#Someone really should say to jc that his feelings matter

[add1ctedt0you]

Jiang Cheng, confronting Wei Wuxian

[acowardinmordor]

You Left Me - You Miss Me - 4

Part One - Part Two - Part Three - Part Four

Hi, time for more, arguably making things better, but also arguably making things much worse.

----

There was a diner a block and a half from their apartment. Steve found it when the sky opened up during his jog one morning. Snow, he could have handled, he was dressed for it. Slushy sleet mixed with hail was another matter. He ducked inside to hide until it passed, chatted with the owner for a bit, and brought Robin with him the next day because they had an amazing spread of waffle toppings, including crumbled bacon, and Steve knew she’d go crazy about it.

He was correct, and it was their go to spot, not just for breakfast. 

At the end of January, Rebecca sat down to join them, and handed Steve an application. 

Steve was already working at a JC Penny in the stock room, and picked up a few hours at a roller rink filling in when someone called out. They had enough money to live. Not decadently, but they could cover all their bills, and keep gas in the car, and buy supplies for Robin’s classes.  

“Uh, Rebecca, I’m- thank you? But. My memory sucks, and my hearing isn’t great, and if someone starts getting rude, I’m going to get rude back to them, and --”

“This is a diner, hun,” she stopped him, “You write the orders down, you can always tell someone to say it again, and the fact you can shut down anyone that gives you lip is why I think you’ll be good at it. Like I said, it’s a diner. We don’t have to be all sunshine and daisies here.”

“I’m working at another--”

“Over at the mall and the rink, I know. And I know you’re free Monday through Wednesday mornings. And,” she stressed, “staff gets free meals and first dibs on the day olds.”

“Dingus!" Robin gasped and grabbed his arm. "Do it, do it. Stevie. Please, oh my god, please, you have to take it. You can bring me the brioche buns. And that apple butter. And that thing with the nuts! Steeevveee, don’t you love your soulmate? Please? I cou--”

So Steve took the job, and worked a few mornings a week. By the third week of February, he stopped feeling like he was going to fuck up any second. He understood why Rebecca liked his ability to get bitchy in the face of difficult customers, and he and Robin had cupboards well stocked with random take homes. 

He liked it. Starting at five in the morning took some getting used to, but he was done by one, and traded off with a middle aged mom named Susan after the lunch rush settled down. Was it a ton of money? No. But he got more tips than he expected to, and the brioche really was delicious. 

The last week of February, he was working alone on a Tuesday, at the start of the lunch rush, expecting Susan to arrive soon, and an easy day. 

“Be with you in a minute,” he called to whoever just came inside, bussing half a dozen empty plates from table two after dropping off more creamer at table four. He looped back, ducking behind the counter to put the plates on the pass through for Nick to grab. 

He dropped the entire stack before he got there.

His hands clenched down, his muscles locked, and even though it should have made him hold harder, everything slipped, and either shattered on the tiles or banged into his feet.

Jim Hopper winced from his seat at the counter. “Sorry, kid.”

The couple of other diners glanced up to check on him, and John looked around the window from the kitchen. Steve didn’t move. Couldn't. Could barely breathe.

“Is it back?”

“No.”

His exhale shook out of him before he shoved down the panic.

“Then whatever this is can wait.” 

“I’m just here to talk.”

“And I said it can wait.”

He swept up the broken dishes, shrugged off John’s silent offer to throw Hopper out, and reminded himself there was no reason to think that the Upside Down was back. That meant this was going to be more awkward and less dangerous, and he was going to hate it, but it was still the better version of the day. 

“What’ll you have?” 

“Kid, I’m here to talk cause I didn’t think you’d want me at your place.”

“And I’m at work, and this is a diner, so what’ll you have?”

“Steve--”

“I’ll bring you coffee. I’m not talking about this while I’m working.”

“Coffee’s good. When are you off?”

Steve gave his bitchiest smile, didn’t answer, and went to seat the couple that just walked in. 

The lunch rush was a mercy. Susan handled Hopper, and gave him the iciest service anyone had ever gotten under that roof. Hopper took it gracefully, but he didn’t shift, or push, or give any indication that he wasn’t willing to sit there til midnight if he had to. 

Normally, Steve would get some lunch to go and head home. If the weather was bad, he ate at the booth in the corner to wait it out. With the way his stomach was twisting, unable to separate Hopper from what his arrival could mean, he wasn’t going to keep food down. He filled a glass of water, then silently gestured Hop to follow. 

“Good to see you, Steve,” he said when they sat. “You and Robin doing okay up here?”

“We’re fine. Why are you here? If it isn’t something to do with, you know, then why are you here?”

“Maybe I just came up to check on you.”

“Did you?” Steve snorted into his drink when that question made Hopper’s face twist up. “So what is this?”

“I am here to check on you. There’s something else, but I came here because I’m checking on you. Me and you weren’t all that close, but you had Mrs Buckley give me your info so I’d know where you were.”

“Yeah, in case of an emergency. And you said there wasn’t any emergency. Plus, you had my phone number, so you could have called, which would be way less weird than showing up while I’m at work, you know?”

Hopper scratched at his cheek. “It’s not an emergency compared to all the reasons you wanted me to be able to find you, but if you ask those kids, this may as well be the end of the world again.”

Steve rolled his eyes. “Yeah, right.”

“Yeah, well. Henderson is gonna get himself arrested if he keeps trying to steal the mail and find something addressed to you. Max keeps pushing El to try and find you. The only reason they haven’t gone completely crazy is because of the Buckleys telling them that you’re fine. She gave me your address and number, and she talked for a little bit about the kids.” 

Steve smiled at that. Mrs Buckley had never talked a ‘little bit’ about anything in her life. Either she was holding the line on being rude to anyone that might bother them, or Hop was pretending he hadn’t listened to a solid hour of rambling.  

“Still haven’t told me why you’re here.”

“Want to ask if I can -- shit, I don’t know. I can route mail back and forth so they never have your address or something. I’d rather give them your info so I don’t have to be involved, but I already know you won’t agree to that.”

Steve ignored the pause that Hopper left there. Conversation and good manners said he should concede to something so he wouldn’t inconvenience the man too much. The last month with Robin supporting his choice kept his mouth shut. She’d be pissed at him if he folded, and worse, she’d help him get through all the pain it caused if he did talk to the kids again. Then he’d feel guilty and sad. 

“Alright,” Hopper grumbled, “Didn’t think you would, but you know how those kids can be. Can’t fault me for trying.”

“So, we’re done? You sat here all this time just to talk for three minutes?”

“Almost.” 

“So….” At least Steve could enjoy the fact that neither of them were enjoying this.  Hopper winced a bit before he spoke. 

“I didn’t tell any of the kids I was coming up to see you. None of them knew, and none of them are gonna know. Didn’t even tell Joyce why, just that I was driving up to Indy. Already had a plan in case they tried to tail me up here. So, had a surprise this morning when I got to my truck. it might change your answer.”

“Didn’t know you were so dramatic about stuff.”

“Side effect of two hours with that surprise, I guess. Eddie Munson came up with me.”

Any of the kids would have hurt. 

Henderson might have made him cry. 

Eddie Munson? That didn’t make sense. 

They weren’t friends, never had been. The Upside Down meant they were connected, but they were never more than acquaintances, even when Steve was desperately trying to keep them all close. Sure, he’d taken over as the chauffeur for the kids, and everyone’s new best friend, but that didn’t explain why he’d bother to come up to talk to Steve. 

“What the hell? Why?”

“He asked.”

“And you said yes.”

“He said please.”

That was not the whole story. There was something getting skipped over, left out. Hopper tolerated Munson, but he wouldn’t do him a favor if there wasn’t some kind of monster involved. 

“Wait, you’ve been here for two hours.”

“Yep.”

“Did you just leave him in your truck this whole time? That front came through overnight. The high is thirty four today.”

“Yeah, I did,” Hopper said flatly. “He told me he wanted to come up so he could talk to you. Told me a little bit about why. And I said yes and I let him come, but I told him that I was gonna talk to you first. If you said no, he was gonna stay in that seat clear back to Hawkins, and keep his mouth shut about this whole thing.”

“How’d he know what you were doing?”

“No clue.”

“What does he want to talk about?”

“Not gonna say it for him.” Hopper shifted towards the edge of the booth. “So, want me to tell him to buckle back up, or tell him to get his ass in here?”

A quick consult with the imaginary Robin in his head left him just as confused, but curious as hell. He agreed, and fidgeted with a napkin, struggling to think of any reason why Eddie Munson would want to talk to him, or what the hell he said that the kids hadn’t that convinced Hopper to drive him up. 

Stuck in his head, Steve jumped when a mess of a man in denim and leather slid shivering into the seat opposite. The scars on his face and hands were less vivid than they were last time they saw each other, but they still worked as a thermometer. Steve's did the same.

“Why the hell were you sitting in the cold, man?”

Eddie blinked, and froze where he was rubbing his hands together trying to get feeling back. “Hopper took the keys.”

Steve’s turn to blink. This was the guy taking care of his kids. 

“Susan?” He called, gesturing for two when she lifted the coffee carafe in a question.

“You don’t need to do that.”

“Dude, I don’t know what the hell you’re doing here or why you care or what the hell is happening, but I’m not gonna let you sit there shaking cause you’re a dumbass who doesn’t know what gloves are.”

Steve watched packet after packet of sugar pour into Eddie’s, while he stirred a splash of half and half into his own cup. Eddie took a gulp, hissed at the heat, and clutched at the mug, eyes glued to the nicked surface of the table. 

“I’m sorry.”

“For rotting your teeth out? That’s your choice, Munson.”

“No,” Eddie insisted, voice hoarse, “I’m sorry about the kids.”

Steve took a breath, took a sip, took another breath. “Look, man, that’s not on you. You play D&D with them, and you like all their nerdy shit. I was -- They grew up. We got through everything, all of that, we won, and they grew up. It’s not your fault that they like you more than they liked me. So, thanks, I guess, but--”

“Steve. No. They didn’t. They -- those kids did not suddenly grow up and decide they didn’t like you anymore. You are their favorite person anywhere, ever, you will be for the rest of eternity, and they don’t understand why no one will tell them how to reach you. They put on a really good show about being mad about it, but, come on, you know what they’re like. They want to apologize cause they know they hurt you, and they want to fix it, and just, you gotta let them try, Steve. You gotta let them talk to you. They miss you so fucking much.”

“Look, I know how they get, and I know how dramatic they are, but it’s still not your fault--”

“It is. Steve. It is my fault. That’s - That’s why you have to talk to them. Cause they didn’t grow up and get over you or decide they didn’t care about you. Those kids are crazy about you, and they never stopped, and they’re hurt right now cause they don’t understand why you left them, and you gotta fix it with them, please.”

Something pinged weird in his ear when he heard the way Munson’s voice cracked. Not just worry, not just helping, not just caring about the kids. Guilt. He was taking the blame for it, even though that didn’t make any sense. The kids were - brats, gremlins, terrors, the most stubborn people he’d ever met, and he knew Nancy Wheeler. If they wanted to be around him, they would be around him. 

It wasn’t Eddie’s fault, or anyone’s fault. It hurt like hell, and Steve wished it wasn’t true, but this was just life. Kids grew up, their interests moved. Friendships changed and ended. 

But that crack of guilt…

“How is it your fault and not theirs that they stopped wanting to ever see me?”

Eddie’s hands stopped shaking from the cold before he got the coffee. 

His hands were shaking again.

Trembled in the time between Steve asking, and Eddie managing to respond.  

“I, uh, I asked them to.”

----

Don't be too mad at him yet. He has a lot more to say.

Part Five >>>

[doufudanshi]

for anyone who criticizes jyl for bringing soup to yiling instead of like, money—

we should first ask: could jyl actually have given wwx money? she must have something, you say. the jins are rich! she could even give him some of her betrothal gifts.

but realistically jyl probably didn't have much money at all! let's think this through. not only did she not marry jzx yet at the time of her yiling visit, but (based on many, many imperial palace tv shows lol) all her worth would be in betrothal gifts of jewelry, fine clothing, or other misc items, which is 1) heavy and difficult to transport without notice, but that doesn't actually matter bc it's ultimately 2) disrespectful to sell and worse to have the gifter find out when they come by for tea and you begin chatting about the event in two days and they say oh where's that one-of-a-kind jade bracelet I gave you wouldn't it match the also one-of-a-kind silk garment that lady jin gave you sooo well oh you will look so lovely in it won't you wear it.

or worse, have it recognized in some random pawn shop on the street by someone who has never really liked you and WILL get you in deep shit for it.

does jyl have any money from the jiang side? well, jc has been busy at work rebuilding lotus pier and the clan since before wwx's defection, and even if he's not borrowing a shitton of money from the jins (which he almost certainly is), he definitely has the opposite of surplus funds. he's also busy organizing and buying gifts for the wedding too, making him go more in the red because you know the jins aren't going to want cheap-ass things even if you don't have money.

let's say jyl did get a significant bride price (aka given money money)—not only does that go to her family (jc), but it is given during the ceremony (which, again, hasn't happened yet). and, realistically, jc probably will have to use it to offset the costs of the above.

beyond that, let's just take this scene from a storytelling perspective. sometimes it is simply about the emotional resonance. the vibes. let's say jyl did have some funds to give wwx. but imagine if jyl was like here a-xian take all this money 😐 ok sure useful for some period. but is that the gift that wwx would want during the first time he's gotten to see her in months, and likely the last time he will see her in a long, long time (possibly years)? would that be impactful for the story?

meanwhile, the soup she brings represents her love. we hear in the extra, from wwx's own words, the care she put into selecting the ingredients, making sure the lotus root is fresh and perfectly ripe. it also takes hours for her to even make iirc. wwx derives so much comfort from it—that's why it comes up again and again. it is one of his first memories of feeling safe in lotus pier, of home. it provides wwx some semblance of normalcy. he hasn't had any this entire time, and is likely something he aches for whenever he's homesick or sad or questioning his choices. it is simply, given the circumstances, incredibly thoughtful. (and how meaningful was it to see wn treat it with such respect? seeing that is literally the moment in the chapter when wwx realizes—ah. the wens are people I cherish as well.)

and regarding jyl coming in her wedding dress—it is not for herself. it is for wwx. we saw how devastated wwx was just to even hear that jyl was getting married because he had to hear it from someone who wasn't jc or jyl. and to immediately then realize he cannot go? even more heartbreaking. and jyl, who clearly knows wwx extremely well, would know, without having to ask, how upset wwx would be to miss such a huge occasion in their lives that was previously a given. this is what she can do to offset that, even just a little. because jyl came in her dress, wwx gets to experience a piece of her wedding even though he cannot physically be there. not to be a 2000s mastercard ad, but there really are some things that money can't buy.

idk there's also some fist-shaking at the class discrepancy in the scene. and I get it. it sucks! her dress is certainly lavish, and the wens are farming on a corpse mountain and have only just started making a bit of money. yes, it's fine to think that if you were in the character's shoes, maybe you would've found it to be in poor taste—but the story isn't about you. it is about these characters, and what this scene means to them. and I'm of the camp that if there is no indication that wwx is upset by any of this, and in fact moved by it, there really isn't reason for the reader to be righteously indignant about these things on a character's behalf. that's just not the focus or the point of the scene.

plus, jyl is sharp. she is likely more aware of the discrepancy than most people think. she has also been shown in the text to not just be another sheltered, spoiled noble (re jzx soup incident). but if what you want is guilt from jyl—I personally think that guilt is performative, and accomplishes nothing. her guilt would've only made wwx unhappy. instead, here is an action that is meaningful and brings joy to wwx. to share her joy with him is not selfishness, nor is it some lack of awareness of their situation. if in this moment, she shows off her dress, if she revels in her joy, her happiness, it is for wwx, and wwx is incredibly moved by it.

and let's face it—wwx, of all people, would want to see jyl in a wedding dress that cost more than rebuilding lotus pier from the ground up. he wouldn't want anything less.

[lansplaining]

Protagonist-centric readers will do anything but admit that their MCs did lie and impact other characters' decisions. It's not the side-characters fault that they did not know the whole truth because *drum roll* they weren't told anything and/or was deliberately lied to.

LQQ being hated bc he impaled XL in a coffin for a long time but like... XL admitted to killing the King of Yong'an and committing the bloody massacre so what was LQQ supposed to do? Sit down and ask his Guoshi for the truth when we know damn well XL will just continue to admit to it? XL didn't want to tell LQQ the truth to protect LQQ and the two groups of people, and that's completely admirable, but what LQQ saw was his Guoshi stabbing a sword through his father's chest and admitting to everything so him reacting the way he did was completely valid. The single act of killing the king was treason 100x already, and as the son of the king, LQQ's reaction was not out of the ordinary. we don't want XL to suffer and be even more traumatized, but XL already knew that the consequences wouldn't be pretty and lied anyway. idk why fans can't grasp that.

Or for JC's case, HE IS LITERALLY THE ONE PERSON ALIVE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD WHO ACTUALLY DESERVES SOME KIND OF EXPLANATION FROM WWX HIMSELF, THE MAN WHO ACCIDENTALLY CAUSED WN TO KILL JXZ AND INDIRECTLY KILLED JYL DESPITE CLAIMING THAT HE HAD EVERYTHING UNDER CONTROL. These two aren't strangers to JC at all; they're his sister and his brother-in-law, or more importantly, his sister's beloved husband and father of his nephew. He deserves to be angry and bitter at the one person who did all that, and there is no time limit for how long he should remain bitter and angry about it. The GCT was a whole mess and they both made HUGE sacrifices out of love but the only one whose sacrifice is made invalid is JC because one, it was short-lived and two, they already didn't like JC so no matter what he does for WWX, it will be seen as something negative.

I don't even want to get into the hell-hole regarding LXC but... damn...

the revelations after a character found out the truth should be "oh man, so that's what really happened" not "this character was a dick because they didn't know about the major sacrifice the MC made for them that would only be revealed many years later, and it's not even voluntary because someone else told the truth, not the MC themself"

I'm not the first nor am I the last person to say this but a protagonist is just a character we see, mainly, from their POV or the character that we follow the story through. That's all there is to it. I feel like a lot of danmei readers have yet to read a variety of stories about an MC that's completely shit but serves to tell a story just as important and interesting.

okay, first of all-- people hate LQQ?? The sweetest, most violent himbo of all????????????? even Xie Lian doesn't hate him for what he did??????

i have nothing to say to such people

i'll be honest, it is really only relatively recently that i've fully come to realise how completely Jiang Cheng deserves an explanation or even just acknowledgement of any kind from Wei Wuxian, and how cowardly and selfish it is that Wei Wuxian refuses to give it. and I say this with a heart full of love for WWX-- he is dealing with Some Trauma (tm) but that doesn't mean his refusal to even speak to JC isn't hurtful and unfair, even if it's what he needs... but man everyone in fandom and fanworks is focused on WWX taking what he needs in this situation and not even remotely considering that just maybe he also justifiably owes something to someone he harmed and who he supposedly (formerly?) cared about (i think he still cares)

the lan xichen thing is literally inexplicable to me and i will never understand it

[catmaid-san]

favourite wangxian scene or dialogue exchange if you wish to share?

@wutheringskies Hmm this is hard since I adore every WangXian interaction. But lately, I'm most impressed with the scene during the 2nd Siege.

This scene makes me so happy. It feels like a fulfillment of both of their wish. To be accompanied, and to accompany.

This scene also sounds like a proposal. When it comes to WWX, his chosen life path matters more than any affection. In the past, often times whenever he attempted to do something, no one was there to accompany him. So when he asked LWJ to accompany what he wanted to do, it felt like asking LWJ if he was willing to accompany him on his chosen path in life, a.k.a sharing weal and woes.

Those Hundreds of Clans were there to besiege WWX, yet they were entrapped and about to be massacred by their trusted and beloved Governor. WWX could have ditched them on their own, considering their original intention. However, despite the stabbed wound in his abdomen has yet to recover and should be aggravated even, as it was later showed that:

,,,, he still chose to yet again, endangered his own life to save lives. You know what JC will say about this? It is a Heroic complex. "What do those people's lives matter to us?"

But this kind of choice has always been WWX's life path. Just like what he did in XuanWu Cave or with the Wen remnants. Therefore to have someone who not only agrees to his choice but is also willing to accompany him, really means a lot.

To me, this is like a declaration, a spoken proposal for WangXian before even the Heaven and Earth kowtows or the Love Confession. WWX should have already realized LWJ would follow him, yet he still asked for a spoken agreement. And LWJ, despite how he usually rarely responds in words but in action, he gave the assurance verbally with firm determination. And that is what I found, endearing.

[pharahsgf]

Looking at that on JC fans thinking WWX belong to JC actually and makes me think about how many of the stans are just not willing to see the Wen Remnants as people within the narrative. There’s all these excuses, there’s all these “well Wei Wuxian abandoned Jiang Cheng and broke his promise! Wei Wuxian is actually the one who should’ve done things differently! Jiang Cheng made so many sacrifices like giving up his dogs for Wei Wuxian!” that it’s so so clear that they don’t see the Wen Remnants as hurt, innocent people (OLD PEOPLE AND A BABY) that WWX is protecting because it is the right thing to do and instead are a plot device for him to hurt Jiang Cheng and then fall to his own “hubris” and “savior complex” and it’s such a bonkers take, like Jiang Cheng’s feelings are more important to them in the story then like actual lives in the story.

Like both Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng commit fantasy war crimes and do some pretty fucked up stuff, the difference is Wei Wuxian is like “hmmm I shouldn’t have done most of that, that was a bad thing to do actually” and Jiang Cheng just…doubles down and continues the cycle of cruelty and so many people who love Jiang Cheng don’t want to accept that. They don’t want Wei Wuxian to have grown up and Jiang Cheng to be trapped in the past, they can’t stomach it, and it’s so funny because of the wild takes they’ll make because of it.

I love Jiang Cheng as a character, he’s complex, he’s interesting, he’s funny, and he’s *wrong*, like it’s so important within the narrative and to his character is that he’s wrong, he’s wrong to say the Wen Remnants should die, he’s wrong to help lead the first siege of the burial mounds, and then his stans take that and go “what if Jiang Cheng was completely in the right about everything he did actually?” and it’s just so bonkers

the key to those apologist narratives is that personhood is withheld from everybody who isn't jiang cheng. your average jc defense post will posit that it was more convenient for jiang cheng to let the wens die and that his specific situation and trauma made it hard for him to do otherwise, therefore the morality of his actions aren't even worth considering. it's taken as a given that jiang cheng's safety and success weigh heavier than the lives of fifty-odd people, two of which literally risked everything to help jiang cheng when the situation was reversed. jc-centric takes on wei wuxian's actions are so crazy because it's all being analysed through a lens of "does this hurt or benefit jiang cheng, the only person who matters?"

i really love these last two paragraphs. jc stans dismissing wei wuxian's development because jiang cheng is so fucking static is something i hadn't even considered lmao, but it absolutely does check out - they love nothing more than pointing at the horror movie shit wei wuxian pulled in his yllz era and claiming this means you can't criticise jiang cheng somehow, when in reality wei wuxian moved on and bettered himself while jiang cheng is an active murderer and torturer pushing 40. wei wuxian ultimately stayed true to his ideals of protecting the weak and vulnerable; jiang cheng remained as someone the weak and vulnerable need to be protected FROM.

[sasukimimochi]

i wanna ramble about my view on JC but i'm so bad at words

so like, i see posts where people talk about these things JC does or WWX holds back from, i don't wanna go searching but also want to leave these details out cuz i don't want to accidentally call people out cuz that is not my intention (not that i have the audience to do something like that) so i'm just gonna go from my memory and kinda summarize what i think abt him...

gonna add a read more line bc this gets long!

Uh, btw please no hostility i'm not trying to start arguments, these are just my thoughts i really wanted to get out there. i'm definitely no therapist or psychologist so take this with a grain of salt, this is the view of just an average reader who retains a lot of info [tho still manages to miss details at times]. Anyway if you have info you think i should have addressed, reply and i'll make additions if i agree/want to expand on the info presented to me!

So, WWX and JC have a weird thing going on, it's not exactly brothers but they definitely wanted that, the reason why i say they aren't solidly brothers is because i'm pretty sure Madam Yu has influenced JC from the start of his arrival which is why he doesn't call wwx a-xian or Wei Ying or A-Ying- Why he doesn't allow himself to let loose properly around anyone even in private, why he constantly scolds wwx, etc. i believe firmly he's been quite influenced by his parents due to him being the next sect heir and the pressure that comes from it, as well as what he feels like madam yu is correct on- wwx is uncle jiang's favorite.

Madam Yu still chides Yanli for doing domestic acts for WWX but not on the same level as JC, who is constantly under pressure by her to be the perfect heir to the sect. She wants him to be better than WWX, which of course affects all of the family but Yanli gets left out of the fire a bit, which i think is what gives her such a strength to do these supportive acts for the brothers [and why she's also both the brother's favorite. She's basically the mom they wish for. Supportive, understanding, and helps mediate them]. Though this is a burden she has to bear, it's not that big of a burden to her because she loves the two so much.

Jiang Fengmian... i might be spelling his name wrong, so i'll call him Uncle Jiang cuz it will be faster for me to type with no mistakes haha. Anyway, I have complicated feelings about him.

At first i thought he was great and did no wrong, but that was on my first pass and when i had just watched the donghua only. My opinion of him since i read the novel isn't bad, but it's not super good. He's in a complicated position! There's only so much he can do about his wife, they argue super often and while its not usually crazy loud, it's pretty intense. [also, i'm not sure if separation is really a thing that happened back then, i think that's really a modern thing.] I feel like we're likely seeing Uncle Jiang's will to fight dimmed down by the wear of time.

Consider: you have a family member who won't ever listen to what you say, regardless how sound your argument is- you can be completely in the right and have all the facts, but no matter how long you press on, the result never changes. Do you put in the same amount of effort for the rest of your life? No! You understand that no matter how much you argue that their answer will remain the same. I personally have a family member like this, and while i defend myself regularly, it does not go anywhere. That is the nature of some people, no matter what they may not treat your view with the respect it deserves.

anyway back to the main line here, i dont think wwx is wrong about what he said regarding JF to JC. "he's just hard on you cuz you're going to be sect leader" or whatever it was along those lines- WWX does not seem like the type to lie to make someone feel better and i think this is why JC appreciates that conversation so much (besides the heartfelt twin prides which is obviously something that stuck to him for a long time). And i agree, JF is definitely trying to prepare Jiang Cheng for his position as sect leader one day.

do i think Uncle Jiang is completely guilt free of favoritism? No absolutely not, he canonically holds wwx more as a child, which i think is hard to argue against- but i do think the context of that is missed in part by most. WWX may have been a bright kid with sun shining out his ass but he was also a scared kid that just got rescued off the streets after his parents never came home. A kid that was fighting for food from dogs and likely starving and scared because he was on the street for like 5 years [if i remember it was from age 4 to 9 in the novel]. Of course he got held a bit more- i can't imagine he would be completely unphased immediately upon arrival, at least with his Uncle Jiang who was totally willing to provide him comfort- which wwx probably desperately missed from his now dead parents. We know canonically that the memory of those parents, however small, is unreplaceable and dear to wwx- but having JF treat him dearly is truly a balm to what has happened to him.

I'm not gonna say JC didn't go through things that made him cry and want to be held, in fact if WWX came into the house and suddenly got a lot of attention, it's going to feel pretty shitty for JC! Of course this combined with abruptly losing his privacy and puppies was what initially had him pushing the other away, but as you could see, after WY breaks his leg after running off and they make up, they get really close and despite this looming responsibility and family troubles, the two are very bonded. imo making them look like 6 year olds in the donghua is an injustice to their relationship, because 9 year olds tend tend to have more emotional intelligence (?) at that age. I'm not sure how to phrase that, but basically making them look younger and act like giggling children took away from the scene a bit for me lol. Jc is old enough to realize he doesn't dislike wwx! This isn't a child quickly getting over his anger, he's young here yes, but he's decided in this moment that he cares about this new member of the family, despite being called the son of a servant. [which yes madam yu is once again influencing his view of this segregation but i think he is much better at ignoring this particular in his youth]

I am rambling more than i thought i would lmao- i have a lot of feelings about their relationship and i think it's skipped over so much

um, i'm not sure which direction i was going in before i went onto the parents. Let's skip forward.

lotus pier fell and not only did JC see wwx get humiliated and whipped and nearly disfigured, his mother who he was about to lose blamed wwx for so much. When you lose a family member you have an attachment to, whether it bad or good, this influences your thoughts about them and with no way to resolve said thoughts. i find this hard to explain, so i'm just going to hope you understand what i'm referring to here. Especially in ancient china though, i believe it's a big thing to hold such a high regard for your parents, but especially if they have passed? i can't say this is fact but i believe that is the case i just am sticking to my memory here. So these things in combination with Trauma, i believe starts this heavy, negative emotion in JC that is hard to unstick.

JC and WWX may get into a one-sided scuffle but soon after they cry together like children. They just experienced hundreds of lives lost- people they grew up with and trained with and cared for as well as the people who provided and cared for them- their family was unstable, but still was a family and support system- now they had only two people and one of them was far away, the one that was typically their pillar. I feel like a lot of people hold JC to an impossible standard in his situation- having a bad day and taking it out on someone is one thing, going through a traumatic massacre i think allows someone to get a bit unreasonable [though of course nearly choking him was quite far, remember, he's extremely unstable emotionally at this point].

"WWX didn't do that though!" of course not. WWX is a different person with a different personality, is older (though i don't know by how much), and is extremely resilient, but he does process his trauma just differently. As you see over and over in the novel, wwx goes through many things others wouldn't dream of, but he starts acting differently even before the golden core removal, not only after. He's going through the same things, but i'm pretty sure no one reacts to trauma the same way to the T. JC's just happens to be misplaced anger, which is probably way too simple a way to put it, but anyway...wwx also gets angry. very angry. The two both have the correct target of anger in the end, despite Jc's breakdown. He still harbors his mother's words, but at this point they're still in the background of his mind.

Now again we go forward- JC willingly sacrifices himself for WWX. Look, if he doesn't like wwx at all i think this is extremely contradictory. even if he was s*icidal, he could have chose other ways to get to that end if that was the case. and a gentle reminder that JC perks back up and is ready to fight once he believes WWX knows how to fix his core! i don't think he was truly wanting to die or anything like that until he thought he had lost everything except wwx and jyl. He believes in wwx's strength despite his constant fear of inferiority, so if he was gone, what would it matter if wwx was there to continue to protect yanli?

Essentially he was like 'well what are we going to do if i can't lead the sect? We would be in a homeless situation and there is a war.' aka there's not a lot of hope all around, i don't think he was only upset about the core, but it was definitely the main force because if he didn't have a core, how would he survive what was happening anyway? he's like 'if i'm gonna die let it be on my terms' yk? He also doesn't feel like he's strong enough before he lost his core to protect anyone. Without it? fat chance.

whew... this is a lot already, so maybe i'll post this and do a part two later addressing YLLZ arc, then the "present" one. i just have a lot of feelings about their relationship and i'm sad to see so much negativity around him...JC is quite flawed, but a lot of the characters are flawed! that doesn't make them bad characters, it makes them interesting and human.

[the-firebird69]

Bruce Springsteen - Downbound Train (from Born In The U.S.A. Live: Londo...

Trump has to think about it over and over finally the guy of store gets it boy that's weird we live through it we talk about it, we're singing about it. Here's some of my guys and a couple warlock and they're saying this this rocks and the train used to go north north above hopkington almost and they close that line. Are you guys saw it go away but the max see it's still going through George's territory and the computers are still alive and they said wow this blows and thus the max can try and trace it and that's their plan so watch out for crocodile tears.

It's too bad I can say this is going to suck they stood back and said this is going to suck because it's complicated and difficult and here we are is over complicated and difficult and we're in trouble with each other is trying to align us and we just don't seem to get it it says they're very big I know they're very big someone said 45 billion shifts and save 40 billion but it's a fleet that can fight like 45 billion a forg. lagging behind and they need us to launch. They're talking about now for a reason he says it's the chip And to be interstellar they need the laser light computer and they're going to find out that the clan has It it's not letting them use it and we got some very bad news it escapes sometime we think in 2018 and people can't find George and the ship to get behind the diamond of Saturn and it would be all over two hits for all of us and all of the dirt and rock and everything else but it might explode so that might be lighted on fire or it could be JC fighting Mary yes they're still here on Earth

Tommy f

We going to get up there I got to see this I have to see why it matters

Trump

Just trying to get away to get up there to take the ship and try to force himself to do it and get some trouble with the Max and or the computer

Timmy d

Olympus

This is a computer could have done something with the experiment was going and it was time it's a time lock it's on the watch and he moved it and he went to take a watch very alive experiment

Sarah

It says he's not trying to steal a watch or to do the watch he's here and his doing things what he's trying to survive and it felt like that for a while and he's explaining that they're doing it to try and threaten me he said and this movie comes out it's a little late and these guys are running around saying that I'm watching The Max and they suck at it and my husband is not watching them too closely but he's not saying he's watching them but let me think they are so that's right in him they're threatening him not to see what time it is and they do it a whole bunch of times. And my husband says it did not know the magnitude of it they're busy in fighting and fighting other people and being massive assholes and it's a problem too and they are behind on doing everything just like these guys they really don't have to and they are the ones who really need to see the watch and there's another analogy and Dave is trying it to the max my husband's watch Will survive and they won't and what could that mean

Hera

York is sometimes in general statement meant for the United States and that's where the Firebirds landed on the sand and also it might mean that he's intends to use your meters possibly from these ships about us and that our friend here would survive and we would not and it's not really that far-fetched on a statement I hates Joel is using a pretty proficiently you do not have a handle on this guy and these ships are right at the occasion at kju and we know that and close enough and we would have to the ability to do this not true we're just not doing it so this is what they're probably doing it because they have to and they're allergic to it they are alerted to it but in many ways not just what he says it's going on now that we're feeling this dread and we should stop these people they're nuts

Macs

Olympus again

[llycaons]

ep46 (3/3): this is what it's all about. but I talk about surgical policy and jc's innumerable issues for several paragraphs first

this is legit one of the most achingly tender scenes, maybe the moat romantic and beautiful until the very last shot. or even more so. debatable. I really love the last shot. but we're starting with...torture

so in order to wrap my head around the truly absurd prospect of someone being awake for 36 hours straight AWAKE given that the pain and physical stress of surgery would cause way more issues, I'm going to assume that the pain wen ning refers to is only partially physical. the rest is what he describes above - the spiritual pain of tearing out the core and feeling that life and energy drawn out of him until he's empty and cold inside. that makes sense to me. the ramifications of having a blood-and-guts awake operation for that long is dizzying. that is straight up torture

ALSO saying he couldn't have painkillers and had to be awake is such a blatant angst-milking from mxtx. usually the story toes the line just enough for believability but this (and wwx living on the streets as a 4 yr old too, tbh) really stretches the imagination. not that homeless young children don't exist but it seemed like wwx really had NOTHING and he hadn't starved to death or frozen or been mauled despite frequently being attacked by wild dogs so idk it seems like a lot to accept. ANYWAY

god this is so depressing for wwx. so I don't want to critique wen qing because modern medical ethics around surgeries were decades in development and it was kind of an unusual situation, but I really don't think wq should have done the transfer. wwx was a healthy individual with a very high risk of death from this procedure. according to some googling (I know), the highest risk for a non-emergency surgery is an exploratory belly case, with a 47% chance of death.

surgeons can and do refuse to operate if the risk is too high (which is partially about surgeons maintaining their numbers, but still). and jc didn't medically need this surgery, so there was no risk of death on either patient. wwx pestering her to try shouldn't have even mattered...like not to deny his bodily autonomy but that kind of medical decision would never fly today. also jc didn't consent blah blah but actually he did? it wasn't fully informed but he knew he was getting a gc from somewhere. also you could argue he wasn't in his right mind but I'm not the surgery police so whatever.

obviously that's not the point and I'm not castigating wq for doing a favor for someone she felt she owed deeply and probably preventing jc from like killing himself, but I can't help analyzing it from a modern periop perspective bc that's kind of what I'm trained for

god, I kind of wish jc had died though. sure it would have been rough and wwx probably would have been hounded by guilt forever and the jiang clan wouldn't have been restored bc jyl would have never gotten the kind of support she would have needed, but ummm maybe wwx could have married lwj + convinced him to help the wens and jyl could have married jzx and it would all have been fine? no, that's silly. jgy was still out there, and if he'd killed jzx and broken jyl's heart then wwx would never have let the matter go. well it's nice to dream

btw I read a fic once where he died and it was a really boring modern AU. jc is a really great rich character I would miss him I'm just SO sick of him these days. start weeping again IDIOT

*glares at the fanfic that made wwx say he would rather die than be ordinary*

REGRETFUL FLASHBACK TIME!!! strictly speaking lwj didn't NEED this the way jc did because he always changed his ways but he wouldn't be lwj if he didn't take it hard. and he's already been supportive but I can see this making him even more caring and attentive bc jesus christ what a thing to learn

aw yeah the elbow grasp. I love this shot. so many point of contact

wwx bitterly reflecting on what a brat jc's always been - petty, looking to hurt, brash, saying anything as long as it gets a reaction. you'd think he'd grown out of it but wwx seems to be resigned to the fact that he just hasn't grown up at all

...so THERE fanfic author that make him react happily when jc insults him! canonically he dislikes it and is annoyed that jc can't grow the fuck up! it's so annoying when fics make jc the mature one to wwx's silliness bc that's literally the opposite. jc being mean and harsh doesn't mean he's mature and it's really bizarre to see people take him so shallowly. and if reconciliation is to happen jc HAS to get over this he HAS to mature a bit and not act like a bitch when he's mad and take out his rage irrationally on other like that!!! even if he blames wwx for jyl it makes zero sense to blame lwj for his parents he just wants to cling to a justification bc otherwise his life's tragedies have made zero sense. anyway he has issues

awww he was worried about lwj! dw baby I don't think he cares what jc says about him

oh my god it's shijie 😭 the music going I'm going to cry. he sees her in the woods he sees her in the water he loves her so much he misses her she was everything to him love and safety and parent and stability and affection and family and he's never going to stop loving her or missing her is he! I'm miserable

and of course wen ning is like ? and then she vanishes and wwx feels so lonely and empty and sad he just repeats what he used to say to her bc she understood when he needed comfort bc showing love and family through food is such a huge theme in this series

here's what I don't get. why did wwx do this himself and then have lwj scold him?

that isn't very tender lover of you lwj!!! who cares if the lake has an owner, wwx is hungry!!

god wn is so funny here sitting with his lotus seeds <3

what they should have done was have this happen FIRST! lwj sees wwx is hungry and reaches down, breaking the stem and the precepts in one fell swoop! anything for his beloved, who he's just realized has been through even more terrible suffering than he could have imagined! I like to think they get there and he's still not used to this, but come ON writers!

all else being said, it IS a very romantic scene. even if wwx looks flabbergasted like that. like, touched, but also very confused

and HE LOOKS TO WN FOR CONFIRMATION I love that moment and wn is like nodding like yeah young master wei! it's okay! he loves you! yeah it is a surprise he did that isn't it! but it's okay! let's eat some lotus seeds! what a sweetheart

nice shot of wwx looking happy for once in this goddamn episode. happy ending to this awkward yet very sweet impromptu comfort food-stealing boat ride

omg I forgot that it's from the jin clan. fics will have the lans use these ALL the time.

and this is so funny too he gets so excited the boat rocks and lwj has to steady him

I always loved this opening shot for yunping! so so colorful

I had to delete some other shots bc I love this so much. excited about being remembered like this

and then so happy!! this is one if his most enamored looks. sappiest. most in love, even

personal highlights: this is such a delicious episode. SO satisfying

all of wwx's longing looks staring at the ancestral shrine. gutting

wwx sideways acknowledging just how much myu punished him

jc really pressed all of my buttons but in ways that made the response from lwj and wn really satisfying, so I guess he was a team player for that one

that one shot where jc looks just like his mom? their mannerisms are SO similar

wwx stopping lwj with a hand an inch from his pelvis region. awkward and yet very intimate

lwj pushing jc away from wwx very roughly and then so so tenderly bringing wwx to safety

wen ning's passion + excellent memory

jc sobbing. YESSS CRY

"let's quickly take young master wei away from here'

my epiphany that wwx's surgical pain is partially spiritual. it's still pain but do not take this away from me I can't understand it otherwise

elbow grasp 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰

wwx complaining about what a terrible personality jc has always had

'I'm hungry' 🥺 and after an awkward stumble lwj came through!!! yess that's what wwx needs

wwx's adoring and pleased little smile at the very end. he's in loovveee

[fincalinde]

@thatswhatsushesaid Yeah you timed that ask really well, because I was already in NMJ mode! No promises that any other asks get a 2k word response within 24 hours though.

As for the rest of your tags, it’s so funny you’d raise the topic of WWX because I absolutely knew he had to be in there as an example of NMJ’s hypocrisy. I hunted HIGH AND LOW for direct textual evidence of NMJ disapproving of WWX’s demonic cultivation and I could not find it. If you have anything I will be seriously grateful, because I could have sworn there was at least one line that referenced NMJ’s disapproval in specific. It doesn’t really matter if there’s a direct quote or not since we can easily infer his opinion, but I did feel like the person searching for the glasses that are already on their face.

During my ‘wait, we can infer NMJ disapproves of demonic cultivation but the direct quote seems to have slipped down the back of the sofa’ journey it honestly slipped my mind to dig deeper into the hypocrisy of sabre cultivation vs. demonic cultivation. It is absolutely hypocritical that he disapproves despite doing literally the same thing but with animals, but I think my personal ranking does place his willingness to be on the same side as WWX (while not trying to randomly murder him for bad behaviour—I guess JC’s authority over WWX is more important than the authority JGS has over JGY, despite the fact that JC has so little control over WWX they have to engineer a fake breakup) as higher on the hypocrisy scale than his attitude to demonic cultivation generally.

Firstly, I do see a distinction in principle between cultivating the resentful energy of beasts rather than human beings. It’s not a nice thing to do either way, but if we’re splitting hairs I think we can agree there’s a difference between animals and people. I know it’s much more sad if Mittens has her resentment about never being fed ever in her life cultivated, compared to corpse puppeting Sociopath-gongzi who beats his wife and starves his children. But as a general rule, we do treat animals differently to people and I don’t want to stray into false equivalence. NMJ is a hypocrite about it but there’s still some nuance involved.

(As an aside, the problem of ever-increasing numbers of enraged bloodthirsty entombed sabres is a big one, but I’ve always found it a funny image. Anyway it’s of course hypocritical to have the dangerous byproducts of your cultivation stashed away like that, but it’s also a straightforward example of the consequences of dabbling in resentful energy from any source, so it’s hardly unique on a thematic level. It doesn’t say anything new about NMJ’s hypocrisy; just ties in neatly with my points about the fact that he never for a moment wonders whether he’s doing the right thing. The point is not that he should conclude yes, on balance he’s doing the right thing, or no, on balance he’s doing the wrong thing. The point is just that it never occurs to him to ask the question at all. Speaks volumes.)

Secondly, in light of the above, that’s why I focused on his willingness to work with WWX. This hypocrisy has layers! The first layer is disapproving of demonic cultivation when he engages in similar practices, but the second, deeper layer is being willing to tolerate it when it serves his own ends. As long as he doesn’t have to get his own hands dirty and can pretend he’s therefore not complicit, that is. And that is an attitude he shares with basically the entire jianghu, to be fair—but to be fairer, NMJ positions himself as better than the rest of the jianghu, as a moral authority, so there’s the hypocrisy again.

And the third layer, the heart of this particular onion, is the fact that NMJ is perfectly willing to join the rest of the Jianghu in condemning WWX. It’s hypocritical to turn on someone who’s been such an asset, to be sure, although at this point WWX is the victim of propaganda and his own foolish arrogance. But the real point is this: NMJ doesn’t question himself and his own conduct during the war in light of WWX’s supposed evil and dangerous behaviour. If everything about WWX is true, why isn’t NMJ pondering whether he himself is complicit because he allied with WWX during the war? (The answer is situational ethics, a thing NMJ claims not to believe in.)

This sort of thing is why I give short shrift to NMJ’s moments of empathy (ha). They’re essential to his character and vital to include when writing him, but they’re moments. He momentarily feels bad for JGY, momentarily remembers what he owes JGY. But it never sticks—he always returns to judgement and violence. There’s no self-reflection at all, and therefore no hope of identifying his own hypocrisy, never mind addressing it.

you’ve mentioned a few times in your meta that you view nmj as being hypocritical, and i’m inclined to agree with you! would you share some specific quotes from the text that you feel especially support this reading of his character? 👀

It is one of my favourite words to apply to him, isn’t it! I think that’s because a) it’s true, and b) NMJ’s reputation for righteousness (and his belief in his own righteousness) grant an in-universe illusion of consistency that often bleeds through to external readings of him. So I press the point, because it’s fundamental to his character and I usually see it elided or reduced to all-bark-and-no-bite-grumpy-bear-with-a-heart-of-gold fanon NMJ.

And oh yes, there’s an absolute wealth of quotes supporting this. As always, I use the EXR fan translation because I’m old school.

Christ, this got long. Click for more.

It’s all relative, man

First we need to establish what NMJ’s principles supposedly are.

[Nie Huaisang’s] brother, Nie Mingjue, was extremely resolute when carrying out orders, quite renowned in the cultivation world. […] Nie Mingjue had always taught his younger brother with extreme harshness, particularly caring for his studies. (Chapter 13)

[…] he took over the Nie Sect before he even reached twenty, doing everything in a direct, forceful fashion. (Chapter 21)

When he lived, Nie Mingjue was often exasperated by the fact that his brother didn’t meet expectations, so he disciplined him strictly. (Chapter 21)

In spite of Nie Mingjue being a junior to Jin Guangshan, he conducted himself in a strict manner and refused to tolerate Xue Yang no matter what. (Chapter 30)

Without any hesitation, Nie Mingjue scolded, “Drinking the water he brought you while speaking such spiteful words! Did you join my forces not to kill the Wen-dogs but to make idle talk?!” (Chapter 48)

“A proper man should carry himself with proud righteousness. There’s no need to care for the talk of those idlers.” (Chapter 48)

As we can see, NMJ is all about righteousness, but we don’t get too many details confirming what that righteousness entails. We’re expected to make assumptions based on context: that his values are in line with the ideal values of his society, and that he’s living his life according to those principles (and enforcing said principles on others).

This is worth keeping in mind. We know NMJ is ‘righteous’. We know, in a general sense, what societal standards for morality are in this setting and we see the tension between society’s theoretical standards, its actual standards, and the moral frameworks of characters such as WWX and LXC. And there’s tension between those standards and NMJ’s moral framework, too. But though WWX attempts (and fails) to opt out and LXC attempts (and fails) to find a better way through open conversation and consideration of context, their failures are not due to hypocrisy but instead larger forces at play. In other words, they go up against society and society wins.

NMJ has a problem with society too, but for him the problem is not with its rules and assumptions—it’s with the individuals who make it up. He has no problem with the system. To NMJ, the system is a good thing. If only the people in it would rigidly conform to the rules, everything would be fine. And an outlook like that can only ever lead to hypocrisy, not just because human beings and their actions don’t fit into rigid categories, but because by not attempting to navigate the system (LXC, JGY, JC) or even attempting to opt out (WWX, LWJ, XY), NMJ positions himself above society, as a moral arbiter.

This is why he feels entitled to upbraid JGS, who is a generation above him. It’s why he feels entitled to harass and attempt to murder JGY for not being loyal to NMJ over and above his filial duty to his father. These actions are after he’s reached the point of no return with the sabre spirit, yes, but they didn’t come out of nowhere. It’s just the nadir of a path he’s been on presumably his entire life.

All the information is on the task

NMJ is very good at bending his supposedly rigid principles when it’s convenient for him, while not offering any grace or understanding to others who do the same. And ‘others’, let’s be real, usually equates to JGY. The horror vortex of NMJ’s obsession with controlling JGY really cannot be escaped.

Let’s start with the biggie. JGY is naturally the one who calls NMJ out, because he’s the only one who can see the emperor has no clothes, and by clothes I mean leg to stand on.

“But, Brother, I have always wanted to ask you something—the lives under your hands are in any regard more than those under mine, so why is it that I only killed a few cultivators out of desperation and you keep on bringing it up, even until now?” (Chapter 48)

“Are you saying that all of the people you killed deserved their deaths? […] Then, may I ask, just how do you decide if someone deserves death? Are your standards absolutely correct? If I kill one but save hundreds, would the good outweigh the bad, or would I still deserve death? To do great things, sacrifices must happen.” (Chapter 48)

Chifeng-zun, my man, he has nailed you. The point is not to start drawing equivalences in quite the way JGY is doing—I would certainly argue that if you’re killing undeserving people for the greater good you’d better have one hell of a greater good to be aiming for, even in the crapsack world of MDZS. JGY’s argument is partly a numbers game, but I want to set that aside, because it’s a distraction from his core point, to which numbers are irrelevant: can NMJ truly justify every single murder he has ever committed? Because if he can’t, he’s condemned by his own supposed standards. Note JGY’s use of the word ‘absolute’. NMJ is a moral absolutist! Is he absolutely sure? And if he is sure, does it matter that he’s sure? Why is his certainty more important than anyone else’s?

NMJ never once grapples with these questions. If he did, he might be able to pull the teeth of his own hypocrisy by acknowledging it and engaging with it. But of course he’s not capable of that, certainly not by the time of this scene.

And speaking of NMJ’s hypocrisy re: who does and doesn’t deserve to die…

“Very well! I’ll kill myself after I kill you!” (Chapter 49)

But Roquen, you cry! NMJ says such an utterly mad thing because he’s battered and beaten and not thinking clearly, not to mention past the point of no return with the sabre spirit as he’s been cultivating with resentful energy intensely throughout the war! That’s why he walks it back after LXC intervenes!

To which I say: it is almost as though context matters!

And yes, I’m aware of the context. I’m aware that just before this bit of dialogue the narrative claims JGY pointing out ‘if I hadn’t killed them you’d be dead’ is a subtle way of saying ‘you can’t kill me because you owe me your life’ as though that’s purely manipulative rather than being, you know, true. ‘Even if you refuse to accept I acted for the best, please don’t kill me and I’m going to subtly remind you that you owe me to maximise my chances of getting you to not kill me (after I just risked my life to save yours when it would have been 100x better for me personally if you died)’ is hardly an outrageous position.

It’s interesting, though, isn’t it, that NMJ never again mentions taking his own life as a matter of principle, despite the fact that he subsequently attempts to murder JGY again for the apparently unforgivable crime of … not being able to overrule his abusive father about XY, and then having the temerity to complain to LXC about NMJ’s attempt to murder him.

Obviously the Jin are a huge threat after the war, but these are all pretty feeble reasons for piling on JGY. Sure, maybe JGY would also have tried to protect XY if JGS weren’t around, but the fact is that JGS is around and he’s calling the shots. Besides, once JGS is out of the picture JGY has no issue disposing of XY (with Dr Evil levels of ineptness, apparently), so that’s a fairly decent indicator he’s not ride or die. As for the fact that JGY is making nice to NMJ’s face but complaining behind his back, well. Regardless of any genuine desire to vent to his only friend, I have no doubt he was indeed trying to drive a wedge between NMJ and LXC as a strategic move. But is it wrong of him to do so, considering NMJ is a genuine and present threat to his life and LXC is just not getting it? And does any of the above, including his struggle to maintain his position and all the other work he does for his father mean he deserves death—immediate, extrajudicial and violent death?

Let me put it this way. NMJ is making JGY responsible for his father’s actions and his father’s orders—the question of whether JGY is on board with his father’s instructions is academic, because he has no choice in the matter. JGY cannot opt out of his situation. The only opt out is death, and that is not a meaningful choice because no one else is getting vilified for having the audacity to fight for their place in their world rather than lie down and die. And even if JGY really were a cackling supervillain 100% on board with his father’s diabolical plans, NMJ’s focus on him to the exclusion of JGS is driven by emotion and not by a rational evaluation of the morality and logistics of the situation.

And when he’s insisting that JGY deserves death (and trying to mete it out to him) NMJ never again considers for a moment whether, if JGY really deserves to die, then maybe he does too.

As a third example, to make it a hat trick, we have this:

However, Jin Guangyao wasn’t his subordinate anymore. Only after they became sworn brothers would he have the status and the position to urge Jin Guangyao, like how he disciplined his younger brother, Nie Huaisang. (Chapter 49)

“Brother, it really was my father’s orders. I couldn’t refuse. Now. if you want me to take care of Xue Yang, what would I say to him?” (Chapter 49)

NMJ is perfectly aware that according to the rules of their society and the moral framework he himself subscribes to, JGY’s highest authority is his father. But NMJ can’t accept that. He thinks he should be the ultimate authority over JGY, and though he couches it in moral terms about wanting JGY to follow the correct path, what he really means is what he himself considers to be the correct path. As always, he doesn’t listen to JGY’s perfectly valid points about how it’s not possible for him to do the ‘right’ thing as he just doesn’t have that kind of authority and will only end up making his own life worse. I don’t have a quote demonstrating this, but considering everything we know about NMJ, I think we can infer he would not take kindly to JGY ordering NHS to do something futile and self-destructive in the name of the correct path, purely on the grounds that JGY is now his elder brother.

I’ll acknowledge again that JGY is absolutely an accomplice in his father’s schemes, and the originator of a fair few of them since he’s politically gifted. But it’s just not possible to untangle JGY’s complicity from his need (and his right!) to survive. NMJ is correct to be concerned about JGY as a risk, because he’s a huge asset to JGS. But once again, making JGY a target is not the moral or even the sensible thing to do. We know JGY enjoys aspects of what his father asks him to do. We also know that once his father is out of the picture he gets rid of XY, purges the Jin of corruption and pushes through the watchtower project. When he has agency as a clan leader he doesn’t follow his father’s political agenda to the letter, to say the least! So there is certainly a large dollop of truth in his claims that he has no choice and he’s unhappy and vulnerable.

And then a bonus, something not linked to JGY to demonstrate that NMJ’s hypocrisy extends beyond his personal vendetta.

Nie Mingjue spoke coldly. “If she responded with only silence and not opposition when the Wen Sect was causing mayhem, it’s the same as indifference. She shouldn’t have been so disillusioned as to hope that she could be treated with respect when the Wen Sect was doing evil and be unwilling to suffer the consequences and pay the price when the Wen Sect was wiped out.” (Chapter 73)

Charming. Funny how NMJ says this after spending the war fighting on the same side as the guy who invented demonic cultivation and controls an army of desecrated corpses, violating every possible social and cultural principle they have. But the Sunshot Campaign would have failed without WWX’s contributions, so I suppose NMJ thought that compromise was acceptable. It’s all right for him to stay silent and not oppose WWX, since WWX has been useful to his own agenda. What’s not acceptable is staying silent when the consequence is your own violent death and literally no good whatsoever being achieved thereby.

Aside from being a hypocrite, NMJ is also pathologically incapable of self-reflection.

Finish him!

At the end of the day, NMJ’s principles are inherently contradictory because he’s living in morally relative world where the narrative expects us to take context into account and root for a protagonist who brutally tortures his enemies to death and a romantic lead who find+replaces his ethical framework with ‘Wei Ying’.

It is simply not possible for NMJ to be both righteous and rigid, so when he chooses to be rigid he foregoes being righteous. Even in his moments of flexibility, he continues to apply harsh standards to others that he refuses to apply to himself. That’s what makes him a hypocrite. He isn’t a bastion of absolute morality in a sea of corruption. He’s in denial about the nuanced reality he’s living in, and placing himself on high as a moral authority with no actual mandate. Hypocrisy inevitably results, and the consequences are hugely damaging to everyone around him.

[grewlikefancyflowers]

‘Intrusion’ extra, what it says about Jiang Cheng’s role in MDZS, and how Wei Wuxian looks back on his past with the Jiangs

I said back in like June that I’d write meta on this and then put it off for a few months, oops! Here we are, finally!

First things first, both the ‘Intrusion’ and ‘Iron Hook’ extras are not just silly romps featuring married wangxian and fanservice, as some people seem to believe?? I’d say both of them clear up pretty neatly, for those that are still confused, points of contention in the fandom - such as Wei Wuxian’s heroism, and Jiang Cheng’s role as an antagonist. Specifically, if his actions were justified or sympathetic, and if he was punished unfairly by the narrative.

The first and most obvious statement made in ‘Intrusion’ is the parallel between the story of Young Master Qin (YMQ), and JC and WWX’s youths. I’ll summarise quickly the relationship between YMQ and the fierce corpse that has been bothering him.

They grew up together in YMQ’s grandmother’s house, since they were a similar age they played together

The fierce corpse (FC) was a servant in YMQ’s grandmother’s household

The grandmother took a liking to FC, and he was in some ways treated less like a servant, and more like a member of their clan, and was allowed to attend school with the other boys

YMQ specifically notes that his grandmother used to praise FC a lot

YMQ describes a story at the school in which someone answered a question, and FC incorrectly claimed he answered wrongly. When FC pushed the matter, the other students became annoyed and drove him out of the class

It is very heavily implied (to the point where ‘implied’ isn’t really the right word) that ‘someone’ was YMQ, that he had actually answered the question wrongly, and that he felt shown up by someone he felt should be below him proving so, and that he led the other boys in driving FC away

FC left the school and didn’t attend again

I probably don’t need to lay out where the similarities are…?

In response to YMQ’s story, Wei Wuxian (rhetorically) says this - ‘“Regarding the solution to that problem, in the end, who was right and who was wrong?”’

Aside from just exposing the kind of person YMQ is, in reference to a story wherein ‘FC’ is clearly a stand in for WWX, and YMQ for JC, MXTX’s decision to highlight specifically that it was FC that had the right solution to the problem is not insignificant. Nor how she specifies that he was the instigator of FC’s expulsion, while hiding behind the mob mentality of the other students.

Another interesting detail is that YMQ deliberately obscures the truth throughout the chapter, because despite his refusal to acknowledge it, possibly even to himself, he knows that between him and FC he is the one in the wrong. Similarly, JC obscures the truth about WWX, to the wider cultivation world during the period of WWX’s ‘downfall,’ (Ch.73) but also, more importantly, to JL after WWX’s death. JL believes that WWX ordered WN to kill both JZX and JYL (Ch.42). Of course, if JC did not have a guilty conscience, he would not feel it necessary to lie about these things. Or rather, convince himself that they are true, as he still blames WWX for the deaths of his parents’ and JYL and the end of the story (Ch.102).

YMQ’s attitude about servants is bad enough that it upsets Sizhui quite a lot, and shortly after their interaction with him, we have this exchange between LSZ and Wangxian.

‘Lan SiZhui thought about it, “I do not know either.” He responded with honesty, “He never did anything truly evil, but perhaps I find it difficult to deal with people of such character. I do not particularly like the tone with which he mentioned the word ‘servant’…”

He paused at this point. Wei WuXian was oblivious to it, “Typical, typical. Most of the people in this world looks down upon servants. Servants sometimes even look down upon themselves… Why are you two looking at me like that?”

Halfway through, he interrupted, not knowing whether to laugh or frown, “Stop—is there a misunderstanding here? How could I compare? Lotus Pier isn’t the usual household, after all. I’ve beaten Jiang Cheng up way more times than he’s ever beaten me!”

Lan WangJi didn’t say anything, but instead gave him a silent hug. Wei WuXian couldn’t help but smiled. He hugged back, stroking Lan WangJi’s back a couple of times. Lan SiZhui coughed. Seeing how confident Wei WuXian looked, not at all sensitive to the word ‘servant’, he was finally at ease.’

There’s a lot going on here...

Firstly, WWX definitely does not think badly of himself because his father was a servant, because WWX doesn’t think badly of servants. It is also true that Lotus Pier wasn’t so strict with hierarchy as other sects (Ch.51, Ch.71), and that WWX and JC sometimes playfully fought on equal terms in their youths. But WWX was also very clearly treated badly in the Jiang household due to his status, notably by YZY (Ch.51, Ch.56, Ch.57, Lotus Seed Pod extra), JC does also repeatedly enact real physical violence against WWX, that he simply brushes off (Ch.56, Ch.59). You could argue that the example from Ch.59 is under extenuating circumstances and therefore should not count, but the same excuse cannot apply to Ch.56.

Knowing this, Lan Wangji’s response to this, to hug WWX, does not feel casual at all. Instead it comes across as if he is offering comfort, which WWX accepts.

Finally, this exchange finishes with ‘Seeing how confident Wei WuXian looked, not at all sensitive to the word ‘servant’, he [LSZ] was finally at ease.’ To me, this seems to suggest that the entire purpose of this was not at all reader directed exposition about how good and equal the Jiang household was, but rather a WWX-typical veneer meant to appease LSZ’s concerns (taking a moment to quietly fangirl about how good MXTX is at ‘show, don’t tell’). Also suggests that WWX is aware on some level that he was treated badly, and LWJ is too - presumably, it is something that they have spoken about.

Continuing with the story of YMQ and FC…

YMQ returns to his home village as an adult wearing a jade pendant that belonged to his now deceased grandmother

FC asks to borrow it, YMQ allows it, thinking FC is missing his grandmother

FC returns telling him he has lost the pendant, YMQ thinks he has actually sold it, and has him beaten, it is very heavily implied that he breaks his leg

In the present, YMQ admits that he doesn’t actually think FC would have gone so far as to sell something of his grandmother’s

This is reflective of JC’s attitude towards WWX throughout his life, with regards to how he frequently comes to the worst conclusions about him, without having any real evidence, and lashes out at him for it. I spoke about this a bit before here. Most notable example is probably during their conversation in the demon-slaughtering cave wherein they discuss WWX’s defection, and JC decides that WWX is acting carelessly and playing the hero, though admits himself that WWX is following the Jiang Sect’s teachings, then declares WWX an enemy of the cultivation world behind his back.

The ambiguity of FC’s death, and YMQ’s role in it discussed in part 3 of the extra is referencing WWX’s own death, and JC’s role in it. In the end the conclusion is that whether or not YMQ was responsible, FC did not hold him to it.

In the end, FC is content to simply throw some fruit, and punch YMQ in the face in vengeance for his death, and even goes out of his way to avoid hurting LSZ when he is fighting him. He returns the jade pendant, that he really did lose and not steal, and goes back to resting peacefully.

WWX, LWJ, and LSZ’s views on YMQ’s fate are as follows

‘Lan WangJi gently tugged Lil’ Apple’s rein, his voice calm, “He was fortunate.”

Wei WuXian agreed, “Indeed. Young Master Qin has got quite the luck.”

After some time, Lan SiZhui finally couldn’t hold his words back any longer. Sincerely, he spoke, “But I still feel that only one punch might be a bit insufficient…”’

JC didn’t even get a punch to the face. I’d say he got off very lightly indeed.

[lansplaining]

I feel that most people, that includes jc antis and stans btw, kind of forget that wwx is also just a teenager when lotus pier falls, he is but a few days older than jc. A lot of decisions taken by war inflicted teenagers, specially someone who has lost his home twice, do not make sense and have to be taken critically taking into account their mental status. Both jc and wwx at this point are suffering. What happens later, when they are old enough and mature enough is a different matter altogether.

Do we actually know the precise age difference between Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian? I know we know their birthdays, but for myself, I'd always imagined there was a year between them. I know that's not your point, I just always mean to check and forget.

Anyway... yeah! Every character in MDZS acts in sub-optimal ways, driven by pain, strong emotion, and their often incorrect assessment of what will prove most helpful for the person or situation at hand. That's what makes it good writing, a good story, and creates the kinds of characters that we all sit around on the internet obsessing over.

I'm assuming from the tone at the end of your comment (and apologies if I'm misreading, tone online is a nightmare) that what you mean to suggest is, 'Wei Wuxian's behavior post-Sunshot was excusable and Jiang Cheng's in the present-day timeline is not.'

I'd say first of all that of course Wei Wuxian's behavior, taking into account his mental state post-war as you say, is completely understandable. That does not, however, change the fact that he really hurt people who loved him while spiraling in this completely understandable way. From the POV of Jiang Cheng, who lacks key information and also has been through a lot of loss and trauma, your brother and best friend has suddenly decided to drink all day and fuck around with ghost floozies (give or take a ghost floozie depending on your canon) instead of helping you rebuild your shared home like he promised to. He will offer no explanation for this, and every time you try (in your admittedly clumsy way) to broach the question of whether he is hurt or suffering (or send your sister and her soup to do it), he brushes you off and insists that nothing is wrong, he's perfectly aware of how he's acting, and he's doing it on purpose. That is hurtful! Wei Wuxian intended it to be, because he needed Jiang Cheng to back off and not notice things that would become very noticeable if Jiang Cheng spent any serious amount of time with him! It also makes perfect sense and I don't think it makes Wei Wuxian a bad person.

Should Jiang Cheng have pushed harder, or tried different tactics? Sure, but a) I'm not sure that anything would have worked, and b) he is also a traumatized teenager, not a therapist or even a parent, so once again, we can understand why he didn't handle the situation in an ideal manner.

So, now it's 13/16/18?/time is fake years later, and Jiang Cheng is old enough and mature enough to know better. Here are the events that have taken place as far as Jiang Cheng is aware: - the aforementioned drinking, slacking, and maybe ghost floozies - Wei Wuxian killed a ton of Jin cultivators (bad) but then sat tight in the Burial Mounds not bothering anyone for ~1/2/time is fake years (good!) - the literal second Wei Wuxian was painstakingly invited to leave the Burial Mounds to temporarily rejoin society, he was so provoked by a random Jin cousin that he murdered a ton of Jin cultivators again, and most importantly, murdered his brother-in-law who very much did not mean him any harm - then, with variations for the canon in question, killed dozens if not hundreds more cultivators and in the process witnessed Yanli's death at the hands of someone who actually wanted revenge on Wei Wuxian

Which part of this should he know better about? What information has he gained in the intervening years that would cause him to re-evaluate? Sure, in a perfect world, we mature into wisdom and perfect serenity and grace, letting go of our resentment, grudges, and grief, especially towards the (maybe) dead. Perfect-world Jiang Cheng would maybe say, 'It's really sad that my bright, brilliant brother inexplicably delved into demonic cultivation and lost control of it in such a catastrophically destructive way, but I will choose to remember him as he was, and forgive him for both directly and indirectly orphaning my nephew and leaving me alone in the world. I'll never know why the hell he did it, so I'll just have to let it go.'

But as you said, when you are dealing with someone who-- for example-- has now been through essentially two wars in as many years (one of them against his brother), lost his entire family, and is left to raise his orphaned nephew-- you have to take into account his mental status. His maturity, like Lan Wangji's, is built on a foundation of trauma and grief, and there are going to be some cracks there.

[robininthelabyrinth]

Prompt: what if jc was lxc's age (and jyl maybe 2 or 3 years older) and wwx was lwj's/nhs' age when he was brought to lotus pier? (Or anything that involves a much bigger age gap bw the jiang sibs and wwx - where wwx is babey)

Untamed

“You know what,” Jiang Cheng said to his sister, who looked at him. “I’ve changed my mind. I’m not marrying a woman.”

Jiang Yanli’s lips started twitching uncontrollably and she hid her smile behind her sleeve. “Oh?”

“Nope. I’m going to marry Chifeng-zun.”

“On the basis of…?”

“If you take two adult men in charge of two Great Sects,” Jiang Cheng said, doing his utmost best to keep a straight face, “with all the power we can generate between us, we might – maybe – have a chance at disciplining our baby brothers.”

Jiang Yanli burst out laughing.

“There, there. It’s all right,” he said, grinning, reaching out to pat her on the shoulder. “You can join us if you’d like. There’s enough room in Qinghe for two wives.”

“We are not both running away to Qinghe,” she said, giggling. “A-Cheng!”

“What? I think it’s a great idea. If our parents want us back, they can negotiate with Chifeng-zun for it – may they have more luck than they had with the whole medicinal herb debacle.”

“A-Cheng, I am officially tabling this idea,” Jiang Yanli said, still snorting. “Older sibling privilege.”

“I let you out of the womb first as a matter of courtesy,” Jiang Cheng sniffed. “And now you use it against me? A-Li, how could you?”

“Call me jiejie! It doesn’t matter how much older, a few shichen or a few years, older is still older.”

“You probably elbowed me with those sharp pointy things you have on your arms. Weapons of war.”

“Older is older!” she sang. “Now tell me, what did A-Xian do this time?”

“Would you like it in chronological order, or in order of severity? I can also group it by theme, if you prefer.”

“Oh no,” Jiang Yanli said, covering her eyes. “Oh no.”

“And the chief-most theme,” Jiang Cheng said, continuing anyway, “is still called Lan Wangji.”

“Oh no!”

“He has the worst crush,” Jiang Cheng said, shaking his head with endless amusement. “And he just – refuses to admit it. ‘Nooooo, shixiong, we’re just friends, he can’t even stand me most of the time, he’s always trying to get me in trouble, but sometimes he lets me sit next to him and spend time with him and he’s so handsome and I really just want to make him laugh –’”

“We have,” Jiang Yanli said thoughtfully, “raised an idiot.”

“He was fine when we got him,” Jiang Cheng disagreed. “We have spoiled an idiot.”

“This is true. Maybe we should go form a mutual complaining society with Chifeng-zun; isn’t his little brother also an idiot?”

“Oh, you have no idea,” Jiang Cheng said. “Worse: they’ve teamed up. Nie Huaisang buys Wei Wuxian porn now.”

“Oh no…”

“In return for help cheating on his tests!”

“Oh no!”

“So that’s why I’m going to marry Chifeng-zun,” Jiang Cheng concluded. “Our parents may be disappointed by my decision, but with our powers combined, we might be able to save the world from our respective younger idiots.”

“Maybe,” she said, and shook her head. “A-Cheng – about our parents…”

Jiang Cheng shook his head as well, echoing her action but more in denial. It wasn’t anyone’s fault that she took after their father and he took after their mother, that she was born a shichen prior to midnight and he a shichen after and their personalities completely different as a result; it was no one’s fault that their parents didn’t get along, with their mother disdaining what she perceived as Jiang Yanli’s passiveness and lack of passion and their father despising Jiang Cheng’ prickly temper and difficulty communicating his affection without scolding.

It certainly wasn’t Wei Wuxian’s fault for being younger and more brilliant, talented at everything he did and with just the sort of personality their father liked best – the combination of his former best friend and the girl he’d once thought of marrying – and that he’d always made that preference very clear to everyone, even to their mother who often worried that her husband would dispossess her children in favor of his foundling and who lashed out at everyone in response.

That had hurt – hurt a lot, even, and Jiang Cheng was soft and sensitive underneath all his defensive layers, but any time he got angry over it he would look at Wei Wuxian, their little A-Xian, baby Xianxian, who adored his older siblings more than anything and was adored in return, and he forced himself to get over it. He was old enough, by the time Wei Wuxian arrived, to know to whom the blame really belonged.

“I spoke with Nie Huaisang while I was at the Cloud Recesses,” Jiang Cheng said in an undertone, one reserved just for his sister. “He’s asked me to pass along a message to his brother, the next time I go night-hunting, about the whole debacle – he’s so terribly apologetic, you understand, he couldn’t wait for the post – if we get to Qinghe by tomorrow, Chifeng-zun will be able to get to Gusu in time to intervene before our father does something wretched like cancel your engagement and take A-Xian home early from his studies.”

“The engagement I wouldn’t mind,” she remarked. “If Jin Zixuan feels so strongly about it that he’d get into a fistfight with A-Xian, it’s better not to marry, no matter what our mother might think. But on no account is A-Xian to be sent home early! He needs his education!”

Unsaid was everything else he needed, things he could get better at the Cloud Recesses than anywhere else.

“Then we go?”

“We go,” she agreed. Between the two of them, Jiang Cheng had more talent at cultivation, but she was steadier, even in her overall mediocrity: when the two of them flew on a sword together, they could make it much further and faster than anyone expected.

Qinghe wasn’t really close enough for a quick jaunt – they flew all night without stopping – but Chifeng-zun was amendable to their scheme, jumping at once onto his saber and making his way straight to Gusu. A waste of spiritual energy all around, really, but far faster than their father would move, with his Sect Leader’s dignity and retinue, rushing to the Cloud Recesses to save his precious little Wei Wuxian from having any connections in life that weren’t to the Jiang sect, and the Jiang sect alone. 

And never mind how much he needed those connections: needed to have friends his own age, needed to have more time with that crush of his, needed independence and freedom and everything the Jiang sect supposedly stood for - needed for them to support him and act as the foundation beneath his feet, rather than the chains tying him down to earth.

Chifeng-zun – who was only a few years older than they were – was really a very understanding person, getting the problem at once and immediately agreeing with their view on things. Perhaps there really was something to be said about the difference in generations…

“Let me show you to rooms where you can rest,” Chifeng-zun’s aide said, a slender young man with a polite smile on his face as he saluted. “I’ll arrange for refreshments as well.”

“We hate to trouble you, but in all honesty you are a lifesaver,” Jiang Yanli said to him warmly, and he unexpectedly flushed red at the cheeks. “A-Cheng, let’s follow this handsome young man and rest a while before we return to the Lotus Pier.”

The young man was blushing.

“What’s your name?” Jiang Cheng asked, and the blush faded away at once as the man paled a little: it would be one he expected them to recognize, then, and not in a good way.

“This one is Meng Yao,” he said, and saluted again even though he’d already saluted once before, and Jiang Yanli’s eyes flickered to Jiang Cheng’s very briefly before she caught his arms and raised him up.

“I’ve heard of you. Smart and talented enough to get Chifeng-zun’s attention, even so far as becoming his personal deputy - you must be brilliant. Truly, you deserve a better father,” she told him, and he stared up at her, dumbstruck.

“Don’t mind her,” Jiang Cheng said. “She’s trying out this new thing in which she says everything she feels without thinking first.”

She elbowed him. “And isn’t it your fault?” she asked snappishly. “You’re the one who needs to speak your mind more; I’m just modeling good behavior!”

If she’d been older than him – really older, rather than just a few shichen – maybe she would have held her tongue more and played the role of the peacekeeper, trying to protect him from his father’s indifference the way she had tried to when they were both younger, just as he had tried to distract his mother from her with his hard-fought accomplishments. It wasn’t until they had little Wei Wuxian to spoil and care for, a joint task that required both of their attention, that they realized that splitting their forces like that was pointless and self-defeating: it wasn’t actually helping that Jiang Yanli suppressed so much of her spirit until she felt like little more than a reflective mirror with no content, nor that Jiang Cheng nearly worked himself to death trying to prove that he was worthy of his father’s love and respect that he would never receive, and it never would.

So they stopped.

They were trying very hard to stop, anyway.

“You’re very kind,” Meng Yao murmured, and led them to their rooms.

The moment he closed the door behind him, Jiang Yanli turned to Jiang Cheng and said, “I’ve changed my mind about your plan – we can run away to Qinghe. You marry Chifeng-zun, and I’ll marry that charming boy out there.”

There was an audible thudding sound from the corridor outside, as if someone had accidentally walked into a wall, and they both grinned at each other.

“Mother would kill you,” he warned her in an undertone.

“And being married to someone who disdains me enough to fight over my worthlessness in public wouldn’t?” she retorted, smiling even though her expression was tinged with pain: if she had one ambition in life, it was to never become their mother. “The marriage agreement might have been forged by our mothers, but the text of it says ‘the Jin sect leader’s son to the Jiang sect leader’s daughter’. Why can’t I marry him?”

“He hasn’t been acknowledged.”

“Only technically. Everyone knows he’s the real deal, or else his father wouldn’t have made such a fuss about it.”

“But –”

“Anyway, he must be a good man, or Chifeng-zun wouldn’t have promoted him.”

“I don’t know about that,” Jiang Cheng said. “Chifeng-zun doesn’t have the sense of self-preservation the heavens bestowed on a lemming.”

There was a vaguely audible snort from outside their door. It seemed Meng Yao, at least, had the good sense not to leave guests in his house unattended, and no discrimination against the very useful business of listening at doors.

He also had a sense of humor, which was good given Jiang Yanli’s newfound ambitions in his regard.

“Yes, well, I wasn’t saying I’d elope with him tomorrow or anything,” she sniffed, eyes dancing. “Give him some time to prove himself to me.”

Jiang Cheng couldn’t help but smile back. “That’s true,” he said, raising his voice a little. “At Chifeng-zun’s side, he’ll be able to make a name for himself until the whispers all say that his father was an idiot for keeping him away.”

“And if even that doesn’t work, I’ll marry him in and make him help me run the Jiang sect,” she said cheerfully. “Who needs Lanling Jin?”

“Wait, since when are you inheriting the Jiang sect?”

“I’m older! And anyway, aren’t you marrying Chifeng-zun? That means you’ll be away helping run his sect, and that leaves an opening at home for me.”

“…huh. Good point.”

“Maybe you can just swap places with Meng Yao,” she said, starting to giggle again. “And we can all see how long it takes anyone to notice…”

“Our parents might not,” Jiang Cheng said dryly. “But Chifeng-zun would. If only because I have my sights set on his bed, and I don’t think Meng Yao does.”

“You don’t know that; everyone wants Chifeng-zun. Maybe you have competition.”

“Better to have competition than be oblivious. Do you want to hear the whole story about A-Xian and Lan Wangji’s tragic mutual pining disaster? Xichen-xiong told me all the details he’s been leaving out of his letters.”

“Tell me everything!”

[plan-d-to-i]

I'm seeing around some people saying that Wei Wuxian only helped the Wens because of the debt he owed to WQ and WN. I don't really think like this, but I wanted to know what are your thoughts on this matter. Would WWX had taken such drastic meansures to help the Wens if he didn't owed them a debt? Would he go to the extreme of defecting from his sect and hiding with the Wens in Burail Mounds?

I don't know if I've already sent you this, I tried but I think I did it wrong, I'm not familiar with this app, so sorry lol

No worries! I'm sorry for the delay!! (´｡• ᵕ •｡`) x

So since this fandom is a shitshow I'm going to take a wild guess that the ppl saying Wei Wuxian "onLy helped the Wens because of the debt he owed to WQ and WN" are trying to cast aspersions on his heroism... as if repaying a debt at great personal cost is not already impressive (especially when it's being contrasted with jc's shitty behavior).

We've already seen repeatedly in the story that WWX will prioritize doing the right thing over his comfort and convenience. He did so when he grabbed Su She and was almost pulled down into Biling Lake with him; He did so in the Xuanwu cave when he came to LWJ, JZX.1 and MianMian's help; He did so when he was ready to sacrifice his arm for the wellbeing of Lotus Pier; when he gave jiang cheng his core because the Jiangs made him promise he would take care of him. He didn't have to do any of these things. He did them because he stood by his principles even when it was inconvenient to him. So Wei Wuxian taking drastic measures because he believes in the rightness of what he is doing is not.. new.

So clearly, Wei Wuxian doesn't only act heroically because "he owes someone. Wei Wuxian also doesn't believe repaying one's debts is separable from his morality. If he didn't believe in something he wouldn't do it just because he owes someone:

Wen ZhuLiu, “I can’t fail to repay the debt I owe their generosity.”

Wei WuXian’s expression darkened at once. His voice was harsh as well, “What a joke! Why is it that the debt you owe has to be repaid at the expense of others!”

So while naturally he was grateful to WN and WQ, he didn't help them only for that. He helped them because he knew they were innocent and had been unfairly targeted by Jin Zixun who was abusing his power. Because although revenge is framed as acceptable in universe when it's justified, it's not acceptable when it's indiscriminate; He helped because an injustice had been brought to his attention and because of his humanity and empathy for others.

Most importantly WWX brings up the matter of what the Wens had done for them trying to make jiang cheng understand why helping them is the correct thing to do. Because jiang cheng doesn't understand the concept of doing the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. Because the idea of taking innocent people, including a granny and a toddler, back to their death is fine and dandy to jiang cheng:

However, Wei WuXian clenched his wrist, “Are you joking?! If we return Wen Qing and the others to them, they’d meet nothing but a dead end!”

Jiang Cheng, “I doubt you’ll even return all of them. Why do you care what kind of end they meet? A dead end it is, then—what does it have to do with you?!”

Wei WuXian finally lost his temper, “Jiang Cheng! What- What do you think you’re talking about?! Take it back—don’t make me give you a thrashing! Don’t forget. Who was the one that helped us burn Uncle Jiang’s and Madam Yu’s corpses? Who returned to us the ashes that are in Lotus Pier right now? And who took us in when we were chased after by Wen Chao?!”

Similar to how he later reframes the core transfer to fit jiang cheng's way of thinking...

“How much do you owe my family? Shouldn’t I hate you?! Couldn’t I hate you?! What gives you the right to suddenly make me feel like I should be the one that’s sorry?! What gives you the right to make me feel like some fucking clown after all these years?! What the hell am I?! Do I only deserve to be blinded by your glory, by your light?! Shouldn’t I hate you?!”

...

Wei WuXian continued, “Consider it as my repayment to the Jiang Family.”

Jiang Cheng raised his head and stared at him with swollen, bloodshot eyes. He said in a hoarse voice, “……Repaying my father, my mother, my older sister?”

Wei WuXian massaged his own temples and said, “Forget it. It’s all in the past now. Let’s not mention it anymore.”

Of course jiang cheng only sees debts in terms of what other people should owe HIM and not what he owes others.

WWX also does not take all the Wens at Qiongqi path with him. There are hundreds there. He saves fifty. Those who he knows are part of WN/WQ's group and are therefore innocent of the wholesale wrongdoings of the Wen Clan. - this one goes out to the stans who try to argue that WWX was "protecting the people who burned down Lotus Pier >:-/". Also Lotus Pier didn't burn down that was the Cloud Recesses... so 0 for 0.

Torches were set up on both sides of the valley. The flames flickered now and then within the faint strings of rain, but their blaze nonetheless illuminated the hundreds of heavy silhouettes on the path.

He saved them because, again, it was the right thing. Because he knew they were collateral damage in the cultivation world's anger and hate towards the Wens and the Jins corruption. They weren't hardened combatants, they were:

"Jiang Cheng mocked, “Those sect leaders thought you gathered some leftover forces and crowned yourself king of the hill. So it’s only the old, the weak, the women, and the children.”

[slasherrabbitmadness]

What would it be like if slachers were yandere for the reader? How different would he be from his original self?

Here you go, Anon! Some Yandere headcanons! Female Reader!

Underthecut - NSFW, Dubcon, mentions killing. Forced family.

Michael Myers (JCs or RZs) Lester Sinclair, Bo Sinclair.

Michael Myers

SFW

Besides Brahms, he's King Yandere of the Slashers.

Before you met Michael, he knows almost everything about you. He's been watching you for months.

Shocked when he shows up with your favorite coffee or tea, you just started dating him and never revealed your favorite.

Watches you constantly even when he manages to become your boyfriend. He has nothing better to do. Besides killing.

About killing...Will kill anyone who slights you. That man who was rude to you at work? He's dead. That girl bumped into you and didn't say sorry? She's snuffed out.

About keeping a close on you, will wake up periodically in the middle of the night, just to watch you sleep.

Will hold your hand as you sleep. Smiles to himself when you smile. Likes to think you're dreaming of him.

When awake he'll be indifferent to you.

"Love you, Michael!" You'll nuzzle into him and he'll just stand there, body will stiffen.

He's dying just to smother you in his arms but he has an appearance to maintain.

Will act like you're the biggest pain in the ass.

Acts like it, but really he can't get enough of how feisty you can be.

Expects you to text him every half hour if away from him. Wants to know where exactly you are at all times. At all times. So really, you better be texting every five minutes.

You know what, maybe it'd be better if you never left him alone at all.

Michael is keeping you with him, always.

NSFW

Marks you, everywhere!

Fucks you for hours. Won't stop for anything. Someone knocking on the door? Will fuck you louder, just to make sure they can hear.

On the brink of passing out from fucking for so long? Michael will keep going. Sex doesn't stop till he's done.

Cums all over you. Won't let you clean it up either. Wants to watch it dry on your skin.

He will let you clean up. But you must shower with him. He always showers with you. Wants to make sure you don't touch yourself without him.

About that...He tells you when to masturbate. You aren't allowed to till he gives that go-ahead. And it has to be done in his presence.

Blow him and keep eye contact. He'll run his large hand through your hair and give harsh tugs when it feels good. Which is always.

Doesn't mind at all if you put up a fight, even if it's done playfully. Likes to see you try and fight him off. Your little fists punching into him do nothing to him.

No man or woman better look at you, especially in a lustful way. It's not your fault that person wanted you. But Michael will punish you for it.

Lester Sinclair

SFW

The cutest little thing in all of Louisiana wants to date him? Golly jee!

Spends all his free time just touching you. From feather-light touches to full-on squeezing you.

At first, he shows you off. Proud of himself for nabbing such a beautiful girl. Until Bo gets a good look at you.

It's not just Bo, Vincent too. Both have had their eyes on you just as long as Lester has.

Reminds you every day how much he loves you.

From little cards he makes to carving your name in the animal bones he collects.

"Here, Darlin! For you!"

"Aww, Lester. Hey, you gave me your last name! Lest!"

He will propose! He'll make sure the fireflies are out and about for it! He wants it to be magical. A moment you'll never forget.

After the proposal is when things get more intense.

No more dinner's out to show you off. Dinner is at home. You want to visit the beach and wear that cute two-piece. You can go at night when next to no one is going to be there.

You'll notice he makes you check in with him more frequently if you actually had to leave for a while. He'll be sweet about it but his intentions are anything but.

NSFW

He used to fuck you anywhere and everywhere. Now? His truck or his own home.

Never in Ambrose. The days of fooling around in the wax museum are long gone.

Will cum in you and only in you. He used to let loose everywhere on you but Lester wants a family.

When you're swollen with his child is when he'll let people see you again. Now they know who you belong to.

When cuddling post-coitus, he'll make you repeat just how much you love him, how much you want him, how desperately you need him.

Lester will get so bad he won't want you to leave his place without him. You must be with him if your gonna leave.

Strokes your hair in the middle of the night, whispering how pretty you are. How amazing it is you'll always be his.

Bo Sinclair

SFW

Didn't think much of you at first. Just another girl for him to pump and dump.

Watched you flirt with Lester. Laughed whenever you did and scowled whenever Lester laughed.

"I'll have to put a stop to that."

Will throw some cheesy pick-up lines at you. You'll laugh, even if they can be a little cringy.

You'll notice he starts to hang around you a lot more. Insists you come and help him at the garage.

You won't actually do any work, will just have you sit there with him. He'll try to get you to laugh with some of his lame jokes.

You'll notice him just staring at you. Eyes lingering on you longer than they should. He'll swear he wasn't looking, just spaced out.

Bo will watch your favorite shows with you, just to get close to you. He'll hate what you like but if it means he can get you next to him for hours on end, curled up on the couch he'll do it.

Makes you extremely dependant upon him. From food to what you'll wear. He'll rummage through victims' clothes and pick out the most flattering outfits for you. He'll feed you better than he feeds himself

Very protective over you. Especially during a late-night walk in Ambrose.

Keeps you hidden away from potential victims. For your safety and Bo doesn't want to risk you falling for someone else.

Or someone taking you.

But you'd never fall for someone else. You have Bo.

NSFW

About being with him all the time. He's gonna make sure you are. Even if he isn't there, you're gonna be in a safe place he treats like a second home.

Have fun spending lots of time in his basement.

Bo will get it in your head that it's dangerous outside. That it's best to stay safe in the basement.

"They don't know this place exists, Doll. You'll be safe here. No no, it's best you stay."

No matter how good you are Bo will restrain you.

He's not taking any chances with you.

Like Lester, he wants a family.

Cooes in your ear that you'll be a great mother.

"Gotta get started on making that family now, Doll."

The type to go at it all night just to make sure it happens.

He smiles to himself when you cry for him to not leave you alone.

"I'll be back, Doll, I swear." has fun tormenting you this way.

Happy and smug as all hell when you cuddle up into him. Telling him to never leave you again.

"Never, I'll never leave you, Darlin. As long as you keep being good for me."

[no--envies]

In my opinion, one of the reasons JC went crazy after WWX’s death and started venting his own anger and hatred on every demonic cultivator he met, regardless if they were guilty or innocent, is that he couldn’t stand the fact that he hadn’t managed to deal the killing blow to WWX. After all his effort in leading the siege and using the information he had on the Burial Mounds to plan the action and convince everyone else to follow him, he wasn’t even the one who actually killed WWX. WWX died because one of his cultivation techniques backfired and he was torn to pieces by his own ghost army.

I think JC couldn’t accept this. After everything he had done - and thinking he was justified in hating WWX for all the perceived wrongdoings he believed he was a victim of - WWX had managed to surpass him once again. Nobody was able to kill him, not even him.

We know JC’s reaction in the aftermath of the siege because JGY and XY directly comment on it in the extra focused on them:

Xue Yang, “What about his flute? Can you get me Chenqing?”

Jin GuangYao shrugged, “Not Chenqing. Jiang WanYin took it.”

Xue Yang, “Doesn’t he hate Wei WuXian the most? Why would he need Chenqing? Didn’t you also get that sword of Wei WuXian’s? Give him the sword in exchange for the flute. It’s long since Wei WuXian stopped using his sword, while Suibian sealed itself and nobody can pull it out. What’s the use of keeping a fucking piece of decoration?”

Jin GuangYao, “You really ask me to do the impossible, Young Master Xue. Do you think I haven’t tried? How could anything be that simple. That Jiang WanYin has already gone mad. He still thinks Wei WuXian hasn’t died. If Wei WuXian returned, he might not search for his sword, but he’d definitely come for Chenqing. And so, he would definitely not give up Chenqing. A few more words of mine, and he might blow up.”

Xue Yang sniggered, “A mad dog.”

(Chapter 118, ExR translation)

Whatever JC had tried to achieve by leading the siege, he wasn’t able to achieve it. If the only thing he had wanted was to punish WWX for his deeds, he would have been satisfied with his own role in WWX’s death. I don’t think killing WWX was the only thing he wanted, though. He was probably trying to prove something, to himself and everyone else. He wanted to prove that he could surpass WWX for once, and that WWX had been wrong all along in choosing to put himself at risk to help others instead of listening to him. He wanted WWX to admit it was all his fault.

After a while of silence, Jiang Cheng asked, “You’ll stay like this from now on? Got any plans?”

Wei WuXian, “Not at the moment. None of the group dares go down the mountain. People don’t dare do anything anything to me when I go down the mountain either. It’ll be fine as long as I don’t stir up trouble on my own.”

“On your own?” Jiang Cheng sneered, “Wei WuXian, do you believe that even if you don’t stir up trouble on your own, trouble won’t come and find you? It’s often impossible to save someone, but there are more than thousands of ways to harm someone.”

Wei WuXian replied as he ate, “A man with strength can defeat ten with skill. I don’t care if they have thousands of ways. I’ll kill whoever comes.”

Jiang Cheng spoke in a cool voice, “You never listen to any of my opinions. One day, you’ll come to understand that I’m the one who’s right.”

(Chapter 75, ExR translation)

JC had always tried to convince WWX to abandon his path. Since he couldn’t outshine WWX in any way, he wanted to at least prove he was right in the path he had chosen, that choosing to help others at the expense of oneself ultimately wasn’t worth it. But WWX wasn’t swayed in the least. He kept walking resolutely on his single-plank bridge in the dark, regardless of what anyone else thought.

WWX was aware of JC’s mentality: he knew JC wouldn’t willingly put his own reputation at risk to help him protect Wens if he could avoid it. This was one of the main things that divided them since they were teenagers: their values and outlooks were simply too different, it was only a matter of time before their choices made them take completely diverging paths. WWX was fine anyway, he could take care of himself - this mindset could be seen as too overconfident, but he wasn’t completely wrong. He knew he could protect the Wen remnants even without relying on anyone else, since he managed to do it for two years before everything crumbled at Qiongqi Path.

In the end, Jin Zixun ambushed WWX accusing him of something he hadn’t done, and everything spiraled down so quickly he couldn’t do anything to prevent it, until he lost control of his demonic cultivation and killed Jin Zixuan. The sects’ suspicion towards him turned into open hostility and everyone was immediately ready to consider him an actual threat to them all. After the bloodbath of Nightless City, WWX was labeled as the scourge of the cultivation world, an enemy that should be eliminated to guarantee everyone’s peace and safety.

At first glance, one could think JC was right and WWX was wrong. But if this was really what the novel is trying to tell us, why was JC unable to move on for thirteen years, while WWX was immediately ready to start a new life and leave everything in the past after he was brought back? Even when JC managed to capture WWX and confronted him, WWX didn’t have anything to say to him.

The cup was steaming. Before he had taken a single sip, Jiang Cheng suddenly hurled it at the floor. He lifted the corner of his lip slightly and spoke. “You—you don’t have anything to say to me?”

[...]

“I don’t know what to say to you,” Wei Wuxian replied sincerely.

“So you refuse to repent,” Jiang Cheng said in a low voice.

In their past conversations, they had frequently tried to sarcastically undermine each other. Wei Wuxian thus replied without thinking, “Similarly, you haven’t improved a single ounce either.”

Jiang Cheng’s answering smile was brimming with fury. “Fine. Then let’s see which of us truly hasn’t shown an ounce of improvement.”

(Chapter 24, Fanyiyi translation)

I think this exchange is very interesting: WWX and JC are no longer bickering or teasing each other as they so frequently did in the past. What had once been a complicated relationship with genuine affection beneath it all, now retained only the semblance of it. There’s no more warmth, no more anything worth trying to repair. While JC is still adamant about using WWX as a scapegoat to avoid reflecting on his own mistakes, WWX has long since moved on. He doesn’t even feel resentment towards JC, he just wants to live his new life freely.

JC is an interesting foil for WWX, their interactions show how fundamentally incompatible they are and both of their character arcs highlight one of the main themes of the novel: the importance of letting go of all the grudges and negative feelings and remembering the good things, since only then one can truly be free. This is something WWX knows perfectly well:

Wei WuXian propped his arm on Lil’ Apple’s head, spinning Chenqing in his hand, “My mom said you have to remember the things others do for you, not the things you do for others. Only when people don’t hold so much in their hearts would they finally feel free.”

This was one of the only things he remembered about his parents.

(Chapter 113, ExR translation)