#Timeless Meta

[somekindofflowergirl]

Timeless, Hollywoodland, and The Philadelphia Story

I found this old meta I’ve had in my Google docs for years but I don’t believe I’ve ever posted anything about it, since I originally intended to use the idea in a fic. Since that isn’t happening, even though it’s been years and I doubt anyone is out here writing or reading Timeless meta anymore, here you go. Obviously spoilers for both.

Most Garcy fans will groan if I suggest we take a look at Hollywoodland, but considering a certain admittedly fantastic dress:

…and a certain cut scene involving a pool, it’s interesting to consider through the lens of The Philadelphia Story, of which the dress and pool scene are iconic elements. Here is a still from the movie:

Look familiar? This is also poolside.

The Philadelphia Story revolves around Tracy Lord (Katherine Hepburn), a wealthy socialite who is preparing to marry her fiance, George (who matters as little as Lucy’s quirk-of-the-timeline-fiancé Noah in Timeless but manages to be far less likable) in a matter of days. The head of Spy Magazine assigns Macaulay Connor (Jimmy Stewart, oddly nicknamed “Mike”) and his photographer, Liz, to go to the wedding and get the story posing as friends of her expatriate brother, with an actual friend of his as their in: C.K. Dexter Haven (Cary Grant). Dexter also happens to be Tracy’s first husband. They divorced years prior due to his alcoholism—including a nasty incident of him shoving her down—and her criticism of him. Dexter originally seems to be doing this out of spite, but we quickly learn it’s actually to keep the magazine from releasing a bigger scoop about Tracy’s father’s affair and estrangement from her mother, which have devastated Tracy. The rest of the film is about Tracy’s entanglement with all these men.

(Sidenote: there are some very old-fashioned diatribes and comments about the nature of women and marriage and the shoving I found very hard to overlook, but that’s not the point of this post. Just heads up if you do ever watch it.)

On the eve of Tracy’s wedding to George, she dons The Dress to attend a ball in their honor. She gets drunk for only the second time in her life, and she and a similarly drunk Mike spend time together. They mainly talk drunk nonsense, drive drunk, and Mike sings Over the Rainbow. They have a grand time, end up kissing, and jump in the pool for a midnight swim.

Similarly, in Hollywoodland, Lucy and Wyatt share a sweet poolside conversation while she wears The Dress to a Hedy Lamarr party, they kiss, and they would have jumped in the pool if not for wildfire filming issues. They spend the night together, scar Rufus the next morning, then head back to the present. Wyatt soon receives a text from his supposedly dead wife. He takes off, without telling anyone why, and Wyatt spends the rest of the season trying to win back Jessica permanently while still having feelings for Lucy. In the “movie” (reminder: Christmas isn’t canon), Jessica is a pure evil Rittenhouse operative who lied about being pregnant, is killed, and Lucy and Wyatt are hastily shoved back together without fixing the issues between them on-screen. TPTB have claimed that their pairing was always endgame and the reunion would have happened anyway–albeit less swiftly and unrealistically–but they were Made For Each Other, loved each other all along, blah blah blah.

Which brings us back to The Philadelphia Story. The scene at the pool between Tracy and Mike is iconic for a reason. Mike is very “eat the rich” and she calls him out for being an intellectual snob, he tells her she’s wonderful and that the other men didn’t know what they were talking about, and their kiss is incredibly cinematic. It’s truly romantic…

In the moment.

For that moment, that one night, the audience can root for this couple. Mike is saying what Tracy needs to hear, and she’s enjoying letting herself fail by getting drunk and doing the unexpected. It’s sweet.

But it isn’t the endgame. No one means it to be.

After the multiple confrontations that arise out of the pool situation, Tracy breaks off with George just before the wedding. Mike asks Tracy to marry him and she turns him down. Liz loves him, and while he and Tracy like each other as friends, they would both be unhappy long-term. They live very different lives and have different values. And they’re not actually in love.

I don’t honestly believe this was intentional as foreshadowing that Lyatt may not be endgame so much as Abigail Spencer really wanting to wear The Dress. But even as a subconscious accidental parallel, it’s decent. Mike is nice and he and Tracy get along fairly well, but he’s better suited to Liz, who has stood by and loved him for years while waiting for him to mature enough for forever with her. Tracy, having realized that she doesn’t want the picture-perfect (on the outside) life she envisioned—and having seen that Dexter, now sober and much changed, is not the man he was when he hurt her—she forgives Dexter for the pain of their past. He lets go of it all as well and they remarry, this time making it down the aisle rather than eloping as they did before.

And as a book I adore (Love Walked In by Marisa de los Santos) says: “Jimmy Stewart is always and indisputably the best man in the world, unless Cary Grant should happen to show up.”

[galahadwilder]

A Theory About the Doctor’s Species of Origin

So usually in NuWho, whenever anyone asks if they have a name other than “The Doctor” or “Doctor,” the Doctor replies something along the lines of “nope, just the Doctor.” However, Fifteen has broken that pattern: when Ruby asked him about that, he responded that “the species that took me in uses titles like [rattles off a bunch]. Use ‘The Doctor’ for a thousand years and that becomes your name.”

The thing about RTD’s writing is that you can sometimes tell when something has extra emphasis, like the thing about the Bees in Donna’s season. And the Doctor repeats this bit of information twice, once completely devoid of context, making absolutely certain that you understand that “Time Lords use titles.”

Who else uses titles? Specifically, who in this season is big on titles?

Well, the Pantheon.

The Toymaker. The Maestro.

Hell, in Classic Who, the Toymaker was originally supposed to be part of the Doctor’s as-yet-unnamed species before Michael Gough died and became unable to reprise the role. The Maestro even gives the Doctor another title! “The Lord Temporal.”

The Toymaker uses doors to step from one end of history to another. The Maestro uses pianos. In both cases, they’re bigger on the inside—doors to extradimensional spaces. What if it wasn’t just Regeneration the Time Lords engineered from the Timeless Child—what if it was all of their tech? What if that’s why nobody can reproduce TARDISes properly—it’s not science, it’s play?

Last bit of evidence: the Maestro is aware of the background music and the fourth wall. They open the episode by playing the Doctor Who theme, intentionally triggering the opening credits. The Doctor is the only other character so far who’s proven to be aware of the fourth wall (the Beethoven’s Fifth rant in Before the Flood, for example), to the point that he even mentions during The Devil’s Chord that he thought the background music was non-diegetic—as in, he can hear the background music. He knows he’s in a show.

The Doctor, the Lord Temporal, might very well be one of the Pantheon.

[titanicnerd-blog]

Love the eyebrow thing! It just shows how connected they already are! Lucy knows Flynn's nature, and realizes that it might help them out in this situation.. which it does.

(in which Lucy and Garcia communicate via eyebrows) – 2.04

[causalityparadoxes]

Interesting that the Doctor says his adopted family is the reason he uses a title. Except thats not quite true is it?

Sure they are stuffy aristocrats who love ranks and titles but Tecteun, Rassilon, Borusa, Romana, Pandad, Andred, Rodan, Darkel, Flavia, and practically every other non-renegade timelord (and even some renegades like Drax) still use regular (if not human) names.

But you know who does often use titles? THE GODS. Those from before or beyond the universe's constraints. The Toymaker, The Guardians, The Maestro, The Trickster, The The Beast, The One Who Waits, The Gods of Ragnarok, The Entity, etc. Even those with 'names' often have descriptive ones like Time or Swarm.

Is it really the Doctor's adopted family that made them identify with titles? Or is it perhaps traces of their 'birth family' peaking through?

More than anything I just want to know if RTD is going anywhere with this. Did he just need a quick way to get new audiences on board with calling the main character the Doctor? Or does it mean something.

[dandelionjack]

the ninth doctor trusted rose enough to believe she would stay with him after his face changed. and twelve took some convincing but towards the end of deep breath accepted that clara would stay by his side no matter how old he looked. but thirteen was so used to losing people. her previous self had loved clara and lost her, he had looked after bill and failed to save her, he had tried to redeem missy and (to his knowledge) lost that cause too. no wonder she wouldn’t trust yaz to stay for her fourteenth face. no wonder she believed she ‘had to do this next part alone’. she had grown quietly distant with the new knowledge that she was no longer even an ordinary gallifreyan, not something of this universe, but outside of it, alien even to the aliens. isolated and inaccessible, standing on an invisible pedestal her ancestors placed her on — a pedestal that more resembled a cage. glass walls on all sides like the forced regeneration chamber. thin glass wall between her and yaz now, transparent but too solid to break through. harder than azbantium when there’s no solid footing to stand on.

of course yaz would run when she saw her new self. of course she would leave. companions would never stay now, they would never fully understand. when thirteen said that she would need to do ‘this next part’ alone, by ‘next part’ she meant ‘the rest of her (potentially eternal) life’. it’s the classic gambit: push the one you love away before they get the chance to reject you. because they always will, now. either that or they die in horrible circumstances. better to flee like you’ve always done.

this is why the bigeneration was a narrative necessity, why the giggle was the perfect vision of a positive finale. the original version of the doctor gets to settle down with people that he won’t lose. people that he won’t turn away from. people whose hearts he won’t inevitably break. he’s sitting there in the back yard and he’s not going anywhere…

…yet somewhere out there in sheffield lives a police officer named yazmin khan. she’s not all sunshine and rainbows — all cops are bastards, after all. sometimes she takes her nameless rage out on a shoplifting suspect. sometimes she hands a parking ticket to a kid that didn’t deserve it. and sometimes she does genuine good for the community, sometimes she goes to the club and dances with strangers, sometimes she sits on the sofa and watches a documentary about space exploration and laughs at the painful inaccuracies. and many miles south, the doctor spends time with his family, but he’ll never get the courage to visit her. because she’d want to run away with him again. and he could never give her that, not anymore. anything but running.

yazmin khan loved the universe in the eyes of her doctor. oh, that doctor in the garden? the stay-at-home-doctor? he’s brilliant, but he would never be enough for her. his presence would never replace the cosmic vistas and myriads of stars thirteen gave her. and she’s never coming back

[humanstein]

I can't help but draw a connection between The Dot deciding the people of Finetime needed to die and The Master learning about the Timeless Child from the Matrix and deciding that the people of Gallifrey needed to die.

Domed cities full of the safe and entitled being executed systematically.

[intuitive-revelations]

I don't know if I'm excited or frustrated at the 'future children' angle for Susan's origin. On one hand... I'm very interested in the possible links to the likes of Miranda, the Other etc.

On the other hand... ok confession time: This may make me a minority in the fandom, but I actually really dislike the 80s-90s retcons of Susan's origin. (Birth of a Renegade, Lungbarrow etc.)

I kinda just like her and the Doctor being some of the last surviving members of what was once a family on Gallifrey. I find the mystery and tragedy of what happened on Gallifrey, with implied student uprisings and political assassinations, far more intriguing than any twists saying "actually she's not really his granddaughter". Fortunately, some things can be canonwelded into that (eg. Susan really could be also related to the president / descended from Rassilon), but stuff that actually gives her an origin elsewhere is always a pain.

Idk. I just see once being a parent (and losing it all tragically) as such a crucial part of the Doctor's background and Susan fits very well into that as far as I'm concerned. Anything disconnecting her from that, or worse erasing it completely, ultimately damages what I find to be one of the most compelling things about the Doctor and Susan. :/

The few posts I've already seen talking about this suggests this is an unpopular opinion, but I'd be interested to know what people think, and if they agree or disagree...

[aletterinthenameofsanity]

Empire of Death and Adoption: A RANT

You know what? I'm not over it. I don't think I'm ever gonna be over it.

I (semi-jokingly) said after Yaz was ignored and the complicated relationship Thirteen had with gender was boiled down and ignored to two or three flippant mentions of it in The Star Beast where the Doctor seemed to have NO understanding of the complexities of gender that it seemed that Rusty had not seen Thirteen's era. That he had read a summary of events and rolled with it.

Now, after the way that adoption was treated in Empire Death, I'm dead fucking certain that he didn't. And that if he did, he didn't understand the emotional core of those stories.

As someone who is adopted, I'm gonna be honest. I'm pissed with the way that it was handled in Empire of Death after how it was handled in the Timeless Child arc. Now, I'm not some consummate Timeless Child defender or anything, I still have mixed feelings about the twist, but the way that it was handled by the Doctor I really did like. The way that the Doctor had questions and wanted to know the truth about herself and was furious that she had been lied to but that after thinking about it and figuring herself out a bit, put aside the fob watch with her memories aside because what mattered, what had always mattered, was what she made of herself. What the Doctor had always made of themself, the family that they built, patchwork and broken but still so desperately, fiercely loved.

And then in Empire of Death it's all about Ruby finding her "real mom." Not her bio mom. Her real mom. And it fucking spat in the face of not just the Timeless Child arc but every found family theme echoed throughout Doctor Who before it. Sarah Jane telling the Doctor that he had the biggest family in the world. The Doctor's "fam." Every moment where the Doctor's family became these humans and their short, beautiful lives and the family that they made for themself.

You can have multiple real parents. I have an adoptive parent and step-parents and a mom who both birthed and raised me and all of these people are real parents. All of them matter because they all make me me.

Get the fuck out of here with that reductive "real parent is bio parent" bullshit, AND CALLING CARLA HER FOSTER MUM INSTEAD OF HER ADOPTIVE MOM EVEN THOUGH SHE IS ADOPTED, ESPECIALLY SINCE IT REDUCES HER BLACK ADOPTIVE MOTHER BENEATH HER WHITE BIOLOGICAL MOTHER, TELL ME YOU DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE THEMES OF THE DOT AND BUBBLE EPISODE YOU SAID YOU CARED ABOUT RUSTY.

[marlinspirkhall]

The society in Dot and Bubble as a mirror to Gallifrey. They could have saved themselves from destruction, but they were too invested in saving a 'utopian' society built on colonisation. As a mirror of The Doctor's incredibly one-sided relationship with the society which literally took everything from them and then remade him in their image. They spent 12 incarnations as a white man, learned hard truths about themselves the first time they were a woman and now he's experiencing racism (again) but they have no memory of the previous times. I need to go to sleep.but my god, what a way to take the baton that was handed to you and run with it

[fumifooms]

Dandan x Asivia

Dubbed dansivia. Confused as to who either of these are? Here’s a Dandan comp and Asivia wise this post is close enough for now

There is a brave visionary on ao3 and they’re so right

Ok first of all let’s address the theory:

Dandan is indeed the only Laios party member not pictured here (besides Chilchuck himself but we saw he didn’t like her which would contradict this anyways). I keep wanting to add "that we know of" or some other caveat but honestly not even no, it’s never implied or mentioned they had yet another party member and that makes sense since we saw the party’s inception right up to its current party composition.

… So… Mystery solved right out of the gate? I dunno, it feels weird to me to claim Dandan hates Laios, but if he kept it under wraps enough or reasoned with himself about it I could see it. Laios and Dandan were coworkers from their gold peeling days, and so when Laios left to try a career in dungeon diving Dandan joined him.

They seem very standard coworkers that get along well enough to me, far from skulls emoji energy, but yeah there is a case to be made on both overt strong dislike and repressed strong dislike ends. But maybe the true beef started after he left the party even, especially if he fancies Asivia and kept up with the party’s drama that went down with her, though the chart does imply it was the work dynamic while he was still in the party because of context. But, believing that Dandan likes her and Asivia considered getting with him like the other men of the party, Asivia would have literally sidelined Dandan to pursue Laios. And Laios doesn’t even realize her attempts at seduction? Ok yeah the hate is plausible nvm. Also we can keep in mind that this is Chilchuck’s chart and he could have more insight on Dandan’s feelings than the average coworker since he’s his friend. It def fleshes him more out with implications. He’s professional he keeps unnecessary shit to himself. It’d be weird to me if the relationship chart was made without Kui thinking it through, or retconning it, it is the canon we get so it’s interesting to ponder. Kui giving us secret romantic drama for free <3

Speaking of what’s not free. Ok maybe Dan does dislike Laios, do business introductions really cost money… I mean I respect the hustle but. So Dandan is heavily implied to be the one to introduce Asivia to the party. The only other mage was Marcille and well we know how that went. "A real cutie". Yeah. I bet. 👀

This is the most interesting dansivia part to me, they did meet previously to the party, both doing what they do best, networking. Dan helped Asivia find a job, how did they meet and how did that go? What if she had an infamous reputation already, how much did they get acquainted… There’s a lot of leeway for fun here

Gorgeous hustling but lazy manipulator that seeks a fortunate husband x slight womanizer hustling & hardworking poor guy that’s been around in business for too long to be played… Both work a lot but like to take it easy when they can. Tavern flirtations and having met while networking and "I can hook you with a job" (staring and smiling too much) and "Oh Dandan, you’re so capable and knowledgeable about the Island, could you help me out~"

Manipulator hustler seductress x laidback hustler flirt… Social butterflies, streets smarts in different yet similar ways… Observant x observant………. She’s very harsh and drops people/her damsel act at the first second she can’t get something out of it anymore and I think he’d be so into that. Dandan liking strongminded women. Women who kinda play dirty. Makes him respect them and want to pursue them help…

And like, takes on Asivia differ nowadays but I do need her to mean this shit for this, this is what she's unabashedly about. She is just a woman trying to make it in this world but working people’s the name of her game. Whatever reason you give her, she was taking advantage of Laios and trying to get a marriage with any decent profitable guy she could. She knows what she’s doing and she doesn’t look the least bit remorseful. A girl who knows what she wants and chases it, rawr ⬅️ Dandan voice

They both fall for each other but neither can admit it because they know it’s just temporary, she’ll go look for a well-off tallman husband eventually. Messy situationship go. Can they even have a good ending together. It’s all only ever nice in the present moments… She’ll leave he can’t offer her anything but himself and a very humble lifestyle, she’ll leave she can’t settle for that she won’t, he knows that and it’s part of why he liked her in the first place. Oughhhhh

Ohhh to be underdogs, settling for a humble life & being content with that vs unapologetically ambitious and chases that life and comfort she seeks, which in turn makes him admire her…….. But even if she inspires him to chase what he wants, she can’t give it to him…………..

Putting this on blast bc they’re great thoughts

Because I’m me I’m trying to make them reach a happy long term ending together and it’s not working… Which is more fun tbh. I shall ponder this puzzle…

Casanova Dandan is so important to me now. Chilchuck’s in a separation slump & faithfulness oath to the wind but Dandan, good friend dandan? He’s living he’s thriving he’s pulling

I want fics of them meeting & networking. He’s very up to the news in the dungeon goer community… All I’m saying is I can see Dandan bartering for a shot with her in exhange for information or helping her out find jobs, knowing she’s after guys to marry too 🤭 I think they should flirt in a tavern. I think they should make eyes at each other over glasses and exchanging business convos and leaving it all in the implied and unspoken

Dansivia is getting too real to me

The fics are fun go read ‘em

[73chn1c0l0rr3v3l]

So I've had an interesting revelation irt the Timeless Children and one of the critiques I see thrown at it a lot. And I think I've had a bit of a lightbulb moment about it.

One of the critiques I see about the episode Timeless Children is that the Doctor doesn't actually... do anything with it, she just has to witness and listen to being told about the tragedy that happened to her.

And I was thinking about how that reflects what happens to a lot of people who are learning about tragedies in their own pasts.

I couldn't do anything about the antisemitism my dad experienced, I couldn't do anything about the abuse my mother suffered. I can't change the abuse that I experienced before I can even remember it happening. Sometime the horror of finding out your history is that it's what it is - it's HISTORY, and you can't change it. You can't redo it, you can't fix it, you have to just deal with the repercussions of it.

So much of what I love about 13's era and the way Chibnall has done Doctor Who is the fact that it feels like it deals with the REALITY of stuff. No, you can't save the man who was going to die because that'll change history. No, you can't get rid of the horrible racists even though they're a blight, because that has to happen for history to happen. No, you can't go back in time and save yourself.

You have to live with it and you have to process it and you have to pick up the pieces, because sometimes you can't fix it, no matter how much you want it.

But you can keep going. You can find things that are terrifying that unseat your whole reality and sense of self, but you can still keep going. And I really love seeing that reflected with the Doctor.

[brilliantfantasticgeronimo]

ruby at the end of series 15: i finally realized that even though finding louise was great- i love my adoptive mom more than anything in the world. carla was caring and loving and i had the best adoption ever. #no regrets. 15: that's great babe :) (crying inside)

[vladdyissues]

Why did the cartoon never show us Danny's Birthday? It would be so funny if Vlad comes whatever he is invited or not. While everyone else made a little gift to Danny, Vlad could give a truck of sweets, cheese, toys and flowers.

This would be especially insidious if Danny and Vlad still considered themselves enemies—and if Vlad happened to be mayor at this time.

"HAPPY BIRTHDAY... DANNY FENTON."

Because now everyone sees Mayor Masters as being so kind and generous and thoughtful to Danny, and if Danny so much as makes a snide comment against Vlad's character, the whole of Amity Park will rise up against him. What an ungrateful brat! What's his problem? I can't believe he'd be so rude! The other kids at school would make Danny's life a living hell (well, worse than it already is), not to mention the verbal lashing he'd get from his parents.

"Danny, honey, I know you and Vlad aren't the best of friends, but can't you at least send him a thank you card? Some of these gifts are so expensive."

"Yeah, Danny, you can't just snub Vladdie like that. He puts on a tough front, but he's really got a soft heart. He's probably wondering why you haven't called yet."

And thus Danny is forced to interact with Vlad and smile and be nice and thank him him while suppressing the urge to phantom punch him into the middle of next week.

Definitely the worst birthday ever.

[khruschevshoe]

It's so funny to me that Chris Chibnall wrote both Cyberwoman and the Timeless Children because it shows that at one point he DID understand the horror of the Cybermen- that they were formerly people, that they are what's left of a person that is no longer there, that they are a corpse puppeted by a machine, that there is a human component at the center and the horror comes from seeing your former loved one scooped out and your hope forever being cursed to a futile one...to nameless extra Time Lords being made into basically robots except they can regenerate this time. Like, what the hell happened? Did he just spend so long thinking about the Timeless Children plot twist that he just fundamentally misunderstood why the Cybermen are terrifying or how they can be used to add to the tragedy of the plot?

Tell me what fundamentally changes if you make the Cybermen in Haunting of Villa Diodati/Ascension/Timeless Children basic robotic killing machines. Hell, what changes if you make them Daleks? Not once did they seek to convert the Doctor/her allies. If anything, their suits were just used as disguises.

Imagine if during the disguise part of the story the suits had come alive and started converting the team or hell, outright converted one of them. Imagine if they had to deal with the horror of that. Imagine if THAT is what caused Ryan/Graham to realize they didn't want to travel with the Doctor anymore. Hell, you could save them at the last moment if you want and leave them shaken up, just have them experience SOME true horror/fear. If Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel could do that with Jackie Tyler and Cyberwoman could do that with Lisa Hallett in a bone-chiling manner, you could do that with your team. I get if you were trying not to turn your third black companion in a row into a Cyberman, but in that case either sacrifice Graham or Yaz or don't do them at all if you're not going to use them for their express purpose/mechanic within the story.

[harbingersecho]

RVBtober 8+9 > fall + revelation "You know, sometimes, when somebody falls off a cliff in movies, he's actually just over the edge, hanging on a tree branch or something." "Nope. He's definitely dead."

... and he is. presumably.

(also if you ever decide to try and make a 2-page comic in 2 days even if half of it is just a paintover. don't do that. that's the devil talking)

[dandelionjack]

it really does all go back to ARE YOU MY MUMMY. meme phrase earworm do what you want with it, but through the empty child/the doctor dances, steven moffat created a microcosm of every theme and character motif explored in all of subsequent nuwho, everything the show would become.the original. the prototype. nothing will ever be that two parter nothing will ever measure up to it. defined the show. instant KO