#Toh criticism

[mr-damian-s-power]

Naming names: TOH Basilisks

not naming names but i hate this character design trope

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

bro. he had MAIN CHARACTER energy. not saying he had to be the main character but it's absurd how the writers made such an insanely skilled character with a powerset that is so insanely versatile and expansive (you're saying he can make ANY kind of illusions, look into a person's worst memories and also torture them by forcing them to relive their worst memories??) and then were like "nah he's the black best friend, he's just there for emotional support ?? like ???

[stanlunter]

Dana Terrace on her way to steal everything she sees form other shows instead of making up at least something herself:

[mr-damian-s-power]

Mini-tangent incoming, but this thing always got under my skin a little bit. Crazy fantasy/sci-fi worlds where the entire main cast is almost exclusively Humans or species that looks almost entirely Human but with a very minute difference. I know it's the ultimate first world problem and really just a nitpick at the end of the day, but I'm gonna pick!

Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a main cast that is just all Humans or 'Humans but with pointy ears', but when the world they're in contains a bunch of fantastical and interesting looking species, that's where it gets a bit boring.

Star Wars is the main culprit of this! Hundreds of thousands of unique Alien species, but 90% of main casts are Human or 'Human but green', with maybe a single Droid or Alien to break it up if you're lucky. How about a story where the entire cast is a bunch of crazy Alien designs. Or a ragtag group of runaway Droids from different jobs.

Then, you've got the Owl House! The Demon Realm is a world of all kinds of crazy Demon people, but most of the characters of significance are Witches, which are just Humans with pointy ears. Look at Luz's friendgroup, the Hexsquad. You've got Witch, Witch, Witch and magic Human/Witch hybrid clone who looks exactly like a Witch.

Wouldn't it have been cool if one of the Hexsquad were a quirky looking Demon person? Make Willow or Gus a Demon! Luz's first friend could've been a Demon! Fits her characterisation as a weirdo! Hell, make Amity a Demon! Luz falls in love with a non-Human because she can look past physical differences. It doesn't matter that Amity has 6 arms or 12 eyes or is some weird giant Mantis creature, she's still her Batata!

Any other franchises you feel this applies to? Tell me!

-

Okay, tangent over! You may all go back to your tedious lives!

[daystarvoyage]

Basically made for shipping discourse if not that,

(before changing his sexuality after being villanizing in the pitch bible like the adults in the series to favor fandom.)

Was gonna make a essay post but I’m saving my content on Disneycember YouTube video

so let’s talk tomorrow

tbh I really don't think Raine should have been present for Belos's death.

This is something I've been thinking about more recently but why have Raine there? like writing wise

a lot of people try to claim that the reason for other characters not being present for Belos's death or at least not getting a final scene with him beforehand ( cough Hunter cough )

is that the scene was meant to be about our main three and keeping the focus on just them again like it was at the start of the show.

but that's kinda contradicted by the fact that Raine is also there now I love Raine don't get me wrong but they have no real business being there as they have no real emotional connection to Belos

and they aren't one of our main characters, and also what's with them being a ruthless killer all of a sudden?

does no one else find that out of character? kind caring sensitive shy but baddass and noble Rain is suddenly stomping a dying man to death while gleefully remarking on how satisfying it was.

that just seemed out of left field tbh.

makes perfect sense for Eda's character she was a criminal who lived on the run for ages and existed in a eat or be eaten type of world ( In most cases literally lol )

and same with little King who she raised but that never really seemed to be who Raine was at least not in my opinion.

so it just makes little sense to me tbh writing wise to have Raine present for such an important moment over other characters who it would make more sense for in terms of storytelling

like I said Hunter could have been given a final moment with Belos even if he wasn't present for his death as that would probably mess him up even more

or Darius could have showed up since Belos literally killed his mentor so him taking part in his death would make a bit more sense given the emotional connection.

or Lilith given the emperor used her for ages promising to cure her sister but secretly never planning to

or the collector who Belos lied to and used for countless years and tried to murder even after he forgave him.

or ya know Raine could just not be there and the scene could actually just be about our main three like people try and claim it is

but having them there over other characters who would make way more sense writing wise just feels wrong and kinda annoying tbh.

[let-us-cultivate-our-garden]

I just remembered the "Please. I don't want to see another human life destroyed by this place” line, and honestly did they have scenes of Luz starting to wonder if Belos' had a point and going into the island did destroy her life? If not, they should have had.

No, they did not have Luz ever wonder how the isles affected Belos--except in the storyboards:

Luz still calls him out for trying to destroy the isles and being a hypocrite but there's still that moment of empathy in which she asks point blank: "What do you think they DID to you?!" She briefly contemplates just why someone would go so far to destroy an entire population and what his mindset might be. Unfortunately, this was not included in the final version and Belos' expression is blank instead of pleading.

Then there's this storyboard from For the Future in which Luz, Eda, and King explain to the Collector how people like Amity and Lilith became their friends:

Luz's line about "people being complicated" is in the episode but the entire exchange between her and the Collector is not even though it opens up a lot of interesting ideas and themes. Without it though, the show becomes straight up hypocritical when it states that people are complicated but reduces its villains to generic archetypes and its hero characters as being simply misguided or victims of the villains.

And no, this doesn't mean that the show should have excused Belos' actions or even forgiven him; but they could have and should have acknowledged the complexity of his character by keeping this nuance in and how the characters react to it. By doing so, the message of "people are complicated" becomes clear and strengthens the other characters as well. Luz gets to self-reflect on how she sees other people and learn that even the worst people among us are incredibly complex and have driving forces that are uncomfortably close to our own, thus making it much harder to demonize them. The Collector--instead of being a Giant Star Baby--keeps both his childlike bluntness and keen observational skills that he had in season 2, thus fleshing out the character instead of devolving him.

Regrettably, that nuance is absent from the show and we have a rather black-and-white narrative about Good vs. Evil; people are only ever really "bad" if someone tricked them or if there was a misunderstanding and all the Real Bad People are just selfish jerks who are power hungry and controlling.

This is not compelling storytelling; this is a tale as old as time. And the worst part is that there was a great story in The Owl House but it was left in the rough drafts.

Storyboards by Yasmin Khudari and King Pecora

[flower-boi16]

I Don’t Really Like How Season 3 Handles Hunter’s Trauma of Losing FlapJack

Thanks to Them shows the grand finale of Hunter’s whole character arc throughout the series; he’s healed from his past trauma and abuse he underwent from Belos, and finally stood up to Belos cuts him out from his life. It’s a solid ending to his arc…until you remember that Hunter now has some brand new trauma of his abuser coming back, being possessed by that abuser, and then having that abuser kill his best friend while possessing him meaning that he was essentially forced to watch himself kill his best friend.

And this…never gets addressed. Ok, that’s a bit of a lie, For the Future tries to resolve this but execution is…eh. Hunter spends a lot of For the Future grieving over what happened with FlapJack, with him being more dead set to catch up to Belos then ever. The resolution that the episode tries to give to this is Hunter gaining new powers that he got due to FlapJack’s sacrifice.

Now, I do like what this represents, as it represents that FlapJack will always be with Hunter deep down even when he’s gone, it’s pretty sweet. But….at the same time, it’s also still fairly rushed and doesn’t really fully resolves or addresses Hunter’s grief. We never get to see Hunter come to terms with what happened, his grief still goes unaddressed.

Watching and Dreaming further continues to gloss over Hunter’s grief over what happened and at that point it doesn’t really get much of a resolution, it’s, again, entirely glossed over and not really resolved. The show effectively added in new trauma for Hunter at the last minute in the final season when it didn’t have much time to really address it, so now we’re supposed to just assume that Hunter came to terms with it off screen which doesn’t feel particularly satisfying to me.

I don’t think FlapJack’s death was pointless and it did serve a purpose, but it seemed that writers didn’t have much time to address Hunter’s grief and the resolution we got felt…very underwhelming. Season 3’s ending for Hunter was decent overall but when it came to this aspect I think they kinda fumbled the bag.

[antispopausandstuff]

this might be a hot take, but it feels like a light smack on the face to have Lilith as aroace rep and not include Willow.

now, i have no issue with Lilith being aroace. i love Lilith and there's no actual problem with her being labeled as such.

but in comparison to Willow, who hasn't shown true romantic interest or chemistry with anyone until s2-s3 kinda pushed it in there, i do feel a little bit salty as a questioning arospec person.

i don't particularly understand why there has to be one of every type, when the 'romance' between Willow and Hunter negatively affected both of their arcs and sidelined their true character as a whole. to only have Lilith as the aroace character, when she was an antagonist previously, can possibly send a weird message.

maybe none of this really matters and i'm just nitpicking, but i really would've loved to have Willow as the aroace rep too. there doesn't have to be one way or another.

[kiwisandpearls]

the statements “this piece of media was made for kids, it’s not that serious” and “a piece of media being made for kids does not exempt it from criticism” can and should coexist.

[stemms]

While I enjoy The Owl House for its captivating plot, fascinating characters, accurate and respectful representation of the LGBTQIA+ community, and strong character development, I find that the ending leaves something to be desired. Specifically, I would like to address Belos’ death. His character is fascinating, complex, and significant to the narrative, so I feel that, although he obviously deserved to face the consequences of his actions, his death should have been treated with more gravity and significance rather than mockery.

To me, Belos has always been an example of a well-crafted, complex villain, marked by internal conflicts, fears masked by a stern façade, regrets, and a flawed worldview. His delusional belief that his monstrous actions serve a noble purpose sets him apart from the typical villain, whose sole motivation is an insatiable desire for power and chaos.

Even the smallest glimpses into Belos' backstory reveal his complexity, making him… painfully human despite his desperate attempts to project an image of divinity and power. While his actions are undeniably inhumane — marked by obsession and unwarranted hatred toward witches — his backstory exposes a vulnerable, sobbing child, and a young man consumed by envy and fear of abandonment by his brother. This perspective shifts him from a mere cruel Emperor driven by a thirst for power, to a mere human full of insecurities.

While Belos’ past doesn't excuse his horrific actions, it sheds light on his motivations and twisted worldview, which would remain opaque without this context. Exploring more of his backstory would allow us to uncover vital details about the way his past influenced his future life, his mission to spread the “Titan’s Will” across the Boiling Isles, and so much more.

If only Belos’ vulnerable, human side had been explored more deeply, we could have seen the stark contrast between his imposing exterior and his inner loneliness and misery in more detail. This exploration would suggest that his public persona wasn’t just manipulation to gain the witches’ trust, but also the act of self-deception in an attempt to convince himself that his actions were for the greater good, while also trying to fill the void within him.

This being said, the scene of Belos’ death was quite the opposite, as it was treated as nothing more than a comic relief, completely undermining his character journey. After his entire body melted, he was casually stepped on by Luz and her friends, which felt jarring given the weight of his character, and was simply unnecessary. I believe that even if Belos’ death stayed the exact same, but the last part was removed, it would’ve been so much more tolerable.

[psychicbarbarianinfluencer]

Just for fun what would you say is your most unpopular toh opinion that a good chunk of the fandom seems to disagree with you on?

So basically an opinion that normally makes other toh fans react to you like this lol.

[autistic-ben-tennyson]

Lumity: Controversial Opinion

I have a lot of mixed feelings regarding Lumity. As a young queer, it was important for me and my development. It did a lot for queer representation and the fact that Luz is human means people can’t deny the queerness of it like some tried to do with Ruby and Sapphire by claiming they were aliens so it didn’t count. It is a cute sapphic romance and was very groundbreaking.

That said, it’s not the perfect romance it’s stans make it out to be. In many ways, it’s a wish fulfillment story, Luz gets to be with the rich, popular girl and be the hero of the Boiling Isles. They had some problems that they never really resolved. Luz kept lying and keeping secrets even after promising to be more open. On Amity’s end, her bullying in season 1 was sort of retconned to her parents and Boscha forcing her to act that way when there were several instances of her being nasty to Luz or Willow for no reason. Them breaking up or even taking a break would have taught both consequences. Amity’s bullying did play a role in Luz keeping secrets and she never got called out for it and was woobified.

Hardcore fans may dislike this but them breaking up wouldn’t be the end of the world. It would teach queer youth that queer relationships can have their own issues and breakups like cishet romance and you have to accept that because sapphic relationships are not inherently more pure than het ones. I may be biased towards Lunter but the latter ending up together would show that M/F couples can be queer as well and that it’s not “gay erasure” for a bi woman to end up with a bi man. Again, it was a groundbreaking ship for representation but isn’t the perfect romance and not everyone who dislikes it is a homophobic “parents rights” activist.

[tentacledsnakelover]

The Double Standard about the Titan

One thing I have noticed about the show and the fandom is that there seems to be a bit of a disconnect (for lack of a better term) between how the Titan is viewed as a holy figure.

The Boiling Isles is built atop the Titan's corpse, but the only one who put the Titan up as some sort of higher power was Belos. We don't see anybody else really worship the Titan during Belos' reign, and we saw in the Savage Ages that no one really worshipped the Titan either.

When we meet the Titan's spirit in the finale, it is clear he is a flawed being, not some perfect, all knowing diety. But when Luz is brought back with Titan powers, people in the fandom act like she is a (demi) goddess, and that Amity will be swooning over her 'goddess' and that Luz is the show's equivalent of Christ. King is the Titan's son, but his arc was about realizing he doesn't need to be treated as special to be happy. Luz had Titan powers, but she was still just Luz.

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

i really wish eda had retained some of her initial morally grey edge in the later seasons. it feels like she was this cool rebellious and somewhat selfish character in the first season and then she just becomes the resident mom.

i like that she got fleshed out more and we got to see her backstory and see her develop relationships with new characters, i just wish they hadn’t erased all of her initial characterization for that. she basically becomes an archetypical hero, just with some added sass.

i feel like gravity falls strikes a good balance in this trope with stan pines. he starts off as a money-minded con artist and later gets fleshed out into a more complex character, while still being the same money-minded con artist.

we see his backstory, we see him develop his relationship with ford, the kids and even soos and wendy, but he isn’t reduced to just a parental figure. he is still hilariously cunning and greedy, and i love him for that.

idk maybe i just like morally grey bastards too much lol. i really liked eda in the beginning because she was kind of like the female version of stan, but still unique as a character. and i hate that by the end of the series, she became somewhat flanderized. and fans only talk about her in the context of her being a mom to all the younger characters, or in regards to her relationship with raine.

[polygnosticu]

Hi! l saw your comments in a post you were saying something like how Luz abandoned the others. l was wondering your thoughts on this and especially about the relationship between Lumity.

My thoughts are that Luz isn't the character that her stans want her to be. She's not a good person.

In Thanks to Them Luz was shown being prepared to abandon her Hexside friends as well as the entire Demon Realm to their fates at the hands of Belos and the Collector. She had made this decision without discussing it with any of them with the intention of not telling them until the last possible second when they couldn't do anything about it. The only thing that saved everybody was Camila's intervention.

This was an unconscionable act of cruelty on Luz' part and proves a hypothesis I had about Luz from her first appearance. Luz never took the Boiling Isles and the people who live there seriously. She treated the place like her own personal fantasyland and the people who lived there as NPCs in her self insert fan fic. We can see this in how Luz based all of her decisions there in reference to Azura. Her only interest in Amity was how she served as Hecate to her Azura and wanted to befriend her on that basis rather than learn anything about her as a person.

She interfered with Willow's life and violated her boundaries trying to fit Willow into her Azura fantasy model. In both Understanding Willow and Wing it Like Witches Willow asked Luz not to interfere with her decisions on how she handled her problems. In both cases Luz ignored Willow in favor of her Azura fantasy and Willow suffered as a result. After Luz did this a second time Willow walked away from the friendship. Luz had to work her butt off to earn back Willow's trust and friendship.

Luz was fine with playing in the Boiling Isles as long as it was fun and things were going her way. When Belos and the Collector showed up and things started getting serious and people started getting hurt Luz turned her back on the place and ran. She was prepared to abandon the entire enterprise because she never saw the Boiling Isles as a real place with real people and real problems.

Lumity isn't a relationship. It's a mutual crush between two fourteen year old children. They are not in love with each other because they are both too young and too emotionally damaged to even know what that means. Prior to Lumity neither Luz nor Amity has even had a successful friendship with anyone much less a full romantic commitment yet stans want to see Lumity as this perfect relationship that will last the two of them to the grave.

Luz is crushing on Amity and does not take her seriously. Luz is fine with the fun parts of crushing on Amity but when things get serious Luz is actively cruel to Amity. Luz lies to Amity repeatedly even though Amity knows Luz is lying to her and has asked her to stop. Luz didn't stop. Luz emotionally abandons Amity and seeks comfort in Hunter in whom she confides her secrets rather than Amity. In real life this behavior would be considered emotional abuse.

Amity has become codependent on Luz. Amity has given up every other aspect of her life to become Luz' awesome girlfriend. Amity no longer even challenges Luz the way she did in Lost in Language and Adventures in the Elements. When Eda did these things to Raine, Raine walked away from the relationship. Raine loved Eda but wouldn't tolerate Eda lying to them. Willow walked away from Luz when Luz violated her boundaries. Twice. Amity doesn't walk away from Luz despite being obviously hurt by Luz' lies. She is in a complete state of codependency on Luz. We've seen that other people don't tolerate this behavior from Luz. Amity does.

So these are my thoughts. If you have any questions or thoughts of your own to contribute, by all means feel free.

[mr-damian-s-power]

Going on from my other post about how I feel the 'Aliens that are Humans but slightly different' and 'world of cool aliens designs but the main character is a Human' trends are lazy and boring, here's another thing I just remembered relating to it.

When someone defends it with 'it's for relatability'.

What are you trying to say? That you can't relate to someone if you don't look exactly like them? What kinda dumb bollocks is that? Maybe I just don't get it, being a filthy whiteman, but I find that idea stupid.

If you think I can't relate to the Alien who looks like a sentient pile of orange sludge, or that funky little monster with the body of a Chicken and the head of a Goblin, then maybe be a better writer. Nope, I can only relate to English Human males who have autism, apparently.

What, are we supposed to relate to characters based on skin colour and race? You sure you wanna go down that road, chief?