#The hell is theyfab

[die-tenebris]

don't wanna derail the post I saw this discussion on- it was all in the notes anyway, so it certainly isn't op's problem. I'm gonna say this with so much love:

Calling somebody a 'theyfab' is not punching up. If someone's being transmisogynistic, say that, or call them a bigot. Naming the tangible harm done to you will always be the most effective thing to do.

The cis people who created that term made it with the explicit intent to mock and insult people's identities. No matter what you mean when you say it, this is its origin and to most people, its only meaning. It describes nothing about the discrimination you face.

People afab are marginalized, especially if they're queer. You cannot "punch up" on a fellow oppressed group. I understand the specific vitriol that they inflict on you hurts.

You don't need a word to call somebody, you need and deserve adequate justice for the tangible harm done to you; and my heart aches that nobody queer- especially trans women- ever seems to receive that.

I'm aware I can't make anybody do anything, so I'm not gonna try to tell you not to use that word. I just want to say it can't ever address, undo, or heal any harm done to you. It can only redirect it.

[lovelyrotter]

ill probably delete this in a minute but ive just been fuckin boggled by what ive seen across tumblr in the last few days in particular. its why i havent really been around. like holy fucking shit, its really like some of yall just dont want a chunk of the trans community to exist. like some of yall are thisclose to saying it verbatum. way too many already have. 'shut up sit down be quiet and smile for us' type shit, gee where have i heard that before. oh yeah my entire life cause i was forcefully gendered as someones daughter. shock horror i know. you might be surprised to remember and/or learn that very few trans folks know theyre trans before we're 5, or even 10, and that that gendered experience stays with all of us in both/either small or large ways. either bc we literally dont have a solid identity yet (bc we're very small children), dont have the words, we're repressing it out of fear from how others will treat us, we're actually enjoying or enjoyed being another gender in our childhood, or we just genuinely didnt fuckin know until shit lined up later in life. weird isnt it that transmascs dont pop out as 6'1 brick shithouse cis men when we're born so yall know for certain that we're confused lost girls/women oops i mean big dangerous scary men. its almost like we're transgender too. none of yall actually know what intersectionality is or means

[killrisma]

It’s kinda wild how some people who claim to be trans rights activists are so adamant about figuring out if someone is amab or afab. And then once they find out, they place you in the box of your assigned sex and completely disregard your actual identity.

[junejasprose-addict]

Some fucking ghouls on twitter just misgendered me and called me a chaser and a cross dresser and an agamp because I have an nsfw account where I retweet porn. Why do these kinds of people exist? Why are there trans women that just love acting exactly like terfs? I am so fucking tired of this shit and I'm not out to anyone irl so I have fucking no one to talk to about this! I'm not a docile little house cat so that gives people a free pass to paint me as a predator

[zhabe]

Zionist conversion students are demons sent by Hashem to torture the Jewish people

[3000s]

Y’all literally demonized testosterone, told us we were uglifying ourselves, told us it was impossible for us to get raped, told us we have to shut up when y’all (especially white transfems) say all of this shit to us and call us ‘theyfabs’ hell even coined that word but ok Chris Chan!❤️

yea man i hate testosterone so much thats why i've been on it for the past 6 years lmaooo, very telling that you assumed i must be transfem because i made a post about transmisogyny, but yeah very cool now cite your sources and show me where i said any of these things

[plaidos]

my wife is going to go hang out with her theyfab friend in another country for a week. just last night i realized she's only welcome to stay at their place for 3 nights and has to spend the other 3 at a hotel she has to pay for because they're having some other friends over and are out of places for her to sleep. i feel like im losing my mind the way they don't realize how much this puts her in danger. it's not a safe country for trans women. is there any way to reason with a theyfab about this? they keep saying she's gonna be fine because they've been fine, and since they're both trans, in their mind, it must be the same thing.

this is honestly peak theyfab behaviour. “i was safe so you will be too” is the overwhelming battle cry of the nation of theyfabs.

i’m sorry your wife is in this situation. i can only imagine how nauseated Sef would feel if this happened to me like, how do you even see yourself as a good friend when you can’t communicate stuff like “we expect this trans girl to sleep somewhere else on her own paid for by her own money” up front.

i don’t know what i would do in this situation, but i would be mad as hell. ultimately even if she IS perfectly safe this isn’t an acceptable leave of communication to have about something like “where our transfem friend(/YOUR WIFE) is sleeping tonight.”

in my experience, it is literally impossible to convince a theyfab that the way they are treating a trans woman is dangerously to her, because they see themselves as incapable of doing anything wrong to us. but if you would like to try (i doubt it will work!) i would stay as calm as you can about it and calmly explain why you personally are not comfortable with this solution no matter how much somebody tries to reassure you, because you fundamentally think it is dangerous & misguided. don’t hesitate to (casually. calmly. theyfabs won’t do anything if you make transfems sound “hysterical” in their eyes) bring up the fact that transfems are more exposed to and likely to see violent hatecrime than theyfabs, especially in places like hotels which are hotbeds for transmisogynistic violence.

i hope everything goes ok with you and your wife.

[genderkoolaid]

so hey, i've been a follower of yours for quite some time, and i think it's highly concerning that you reblogged posts arguing that "zionist" and variations on that word are antisemitic, somehow.

i think it's a shame that we are failing to address how israel's crimes are often obscured by ill intentioned tone-policing, seeking to disregard the very valid concerns over the legitimacy of the state of israel and its colonialist practices.

someone could use their criticism of israel as a way to promote their antisemitic beliefs, obviously, but zionism has a bad connotation not because it relates to jewish people, but because it closely relates to the defense and promotion of apartheid and genocide in israel.

to say that "zio" or whatever variation there is on the word "zionist" is, undeniably, a slur is an attempt to use jewish people and their plight to shield a very oppressive state and its supporters. i usually like your takes, but this one seemed a bit out of character.

"Zio" =/= "zionist" or "zionism." Its not fair to conflate the use of "zio" with the use of "zionism"; you can be opposed to one and be fine with the other.

The abbreviation of "zio" in particular is associated with far-right antisemitism. The linked article in that post discusses how it was popularized by the former grand wizard of the KKK. I personally have seen it used in antisemitic contexts for years and frankly, felt it was common knowledge that "zio" was a slur associated with the right.

In order for anti-Zionism to not be actively anti-semitic, you have to actually care about Jewish people. It is not at all necessary to use the abbreviation of "zio" once you know it's far-right associations. It is not necessary to Palestinian liberation. I got another anon (which was much more hostile) that, similarly to this one, ignored the specific context of "zio" and acted as though the term is just a shortening of zionism/zionist, when that is not what is being criticized. At least, that's not why I am criticizing it.

On top of the examples in the article, here's "zio" being used on Stormfront in 2004:

And on the "Jew World Order" website:

Further examples from David Duke's website over the years:

Hell, even the Chicago Dyke March eventually apologized for their use of it, citing its "violent history." So there are anti-Zionists who have simply recognized that it's not a great abbreviation to use.

It is not tone-policing to ask that people not use a specific term due to it's association with the far-right. "Zio" is not necessary to discuss the crimes of Israeli colonialism. This stance is not, as the other anon put it, "against the [pro-palestinian] movement to its core." It's not just a "variation" anymore than theyfab is "just a term made up to describe transmisogynistic nonbinary people." There's real harm behind these words, real reasons to avoid using them, and they are entirely unnecessary for addressing the actual issues.

When you know "zio" in this context, or if you've been on the receiving end of violence where it was used, it is entirely reasonable to be opposed to it. Jews are not tone-policing for being disturbed by its usage. Anti-zionism can only be non-antisemitic to the extent that people put in the work to unlearn antisemitism and actively oppose it. Not using "zio" helps distinguish between pro-Palestinian anti-Zionism, and anti-Jewish anti-Zionism, something that is only beneficial for the movement.

[psychotrenny]

can i ask- why use the word 'theyfab' in particular? since it draws such specific attention to their c-agab, and sounds so similar to terms and phrases used to demean cafab nonbinary people

Because when used appropriately* it doesn't draw any more attention to the target's AGAB than the target already has. TheyFAB is a term that arose in response to the unfortunately common tendency among AFAB non-binary people to socially weaponise their AGAB against transfems; embracing the common view of "Non-Binary= Women+" in order to take a position of innocence. People get called theyFAB when they imply or even outright state things along the lines of "There's no way I, as an AFAB, could commit violence against or hold privilege over any of those male-socialised trans women". Like hell, that sort of rhetoric already draws as much attention to any given tranfem's AGAB as it does to the "theyFAB" in question. If you don't want trans women to draw attention to your AGAB, then don't make anyone's AGAB their problem.

It also helps that the only people seriously offended by it are those ignorant and/or transmisogynist enough that they basically deserve it anyway. You don't have to like the word in order to appreciate the genuine frustrations behind it and realise that trans women do not as a class have enough power to make it meaningfully damaging. It's not as though trans women are, on a structural basis, big beneficiaries and defenders of patriarchal gender norms.

It's a bit like "cracker" in the way that it's a certainly not a nice word but you're stupid if you think it's a "slur" and an absolutely pathetic if you choose to make a big fuss over it. And once again if you don't wanna get called that word, the best thing to do is not be a bigot. It's surprisingly easy

*well as appropriate as a word like that can be

[deirdreskye]

I mean theyfab still shouldn’t be used bc i’ve literally only seen it used as a derogatory. Nobody gets a “i can be mean to other lgbtq+ people for the hell of it” pass.

Trans women absolutely get a pass for it are you kidding me

[thee-radio-host-is-a-kookaburra]

me watching cis women on twitter say shit like “cuntboys and theyfabs are fascist oppressor scum tme mra. they can all go to hell with their faux masculinity. all of them are sensitive invaders of the trans community god i fucking hate them. i’m not transphobic tho btw i support trans women!!!” and then be congratulated for what progressive allies they are

[this-is-exorsexism]

a post saying the term "theyfab" is affirming of non-binary identity because "they" takes up more of the term?? and acting like it is Okay to use that term because sometimes non-binary people are transmisogynistic??? huh??? like i no i think its still misgenderjng and gross. and if we're really gonna get on the level of counting letters, it's Made To Rhyme With AFAB with just a "th" appended at the stsrt

sorry im just. whgat the hell

this is exorsexism.

no one gets to decide what language is nonbinary-affirming except for nonbinary people themselves. binary people do not get to say what harms or affirms us and what doesn't. we are the experts on our experiences and identities, and they do not get to speak for us.

it's also very much not the done thing to fight bigotry with bigotry, i.e. if someone is bigoted towards you, you shouldn't just call them a term that's considered a slur or at least highly derogatory. "they were a bigot first" is no excuse. if your social commentary on antitransfemininity can't survive without calling nonbinary people slurs, it needs to be abolished and built back up from scratch.

[velvetvexations]

So weird question, but I've been seeing posts going around in transfeminist(and transradfeminist) spaces talking about how there's this huge problem in the queer community of people not agreeing rhst trans women are women, and like claims of people responding to the question of "would you stand up to defend trans women and argue that they are in fact women?" by saying "yeah, of course, gender is whatever you want it to be :)" and how that's a huge problem because it shows they don't actually agree that trans women are women, and insisting that "it only makes sense to categorize trans women as women and nothing else and if you won't accept that you're a bigot" and I'm just getting the feeling I'm missing something?

Cuz like yeah, trans women are obviously women, that's. That's obvious? And I don't think I've seen anyone on any side of trans discourse or theory or whatever state that they don't think trans women are women, or that any trans person isn't the gender they say they are(except for like people who are against afab transfems or argue for why it's okay to use theyfab, I guess) but I think that's something we all agree on overall, kinda the foundational stance of trans rights, but it's being said like this gotcha?? But I have no idea what the hell it's supposed to be a gotcha against??

The only thing I can possibly see this being about is like, people saying transphobes and our transphobic society don't fully view trans people as the gender they are, which they don't, that is also obvious and it doesn't mean trans women aren't women, just that society puts them more in the broken pervert faggot freak category and occasionally moves them between the woman and man categories based on whatever will hurt said trans women the most in any given situation, but if that's what it's about then how does people talking about how gender can be fluid have anything to do with that? It's honestly kinda weird to see people get so focused on like proving without a shadow of a doubt that trans women are women in all aspects and saying that acknowledging that gender is fluid and complicated and not easily defined is transmisognistic like...it feels a little transmed-ish to me?? And like also I thought we as a community were moving away from slogans like "trans men/woman are men/women" and on to like "trans liberation" because arguing that we are the gender we say we are with bigots breaks down into pedantic nonsense that detracts from the real issues like bathroom bills and anti-drag laws and HTR bans??

I just keep seeing these posts all over and it's making me feel like...idk like I'm in middle school and people are teasing me by asking me questions that I don't have the full context for and then calling me a freak when I answer wrong, but I'm worried if I ask any of them "what's this really about" I'm going to get insulted and called a transmisognist for suggesting it's not just about trans women being women even though I really am getting the feeling it's not actually just about trans women being women.

Anyway if you don't know that's fine, I just thought you might have some insight since you seem to understand these people and their talking points pretty well and you're also a trans woman so I trust and value your input on this stuff.

the entire point of trans radical feminism is basically that it soothes dysphoria a bit to imagine that Christofascists do actually think trans women are women and trans men are men and treat them like the cis equivalent so they've abandoned gender anarchy because it's not validating enough

they don't care about liberation they just want to tell themselves that other people see them as what they identify as and that is literally their only priority

"trans women are women taxonomically because we're oppressed" Emily that's how radfems define womanhood they just think the oppression is based on sex rather than self-identification

[ardourie]

why does it always go back to “jim crow has no effect on black people today” ratliker i wasn’t even the first person remotely who called her out and she called multiple trans girls who were telling her she was being racist “mentally ill theyfabs “ her entire blog and all the post r still up i cannot believe u ppl have been labeling me as some violent transphobe for years over a girl that denied black genocide and doubled down on it multiple times when ppl told her she was being racist u can literally search her name up and see hundreds of ppl going “yeah this was racist” and she quite literally misgendered me and the. when she was told this she said it was cringe to check for pronouns it’s fucking insane how much this has been twisted when her blog is still up like it’s so unserious the way this rumor has been twisted to hell

[unavailableapple]

Excuse me for coming to your askbox, I am not a radfem and don't agree with a lot of it's principles, yet I find radfem spaces are the only place where discussion of nonbinary identity has any nuance. Personally I have no problem with people doing whatever they want with their own bodies/minds/labels but I did struggle to wrap my head around just how many people started IDing as nonbinary during the last few years. Now recently it's been a bit of the opposite, with a noticeable amount of previously out and proud nonbinary people dropping the label. I've heard some people discuss it like it was just "in fashion" for a while, while others insist it's a result of gender experimentation or having to go back in the closet due to the political climate. But it's not just the young, I noticed that includes some of the first nb people I knew, who were nonbinary before 2020, hell, before 2015. I know you had a similar experience, so I just wanted to hear your opinion on this whole phenomenon, why it's happening and why now, and if you expect the trend to continue?

So I’ve been thinking about this a lot and honestly the short answer is: I’m not sure.

The long answer:

I think that these things come in waves. Think about BBL surgery (Brazilian butt-lift surgery). When that surgery was really popular, I’m sure it felt like a very real need to the women who got it. Similarly, my nonbinary identity felt very real to me. But once you apply any amount of pressure to either of these, they start to break. Because really what does it mean to be nonbinary? Why do I NEED to express myself as nonbinary? Why does she NEED to have a large posterior? Eventually you realize, it is misogyny. That’s all it is. And then the whole thing falls apart…Aside from that, even if you don’t acknowledge the misogyny, these things are ultimately superficial and, as such, fall away once one reaches a certain point of adulthood.

I don’t mean adulthood as in becoming an adult human I mean adulthood as in a certain level of struggle that makes fanciful discussions of pronouns seem taxing. Eventually real life catches up and you don’t feel like wasting your precious free time thinking about whether you use they, she, he, or meow pronouns. I think the lasting effects of COVID have meant terrible things for the general public and a lot of people are struggling to pay rent or afford food. I know that what first made me stop caring about pronouns was when I was homeless and thought a lot more about finding a safe place to sleep than making sure everyone calls me he/meow/it pronouns.

Then I think there’s the climate of the trans community right now. When I was younger, there was an idea of, “Being trans is equally hard for males AND females”. But now the dominant narrative seems to be that trans identified males have it a thousand times harder being trans and trans identified females face no oppression at all. I do think this drives more trans identified females out of trans spaces and leads them to find more community with other women. This was the case for several of my friends. Once the trans community told them, “You don’t face any oppression” even though they did (by right of being female), they stopped feeling aligned with a nonbinary identity and suddenly realized they felt more aligned with being female, on the basis of shared experiences.

Finally, it could genuinely just be that it’s falling out of fashion. I’m of an era where I, like a lot of young women my age, was the froggy jumper round glasses meow/it pronoun using boyflux aligned aroace nonbinary person and that was in style. Nowadays kids on TikTok make fun of that and it’s much less “in”. Recently Mitski cut her hair short and people started calling her “theyfab”. For the uninitiated, theyfab is a rude term the trans community uses for a female person who identifies as nonbinary, especially if she doesn’t do anything to express this nonbinary identity beyond cutting her hair. They were not trying to “affirm” Mitski, they were making fun of her for being a gender nonconforming woman, and they were making fun of the women who identify as nonbinary. No matter what, it’s always “in” to make fun of women so if a lot of women are identifying as nonbinary, it’s going to be “in” to make fun of them and it is. On pinterest, Nonbinary identities are already being relegated to “2010s nostalgia” the way moustache tattoos on pointer fingers are “2000s nostalgia”, these things come and go.

So yeah, I ultimately don’t know, and these are only a couple among my many many MANY different theories. But based on my own experience and the experiences of people I know, this is what I’ve been thinking.

[softenedsunbeams]

Wait what's theyfab? We've heard the term a lot but we've always heard it in the context of something something bigoted insult. Is it a reclaimed thing or am I misinformed or...? /genq

oh yeah it's bigoted as hell. used as a term for people who call themselves nonbinary but don't make an effort to be androgynous/completely genderless so clearly they're fake queers who're doing it for attention