#Thai pronouns

[absolutebl]

thai language question! what do tongthap and atom call each other in MLMU TH? it sounds like ‘nai’ or maybe ‘ngai’? it’s translated to both of their names several times on the YT subs. i’ve tried to look it up but i’m not sure i’m hearing it right 🙈

Thai pronoun: Nai

They are indeed using nai. Hold on I know I posted about that one at some point... AH HA here it is:

you want this section: (but I'll c&p it over here add to it at the bottom)

Nai & the Mafia 

So in 2022 Thai BLs seriously started moving setting outside of the school systems and thus added new pronouns (for us watchers) into the mix. KinnPorsche, Even Sun, and Unforgotten Night all use the pronoun nai (นาย) for you between men. Like many honorifics & pronouns, it’s derived from a minor title of nobility. In the 19th century it was declared the official courtesy title for adult males - regarded as a direct translation of “Mr”. 

It has several different uses today. 

As a title, it only appears before the real given name (not surname), in official/formal contexts, e.g. when writing down one’s name on an exam paper, job application, or government form. If used with a nickname, it implies a bit of irony (like a teacher calling out a misbehaving student). 

As a pronoun, it’s usually an informal second-person pronoun used with males of equal status. It’s a decidedly non-rude word, so it’ll be used among friends/classmates if they don’t feel close enough to use gu/mueng (or if a person just doesn’t use rude pronouns, like swear words there are people who don’t feel comfortable ever saying guu/mueng). 

Rao/nai as pronouns used to be the default mode of address on TV before gu/mueng became acceptable to broadcast in the 2010s. 

When used by females, nai is pretty much equivalent to males using ter with females - so an old fashioned but intimate and sweet, loving. 

On TV, the use of ter/nai is probably most often associated with straight dramas in the acquaintance phase of courting. 

Nai also has the meaning “boss” (similarly to the combined form เจ้านาย (jao nai/chao nai). If it’s being used as a pronoun in a more formal or deferential context (like organized crime), it is used in this sense. 

Usage number 2 & 6 are the ones we see in Thai BL. All that said I understand as a tourist in Thailand, you will hear nai but not all that often. It’s fine to use khun instead/back, but good to know to identify nai. 

Nai & My Love Mix Up

So My Love Mix Up is using #2.

With adult males, nai is actually often paired with chan. (I know, right, but it's what they use. See any of the mafia shows.)

But in this high school setting, Atom & Kongthap seem to be using pom or sometimes even tan. (I haven't touched on tan at all because I find it the most confusing pronoun.)

Atom & Half use guu/mueng. Atom use rao/name with Mudmee, and she does they same with him. Although I think she shifts to chan with Half when they get closer.

Kongthap doesn't seem to ever use informal. Even Half uses nai with him.

So I think the use of polite nai in this relationship is being dictated by Kongthap's character's reserved gentlemanly stiffness (much as in the original show). In other words, were it not for Kongthap's personality, this show in this setting (and with this pair) would be using guu/mueng. But because of the original IP and the extreme reserve of Ida in Kieta Hatsukoi (who also uses quite formal Japanese) we are seeing a linguistic characterization of one half of a couple carry through to the tenor of the whole relationship.

In other words, the use of nai was dictated by Kongthap's personality.

Frankly put, Kongthap would simply not use guu/mueng so they had to find some other way for these two to communicate. Rao/ter is too sweet and cute and old fashioned out the gate (these boys could graduate to it, I suppose, like in college or after).

Now they might have used khun instead of nai. If this were set in uni or the office that would have worked fine. Or even if this were a high school in Bangkok. But I'm not surprised they reached for nai.

In fact, since the announcement of the adaptation I was curious about how they were going to approach Kongthap's pronouns. I thought they might make Kongthap older to solve the issue with phi but they wanted to do the "going away to college together?" part of the plot, so yeah... nai is the solution.

This couple sounds a bit stiff and distanced from each other when speaking together as a result, but I understand why the script chose it.

Hope that explains.

(source)

[lurkingteapot]

This is the single best English language summary/overview of different, relatively common Thai pronouns I've found to date. The article was originally compiled by Duke Language School founder Bingo (Arthit Juyaso); you can also read the original three-part article at the internet archive here: [1] [2] [3]

[absolutebl]

I do harp on this a lot. I devoutly believe no foreigner should EVER use guu/meung

My Thai bestie, who I have known for over a decade and who is the same age as me, can’t bring herself to use them EVER. 

It’s a lot like peppering your English vocabulary with profanity. It works only in VERY specific circumstances and still there are personalities who will never do it. 

Guu/mueng has only been allowed on TV in Thailand for a very short amount of time. 

Today I’m feeling well informed, because P’ @absolutebl taught me right at the beginning of my Thai BL life that you don’t ever use “Gu” and “Meng”…and what Mek seems to be implying in his thread is that it really has become an affectation of BL and less actually regular linguistic behavior.

In the following tweet Mek mentions that he really only ever uses it when he’s acting as a character…

[lord-yabadoo-rules-all]

Hello hello everyone!! Long time no see :) I've had this frans in my head for YEARS...I started the character design sheet last year (or was it two years ago?) but recently decided to get off my ass and finish it! So here's a product of hard, August work!

I'm kinda sad to see so many of my frans peers gone, but I hope they're doing well! While I probably won't be some huge online presence going forwards, I'm still excited to support the new gen while I can!

ANYWAYS!! This is my interpretation of HT frans! (og creator @/horrortalecomic) that takes place around a decade after Frisk's escape from the underground. Their life kinda goes downhill fast though, as the combined survivor's guilt, insane trauma after battling the horror known as Omega Flowey, and the sheer lack of a support system just kinda destroys them in that period of time. I won't dwell too much on that time period, though! After moving away from the og Mt. Ebbot city, Frisk gets their fresh start, regularly going to therapy, taking their PTSD meds, managing a pretty popular bookshop downtown, and living with their super supportive roomates!

...And then the monsters are freed, which does throw Frisk into a whirlwind, but after a year or two they feel pretty safe. No monsters seemed to have moved to their city (especially since the monster population is significantly smaller than it was before), so everything would be okay. Until that fateful day...

here they are! fyi frisk's skin, eye and hair colour (except for the blonde streaks) apply to all my frisks now!

I'll add some info here i couldn't fit in the tags! -> They have a fun coworker dynamic where Frisk does NOT know he doesn't remember them so they're constantly walking on eggshells around him.

-> Frisk: Oh god he's after me he followed me for revenge but I deserve it oh god he's so mad at me

-> Sans: wow my manager is so kind and pretty and fun :)

-> Also sans is going to therapy, specifically to treat his memory problems,, so we don't know how long his positive view of Frisk will last...

[visualtaehyun]

I loved this episode so much 🥹 might write up another post about the emotional core of it and why I think it's the best ep. 11 I've ever seen, considering how much people love to bemoan the 'episode 11 curse' (which I think is just setting yourself up for disappointment). But right now, I'm just here to clarify some of the Thai, as per usual~

Disclaimer: not a native Thai speaker, still learning 🙏

Taking advantage

Aylin: มนุษย์พี่นิสัยไม่ดี ฉวยโอกาส /ma noot phi ni sai mai dee. chuay oh gaat/ = [That's] bad behavior, human senior. Seizing the opportunity. Luna, after getting kissed: นี่มันฉวยโอกาสกันนี่ /nee man chuay oh gaat gan nee/ = This is seizing the opportunity!

ฉวยโอกาส /chuay oh gaat/ is not the same as 'taking advantage of sb.' aka exploiting sb./sth. It means to grab/take a chance or seize an opportunity when it presents itself. In that sense, it's more taking advantage of a situation.

Love

ตั้งใจเรียนนะน้อง รักนะ /dtang jai riian na, nong. rak na/ = Study attentively, nong. Love [you]! รักรักรัก รักๆๆๆๆ /rak x8/ = Love [you] x8 จากพระจันทร์ของน้อง <3 /jaak phra jan khaawng nong/ = from your Moon <3 -> พระจันทร์ /phra jan/ = the Moon

The Sun

สัญญานะ พระอาทิตย์ /san yaa na? phra aa tit/ = Promise? Sun? -> พระอาทิตย์ /phra aa thit/ = the Sun

[moerusai]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Man Suang is a movie to watch multiple times to unpack all the lies and twists and unreliable narratives, to appreciate the performances and choices that each actor makes to stay true to their character among such a big ensemble cast.

Even then, there are still nuances to catch with every rewatch (trust me, I'm on my fifth).

The lackluster English subtitle (partly due to the translator's negligence, but mostly due to the subtlety being lost in translation) certainly doesn't do the dialogues and the storyline justice.

So I think some of us, especially those from Western cultures, could do to sit down and contemplate a movie so rooted in a specific culture before sharing, frankly, insensible opinions on it.

[airenyah]

hello~ i was rewatching the THK trailer again and noticed something interesting: FadelStyle go from using formal/polite khun/pom pronouns -> informal/rude meung/guu later in the series.

In the trailer, I think I hear Fadel using them in the "I don't like being pursued" line and Style uses them when he says "Whenever I'm with you, you either make me feel so scared, or so damn safe".

I was wondering if you had any Thoughts about that? I was surprised they use rude pronouns when it looks like KantBison keep using khun/pom throughout. Do you think the rude pronouns a sign that FadelStyle are closer or more a feature of their personality/dynamics?

I'm still very confused about how any of the pronoun stuff works, so I apologies if this doesn't make any sense. ^^;;

ah, it's funny you should send me this ask because only last night before i went to sleep did i ramble in a group chat about the pronoun use in ep1 😂

disclaimer: i'm not a thai native speaker and i actually get kinda anxious talking about the thai language publicly out of fear of getting something embarrassing wrong lmao. calling fellow language nerd @visualtaehyun as well as Known Native Speakers™ @recentadultburnout and @happypotato48 for double checks and potential corrections in case i'm blabbering bullshit at any point <3

yeah, in the trailer it seemed to me that fadel and style were consistently using guu/mueng for each other except for when style was trying to flirt with fadel on purpose (as in, when he's flirting for kant and the car, not when he's saying flirty or romantic shit bc he genuinely likes fadel now. or at least that's what i thought was going on upon watching the trailer for the first time kfkdkfdkjkjfd)

so when i watched ep1 i was actually kinda surprised bc i hadn't expected them to consistently start out using phom/khun with each other at first! which probably also comes from the fact that i hadn't expected them to meet on their own before kant hires style to hit on fadel hahaha (like, i didn't think the "my nipples are sensitive" scene would happen before kant sets style onto fadel. i thought at that point he was already very purposefully flirting with fadel for the sake of the mission, but instead it's all style himself just to get on fadel's nerves 😂)

anyway, in ep1 fadel and style use pretty much only phom/khun with each other EXCEPT for style at three very specific points:

he uses "guu" to refer to himself at the very end of the scene of their first meeting when fadel drives off and style shouts something about fadel scolding him like a dad when fadel has left already. i'm like 90% sure i hear him say "guu" in that specific sentence

you probably caught him call fadel "nong" to be an extra little shit when he sat down and made fadel get him those beers

when fadel manoeuvers style out of the restaurant and style is raging he uses phom/khun until the very last sentence where the subs say "i'm gonna take you out!". unfortunately i can't understand the entire sentence that well but he starts the sentence with "guu" and i'm fairly sure i hear the words "เป็นแฟนกู" [bpen faen guu] which translate to "be my boyfriend" and so i'm guessing he's saying something along the lines of "i'll make you my boyfriend" or "you will be my boyfriend" (calling a native speaker to pls transcribe that sentence for me thank youuu 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻)

so we see that style uses the rude pronoun set guu/mueng when he's annoyed (no. 1) and when he's seriously pissed (no. 3). other than that he sticks to formal/polite pronouns throughout the first episode

however, we know that they're gonna be using guu/mueng for each other regularly at some point from the trailer and there's also that scene in the promo for next episode where fadel asks style who sent him: they're both using guu/mueng in the "who sent you?" "i like you" exchange

so now the question is when and why do they switch from polite to rude pronouns? personally i'm speculating that fadel is gonna start using guu/mueng with style once he's seriously fed up and annoyed by style. bc rude pronouns aren't just used to show closeness/intimacy but also when, you know, you're actively trying to be rude. and i could see fadel switch to the rude pronouns for the exact reason of being rude on purpose in order to emphasize his disdain for style and to give him a hint to fuck off. and i could see style going along with the pronoun switch bc he sure ain't intimidated by fadel and won't go away that easily hahaha

and if that really does happen then i could see them just sticking to the rude pronouns from that moment on, since these pronouns can be used in an informal way too and it does fit their dynamic

also, i just went and rewatched the trailer bc i wanted to see if there were any scenes in which fadel and style use phom/khun for each other that we haven't seen yet and yeah, all the scenes from the trailer in which they do use the polite pronouns are scenes that we in fact all got to see in ep1 already. then we have the "good morning krub" scene happening next episode, which i'm guessing is gonna happen before fadel corners style in the locker room. and i'm guessing at that point they (or at least style) will still be using phom/khun since that's what they've established as their pronouns they use to their face (note how in the above list, style is never standing right in front of fadel, yelling directly into fadel's face when he uses "guu", so fadel likely isn't even aware of it). and i'm also guessing that then when fadel is eventually seriously fed up and suspicious of style, he changes to guu/mueng in order to show his anger and to basically declare a war with style. and style switches to guu/mueng too in order to fight back bc he sure as hell won't let fadel intimidate him

idk what language you have as a first/native language, but mine is german and in german we also differentiate between formal and informal pronouns. although for us it's by far (by FAR) not as nuanced as thai pronouns since we differentiate only two pronouns for the 2nd person: formal "you" (Sie - pronounced "see") vs informal "you" (du - pronounced "doo"). and in german it is absolutely considered rude if you use "du" to address a person you should be using "Sie" for. and you can absolutely show your negative emotions (like anger, annoyance, etc) towards your conversational partner who you should be addressing with "Sie" by suddenly switching to "du", esp when you're trying to start a fight. and yeah i can see fadel switching to rude/informal pronounce in this way, to kind of start a fight with style so style will finally fuck off

and in german, usually once you're on a "du" level of addressing each other (esp if you do it regularly and it wasn't just a one-off sentence in an argument or something) then you usually wouldn't go back to using the formal "Sie" for each other. of course in thai everything is muuuuch more complicated and complex than in german when it comes to pronouns, so this is kinda like comparing apples with oranges. but yeah, i can totally see fadel and style sticking to the rude/informal pronouns since they've already crossed that line. since they've already established that they can use this level (register) of language with each other, so why bother going back to a more formal/polite register?

we'll have to wait and see if i'm right with my speculation about the pronoun switch, though. of course it could happen totally differently than what i think (who knows, maybe they'll hop between guu/mueng and khun/phom for a while depending on their moods, like, whether they're being civil to each other bc the given situation calls for it or whether style is actively hitting on fadel or whether they're annoyed/pissed at each other and basically challenging each other to a fight)

and i don't find it surprising that kant and bison would be using different pronouns for each other. they did meet under completely different circumstances and they have a completely different relationship to each other than fadel and style do

one thing thai and german pronouns have in common is that their usage depends heavily on who is talking to whom and also what situation/context the conversation is happening in. german speaking kids are taught that they have to address adults with the formal "Sie" pronoun unless they're given explicit permission by the adult to use the informal "du". german learners who take it up as a second language are taught that they need to use the formal "Sie" when talking to strangers. however, that doesn't reflect the reality at all. there are situation where you can immediately jump to the informal "du" without asking for permission first even when you don't know the person while if you met this very same person for the first time in a different situation you might have to call them "Sie" or else they'd be offended because using "du" would be very rude in this context

now if we look at bison and kant's first meeting... kant is trying to hit on bison. a rude pronoun that you'd use out of negative feelings or with peers/close friends seems a little inappropriate in this situation, don't you think? it would definitely have made the unsolicited advice sound even worse and more invasive, imo 😂

and also throughout the entire episode their goal is to be polite and friendly to the other person, since, you know, they're trying to get on the other person's good side in order to get something out of it. and even when (and after) they get to know each other, well, intimately, they don't really have a reason to be rude to each other or use more vulgar language, i feel like? UNLIKE fadel and style, who are actively trying to piss each other off

i'm not surprised that fadelstyle and kantbison use different sets of pronouns for each other since the couples have very different starting points with very different goals that require very different strategies in order to successfully get there

i hope i managed to explain it in a way that makes sense to you <3

[mephistopheleswasrobbed]

I'm happy to say, I thoroughly enjoyed this last episode of The Trainee. I like what they did with it, and I especially think the 5 year time skip works really well here. I like that Jane and Ryan got to gain more security in their life and stand on an even footing before really starting their relationship. I like that Jane is a lot more flirty now that he isn't Ryan's superior anymore. I like that Jane and especially Ryan actually look 5 years older at the end because time skips but everyone still looks the same just with a slightly different hairstyle and different clothes is kind of a pet peeve of mine (I guess this is the advantage of having a 30 year old actor play an early twenties character. So I guess the props should go to them making Gun look 5 years younger for the majority of the show? Either way, good job!)

All in all I think this is probably the most consistently good 2024 Gmmtv show to me so far and has beaten Wandee Goodday as my favourite of the bunch (so far because most of my most anticipated shows have not aired/finished yet). It's also just so nice to have a Gmmtv show that didn't seem to forget itself somewhere between the midpoint and the end. Those have been somewhat rare lately.

Anyway to leave this on a lighter note, while I loved every character on this show my most anticipated character from the pilot trailer has always been Baimon and he didn't disappoint one bit in the final product! Pompam has once more shown me why I absolutely adore him and I would like to petition Gmmtv to please just put Pompam in all the shows from now on. Everything is instantly better with Pompam in it. Make it happen, guys!

[tua-braindump]

Viktor is exclusively he/him so idk what your problem is

Okay, so I have a lot of things to say about this.

1. First of all, I didn't mean any offense using they/them for Viktor. I understand that doesn't absolve me of blame but I did not mean it maliciously.

2. Did you have to come on anon and be rude about it? You could have messaged me and I would have taken that criticism.

3. Where does it ever say Viktor is exclusively he/him? I based the pronouns off what Elliot Page uses, and he does use he/they.

4. LASTLY, VIKTOR IS A FICTIONAL CHARACTER AND THE SOURCE MATERIAL(THE SHOW) SAYS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THEIR PRONOUNS.

I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not trying to be a dick. I've learned that they/them can be invalidating for people who exclusively use other pronouns, so thank you for helping me learn that, which was something I did not know.

Please, if you have an issue with me, please either tell me directly, or if that is too much, just block me. Okay?

[daily-purple-character]

day 157!

mitzi! (here for sweethearts)

[wormteeth2004]

since realizing that i'm bigender I've noticed the immense lack of she/he or he/she pronoun pins anywhere that sells pronoun pins... :(

[idk-i-want-mcl-content]

Me rn:

(not mine)

[visualtaehyun]

Lots of brilliant, thoughtful, funny posts out there about today's BMF episode so I just wanna jump in with some Thai!

Disclaimer: I'm still learning but want to share my love for Thai more! So feel free to correct me or expand on anything 🙏

What Pisaeng says here is that he wants them to stop using the pronouns กู (guu) / มึง (mueng) that they have both been using with each other so far. From my experience watching Thai series, they're most common in male friendships but Not and Kwan use them with each other as well in this show! In most school and university settings, you'll hear it between guys all the time but they're actually quite rude. You might see parents in Thai shows scold their kids for using them. Here's Punn from Be Mine Superstar using กู (guu) / มึง (mueng) while he's fighting with his little brother in front of their mom and immediately-

You might see someone intentionally switch to these pronouns in anger, like Payu in Love in the Air when Stop spits on his bike. He repeats his sentence, just switches out the polite 2nd person pronoun คุณ (khun) for มึง (mueng).

Between friends they express closeness and there's a long list of Thai BL couples who start as friends or school mates and thus continue to use them after they start dating. But there's also lots who decide to change how they speak to each other. A compromise I see a lot is foregoing pronouns and using names (yes, you can refer to yourself and others by name in Thai, it gives a bit of an intimate or cute feeling though). Like super sweet Khabkluen and Daonuea from Star in My Mind (here Our Skyy 2) who call themselves and each other by Kluen and Dao and also use the polite ending particle ครับ (khab).

Now where the hell am I going with all of this?

After Pisaeng brings up the pronoun thing and Kawi goes "Like what?", I was expecting the option Names. But then Pisaeng pulls a sly happy face and I adjust to expecting เธอ (ter) maybe?? considering its frequent use in (love) songs and in some recent memes such as โอ้เธอหวานเจี๊ยบ (Oh ter! Waan jiab! = Oh you! SO sweet!) - if you at all follow GeminiFourth, you have certainly heard or read it before lol

What Pisaeng actually says though is the epitome of lover-cutespeak:

เตง (dtaeng), a version/shortening of ตัวเอง (dtua-eeng) which originally means 'oneself', and is mostly used along with the 1st person pronoun เค้า (kao), which itself is a version of a 3rd person pronoun. Confused? The idea here seems to be a Call me by your name/I am You, You are Me type of deal. The only couple I can remember off the top of my head who actually uses them is Liu and See-ew in The Warp Effect.

Moving on though! Kawi expectedly and hilariously shoots that down and:

...his 'you' here is มึง (mueng) again, to Pisaeng's disappointment lol

So Kawi repeats his question, using the polite 2nd person pronoun คุณ (khun) and the polite ending particle ครับ (khab), that he intentionally pronounces sweetly by elongating the vowel. Pisaeng responds by using the polite male 1st person pronoun ผม (pom) that works in lots of situations.

Maybe it's that I've been conditioned by too many university settings in Thai BL but I somehow didn't expect these friends-to-lovers university students to go with this choice (P'Waa managing to surprise me again). It reads as mature in a way? Like intentionally being not just polite but formal. It's a thing you might hear from parent characters/spouses but also just normal working adults, like Tan and Bun in Manner of Death. They continuously work towards building a long-lasting relationship while the show keeps subverting expected BL tropes left and right!

Throughout the rest of this episode, they omit pronouns where possible but Pisaeng starts using them repeatedly during dinner at the restaurant and in the preview they both use ผม (pom) / คุณ (khun) comfortably.

After many lines of omitted pronouns during the amusement park date, Pisaeng makes it a point to use ผม (pom) / คุณ (khun) right here, by the way:

[legendaryrooftopscene]

If you’re reading a fic in English about Thai characters, how do you feel about Thai words being part of it? For instance if I’m writing a fic and characters changing their pronoun usage is significant to the plot/characters, should it be included in the fic? (Ex: “I’m so tired, mom,” she said, accidentally slipping into calling herself noo, as if she was a little girl again).

[fellasleepinbaltimore]

everyone wants to talk about gendered this and gendered that, what about the beauty that come from the lack of gender neutrality what I mean is the way people still express non conformity even when neutral language is impossible

[airenyah]

"I'm starting to like it now" my guy, my dude, only an episode ago you were gonna threaten it with a gun