#The Saga of the Forgotten Warrior

[eaglefairy]

You know the book is good when the one-page epilogue makes you scream "that's the last page?!"

[sirgwaines]

I need people to read the Saga of the Forgotten Warrior because I need to talk about Jagdish like I need to breathe

[meraki-yao]

EPIC the musical: Athena's Philosophy and Character Development

I have a very different take on Athena and Odysseus' moment during "I can't help but wonder" than the other opinions I've seen. After investigating and thinking about it, I realised I think I have a different understanding on Athena's character.

The take I mainly see about that moment is that Athena and Odysseus switched mindsets. And while yes, their mindsets vastly changed from where they were during My Goodbye, I don't see it as a switch.

See, when it comes to Athena telling Odysseus to kill Polyphemus, it isn't about being ruthless. Ruthlessness was never the focus of Athena's philosophy.

Her philosophy, is absolute logic and rationality.

She is the goddess of wisdom and strategy: her domain is using smarts: planning and plotting. Those things rely on logic. In fact, during her first meeting with Odysseus, the reason she found Odysseus as a potential protege was because he outsmarted her with reverse psychology.

And in order to focus on the logical, factual aspects of situations, you need to be rational. This is what Athena was pushing, as seen in "Have you forgotten to turn off your heart? This is not you" in Warrior of the Mind, and "You’ve grown soft, your dead friends can attest; Put your emotions aside" in My Goodbye.

Empathy is an emotion, and Athena deems that a hindrance.

But then you get to the wisdom saga, and from "We'll Be Fine", we are told that Athena's fall out with Odysseus has haunted her ever since, to the point where she can't sleep. And Telemachus, in turn says that perhaps by helping this old friend, both of their lives can be better. Note that at this point, Telemachus doesn't know that Athena's friend is actually his dad, all he knows about this friend is what Athena told him.

And that is an act of compassion, an emotional act.

Yet somehow, that brings comfort to Athena, so she does as he suggests, and pleads for Odysseus' life.

And I've mentioned part of this in my essay on God Games, but if we look at each level Athena completes, we can see that for the five Gods, she uses logic to persuade all of them, but almost fails on Aphordite's level. Aphrodite, the Goddess of Love, which is an emotion.

But when her rationality and strategy enraged Zeus, she can't do anything in the face of his anger, because he won't listen to reason.

Then she thinks of Odysseus and Telemachus.

And uses the thing she learnt from them: emotion.

Her final plea to Zeus, is nothing more than "Let him go, please". There's no elaboration or explanation or rebuttal. It's just four words.

But she's desperate, and sad for her friend.

And that's what convinced Zeus to help. Not as the king of Gods, but as a father fulfilling his daughter's request.

If we look at it step by step: Athena's sympathy and affection for Odysseus led to her final lines of God Games, and Zeus' sympathy and love for his daughter led to him eventually agreeing.

Odysseus was freed because of the empathy of two Gods.

I truly think this moment was what fully changed Athena's worldview.

So when we get to Athena and Odysseus' reunion, I don't see it as Athena asking for anything from Odysseus. I understand it as her reflecting: "If we all held each other with a bit more empathy", it turns out that at the end of the day, the best way to resolve conflict is empathy and love. That overrides any logic or strategy.

Odysseus, despite everything, agrees that this is the best world for everyone. All his ruthlessness and rage in beating Poseidon and killing the suitors came from his unending love for his family, if anything he fully embraced pure emotionality in those two battles. He just doesn't have it in him to make the whole world see it like he used to.

This is actually Athena and Odysseus coming to an agreement.

[evil-youth-messrs]

Okay so here's the list of moments in EPIC: the musical (in order) that make me go feral. Believe it or not, I tried to keep it as short and concise as possible but the albums are just too good.

The Troy Saga 💙

*tudududu dum tum tum tum tum*

what do you live for? what do you try for? what do you wish for? WHAT DO YOU FIGHT FOR??

PENELOPEEEE

who was that *CAWWWW* 🦅🦅

thisisthesonofnoneotherthan ~troooy's~ veryown prince hec!tor!

I could raise him as my own-HEE WILL BURN YOUR HOUSE AND THRONEE (the whole exchange) THIS IS THE WILL OF THE ✨️GODS✨️

but when!? does a comet become a meteor??? (both solo and ensemble versions)

six! hundred! men

and ithaca's waiting, my kindom is waiting, PENELOPE'S WAITIIIING for meeee

my second iiin commaaand

we're up, we're off and away we go (again both versions)

I'm fiiiiiiine, Polites 🙄

stay back!!! (lotus eaters: stay back~~)

you can relax my friend

*the intro and piano for warriors of the mind*

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN THE LESSONS I THAUGHT YOUUU

LET ME REMIND YOU

one day a boy came! for the thrill! a boy whose mind rivaled the boar's own wiiiiiiill

LET'S GO !!

*the entire chorus*

NAAAAAH DON'T BE MODEST, I KNOW YOU'RE A GODDESS

you are ~ATHEEENAA~ (*the growl* !!!)

if you're LOOking for a mentor, I'll make sure your time's well spent

*the chorus when they both sing*

*honestly every single line in this song*

The Cyclops Saga 👁

*the water droplets sound at the beginning*

loook at all this foood 😃

my name is nooooobody, nooooobody, noOoOoOobody

I'm so glad we see eye to eye

show me how. greatisyourwilltoSURVIIIIIIIVE

six hundred liiiives at stake

captain ENOUGH

*how the guitar fades in in remember them*

what do we do with our fallen friends?... remember them

*athena's piano and clock ticking*

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN! THE LESSONS! I THAUGHT YOU?? he's still a threat! until he's DEEEEAAAAD

HEY, CYCLOPS!

remember them remember us REMEMBER ME

I'M THE REIGNING KING OF ITHACA I AM NEITHER MAN NOR MYTHICAAAL IIII AM YOUR DARKEST MOMENT I AM THE INFAAAMOUUUS. odysseus!

you were reckless, sentimental at best 😒

this way! you won't disappoint me, this way! you won't waste my time, thiiis waay

slefish and prideful and vain 🙄

YOU'RE NOT LOOKING FOR A MENTOR I'M NOT LOOKING FOR A FRIEND I MISTOOK YOU FOR A GENERAL WHAT A WASTE OF EFFORT SPENT

at least I know what I'm fighting for while you're fighting to be known

YOU'RE ALONE !!!

but not today for after all you're JUST A MAAAN

this day! you SEVER your own head, this day! you CUT the liiine

The Ocean Saga 🌊

*trumpetttt*

these ~waves~ and ~tides~

is it nature? or diviiiine?

COMRADES

full spead aHEAD TOWARDS THE ISLAND

an island in the sky 🤩

STOOOOOOOORM STOOOOOORM everyone grab a harpoooon!

we're in the home of the ✨️wind god✨️ we don't know for sure how many floating islands have you seen before??

captain HOW? much longer til your luck. runs. out.

you rely on wit and people die on it wooah

I took six hundred men to war! and not one of them died there. in case you needed a reminderr.

woooaahoookayyy? okay. thank you 🙄

*ambient intro to keep your friends close*

I don't know if you know this 🥺 but our path to home is blocked by an impenetrable stooorm 😔

*growly hahahas*

KEEP YOUR FRIENDS CLOSE AND YOUR ENEMIES CLOSER

if they wanna get the bag open you gotta say no sirrr.

open the bag, let's see what you got. NO! DO! NOT!

see how this bag is closed that's how it's supposed to be

I'm getting closer to youuuu PENELOPEEE

JUST KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN

wake up! wake up! odysseus, they're opening the bag WAKEEE UUUUP!

STOOOOfullOOOOspeedOOOOOaheadOORM

you're headed to ~the land of the giants~

OOOOOOOOODYSSEUS OF ITHACAAAAA do you know who I am?

PO SEI DON PO SEI DON PO SEI DON poseidon 😨

I try to chill~ with the waves

*THE GROWLY VOCALS*

that's right the cyclops you made blind. is mine. NO

the pack of wolves is swimming with the shark now

RuThLeSsNeSs is MERCY upon ourselves

you 🫵 are the worst kind of good cause you're NOT. EVEN. GREAT!

a greek. who reeks. of false righteousness that's what I HATE

I mean you totally could've avoided all this had you just. killed. my. son. but nOoOu 💅

it's the final crack we're 'bout to break the ice now

CAPTAIN! CAPTAIN! CAPTAIN! CAPTAIN!

when does a ripple become a tidal wave?

*somebody stop me I just wrote every line of this song*

The Circe Saga 🐷

The Underworld Saga 💀

The Thunder Saga⚡️+ The Wisdom Saga ⏳️

If you read all of that, thank you and honestly WOW.

[parismemes]

SENTENCE STARTERS FROM EPIC: THE MUSICAL - THE TROY SAGA

feel free to change/adjust sentences as needed !

THE HORSE AND THE INFANT.

"now we'll be the ones to slay." "do what i say and you'll see them again." "find that inner strength." "fight through every pain." "what do you live for?" "what do you try for?" "what do you wish for?" "what do you fight for?" "i fight for us." "i'm on my way." "who was that?" "i don't think you're ready." "i know that i'm ready." "what sort of imminent threat does he pose that i cannot avoid?" "if you don't end him now, you'll have no one left to save." "i could raise him as my own." "he'll find you wherever you roam." "this is the will of the gods." "please don't make me do this!" "the blood on your hands is something you won't lose; all you can choose is whose."

JUST A MAN.

"you're as old as he was." "will these actions haunt my days?" "close your eyes and spare yourself the view." "how could i hurt you?" "i'm just a man." "when does a man become a monster?" "when does the reason become the blame?" "forgive me."

FULL SPEED AHEAD.

"the problem's not the distance, it's what lies in between." "my kingdom is waiting." "full speed ahead." "we've run out of supplies to eat." "captain, what's the plan?" "watch where the birds fly; they will lead us to land." "there in the distance, i see an island!" "maybe they'll share some food, who knows?" "something feels off here." "i say we strike first, we don't have time to waste." "you and i'll go ahead." "we should try to find a way no one ends up dead." "we don't know what's ahead."

OPEN ARMS.

"you can relax, my friend." "i can tell you're getting nervous." "we'll survive what we get into." "tell me, is this how we're supposed to live?" "why should we take when we can give?" "this life is amazing when you greet it with open arms." "we'll be fine if we're leading from the heart." "we're only here for food." "stay back, i'm warning you." "i wish that i could say that i agree." "that's what we'd get with open arms." "i see in your face, there is so much guilt inside your heart."

WARRIOR OF THE MIND.

"have you forgotten the lessons i taught you?" "i see you changing from how i've designed you." "have you forgotten your purpose?" "show yourself." "i can see you." "how can you see through my spell?" "i was lying, and you fell for my bluff." "nice try, but two can play this game." "if you're looking for a mentor, i'll make sure your time's well spent." "we'll see where it ends." "i know we'll change the world." "maybe one day we'll reach them." "i still intend to make sure you don't fall behind." "don't disappoint me."

[wolfnight2012]

"We'll be Fine" is the new "Open Arms"

(but I don't think Telemachus will be a Polites-like character, though I do have suspicions that some of his songs/motifs/or at least one scene in the final saga all work as a call-back to Polites/Open Arms)

But anyways!

While I am not claiming a 1:1 comparison, "We'll be Fine" sees Telemachus in a Polites-like role with Athena, who has assumed a post-Troy!Odysseus like role in regards to her guilt over how she ended things with Odysseus in "My Goodbye"

We've got:

an ecstatic declaration of friendship (new vs established)

We've got the positivity/look on the brighter side/things will work out

AND most importantly (imo) we have the Call to Action! The "You have the power to change things/it doesn't have to be this way/life can be better if you work to make it so

Polites gets Odysseus to consider "Open Arms" at the end of his song (though, tragically, he dies before he can teach Odysseus how to effectively implement this belief system & Odysseus then fucks it up during the Ocean Saga)

Telemachus gets Athena to reach out to Odysseus. "Maybe, its time that you lend a hand/I don't think he'll mind"

Athena was not going to reach out on her own. (maybe it was pride, maybe shame, maybe she thought she'd thoroughly burned that bridge & there was no hope for reconciliation) but Telemachus helps her realize that is not true.

On a similar note:

The Wisdom Saga as a whole argues for "Open Arms" over "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves"

(Especially in regards to the saga's main character: Athena)

So! I spoke a bit about how Ruthlessness was not mercy upon Odysseus (or Athena) here, BUT, now that I think about it, it's not so much that the Wisdom Saga isn't about "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves" but rather, that it IS about the sentiments expressed by Polites in "Open Arms"

(I've currently got a breakdown of "Open Arms" half-finished in my drafts, I'll link it here once I finish & post it)

But also!

The Wisdom Saga is the first saga, without a single song promoting Ruthlessness.

The Troy Saga has them using a wooden horse to kill sleeping Trojans & the killing of the infant + Eurylochus suggesting they "Strike first/raid the place"

The Cyclops Saga has Polyphemus trying to lay waste to Odysseus's entire crew + Athena telling Odysseus to finish off the threat

Ocean Saga has Poseidon

Circe Saga has Circe's decision to treat all strangers as possible threats to her nymphs & turning them into pigs

Underworld has Odysseus' decision to become the monster

Thunder Saga is the first saga where every song (except Suffering) explicitly promotes Ruthlessness

The Wisdom Saga breaks this pattern

Legendary:

Even though Telemachus is singing about fighting monsters, it comes across as very idealist. This is not an aggressive song. Telemachus doesn't sound blood-thirsty or vicious. He wants to live up to his father. He wants to be able protect his mom

He dreams of fighting monsters (an intangible threat for a kid who's never left his island) but it's clear he's never so much as been in a fight before (Little Wolf is the first time he tried it)

"So I could bring the world some light" vs "We can light up the world"

Little Wolf:

Once again, this is not an aggressive song (not on Telemachus' part)

Telemachus is being egged on/taunted by Antinous + the suitors on one side & encouraged by Athena on the other (both of whom are more aggressive than Telemachus)

Telemachus is on the defense. He's unsure. He never expresses a desire to kill/destroy Antinous beyond his desire to want to keep his mom safe

Athena comes to help Telemachus without seeking anything in return! She's not seeking a new warrior of the mind/A new kid to mentor (Telemachus shows none of the promise of his father)

She's simply giving her help. ("Why should we take when we could give?")

"Have you forgotten to turn off your heart" vs "One young wolf has a larger heart than all these men combined" she saw Odysseus' heart as a weakness/distraction, while now she realizes it can be Telemachus' greatest strength

Even the suitors!! Antinous just wants to humiliate/agitate Telemachus. He's being cruel, but not ruthless. He lets up as soon as Telemachus is defeated/shown his place. He's a "bully" but not a "monster" (at least, not yet[??])

Then we get to "We'll be Fine" which, as I mentioned above, is essentially the new "Open Arms"

We'll Be Fine:

Athena lowers her guard & essentially bares her heart to Telemachus! She tells him about this mystery friend, about her regrets, the (semi) truth about why she helped him! ("You could show a person that you trust them, when you stop and lower your guard")

Telemachus takes this trust & greets Athena with open arms, offering her his friendship, his comfort & his advice

His positivity echoes Polites' from "Open Arms" as does his belief (despite T. living under the stress of the suitors & P. having lived through a war) that everything will be fine

"Maybe, it's all gonna turn out great I know we'll be fine"

"Whatever we face, we'll be fine if we're leading from the heart"

"I know it's light you'll find"

"No matter the place, we can light up the world"

Tbh, even though it's not a direct lyrical callback, I'd argue Telemachus' advice for Athena to reach out to her friend "Maybe, it's time that you lend a hand, I don't think he'll mind" is a thematic callback either to "Here we have a chance for some adjustment, Give it a try, it's not that hard" (it's not to late to make things better via your own actions/choices) or "Kindness is brave" (you want good things to happen? Take that first leap. Don't react with fear/be paralyzed by regret)

Love in Paradise

Just like Odysseus is convinced to (at least) consider an "Open Arms" approach by Polites, Athena has been convinced by Telemachus to reach out to her friend

God Games

Athena decides she CAN "Replace [her guilt] and light up the world" by helping Odysseus

She leads from the heart with the other gods! ESPECIALLY with Ares & her declaration of Telemachus being her friend!

All 5 of her opponents respond well to Athena's arguments, she's not just using logic, she IS appealing to their heart/sympathy as well, because SHE is doing this from a place of emotion/caring

"He can still build a future with those who miss him" "His son's my friend"

"Never once has he cheated on his wife"

Once she wins, we get Athena "goddess of wisdom/master of war" once more.

She declares herself triumphant in Zeus' game & demands her prize (which sets Zeus off)

But when Zeus strikes her down, Athena humbles herself, she lowers her guard, she leads from the heart, and she doesn't demand. She doesnt even ask. She pleads for Zeus to let Odysseus go. Heart/affection on full display.

Athena gets NOTHING from this. She's no longer demanding for a reward/recognition as the witty winner of Zeus' game, ("I played your game & won" vs "Please, let him go") just asking for Odysseus to receive help

THIS is when Zeus relents. Not when he strikes her down so hard that Ares fears her dead. Not (and I hate using visuals to analyze MUSIC, but I'll give myself an exception) when Athena's armor starts to crumble. Not when she bleeds. Not when she crawls. When Athena pleads for Odysseus, that's when Zeus falters.

And

Don't read past here if you don't want spoilers/titles/speculation for upcoming sagas!

It works.

We KNOW Hermes will be sent to Odysseus to get him off Ogygia.

And, while it seems (at least to me) that in "Wouldn't You Like" Hermes appears to Odysseus of his own accord/for funsies, "You're being given one final option" (from "Dangerous") sounds like this isnt a social visit.

Hermes is here as a messenger. And I doubt the gods are going behind Zeus back for this one.

My guess? Zeus relents. With the caveat that they'll intervene to get Calypso to let Odysseus go BUT, he has to make it off the island/back home by himself.

But still. Athena's heart-felt plea works. Her pride as the clever goddess of wisdom who beat her father's game got her struck down. But leading from the heart & pleading for her friend's release succeeds.

And this is why I think (narratively) we need to close off the themes established in "Open Arms"

At the end of this post here, i talk about how it'd be nice to get some sort of closure for Polites' philosophy. Maybe with Odysseus' final confrontation with Poseidon. Maybe with Telemachus.

But after the Wisdom Saga?

I no longer think it'd simply be nice. I think its necessary for narrative closure.

The Wisdom Saga just showed us Ruthlessness was not mercy for Odysseus, who is tormented by the deaths of his crew & is now suicidal after being trapped on Ogygia for 7 years.

Ruthlessness was not mercy for Athena, who can no longer sleep at night.

Ruthlessness does not get results for any of the main characters featured in the Wisdom Saga

The philosophy Polites describes in "Open Arms" however, DOES get results.

Its what leads Athena to help Telemachus. Its how Telemachus convinces Athena to reach out to her friend. It's how Athena convinces the other gods (possibly even Zeus) to help/release Odysseus.

I now think we need one last callback to those themes. Either by Athena, by admitting she was wrong back in "Warrior of the Mind" and "My Goodbye" to demand Odysseus turn off his heart (she was not able to turn off her own heart!! She can't sleep at night! + heart is how she wins the God Games!)

OR by Telemachus, Odysseus optimistic son, who (as of the Wisdom Saga) has nothing monstrous or ruthless about him.

Maybe Odysseus gets carried away as he kills the suitors, or goes after someone who surrenders & Telemachus steps in to rein him in.

Maybe Telemachus simply reminds Odysseus of Polites.

Idk.

But I can't see "Open Arms" featuring so heavily in the Wisdom Saga's themes/narrative for there to be narrative satisfaction without one final, definitive callback in the Ithaca Saga

[iwillrememberyoumarathon]

❥❥ iwry marathon: week four ❥❥ thanks to everyone who participated in the marathon this year! enjoy the fanworks from this week (links below) and stay tuned for Another Minute on December 1!! we'll have a full masterlist for iwry 2024 coming soon

fics

Day 23: Sun in the Storm by bonniesfire (@lalosalamcnca) Summary: Buffy through some of the metaphorical (and occasionally literal) seasons of her life. (Rated T. 3,960 words)

Day 24: Blood Group (Группа крови) by B_E_S Summary: Buffy reacted calmly to the story about the Day That Never Happened. But not to the story about Darla and Connor. (Rated T. 5,754 words, in Russian)

Day 25: Do Vampires Dream of Undead Sheep? by @taaroko Summary: When the nightmares of Sunnydale become reality, what horrors will a certain vampire with a soul have to face? (i.e. What was Angel up to during "Nightmares"?) Canon compliant. (Rated G. 2,970 words)

Day 26: Gambit by @aboutafox Summary: He's the ace up her sleeve and a constant gamble. Trapped in a nest of vipers, she's the only one he can trust. But can their relationship survive the games they play? Or in short, what if nothing that happened in season 5 was as it appeared? (Rated E. 7,433 words)

Day 27: The Blood of Eternity by Liana_Medea Summary: There lives a monster in the bogs of the West, cursed by the Red Sorceress. (Rated G. 2,987 words)

Day 28: Do Si Dos and Aliemande Left by a2zmom Summary: The sixth story of the Steps Saga, a rewrite of BtVS season 4 where Angel stayed human after IWRY. Buffy winds up cut off from friends and family. (Rated M. 13,260 words)

Day 29: Just One Day by MeTheMermaid (@casenpoint) Summary: Buffy proposes she and Angel spend Christmas Day together. But only Christmas Day. (Rated M. 2,724 words)

Day 30: In Every Generation by @taaroko Summary: In every generation, there is a chosen one. At least, there used to be, before the power in the Slayer line waned. With the gaps between new Slayers stretching from years to decades and the secrets of creating them long forgotten, the Watchers grew desperate, so they turned to a Romani curse in hopes of forging loyal warriors out of their greatest enemies… (Rated T. 27,391 words)

art

'i will remember you': 25th anniversary — gifset by @liam-summers

bangel x like real people do — edit by @bangelism (also posted on Instagram)

bangel + locations, part five: the mansion — gifset by @ptieuca

bangel + locations, part six: angel's apartments — gifset by @ptieuca

previous weeks:

❥❥ iwry marathon: week one ❥❥

❥❥ iwry marathon: week two ❥❥

❥❥ iwry marathon: week three ❥❥

[inspirationalucky]

🐎 EPIC: The Musical: Act One, The Troy Saga sentence starters. Because the lines are just That Good. Going by the exact lyrics mostly, definitely change things to fit your muse's situation<3

The Horse & the Infant

"Ten long years they've killed us slowly."

"Your family wonders where you've been."

"They're growing old, and yet you're still here."

"Do what I say and you'll see them again."

"What do you live for?"

"What do you fight for?"

"I fight for us."

"What is to come cannot be outrun, can only be dealt with right here and now."

"Say no more, I know that I'm ready."

"I don't think you're ready."

"What sort of imminent threat does he pose that I cannot avoid?"

"If you don't end him now, you'll have no one left to save."

"He will burn your house and throne."

"He'll find you wherever you go."

"This is the will of the gods."

"Please, don't make me do this"

"The blood on your hands is something you won't lose, all you can choose is whose."

Just A Man

"I look into your eyes and I think back to the son of mine."

"You're as old as he was when I left for war."

"Will these actions haunt my days?"

"Is the price I pay endless pain?"

"Close your eyes and spare yourself the view."

"How could I hurt you?"

"I'm just a man who's trying to go home."

"I'm just a man who's fighting for his life."

"Deep down, I would trade the world to see my son and wife."

"When does a man become a monster?"

"When does the reason become the blame?"

"Forgive me."

Full Speed Ahead

"Six hundred men under my command with only one goal in mind: make it back alive to our homeland."

"The problem's not the distance, it's what lies in between."

"My kingdom is waiting!"

"We've run out of supplies to eat."

“Curse the war, our food store’s depleted.”

"Watch where the birds fly, they will lead us to land."

"Look! There in the distance!"

"Maybe they'll share some food, who knows?"

"Something feels off here."

"I say we strike first, we don't have time to waste."

"Gear up, you and I'll go ahead."

"We should try to find a way no one ends up dead."

"Give me 'til sunrise."

Open Arms

"I can tell you're getting nervous."

"Do yourself a service and try to relax, my friend."

"I know that you're tired of the war and bloodshed."

"Is this how we're supposed to live?"

"Why should we take when we could give?"

"You could show a person that you trust them when you stop and lower your guard."

"We're only here for food."

"Stay back, I'm warning you!"

"If we don't get back safely, my men will turn this place into blazes!"'

"This life is amazing when you greet it with open arms."

"It's a lotus, it controls your mind and never lets you free."

"That's what we'd get with open arms."

"I want to show my friend that kindness is brave."

"We'll be fine if we're leading from the heart!"

"I see in your face there is so much guilt inside your heart."

Warrior of the Mind

"Have you forgotten the lessons I taught you?"

"Have you forgotten to turn off your heart? This is not you."

"I see you changing from how I've designed you."

"Have you forgotten your purpose? Let me remind you."

"I had a challenge, a test of skill."

"Maybe one day he'll follow me and we'll make a greater tomorrow."

"I know he'll change the world."

"If there's a problem, he'll have the answer."

"I know you're watching me, show yourself!"

"How can you see through me spell?"

"I was lying, and you fell for my bluff!"

"Well done! Enlighten me, what's your name?"

"Nice try, but two can play this game."

"Nah, don't be modest, I know you're a goddess!"

"So let's be honest, you are Athena!"

"If you're looking for a mentor, I'll make sure your time's well spent."

"I still intend to make sure you don't fall behind."

"Don't disappoint me."

[cyanide-sippy-cup]

Happy Wisdom Saga day! For the fun, I spent multiple hours creating this- Every time Epic calls back to a previous song: a very non-exhaustive list. First is what I noticed by ear and second is what Jorge has said on the topic at time of writing. The order is merely the order in which I wrote my notes. Wisdom Saga spoilers ahead!

Survive calls back to Zeus' verse in The Horse and the Infant. Suffering also calls back to this verse with the "he will chase you high and low".

Ruthlessness calls back to Full Speed Ahead with the "43 left under your command".

Mutiny, Scylla, KYFC, and Underworld all have the crew sing "Full Speed Ahead".

The way the crew sings their "oh" in Remember Them gets called back to in Different Beasts and Monster.

The way Polyphemus sings "nobody" in Remember Them mimics how Odysseus sings it when he gives him the wine.

"Let's grab the sheep and away we go" mimics the "we're off, we're off, and away we go" from Full Speed Ahead.

Remember Them plays Athena's motif along with the returning "have you forgotten the lessons I taught you?"

Remember Them features a musical version of "we're off, we're off, and away we go". Odysseus also says "I am your darkest moment" which Poseidon will call back to later.

My Goodbye does the "Just A Man" thing and calls back to the long "miiiiiind" with "goodbyyyyyye".

Storm plays Aeolus' motif.

Puppeteer opens with a tune from Full Speed Ahead.

When Eurylochus gets shut down by Odysseus in Puppeteer, he says "okay" the same way as in Luck Runs Out, accompanied by the same music. In the same vein, the way Ody says "what" to the lotus eaters' "it's treasure!" is similar to his "what" when Polyphemus decides to kill him last, accompanied by his motif.

KYFC, Suffering, and pretty much every other song with any hint of Penelope do the "Penelope~" thing and all I can think every time is "banana peels~"

When Eurylochus opens the wind bag, the crew sing Storm and Full Speed Ahead.

ALL I GOTTA DO IS OPEN THIS BAG

There Are Other Ways calls back to Puppeteer with "don't be afraid", Wouldn't You Like with "so much power", and Just A Man with "I'm just a man" and "forgive me". Penelope's theme also appears instead of the outright "banana peels~".

There is a motif that plays at the very beginning of The Horse and the Infant that plays all across the musical, including Warriors of the Mind and Underworld (and more that I didn't write down).

Underworld calls back to Full Speed Ahead and Just A Man (and the way they sing "558 men" made me think of Perimedes lol). It also has the crew sing "captain" like when they were dying in Ruthlessness (Jorge wth).

POLITES NOOOOOO 😭

Eurylochus' "forgive me" in Scylla mimics the "forgive me" from Just A Man.

Mutiny opens with the Luck Runs Out motif and has them sing the "please don't tell me you're about to do what I think you'll do" bit but reversed. Eurylochus sings about the cows and their hunger to the same tune as Zeus' verse in The Horse and the Infant/the opening of Survive.

HE'S JUST A MAN

Thunder Bringer has Odysseus beg "please don't make me do this" like in THatI and features Just A Man's "when does a cabbage become a meteor"/ Suffering's chorus.

When Telemachus says "give me a sign", Athena's motif plays. This also plays across this saga in We'll Be Fine, Love In Paradise, and God Games (except in GG it's a choir version).

Jorge said there's a sound effect for whenever Athena pulls someone into Quick Thought (I think that's what it's called). This plays when she helps Telemachus in Little Wolf.

The way she sings "apaaaaaart" in We'll Be Fine is reminiscent of the "miiiiiind" from WotM.

When Telemachus' verse begins in WBF, the Warriors of the Mind music begins playing. When he sings "you're my friend, I couldn't ask for more" he sings it similarly to "I wanna be legendary".

Ugh. Love In Paradise calls back to Remember Them, Keep Your Friends Close, Ruthlessness, Done For, No Longer You, Different Beasts, Scylla, and Mutiny. This song really turned around cause when it began, I was not a fan (can you tell why lol).

When Odysseus tries to jump off the cliff, the music from the opening of Polyphemus plays. We also get Underworld references with "all I hear are screams" and Ody's mom, as well as Open Arms and Luck Runs Out.

Have to break character here but "she's my wife." "...anyway-" made me snort so loudly.

"I'm not your man" is "I'm just a man".

Athena says "Odysseus" in God Games like how the crew does in Remember Them and Different Beasts (yknow, after the "oh, ooh oho" segments).

Thunder Bringer plays when Zeus introduces Hephaestus and of course when he murks Athena.

I never noticed before but Athena actually pulls Aphrodite into Quick Thought to ask her to reconsider and thEN ARES BREAKS IT/USES HIS OWN THING?? AND THEN ATHENA OVERPOWERS IT TO SAY HER PIECE??!! GOD GAMES IS AWESOME WHAT THE FUCK.

When Athena is "killed(?)" by Zeus, a piano version of Warriors of the Mind plays, as well as a quick "I wanna be legendary".

According to Jorge, Penelope's instrument (a viola) does not appear in Suffering but rather a mallet, as it is still the instrument of SOMEONE he cares about (Polites :(((), just not his wife.

The musical features a "Danger Motif" that appears whenever there is a threat. This can be heard when the men attack the city in The Horse and the Infant. In Ruthlessness, Poseidon's name is sung to that tune as he is a very present and very powerful danger.

Circe has a tune/kick drum combo that repeats across all three of her songs.

During Odysseus' speech in Puppeteer, a lyre is used, indicating that Hermes is listening in.

Eurylochus doesn't have an accompanying instrument of his own, however he does always have the voices of the crew to harmonize with him since "he always tries his best to protect them". Jorge wth.

When Eurylochus pulls his sword against Odysseus in Mutiny, an electric guitar is used (Odysseus' instrument) as he is trying to take Odysseus' place. JORGE. WTH.

When Odysseus tries to reason with Eurylochus as his friend in Luck Runs Out, it has the same type of progression as Open Arms, showing that Polites' belief still holds over Odysseus.

[epic-kotlc-crossover]

Warrior of The Mind

This is the fifth chapter of the EPIC/ KOTLC crossover! Hope you like it :D (It's also the last chapter in the Troy saga! Onto Cyclops!! That'll start getting posted on Monday)

Tags: @justalunaticfangirl @myfairkatiecat @bookwormgirl123 @thesfromhms @ham-cheese-toastie

Tick

Tock

Tick

Tock

That was the first thing that should've alerted Fitz to Athena arriving.

As he stepped away from Dex, promising to 'greet the world with open arms,' time seemed to slow.

That was his second sign. As the goddess descended gracefully down in front of him, war helmet on as always, he'd expected congratulations for winning the war.

Or killing the infant.

"Athena!" he called out with a smile. It faltered after seeing her stormy expression.

"What is going on with you? Have you forgotten everything I've taught you?" She snapped. Fitz frowned. He couldn't think of anything he'd done that would've disappointed the goddess. "You've softened, Fitz. Let me remind you."

Athena waved her hands, and Fitz's vision darkened, and all he could feel was the whipping of cold wind.

Goddess of wisdom... master of war... the words seemed to echo through the blackness.

I had a challenge! A test of skill! The blackness dissapered with a flash of light, and Fitz found himself looking at a very familiar man.

But then a boy came, for the thrill! Fitz realized with a start that the man was him, only twenty years before.

He was watching his first meeting with Athena.

"Show yourself!" The younger Fitz called out, and, after a pause, added, hesitantly, "I can see you."

The air in front of his younger self rippled, and Athena appeared. She hadn't changed, Fitz realized, in style or ideals.

He watched the interaction, staring at himself fondly.

That Fitz didn't know about everything that was going to happen. He wasn't guilty. He didn't lie awake at night, thinking of everything he should have changed.

Why was Athena showing him this?

She'd said something about 'growing soft,' but he didn't understand how. Fitz had been to war—and killed so, so many people—what could've set this off?

"Don't be modest, I know you're a goddess, Athena." his younger self proclaimed with a self assured grin.

Athena straightened and offered little Fitz a hand, replying, "I'd be happy to be your mentor—"

"Or a friend?" Fitz interjected hopefully. Athena shrugged noncommittally.

"We'll see how it ends."

Another flash of light and scene changed again, to him and Athena walking down a dirt path that Fitz knew led to the sea.

He could remember them talking about changing the world and making everything better. At least that hadn't changed.

"Why are you showing me this?" Fitz yelled out over choruses of 'we are the warriors of the mind!'' "Athena?"

Everything faded to black once again, and Athena appeared in front of him.

"I still intend to help you, Fitz. Don't forget that you are a warrior of the mind. You need to focus and turn off your heart. Emotions complicate things. Your heart is not the decision maker. You are."

She stared down at him for five seconds, but Fitz couldn't bring himself to cower. He would prove himself to her, just like he always had.The ticking noise slowly faded and as Fitz could feel himself return back to the ship, Athena sent one last message.

Don't disappoint me...

[coochiequeens]

As modern science and better archeology methods reexamine historical sites more of women’s history will emerge

by Sarah Durn September 27, 2021

  

The National Museum of Stockholm's Ride of the Valkyries was painted during the Victorian period, which saw renewed interest in Vikings. Fine Art Images / Heritage Images / Getty Images

In Atlas Obscura’s Q&A series She Was There, we talk to female scholars who are writing long-forgotten women back into history.

In 1871 on the sleepy island of Birka, Sweden, Hjalmar Stolpe, a Swedish entomologist turned archaeologist, discovered the lavish grave of a Viking warrior. Around the seated body were the remains of two sacrificed horses, as well as a double-edged sword, a scramasax (a long, thin knife), a bow, a shield, and a spear—every weapon known to the Viking world. It was an astonishing find, especially since Viking warrior graves rarely contain more than three weapons. There was also a full set of hnefatafl, the board game often known as Viking chess, which indicates the strategic thinking and authority of a war leader. A thousand years ago, the site would’ve abutted the Warrior’s Hall, where a garrison lived to protect the bustling Viking town of Birka. The weapons, game pieces, location: Everything told scholars that the man buried in what is known as grave Bj 581 was a prominent, well-respected Viking warrior. No one was really prepared when DNA tests were conducted in 2017 and a new story began to emerge. This was a prominent warrior, all right, but the occupant of Bj 581 wasn’t a man. She was a woman.

Viking historian Nancy Marie Brown’s new book, The Real Valkyrie: The Hidden History of Viking Warrior Women, explores what life might have been like for the warrior woman of Bj 581.

Using more evidence from the recent tests conducted on the remains, Brown traces her journey from Norway to the British Isles to Kiev then, finally, to Birka. Brown imagines the unnamed warrior meeting other prominent Viking women, such as Gunnhild, Mother of Kings, or Queen Olga, ruler of the Rus Vikings in Kiev. She also explores the Viking sagas and contemporary sources with a new lens.

How did you initially get interested in Vikings—and female Vikings in particular?

When I went to college, I actually wanted to study fantasy writing and, you know, learn to write like Tolkien. I learned very quickly that that was not appropriate for an English major in the 1970s, so I decided to study what Tolkien studied, and he was a professor at Oxford University, teaching Old English and Old Norse. So I started reading all of the Icelandic sagas that I could find in translation. And when I ran out of the English versions, I learned Old Norse so that I could read the rest of them.

One of the things I liked about [the sagas] the most was that they had really interesting women characters. There’s a queen in Norway who appears in about 11 sagas, Queen Gunnhild, Mother of Kings. She led armies. She devised war strategy. And then I was looking at the valkyries and the shieldmaids and thinking, you know, these are really interesting people that have always been considered to be mythological.

So when I learned in 2017 that one of the most famous Viking warrior burials turned out to be the burial of a woman, that just absolutely dazzled my imagination.

Is this the first confirmed grave of a female warrior that we have?

This is the one that has the best proof. There are one or two others that have since been DNA tested and proven to be female. But in each of these cases, it’s hard to say if the person in the grave, whether male or female, actually was a warrior, or if the object that we are interpreting as a weapon was used for hunting or for some other purpose.

In this case, it’s every Viking weapon known to history. So it’s such a clear result. And the DNA was so completely female.

When Stolpe discovered the Viking gravesite Bj 581 in 1887, he assumed the remains were of a man. That assumption was shown to be wrong 140 years later. Rapp Halour / Alamy Stock Photo

What do we know about the life of the Viking warrior woman in Bj 581?

In 2017, by testing her bones and her teeth, [scholars] could say she was between 30 and 40 years old when she died. They could also tell that she ate well all of her life. So she came from a rich family or maybe even a royal one. She was also quite tall, about 5’7”. By the minerals in her inner teeth, [scholars can determine] she may have come from southern Sweden or Norway, and also that she went west maybe as far as the British Isles before her molars finished forming. She didn’t arrive in Birka until she was 16.

We also have her weapons and a little bit of clothing that were found in the grave. And these link her to what is known as the Vikings’ East Way, which was the trade route from Sweden to the Silk Road.

We can link, through the artifacts and through the bones, that she could have traveled from as far west as Dublin to as far east as at least Kiev in the 30 to 40 years of her life.

How do we know that there were Viking warrior women?

They are mentioned many, many, many times in the literature. In most cases, they have been dismissed as mythological because, of course, we know warriors were men. But we don’t know that. That is an assumption that is based on traditional Victorian ideas that because women are mothers, they’re nurturing, they’re peacemakers, and they don’t fight.

That’s not historically true. Women have always fought. And they appear in most cultures until the 1800s, when Viking studies and archaeology pretty much started. So we sort of have this problem of bias in our earliest textbooks.

But now we have actual scientific proof of one warrior woman in the Viking Age. And as the scientists who did the study say they would be very surprised if she was the only one.

This small female Viking warrior figurine discovered in Harby, Denmark, has been interpreted as a mythological valkyrie. John Lee / National Museum of Denmark

There’s this assumption that the warrior men of myth must have been based on real people, but it’s not the same for the mythical warrior women. Why is that?

It’s just an assumption based on what people think women are like. Most of the material we have from the Middle Ages was written by men, and most of the material we have until the 1950s was written by men, and women are slowly making their way into the field of Viking scholarship. But many of them are still working under the assumptions that they were taught.

I noticed when I went back and reread some of the sagas in Icelandic that there wasn’t this clear distinction between the warrior women being mythological and the warrior men being human. When you actually look at the old Norse text, there’s a lot of words that have been translated as “men” that actually mean “people,” but it’s always been translated as “men” because it’s a warrior situation.

If you’re translating, you have to make decisions and sometimes your decisions have repercussions that you don’t expect, like writing women out of the history.

By the time Hjalmar Stolpe excavated Bj 581, he had become adept at recognizing where graves could be found in the hummocky Birka landscape. WS Collection / Alamy Stock Photo

Is it possible for historians to remove all of those biases?

No, I don’t think it is. I think we all are looking through our own lenses. But we have to revisit those sources every generation to see past biases. So when you have layer after layer after layer of removing biases, you may get closer to the truth.

What most surprised you in the course of researching your book?

One of the controversies right now in Viking studies is should we really be talking about men and women at all? Maybe there were all kinds of different genders. We don’t know if there were more than two genders in the Viking age. Maybe it was a spectrum.

If you look at this one group of sagas called the Sagas of Ancient Times that are often overlooked because they have all these fabulous creatures in them, like dragons and warrior women. It’s really interesting [because] these girls grow up wanting to be warriors. They’re constantly disobeying and trying to run off and join Viking bands. But when they do run off and join the Viking band, or, in another case, become the king of a town, they insist on being called by a male name and use male pronouns.

So it was very shocking to me to go back and read it in the original and say, “Wow, all this richness was lost in the translation.”

[that-tall-queer-bassist]

Live Reaction of my SECOND listen through of EPIC: The Musical

okay i want my Thoughts after finishing the first listen through today (over the course of a week) but i need to listen Again so here we fucking go peoples. Reblogging with each new saga to keep things organized a bit :)

The Troy Saga

we start!!

The Horse And The Infant

"little ajax stay back" 🥺

"You're not ready"

"I could raise him as my own" I WISH PLEASE

the whole section with overlapping dialogue of possibilities and the tragic ends they would lead to

i wanna know who that guy speaking was i don't remember

Just a Man

its so tragic how this infant reminds him of his own son like what the fuck thats so fucked up how could jorge do this to us. OW.

"close your eyes and spare yourself the view" Q^Q

this whole song gets me. especially paired with WolfyTheWitch's animatic to it. augh.

GOD knowing that all of these metaphors come back later and become Relevant i CANT OMG

"Forgive me" is probably the worst thing he could say because i do and i can't at the same time, but he's not asking me to forgive him, he's asking this INFANT who he KILLED AUGH

Full Speed Ahead

600 men. 601 with Odysseus

god this really is just setting the scene huh. and well!!

He really did wanna go home as fast as he could

OH MY GOD MY BOI I FORGOT ABOUT HIM AND HIS OPEN ARMS

his voice is like. angelic. wow.

"and if we don't return, then 600 men can make this place burn" i forgot about that woah

Open Arms

"My friend" my heart hurts

"This life is amazing when you greet it with open arms" oh sweet boy

the sound of a sword being drawn is so good omg

"600 friends are waiting for us to show our faces" XD bruh not subtle

EVEN LESS SUBTLE

Polites i love you

"My friend" you are friends yes please remember that please

Oh i forgot the lotus eaters sent them to "this food filled cave"

"I see in your face there is so much guilt in your heart" AUGH MY BOY

the repeating by odysseus...

"You can relax my friend" at the end like AUGH thats so GOOD and then the immediate next song being Warrior of the Mind !!! very good very tragic

Warrior of the Mind

immediately the music change raises the tension

the way Odysseus immediately knows who she is, hears or something, i love it so much.

"Have you forgotten your purpose? Let me remind you." AUGH hes not a man, but a tool

He seems like more of a conquest or trophy than a person to her, which is fair given he's a mortal and she's a goddess but damn this really does just keep happening to him, being a gods plaything huh?

THIS CHORUS GOES SO SO HARD THOUGH

"Maybe one day he'll follow me and we'll make a greater tomorrow" the way she sings this makes my brain so happy

the whole chorus just scratches my brain in such a good way omg

the slowness. "show yourself"

HIS LITTLE LAUGH

the whole exchange honestly

"nah, don't be modest, i know you're a goddess, so lets be honest-" YES YES YES

"YOU ARE ATHENA" WOOOOOOOOOOOO CLAPPING CHEERING

his description of her is great

"goddess and man, bestest of friends!" "We'll see where it ends" "okay" asdghkjsa im wheezing

THEIR DUET

I LOVE THEM SO MUCH

"ending on "don't disappoint me" is so mean

[writershelper]

EPIC SAGA SENTENCE STARTER ASK MEME - PART 1: THE TROY SAGA.

please note: some lyrics have been changed slightly to be gender neutral. please feel free to change pronouns, etc. - this is part 1 / part 2

They’ve killed us slowly

Your family wonders where you’ve been

They’re growing old, and yet you’re still here

Do what I say, and you’ll see them again

What do you live for?

What do you try for?

What do you wish for?

What do you fight for?

I fight for us

Who was that?

I don’t think you’re ready

Say no more

I know that I am ready

If you don’t end them now, you’ll have no one left to save

You can say goodbye

They’ll find you wherever you go

I’d rather bleed for you

I’m down on my knees for you

I’m begging, please… 

Please don’t make me do this

The blood on your hands is something you won’t lose

Will these actions haunt my days?

Is the price I pay endless pain?

How could I hurt you?

Close your eyes, and spare yourself

I’m just trying to go home

I’m fighting for my life

I would trade the world to see my family again

When does a person become a monster?

When does the reason become the blame?

Forgive me

We’ve run out of supplies

Something feels off here

We don’t have time to wait

I say we strike first

We should try and find a way where no one ends up dead

Give me until sunrise

We can make this whole place burn

You can relax, my friend

I can tell you’re getting nervous

Think of all that we have been through

We’ll survive

I know that you’re tired

I know that you’re tired of the war

I know that you’re tired of the bloodshed

Tell me, is this how we’re supposed to live?

Why should we take when we could give?

You can show a person that you trust them

Whatever we face, we’ll be fine

Stay back, I’m warning you

I wish that I could say that I agree

It controls your mind

It never lets you free

Could you tell me where there’s other food to eat?

There is so much guilt inside your heart

Have you forgotten the lessons I taught you?

Have you forgotten to turn off your heart?

This is not you

Have you forgotten your purpose?

Maybe one day they’ll follow me

I know they’ll change the world

I know you’re watching me

Show yourself

How can you see through my spell?

I was lying, and you fell for my bluff

Two can play at this game

If you’re looking for a mentor, I’ll make sure your time’s well spent

Don’t forget that you are a warrior

Don’t disappoint me

[wolfnight2012]

EPIC!Polites had to die

(Hear me out!)

Anyways, i talked a bit about how Polites literally moves the plot in EPIC ( here) but this time I'm sorta gonna mirror the arguments.

So, this is all gonna come across as Polites favoritism, but (though you don't have to agree with what I say) know my arguments are taken straight from the text.

So, why does Polites have to die?

Because EPIC cannot happen without his death (for two reasons)

Number One

As I state in my linked post, Polites is the only person Odysseus is shown to listen to.

Odysseus changes his mind/his actions 3 times in Act 1.

Zeus: Odysseus would not have killed that infant if Zeus did not tell him to. Zeus tells him the infant will kill Odysseus' loved ones in the future & with a heavy heart, Odysseus acquiesces.

Tiresias: Odysseus would not have become the monster if the prophet had not told him he would never get home + Penelope was with a murderer.

Polites: at the end of "Open Arms" Odysseus starts to seriously consider Polites' words (that's why he sings Polites' words "Greet the world with open arms" back to him.) Thats also why that's the moment Athena chooses to come berate Odysseus. Odysseus has been guilt-ridden since Astyanax, but Athena chooses this moment, when Odysseus is with Polites & listening to him, to tell him he's "forgotten to turn off [his] heart."

One of these instances is not like the other.

Unlike with Zeus or Tiresias, Polites is not threatening Penelope/Odysseus' family.

These are also not the only instances of someone trying to change Odysseus' mind (or trying to tell him what to do)

Odysseus disregards Athena's instructions to kill Polyphemus & when she doubles down on his recklessness/disappointing actions, Odysseus essentially tells her to fuck right off.

Odysseus refuses to give Poseidon a real apology (not saying it would have saved his crew or not, but Odysseus clearly thought it would, hence him playing along)

Odysseus doesn't allow himself to be tempted by Circe in order to save his men (not saying this is a bad thing btw!!)

And then there's Eurylochus.

Eurylochus, notably, tries to reason with change Odysseus' mind a whopping Five Times in Act 1.

Full Speed Ahead: "We don't know what's ahead"

Remember Them: "Captain, we should run"

Storm: "Captain, we will capsize with these waves, our fleet will fail"

Luck Runs Out: (literally the entire song)

Puppeteer: "Think about the men we have left, before there're none"

And Odysseus listens a total of zero times.

And yet, unlike with "Luck Runs Out" when Polites tries to tell Odysseus to change his behavior/his mind/his way of thinking, Odysseus puts up a lukewarm resistance at best AND he sincerely considers Polites' words.

Number Two

Out of all the characters we've been introduced to this far (up to the Thunder Saga) Polites is the one who knows Odysseus best (AND the one he is closest to)

I know we only have 2-3 songs to establish Odysseus & Polites' relationship while Polites is alive (though he does very much haunt the narrative, even up to "Suffering" as Jorge recently-ish informed us) but OH BOY, is it Thoroughly established.

Full Speed Ahead:

The joy in Odysseus' voice when he greets Polites vs the more professional affection given to Eurylochus' entrance.

Not only the fact that Odysseus chooses Polites out of 600 men to scout the island with him, but that he choses only Polites. Either he can trust his life to Polites' skill as a warrior OR (more likely imo) he wants some alone time. And he feels he can be alone/himself with Polites.

Open Arms:

Polites immediately knows something's up with Odysseus but (unlike Eurylochus in "Luck Runs Out") he doesn't say anything in front of the crew, rather waiting until they're alone on the island. Either Polites has more tact than Eury OR (more likely imo) he knows Ody--enough to know he doesnt respond well to being called out in front of others or how to best approach a conversation about his mental state

Polites correctly calls out that Odysseus is tired of war (which Odysseus confirms in "Just a Man"), that he's stressed out ("Look at how you grip your sword, enough said"), and that something is eating at him ("I see in your face there is so much guilt inside your heart")

Odysseus never gets defensive with Polites or shuts down him down (unlike in "Luck Runs Out") despite the fact that Polites IS calling Odysseus out, (Just Like Eurylochus in LRO!) The most we get is a half-hearted/unconvincing "I'm fine, Polites" which makes ME think Ody isn't trying too hard to convince Polites, either because he knows he can't get one past his best friend or because he doesnt want to wear a mask, not around Polites.

((arguably!!)) Odyssues only goes to the cave/trusts the lotus-eater's information because of Polites (which is another instance of him being swayed by Polites or of the affection he holds for his friend being strong enough for him to want to please him)

Survive:

Polites' death is what causes Odysseus to freeze up/go into shock. Odysseus stops captaining his men & leaves them orderless (despite their pleas for him to resume command) solely because Polites dies (and we do have confirmation on this given that in the last live-stream, the stage directions during "Remember Them" tell us Odysseus is still staring at Polites' body up until Eurylochus snaps him out of it)

[edit]Underworld:

Odysseus becomes overwhelmed by the accusing voices of the underworld & starts to spiral (arguably starts having the beginnings of a panic attack)

Polites' voice snaps him out of it (listen to the change in the music/soundscape from "I keep thinking of the infant from that night" to "This life is amazing"

There is audible relief/hope in Odysseus' first "Polites." I hesitate to call it joy, but everything does become lighter

However, Polites CAN'T offer Odysseus comfort/support, since he's not really here/he's just a spirit stuck in his deathloop

Odysseus' 2nd "Polites" sounds dejected/small when he realizes Polites can't interact with him/stay

He was hoping for comfort/support! He heard Polites & the screams IMMEDIATELY quiet! His mood audibly lifts! Polites is canonically Odysseus' emotional/mental support, as seen in "Open Arms" (check out my super long post analyzing "Open Arms" lyric by lyric here) and by how we are shown/told he's noticeably changed in the Ocean Saga (both by Eurylochus suddenly doubting Odysseus + the lyric "Everything's changed since Polites)

So, why do I think Polites had to die to keep the EPIC plot as is?

Well, given the information we have (and including no further speculation or headcanons) we know five things:

Odysseus trusts Polites

Odysseus cares deeply about Polites

Polites can effectively tell when something is bothering Odysseus

Polites can call Odysseus out without getting shut out/down

Polites can get Odysseus to listen/change his mind

Which tells me, Polites could have likely prevented everything past the blinding of Polyphemus.

We KNOW Polites' death is a large part of what causes Odysseus to shout out his name ("My friend is dead") but beyond that:

If anyone is going to tell something is eating at Odysseus in the Ocean Saga, it's Polites. (No other crew member tries to figure out how Odyssues is doing mentally/emotionally OR figures out what's bothering him beyond "Everything's changed since Polites") If Polites is alive, Odysseus isn't carrying all the weight on his own, because Polites will notice & reach out

Polites has a track record of getting Odysseus to listen. If they need to talk to him, it most likely wouldn't be Eurylochus stepping up if Polites lived

Odysseus trusts Polites. If they still get the windbag, Odysseus is letting Polites take a shift

If Polites lives, the plot of EPIC is diverted during the Ocean Saga at latest. Either Odysseus isn't made reckless with grief/anger & thus doesn't reveal his name. Or he doesn't become isolated/succumbs to his stress (and thus allows doubt to sow within the crew) because Polites is there to reach out. Or he trusts the windbag to Polites & they make it home to Ithaca.

Polites has to die to cement Odysseus' downward spiral.

Thank you for coming to my tedtalk.

[marichive]

𝐒𝐓𝐎𝐑𝐌𝐁𝐎𝐑𝐍 : 𝐏𝐀𝐑𝐓 𝐓𝐇𝐑𝐄𝐄

Writing / roleplay prompts collected from the POV chapters of Daenerys Targaryen in A Storm of Swords , the third book of the ASOIAF saga. Feel free to adjust pronouns / etc. as needed.

tw: dark & mature themes, death, violence, suggestive / sexual content

❝ He was a fool about that, and so much else. ❞

❝ Another year, or perhaps two, and he may be large enough to ride. ❞

❝ Is he lost again? ❞

❝ We are the ones who are lost. ❞

❝ How big will he grow? Do you know? ❞

❝ There are tales of dragons who grew so huge that they could pluck giant krakens from the seas. ❞

❝ That would be a wondrous sight to see. ❞

❝ They were bred for war, and in war they died. ❞

❝ It is no easy thing to slay a dragon, but it can be done. ❞

❝ Men are men. Dragons are dragons. ❞

❝ Did you ever meet my father? ❞

❝ Did you find him good and gentle? ❞

❝ He could be very harsh to those he thought his enemies. ❞

❝ A wise man never makes an enemy of a king. ❞

❝ Did you know my brother as well? ❞

❝ It was said that no man ever knew him, truly. ❞

❝ Go on. You may speak freely to me. ❞

❝ A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory. Or a lady’s favor knotted round an arm. ❞

❝ Be gentle, my knight. ❞

❝ I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior. ❞

❝ You would be wise to take his words well salted. ❞

❝ A queen must listen to all. ❞

❝ One voice may speak you false, but in many there is always truth to be found. ❞

❝ I am still half a world away from home, but every hour brings me closer. ❞

❝ Even upon the sea queens take precedence over captains. ❞

❝ I am sorry to disturb your sleep. ❞

❝ I wonder if I might have a few private words? ❞

❝ A dutiful son pays his father’s debts. Even blood debts. ❞

❝ He might want me dead . . . if he recalls that I’m alive. ❞

❝ It might all have been a ploy to win your trust. ❞

❝ I need clever men about me if I am to win the throne. ❞

❝ Clever men hatch ambitious schemes. ❞

❝ He means well. He does all he does for love. ❞

❝ It seems to me that a queen who trusts no one is as foolish as a queen who trusts everyone. ❞

❝ Your path is dangerous, I will not deny that. ❞

❝ He is not what he pretends to be. ❞

❝ I am his queen, not his woman. ❞

❝ You . . . you should not have . . . ❞

❝ I should not have waited so long. ❞

❝ I should have kissed you every night and every day. You were made to be kissed, often and well. ❞

❝ That was not fitting. I am your queen. ❞

❝ My queen, and the bravest, sweetest, most beautiful woman I have ever seen. ❞

❝ There is no man in all the world who will ever be half so true to you as me. ❞

❝ They might be adequate to my needs. ❞

❝ He has larger breasts than I do. ❞

❝ I call that madness, not courage. ❞

❝ Even the bravest men fear death and maiming. ❞

❝ There are other ways to tempt men besides flesh. ❞

❝ What a soft mewling fool this one is. ❞

❝ Such wonders do not come cheaply. ❞

❝ Even those who bent their knees may yearn in their hearts for the return of the dragons. ❞

❝ I will gladly serve her . . . and service her as well, if she is more woman than she looks. ❞

�� Leave this place before your heart turns to brick as well. ❞

❝ The magisters and archons fed him wine and promises, but his soul was starved to death. ❞

❝ Better to come a beggar than a slaver. ❞

❝ There speaks one who has been neither. ❞

❝ Do you know what it’s like to be sold? I do. ❞

❝ He made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. ❞

❝ Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid? ❞

❝ Only lies offend me, never honest counsel. ❞

❝ I have a dragon’s temper, that’s all. You must not let it frighten you. ❞

❝ He has a good face, and great strength to him. ❞

❝ Could he be jealous that I have found another man to talk to? ❞

❝ No true knight would ever kiss a queen without her leave. ❞

❝ He wants to kiss me again, I see it in his eyes. ❞

❝ You’re no bedslave. ❞

❝ The blood of my enemies I will shed gladly. The blood of innocents is another matter. ❞

❝ There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs. ❞

❝ I wanted an answer, not a compliment. ❞

❝ He fought valiantly, he fought nobly, he fought honorably. And he died. ❞

❝ I mean to prove a few things of my own. ❞

❝ I can give you freedom, but not safety. ❞

❝ All men must die, but not for a long while, we may pray. ❞

❝ He knows my moods too well. ❞

❝ You ought to be asleep. ❞

❝ You’ll need your strength. ❞

❝ I was alone for a long time. ❞

❝ I was such a small scared thing. ❞

❝ He should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn’t have done that. ❞

❝ Why do the gods make kings and queens if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves? ❞

❝ Some kings make themselves. ❞

❝ He was no true king. He did no justice. Justice . . . that’s what kings are for. ❞

❝ I dreamed a dream, no more. Go back to sleep. ❞

❝ A dragon is no slave. ❞

❝ The clever ones will see it for a chance to gauge my strength. ❞

❝ I am only a young girl and do not understand the ways of war, yet these odds seem poor to me. ❞

❝ I have heard that sellswords are notoriously unfaithful. ❞

❝ You bray like an ass, and make no more sense. ❞

❝ Woman? Is that meant to insult me? I would return the slap, if I took you for a man. ❞

❝ I would remember a man of such magnificence, I have no doubt. ❞

❝ You are worth fighting for, it is true. ❞

❝ I would gladly let you kiss my sword, if I were free. ❞

❝ And perhaps a kiss besides, eh? Or more than a kiss? For a man as magnificent as me? ❞

❝ I will like the taste of your tongue, I think. ❞

❝ You have a big thirst. ❞

❝ If blood is what you wish, let it flow. ❞

❝ You shall rue this arrogance. ❞

❝ Why? Because you are so beautiful. ❞

❝ I count no day as lived unless I have loves a woman, slain a foeman, and eaten a fine meal. ❞

❝ My sword is yours. My life is yours. My love is yours. My blood, my body, my songs, you own them all. I live and die at your command. ❞

❝ Then live, and fight for me. ❞

❝ Is that what you’re telling me? You are the only man I should ever trust? ❞

❝ Do you think I’m still some virgin girl, that I cannot hear the words behind the words? ❞

❝ You have been a better friend to me than any I have known. ❞

❝ I honor and respect and cherish you. ❞

❝ I do not desire you, and I am weary of your trying to push every other man in the world away from me. ❞

❝ It will not make me love you any better. ❞

❝ I cannot sleep when men are dying for me. ❞

❝ Your place is here by me. ❞

❝ A man who fears battle wins no victories. ❞

❝ I will see them. I will see every one, and count them, and look upon their  faces. And I will remember. ❞

❝ It’s his city I want, not his meager manhood. ❞

❝ I will not march my people off to die. ❞

❝ Can I send men to die in the dark on such a slender hope? ❞

❝ Take me back to my tent. Please. ❞

❝ I have told you no lies. Yet there are truths I have withheld, and for that and all my other sins I can only beg your forgiveness. ❞

❝ What truths have you withheld? ❞

❝ The crow calls the raven black, and you speak of betrayal. ❞

❝ If he sent you to kill me, why did you save my life? ❞

❝ I am yours, if you will have me. ❞

❝ There has been an informer by your side selling your secrets. ❞

❝ Do all gods feel so lonely? ❞

❝ She is brave as well. She had to be, to survive the life she’s lived. ❞

❝ I am going to take you home one day. I swear it. ❞

❝ I am content to stay with you. ❞

❝ Is this the face of a conqueror? ❞

❝ Harsh justice is still justice. ❞

❝ The widows will curse me all the same. ❞

❝ To prove his faith, he offers to seal your alliance with a marriage. ❞

❝ He means to put them all aside if you consent to wed him. ❞

❝ Whatever I do, all I make is death and horror. ❞

❝ I must be strong. I must have fire in my eyes when I face them, not tears. ❞

❝ Some truths are hard to hear. ❞

❝ Why ask for truth if you close your ears to it? ❞

❝ He once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. ❞

❝ So I am a coin in the hands of some god, is that what you are saying? ❞

❝ You warned me against everyone except yourself. ❞

❝ I am no man’s creature. ❞

❝ I must not weep. I must not. If I weep I will forgive him. ❞

❝ You are trembling. ❞

❝ I wish I could have known him. ❞

❝ If I want him, I need only say so. ❞

❝ Never lie to me. Never betray me. ❞

[untoldreader]

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