE injuries. she's bleeding from her eyes and her left arm is broken. Max died from the shock and culmination of her injuries. Alice would not die from a broken arm. the only possibility for Alice to die here is if Henry straight up stopped her heart and did so BEFORE breaking any bones. which would also be something we haven't seen him do before

taking all this into account. let's make up a scenario where Alice could have actually gotten injured and died during that night:

Henry was busy killing his father. Alice asked him what the fuck he was doing being a little weirdo standing around with his eyes closed and shifting all over the place, right after their mother died and their father was standing around like a statue. and then Henry killed her quickly without exiting his father's vision, which he somehow managed to do but which was still hard for him so he couldn't break any of her bones. but he still managed to take her life by injuring her heart or brain instead of any physical body parts for once. and then Henry fell into a coma when he tried to fully focus on his father again

and this is actually the only way this night could have gone down when taking all we know into account. Alice had to have died during Victor's vision. Henry was busy focusing on the vision. Alice presumably dies with little injuries and for no reason we're told or shown

but then why didn't we see it? it does sound straight forward, so why not show it? well as of now we're literally lacking a perspective of someone who Wasn't mentally hanging out in Victor's vision

"but how would Alice return, she'd at least be blind" well yeah? maybe? but also, again, this is stranger things. they fuck with the narrative all the time. we're missing a full season before we have the full story. we saw Hopper standing in a collapsing room only to learn he didn't die in there the next season. we see Henry lie on the ground with his sister, Eddie's uncle and the newspaper all tell us he died, only to then find out he was very much still alive at the end of the season. could Alice be blind if she survived? yes. could her eyes have recovered? potentially? we don't even know how severely she got hurt in the first place so Anything could be revealed about her in the next season

"but the papers said she died" that one is actually a fully invalid point. they also wrote Henry died. they didn't even know Henry was in a coma, we learn that from Victor. the papers also thought Will died And was found by Hopper in a cabin which were both incorrect. (the paper in Hawkins generally doesn't have the best track record to be honest) so the paper saying Alice died in the same breath they claim Henry died isn't really the most convincing thing

"but Victor only said Henry fell into a coma, that means Alice had to have been dead" well, again, maybe. or he just thought she had died. the Creel narrative we see with Victor and Henry is literally about unreliable narrators and perspectives. Victor for sure thought she was dead, but if she actually was... well we can at least question it with the odd details the show includes

if you want to believe that what we're shown on screen is the truth and Alice is dead that's fair enough. however, with the track record the show has it's not an out there assumption to slightly question how correct the characters are in assuming her death

"but everyone said the demon/Victor took his families eyes, you can't survive that" yeah but that's also wrong. back to the Hawkins-newspaper slander. everyone talks about the whole family's eyes being taken when we Know that's not what happened. Henry's eyes are more than fine. Alice's eyes don't look to good but it doesn't look deadly on it's own honestly. Max was still able to communicate clearly with both her eyes injured by Vecna, even El is constantly shown bleeding from her eyes when using her powers. whether Alice's eyes are gone or just injured, it does not appear to be a deadly injury on it's own

so TLDR as it stands now:

Alice Creel is Weird. straight up. her entire purpose in the narrative is questionable. it seems like she's just there to be the cute innocent girl that dies to make it more tragic at first but then we don't even see her die. to top it off, her lack of a death scene actually happens because it's off screen in a gap in the timeline. so she dies in an unlikely circumstance, in an unknown situation, and with the least injuries we've ever seen on one of Henry's victims.

assuming she is dead because of her bleeding dark eyes is fair. but there's enough discrepancies to seriously question what we're looking at

could she be dead? sure. but could she be alive? well, i'm going to say yes. ST loves subverting expectations and misleads. s4 was all about misleads. the Creel story, the story of the lab. all stories that give the viewer a false perception of reality, not by showing lies, but simply by withholding information. and the idea that Alice could have survived her minimal injuries is not unlikely with what we're used to by now

#there's some other things to be said about Alice but this is generally a good overview of what the fuck is going on with her character #there's so much that's just Interesting about her #i've talked a bit about the theories regarding the Creels and Wheelers now lmao #i'll go to the other two angles later on too and go into detail about the 'What is up with Karen Wheeler' part of the theory people bring u #and also the 'What the is up with the narrative connection of the Wheelers and Creels' things but that's a whole can of worms #since i'm not a die hard believer of the theory at all it's kind of funny to go over because there Are some really odd and wild details #that support it but also details that should absolutely disprove it. it's fun #and the Alice thing really just stands on it's own regardless. even if she has absolutely nothing to do with Karen Wheeler #SOMETHING is sure up with her #alice creel #virginia creel #victor creel #henry creel #stranger things #st analysis #creel/wheeler theory

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tal-vez-o-quizas · 2 years ago

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Wait a damn minute…

If Virginia was the one who contacted Dr. Brenner to “help” Henry, does it mean that she was part of the LSD experiments, just like El’s mom, Terry Yves? Was that why she knew who to call? Because she was part of the experiments, then gave birth to Henry, thought the kid was not going to use his powers or something, and called Brenner? Hmm…

#hmm #this just came to me lol #virginia creel #henry creel #martin brenner #dr. brenner #st4 analysis #the creels #st theory #byler tumblr #strange things 4 #my post #my ramblings #tal-vez-o-quizas

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bylerschmyler · 2 years ago

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I'm no native speaker and I can't really read the second word in the underlined passage. Can somebody explain?

#victor creel #creel family #stranger things newspaper #stranger things #st analysis #creel murders #henry creel #alice creel #virginia creel

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byler-alarmist · 2 years ago

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Did we get to see what Virginia Creel did that was so awful?

4.07 “Chapter Seven: The Massacre at Hawkins Lab” STRANGER THINGS

#victor creed #henry creel #virginia creel #stranger things 5 #stranger things #stranger things analysis

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givehimthemedicine · 2 years ago

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Big Analysis Part 2

Powers and Blood

[ Part 1 ]

I have a theory to tell you about Henry that's going to make a LOT of other things click. this post is less neatly segmented by topic and more of a swift erratic drop into insanity so buckle up. Long asf but I promise at least the first/main part is worth it.

warning: very high chance this post contains actual spoilers for major reveals in Stranger Things 5. I'll be tagging subsequent discussion of my main theory here with #st spoilers just in case.

after I establish that, I'll speculate about a variety of subtopics including:

Max waking up

[redacted] has powers

Why Henry wanted El to join him

How Will did the lights

What Will's spidey sense is

Henry's original interest in Will

What I think happened that night in 1959

Let's start with this 4x8 Brenner line: "when One kills, he doesn't simply kill. He consumes. He takes everything from his victims. Everything they are and everything they ever will be. Their memories, their abilities."

Brenner literally just saw crime scene photos of Henry's victims like the rest of us. where is he getting that intel? why would he know that?

"are you forgetting that Brenner saw surveillance of Henry killing all the kids so he knows how his killings worked?"

well sure, Brenner had plenty of footage of it, but what visible indication is there about Henry's murder method that he's "taking abilities" from anyone, unless maybe you could see somehow on the tapes that each murder got easier? his nose didn't even appear to bleed a little bit until the very end.

at the time of the massacre, Henry's only two victims that Brenner would already have the full explanation about were Virginia and Alice, because Brenner spent a while with Henry in the lab and probably forced him to tell all about it. So, taking their memories, alright sure, but what do you mean ABILITIES? did Henry suddenly like, get really good at knitting the moment he killed his mom?

Virginia definitely had powers.

the only way Brenner could be so sure Henry gained all the dead numbers' powers was if he already knew that Henry gained powers from Virginia and Alice in the first place.

Virginia having powers is how she "somehow knew" it was Henry giving them visions. she's where Henry inherited his abilities from in the first place.

just like El got hers from her mom. the powers really are maternally inherited.

MKUltra didn't give Terry Ives powers, it just activated the potential she already had. you can have latent powers and not even know.

anyway, Victor Creel must not have known about his wife's powers any more than he knew about Henry's, which is why he stayed blaming demons.

so Henry kills Virginia, and as he wipes his nose, his narration literally says that he grew more powerful. Henry killed Virginia not only to evade her plans to institutionalize him, but he absorbed her powers.

then Alice. little Alice is too young to have many atrocities under her belt - her only crime is being Virginia Creel's child. I don't know if Henry has much personal resentment toward her, but either way, she inherited those powers just the same as him, and he killed her for them.

It's why he "grows stronger and more powerful" with each kill - it's not just that the mere act of killing any old victim makes his powers stronger - it's that his whole thing is absorbing people. when he kills people who have powers, he adds their powers to his.

eventually Henry does the lab massacre, killing all the guards and orderlies and kids. his backstory would so strongly seem to lead him to be sympathetic to the lab kids, to kill their captors and free them - but to Henry they were just sixteen little power vessels.

moving right along: remember how we all went "oHH" when we found out baby El learned how to do the neck-snap and throwing-guards-into-walls moves from Henry? yeah, that certainly was how he killed those guys!

hey, wouldn't it be fun if we think about how exactly he killed everybody we've seen him kill?

Henry's Murder List

if we try on this idea about Virginia and Alice... would you say it helps a little bit of a pattern emerge?

everyone Henry kills Like That has powers.

everyone.

All of the cursed four have powers. Max has powers.

It's what he means when he calls Max weak in the same breath as calling her brave. he's talking about her powers.

and apparently Billy had powers as well. not through Susan but his own mother, coincidentally. "all the rest of them" we assumed meant Chrissy Fred and Patrick but actually means ALL the rest. all the kids, Virginia, Alice.

oh, is old givehimthemedicine just a reaching delusional Max fan who wants her to have powers? he's just talking about emotional weakness? because she's depressed and Henry "feeds on the weak"?

look in what context the words weakness and strength keep getting used in the lab. it's not emotional or physical. it's about powers.

hmm ok so you're able to write off the lights going blinky because that's a common occurrence for you? at the place where you and your mother live?

I know another kid who used to have electrical problems at his house. it'd be funny if you and he had any other paralle-

MAX MAYFIELD I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE :) :) :)

I don't think we know anything about Patrick or Fred's mothers, but here's a hint about the Cunningham family. Chrissy's mom also feels Henry but attributes it to a demon, like Victor Creel.

gates do indeed open by Henry making a "powerful psychic connection" but Dustin doesn't realize how accurate his wording is - the victims have powers too. Chrissy's major visions both feature her mother screaming at her to "open the door."

doors are what Henry calls gates. he's connecting his powers with Chrissy's to open a gate.

all this time I took this line to mean that El has the specific skill of opening gates, like how Kali has her own unique skill. actually it probably just means Henry wanted El's strength. like, her amount of power.

which brings me to El.

why Henry's favoritism towards Eleven when she was the weakest kid at the lab? was it just because she was the most empathetic of the kids, and he knew she'd offer to help remove the soteria if he was nice to her?

Henry wanted El at full strength because he had plans for her powers. and if any of those other lab kids were weak he would've coached them too, fattening them up for the kill (Hopper/demogorgon/last supper parallel).

so if Henry went to the trouble of coaching El to bring out her strength instead of just killing her when she was weak, that establishes that he gains more strength from killing actively, strongly powered people, and probably only very little from killing latent or weak people like Alice, Chrissy, etc. maybe barely even enough to be worth the hassle of killing them.

right?

no, see. that's why he Vecnas them.

VECNA-ING ISN'T JUST KILLING, IT'S ACTIVATING THEIR POWERS AND THEN MAKING THEM USE THEM REALLY REALLY REALLY HARD. SO HARD THEY DIE. SO HE CAN TAKE THEM.

he's giving the '86 victims traumatic visions and nightmares about the things that he knows causes them the most pain - to make them experience extreme negative emotion, to activate their powers. just like he did by coaching Eleven to harness sad/angry memories. they get nosebleeds, the classic power-use symptom, because of their powers being stirred.

and when he kills them, he's literally power-surging them. think of the way El bleeds worse and feels more drained the harder she uses her powers - except he doesn't stop when they pass out. he forces all the power he can possibly get out of them, past their breaking point, until their bodies literally shatter. this creates a gate, and he also absorbs their maximum powers when they die. maybe like all the powers they would ever have been able to generate, total ("everything they are and everything they ever will be"), all at once.

THAT'S WHAT THE GLOWING LIGHT BULBS THING IS, BOTH SYMBOLICALLY AND LITERALLY. A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF ENERGY BEING CREATED.

that's why the flashlight-shattering surge when Henry kills Patrick. Henry isn't just "making a powerful psychic connection" with random teens - so what? what would that do? - he's making a connection and forcing them to generate extreme levels of power.

that's what causes the huge electricity surge when El closes the gate - she's using her rage montage to generate huge amounts of power, the most we've ever seen her do - AND USING HER POWERS REALLY REALLY HARD MADE HER NOT JUST BLEED WORSE THAN USUAL BUT LEVITATE.

what if Henry didn't levitate Max Chrissy Fred or Patrick. what if their own powers did that?

so Henry probably got even more power out of each '86 victim than El demonstrated when closing the mothergate (because El didn't die).

now realize: Max got power-surged... but Henry got interrupted before he could complete the ritual. she died, yeah, but of a heart attack from the trauma, not as part of the ritual itself.

I don't think Henry had actually taken Max's powers yet.

which means....

I SEE A PATH CLEAR TO MAX HAVING ACTIVE POWERS IN SEASON 5.

and if Max wakes up with amnesia and her powers lost, which is entirely likely given the pattern - don't worry about it. Max has her own NINA: all those letters she wrote. if needbe, El now knows exactly how to train Max back into power, except this time by harnessing love instead of darkness.

now, back to the light bulb thing - when else do we see it?

in the shed when Will gets taken.

Will has powers too. but you knew that :)

Will's made the light bulb in the shed glow with intense emotion too - fear. the bulb didn't burst because he didn't die.

and if the powers are maternally inherited, Joyce has them too. and Jonathan.

this could be Joyce lightbulbing, but I don't think she's experiencing a psychic connection with Henry at this moment, so it might actually be Will again, afraid for Joyce.

while we're on the subject:

Who led Holly and Joyce to Will's room with the lights?

in both the Joyce and Holly scenes, the lights blink their way calmly down the hallway. the way they behave just feels like a gentle, friendly presence - just like they do as a result of Hopper and Joyce walking down the hallway in the UD. it feels human.

but I'm not so sure it's Will. even if we say he was just walking to his room the first time and accidentally led Joyce to danger, he probably would be careful not to do exactly the same thing to Holly.

maybe the calm-blinking is not a result of a friendly or human entity, but of a human with powers.

maybe that was Henry walking down the hallway. Henry blinking the lights, Henry playing the stereo.

Joyce goes back into the house after running away, because that song is a personal thing for Will. but that kind of stereo is battery operated and can't play unless the play button is pressed, which requires the presser to either have telekinesis or physically step in for a sec through a portal. if Will could come through a portal the show would be over, and I don't think his powers are strong enough to push a button telekinetically yet even if he wanted to. but most importantly, he wouldn't want to. the demogorgon was definitely right there, and I refuse to believe Will would lure Joyce back into the same dangerous situation she had just fled. being that Henry can read memories, he would be perfectly aware of the personal significance of Should I Stay Or Should I Go and wouldn't hesitate to use it to deceive Joyce. so why didn't she get got when she went back in there? idk, maybe Will created a diversion or something.

I'm also sure it was Henry mesmerizing Holly with that circle of lights, extremely similar to the light-circle game at the Lab he probably got really good at before Brenner put in the soteria. Will can't do this:

regardless, Holly was lured in there specifically, and the demogorgon almost yoinked her.

so Joyce and Holly were both targeted in season 1, and both when they were alone.

Will was alone, Barb was alone, there were apparently no witnesses to the other four yoinkings, so they were alone. the demogorgon doesn't usually like to appear in front of anybody except those it intends to take.

and can I remind you that every time the demogorgon came into the house to attack Jonathan, it didn't injure him at all. it just knocked him down and drooled on him a bit. it wasn't trying to kill. and can I remind you that Nancy was also there.

the Byers and Wheeler families both have powers.

dream or telepathy...

cruel coincidence or ESP....

if both Byers and Wheelers have powers, why wouldn't the demogorgon burst in while the casserole is cooking and yoink Joyce, Karen, and Holly all together? because then the show leaves us the deniability of "oh well it was after Joyce; Karen and Holly just happened to be there". same as "oh well it was after Jonathan, Nancy just happened to be there". showing us an isolated attempt on Holly makes it clear that Wheeler blood is a target.

Henry keeps targeting entire families except for the fathers.

because he's killing everyone with powers, and he knows the powers are maternally inherited.

Virginia and Alice but not Victor.

all the numbers and not Papa (he's not their father literally but he doesn't have powers and it works as a parallel).

Will, Joyce and Jonathan but not Lonnie. that's why Lonnie coming back was even a plot point - to show him being available for a demogorgon attack yet being the only Byers never to have an encounter with it, and not even believe in it.

Nancy's vision of something terrible happening to Karen, Holly, and Mike, but no mention of Ted.

How did Will do the lights?

Will didn't glow the shed bulb or his bedroom bulb on purpose.

his first intentional show of powers (that we saw):

the imagery of Will's flicker is exactly the same of baby El using her weak powers to flicker a single bulb in the light circle:

"but wait, why are you calling the lightbulb flicker evidence of Will having powers? we see non-powered people affecting light bulbs by touching them in the Upside Down, like the chandelier scene in 4x7."

correct, but. look at the Nancy Steve Robin Eddie contacting the kids through the chandelier lights scene. it glows in the RU when they all touch it, right? so they ALL have powers too? no.

any lights glow when any regular people touch them in the UD. touch them.

but only people with powers can make lights glow without actually touching them. Will can't be touching that light bulb in his bedroom for Joyce because it isn't even there in the UD. he can only be touching the empty glowy space where it is, like Nancy touching the lite brite.

btw notice how all four teens touch that chandelier but NOBODY EXCEPT NANCY ever touches the unplugged lite brite? sus. assuming the other three don't have powers, I suspect it might not have worked for them.

Hopper and Joyce walking down the hall - they didn't touch those Christmas lights. those weren't even there yet in the UD. that's not just human proximity turning them on - that's Joyce specifically.

Will could only have done most of the lights stuff by having powers. some of those Christmas lights blinked too quickly for him to have touched each bulb physically, besides the fact that he was a little guy, not tall enough to reach them. he didn't have to actually touch them, and again he couldn't have anyway because they weren't there yet on Nov 6. he's not strong, but he's activated enough to use his powers consciously now that he's been lightbulb-glowingly scared at least a couple times.

but that's only half the Will-lights question. that still doesn't tell us how he knew they were there in the first place.

Will in the UD has to be seeing glowy areas where the lights are, like how the teens saw the lights when they aimed flashlights at them.

failing Will having a flashlight with him the whole time (boring! spin again), I have three ideas:

theory one: Will's "true sight" enables him to see glimpses of the RU from the UD as well as vice versa and he did in fact see the alphabet without the aid of a light source.

theory two: Joyce has candles lit in the first blinky Christmas lights scene, and again near the alphabet. I wonder if firelight could somehow transcend dimensions.

theory three, which I like best: is it possible that the lights thing works both ways - that Joyce's presence in the RU made the Christmas light spots glow enough in the UD that Will noticed them?

the lite brite scene, as I understand it, doesn't conflict with this idea. it didn't glow in the UD because Dustin, Lucas and Erica were on the other end of it, and I have no specific suspicions that any of them have powers. if any one of them had powers, the lite brite might have glowed in the UD even without the flashlight beam. and then only Nancy touched it in the UD and made it glow in the RU. if I'm right about who has powers and who doesn't, that checks out.

what about the 1x8 scene where Joyce and Jonathan sense each other in the house? if this theory is correct, Jonathan (if not also Nancy) should be causing glowy spots along the ceiling in the UD. but the UD shots are all framed low, maybe intentionally avoiding giving us a good look toward the ceiling, and we would need a good look because these glowy spots would probably be quite subtle. so while this scene does nothing to confirm, I don't think it denies either.

Will would not have seen the alphabet painted on the wall, but if he noticed 26 glowing spots while hearing his mom say things like "talk to me!" he could maybe figure out what was going on, and maybe filled in his own alphabet.

the only hiccup is these two light bulbs I circled. because these would put 28 glowing spots on the wall and how would Will know that Joyce started with "I" on the next line instead of the top right bulb, and then the rest of the alphabet would be thrown off, doubly so at "Q". although if Will is able to make individual bulbs glow selectively just by his intent, maybe Joyce is too, and only the alphabet ones are glowing in the UD.

not perfect, but that's my best try for now, because it would also explain the bedroom light bulb.

What about the rest of the yoinked and flayed?

In season 1, a total of six people got yoinked to the UD by the demogorgon. Will, Barb, and four other randos. did they all have powers too?

well, Barb's nose was bleeding:

(Mrs. Holland I'm onto you too)

and if 2/6 had powers then there's certainly a case for the rest, but that's not a hill I care to die on. like, the elevator guy could've been a convenience yoink, just because he was right there where the demogorgon entered the lab. we know even less about the other victims. I could go either way about it.

as for the flayed, the only family relationship we know about is the Holloways, and since the dad was flayed too that doesn't perfectly follow the not-the-dad pattern (although flayings =/= Vecna'ings and I guess there's no rule preventing Tom Holloway from having his own powers from his own mother).

I'm definitely thinking Billy had powers based on that one Henry line to Max, but I don't think I have an objection to the idea of most of the flayed just being meat. although the flaying process (the tentacle in the mouth) could definitely be a means of both uploading possession and downloading powers. if that's the case, like 1/3 of Hawkins has powers I guess.

so was Nancy's theory about blood attracting the demogorgon right?

Nancy and Jonathan attracted the demogorgon by cutting their hands. Barb bled in the pool. Will wasn't bleeding, but he didn't need to be because I think Henry already knew about him some other way.

that deer was bleeding, Nancy said it had been hit by a car. was that to throw us off, to make us think the demogorgon is just attracted to blood in general? although who's to say it isn't. but it was eating the deer. it didn't yoink Will or Barb (who I think both had powers) to eat.

maybe the demogorgon could smell blood like other predators, but it could also tell regular blood from powers blood, and Henry didn't allow it to eat anyone with powers because he had more important uses for them.

so then if it's literally sniffing out who has powers as it goes along, how did it know about the Wheelers? it tries to yoink Holly episodes before Nancy cuts her hand. I would love to offer you a different explanation than that Karen was there too, and... I can think of a reason an adult woman could be bleeding. do I like it, no, is it possible, I guess.

so what is Henry's original interest in Will?

what if I'm not totally off base about rainbowshipgate? what if the lab, as of 1979, is already watching Will. as a member of staff, Henry could have access to their intel on potential new kids. that way at the time El banishes him to the UD, he already knows about Will. so when he finally gets back into the RU, he makes a beeline for Will.

is it possible that, when he first goes after Will, all Henry wants with Will is his powers like all the rest?

if so, why doesn't he just Vecna him? there has to be a reason he didn't want him dead quite yet. maybe these days Henry is working in partnership with the hive, and while Henry's goal was to harvest Will's powers, the hive also had the goal of spawning some new demogorgons, which requires live host bodies. the yoinked were all handled in ways that served both of those goals.

was Will even meant to survive?

This is gross but, let's talk about that vine in Will's mouth

I FINALLY just got the purpose of this weird ass shot of the alive/dead raccoon in the tunnels. I have never understood what this was supposed to be. It must be dead - it's partly skeletonized - and yet it looks like it's breathing. I never even saw this until I brightened it and slowed it down just now, but: when Hopper nudges it with his foot, vines burst out of the carcass, and the breathing stops.

I'm frankly still not even sure wtf I'm seeing here but it made me realize that the vine in Will's mouth is not just to deposit the slug, but to give him oxygen.

everyone else probably got this years ago but for the benefit of anyone else as slow as me, Hopper's Sara flashback is not merely a visual association, but a very literal one. although the slugging is ultimately a fatal process, Will is intubated and the vine is keeping him alive for the duration.

this is why the language around Will's slug is always "coughing up" and not vomiting. the vine and slug were never in his digestive tract, they were down his trachea. the vine has to be both an ovipositor and a breathing tube. I hate this subject. it seals off the airway, preventing the host from inhaling the UD's toxic spores, because if the host dies too soon it won't be any good for incubating the slug.

when the slug is ready, the vine must retract (so the slug can get out) and without supplemental oxygen, the host (if not already dead like the raccoon) immediately finishes dying of exposure. this must be what happened to Barb and the others. then the slug grows up and in a few days starts eating the host's body, which is why that other dead guy near Barb is a skeleton already.

I've been going crazy trying to figure out why, if Henry has some grand plans for Will right from the beginning, he would use him as a common demogorgon incubator, with no provision appearing to be made for his survival. (I guess Henry could've restarted his heart like El did Max afterwards, but eh). I haven't thought of an answer yet besides: maybe, at this point in time, he didn't?

maybe his original intent was to activate Will, take his powers, repurpose him for incubation, and leave him to die? and then after Will surprises him by making it back to the RU with semi-awakened abilities, Henry realizes he's become a unique asset? (this is a whole other avenue of thought I need to work out more)

so anyway, how could Henry have harvested Will's powers without killing him yet?

there's only one, one-off way we've ever seen Henry steal someone else's powers nonfatally, without Vecna'ing them, and that's El.

when the meat flayer bites El, a chunk of it burrows into her leg and absorbs a little of her blood. if the powers are genetic, they're in the blood, literally. El uses her powers for the last time to tear it out of her leg, and later, when the whole meat flayer arrives at the mall, it stops and bends down to that little chunk and absorbs it. in doing so, it absorbed her powers.

Henry getting her powers, sure fine, but where I'm still unclear is why this is a zero-sum thing and El lost her powers, because it's not like she lost all of her blood. (also does this mean that in the ST universe if you get a blood transfusion you might end up with superpowers?) there's something I'm still missing here, especially with that shot of the blood puddle sizzling on the floor of the grocery store.

anyway, we know Will used his powers in the UD in order to do the lights. and what happens when you use your powers? your nose bleeds. this is one way Henry could get a little of Will's blood without leaving a mark on him so the audience won't guess.

Will must also get amnesia from "dying", thus losing his active powers like baby El. or else it'd be hilarious if he's had powers and known all the answers all this time and hasn't mentioned it.

What is Will's spidey sense?

if Henry doesn't count on Will surviving his slugging, I don't see any motive for him putting soteria or equivalent into his neck before leaving him in the library.

as much as I like the soteria idea, I'm honestly not sure the simplest explanation doesn't cover it - that Will's spidey sense is just fear.

when Will's neck tingled when he was possessed, it was because the Mind Flayer (Henry) was afraid. they told us that very plainly with Mr. Clarke's dialogue.

when normal Will's neck tingles, it's because Will is triggered and rightfully terrified some UD shit is happening again. he describes it to others as feeling frozen with fear, cold, like dropping on a roller coaster. he also mentions feeling like he "can't breathe or talk or do anything" - sounds rather like symptoms of having a vine down your trachea, even if you don't know that's why.

but how does he know to be afraid?

I'm thinking that once Henry makes a connection with you, there's always a scar of that connection there, like how gates leave scars - the connection is basically opening a gate between minds. (remember Henry got Max and El from Max's mind into his by literally hurling/carrying them through that stained glass doorway. Victor breaks down that same door and stumbles into the war vision. doors being gates.)

provided there's a UD/RU gate open, Will can sense when Henry is near as a result of that residual connection, but intense fear may be enough to explain the actual reaction on his neck imo. he may not remember exactly what happened to him in the UD but frankly it'd be super weird if he didn't have colossal anxiety at the slightest hint it could be happening again.

Max is the only other person who's had Henry make a connection with her and lived, so if I'm on the right track, she should also wake up with a spidey sense.

Why Henry originally wanted El to join him

maybe opening gates is a 2 player game no matter how strong you are. if Henry killed every other powers person in the world, he wouldn't be able to open gates because he'd have no one to connect with. he had just coached El into becoming the most powerful kid in the lab, and that combined with their "alliance" put her in an ideal position to be his partner in crime.

maybe the thing about her being "superior" and shaping the world with him was just a lie to gain her cooperation? maybe, but the fact that he brought it up again in 4x9, years later and with nothing to gain, makes me feel like he kinda meant it.

this does very little to reassure me that Henry won't turn out to be El's biological father. he would've been 23-24 at the time Terry was involved with MKUltra, and having both parents involved with lab experimentation would align flawlessly with El's very Firestarter-esque origin story. if Brenner didn't actually orchestrate it, I certainly can't see him frowning on it either if he knew, as I'm sure he would be thrilled at the chance to study a double-powered kid (assuming he didn't already know it was only a maternal thing back then). although I suppose Henry and Terry could also have had a thing without Brenner knowing. I will be thrilled to be proven wrong about this entire paragraph.

Henry's "join me" to Fred and Max was more figurative I guess, in the sense that they'd be joining him in his mind once he absorbed them. I was gonna say maybe he figures one of these depressed bastards hates the world enough to be his player 2, but he didn't really give them a sales pitch or opportunity to agree/disagree before killing them. I do find it interesting he never said "join me" to Chrissy, and we don't know if he said anything to Patrick.

What happened that night in 1959.

the night Henry kills Virginia, the radio turns on to Dream A Little Dream Of Me, which is like Victor's Running Up That Hill, and serves to free him from his vision.

my question is: if Henry wanted to torment Victor, why would he turn on a song that would help him?

he didn't.

Virginia turned on the radio.

oh yeah, forgot to mention! Virginia's powers were active. not all of the weird stuff going on in the Creel House is Henry. in fact it's probably not Henry who started it. the lights flickering while Henry draws with crayons - pretty sure that's Virginia pulling a stunt somewhere in the house.

here are both POVs of the murder for you to refer to.

the radio turns on directly onto DALDOM (hm I don't love that acronym).

Virginia and Victor look at each other in a way that's easy to interpret as two people weirded out about the radio turning on by itself. but Virginia has a weird, almost pleading look. I believe she's just acting confused when she's really the one doing this.

Victor has no idea she has powers. he figures this is demon hijinks and that his wife is just as baffled about it as he is, and she's letting him think so.

just before Victor touches the radio, it starts tuning through different channels. and then the lights go crazy.

the knob starting to channel surf - I think that's Henry changing the channel away from DALDOM. how does Henry know about the RUTH effect? maybe Virginia knows - either from her own experience or Brenner told her - and Henry read her mind. anyway, Henry doesn't want that song playing.

but with the radio trick, Virginia tips her hand. if Henry wasn't already sure she had powers, he is now. (Henry's reaction to the radio is a major difference between the POVs - look at his for this part) he looks at the radio. he looks to his mother. and that is the moment he says that Virginia "left him no choice but to act."

what about this moment during a calm family dinner would necessitate Henry immediately killing his mother?

why would Virginia turn on the radio in front of Henry, knowingly blowing her secret?

it makes me feel like, within a few more seconds, it wouldn't matter to Virginia what Henry knew. it makes me think of the story Henry feeds baby El about how she needs to escape today because they're going to kill her. ingredients of that lie come from his own past.

what if Virginia planned to "kill him" that night - that is, fake his death so she could hand him over to Brenner in exchange for compensation (like she definitely killed that great uncle for his money I'm telling you). all she would have to do is incapacitate Henry and then call in Dr. Brenner under the guise of helping him, and Brenner takes care of the rest. He'd put on his usual fake death routine, perhaps even providing a fake body, same as with Will. (and ultimately this IS what happened because Henry pushed too hard - Victor is satisfied that Henry died)

all Virginia has to do is act scared, and blame for Henry's bizarre "death" would fall in easily with the claims of demonic activity that Victor has already so well established around town (the demon actually being Virginia, who's been doing spooky shit in front of Victor to make him think the house is haunted, establishing the cover well in advance of Henry's planned "death").

but Virginia doesn't know the extent of Henry's abilities. she knows he's been messing with their heads, but maybe she doesn't know about the telekinesis and electricity stuff - which is why she looks genuinely confused when the lights go blinky, because she knows she's not doing that. and then she turns back around with a brief look of oh shit before she zooms up to the ceiling.

congratulations Virginia, you played yourself.

but again, why did she turn on DALDOM? if the plan was for Virginia to do something to Henry, what did Victor need protection for? or was that her special song, too? Their Song <3?

Virginia probably figured that the second Henry realized something was going on, he would put everybody in a trance to stop them. maybe she figured if the protective song was already playing, whatever Henry tried wouldn't work. but she didn't know Henry could change the channel. whoops!

Dream A Little Dream Of Me

here's the part I've been over and over and can't figure out a good explanation for. Henry changes the channel on the radio to stop DALDOM. so then how does hearing that song playing save Victor from his war vision a minute later?

after Henry changes the channel, even while the dial is still moving around, the song persists quietly in the background throughout Virginia's death and Victor's attempts to break down the door. it stops when he enters his war vision, but a minute into that, he takes notice of it again, which is what pulls him back. yet as soon as he comes out of his vision, back into reality where the song SHOULD still be audible if it was really playing, the house is silent.

there is definitely some kind of third party bullshit going on here but I'm stumped.

I don't think I can blame Alice. her powers weren't active - she had to be given nightmares to stir them, same as the cursed four, and I don't even think a little kid is probably in on a family murder plot to begin with. and like, I kinda doubt she Vecna'd herself.

is Virginia not really dead? she looked pretty dead, unless that whole evening was one huge trance Virginia gave the entire family. but Henry's narration so clearly says he intended to kill Virginia and Alice and frame his father, and that he gained powers from killing his mother specifically, so I really kinda don't think it's that. even if Virginia could give him a vision of himself killing her and Alice, I don't think she has the power to also make him believe he planned all that and was pleased with the results. otherwise his recounting should have been more like "I don't know what came over me, but I killed my family and when I realized what I had done I passed out from shock!"

assuming there isn't an extra player lurking around the scene who we don't know about, I'm going to take one stab at it that's absolutely loony.

Victor has to be hearing that song from somewhere other than the radio. and we're hearing it all dreamy and quiet, not like it sounded when it was really on the radio. what if this is perception or time travel shenanigans? what if, somehow, our gang is on the scene - in Victor's mind, or in the Upside Down or some such unseen way - and THEY are playing DALDOM for him, to make sure the timeline unfolds right. because I'm pretty sure I do not hear DALDOM in Henry's version of the scene any time after he changes the channel. that's only something that's going on in Victor's perception.

idk. that's pretty wack and I hope we aren't going full time travel, but I got nothin else right now.

I am suspicious of that scene of Henry turning back the clock though, because we really never saw what results that yielded, if it was supposed to be anything but symbolic. but again Henry has no reason to want to play DALDOM via some time alteration shenanigans when he's the one who didn't want it playing in the first place. maybe if El/Max/Will/Mike/Nancy messes with that particular clock it could affect the timeline..?? I have no idea.

Why aren't all the victims' jaws broken?

@bugsbenefit here comes the part for you

I've seen a couple people question why Alice Creel is the only victim whose jaw isn't broken. she isn't, not when you consider the full list of victims. the majority of the dead lab kids are positioned in such a way that we don't see their faces, but the few whose faces we do see, their mouths are closed like Alice.

jaw breaking is pretty rare: only Virginia, Chrissy, Patrick and Fred.

Virginia is obviously an adult. Chrissy, Patrick and Fred could be 18. Two was the only lab kid who was likely 18 (if he was lab-born immediately after the program started in 1959, he could be up to 19) but the shot of his death is blocked so that his head falls out of view. (if you go frame by frame you can see that his jaw isn't broken, although the shot in question is of a stunt double, so I don't think we're supposed to take real notice).

Max is only 15 and her jaw is spared. it's an age thing.

but this may be less "Henry has a rule about not breaking kids' jaws" and more "the network has a rule about how gruesome you can get with minor actors" although I mean, is the jaw thing really worse than the eyeball thing, idk.

Tristan Spohn (Two), Grace Van Dien (Chrissy) and Logan Riley Bruner (Fred) were 18+ during filming. Myles Truitt (Patrick) is only a couple months older than Sadie Sink and it's possible that he was just barely 18 while filming his scenes while Sadie was still 17 during hers. I think that's probably the more likely explanation tbh.

if anyone can think of an in-universe reason for this, please jump in!

Some misc final thoughts

now it makes sense why Henry makes killing El's friends a distinct step from killing everyone. he means her friends who have powers. he wants to harvest their powers, but El is too strong a protection over them, and he can't get at them until she's out of the way.

still totally possible it's just artistic license, but every instance I can think of of lights selectively working in the Upside Down could be explained by the proximity of one of the people I think has powers. then again, the range really seems to vary, and I can't think of any UD scenes we've ever seen where nobody with powers was present.

there's sooo much imagery of power-people and opening doors (gates). this isn't even all of them, I just got tired of screenshotting.

could Steve have powers too?

he gets an "open the door" of his very own, and the demogorgon appearing in front of him says maybe so. I could go either way on the Russian elevator scene in which they're all talking about opening the elevator door, and both Steve and Dustin press the DOOR OPEN button and nothing happens. I'm not sure about Steve but I am squinting at him suspiciously.

jancy, byler, and elmax nations, congrats on shipping literal power couples. technically milkvans too but 🦴

I am curious why Mike has never really been singled out for monster attack like his sisters have.

Mike-gets-Vecna'd truthers... if the gang can break his trance at the right moment, that would be a very efficient way to activate not just Mike himself, but Will too, because he already has a residual psychic connection open and the sight of Mike getting Vecna'd would surely trigger such strong terror in him.

me @ mike: honey you got a big storm comin.

this concludes part 2 and now I'm off to let my mind reel with the everybody-has-powers fic possibilities

#givehimthemedicine analysis #henry creel #virginia creel #will byers #max mayfield #st theory #mine #givehimthemedicine big analysis #st5 spoilers #how the upside down works #st spoilers #analysis

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wibble-wobbegong · 2 years ago

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lied im thinking about owens again lol

#now that ive recovered #but stav’s new analysis throws some really interesting /neg possibilities out there for what owens and henry’s relationship was #bc of the whole thing of him being against the abuse being forced on kids but still wanting to do science and save people #he spends all of the nina arc reminding el that she has a choice and that they can’t and won’t force her to do anything #not that brenner listens but owens always makes sure she knows she can leave #and he never does it in a guilt trippy way iirc #and bc el is paralleled to henry in so many ways and the fact that owens had a son named peter and henry was called peter in the lab #and owens’ house was pretty secluded #i also find it interesting how we don’t know much about brenner and owens history but we do know there was a level of animosity between them #and owens being the one to do research on the mf and all it just makes me wonder what owens was to henry #and why owens wasn’t in the lab #it’s like each new layer we get i just have even more questions about him #the mf stuff is what really interests me because he takes time to /research/ that unlike he did with everything in s2 by trying to make it #go away #and not even just the particles in the original lab but the stuff in russia too (im like 99% sure he was involved with that)#him having a specific interest in the mf and potential connections to henry on a personal level is something i can’t shake off #like does he somehow know henry’s connected to the mf??#and if so HOW long?? because we don’t see owens being involved with henry after he finds the mf so it would’ve had to have been before #which brings me back to wondering if somehow the mf was involved with the creels #specifically virginia right now just bc i double checked and it turns out she’s the only one with brown eyes unlike the rest of her blue #eyed family (i think. my eyes may be being bad tho) and the darker eyes indicate a possession #and the way henry looks around and the lights flicker when he draws and THEN he starts drawing the spiders in the shape we later see rather #than the original realistic style he did is reminiscent of will in s2 #not that henry was possessed but just the mf’s presence #like obviously the house wasn’t there in the UD but the behavior and some of the shooting styles are reminiscent of s2 will #like over the shoulder shots of what are assumedly nothing and stuff #this is all a very messy throwing of thoughts but yeah. owens is a mystery i wanna crack open so badly #sam owens

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aemiron-main · 2 years ago

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Oh my god I DO have thoughts on this!! It’s definitely interesting to see the visual similarities between Billy’s mom and Karen and how he seeks out an older woman! It’s also interesting to keep in mind that Billy was possessed by Henry via the mindflayer, and Billy’s mom is not only blonde like Karen, but also like Virginia, and has rose motifs on her outfit, just like the stained glass rose at the Creel house & is wearing a flowy robe similar to Virginia’s pink robe, so we see parallels both to Virginia and to Karen when it comes to Billy’s mom. And we do see the dynamic between Billy and his father, especially in terms his father calling him a faggot, which may make Billy feel as if he needs to prove himself to his father in terms of not being a dagger/being attracted to women, which would make sense as to why he emphasizes to his father that he has a date in s2. I can’t say for certain about any actual oedipus complex feelings from Billy towards his mother (I’m like half awake rn as i write this LMAO) but there’s definitely some connections happening between Billy’s mother and Karen and he DOES seem to seek out an older woman as a response to the trauma caused by his father so I can definitely see the connections!

Icky thought of the day

One is Karen wheeler the woman Billy set his sights on and the other is the lady who played his mother...

Maybe I'm going crazy... But now I'm thinking about the Oedipus complex...

Maybe it's just cus they're both white women with blonde hair...

I feel like @aemiron-main would have some very interesting thoughts about this.

#stranger things #byler #st analysis #billy hargrove analysis #virginia creel #st costuming

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henrysglock · 2 years ago

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HAVING THOUGHTS TONIGHT!!

So we know at the beginning of NINA that Brenner being alive is a HUGE surprise to El, who thought she watched him die.

He’s positioned at the top of the stairs, El is at the bottom, and so is Owens. It’s only a reveal to El, and Owens later double crosses Brenner leading to his supposed death.

Unexplained POV from the top of the stairs, looking down on Henry, Alice, and Victor…and later Brenner when he comes to collect Henry.

Who’s a character that’s supposed to be dead, and whose not-dead status would be a huge reveal to Henry, but not to Brenner?

Virginia.

Brenner’s the one at the top of the stairs in NINA and gets double-crossed by the person at the base of the stairs who is aware of their alive-status.

Brenner, double-crossed by Owens.

Who might be at the top of the stairs in the Creel house and gets double-crossed by the person at the base of the stairs who aware of their alive-status?

Virginia, double-crossed by Brenner.

#creel massacre analysis #NINA analysis #henry creel #virginia creel #el hopper #martin brenner #samuel owens #stranger things

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willthewise7 · 1 year ago

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Henry Creel and Patty Newby

As requested by many, I will be detailing in the form of a long analysis the relationship and, at first, the friendship that Henry and Patty had. Again, if you do not wish to have spoilers, please do not read on!

Firstly, Henry was misunderstood by his whole family. Alice said that it was "not Henry" that was in the house, just a random boy. Virginia was terrified of Henry, especially after the incident that occurred in Nevada that contributed to them moving to Hawkins for a fresh start. Finally, his father, Victor, was very oblivious to many different things and was generally absent. On his first day of school he was pretty much called weird and not listened to by any of his classmates. The only person who he connects with is Patty Newby.

They form an instant emotional bond with each other. You can feel the chemistry between the two of them. The dynamic has been likened by many to that of Mike and El when they first met. However, I do tend to disagree with this statement. Mainly, due to the fact that, Henry and Patty seemed to form an instant and deep emotional connection. They both were on the same wavelength. Patty is convinced that Henry is good and keeps reassuring him of that throughout the play. I'll get to his powers further on in this post.

After they first meet at school by the locker room, they form an instant bond. Henry talks about his Spyglass that he has and how he likes Superman. He even does the Superman pose and nerds out to that. Patty finds this funny and mentions how she loves Wonder Woman. They both bond over these topics. Before they leave the locker room they say an awkward goodbye and Henry walks off annoyed with himself that he made himself look weird and awkward in front of Patty.

The next time they meet is at a rehearsal for Joyce's play that she is organising. She is desperate to leave Hawkins and therefore she plans to do so through a scholarship. However, the play has to be successful for that to happen. Anyway, back to the story. As Patty is auditioning for the lead role and starts to sing, Henry jumps in out of nowhere and tries to help her gain confidence. He has a go at singing, not to an amazing ability, and everyone in the audience laughs at him. Again, you can see the bond as Henry is trying to help her and genuinely has feelings for her. They have further moments in the play where Henry helps her to calm down and sing, which leads us to the next scene they have together.

It's church day, where everyone goes and attends. The Creel family arrive and Henry hides in the backroom of the church. At the back he finds Patty doing the same thing. Patty is nervous to go out on stage and Henry tries to calm her down. They give confessions and Henry says how that he is not right and there is something wrong with him, he has some sort of power. Patty again tells Henry that he's good and maybe he can use his powers for good. Following that, Henry creates a vision for them both where the church turns into a dance. Patty has the lead role of singing and is adored by everyone who reacts warmly to her performance. During the vision Henry tries to put his arm around Patty to try and get closer to her, but Patty gets caught up in the positive chaos of the vision. Henry gives her confidence through his powers, demonstrating that he can use them for good purposes. He is not inherently bad.

They spend literally everyday together, they really have a strong bond. Not only was it romantic love, they had a true friendship. Their next crucial scene together was during a date that they had at Melvalds. This is where Henry reveals to Patty that he can read people's minds and see what they're really thinking. He tells Patty that Karen thinks Ted is an idiot and Ted is afraid of Karen. Also, that most of them in the place were pretending to like it, really they were bored. Patty is astonished by this and also laughs. Shortly after this, Patty and Henry share their first kiss together.

Unfortunately, the next part is where things start going downhill for their relationship. It's mainly all because of what was going on with the Mindflayer, plus everyone else not being accepting of them being together. When I say not being accepting, I don't mean due to it being a race issue. It was simply that they were not approved of being together by some. Particularly Brenner who wanted Henry for himself, he saw Patty as an obstacle to controlling Henry. After Henry broke out of the HNL, due to Virginia contacting Brenner to take him there, Brenner wanted to find him again. One way was through finding where Patty was as he knew Henry would go for her.

Anyways, let's get back to the story again. Patty convinces Henry to look for her biological mother and Henry is not keen. He knows this could go wrong if the Mindflayer possessed him. They meet up and go to Henry's attic to start the search her mother. Patty mentions how it is cold in the attic, which Henry says that he likes it cold, which is what Will says in Season 2. He manages to find her performing and singing. Patty is so happy to hear this news. However, like Henry feared, the Mindflayer managed to take him over whilst he was in the void looking for Patty's biological mother. Patty gets frightened when Henry tells her to leave so that she doesn't get hurt. Patty's father, Principal Newby, finds them in the attic. To give context to this, Victor Creel goes to speak to Mr. Newby after he mentions how he should know that Henry and Patty are dating. He therefore decides to come over as he is not happy with this. So Mr. Newby walks into the attic at the wrong time. He tries to get Patty away from Henry which leads to him being attacked and almost killed. He is lifted up into the air. Patty manages to encourage Henry to take back control and beat the Mindflayer by telling him she loves him. Henry manages to break through the barrier and tell her that he loves her too. This stops the situation and saves Patty's father. However, he suffered the consequences of the attack by falling through the attic floor when he was dropped, alongside being blinded and seriously injured from the fall.

When we see Mr. Newby lying on a hospital bed, he suddenly wakes up after being visited by Patty. He tells her that he was attacked by a monster and that he saw it. He goes on to describe how Henry saved him from the monster. He proceeds to draw an image of what the Mindflayer looks like, detailing the shape of a spider looking dark shadowy creature. He hands this drawing over to Patty.

After these events, this is when Virginia sends Henry away to the HNL with Brenner. Later on after Patty learns that Henry did in fact save her father, she returns to the Creel house to try and find Henry. She calls out for him and manages to communicate with him. Henry contacts her through the void and they both are able to speak to each other. Patty tries to convince him that he's still good and she believes in him. She encourages him to return home and to play alongside her, as they auditioned to do so, in Joyce's play. He commits to this and decides to return, leaving the HNL. He rejects Brenner's attempt to try and make him kill another man and leaves the lab. Brenner tries to stop him and suffers the consequences of nearly being killed.

Brenner has a significant influence over Virginia Creel during the play and provides her with medication throughout, in the form of tranquillisers. He convinces her that Henry needs help. He goes to Virginia after Henry breaks out of the lab and tells her that he escaped. Virginia is immediately worried that he is a threat. Brenner reassures her that he can control him but needs to find out where he could be. He suspects that someone is holding Henry back and asks Virginia about this and she tells him. Although before we get to this point, we need to mention the Creel massacre. This occurs before Henry sets off for the play and to see Patty. When he returns home, he reads his family's mind and sees that Virginia has been contacting Brenner and talking about how Henry has never been good and is willing to give him up for good. He does so through seeing her memories. During this moment, Henry is very angry which allows the Mindflayer to take over. During emotions of hate and fear, this is when he loses control. We can visually see Henry having some sort of fit inside his mind. On the stage of the play we see two versions of Henry to demonstrate that he is stuck in his own mind. Meanwhile, the Mindflayer is controlling his physical body and can be seen hovering over the room. After which, Virginia and Alice are killed. Henry then leaves for Hawkins High to see Patty, hoping to get there before Brenner finds him and her.

Before finding Patty, Henry runs into Joyce. who voices her suspicion that Victor is dangerous and was behind the animal killings in Hawkins. It could be argued therefore that this gave Henry the idea to frame his father. Before she explains who she is suspicious about, Henry is worried she is on to him. So the Mindflayer starts briefly coming through until she reveals that it's Victor. Due to this, Henry calms down and he takes back control.

Moving on now, Henry finds Patty on stage but is momentarily joined by Brenner. Brenner attempts to convince Henry that Patty is the thing that's holding him back from his true potential. Patty tries to convince Henry to not listen to what Brenner is saying to him. Brenner also tries convincing Patty that Henry is a killer and is dangerous, that he killed his family. Henry tries dismissing these claims but he starts to get mad and angry at Brenner. Brenner knows what he is doing and is trying to incite this anger to get him to cause a reaction. Brenner is so deranged that he wanted Henry to keep killing to get stronger powers. The Mindflayer therefore starts to takeover and Henry does his best to try and stop it. Unfortunately, it does not work and he loses control. Patty falls from the rafters after the Mindflayer forces him to push her.

Henry basically is now back at the HNL and appears to try and contact Patty through the void. This is where we then see a scene where Patty finds her mother. So she did survive, this is where it's unclear whether she tried to find Henry again or not. Maybe she can help end this story.

#byler #stranger things 5 #henry creel #patty newby #stranger things the first shadow #tfs spoilers #hentty

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