#Talia Hope

[mulhollanddriver]

Talia Hope by Brendon Burton

[smallandangry24]

To keep up with the trend:

Me and the bad bitch I pulled by being autistic:

Honorable Mention: Bruce Wayne

[puppetmaster13u]

Prompt 170

Once again on my Ras & Danny being training rivals thanks to time travel bullshit. 

Look, Danny knows about the league of Assassins, but he almost dies of laughter when he realizes it’s the modern name of the league of Shadows. He’s an adult now, has been for a while, he’s allowed to find the situation he’s found himself in amusing. Hell, his sparring buddy who is somehow still alive is laughing too. 

And no one else knows what’s going on, okay? This random man walked into their secret base, completely ignored the many assassins trying to stop him, and called their illustrious leader a “Little Bitch Man” and they are now fighting?

The fighting is familiar, but why the fuck is Ras cackling and saying things like “Ayreh Feek” back. Practically saying “Fuck you,” while laughing and oh Pit, they’re Bantering this is terrifying, why has Ras not won yet, why has this man not died yet and- bodies aren’t supposed to bend like that what the fuck- 

Ras on the other hand, has One friend, who is immortal like him, actually remembers the shit he complains about, is also down for saving endangered animals, and actually knows how to spar! It’s not a proper spar unless someone loses at least a hand that has to be reattached! And honestly, people nowadays should know that the proper greeting to an old friend is to instantly try to kill the other. 

[cathedralcomic]

tfw you have a crush on your bestie and she has no idea also you're both weird 4-5 month old kittens

[azulhood]

Alright, random idea about the Twin AU, or any AU where Danny is an Al Ghul. Everyone knows that Ra's has an entire army of assassins, but what about the dead assassins? I doubt Ra's is dipping everybody in the Lazarus pit.

So, what if they went to the ghost zone?

And then when Danny dies, these assassins, who are extremely loyal to the Al Ghul family, immediately start following him.

The main assassin in charge, I'm gonna call him Carl, whose been around since the very beginning of the league, who was Ra's right hand man, starts acting as Danny's second in command basically becoming his Alfred.

Carl orders some of the assassins to help Danny out with some small stuff, like distracting some of the rouges so he gets to school on time, killing the hotdogs in the fridge so the little prince doesn't die of poisoning, setting off a Fenton invention so Danny get make a getaway. He definitely orders them to not interfere in big fights, unless Danny really needs the help, as a way for Danny to learn how to fight.

Carl has no idea who the GIW is, but he's gonna find out and then he's gonna blackmail/threaten/unalive some people.

Danny doesn't even know that he's suddenly gained a ghost army, all he knows is that there's a few helpful ghosts hanging around that really hate hotdogs. And then when Danny becomes the ghost king, hoo boy. The assassins replace the old ghost kings army, set up their own system and chains of command just completely change everything. Carl takes FrightKnights place as the king's right hand man/ bodyguard, makes sure all the members of the royal family are safe and is ready to fist fight the time ghost if he makes one more attempt to get his job.

Danny: I wanna be an astronaut. Carl who has no idea what that is: Sure, just let me do some info gathering and blackmail some people. Danny: What? And imagine the batfams reaction.

[hello-eden]

-Stopped rebirth-

Pain, rage, work, sleep

pain, rage, work, sleep

a cycle that goes on and on and on.

Jason doesn't know how to say anything to his family anymore. He knows some of it's his fault for how he came back but he also refuses to believe it's entirely his fault. 

Jason knows he shouldn't come back all right; he knows the Lazarus Pit rewrote his original Resurrection. He has no idea how he knows that's what happened but he does. Memories that make no sense that are popping up on the outside of his vision. Seeing people and thinking of names that are not their own. Doing things that feel like a habit that he has never started.

Jason knows something has been wrong for a long time and he tries not to rage at his family for not seeing it. The days where he fakes missions and just lays on his bed in agony. Feeling as though he has been hit by a thousand bolts of lightning only for it to relent then start again.

For him to feel nothing when he sees the glowing green eyes in the mirror but anytime someone else brings them up he feels like he's on the brink of a breakdown. Hitting harder than he should when he confuses the people in front of him for others. The urge to fight whatever is in front of him whether it be Friend or Foe. The knowledge that he doesn't quite believe he's human anymore that he keeps to himself.

The bone deep terror that Jason feels whenever Bruce mentioned something Jason didn't have before. The rage that fuels Jason's very being whenever Bruce reminisces. Insults on the tip of his tongue that Jason feels like are not for Bruce. The feeling of wanting to cry in the arms of the only father figure he has ever felt safe with only for Bruce to show again that he is not safe.

Wanting to scream that he did not want this, that the bubbling green under his veins is more corrupt than even Ras himself knows. The knowledge that Bruce’s obsession with protecting his home city is the one thing that brought Jason back. Unfortunate knowledge that Jason holds that he could never tell Bruce because the self blame he will inflict on himself would slowly drive him to Madness.

The flinches that Jason sees whenever one of his siblings gets a little too close. The knowledge that he can never do anything about it. He will spew insults at Dick but they will never be seen as playful as he means them.

That he will never be able to play fight with Tim as he wants to as those instincts that told him to bond went too far.

He will never be able to get close with Stephanie as all she has ever heard has been his horror stories.

He will never be able to have a sister in Cass as she has been in the middle of his violence for far longer than she ever should have been.

He will never be able to get close with Damien again as every single member of their family has made sure they are never left alone in a room together.

Pain, rage, work, sleep, repeat

[ravenlilyrose]

Gotham does not want to lose one of Her children again. She's already gone to the trouble of bringing him back to life (a challenge to be sure, it took her months, but worth it for him, for them) and She was not about to let this... this... woman take him from Her again.

(She would not kill the woman, for the sake of the boy--tiny still and not yet fully Hers---the boy who was Her child's child and who would one day, she knew (because time was not linear, not to Her), also be one of Hers. For his sake, his mother would live.)

So, at the border of Gotham City (a purely political line; her true influence spread several miles more, and Her children would never be fully out of Her reach), Talia al Ghul steps over the city limits without so much as a thought, but Jason Todd--catatonic and being led by Talia's hand around his wrist--is stopped, as though he ran into a solid wall.

They are, for now, unobserved, and Talia tries thing after thing to get him through, getting more and more frustrated. Up until this point, she has not harmed Jason, but the moment she goes to grab his arm hard enough to bruise, a bubble pops up around him and she is thrown back. While the 'wall' at the city limits could not be seen, this bubble shimmers in unnamable colors. (Jason's eyes dart from place to place, following patterns and movements only he, so far, can see.)

Talia doesn't stop trying, but they now start to attract a crowd. Maybe Talia wasn't being as careful anymore, maybe her plan had depended on having been gone by now, or maybe Gotham drew some of Her people to this spectacle.

They watch, for a while, and a few even try to step through the bubble. It is fairly clear that the woman was trying to take the boy somewhere and that the boy was in no state to even realize what was happening. So, a few try to step in, but they also cannot pass through the bubble.

This is when Tim Drake comes along. I don't know when, exactly, Jason's resurrection falls in the timeline, so maybe he already has a plan, maybe he's already started to put it into play, but today, for once, he is doing something entirely mundane. Maybe he's on his way to school, or to the skate-park, or to a friend's house, but it has nothing to do with the local vigilantes.

Tim, the obsessive little stalker that he is, recognizes Jason immediately. A true Gothamite, he takes no more than a second to wonder about the resurrection before accepting it and moving on. Talia al Ghul he doesn't recognize, but he's fairly certain he would recognize anyone who should be taking Jason anywhere. Which means this woman shouldn't be. So Tim decides he's going to take Jason home to his dad. That should fix Batman.

Having decided that, Tim tucks his skateboard under his arm and walks toward Jason. He passes through the bubble like it isn't even there, and comes to a stop mere inches from the boy who would soon be his brother. (Bruce Wayne, elsewhere, gets an itch that would, were he in a better state of mind, have him starting to prepare the adoption papers.)

Despite not having been thrown into a Lazarus Pit, Jason is still taller than Tim, though by less here than he would be in other universes. So Tim is looking up at him. Jason's eyes drift to somewhere just over Tim's shoulder, but when Tim looks behind him, there's nothing there, so he figures that's just Jason acknowledging his presence as best he can at the moment.

"Hi, Jason. I can take you to your dad, if you want. Bruce?"

(Tim's planning to take him to Bruce whether or not he wants to go. It might be a little harder if Jason objects, but Tim has calculated, and it is the best plan for everyone. Still, it is polite to ask.)

At Bruce's name, Jason makes a soft humming noise and his eyes drift to Tim's forehead. Tim decides that's a yes.

Tim hooks the arm that's not carrying the skateboard through Jason's arm, and turns in the direction of Wayne Manor. (Talia, furious now, starts after them, but Gotham locks her into a bubble now, and moves it until it's outside the city limits. She can try all she wants, but Gotham is not going to let her back in.)

Probably, the citizens watching should stop the preteen? young teen? from wandering off with the older boy. Anywhere else in the world, someone would have tried. But this is Gotham. And these are Gothamites.

It was obvious to everyone that this was Gotham's doing. They had all gotten a sense for Her, one that Outsiders really didn't understand and Gothamites couldn't explain, but understood perfectly. This whole incident was clearly Her doing, and if She let that boy into the bubble, then She was perfectly happy to let him take the older one.

And none of them were going to argue with Gotham. To them, to every Gothamite, She was the highest authority. Over the law, over parents, over those pesky little things called morals. (Those who believed in a god would be hard-pressed to decide who they would obey if it came down to a decision between God and Gotham. It went against most of their religions to put anything above their god, but they were Gothamites.)

In any case, Gotham had let the boys through, and they weren't going to argue.

In fact, Tim was not the only one who could have gotten through. The criteria to get through the bubble were, in this case, that you had to be one of Her favorite children and you had to mean Jason no harm. So Steph could also have gotten through, though she had not yet put on a cape and wouldn't have tried. Dick could also have, or Bruce, or Alfred, or Barbara, but none of them were there and Gotham thought it would probably go smoothest with Tim being the one to find Jason.

(Some of the Rogues probably also could have. Not the Joker or Bane, but if the Riddler or Harley or Ivy were having one of their less murderous days, they could have done it. They probably would even have returned him to Bruce.)

But right now, Tim is leading Jason toward home (Jason's home, and soon Tim's too) and the Gothamites watch them go. Talia rages outside the city and Bruce and Alfred sit at the manor, unknowing that everything is about to change. Dick and Barbara still go about their usual lives, a light haze of grief about them that will soon explode into so many more infinitely complicated emotions.

Here we leave them, but Gotham doesn't, and She never will. She is happy to have them together, though, and will work on getting the rest of them gathered. But she's prevented one from being stolen, and that's a day well spent.

[violent138]

Between Talia and Bruce and the tall genes from Ra's and Thomas and the size Heretic reached, Damian Wayne will shoot up like a weed during high school and his late teens and absolutely none of his siblings are ready for that.

[minamill]

After hitting it off with a stranger, Talia brought him home. She was just starting to have some fun, but once he was satisfied, he just rolled over and went to sleep. Shocked and appalled, Talia kicked him out and finished herself off

previous / next / beginning

[2004hitalbumsevenswans]

I really enjoyed Batman: Caped Crusader. I was worried (like everyone else) that Bruce Timm would push his Bruce/Barbara obsession, but they barely interact when Bruce is out of costume, and he’s all business as Batman. Barbara is (presumably) about the same age as Bruce in this adaptation, she’s a young public defender, who still lives at home with her dad. Commissioner Gordon is mentioned to have 30 years on the Gotham police force at one point. And the series is loosely based on Batman: Year One by Frank Miller, and has Matt Reeves as a producer. It’s definitely an interpretation of the early years of Batman.

The setting is vaguely and aesthetically set in the 1940s, mirroring the original Batman and riffing on DC comic stories and character interpretations from that time. Clayface’s story and appearance is based on the original interpretation of the character, which I really enjoyed - especially as someone’s who’s read the first couple years of the original Detective Comics/Batman stories. (There’s also a lot of great references to the Adam West show, and a couple of its themes are reimagined for this more noir story.)

I could see the series setting up something between Bruce and Barbara potentially, but their interactions are really blink-and-you’ll-miss-it. There’s a moment where Bruce’s is climbing back onto the Iceberg Lounge yacht and he uses a pick up line on her, which she scoffs at, then he proceeds to use the line on two other young women. There’s another moment that you could say is pre-flirting, or is at least setting up a foundation to further a relationship between the two. Where Barbara makes a comment about Batman letting himself into her office unannounced whenever he feels like it, and she tells him she needs a way to contact him, and he gives her the Batphone number. At this point I think you could make more of an argument for a Harleen/Barbara pairing than her and Bruce.

I think the characters would both individually need a lot more development to be in a romantic relationship. I’ll say this even though I know it will be an unpopular opinion: in this interpretation I wouldn’t mind putting Bruce and Barbara together. I know that’s practically sacrilege coming from someone who’s favourite character is Oracle but hear me out.

My main issues with Bruce and Barbara together (especially when it comes to Timm’s work) is the age difference. It’s often debated but Barbara in most iterations (including current comic canon) is around the same age as Dick, usually a couple of years older, 2-3 at most. Bruce is depicted as having at least 15 years on her, if not more. And most stories that have Bruce and Barbara together also fixate on her being batgirl. Then there’s the tendency to make a Nightwing-Batgirl-Batman love triangle which I don’t want to get into but I hate completely.

None of that is happening here. Barbara has her own storylines that are just as prominent as Bruce and Harvey’s. She’s an adult with agency and flaws and is just as fleshed out as any of the other characters are. I wouldn’t be surprised if the show takes a season or two to develop a romantic relationship between the two of them. Bruce is completely focused on being Batman and sees Bruce Wayne as a persona. He’s callous with peoples feelings (Harvey, notably) and is shown to struggle with smaller acts of empathy, opening himself up to people, and honestly, social skills. The last of which doesnt doesn’t affect him too negatively because he’s a rich and well known man in Gotham.

Compared to the Bruce Wayne of BTAS it was a smart choice to show a Bruce/Batman who struggles with people and emotions. It reminded me a lot of Reeves’ the Batman. In wider Batman media you usually see two types of depictions: a compassionate Batman (which is where I would place BTAS) or a more emotionless, be-stoic-and-punch-the-bad-guys-and-look-badass version that is usually just a male power fantasy.

This version of Batman sets up the foundation for a storyline that is relatively unexplored, and I’m sure they’re going to explore it more in the next season (which has already been greenlit).

I was surprised at the lack of adult themes in the show, it was marketed for an adult audience but could easily fit into a PG13 rating, but that was probably on purpose. I was impressed they managed to have so many strong, fleshed out storylines in only 10, 30 minute episodes. But I wouldn’t expect anything less of Bruce Timm, or some of the other names I recognized attached to the project in various ways (Greg Rucka, JJ Abrams, Matt Reeves, and Ed Brubaker).

While there are a lot of critiques of Timm I agree with, I generally enjoy his work and the care he puts into it. I love Greg Rucka and was really excited to see that he wrote the episode that was more Renee Montoya centric. And while I have my issues with Ed Brubaker, I do enjoy his work.

While the series is visually and technologically based around the 1940s, the politics are more modern. Harleen asks Renee out on a date and she talks about it with Barbara openly. I saw one review call the show “race blind” which I would not agree with. Most of the racism is implied through euphemism (the scene with Lucius Fox and Gentleman ghost), but it’s still felt as a point of friction for multiple characters, it affects how they interact with the world around them. There’s also a line spoken by either detective Flass or Bullock that implies no one in the GCPD wants to follow Renee because she’s gay. It’s cut off before the last word, but again, the meaning is implied.

An issue I always had with the Timmverse is its depictions of female characters. They always feel less real than their male counterparts, less important and less visually stylized. All the important (read: desirable) women have the same body shape. They’re thin and extremely, unnaturally curvy. I’m aware that these characters are supposed to evoke that 50s comic pinup imagery but I always thought it was a bit much. Male characters - even before the animation downgrade in BTAS season 4 - were always way more unique from each other than the female characters. That wasn’t something I felt with Caped Crusader. The three most prominent female characters (Barbara, Renee and Harleen) were all different from each other, with different heights, body shapes, hair and clothing styles. They also all had 3 distinct personalities that were built up through the series. I would argue that the show was as much about the “supporting cast” (characters like Harvey, Commissioner Gordon, Renee and Barbara) as it was about Batman.

Overall I was really impressed by the show. I was disappointed with how short it was. I hope that Renee’s personal life gets a focus with the next season, and I hope they bring back Greg Rucka to write it. I love how he wrote her in Gotham Central. I was a little annoyed that they introduced the Joker at the end of the series (as a peak into the next season). I think he’s too over saturated as a character, and sometimes his introduction into a Batman story takes over everything else, and he’s depicted as Batman’s Moriarty. I do have hope that this won’t happen in Caped Crusader, because it seems that villains will be reoccurring, but there’ll be a large cast, just like in BTAS. That aspect did remind me of the way characters were introduced in those early Batman comics, it really has the same vibe. I also really really do not want Harley to be involved with the Joker in any way. Please keep her as a separate character, this new interpretation of her is great as is, he doesn’t need to be involved.

I would also be interested to see if the show develops Barbara’s character into Oracle. I could see that happening with the introduction of the Joker at the end of season one. Maybe they’re going to rework the Killing Joke? I couldn’t see them having her as batgirl, but I would be interested to see how they worked Oracle into a world with 1940s technology. I’m thinking back to her as Oracle in the Doom that Came to Gotham, and how clever that was. I’m sure they could do something just as interesting with her here. Something more supernatural feels like a long shot, because Timm usually sticks to the more “realistic”, street-level versions of Batman, but they did introduce Gentleman Ghost. So it’s a possibility.

One thing I did think could have been better was some of the voice work. Not the voice acting itself, but the design. It felt too polished alongside the score and the animation. I wish the voice acting had been more atmospheric, had more depth. It felt too clean. Hamish Linklater was great as Bruce/Batman. Following Kevin Conroy is no small feat, and Linklater’s performance felt reminiscent of Conroy without sounding like an impression. It was quiet and unassuming, yet strong.

I’m not usually someone who watches things more than once, but I’m definitely going to be rewatching Caped Crusader soon.

[theotheronedotorg]

I've read a lot about Twin!Reader al Ghul and how both them and Damian are very close-knit. They love each other to no end, they have a type of mind link because they're so close, and they can get clingy to each other. I'd like to offer a new perspective on this.

Even though the two were raised alongside one another, they were raised to compete, not to be so connected that they'd rather share pain than watch the other go through it. Even though the two were born from the same woman and raised by the same al Ghul, they were trained separately and only together when they needed to fight against one another. This, unfortunately, formed a competition streak between the two.

Their fights would be strictly training at first. They were never allowed to see each other outside of monthly training, a once-a-monthly training session where the two go against each other and study the other to better their training to surpass the other. After each session, they'd trade senseis. Damian at first had Ra's when he first started training, and Reader had Talia. Once the two were old enough to physically fight, I think about 4 or 5, they go against each other for the first time.

The two look identical, but Reader is a female and Damian is a male. They have black hair, like Bruce's, but Reader's is longer, about the same as Talia's, and has some natural streaks in her hair that resemble Talia's lighter hair color. Their eyes are the same shade of green, but Reader's tends to glow a type of honey-yellow when she's pissed because of her special connection to the Demon (in my au, the League of Assassins have a supernatural Demon that hangs around and talks to the one in charge, and the Demon grew attached to Reader ever since she was born. It shows clear favoritism).

Their skin tones are the same, but Reader has dark freckles, almost black, that are dotted around her face, looking a lot like a ritual pentagram. She is a lot calmer than Damian but can be a lot more violent because of her choice to stay with Talia when the League of Assassins base (location?) was attacked.

When Damian follows his mother's orders, Reader goes against them with the words with she wants to stick with her mother so she wouldn't get hurt. The two don't see each other again until they are a few years older, roughly around 16-18. From then on, you can come up with what happens. The two can duke it out, or they can have words. Whichever you choose will ultimately decide how their future relationship will be.

[ellestrade]

I've scrolled through your posts (maybe creepy but who cares im lovin em). Loved your posts about the Al Ghuls!

And I'm wondering what you think about the Dick/Talia beef? I personally find it hilarious that Dick has beef with the one who gave birth to Damian, one of the people he loves and cherishes very much

Hi anon, thank you for the compliment!

Anyhow, regarding your question, I don't think that Dick's hostility towards Talia doesn't revolve around Damian— not at first, at least. Of course, the hate could've been amplified when Damian came to light, though until then it was pretty tame in comparison. Or not, I don't know which would be funnier.

Also, I'm going to direct you to @rasalghul777 , again, because I believe that they're more adverse in this than I am when it comes to the complex relationship between Talia and pretty much all other characters, stressing on Brutalia. However, since this is in regards to my opinion, I'll try to put things into perspective. So take this with a grain of salt.

Anyhow, Dick has shown to dislike Talia early on. This is because, considering that she's an antagonist (her father is among Barman's Rogues' Gallery, if I'm not mistaken, as he was one of the main villains) Dick sees that she's a bad influence to Bruce— since this man was madly in love with Talia at the time to the point it's unhealthy for him (one of the main reason why Talia faked her miscarriage and gave Damian away in the original run of his appearance), and vice versa.

(BruTalia my beloved, BruTalia my Roman empire)

So much, in fact, that Bruce did not hesitate when it comes to choosing between her and his own ward, that being Dick at the time.

While I could be wrong, this is the context that I've gathered from this panel 🤷🤷 though I honestly doubt so.

It could also be read as the "Children not wanting to trust their parents' spouse" type of thing, which is hilarious on its' own accord.

It also doesn't help that they have fundamental disagreement from the get-go— their clashed beliefs makes it difficult for them to meet eye-to-eye.

Dick doesn't owe Talia anything, similar to how Talia doesn't owe Dick anything; he doesn't have to try to understand her, nor does she have to prove anything to him. He's entitled to hate her just as she's entitled to hate him. That hate was very much mutual between them.

(Which, when you think about it, is the same exact argument people brought up when justifying Tim's hostility towards Damian. But I don't want to go too off tangent, so that's a conversation for another day.)

However, when Damian came along, you could imagine that Dick's hatred towards Talia would be amplified ten-fold— while it's possible that he doesn't necessarily see Talia as a stereotypical bad mother (mostly for Damian's sake, and the boy insisted that she wasn't) it was difficult for him to see her as an actual decent one too.

I feel like Dick would be more inclined to blame Talia more on Damian's upbringing; even though it was (heavily, sorta) implied that Talia herself wasn't allowed to see Damian, let alone raise him back in the League.

It's worth mentioning that Dick isn't an all-knowing being. He couldn't've known, and having an actual conversation with Damian regarding his upbringing is a delicate process in itself, but he does recognize Talia as a parental figure in Damian's life and would, therefore, instinctively blame her for the majority of Damian's issues.

Though Dick eventually learns to distribute the hate equally on both parents 🤷🤷🤷 I found that to be more comical compared to a one-sided hate.

Dick: I hate both of you, I really do. You both belong together, because then the world would have to worry about two less horrible people.

Dick: But thank you for the child. I love him. He's mine now.

Bruce and Talia: ?????????

However, when push comes to shove, Dick would still (albeit begrudgingly) team up with Talia. Funnily enough, I always see it that Dick would rather side with Talia more than he would Bruce— because fuck if she doesn't have an actual reason to have a complicated relationship with Damian. Bruce has raised, like, 5 kids and couldn't figure out his teenage son? A 14 year old boy with crippling anxiety??? Get outta here.

All in all, I think both Dick and Talia would have that one relationship like two bitter grandma's who hated each other, but would still attend to the same tea party within punching distance if their beloved grandchild asked.

At least Talia would only suffer from glares. Dick would actually tackle Bruce.

[radiance1]

"There is two of you."

Logos leaned back in his seat, resting his head against his fist as he stared at a screen displaying Pathos, currently being buried beneath a mass of different ghostly animals. "That there is."

Distain crossed Damian's face. "Who in their right mind would ever clone the likes of you, brother?" He waved a hand at the screen, a small flash of envy that crossed his heart over seeing the clone buried beneath a mass of fluff, before blinking, and jerking his head and Daniel's direction. "Full offense."

"None taken." Logos's voice was cold and emotionless, containing a more mechanical edge due to the voice changer installed in his gas mask. "Pathos is not my clone, he is half of me." Logos raised his other hand before Damian could speak. "We were torn apart, in case you were wondering."

Damian hummed, moving his eyes away from the screen and around the lab. Giving a begrudging nod at the extreme cleanliness, and eyeing a few of the tech left around, before turning back to his twin with a raised eyebrow. "I can't imagine the reason you called me here was for a mere chat."

Logos nodded. "Pathos wishes to become a hero, yet I have a different goal." Logos stood up from his chair, walking over to Danny until he was relatively close and held out a hand. "Such that I am unable to watch over him at every turn, so, dear brother. Will you look over him in my stead?"

Damian stared at the outstretched hand, before back at Daniel's gas mask covered face. His face was calm as he stared back at his twin, before clicking his tongue. "Tt. As pathetic as always. Such incompetence that you need others to clean up whatever mess your other half will surely bring." Damian crossed his arms, glaring at his twin.

"I will not be that person, Daniel."

Logos hummed. "The probability of you saying no was quite high, so I am not surprised." He walked past Damian, beckoning his twin with a hand to follow as he stopped at a nearby table, quickly gathering a few items he sought after. "These are the objects that will 'sweeten the deal' as some would say."

Said objects looked to be a few buttons, a ball, a laser pointer, and an arm bracer.

"And you expect me to accept to watch over your other half, for mere trinkets?" Damian wrinkled his nose, as he stared at Daniel as if he were an idiot, which he very surely believes he is. "I expected you to be smarter than that, but I am not surprised by your usual incompetence."

Logos shook his head. "These are not mere trinkets, brother, and I know you recognize that as well. These," Danny picked up the few small buttons, tossing them at Damian, who easily caught them. "Will are capable of expanding into ectoplasmic nets, that will also deliver a shock to those who try to get out of them, nothing lethal, so worry not about your father having an issue with them."

Damian hummed, holding one of the buttons up to his eye. Logos waved to a nearby target that he set up for this exact circumstance. "Go ahead, try it."

Damian glanced at his twin, before throwing the button at the target. It expanded into a large net that shouldn't have been able to be held in such a small object, wrapping around the target.

"Unfortunately, you will be unable to test the shock function at this moment, so you will have to test it later on a live subject."

"Tt."

Logos tilted his head. "You seem displeased."

"That you are capable? Yes. I am."

Logos hummed, before taking up the ball. "That is a mechanical eye, you be able to see through it, which would certainly make it easier for you who stalks the night, yes?" Damian clicked his tongue, and Logos took that as enough to continue. "You will be able to look through it with these," He picked up the arm bracer in his other hand and handed both items to Damian. "The bracer connects to the eye, which will show you a live recording of what is happening on the other side." Logos turned to pick up the laser pointer, before blinking. "Ah, just will it to move, and it will. So long as you have the bracer on."

Damian stared at the bracer for a moment, before swiftly putting it on, and the mechanical eye sprang to life as soon as he finished. A screen appeared over his arm, giving him a direct look through the eye's position. He tested the movement and found it true.

"Being torn apart may have been the best thing that has happened to you, brother."

"Perhaps." Logos threw the laser pointer at Damian, which he caught. "That is a small, portable laser, while also acting as a regular laser pointer. Just twist the knob at the bottom and you'll be able to adjust it." Logos' eyes narrowed. "Do not test it in here, or anywhere near here, for that matter."

Damian pocketed it silently, before recrossing his arms. He grunted.

"Pathos will be happy to receive your cooperation, though he is quite emotional, I expect you to work around that." Logos held out a hand, and Damian stared at it for a good few moments, before begrudgingly putting his hand in his twin's for a handshake.

Damian had a foreboding feeling that he would regret ever accepting this deal, and not even a minute after meeting him he already did.

[Based off of this post, and thank you @ashfly for the name suggestions! :3]

[soranatus]

Bruce/Talia + The Heart

Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight // Detective Comics #1071 variant cover by Ivan Reis // Justice League: Mortal // Detective Comics #1061 cover by Ivan Reis // Detective Comics #750 // Batman: Masterpieces by Dermot Power // Batman & Spider-Man: New Age Dawning

[redhoodinternaldialectical]

Finding character motivations for everything Talia Al Ghul does and says in Lost Days

People say she was manipulating Jason to be more violent but like... was she?? Why would she be doing that??? She spends years trying to heal him for Bruce and then tries to make him more violent towards Bruce because... ????????

I've read Lost Days a fair few times and it never felt like she was being cruel or manipulative and this has confused the fuck out of me for a long time. Since I'm going to be writing her into my Jason centric fic pretty soon, I figured it would be good to go back to Lost Days and really focus in on her and her character motivations.

This is a post because I do my best thinking through the act of writing essays, and figured someone out there might also be interested.

tl;dr In the text as written Talia does her level best to guide Jason to become a Hero again out of genuine compassion. It is her explicit goal to make Jason less vengeful, less violent, and more like the hero he was before he died. She is not predatory towards him, and the only times she works in ways that could be damaging to him are when she feels her own safety is threatened by him. Talia is depicted as a good but flawed person shaped by the trauma Ra's and the League has put her through.

So yeah, wildly over detailed analysis of everything Talia does and says during Lost Days under the cut:

Scene one: Ra's and Talia yelling dramatically on a lawn right after Talia uses a Lazarus Pit on Jason.

Her stated justification for doing so is "I did--what--needed to be done" (em dashes for choking). Considering she risked a LOT to do this, I figure she's probably telling the truth. She believed this was necessary.

Then we flash back to her first learning about Jason's death. She posits that his death will essentially break Bruce.

In the panels directly after this she's shown looking at a picture of Jason and Bruce, face in hands, clearly upset. Probably primarily for Bruce, but like idk she's an empathic human I feel like it's safe to say she's upset for the kid who died too, especially since the picture centers Jason prominently, with focus/close-up panels on both Bruce and Jason, with Jason's scanning first.

Then we have the sequence of her learning that Jason is still alive, through her agents who have been instructed to keep a very close eye on Bruce.

Her first big decision is to bring him to her Father. She doesn't make any attempt to hide him, so it's either a good idea to her or a necessary one. Ra's obviously wants to figure out how he managed to cheat death, and it seems likely to me, given that she's loyal to him, that she'd also want to do so. She doesn't seem to want him dead, even if she's at odds with him pretty much the whole time to one degree or another.

Then we get her investigating Jason's ressurection and the doctor she's got telling her about his brain damage and the Doc claims he's not getting better

We're just gonna breeze on passed that autistic affect weirdness...

She disagrees.

This is the third time now that Talia has had faith in the humanity and emotional capacity of people the rest of the League write off as being capable of nothing but violence. Considering she's been right the other times it stands to reason that she's right about this too. It also says a lot about her character that this is something she's repeatedly done.

She attempts to prove he's getting better by slapping Jason across the face, declaring, "He never fights back when it's me! Explain that! Never when it's me!"

This strongly suggests that she must treat him differently than the rest of the league, specifically that she treats him with more kindness and more attention. He recognizes her as someone safe, who he doesn't need to fight.

This is further backed up by the next page

Ra's then decides that all this has been a complete waste of time and demands that Jason be put out to pasture so he can't distract Talia from her work for the League.

During this argument Ra's posits that she thinks handing over a healed Jason would make Bruce love her, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I think Ra's is misreading her, in exactly the same way all of the League has been misreading everyone all issue: he's failing to understand that people are capable of actual love and compassion. He's interpreting her acts of kindness and love as something manipulative and selfish. Maybe that's something she believes or hopes for on some level, but it's obviously not her "real" motive here like Ra's thinks.

This is what makes her decide that it's necessary to make one last attempt to heal him, and get him out somewhere safer than with the League. It's a desperate last ditch attempt, but she's a competent motherfucker.

The rest of the issue is narrated as a letter Talia sends off with him in the bag of supplies she gives him. In it she says that she had other reasons for attempting to save him.

So, at the end of issue #1 we have three clear motives for why she healed Jason:

To heal Jason is to heal Bruce.

She has a basic sense of decency and wants to help a murdered kid recover. Jason healing is its own reward.

She wants to find out how Jason "survived" so that her Father might be able to replicate that for himself.

Healing Jason might bring her emotionally closer to Bruce.

ALL of these are based in love, and thus could qualify for what she meant in those last few lines of her letter. However, I think I want to emphasis that she almost certainly has to be including love for Jason himself, not just for what Jason represents to Bruce, though Bruce is still a huge focus for her.

And she didn't tell Bruce because Ra's might kill Jason. He doesn't want Batman to know he's alive, ever, and may very well kill Jason to keep that secret.

ON TO ISSUE #2

This is where it gets a lot harder to figure out why she's doing things.

Talia's first act is to refuse to tell Ra's where Jason is. Her second revealed act is that while tossing Jason into the ocean to help him escape she says this:

"Do not seek him out. You remain unavenged."

Third thing she does is check up on her loyal agents who tell her "We know where he's going You're not going to like it." This is immediately followed by the reveal that Jason is going to Gotham.

So uhhhh... Why doesn't Talia want him to go to Bruce now? Also, why does Talia think that being unavenged would mean Jason going to Bruce was a bad idea? Like how is the unavenged bit not a complete nonsequitor?

Cause the thing is, we the audience know what Jason is like in the future, Lost Days was written after UtRH, but Talia doesn't know Jason's personality, she's only met him while he was incapable of communication, so what reason does she have to assume this would impact him like this?

Hypothesis one: She knew about Felipe, thinks he killed him, and thus counts him as a killer of abusers, someone who would want revenge.

Seems pretty unlikely. There's absolutely nothing in the text to support this, it's completely made up conjecture. Also, she doesn't seem to think Jason is the type of person to do revenge all that harshly in later panels.

Hypothesis two: She's counting on the temporary adrenaline-rage-pain boost from the Pit to convince him to be mad about the whole unavenged thing.

Why tho? Like, for realsies, there's no reason for her to try to do this? If this is a plan to keep him away from Bruce, it's a dumb one, like why would that be her choice of strategy?? Also the letter contradicts this.

Hypothesis three: She believes it was wrong of Bruce not to avenge him, or at least thinks that most people would be incredibly angry to find they weren't avenged

Baring her just being fucking precognitive and knowing the future for no good reason, this seems like the most likely cause. Growing up in the League hasn't exactly given her a view of how healthy people handle their anger, and violent retaliation is a nigh daily obstacle for her to navigate. It means she told him that because she thought it was important and she probably always intended to tell him whenever he healed enough to understand it.

Hypothesis four: She assumed him finding out was inevitable, and wanted to do that in a controlled manner... uhhh... and the best controlled manner avaliable was... while flinging him off a cliff??? Instead of in the letter?????

Not buying this one.

We see Jason try to kill Bruce and then get him explaining himself to Talia.

That's... that's not how sociopathic works I'm pretty sure... whateves...

Talia seems to have believed there would have been a fight about the Joker, but not that Jason would have actually tried to kill him. Or at least not that Jason would have tried to really, truly kill him in such a cold, calculated way once all forms of Laz juice were out of his system.

So again, why the fuck was she preventing him and Bruce from meeting?! Would the Dark Knight not have survived a fist fight with an angry sixteen year old??

I don't get it. That's uhhhh- that doesn't make any sense to me. I guess she was just wary of how bad the confrontation might get, but not fully expecting this kind of rage? Maybe she was acting much more confident of her decisions in front of her father and was really worried about this outcome? I dunno, and that's all the evidence we've got!

And now we have a new problem! Why does Talia agree to help him?

She believes she's released a curse into this world. She believes that she has kickstarted a nasty cycle of violence spiral. She doesn't want to see Bruce hurt or killed by his kid.

So the only conclusion left is that she thinks she can better mitigate the damage by helping and misdirecting than she can by actually confronting Jason. Considering who she interacts with, that seems perfectly reasonable.

ON TO ISSUE #3

We get some proper answers here hopefully

Our previous idea about why she was helping him was correct, this is an attempt to keep him less violent, steer him towards other things, and let his desire for revenge fizzle or find a different target.

She's not giving him over to Bruce because Bruce would never forgive her for having kept Jason from him... And also Jason will fucking kill Bruce.

Make special note here of the idea that sex is why she isn't beating the crap out of this guy. Put a pin in that. It'll be important later.

Back down at the murder ranch, Jason finishes killing his teacher and then explains himself

I believe she's genuinely happy about this, because it is actually a step in the direction she wants him to take. He went from being completely obsessed with just killing the father who didn't avenge him, to saving a bunch of kids and delaying his own revenge goals to do it. The tin man IS growing a heart. Her plan is, miraculously, kinda working!

ON TO ISSUE #4

Further proof that her plan is working: Jason leaves Rip, the mercenary driver, alive. He's developing standards for who he is and isn't willing to kill, and those standards are evolving because he is being pushed outside his conflict with Bruce.

His treatment of the bomber's connection with the mob is further proof of this.

That little smile and her gently nudging him towards the idea that he's picking "old habits" back up is very telling. She's guiding him back to the path of actually being a Hero. I think this is meant to imply that Talia is deliberately throwing scumbags towards him to not only distract him, but also to remind him of the heroism he did before he died and give him new purpose beyond mere violence towards Bruce.

And again, her plan is working! He's doing hero stuff!

Aaaaand now we have another curveball. Why show him Tim?

Again, him finding out about this was probably inevitable. He seems more chill, the dark circles under his eyes are gone, I think she's hoping that while in the middle of a new investigation Jason will be in as good a place as she can find to tell him about this.

It's better than mid cliff dive, if nothing else.

Now, to head this off at the pass, because I've seen people assert this in other posts before: this is definitively, absolutely, 100% guaranteed, NOT WHEN TITANS TOWER HAPPENS. He hasn't even come up with using the red hood as a persona when she shows him this picture, so even if he let the extremely time sensitive bombing plot go for a day or two worth of private jetting to beat up the new guy, there's no way in HELL Tim would be able to recognize the Red Hood as Jason. Heck, Tim wouldn't even be with that set of Titans yet, the fucking HUSH plotline hasn't even happened yet!! Okay moving on...

ON TO ISSUE #5

Talia isn't in this one

Jason acts as a Hero. Tim man definitely has a heart.

I really like this plotline tbh, it's just great.

He kills all but one of the Russian mobsters that come to kill him and then he runs out of ammo on the last, and that guy offers up the Joker's location in exchange for his life.

This is when the Tin Man relapses.

ON TO ISSUE #6

CONTENT WARNING FOR DISCUSSION OF CONSENT ISSUES

He hunts the Joker down and fails to kill him. I want to emphasis here, that failing to kill the Joker is a failure to adhere to the morals that Jason has established for himself, and a failure to keep being an anti-hero the way Talia was encouraging him to be.

This is not him being a good guy. This is him getting worse again. This is him failing to care about the world and things other than his own revenge.

Once again he explains himself to Talia, and reveals that he's known for a while now that she's been stalling him.

And then they fuck, and Jason wakes up alone.

So what just happened and why?

First of all I think the fact he KNEW he was being stalled combined with his heroism prior to the Joker being brought up strongly implies that Talia's plan would have kept working and that Jason would have kept letting it work, drawing him more and more into just being an anti-hero. He has a heart, he has morals, but his rage for Bruce and the Joker eclipses those morals pretty completely. Talia's plan was always to guide him away from revenge and it might have worked if he hadn't run out of ammo at the wrong time.

Secondly, Talia has just been given a bunch of reasons to feel threatened. Her plot was revealed, and Jason no longer has reason to believe that she isn't an obstacle to his goals.

Considering the sheer amount of violence that Talia regularly narrowly escapes only through manipulation and leveraging men's emotions, it seems pretty reasonable to me that she'd assume she needed to do both those things in order to protect herself.

She tells Jason about Ra's death, claiming that she's angry with Bruce for that. I don't know if this is the truth, but it would serve this purpose either way. She's giving him reasons to believe she's still on his side. Then she gets emotional leverage on him by sleeping with him. Take that pin out of the fact that she didn't beat that other guy for talking out of turn to her because she was fucking him. Then she escapes while he's asleep and only contacts him again from afar.

She does both of these things because she is afraid that a freshly refocused on vengeance Jason will hurt or kill her if she doesn't. After all, she herself is a killer. Jason might just decide it's her turn to join his other teachers.

The scene of them sleeping together isn't framed as traumatic for Jason; he seems to be perfectly willing.

There two very important questions that need answered before we cast judgments though: Is Jason still a minor when this happens? How old is Talia in comparison to Jason?

The only indication of timeline that we have is that it takes place JUST prior to Hush, as the story ends with Jason meeting Tomas Elliot. According to the Batman Chronology Project, Tim should be 16 during the events of Hush. We know Jason is about two years older than Tim, making him 18 during this scene.

According to Dennis O'Neil "I’m pretty sure that Talia is still a young woman – young by our standards, not just her father’s." According to some random fucker on an ancient comicvine forum going by the handle "brock4618", O'Neil said in a different interview that she was 18 when Bruce kissed her and is about Dick's age, not Bruce's age. I can't find O'Neil saying that, but it does line up with the quote we know is real.

So this was a case of an extremely traumatized 18 year old boy agreeing to sleep with a woman in her twenties after he accidentally made her feel that she needed to use sex and emotional manipulation to protect herself from his possible violent retaliation.

This is still a deeply unpleasant situation, but it's so much better than the initial impression that I got!

CONCLUSIONS TIME

Talia healed Jason because

She's a kind and loving person, and was especially kind and loving when she was younger. She wants to help Bruce, she wants to help Jason, and she wants to help her father. She did it for love.

Talia kept Jason's existence a secret from Bruce because

Her father demanded she keep it a secret, then she was afraid Bruce would hate her for it, and by the time she ought to be warning Bruce about Jason, well he was a scary motherfucker and she was in too deep.

Is Talia portrayed as a sexually predatory monster?

No. A woman using sex to escape violence is not predatory; I will fucking fight you. That whole scenario was bad, but acting like she's evil for this doesn't pan out unless you disagree with some of the facts of the case. It also really doesn't feel like Winick intended for the audience to assume this was predatory. Jason never seems uncomfortable with the fact it happened, and he even gives Jason a bit of beard scruff to help convey that he's older now. (it uh... it didn't work. Because I thought Talia was like 52 at minimum. Also just the timeline. But that was the intent I feel)

Is Talia attempting to make Jason more vengeful?

No. Exact opposite actually, every lie and manipulation is in service of preventing him from going on his vengeance quest, guiding him to be a better person, and protecting herself and others.

As a side note: I haven't touched the potential misogyny or racism angles, because that's simply beyond the scope of this analysis. I don't have the time, energy, or resources to dig into this myself, you'll have to find a different post for that angle, sorry.

So... yeah. That's my findings, I hope at least one other person finds this useful!

[crabrat]

damian talia and dick they’re ough they make me feel so many things

no no because talia raised damian that’s his mom-probably one of the only people who game him some semblance of kindness in the league-a roll model-an authority figure he cannot question and suddenly she turned him away and sends him to meet his father, someone whose practically a stranger to him

and so he goes and he adapts but everything he’s been taught is challenged all the things he’d been punished for not doing he’s punished for doing

but to keep his family something’s he’s been easier to value so highly he learns and adapts and so he has his father he gets used to this new form of love and it’s ripped from him, his father is dead and everything around him is in shambles and he’s with dick and dick well dick just drills in the idea that the woman who’d loved and poured her tangible pride into him and taught him everything he’s ever known is just Wrong dick tries to save him from his own childhood

and then where does he go from there, it is all wrong and dear god if that’s wrong then what is he what is he without this everything he’s ever known is mute

And then we have Dick whose just trying to live to survive to continue when his father has died and he has to pick up the ashes he’s got to take care of a. new kid and a whole fucking city and he is terrified he’s going to repeat the past

god he’s got so many regrets and so many things he has to do the and world keeps fucking spinning while his has been obliterated

and his brother is chasing after ghosts and his team is picking up the peices and his sister moves and his brother moves and they’re spread out thin grief cannot be escaped yet they all try to avoid it and he’s left to drown in it

but he has to persevere batman cannot die and neither can robin the cycle must continue but all he can do is his best to make it run smoother so he takes in the kid whose so harsh and rough around the edges but still very clearly a child and he tries to make sure damian knows he’s loved that he’s not leaving he tries to provide stability but he is in his mind but a pale imitation of bruce never able he’s truly measure up to the man and really hes not even sure he wants to

And talia, talia’s stuck between a rock and a hard place, she’s never aspired for motherhood and she’d never really gotten a choice but she has a child and she loves him yet she never seems to be able to do him right she knows the league isn’t the best place for a kid but it’s all she’s ever known and likely all he’ll know so she teaches him how to survive and she makes him know how proud she is and how proud he should be

and then she has an opening she can send him to his father to be trained and she knows if she does she’ll never get him back but as long and he’s safe and happy she’ll do it she has to and she knows she will never be forgiven but she will do what she musts for her family she loves Damian so so much but Love alone won't save you make you a better person or excuse the harm you cause in its name It's not enough just to feel love-what truly matters is how you choose to act on it