#Spiral Killer William

[williameschenk]

How would the Jigsaw trap survivors out there have felt about their trap experience if there had been music playing throughout?

[williameschenk]

Sorry to intrude but I felt compelled to:

Found an old picture from highschool

[aloneonceagainaspredicted]

'you don't wanna be my partner' 'you don't know that... your dad's the reason for all of this, he's why i wanted to do this in the first place' 'and i'm not him'

i can only imagine how william's heartbeat quickened because he knows that, zeke. he knows and he's counting on it.

[fate-motif]

y’all guys think there are serial killer simps for john kramer in the saw universe

[animangalover-writes]

For once I'd like to go into the jigsquad tag and not see people hating on Logan.

He needs to be there to give us that straight white boy loser energy!!!

He needs to be the tired older brother that's just trying to deal with his younger siblings(apprentices) while helping dad with work(making traps)!!!

[williamschenk-banks]

Look: I’m a Hoffman is alive truth er myself, but we all know that as soon as Lawrence left Hoffman’s ass in that bathroom, he went home and railed his husband of 10 years. Adam doesn’t know what brought Larry’s neediness, but he has a strong feeling it has to do with that damn bathroom.

[soullessjack]

what saw movie do you dislike and why?

Spiral (2021).

There’s movies that are so bad they’re good, and then there’s movies that are so bad you feel like you’ve lost years of your life during its runtime. Spiral is the latter.

// obligatory spoiler warning, but genuinely it’s not worth watching //

Firstly, there’s a jarring shift in aesthetic and tone between this and the first 6 Saw movies. It’s hard to explain with words alone, but the other movies all have this claustrophobic atmosphere to them. Between the traps and other environments, everything is typically dark and dim and cluttered and confusing (John’s warehouse lair, the various traps, Adam’s shithole apartment, Tapp’s office, etc). More brightly lit and clean environments like Gordon’s home and hospital are distinctly cold and empty, and the various shots of the outside world are largely kept in such small tight frame that you still feel confined.

As such, the characters themselves feel suffocated by their own environments too, even if it’s just within their everyday lives. Tapp is suffocated by his obsession, Adam is suffocated by his seedy job, and even though Gordon’s environments are fairly large and bright and spacious, they lack any warmth or welcome; both home and hospital are sterile. This constant sense of confinement is what I think lends immensely to Saw’s unique flavor of horror.

Spiral doesn’t have any of that. It focuses on a big-city police department, full of wide open spaces and warm colors. There are plenty of environments that could’ve been used for the claustrophobic feeling, like the police department or the opening kill train station—but then, the department is large enough to fit 20+ officers at a time, and the train station is fucking huge. There’s also a lot of traveling around with the main character, Zeke, as he investigates the latest Sawpycat, so you never get the same suffocation or confinement feelings as before. But now let me get to Zeke.

He’s a cop in the department that’s currently being targeted by Sawpycat, and his backstory is that a few years ago he saw another “brother” shoot a witness who wanted to testify against another cop, and when he tried to confront the corruption, the department turned against him (we’ll get to the police corruption part later, but holy shit is that possibly the worst part of the whole movie). It’s not very important, but Zeke is also played by Chris Rock—as in, Marty the Zebra from Madagascar Chris Rock. I’m sure he’s a talented guy, but he does not have the range, and I don’t know if it’s just because of his voice or that he isn’t usually a horror actor, but he just cannot land the role. This being the opening dialogue for his character doesn’t help either:

This is another example of the tonal shift being completely thrown off, and it being said by Marty the Zebra isn’t exactly an improvement. One of Adam’s lines in Saw 2004 is literally “I wouldn’t care if you covered yourself in peanut butter and had a 15-hooker gang bang,” and that alone tells me more about his character and dynamic with Gordon than whatever this is supposed to. That’s cinematic poetry to me. But the dialogue throughout this whole movie is so..empty. So devoid of substance. It definitely registers as words on a paper being read aloud, but not as genuine thoughts or feelings from the characters. Not only are wokeness jokes completely unfunny, they’re also completely out of place for a Saw movie.

Now, I will say that Saw is a franchise that focuses on various social-political issues before; police corruption & brutality, drug addiction, poverty, the justice system, prison conditions, the healthcare system, etc are all elements that tie directly into its’ main story and lend to the uniqueness even more. I mean, for all intents and purposes Jigsaw and his apprentices are technically vigilantes working outside the law. Spiral itself focuses on police brutality and corruption and goes all-in with it through Zeke’s story and the serial targeting of various precinct officers (I kind of liked the tie-in to cops as pigs and Jigsaw’s pig symbolism but that’s about it).

See, as odd as it may sound, the point of Jigsaw’s games and the qualifications of his targets is redemption. It’s intended to be a second chance for people who don’t value life, be it theirs or others. Eric Matthews from Saw 2 is a crooked cop who framed and sentenced Amanda Young and other people for false drug charges. But he’s also a father struggling through a divorce who wants to be there for his son, Daniel, and will do anything to save or help him. You can and should hate him for falsely ruining numerous peoples’ lives, but you can still sympathize with the pain and fear he feels for his son.

There’s nuance to him, as there’s nuance to the other various victims throughout the movies, and that nuance allows you to care for the fact that these people are victims at all, because the driving point that makes you root for the victims’ survival and care about their situation is that they ultimately deserve to live and redeem themselves despite their wrongdoings. With Spiral’s victims, there’s no nuance whatsoever. Every targeted cop is targeted for past corruption that went unpunished, and every one of them deserves what they get, full stop. One of the cops literally shot a teenager to death for flipping him off (and he has what’s probably my favorite kill of the whole movie). What makes it even worse is that the Sawpycat killer is a fucking victim of police brutality. Remember Zeke’s origin story as a witness to another cop murdering a man to protect his crooked buddy? Yeah, the killer is that man’s son, having witnessed his father’s death and vowing revenge on the whole system by destroying it from the inside out, and he wants Zeke to be his boy best friend taking down more evil cops together and yada yada.

Shockingly, he gets away with it in the end instead of dying like you’d expect for an anti-cop vigilante, but even still the entire story just feels so poorly executed and contrived. I don’t feel any of the stress or emotional weight of these peoples’ deaths because they wholeheartedly deserve it. I don’t even sympathize with Zeke as “one of the good cops” because 1) his personality is bland, and 2) there’s a scene where he goes undercover to a drug dealer’s for information and proceeds to not only break this man’s legs till the bone sticks out, but then makes a long winded joke about posting it “for the Gram” and pouring whiskey on it. The end credits song is also a rap song that still feels so unfitting for the tone of the franchise (at least, compared to the other movies’ ending with primarily metal songs. I guess it’s a product of time deal).

So, yeah. Spiral is undoubtedly the worst Saw movie, and honestly I can’t even call it a Saw movie because of how far removed from the franchise it feels.

I will say, tho, that I do not blame Chris Rock and Samuel L Jackson (yes, he’s here too as Zeke’s dad; it’s more believable casting than Chris but still not great) for their movie failing as it did. They’re both incredibly talented actors, and horror movies (and movies in general) with black leads are very lacking in Hollywood, but I truly think this movie was doomed to begin with. and whether that’s poor writing or Hollywood dooming a black-lead narrative as usual I can’t say. They did their best with what they were given, and considering how little that was, they have all my respect.

[pierrotpriest]

just watched cinemasins' take on spiral and i haven't really watched much of cinemasins in years or anyone talk about spiral on youtube because i assume they all say the same thing (not good, very bad, not saw, something mean about chris rock) but i will say that the cinemasins video had captions and whenever the spiral killer in the pig mask spoke on the tv or on the tapes he was referred to as "pigsaw" and i really appreciate that

[mister13eyond]

Hey real shit

Spiral beats ass

[johnnyutah]

average adam faulkner stanheight fan: if adam isn’t in saw xi we riot! @lionsgate @kevingruetert @jameswan #adamlives #justiceforadam #corpseinconsistencies

average john kramer fan: What people don’t realize about John, is he’s such a genius that even when he makes mistakes, he planned on making the mistakes. He is the greatest villain of all time

average jill tuck fan: Appreciation post for the Women of Saw 🩷 [the same ten photos that get posted once a week]

average lawrence gordon fan: last night i watched a 2004 tv movie about serial killers called ‘the riverman’, followed by the cheesy family rom-com ‘a castle for christmas’. today my friends and i are going to binge the entire third season of netflix’s ‘stranger things’. none of us have seen a single episode of the rest of the show and we don’t plan on it. then we might rewatch ‘another country’ together

average amanda young fan: sorry i haven’t been online in 4 weeks i’ve been too busy trying to get the new pig cosmetic in the rift [posted 7 weeks ago]

average mark hoffman fan: [underneath a gifset of costas mandylor in a republican christian propaganda ‘sci-fi’ movie] #hes so fucking hot #i would give anything to put him in a sports bra and make him do jumping jacks in front pf me i would literally do #ANYTHING #i need to make him into a marionett and fist him lol

average daniel rigg fan: Here’s a quick low effort doodle I did of Daniel! I just love him so much ❤️ [a literal masterpiece, the best art you’ve ever seen in your entire life] [3 notes]

average allison kerry fan: i am hardcore attached to ONE ship which is probably either allison/amanda or allison/lindsey and my whole blog is devoted to them. there are dozens of us DOZENS

average lynn denlon fan: okay so i know bahar is a realtor now but in her last instagram post where she’s congratulating her son on some new achievement, both the first and last words in the post have 11 letters, AND there’s an X and an I visible in the background of her post 👀?? is this a reach???

average jeff denlon fan: No seriously let me finish seriously when you compare him to the other shitty men in Saw he’s NOT that b

average david tapp fan: i’m 39k away from publishing my 40k tappsing Everybody Lives AU <3 this is going to be epic [account has been deactivated for an indeterminate amount of time]

average brit stevenson and mallick scott fan: Hey I stayed up making this instead of writing my thesis paper for grad school. Here’s a 30,000 word document about the implications of Brit’s promotion within the Marshford group and how it would lead to her eventual demise and also how she rose to the top in her group. It also delves into her relationship with Mallick, whose existence, I believe, is an obvious literary reference to an ancient Roman play read by only me and three other people currently alive. I translated relevant passages and included them in my work. I got understimulated around page 8 so I did take a break to pierce myself in the same spot that I believe Mallick would have a piercing. If you read my fics on AO3 you will already be familiar with the location.

average peter strahm fan: haha peter does CRACK cocoaine haha i think he sniffeds some drugs! why else would he be so MANIC HYPER CRAZY!!! i love my crazy JUNKIE man LOL get him some andderall STAT!! if hoffman didn’t kill him the SPEED certianly would of! LOL!

average lindsey perez fan: i love lindsey perez i’m such a big fan of the character lindsey perez

average matt gibson fan: i literally would eat garbage out of a dumpster

average ezekiel banks fan: holy shit i just finished spiral what a good movie what the hell!!! what a cool addition to the saw universe! i bet everybody else loves this as much as i do! let me take a big drink of water as i check tumblr dot com to see all the nice things people will have to say about darren lynn bousman’s Spiral

average william schenk fan: my hobbies include: being a fujoshi,

average cecelia pederson fan: [pic of cecelia yanking on the metal loop around her neck and smirking] https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vT3f5IIzt5PG-M7G9_Z-gjY4gZaiUneTdMlYrFAcdBGcJo0-N-RDQcj2JfxOaBTxKa6J_DiDQNgqVpg/pub

average logan jigsaw fan: What people don’t realize about John, is he’s such a genius that even when he makes mistakes, he planned on making the mistakes. He is the greatest villain of all time

[giveamadeuschohisownmovie]

Looking back at the older Saw movies, I’m wondering now if the series would have a better reputation if it had been treated more like an anthology. Because the two best movies in the franchise (1 and X) are the ones that could stand on their own, while the lower-tier ones are the ones that deal with the convoluted timeline.

I’m thinking something along the lines of Scream in which it’s the “same” villain, Jigsaw, but with different people in the role. There was a different Ghostface in every Scream movie, which worked for that franchise. Maybe Saw could’ve done it like that.

In fact, just off the top of my head, here’s how Saw could’ve looked as a semi-anthology:

Saw 1

* It’s the same

Saw 2

* It’s mostly the same, but John Kramer has to die at the end of it (he probably dies from Eric Matthews’ beatings). Saw 2 ends conclusively, as if this was the end of the franchise.

Saw 3

* Takes place two years later.

* Jeff and Lynn Denlon are the subjects.

* The story is centered around a copycat Jigsaw, who is revealed to be Amanda Young. Amanda secretly became John’s apprentice and has now taken his place.

* Amanda escapes at the end.

Saw 4

* Takes place simultaneously as 3.

* Daniel Rigg is the subject.

* Here, it’s revealed that Amanda was working with someone, meaning there were 2 copycat Jigsaws the whole time. The ending reveals that the 2nd copycat is Mark Hoffman, one of the lead detectives.

* Mark gets away and picks up Amanda, who has just left the game from the previous movie.

(NOTE: I want to emphasize that even though this takes place at the same time as 3, this movie is meant to be seen as a standalone. You don’t have to watch 3 to understand 4 is what I mean)

Saw 5

* Takes place a few weeks later, brings together the events of 3 and 4.

* Amanda and Hoffman put together a new game (the five-become-one teamwork trap) while trying to avoid the police.

* The movie ends with Hoffman betraying Amanda and shooting her dead, only for him to fall for one of Amanda’s booby traps (the closing walls trap that killed Strahm). So, 5 ends with Hoffman getting smushed as Amanda bleeds to death.

Saw 6

* Takes place a few years after 4 and 5.

* Detective Zeke Banks is the subject.

* A new Jigsaw copycat - also known as the Spiral Killer, to distinguish them from the other Jigsaws - pops up. The ending reveals that the new Jigsaw/Spiral is William Schenk, one of the detectives working the case.

* Schenk gets away with his crimes, setting up the 7th movie.

Saw 7

* A direct continuation of the 6th movie.

* William Easton is the subject, but has more of an involvement with Jigsaw/Schenk.

* Schenk dies at the end of it, but not before taking Easton down with him.

Saw 8

* Takes place a year after 6 and 7.

* The subjects are Bobby Dagen, his wife Jill Tuck-Dagen, and their family and friends.

* First twist: Just like the original series, Jill is revealed to be John’s ex-wife.

* Second twist: This Jigsaw is revealed to be Melissa Sing and that the reason why she’s testing Bobby, Jill, their family and their friends is vengeance for her husband’s death (Detective Steven Sing).

* Bobby and Jill survive while Melissa is arrested at the end.

Saw 9

* At least takes place several years after the 1st movie. The timeline isn’t as important for this one.

* Revealed that Dr. Gordon from the first movie did survive since John saved his life. Instead of asking him to become his apprentice, John allows him to return to his life. However, his life since surviving the bathroom trap has been horrible, leading him down a downward spiral.

* Main story: When Gordon learns his colleagues have been involved in a scam targeting the terminally ill, disgusted by their actions, he decides to put them through a series of brutal tests.

* Basically, in this alternate timeline, Gordon became a Jigsaw copycat through his own volition rather than John recruiting him.

* Gordon escapes at the end and decides to retire from the Jigsaw role.

Saw 10

* Takes place a few weeks after the 9th movie.

* Focuses on a manhunt for a Jigsaw copycat (assumed to be Gordon). It’s only at the end that we learn Gordon was in an entirely different state during the events of this movie.

* The new Jigsaw is revealed to be Logan Nelson, the coroner who appeared earlier in the movie. Since Melissa and Gordon were one-off Jigsaws, Logan is set up to be the new main Jigsaw.

/

/

/

You can read the revised, semi-anthology timeline like this:

The John Kramer arc is 1 and 2

The Amanda and Hoffman arc is 3, 4, and 5

The Spiral Killer arc is 6 and 7

8 and 9 are standalone movies

10 is the beginning of the Logan Nelson arc

Even though the movies do lead into each other, the arcs are meant to stand on their own and the timeline is much less convoluted. Also, not everything ties back to John, which I feel would give the franchise more creative freedom.

[williameschenk]

Shocking! Playing crying baby sounds over and over again at my sleep deprived brain has had the same effect as having an actual crying baby in the other room. It's fine, I didn't fall asleep. I got a lot of building done.

Should probably get out of here before this becomes a migraine.

[dalekofchaos]

Context.

Canon motives basically confirms envy of Henry and desire for immortality

The games, at least 1-6 suggest William is doing this to put his family back together

More context for William always being awful William was always awful. William like most serial killers always had darkness within him, but William like most serial killers is charming and deceptive. Capable of hiding his darkness behind a smile and was seen as a Santa Claus like figure and had the guise of perfect family. No one could ever suspected William Afton could be the Man Behind The Slaughter. But behind closed doors, William’s family life was miserable. His wife left him and he was negligent and abusive towards his kids and insane. William killed Charlie to destroy the image of Henry’s perfect family and to make him feel what he feels. After killing Charlie, he discovered Remnant and decided to kill children for immortality, then build animatronics to kill children and use the animatronics to replace his broken family. And as Unbroken says “If I can’t have my perfect little family, well, then I’ll have plenty of time to make a better one”

A mix of the three

He was always awful, he was jealous of Henry and he got worse as CC and Elizabeth died. Tried to justify what he was doing to bring his family back, but in reality all he cared about was himself.

There was always something wrong with him, but he masked it too well

He was best friends with Henry, but holds jealousy and resentment towards him

William loved his family, but after his wife divorced him and killed herself, he went down a downward spiral

He killed Charlie to destroy Henry's image of the perfect family and to make him feel what he feels

After Crying Child's death, he hated Michael and punished him via the Nightmare Animatronics

One day William discovered remnant after seeing The Puppet.

He kills the MCI kids. Then the DCI kids. Builds the Funtimes and experiments on multiple kids via the Nightmare animatronics.

Elizabeth gets scooped.

At first it started out because he wanted to put his family back together, but then William's madness is out and he does this for himself, no matter who he has to destroy to make his desire for immortality a reality.

William wanted to bring his family back and make his family immortal in the Funtime Animatronics. Elizabeth would be baby. Michael would be Funtime Foxy. Mrs Afton would be Ballora and Crying Child would be Funtime Freddy.

[aloneonceagainaspredicted]

something i find so sneaky funny of william schenk is that if this motherfucker ain't downright lying to ezekiel then he's telling him the most insane truths about himself, his feelings and intentions but in that ambiguous kind of way that will only really truly have weight and meaning when everything's revealed— he's such a scheming little shit, i imagine he drives zeke crazy surprising him left and right with minimal clues spread across the daily chat when they work as partners, which would be hilarious if he's the biggest reason ezekiel hates surprises now.

[goblin-the-clown]

I wanted to discuss the theory that if the afton kids didn't die from the animatronics, William would have just killed them anyway. In my opinion, I think this theory is stupid.

First of let's start with the fact that Evan's death was the event that started Williams spiral into insanity. I really don't think he would have been capable of murder before that. He's most likely always had violent urges (as is the case with most serial killers) but he's more focused on his business than acting on them up until that point. So if Evan never died why would he feel the motivation to kill anyone? Let alone his own children for seemingly no reason.

I am a big believer that Afton doesn't love his kids, but there's obviously some level of care for them. At least that's the case with Evan and Elizabeth, since he clearly didn't want their deaths to happen. Maybe it's a desire for normalcy? Before the bite, he's mainly focused on building robots and entertaining children, but the bite changed all of that. If another one of his children were to die there would be no chance of ever getting that life back. That's one possible reason for wanting to bring Evan back. It could also be because of his fear of death, seeing the people around him die reminds him that one day he will meet the same fate. I'm not certain, but we'll be here all day if I keep discussing this.

Also he kept Mike around for that long, he doesn't seem to really care about him, but he still doesn't directly murder him. My theory is that he knew he would be useful to him, afterall, not many other people would be willing to go down into the death bunker to "rescue" his daughter even though she's been missing for years. So yeah, here are the main reasons Afton would not kill his children.

He sees them as useful

He would literally have no reason to

Evan's death was the thing that sent him spiralling in the first place

He doesn't hate them, he just doesn't care about them and killing them would do nothing for him

He'd probably be the first suspect and most likely get caught

[dw-tma]

Descriptions of the Fears from the Magnus Archives Wiki:

The Buried-

“The fear of small spaces, suffocating, drowning, being buried alive. Fear of everything crashing down around/on oneself. Fear of being trapped without enough space. Manifests as caves, dirt, financial issues, heavy rain, underground transport, tight spaces such as coffins.”

The Corruption-

“The fear of corruption, disease, filth. Fear of the feelings of disgust, revulsion and the things or beings that might evoke such feelings. Manifests as mould, bugs, rot, decay, infection, the feeling of one's skin crawling. Can also manifest as unhealthy love and companionship.”

The Dark-

“The primal fear of the dark, of the unseen, and the creatures hiding from our view... Manifests as creatures hidden in the dark, shadow figures and monsters, blindness, coldness, dark water.”

The Desolation-

“The fear of pain, loss, burning, and destruction, especially with a senseless cause. Followers are enriched by destroying the lives of people who had things to live for, and destroying things before their potential is realised. Manifests as fire, wax, heat, burns, destruction of potential.”

The End-

“The fear of death itself—⁠uncaring and unstoppable, the fear that everything ends eventually. Manifests as bones, various forms of the dead (skeletons, mummies, zombies, etc.). Also has close ties to dreams and can manifest through them.”

The Eye-

“The fear of being watched, exposed, followed, having secrets exposed. Can also pertain to the drive to know and understand, even if your discoveries might destroy you. Manifests as eyes, security cameras, a creature or figure that keeps constant watch. Often manifests in libraries and books.”

The Flesh-

“Born from the fear held by animals bred for meat, and in the human realisation that we are just animated meat and bones. Manifests as meat, corpses, blood, bones, butchers, meat-related industry. Often manifests as strange bodies—bodies being unnaturally twisted, reshaped, and butchered.”

The Hunt-

“The animalistic fear of being chased or hunted; the primal fear of being prey. Manifests as predators, predatory monsters, animal instincts, animalistic traits. Takes hold of apparently "normal" people after they are exposed to the need for The Hunt. Self-proclaimed monster hunters might become 'Hunters' and proceed to develop a need to hunt and kill monsters.”

The Lonely-

“The fear of isolation, of being completely cut off and alone or disconnected from the rest of society. Manifests as fog, large rooms, silence, suburbs, empty rooms, crowds of faceless people.”

The Slaughter-

“The fear of pure, unpredictable, unmotivated violence. The fear of pain coming at sudden, random moments. Manifests as people driven "mad with Slaughter," soldiers, music that either induces Slaughter or warns that Slaughter is coming. Often manifests in imagery of war or murder, and can appear wild like a frenzied killer or calm and regimented like soldiers firing on the battlefield.”

The Spiral-

“The fear of madness, that the world you know is wrong, that your mind is lying to you. Fear of deception, lying, deceiving of the mind and senses. The Spiral appears with imagery of spirals, patterns and fractals, and often manifests as hallucinations or illusions.”

The Stranger-

“The fear of the unknown, the uncanny, the unfamiliar. The creeping sense that something is not right. Manifests as beings and aspects of beings that provoke an "uncanny valley" response: human and other being-adjacent forms, such as mannequins, wax figures, masks, and taxidermy. Often manifests in theatres and performances.”

The Vast-

“The fear of heights, falling, and large open spaces including sky, space, and deep water. More broadly: the human fear of insignificance and meaninglessness, of losing oneself in too much space. Manifests as void, wide-open spaces, vertigo, falling, the transformation of something that should have a limit into something infinite.”

The Web-

“The fear of being controlled or trapped, especially being unaware of one's own entrapment. The fear of being forced to do things against one's own will, of being manipulated. Also the fear of spiders. Manifests as spiders, spider webs, web-like patterns, puppets.”