#So this is not an 'Odysseus did nothing wrong'. This is an 'Odysseus did many things very wrong but he didn't kill his son

[longagoitwastuesday]

I keep thinking of that reply in my Odysseus/Agamemnon post about how I regard differently Odysseus' and Agamemnon's actions, while acknowledging that at times Agamemnon is written as a sweet man and Odysseus is always straight up shitty, and how it was taken as some sort of defense for Agamemnon and as a form of pointing out the double standard; and that wasn't at all what the post was about for me, even though I can see where they were coming from. To be honest, given I didn't imagine it would spread anywhere other than my own blog, I didn't explain myself very well (or at all).

The fact is that when I talked about Odysseus not caring about hurting someone else's child to start and end a war I was indeed comparing his actions to Agamemnon's, but my words about supporting Odysseus' wrongs and cheering him in his terrible actions, while in a joking tone, weren't entirely a joke. I do think that Odysseus does some very shitty acts, and some quite terrible ones depending on the sources. That's a fact, that he does is at the core of his characterisation and it's what makes him so much fun; but not even when he is at his most cruel does he harm his family, his own son. Agamemnon, while sweet and loving at times in some texts, at his worst is willing to sacrifice Iphigenia. When readers regard with more sympathy Odysseus over Agamemnon despite both being responsible for children dying, I don't think there's a double standard in this aspect at all considering it's never his own kid Odysseus harms. And that's the key, I think.

Odysseus and Agamemnon have very different priorities, a very different view on loyalty and duty. It could be said that Agamemnon acts out of selfishness, but it could also be read in a kinder light, saying that Agamemnon is ruled by the gods first, and by his role as head of the achaeans; Agamemnon is not entirely himself. In opposition we see Odysseus acting perhaps mainly for himself and his own family and men; yes, he is a king, but he has not the role Agamemnon has. As a consequence, Agamemnon submits his family's wellbeing to the war, to the gods, while Odysseus stops the plow before hurting Telemachus but is (depending on the source) the cause of Iphigenia's sacrifice and Astyanax's death.

Both Odysseus and Agamemnon have reasons to support their actions, and both can be sympathised with; it's fiction after all. When it comes to fiction, at the end of the day which character a reader is drawn to or sympathises with is mainly an issue of personal taste, but I suppose it also implies a certain level of one's own views or preferences on morals, what makes us find certain actions more justifiable, or tasteful (perhaps that's a more accurate word), than others. Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter, no matter how sympathetic or understandable the reason, generally sits worse on people than Odysseus doing the same with someone else's kids, because they're someone else's. This different emotional reaction they provoke has place not just metanarratively, but also inside the very story; it is narratively significant, given it determines how their arrival home plays out, how their wives react to them, and thus their futures. Ultimately it determines whether they live or die.

I think both terrible acts go in line wonderfully with each characterisation, showcasing the role they hold in their world, what they value, what they care for, what they're willing to sacrifice for themselves and the others, how much of their own they're willing to give and bend. While looking at the wider picture it could perhaps be drawn that Agamemnon is the better person out of the two, but Odysseus' selfish actions are perhaps easier to empathise with, especially from a modern viewpoint. Odysseus is treacherous and prone to betrayal, but not against his own; Agamemnon follows the rules of the gods. How fitting in that context that Odysseus doesn't die at the end of his story, that he cheats the death heroes so often are fated to, almost as if cheating the narrative itself, bending the rules of the world he is ascribed to; how fitting in the context of those texts that point towards Sisyphus being his father. But that's another topic, and I've already talked a lot.

[dootznbootz]

I don't think Greek Mythology retellings/adaptions/inspired/etc. are necessarily "evil"...but I DO think people REALLY need to understand that there's a huge difference between the actual mythology and certain media.

I feel like people have to basically do a "Fandom ___" to say the different versions. Like "PJO ___", "Hades game ___", "TSOA ___". For it to be understood that these depictions are DIFFERENT. I'm saying this as someone who grew up reading PJO and still has a soft spot for it. But as someone who really loves Greek Mythology as well, I sometimes get really SAD.

I'm going to use the comparison of Howl's Moving Castle with it's Book Vs. Movie. I enjoy both!!! But they are honestly very different. In the movie there is no "sister swap", Markle isn't a young teenager, Sophie doesn't throw weed killer at Howl, and many more moments. But I enjoy both because even though there are changes they still keep components that are ingrained into the characters!

In some Greek Myth retellings/adaptations/stories/etc., characters are...SO different from the source material. That's fine...Choose what you want with your story... But folks should know that the modern adaptations are NOT the source material!!!

It bothers me that a lot of these wonderful myths and stories are twisted up and seen so differently because of a modern version of them. You can have that character be "awful" or a certain way in your story. But I almost feel that as fans, it's not good to generalize them or see it as "This is the truth". People are hating the mythological figure when it's only in that interpretation they are like that.

In PJO, Ares is "Zeus' favorite", isn't a good dad, a misogynist, etc. The actual myths? One of his Epithets is LITERALLY "Feasted by Women", in the Iliad everybody basically bullies him with Zeus literally saying he hates him. He cries when he learns one of his sons is killed in the war. He literally kills someone about to rape his daughter. Ares isn't perfect but it makes me sad with how he's viewed and talked about when it's only in PJO he's like that. Same with Dionysus. Read the Bacchae, you'll love it.

In Lore Olympus, Apollo rapes Persephone (noticing the fact that modern takes on the myths add rapes where there never were hmmmmm) when he never did in any of the myths.

In TSOA, Thetis is cruel when in the Iliad, she is such a loving mother to Achilles. She grieved alongside her son over Patroclus. Also with Agamemnon. In Ipheginia at Aulis, Agamemnon is a MESS. He adored his children.

In Circe, Odysseus is viewed as a selfish man who ONLY hurts others and doesn't care about his family when that is LITERALLY his one consistent character trait. HE is actually the one who is the victim of rape. Circe was never raped.

Medusa is only a victim in Ovid's, a Roman man, works. Not in GREEK mythology. She was just a cool monster. Leave Perseus alone. Poseidon and Medusa actually had a consensual relationship in Greek Mythology!

These adaptations/retellings/inspired by/etc. whatever anybody wants to call them, are not the real myths! They may be similar in some ways but to just generalize them or hate the deity/mythological figure because of something they did in the new media feels fucked up!

You can enjoy these new stories. There's nothing wrong with that!!! But know they're not the real myths. Maybe even label it as "I hate ____'s version of ____". As that makes it clear what version you're talking about.

[xjulixred45x]

Do you know something that honestly bothers me? that when they want to make retellings of Greek stories, they almost always go for the figures that really do not deserve their own story.

I KNOW IT SOUNDS BAD, BUT LISTEN.

Circe, for example, from this woman (who turned out to be quite controversial) Madeline, they try to sell you Circe's story as a "feminist" retelling and normally there would be nothing wrong with that.

The issue is that Circe (in the myths and from what I understand in the book) is not at all feminist.

I mean, she is a morally gray woman, I respect that, but is it really a good idea to use as an example of a "feminist" a woman who 1- killed a man who did not want to be unfaithful to his wife with her, 2- converted an innocent nymph in a MONSTER (Scylla) only for an unrequited love (again) and 3- in Telogony, after Odysseus dies (her supposed "lover" who in some versión she ENCHANTED, at the hands of the son they had together) she marries HIS ANOTHER SON.

Since when did a woman who tramples on men or hurts other women for her own benefit become a "feminist" or "girlboss"??

WITH SO MANY OTHER POSSIBLE SCENARIOS TO MAKE RETELINGS OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY AND THEY DECIDE TO GO FOR CIRCE?

"BUT JUlIx WHAT ANOTHER EXAMPLE DO YOU WANT THEM TO USE?? Circe is SUPER KNOWN, OBVIOUSLY it's easier to go for her"

other examples? let's see:

MEDUSA (old classic, a great allegory that still works today about how SA victims are re-victimized and blamed by the people who should be protecting them/they don't get justice because their attacker is more "relevant" and powerful than them). (Even if it's the Roman versión, You can't Say that a myth that reflects the reality of THOUSANDS of women and give streng to the víctims its not "feminist")

PENTHESILEA(Amazon queen who fought in the Trojan War, which she attended because she was depressed after having accidentally killed her sisters, but she did not leave without killing dozens of Trojans and fighting with Achilles himself. IMAGINE A BOOK ABOUT HER) .

THE AMAZONS IN GENERAL (Tribes of warlike women, daughters of Ares, whom he loved very much, who had a matriarchal system that existed without men, without competition, with a great sense of sisterhood and who participated in many velic encounters in mythology) .

HERMIONE OF SPARTA AND ANDROMACHA (the daughter of Helen of Troy and Menelaus and the wife of Hector of Troy respectively. Both were married against their wills to Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, who was abusive (quite graphically) and they hated him. Imagine a story where the two become friends and team up to kill Neo, Hermione takes control of Sparta and Andromache is her second in command).

ATALANTA (The only woman of the Argonauts who, when the magical boar of Calidon appeared, was the one who managed to hurt him first and kept the home trophy (but FOR SOME REASON later there are myths that kill her in the stupidest way possible, thanks Aphrodite) )

In conclusion, let's give the spotlight to Greek women who genuinely deserve to be known about them❤️ (without trowing Hate to Circe, she DESERVES TO BE KNOWN, but not as a feminist story).

________

(ESPAÑOL)

¿saben algo que sinceramente me molesta? que cuando se quieren jacer retelings de las historias griegas, casi siempre van por las figuras que realmente no se merecen una historia propia.

SE QUE SUENA MAL, PERO ESCUCHEN.

Circe, por ejemplo, de esta mujer(que resulto ser bastante polemica) Madeline, tratan de venderte la historia de Circe como un reteling "feminista" y eso normalmente no tendria nada de malo.

el tema es que Circe(en los mitos y por lo que tengo entendido en el libro) no tiene nada de feminista.

digo, es una mujer moralmente gris, eso lo respeto, pero ¿realmente es buena idea usar de ejemplo de "feminista" a una mujer que 1- mato a un hombre que no queria serle infiel a su esposa con ella, 2- convirtio a una ninfa inocente en un MONSTRUO(escilla) solo por un amor no correspondido (otra vez) y 3- en Telogony, después de que Odiseo muere(su supuesto "enamorado", a manos del hijo que tuvieron juntos) ella se casa CON SU OTRO HIJO.

¿¿desde cuando una mujer que pisotea a los hombres o hace daño a otras mujeres por beneficio propio paso a ser "feminista" o "girlboss"??

CON TANTOS OTROS POSIBLES ESCENARIOS PARA HACER RETELINGS DE LA MITOLOGÍA GRIEGA Y DECIDEN IR POR CIRCE?

"PeRo jUlIx ¿¿QuE oTrO eJeMpLo QuIeReS qUe UsEn?? Circe Es sUpEr cOnOcIdA, OBVIamente es mas facil ir por ella"

¿otros ejemplos? veamos:

MEDUSA(viejo clasico, una gran alegoria que sigue funcionando hasta hoy sobre como las victimas de SA son re-victimizadas y culpadas por la gente que deberia protegerlas/no obtienen justicia porque su agresor es mas "relevante" y poderoso que ellas).

PENTESILEA (Reina amazona que peleo en la guerra de Troya, a la cual asistio por estar deprimida al haber matado accidentalmente a sus hermanas, pero no se fue sin matar a decenas de troyanos y pelear con el propio Aquiles. IMAGÍNENSE UN LIBRO SOBRE ELLA).

LAS AMAZONAS EN GENERAL (Tribus de mujeres guerraras hijas de Ares, a las cuales el amaba mucho, que tenian un sistema matriarcal que existia sin hombres, sin competencia, con un gran sentido de hermandad y que participaron en muchos encuentros velicos en la mitología).

HERMÍONE DE ESPARTA Y ANDROMACA(la hija de Helena de Troya y Menelao y la esposa ee Hector de troya respectivamente. ambas se casaron en contra de sus voluntades con Neoptolemo, el hijo de Aquiles, que era abusivo(bastante gráficamente) y lo odiaban. imaginense una historia donde ambas se hacen amigas y se alian para matar a Neo, Hermíone toma el control de Esparta y Andromaca es su segunda al mando).

ATALANTA(La unica mujer de los argonautas que cuando aparecio el jabali magico de calidon fue quien logro lastimarlo primero y se quedo con el trofeo de casa(pero POR ALGUNA RAZON después hay mitos que la matan de la forma mas estupida posible, gracias Afrodita))

en conclusión, demosle el reflector a mujeres griegas que genuinamente merecen que se sepa de ellas❤️(sin titarle Hate a Circe, MERECE SER CONOCIDA, pero no como historia feminista).

[thetimetel]

I see a lot of people hating so hard on Calypso for forcing Odysseus to stay on the island against his will - and seeing him as her new lover. And believe me, I get it. Those are horrible things no sane person would do.

But I keep being brought back to this line in her song with him. The part where she specifically says 'under my spell we're stuck in paradise. No one can come or go, my island stays unknown'.

She can't leave either. And that paints a whole new light on the situation.

How long has she been stuck there, all by herself? Years? Decades? She says in her last song that it's been a hundred years. Long enough that she has stopped calling it a prison and now calls it a paradise. How long has it been that she has done the same thing every day, pining for any other contact at all?

Then one day, something changes. A man washes up on the shoreline. She immediately takes him to her bed so he can rest and recover. She can already see the new life that they're going to have together, thanking the gods for finally answering her prayers to no longer be alone. She is immortal after all, and eternity is so much more bearable when you have someone else to spend it with.

But something's wrong. He's sleeping for so long, not waking up. And the panic starts to set in. Is he dead? Have the gods played some horrible trick on her, sending a dead man to the island? It's been so long since she has seen a mortal that she doesn't know how to check for signs of death. Is she really so desperate that she brought a CORPSE to bed and thinks it's going to wake up??

Then oh, it's good! He's talking in his sleep! Everything's good, everything is fine. Corpses don't talk. So she stays near him and listens as he whispers of Ithaca, of monsters and politics - wait, Polites, a few other names and then -

'Penelope'

And in that moment her entire vision for her new life comes crashing down. He said that name with such passion, such love, even in his sleep. No. It can't be. The gods aren't THAT cruel, that the first person they'd send to her is . . . no. She can't accept it, doesn't dare to think of the implications. Once he wakes up she'll ask him.

Then finally he does wake up. And it's like a dream. She's in the room, has clearly been taking care of him, and the very first thing he sees is her eyes. It's so romantic. She gets him up to speed, making a light joke about that 'thought you were dead' moment because it doesn't matter anymore. There's only one more thing to ask to ensure her vision of their future.

'did you know you talk in your sleep? Tell me though, who's Penelope?'

'She's my wife'

And in that instant all her fears are confirmed. Something in her head just snaps. How dare the gods do this to her? How DARE they send someone already married to her island, after so long?

She's not giving up that easily.

So she continues her plan like nothing had happened. Letting slip her intention to wed him and make this wonderful family, of which she has likely named their first ten children already. And this man snaps at her, threatens to kill her.

'Oh handsome, you may try. But last I checked, goddesses can't die!'

And just how many times has she checked, being trapped on an island that she can't escape all by herself?

But again she brushes it off as a joke. Because that's all behind her. There's something for her to live for again! And silly Odysseus tries to claim that this isn't how it's going to be. She totally gets it, she went through that the first few years herself. So she spells out that he's all hers now.

Now all she has to do, is wait. Wait for him to come to terms with their situation. Wait for him to realize he will never reach Penelope. It will be ugly of course, that moment he finally accepts this cruel fate. But once that has passed, he'll fall for Calypso. She knows this in her heart. And they can finally set out to truly make this hellhole a paradise.

So she waits.

One year passes.

She's still having the time of her life. In between his escape attempts she's getting him to open up to her. When she explained her past to him he even showed sympathy! After all, they both were constantly getting screwed over by the gods. It wouldn't take long.

Two years pass.

His constant escape attempts are just amusing. She's taken to telling him 'welcome back!' every time the raft turns around and brings him back to the island.

Three years pass.

He tries to kill her, under the thought that it was her that was keeping him on the island. But she just laughs as she shows it didn't do a damn thing. He'll run out of ideas soon. He'll accept that he's trapped here, just like her.

Four years pass.

She's lost count of the number of escape attempts. There's at least five a day. He's trying to find a loophole in the curse that keeps them there. She's trying to gently push him over that edge, to get him to accept the reality of the situation. Once he does, their new life together will start.

Five years pass.

Any day now, he'd give up. The escape attempts had stopped, but now he would just sob on the shoreline. At this point he was going to raise the tide with how many tears he had cried. She understood of course. Her breakdown hadn't been any prettier all those years ago.

Six years.

Why? Why wasn't he giving up? Why was he doing this to himself? The escape attempts had renewed. He'd searched the entire island, trying to find something tethering them to this accursed paradise. He'd tried everything to escape. She wasn't even sure where he'd gotten the 'wax wings' idea from, but it was just as pointless as the other attempts.

Seven years.

She finds him at the edge of a cliff. And for the first time she feels a deep, primal fear. He'd never accepted her gift of immortality. She desperately tries to talk him down. But every attempt seems to be making it worse. She doesn't know she's repeating the words he's heard before. Then he cries out for Athena, and when she doesn't answer he just collapses in tears.

It was scary. But this had to be his breaking point. He didn't resist when she brought him back to their home, though he stayed in bed for the rest of the day. She just had to give him some space - though she was going to make CERTAIN he stayed away from that cliff.

Then something happens. The last thing she expected.

A visit from Hermes. He tells that Zeus himself has decreed Odysseus be freed.

And yet again, her vision of the future is shattered.

She pleads. She begs. He's falling for her, she knows it. That new life is so close, she just needs a little more time! But her cries fall on deaf ears. And when she tries to refuse, a lightning bolt lands a little too close for comfort.

There's only one chance left.

And in her heart she knows how it will end. But she tries. She tries to convince Odysseus to stay, knowing that if she fails he will leave her all alone again. She doesn't want to be alone again. She pleads, she begs, she pours out her entire soul to him. All while knowing what his answer will be. It hadn't changed for seven years, why would it change now? Why would this fucking world EVER give her what she wanted!?

And it ends just like she expects it to. With her watching as he gets on that raft and sails off into the horizon. Except this time Hermes keeps the curse at bay, and stops the island from bringing him back.

And just like that, she's all alone again.

[sarnai4]

Bullies

When I say that was so excited to see (hear) Athena in Little Wolf, just know I mean that. This whole situation always bothered me with the suitors. Just 100+ adults who are so disrespectful not just to other people in general but also to their queen and prince of all people. Normally, I wouldn't care so much about the last part, but I feel like it counts here. Their king isn't just some pompous coward who'd sending others out to do his dirty work while he sits on his royal throne. He went out to help fight and did his best for a very long time to keep everyone alive. You could tell his people loved him. So, although there's nothing wrong with not wanting to go to battle, these guys are pitiful and cruel. They have the actual audacity to take advantage of Penelope's kindness and hospitality by staying far longer than any proper guest would, constantly make moves on her despite her hoping that her beloved is still alive and not having an interest in any of them, are abusive towards her child, and now, are like, "Well, she can pick between one of us getting with her or all of us killing her son. So...that's fair." Heck, I cannot wait for Odysseus to show up. I don't think I've ever been so excited for the results of a hero going down a dark path before. I can only imagine how abusive the suitors were to Telemachus when he was even younger and how many times Penelope probably had to fight these jerks off. No wonder she's staying in her room! it's the only place she feels safe! Ugh, I'm really not done venting, but this is it for this post at least. #IsupportOdyandhisspree

[lurking-latinist]

I just saw this awesome post about including mobility aids in fantasy writing, and I do not want to create a tangent but I *do* want to share some things I learned about disability in ancient Greece when I was researching that paper I wrote on the Philoctetes, so I am making my own post.

Philoctetes is a mythical figure who was one of the Greek heroes going to the Trojan war. Before they got there, he suffered a wound in the foot which would not heal. The other Greek leaders were unwilling to have the noise of his screams and the stench of the infected wound in their camp, so they abandoned him on a deserted island with only his famous weapon, the Bow of Heracles. He survived there for ten years. Now the war is almost over, Troy has almost fallen, but the Greeks have heard a prophecy: they cannot win until they have the Bow of Heracles. So wily Odysseus and young Neoptolemus (the son of the recently dead Achilles) go to the island where Philoctetes is still living, still dealing with his injury. Philoctetes is eager to escape the island, but can he trust the community that abandoned him ten years ago? Can they ever make right what they did to him?

Now that’s the type of story that someone might very well point to who was arguing that disabled people have to be neglected and excluded in a “historically accurate” story. And it’s definitely not an example of casual inclusion. But what that person would be missing is that Philoctetes’ abandonment and isolation in this play was intended to be shocking to its Athenian audience. The audience is invited to identify with Philoctetes and to be horrified at how he does not receive the support from his community that real-world people with similar disabilities did receive, as we can tell from both textual and archaeological evidence.

Martha L. Rose’s book The Staff of Oedipus: Transforming Disability in Ancient Greece emphasizes this. Look, here’s what I wrote in my paper, why should I rewrite it:

Rose approaches her material “though the lens of disability studies, which approaches the phenomenon of disability by assuming that there is nothing inherently wrong with the disabled body and that the reaction of a society to the disabled body is neither predictable nor immutable” (1). In other words, it is necessary to see what attitudes and assumptions about disabilities are actually recorded, rather than projecting any of our own assumptions. ...

Also unlike today, Greek concepts of disability were not medicalized. “Permanent physical disability,” writes Rose, “was not the concern of doctors in antiquity beyond recognition of incurability” (11). This does not mean that disabled people had no resources or were simply left to perish, of course. Rather, they were often cared for within their households and their communities (28), which means that both Philoctetes’ abandonment and isolation form a shocking exception to the norm. The importance of community support suggests that Philoctetes’ joy at being reunited with humanity comes from practical as well as emotional needs. At the same time, the wide range of tasks and trades in the Greek economy meant that many disabled people were far from economically dependent (think of [the god] Hephaestus the lame smith), so that “[a] physically handicapped person earning a living would not have been a remarkable sight” (39). People unable to walk at all rode donkeys or were carried in litters, while those who walked with difficulty used a staff or a crutch (24-26).

So for writers: the ancient Greeks didn’t invent the wheelchair--but they had the wheel technology (I suspect the issue may have been with roads and pavements instead), so your Greek-inspired fantasy world totally can (which was the point of that earlier post). Or maybe your protagonist goes on their adventures with a faithful donkey sidekick that helps them get around. Maybe they are respected for their skill in a craft, making their home and workshop a lively meeting-place for customers. If you’re writing fantasy, you could be inspired by one of the myths of Hephaestus, in which he creates metal automatons--basically, magic robots--that not only support him as he walks, they also act as assistants in his workshop!

Anyway, the point of this post is basically just that I agree with the other post about including mobility aids in fantasy and I had some relevant knowledge in the back of my head. And also that you should read the Philoctetes. Look, here’s a recent free modern English verse translation: https://johnstoniatexts.x10host.com/sophocles/philocteteshtml.html

Oh, and if you would like to see my term paper or the relevant section from The Staff of Oedipus, message me, I will share them.

[lyculuscaelus]

A Delicate Copy

(AU; a pretty old one-shot, finally got the time to upload it on tumblr)

Nobody greeted him “morning” this time.

He woke up on an unfamiliar beach. The sand felt different—coarser than the one he used to sit on in those last seven years. The air smelled misty, unlike the clear sky that used to embrace most parts of the island with her warm arms, a cycle lasting for seven years. He saw the trees growing in bloom, but they did not remind him of his homeland—for he didn’t find that forest anywhere, nor did he see his beloved Mount Neriton. There were only mists, mists that used to arise from the wine-dark sea, mists that used to hide the face of death where gods were lurking, mists that used to give way to the warmth of a cave, in the past seven years.

And that was when he finally realized he was lost. Again.

The tired mariner crumbled on the beach, and sobbed.

He didn’t check what his tears were made of, for he knew there was nothing but pain in them. Pain as found in the glimmering reflection, pain as found in himself. Twenty years of pain condensed into one single teardrop, and he held up his hands to wipe it from his face.

But he sobbed still.

He did not see the herd of sheep coming. He did not see the young man cloaked in a kingly air walking. He sobbed until he felt himself melting, and that was when he stopped, for his sorrow had brought him burning rage. Rage for an unjust promise.

“Where did the Phaeacians send me? What country have I come to this time?” he roared, clenching his fists. “Why did they leave me here—with all this treasure I cannot protect? Have those Phaeacians not promised me to send me home—to my homeland where I came into being? And now what foreign land is this? Those idiots…they did me wrong indeed. May Zeus, god of suppliants, grant them a punishment that is only too proper for them…but for now, let me just count these gifts, in case some of them happen to be missing.”

And so he counted. The tripods seemed untampered, and the cauldrons looked fine. Gold and silver, and all this splendid clothing—surprisingly, he found nothing missing. Then he rose to his feet, and again he wandered, on this unfamiliar beach, with a heart much-enduring he let out another wail of sorrow, another stream of tears.

And then, the young man came forward. A cloak across his shoulders, A spear in his hand—the tip seemed somewhat strange—the young shepherd stopped, and regarded him curiously.

“Friend,” he addressed the young shepherd quickly, wiping out his tears when his eyes were not coping. “You’re the first one I see here. Will you promise me no harm, if I greet you with open arms? For I’m entreating you, like I would a god, to save me, protect my goods, and keep me in good company. I’m begging you, as a friend on his knee. Now please tell me everything, so I can understand—what country have I come to? What people have I met? Is this a sunny isle, or a headland of the mainland reaching out to sea?”

“Stranger—are you a fool? Wait no, I don’t think you are, so you must be a traveler from a distant land,” the young man answered him, his eyes gleaming with amusement. “But I’m sure men from different places have all heard of this island—because of its fertility? Maybe. But it’s a rugged place not fit for herding horses. You can find crops and grapes here, though, but it’s not like they’re uncommon. So I suppose it’s because of its heroes—stranger, do you happen to know the great Argonaut Laërtes, or Odysseus the sacker of cities? This is where they come from—such a place well-known, for I’m sure even lands far as Troy would still recognize the name ‘Ithaca’.”

He twisted his head, searching for memories. Ithaca—a name he had whispered so many times, to the goddess waiting in her cave, to the king sitting on the Phaeacian throne, in the songs he had sung in his pleading. He felt his lips lifting as joy swarmed up in his chest, but something about this place seemed strange…it still felt foreign to him, for some reason.

So he answered carefully. “Ithaca—a famous name indeed. I’ve heard of it even in wide Crete, somewhere far across the sea. Ah, so I’m finally here in person, with all these goods of mine. But there is more that I left when I fled from my city, when a dear son of Idomeneus fell to my own hands, for that swift-footed Orsilochus wished to take away the spoils I had won at Troy, for which I had suffered so much already—in the devastating war and on the dangerous sea. We struck him when he was heading home—me and my companions, with my bronze-tipped spear I ended him. But then I ran off to a ship, paying some Phoenicians to get me to other lands—I’d hoped they would take me to either Pylos or Elis, but the winds did not heed our command. And then here I was, worn out by exhaustion, laid low by sleep. But when I woke up, I found them all gone—and now it’s just me, alone with all my goods, here on this foreign land, seeking help.”

The young man smiled, and replied with a hand reaching out to his left shoulder. “Surely, Odysseus, one’s cunningness must be so wily if he is to outwit you—even for a god.”

He felt a jerk in his heart. How would a young shepherd like him see through his disguise?

“Yes, I know who you are—that pair of eyes I have indeed seen and heard of,” the young man continued gleefully. “But come now, Odysseus, do you really think there will be a celebration party waiting for you here? No, you will find troubles in your home, and I fear even you cannot defeat them this time.”

“What trouble are we speaking of?” Odysseus asked tentatively. “Then again, something feels wrong about this place already. If it is indeed Ithaca you’re speaking of, I don’t find any evidence—”

“You’re always thinking like that, aren’t you?” the young shepherd giggled. “No wonder people call you polymetis. Anyone else would’ve rushed to meet his wife and children—but not Odysseus. No, he’d test everything with trickery first, then he’d observe his wife himself, seeing if she’s still the Penelope he knew of—the answer is yes, even if you’d like to see for yourself. She still remains your wife—though not for long. At this very moment there are one hundred and eight suitors reveling in your house, spending your wealth as they wait for your wife to reconsider her marriage—a proposal she’s been denying for three years straight.”

He felt delighted, somehow, knowing that Penelope remained his own, even when he didn’t belong to Penelope alone anymore. For days he had been wondering if Penelope would find comfort in the fact that she didn’t have to wait for him any longer, and now…he could finally find out for himself.

“As for this place,” the young shepherd continued, pointing to the west. “I bet you can’t recognize it because of all this fog—it’ll probably disperse any moment soon—see? Now it’s gone.”

And then Odysseus saw it—Mount Neriton, where the forest was verdant; Phorcys’s anchorage, with an olive tree standing at the harbor head; the Naiads’ cave beside it—where one would make sacrifices to the nymphs to grant their wishes. And as Odysseus beheld everything, he fell to his knees, kissing the fertile ground with great passion, and held out his hands towards the nymphs with an utterance of prayer. The young man watched him with interest. But when Odysseus finished his prayer, the young shepherd replied. “Now let’s not delay but put these goods in some hidden corner of this sacred cave. Then I’ll tell you all the details about the troubles in your house before you go.”

And they brought them all into the cave—the shining bronze and gold, the fine clothes and all other gifts—and then they worked together to move a rock in place to block the entrance. When they had finished their work, the young shepherd was the first to speak. “Now, Odysseus, you can begin to plan for the suitors’ demise. That is a task I cannot assist you—but know that you can always trust your swineherd and your own son. So, stop by his house before you head for the palace. You can learn about everything that transpires in your house there.”

Then the shepherd gestured to him to go.

And Odysseus nodded with gratitude, then walked away. He didn’t notice how the young shepherd stared at his back, how a smirk revealed itself on his lips, how he slowly walked up, a spear in his hand, and all of a sudden—

Odysseus found himself falling to his knees, his back bleeding. 

And then the pain suddenly struck.

He knelt down to the ground, gasping in surprise and anguish. He barely caught a glimpse of the young man pacing beside him, as the shepherd finally spoke. “Well done, Odysseus, you have left your back open.”

“Why…why are you doing this?” Odysseus growled, his voice failing. “Who…are you?”

“A son you never had,” the young man smiled ominously. 

“Te…Tele…?”

“No,” the young man cut him off, looking away in disgust. “No, you’re the farthest thing I have to a father.”

“But…but why?”

“Touch your wound, and you’ll find your answer.”

So he stretched out his right hand with effort, and found the wound he did. Strangely, he did not see any red stained on his fingers—for there was no blood at all. Instead, a drop of water dripped from the tip of the finger, falling towards the sands. “What is…happening to me?” he hissed.

The young shepherd pointed at him with the spear, letting slip his words with wings. “I see you’re a good lier…but not as good as him. I know what you are at first sight—a shadow, a counterfeit, a phantom made of cloud—”

“What?” he exclaimed, his eyes wide open.

“Yes, you’re no Odysseus of Ithaca…” the young shepherd crouched down, lowering his face of mockery. “You’re nothing but a mere eidolon—of the man who is supposed to be here. I see you’re sharing his memories, his wits—but the thing is, you lack his spirit. The heart of a man is built upon hardships he endured, not hardships he remembered. For him, it’s been nineteen years since he had seen his home; but for you, it’s been twenty-seven days only.”

“How could you possibly know?” he snarled, ignoring his pain. “Who are you to judge my memory? The things I recall—the things I feel—They’re so real to me. I can smell the scent of gore as faces of men were smashed against the walls in that Cyclops’s cave, see the rays of Helios diminish as we entered the realm of Hades, hear the war-cries as we clashed with the Trojans…I have felt the pain of losses. I have known fear. I have suffered and sailed through the toughest of hells…and now you’re telling me that all these memories are nothing but fancy?”

“First of all,” the young man rose to his full height. A cloud of gold suddenly enshrouded the shepherd. The next thing he saw, the one standing before him had become a tall woman, armed with a panoply, her spear blazing. Upon her helmet, the red crest seemed as if drenched in blood. On the face of her shield, the head of a Gorgon stood out menacingly.

“…Athena?”

“I am to judge as I say so.” the woman allowed a smirk on her lips. “Second, no, these memories aren’t your fancy—they’re just not yours to begin with. Third, you are far from the man you’re trying to impersonate. For that reason, I have no use for you to clean up the mess here in Ithaca. Now, look at my eyes and tell me—where is Odysseus?”

He gasped, and raised his head painfully. His strength was failing him. “But I am…Odysseus.”

“Don’t keep fooling yourself. What you bear with you is not yours, and I cannot let you take what he has from him—his form, his memories, his sufferings…and his wife, his son, his family. I cannot allow you to have your ‘revenge’ while the real Odysseus suffers still,” the goddess glared at him, her eyes gleaming with rage. “I’ll ask you again—where is he?”

The pain was working its way through his veins as he once again crumbled, this time breathing rapidly as he felt his life slipping away. He had never felt the brink of death so close to him…but then, what remedy could he possibly find to appease the rage of a goddess?

Goddess…

“I don’t know…I’m sorry…” the words sounded softer than a whisper. He knew that death had finally found him—a sacker of cities, a man of twists and turns…

…a shadow of this man, at least—

—he accepted his death like accepting his identity.

He did not see the fluttering waves, forming a near-smirk on the face of the sea.

He did not see the goddess of wisdom plunging her spear into the sands, calculating new wiles for her scheme.

He did not see the wife of Odysseus weeping by her loom, wherein a shroud had been woven, her time run out finally.

For at that moment, he had drawn his final breath already.

All of a sudden, the fallen body melted into a rising cloud, erasing any trace of recognition. A gist of steam rose up silently, taking away one last sign of its existence. Staring at the emptiness where a phantom of Odysseus had once laid, Athena already knew her answer.

“Calypso.”

…………………………………………………………………………………

(TW: implied SA)

He beheld the daylight blankly, trying to blink away the memories of the last five days. Or the last few years—the number had already lost its meaning here.

But he’d never thought the goddess would be cruel enough to lock him up in the cave for five days straight. Five days without sunlight, five days without fresh air, five days without mourning by the sea, whispering hopes of his homecoming.

The door was only opened when he was in need of food…or when the goddess was in need of him. 

Why don’t you just close the door forever, and trap myself in? Why don’t you just leave me here dying of hunger, or simply suffocating?

Is it really necessary to open the door again?

Odysseus shook his head, continuing his walk towards the shore. He didn’t turn to see if the goddess was following behind—he couldn’t care anymore. It wasn’t even the goddess herself who freed him—he just woke up finding the door open, and took his chance. And now he had finally come out, no goddess in sight.

I’d rather die than let you take possession of me. It’s a thought he had whispered on the first night, when he was asked into her cave. When he was forced into her cave. Only now had he realized, he had been so simple, so naïve. 

He did not die, but he had been her possession ever since.

Sometimes he would just hope that the goddess would be merciful enough to simply let him die an Ajax’s death. Sometimes he would think about casting himself into the neighing sea, wishing for an end to all this misery. But he would always restrain himself whenever he thought of Penelope. He just couldn’t leave her waiting forever.

“But you already did,” sometimes he could hear the goddess’s voice answering. “You failed your comrades already. What makes you think you won’t fail your family?”

Is that really her voice? Or is it just an illusion? He could no longer tell the difference. Reality had become the nightmare he woke up to, and he couldn’t find solace in his dreams either.

It’s as if I’m dead inside…

But deep down, he knew he was dead already. Dead to the mortal world he knew of, dead to the people he loved and cared for. If anything, at least he was not physically dead yet.

But after five days of that kind of treatment…he only hoped to be long dead before then.

What are those five days for?

He had no answer. Although…some trees did appear to be missing. He’d always notice it whenever there was a tree missing. It was like an instinct, something he had trained himself when he used to garden with his father. But that memory had seemed so distant as Ithaca itself—so hard to access now. 

He had just reached the shoreline when he noticed a spot on the sea. 

Is that…a raft?

A raft in full sail, steered by a person with an oar, three large sacks beside them…

But then he saw the goddess, waving at the person on board, a pleasant smile on her face, as the raft slowly sailed away. The person on board—a man, as he saw that now, his face seemed rather familiar. It was as if…

Wait.

Is that…me?

Odysseus almost called, and stopped himself in fear of the goddess. That man didn’t seem to notice him, but instead turned towards the brightening horizon, a brave new journey ahead…

What on top of Mount Neriton is going on here?

But then he found the goddess approaching. The smile on her face had somehow turned malicious, and Odysseus wasn’t sure if he’d want to find out why. The goddess walked up to him, and gave his shoulder a squeeze.

“Now that he’s gone,” the goddess looked beyond the wine-dark sea, beyond the lands and islands that had composed his wanderings, then whispered gently to his ears. “It’s like I promised, Odysseus of Ogygia: we shall have our eternity.”

[viablemess]

Let Me Be Your- (Polites Centric Fanfic)

Before Polites’ was Odysseus’ reminder to greet the world with open arms, he was many other things to the King of Ithaca. This story explores what those things were.  Polites is my comfort character so naturally I must write about his history. Very rough draft drabble stage currently and may post it on AO3 soon, but wanted some initial feedback. Thanks!

Stranger (Chapter 1/6?)

The first time Polites met Odysseus, he did not even go by the name Polites. In fact, he remembered very little of the meeting itself. He remembered what he did not like, and how those factors were mitigated afterwards, but that meant little to him in the moment. 

All Polites remembered, really, was chaos. He did not even know what chaos as a word was, but he knew things were anything but normal. People were screaming, fleeing, and fighting–who was fighting who, the child was not even sure. He just knew to run. That was the last thing his parents had said, and so he listened. He was good at listening, good at doing what he was told, good at following orders. So, listen he did. He ran, and ran, and ran until his legs could not anymore. He ran away from the fires and the buildings, the screaming and the blood, until he reached a tiny camp surrounded by otherwise mundane plantlife. He stared, and before he could even think about his actions, he collapsed into the center of it, ignorant to the hollering questions off in the distance. 

When he woke up, it was to voices. They sounded annoyed. 

“What do we do with a child?”

“He’s the enemy, I think I know what-”

“You forgot that he’s a child, you dipshit-” 

“What’s even the difference?”

His eyes opened and he scrambled backwards, right into another body. This one was not like the others, not covered in armor and so much bigger. This boy was close to him in height and stature, and without thinking, he ran behind the other boy, grasping at his shoulders as if using him as a shield. 

“Unhand the prince-”

“No.” A commanding voice said, and he ducked down, behind the boy. The boy turned towards the new voice on instinct and without hesitation. “Odysseus, this boy is the same age as you. What would you do with him?”

The boy–Odysseus–took a deep breath. “What do you mean, father?”

“I mean would you spare him, or not? He is our enemy, and he is a child. I took you with me so you can learn more, and based on what you have learned, what would you do with him?” 

He let go of Odysseus as if burned, and ran backwards behind a nearby tree, but it felt as if there were soldiers everywhere now–all around him, limping and moaning back towards camp in a cacophony of reunification. He grabbed onto the bark of the tree with trembling fingers. 

“He hasn’t done anything wrong,” Odysseus said, looking between his father and him. “Right?”

He shook his head. How could he have done something wrong if his family was attacked for no reason? Or at least no reason that he could remember. He just remembered being told to run. “I–I have not.” 

“They all say that, kid,” said a voice from afar. The man told them to be silent. 

“I don’t even know what I could have done wrong,” he said, a tremble beginning in his voice. No, no–his parents told him to be strong, even in the face of powerful people, and a prince certainly was powerful, so if he wasn’t–then–then-

“He should be spared then,” said Odysseus, as if it was the simplest thing in the world. 

Odysseus’ father nodded. “Very well. I will respect your decision, Odysseus.” 

He said nothing. He simply held onto the tree, even as Odysseus approached him and reached out a hand. “Hi, I’m Ody. I can take you, if you want.” Not take care of you, but take you. He frowned. 

“What does that mean?”

That appeared to bring Odysseus up short. “I mean, like a slave. I can take you, so you’re with someone your own age and not with who knows who. I will make sure you’re looked after and stuff.” Really, what more could he hope for? He still had his mother’s blood on him, Gods knew everything would come crashing down eventually. 

“Um,” He reached out and shook Odysseus’ hand. “Very well. Thank…” he did not know if he should look at the king or the Prince Odysseus. He tried to stand up straighter. “Thank you.” 

“What will you call him?” The man asked. 

Odysseus frowned. “What’s your-”

“No,” the man interjected. “You name him, Odysseus.” 

He stared and waited. Odysseus looked deep in contemplation. “You said that slaves are like how I learn to treat animals and tools, right? And that without animals and tools and goods a city isn’t worth much?”

A slightly exasperated sigh followed. “Not in those words, but perhaps.” 

“So… I should treat him like I treat any citizen. Any member of the polis. What do you think of Polites?”

He stared. “I’m sorry?”

“The name. Polites. What do you think?”

It wasn’t his, but it was a name–it was a sign they would keep him alive. “I like it,” he said, sounding the name on his tongue. 

“Good!” Odysseus beamed and clapped him on the shoulder. “Well then, Polites, it is good to meet you. I’m Odysseus of Ithaca.”

[leynaeithnea]

Just finished your beautiful beautiful very yummy and very angsty analysis of love in paradise ( maybe I shed a little tear here and there, maybe I didn't, you can't know that ) so I thought this would be right moment to leave you an ask for a gods game analysis maybe?? *stares at you with big brown eyes*

Last one of this saga!!!! Yayyy

Praying ill remember all the musical parts ive heard about but im sure theres so much hidden i forgot/didnt hear about yet

30. God Games

We open with a choir of course, because...gods! Athena decides to do something (finially)

“Father, God King” (athena asks daddy for help SIJGSEIG)

“Rarely do I ask for favors” being the good favorite daughter

“Now, I’m knocking on your door, with hopes to save a friendship with one who’s a prisoner far from home....Odysseus” I LOVE the melody of this part somehow??? especially how the drop before “odysseus”, ALSO SHE CALLS IT A FRIENDSHIP INFRONT OF ZEUS TOO

“Divine intervention, is that what you seek?” ........yes, bruh. Zeus dont fuck this up, u are decent enough in Homers Odyssey

“To untie apprehensions that were placed on that Greek?” okay i had to google “apprehentions, and apperently it both means “arrest” and “concern/fear”...........to untie the arrest on Ody, and at the same time the concerns of Odysseus THATS GENIUS, Ive heard Homer does a lot of these double meanings of words in his Epics and IM SO HERE FOR IT, also “that Greek”, come on, dont use it as a slur >:)

“You are playing with thunder for a man full of shame”..................NOW WHO PUT THIS SHAME ON HIM YOU MF, YOU WHAT KIND OF SICK GAME IS THIS-

“But if he’s worth the risk of going under, why not make it a game?” Lukes vocal performance in this part is something else, like dude??? hello? youre a tenor SIEJGSEIGJ, its good, also WDYM GOING UNDER??? HUH??? ....yeah of course you make it a game, because everything is a game to you, because really, theres nothing and noone who poses a thread to you

“Convince each of them that he ought to be released, and I’ll release him” the slight echo effect in that voice.......fascinatinggg, wish i knew if the melody in this part had any meaning, gotta look it up

“Who’s them?” Athena god of wisdom asking about details before agreeing to deals *cough* Odysseus, learn from your friend

“Apollo” APPOLO MY GUY ehehehehee

“Hephaestus” okay, fair

“Aphrodite” the wWAY HE PROUNCES HER NAME?? OMG

“Ares”, yea yea imposing yada yada

“Hera” cant exclude his wife

“Or me” OR me, so its ALL of them, or him? bruh

“What do you say?” WHAT IS SHE SUPPOSED TO SAY

“Great” ehehehehe apollo <3

“Very well” just doing it because

“Eh” shes so excited

“Alright” he IS excited

“Groovy”....ok? um...imma move on

“Bring it” of course she would choose all of them over Zeus, its Zeus, he just WANTS you to loose, bc hes the god king

“Apollo!” parrot

“You all know I’m a fan of catchy songs” god of music yada yada HIS VOICE

“so with so many sirens gone, I think Ody’s in the wrong”.........there are so many reasons to dislike Odysseus and you pick the SIRENS? .......did you just join for the fun and had no real reasons or did u get dragged there or-....but its ok, your voice is amazing, also IIRC it should be the melody of suffering??? of different beast??? i forgorrrr norrrr also Lyreeee in the background! ehehehe

“They were trying to do him worse, All he did was reimburse them Now they’ll tread with caution first To live another day and sing another verse” maybe the melody was in this part. also, yeah tell him athena, what kind of argument is that, they tried to kill him he just did what he had to--------admittely he was VERY cruel about it, but athena doesnt have to mention that, and well Ody probably protected even more sailors in the future through his actions

ALSO DONT COME AT ME WITH “but all the sirens are dead” THERE ARE MORE, theyre obviously not talking about the sirens Ody killed, its about all other Sirens out at see that woudlve seen the others dying after being brutally cut down by a human, they WILL be more cautious in the future

“If that’s true, release him”, yeah u really had nothing to argue against, he just shrugs it off LMAO

“Hephaestus!” Hefefuf ehehehe ALSO JORGES DAD YAY adorable, tho when first listened i rly thought it was Jorge with voice changer again THEY SOUND SO SIMILIAR

“Trust is not given, it’s forged”...true, valid argument, Also Scylla melody??? I THink?

“Why should I give him my support? He sacrificed his own cohort”......well....um.....he didnt rly have much of a CHOICE ....but its a more valid concern, the sounds that sound like a hammers in a forge sound cool btw

“Did you forget they failed to listen?”.........yeah literally

“He was betrayed and then imprisoned” IMPRISONED AH ODY, but yeah EXACTLY, the WIND BAG, THE MUTINY AH

“But if you make the right decision He can still build a future with those who miss him” AND BUILD TRUST WITH THEM AGAIN AHHHHHHH yes. Hefefuf choose right.

“Fine, release him” good.

the music making it sound like steps in a game as you level up....fine, it sounds nice

“Aphrodite” seductive, i like it

“Your little high and mighty Odysseus” SHeS pissed, and does not like Ody you can hear the “high and mighty” in her voice :”) ouch

“Claims to love his mother But let her die of a broken heart” LIKE HE HAD A CHOICE IN THE MATTER HE TRIED TO GET HOME SHE DIDNT HAVE TO JUMP

“He was busy fighting”, yeaaah

“More like busy spiting the cyclops”.........yeah okay we can get behin that this was stupid decision but it wasnt a rational decision either he just lost his best friend, THATS LOVE TOO; GIVE HIM SOME SLACK

“Let him feel the pain that his mother felt and rot” WHY U BE SO COLD HEARTED , i love the melody/music in this tho

“Wait, please reconsider this”, athena using quick thought on a goddess, intriguing! also shes begging her :tear: aw man

“Really Athena? These old tricks?” annoyed older brother breaking into quick thought to the rescuse of his lover, makes him likeable somehow, i love the delivery of this line

“Ares!” yeah shes pissed

“What kind of sick coward Holds back his power While his friends get devoured? He didn’t even fight Scylla Didn’t even try to kill her Hides inside a wooden horse to get the job done Never handles things upfront” sorry that he didnt want to DIE dude??? i get your concern with straight forward, open combat but???? is dying on the battle field rly that much worse than wanting to come home COME ON, he wins, he is EFFECTIVE, are you jealous of his stragedies? HE GOT MENTORED BY ATHENA; OFC HE WILL CHOOSE THE SMART WAY OUT NOT THE QUICKEST-WAY-TO-DIE WAY OUT smh

“Pathetic and weak like his son” thats a low blow what is your issue with telemachus bro, the drums for ares makes sense

“Hold your tongue now His son’s my friend” awwww shes calling him a frienddddddd

“And tell your lover that a broken heart can mend” AHAHAH “tell your lover”, true true

“You want more bloodshed? Then set him free To get back to his homestead, he’ll make everybody bleed” SEUHGSOUEGESH “if you let him back he’ll kill everyone” Ares: :D thats what i like to hear, Athenas piano playing again, as she fights Ares is fun too

“Ugh, release him”, what made them change their mind? Esp Aphrodite? was it Athenas concern for Telemachus? and for Ares athenas promise of bloodshed? maybe who knows

“Hey baby”.....okay, flirty? from Hera? alright, lets interpret it as motherly flirting

“Hera” how to hit those high notes

“So many heroes So many tales Give me one good reason why yours should prevail” NOW THAT is intersting, everyone else so far gave a reason NOT to release him, but now Hera asks her to give her one reason WHY he deserves to be released “dont tell me of all the sins he didnt commit, tell me of the virtue he holds” typa thing

“He’s got the mind of a genius”, fair, but there would be others

“Try harder”, encouraging, she doesnt rly want her to loose does she? she support it, she just wants to see if Athena is worth it, i do like this characterization (as long as i ignore the disco animatic, i know its Jorges creative freedom but my brain tries to refuse ANYTHING that would be a reference to modernity, let me live in the bliss of ignorance to pretend its a movie set in ancient greece x)

“He’s pretty skilled with words”, hes a lair, i love him for it

“You can do better than that”, ...yeah

“He’s kind of funny?” running out of reasons athena, also YOU THINK HES FUNNY? LMAO ur right, the odyssey is quite the commedy for anyone but odysseus (and a few others but yk)

“Eh” doesnt sound convinced heh

“Never once has he cheated on his wife” HA HA HAHAHAHAHA HA right thing to say to Hera

[also the whole debate about “did odysseus cheat or not” no. idc what anyone says. if anyone argues he INITALLY consented to Calypso: fine, its blurry in the narrative, anyone can choose how to interpret that as they wish, but Circe was bestowed upon him by Hermes (in the myth at least, in Epic there ofc very clearly refuses her, and she accepts him (hear that calypso? HEAR THAT CALYPSO)) and Calypso, at the very least later on turned VERY unconsensual. FOR SEVEN YEARS., but the “he liked her no more” could also mean she didnt like her as a person anymore after she saved him. its not 100% clear how the relationship started out, we just know how it ends rly, but given the historic context too, it might very well be that it wouldntve been considered as cheating, even if it was consensual, would hera consider it cheating bc she does so with Zeus? maybe, idk, i think the idea of Ody being (one of) the only greek hero(es) that doesnt cheat is one i like, he gets praised enough by homer for all his skills he might as well have the skill of being true to his wife, in EPIC we know that Ody refuses her from the beginning so whatever did or did not remain unnamed in Epic, would NOT be cheating,.........and anyone who mentions Odys proof for cheating being the telegony or any other later versions where suddenly children show up, and he offs penelope for cheating and telemachus marries circe, can kindly, do some more reading into the history of the text and how later authors added their own twists, we dont know if the odyssey from homer was the most well known version, i think, but its the one we consider canon now, and i rly refuse to believe that Ody coming home only to get a new wife]

“Release him” the side glace Zeus mustve gotten LMAO

...ok angry zeus choir again, rly?

“I’ve played your game and won”, she did, fair and square

“Release him” you better

“You dare to defy me?”, what happend to your voice zeus? also....are you pissed that she called you out on cheating? bro, ur just pissed that she choose everyone else over you, grow up zeus

“To make me feel shame?” shame about loosing the game or shame for the humiliation about cheating, mhh

“No one beats me, no one wins my game!”, sounds like my 3rd brother, but hes at least cute when hes throwing a fit about a game having rules

“Thunder, bring her through the wringer Show her I’m the judgement call The one who makes her kingdom fall! ”.your voice is getting worse btw, but...are we talking about pride still? Athenas pride? or is “her” just Athena now? mhhhh, Odysseus DID call her “selfish, prideful and vain”, so maybe it does refer to her pride, she DID Have a character arc tho >:) unlike zeus, hes just an ass, also he gets a choir background for this? intersting,

NOW HE THROWS LIGHTING AT HER??? thats intense, i was gasping when i saw, night sound design

“Is she dead?”, he does sound concerned, is it bc big brother energy or bc athena was zeus favorite child? or do they know how Zeus fucked up just now? hah..ha

the flashes you can hear in the music....aaaah

NOW THIS INSTRUMETAL PART

IS SO BEAUTIFUL ITS SO GOOD THE WAY “WARRIOR OF THE MIND” AND TELEMACHUS LULLABY AND LEGENDARY BLEND TOGETHER AND BECOME “ATHENAS FINIAL STAND” (as its supposedly called) ITS SO GOOD i ah i like this part the most of the song, together with apollos voice aseghsegij Aphrodite is fine too :) and "rly athena; these old tricks"

AlSO her having a flashback to Ody giving her Telemachus to hold after his birth, PLS??? Thats so vulnerableeeeee aaaaaaaaah yeah, yea that was good

“Let him go, please, Let him go”, she reaches out to Zeus, as her light dims and she begs him to let Ody go, nothing left of the selfish and prideful goddess, she was selfless- sacrifcing herself and ler go of her pride to beg to Zeus to let him go, who stops as he grabs to throw another lighting, in shocked realization of what he has done.

The song fades out. And we are left to wonder if Athena is ded or not

now initially i rly thought Jorge killed a goddess

by now im more hopeful that she isnt dead (im hoping for that, mostly for the fun of sticking to the source material of Athenas help in the last chapter(s) of the story)

but

im still doubting a bit. the chance is there that she is, infact, dead, but i dont know how that would impact the narrative-,...i suppose we’ll see, either in the vengence saga, or at the lastest in the ithica saga x)

[thequeenofthedisneyverse]

"Thank you" - TMATGOW/Eurylares au

Eurylochus and Ares have been dating for a year straight. Things have been going...surprisingly well. Which really surprised Ares a lot. He expected something to go wrong but...nothing. Well, except his inner turmoil but that's beside the point.

Both of them just had what one would call an incredible date night. They went to a play called "The mask" which was hilarious in its own rights.

Ares has such a hearty laugh that was truly infectious. Eury wasn't one to laugh in front of people due to how "embarrassing" it is but he couldn't help it. After a minute or two he started to laugh like a hyena.

Most of the stadium found it a little annoying but Ares...Ares found it absolutely adorable. So loud and contagious it was.

After that they went to a restaurant by the bay with a very private booth. The average servings weren't very filling for Ares, but he didn't say anything.

At the booth both recounted tales from their lives. Eurylochus had more joyful ones, so Ares just let him talk.

"Ugh, one day when I was eight and Odysseus was nine, he dared me to see how many olives we can shove up our noses. Safe to say we never did that again" Eurylochus chuckled at the memory as did Ares. The large god could just imagine an eight-year-old Eury with two nostrils filled with Olives.

"You thought that was a good idea...because...?"

"Hey, in my defense I was eight! And for some reason I always liked taking challenges...and that stuck with me. So much so, that I thought I could forge my own sword...heh...there's a reason why there's a large burn on my leg now"

Forging...Ares' heart kind of squeezed at that. His brother Hephaestus does that...it's his thing, really. It kind of pained the god to remember that his relationship with his brother is forever severed because of a fling he couldn't say no to.

"Well, we live, and we learn I suppose. Bet you didn't do it again did you?" Ares tried to shove the guilt down, at least to the back of his subconscious until it came up again.

Eury lightly chuckled and winced at the memory, "Nope, in fact, I was too scared to go near fire until I was eighteen. Even now I still take extra precautions"

The small mortal caught on to the fact Ares didn't like talking about his childhood. He figured it must've been a heavy subject, so he didn't pry.

"I suppose...I have one story to make you laugh. But...don't laugh too much...please?"

Eury tilted his head in intrigue, "I'll try my hardest not to, but I'm not promising anything"

Ares sighed...and recounted the tale of his one and ONLY abduction. His story begins far from Olympus in the region of Thessaly where two giants, Ephialtes and Otus, Weaved a very sinister plan.

Both giants are the sons of Poseidon but mortal women. This, in and of itself made Eury chuckle. Are the only things Poseidon can produce are Cyclops?

Anyway, both of them were planning on kidnapping two goddesses. Ephialtes wanted Hera and Otus wanted Artemis...of all the ones they could've chosen.

The main problem they were dealing with is pretty tall and hard to climb. Both of the two-idiot cyclops gather the idea of stacking MOUNTAINS on top of each other to reach Mount Olympus.

Obviously, the Olympians weren't cool with that, and a bit of a scuffle ensues. Lots of fighting happens and when the dust settles, someone was missing.

Ares.

The god in question, sighed when he got to this part. His cheeks felt hot at the memory but continued. "They....took me..."

Eurylochus blinked twice at that...there's no way heard that right. THE god of war could so easily be....kidnapped?

"And put me in a bronze jar..."

Don't do it Eury. DON'T!

As Eury mentally processed this information, he could see Ares having a rager in a jar...he snorted at the thought but quickly covered his mouth. Be respectful, Eury, he's telling you this story in confidence!

"And from what I've been told, I was stuck in their for...13 months..." Ares gritted his teeth as he looked away. Clearly irritated and ashamed.

This new information made Eurylochus mentally do a double take. 13 MONTHS?! That's literally A YEAR! The extra month is just insult to emotional injury at this point.

Did no one care enough to notice his disappearance? His mom?! FATHER?! ATHENA?!...wow.

Eurylochus didn't quite find the story to be funny anymore. Well, it was but also a little...sad. Did gods really not care for each other like that?

"Their stepmother Eriboa contacts Hermes to..to..." Ares did NOT want the word 'save' to come out of his mouth so he settled with an alternative. "Fetch me so to speak. For some reason Artemis came along and well...got me out I guess"

Eury looked at Ares sympathetically. Yeah, Ares was sav- fetched in the end but...jeez. He didn't quite know what to say either.

"Hmm, well, at least you...got out." Quick, throw in a joke "Bet ya don't like jars anymore, do ya?"

That...made Ares smile a bit and threw an olive at Eury. Out of all the food on the table he purposefully chose an olive to throw.

The olive hit Eury's nose, and he giggled, "Hey!" In less than a second, Eury threw one back. Then Ares threw one back...now it's just a food war.

Potatoes, grapes, chicken bones, and whatever else on the table was being thrown. Happy laughter could be heard from the two of them. So sweet.

Both walked out of the restaurant with food on them, but they could care less. They were happy and that was all that matters. After that both men walked to Ithica's statue garden. It was nighttime so there were no prying eyes to gawk at them.

The stars were shining above them, twinkling about beautifully. Eurylochus and Ares were sitting on the edge of a fountain staring up at them in comfortable silence.

Ares...was nervous as a divine being could be. He wanted to hold Eury's hand, just a simple interlock of fingers. However, he didn't want to overstep...or possibly hurt Eurylochus with his strength.

The god knows he can touch things without breaking anything. He's held fragile things before but for some reason his anxiety was making him think he would crush the mortal's small hand if he gripped too hard.

So, anytime Ares moved his hand over to Eury...his anxiety would spike, and he would pull away.

Eurylochus saw this a couple of times. He wanted to hold his hand too, but he didn't want to rush the god since he seemed so hesitant. Some more silence goes by until Ares gather's confidence.

"I- I...," He sighed as he got irritated with himself. An annoyed growl escaped his throat, "Dammit, can I hold your hand?!"

The loudness of his tone made Eurylochus jump a bit. He didn't expect him to be so loud. The question however, made Eury's heart skip.

Shit...he scared him. Ares instantly felt guilty and cursed himself in his head.

"W- Well...I don't mind-"

"Wait! I'm sorry, I didn't mean to scare you I just...fuck....I'm not good with these things. Please, please don't agree because you think I'm going to hurt you if you say no. I- I want you to do it...because you want to"

There was a pause between them...and that pause made Ares' anxiety spike hire. Great! Now Ares is going to spend his immortal life alone until he dies- Oh? what's this?

Eurylochus softly took Ares' hand in his and interlocked their fingers. The size difference was laughable.

"I want to" he said softly with a very sweet smile as he looked up at Ares.

Ares...didn't quite know what to do. This wasn't the reaction he was expecting. He expected Eury to blatantly say no or slyly scoot away from him. To never want anything to do with him anymore...

Not this.

"Hey, can- can you come here?" Eurylochus asked as his right hand gestured for Ares to lean down. Ares snapped out of his self-deprecating thoughts.

"O- Oh, uh of course"

The tall god leaned down and Eurylochus cupped his cheek. Something Ares definitely didn't expect. Eury softly pulled him closer and with a deep breath, Eury kissed the tip of his nose.

....Ares. EXE. has stopped working. Literally.

His red eyes widened, and his gold heart sped up. No words could describe how happy he felt right now. But for some reason, he couldn't convey it.

This made Eury nervous. SHIT! What if he overstepped?! He didn't mean to make him uncomfortable.

"I- I'm sorry, I didn't...I should have asked-"

"What...what was that for?" The god truly couldn't comprehend why Eurylochus would do that. It felt good...really good but...why?

Shit...

"Well I just...I just wanted to...it felt right at the moment but...I should've asked...I'm sorry"

"Can...can you do it again?"

Oh? That was unexpected.

"You...you want me to...um...okay?" Eury was shocked but happy that Ares wasn't upset.

Ares leaned closer and Eurylochus left a small peck on his nose again and pulled away. Butterflies fluttered about in both of their stomachs. The bashful look on their faces made it all the better.

None of them quite knew what to say but there was no need for words to be said. Both knew how the other felt about the other quite well anyway.

How...how could someone have such feelings for someone like him? Ares was a brute, war criminal, a man who had a penchant bloodshed. A man with world's worst anger issues, a man who has no impulse control...how?

Sure, Aphrodite was with him but looking back. She was probably only with him for the thrill of infidelity and nothing else. Did she love him?

"Thank you..." Is all the eight-foot-tall god could mutter. Thank you.

Was he thanking him for the kiss? For giving him a chance? For not seeing him as a disappointment?! Ares didn't quite know the answer to that. More than likely all three.

Eurylochus softly smiled and shyly looked away. "Y- You're welcome..."

In the back of Eury's mind...he questioned why the god of war all things would have interest in him...outside of war. It was just so...ODD!

Eurylochus just saw himself as...a man. Nothing more and nothing less. A man who has an ordinary life outside of the bloodshed that happened a year ago. A man who has severe PTSD that he doesn't talk about.

He's a farmer and pottery maker who likes fishing, cooking, and smithing in his spare time. That all seems so lackluster compared to a divine being.

But here he was, asking for kisses from him. Of all things.

To be clear...If it weren't for Ares' darker skin tone, he would probably be as a red as a tomato by now. Same for Eurylochus. After that little event, Ares summoned his golden chariot and took Eury back home.

The ride home was quiet but not uncomfortable. Quite pleasant in fact. The dark red glowing horses pulled the chariot over Ithica and Eury just marveled at it.

Once there the mortal got out of the Chariot but stopped,

"Thanks for tonight...I...uh" Eury looked back at his home and back at Ares. "Do you want to stay the night? I- I have an extra room..."

In other words, PLEASE DON'T LEAVE.

Ares blinked twice as the question played itself over and over in his mind...did...did he really want him to? Did the man of his dreams and potential husband really want him to stay with him?

"Really?! I mean, I don't want to impose..."

Eury lightly chuckled at the gods bashfulness, "You're not imposing...I want you to come"

"I...okay"

-

I would like for everyone to know that I started the ship so if you make art with them can you at least credit me?

[babyrdie]

So you don't think tsoa mischaracterized Patroclus? (same anon who sent the ask about kindness)

Since I don't want to attract negative attention, I'm going to shorten the post to get less attention lol read the answer below the continue reading bar.

Oh no, don't get the wrong impression. I'm of the opinion that TSOA did mischaracterize Patroclus lol he looks like a modern character, not an Ancient Greek character. Yes, Patroclus is kind, as I made a whole post arguing for it, but he's not a modern kind like in TSOA.

He is also not an integral healer, in The Iliad he is only healing people because the usual healers are unable to do so and this is obvious in Nestor's speech (Book 11). Even if he were a healer, it has nothing to do with being a warrior, since Machaon and Polydarius are the doctors of the Achaeans and both fight. Achilles taught Patroclus to heal in mythology and well…Achilles very obviously fights. Patroclus was kind to Briseis according to what she says (Book 19), but that doesn't make him anti-slavery. He had a slave girl, Iphis (Book 9).

Other sources also point to this, just look at how Pindar (Olympic Ode) and Philostrathus (Heroica) make Patroclus' martial aspect quite clear. Incidentally, do you know the lost plays of Aeschylus that are famous for containing Patrochilles? Aristophanes in Frogs refers to Aeschylus having written Patroclus and Teucer as men with great deeds. In the Suda, a Byzantine encyclopedia, Patroclus is also considered a warrior. Plutarch also writes Patroclus in a dual way. In many other sources, such as Hesiod and Quintus, Patroclus' deeds are emphasized. Even The Iliad scholia, which highlights Patroclus' kindness several times, also highlights his martial achievements.

Patroclus being kind is a given, but that doesn't mean he was kind in the "I hate violence, I don't like fighting, I'm a feminist, I'm anti-slavery, my greatest pleasure is healing people" kind of way. That's a very modern kind of "masculine" kindness. He's kind in the sense that he's patient, empathetic, and diplomatic. That was more like the ancient kind of "masculine" kindness. (Also: "masculine" because the genre affects. In the case of Ancient Greece, the kindness of a man specifically socialized to be a warrior is not the same as that expected of a maiden, for example.)

Furthermore, it's kind of pointless to try to argue that TSOA's Patroclus is faithful to The Iliad's Patroclus when the author herself admitted that while the idea of ​​him being kind was from The Iliad, the idea of ​​him hating violence was Shakespeare's. According to her:

Q: How much of the characters’ personalities came directly from Homer’s text and how much from your imagination? A: It depends on the character. Homer was always a guide, but I also freely drew on other influences and my own imagination. Thetis, Achilles’ sea-nymph mother, is not so angry and uncompromising in the Iliad as she is in my version, but I was led there by her troubled relationship to mortals, based on her forced marriage to Peleus. Patroclus’s gentleness and kindness were drawn from hints given by Homer, but his horror of violence came from my reading of his psychological backstory, and was also partially inspired by Shakespeare’s portrait of him in Troilus and Cressida as more lover than fighter. I knew my Odysseus would be wily, of course, but I enjoyed finding new ways to set that wiliness in motion, particularly in opposition to the idealistic, earnest Patroclus.

In fact, she has even explained that directing Troilus and Cressida (the play) was what inspired her to start writing the book.

Q: When did you first have the idea to write The Song of Achilles? A: I began writing the novel the summer after I graduated from University, before starting my Master’s in Classics. I had just finished directing a production of Troilus and Cressida, which was a complete revelation for me. Up until then, I had only interacted with these stories from an academic perspective, but working with Shakespeare’s characters inspired me to approach them creatively as well. I opened my laptop and Patroclus’ voice was there. Of course, none of those initial sentences survived the editing process. From idea to final execution was ten years.

She has also made clear the two reasons for writing Patroclus this way. One reason is that she wanted to explain why Achilles loved him so much and the other is that she wanted to make him relatable.

Q: Patroclus is very elusive in The Iliad – what made you decide to make him the narrator of your book? A: It was that elusiveness which intrigued me. Achilles’ all-consuming, obliterating grief for Patroclus’ death is the linchpin of the entire Iliad, yet Patroclus spends most of the poem in the background. It seemed to me a great mystery. Who was this man who could undo Achilles? Why was he so essential and beloved? Writing the book was my way of finding an answer to that question.

The central inspiration behind the book is the terrible moment in the Iliad when Achilles hears about Patroclus’ death. His reaction is shocking in its intensity. The great half-god warrior—who carelessly defies rules, and condemns a whole army to death—comes completely unglued, desperate with grief and rage. I wanted to understand what it was about Patroclus and their relationship that could create that kind of crisis. Although Homer tells us what his characters do, he doesn’t tell us much of why they do it. Who was Achilles? And why did he love Patroclus so much? Writing the novel was my way of answering that question.

In writing this novel, I thought a lot about personal responsibility. Patroclus is not an epic person, the way Achilles is. He’s an “ordinary” man. But he has more power than he thinks, and the moments where he reaches out to others and offers what he sees as his very modest assistance have huge positive ramifications. Most of us aren’t Achilles—but we can still be Patroclus. What does it mean to try to be an ethical person in a violent world?

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with liking TSOA, but trying to argue that TSOA's Patroclus is true to the mythological character is just… what's the point? Why not appreciate TSOA as something different instead of pretending that the ancient Greeks saw Patroclus the way Madeline does? They didn't, just read the texts. Miller has openly said that the idea of ​​him not being a warrior came from Troilus and Cressida, she KNOWS he's not like that in The Iliad. So things like "well, he didn't like violence in The Iliad"… man, not even the author claimed that. It's all in your head. In trying to defend her, you're twisting her words. She also made it clear that she wanted to make Patroclus relatable, which would be difficult using the usual characterization when the book's audience is very young. She also stated more than once that she wanted to explain Achilles' love for him and probably, in her mind, a lovable person is someone with modern characteristics because she is a modern person.

There is no point in saying "well, Miller was faithfully following The Iliad and she was trying to be entirely consistent with the Homeric Patroclus" when the author has already made it clear that NO, she wasn't. She did say that The Iliad was an important source, but she made it clear that it wasn't the only one. She made it clear that the characterization of Patroclus is also influenced by Shakespeare and also, in her words, "my own imagination".

Honestly, just admit that you like Patroclus in TSOA and that's fine. You don't have to pretend he's the same way the ancient Greeks imagined him to be, you have the option to like both the mythological version and the TSOA version instead of pretending they follow the same idea.

I don't even know why people get defensive about the possibility of TSOA Patroclus not being like Myth Patroclus, that wouldn't be the first change. For example:

Menoetius was never said to be abusive. In fact, he cared about Patroclus. In the Iliad, he counsels Patroclus before he goes to war. Other sources say that Achilles promised Menoetius that he would bring Patroclus back from war.

Thetis wasn't an abusive mother, something that the author herself makes clear that she knows she wasn't (it's in one of the interview excerpts I posted here, by the way)

In Greek mythology Patroclus wasn't taught by Chiron, but by Achilles (in the Roman mythology, though, he was taught by Chiron)

Deidamia wasn't an annoying and insistent girl. She also never forced herself on Achilles. The relationship was either consensual or Achilles was the one who forced himself on her.

Iphigenia didn't die passively, she found out about the plan beforehand and was verbal about it.

Achilles didn't avoid Briseis. She was his sex slave and he used her. He had Diomede too.

Agamemnon wasn't considered superstitious, his belief in the gods was an ideal belief for a leader at the time. This, however, did not prevent him from displeasing gods, as is the case with Apollo.

Patroclus never had to convince Agamemnon not to rape Briseis. Agamemnon decided not to do so, probably because he knew that doing so would decrease his chances of making peace with Achilles.

Patroclus didn't kill Sarpedon as some sort of accident while desperately trying to defend himself, he decided to attack Sarpedon and then still wanted to dishonor his body.

Achilles didn't just kill Penthesilea and that was it. He fell in love with her in this process too.

Neoptolemus never prevented the union of Achilles and Patroclus. The burial was also never just Achilles and Patroclus, it also had Antilochus.

Neoptolemus didn't randomly decide to kill Polyxena because he thought it would be honorable, Achilles asked him to do it and then he did.

Neoptolemus didn't try to rape Hermione and was killed by Orestes for it. He was literally her husband and she was even jealous of him. Orestes killed him because Hermione was already promised to him before, but Menelaus gave her to Neoptolemus anyway.

There are so many, so many changes. Why is the idea of ​​her changing Patroclus so absurd? She has already changed other things. And you can like the changes, you just can't claim that they aren't changes, that they're part of the original material. I love Hades, but you won't find me claiming that Achilles regretted everything he did after death or that Theseus and the Minotaur became best friends in the original sources. I like that Briseis has a strong personality in TSOA, but I'm not going to pretend and act like the ancient Greeks wrote her that way.

But anyway, that's my opinion and I don't think it's going to change. I've read several arguments, but none of them seem to really make sense.

[katerinaaqu]

How would you feel about a book where there are several characters, many of whom are beloved by the audience, but the only Greek character has the as main characteristics being an abuser and being generally hated by the fandom? The exotic Greek whose function is to bring suffering to the protagonist, who will be consoled by an exemplary non-Greek? Because that is exactly what you're doing. It's truly an honor that you decided that the character who is hated by everyone is the one chosen to be blessed with being allowed to be Black while in Ancient Greece. Calypso being a goddess and being beautiful or some shit like that doesn't change how interesting it really is how the hated one is the only one acceptable to be Black. You'll probably argue about her location, which doesn't change shit because this isn't about the logic of her being Black. It's about the choice of her, the most hated, being the only Black person in the myth of the Odyssey in your interpretation. Odysseus being abused by the exotic and possessive Black woman and then being comforted by his loved and understanding white wife…is definitely a choice, especially since at least there are other varied white characters in the context while the only Black example is this one. At this point, it was better to simply keep Calypso white as well, it's not like it would be wrong since the ancient Greeks didn't imagine her as Black the way they did with characters like Memnon. Calypso wasn't portrayed as Black in antiquity, so this is purely a modern choice.

Anyway, I loooove reading fics and seeing fanarts about a Black woman being hateful!!!

I think you are being confused here, Anon. For starters who told you that Greeks were portrayed positively in media? Arguably there was from time to time a greek character in series or movies and they were portrayed as loud, rude, evil, greedy and violent. They didn't even do them the decency to show them as "exotic".

If they were "exotic" and smooth villains I would be ecstatic. In fact one of my favorite chacters in cartoon history is David Xanathos in Disney Gargoyles, a villain-antagonist, American of greek descend who is a manipulative bastard who plays others like the feedle. That version of his as a villain was amazing! And it was one of the few times that a greek villain was not portrayed as cartoonishly evil or rude or loud.

To give you an example at a personal favorite TV series of mine "Agatha Christie's Poirot" starring David Suchet, we have at least 3 greek token characters and all three are depicted negatively. In the episode "Hickory Dickory Docks" the main antagonist is the hostel owner Christina Nicoletis who is an alcoholic unpleasant woman who is also greedy and scared and involved in illegal diamond trades. The same unpleasant is her accomplish who is also, surprise surprse Greek. Even Miss Lemon, a character known for being reasonable and open-minded says "Oh that explains it" when her relative says that Nicoletis is Greek. Like yeah of course she is unpleasant! She is Greek!

In the episode "The Dump Witness" one of the main antagonists is a doctor named Jacob Tanios. For most part of the movie there is nothing pleasant about it. He is a bitter loner, rude, insensitive, acting violent and there was even a hint that he beats his children (which was never disputed in the movie). Despite the fact that he was proven not to be the murderer in the movie, he was still never potrayed as pleasant.

In the episode "Orient Express" the doctor who is also one of the murderers and arguably the most stupid fellow in the episode was Greek.

In the classic 1980s series Adventures of Sherlock Holmes in the episode "The Greek Interpreter" even if I was ecstatic to see a greek guy playing the actual greek in the series, the sister of the victim was a cold, calculating woman who sold her own brother to the guy she wanted to marry (she claims that she didn't know he was being tortured, making her dump too).

The satyric movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" is a pure satire on greeks living abroad, depicting them as loud or rude or snobbish for the sakes of the jokes. There is even a movie, which I forget, where a greek woman is seen trying to bury puppies and she is depicted almost like a witch at that point, yelling at the kid for taking the puppies. The mother of the kid even told him "do not interfere with the local customs" as if killing puppies is like something all Greeks do.

Arguably Greeks were always talked down by many parts of media books or series. There are very few examples in which Greeks when associated with others were depicted positively and even in the parts that depict them in mythological contexts they either are not portrayed according to their stories or overly exaggerated to the American ideals that had nothing to do with the actual culture. Allow me then to know exactly how it feels like.

No my dear Anon that is what you THINK I am doing.

I believe you are confusing what you wanna read with what I am writing. I am not creating my stories or characters to fill a quota or to create "representation" or anything. I am trying to portray the characters as accurately as possible to their areas of descent, their ethnicities and their stories. At the same time I look at other media portrayals and compare the possibilities and their areas of descent. I create Calypso for the sole reason I mention to my notes;

I loved her interpretation by Vanessa Williams, the area she lives in sometimes is interpreted as North Africa (most frequently Tynisia) or Malta. Looking at the geography and the area she was living I just think it fits to create the interpretation the way I did.

If I wanted to create a "token evil black" character as you now complaint I would do someone like Polyphemus. Quite frankly I could write Polyphemus as such and ancient greeks also interpreted the other antagonistic characters as the several non-greek tribes and nations they fought against during their colonies picturing them as mythical creatures who antaginize their heroes. I do not because it doesn't fit georaphically nor the interpretation fits.

Yes it is a modern interpretation to make Calypso dark-skinned (which I am actually surprised of course that all the time there is only one portion of people being constantly talked like that with it) but again it is an interpretation based on where Ogygia is. It is also a modern interpretation to make Andromeda ethnically Ethiopian compared to other figures and people are ecstatic about it and understandably so that is from that perspective

If Calypso is your most hated character then it is up to you. I am not sure if you read my stories but I do try to portray her as realistically as possible. Again if I wanted to create a token evil character I could write her like a Karen who wants nothing else but sex and abuses Odysseus. In the story she clearly has more to say than that which is what I create. She truly loves him, takes care of him and quite frankly culturally speaking she might as well asume that she is not doing something bad. Affairs men had were generally tolerated in antiquity so, culturally speaking, Odysseus sleeping with her forcefully and be ashamed of it was an exception not the rule given how many greek mythology characters had affairs. Even Menelaus produces some children with some slave women, which are mentioned in mythology. Odysseus's utter refusal seems to be one of the exceptions (thus later sources interpreting their affair as "willing")

I am not creating characters to fill a quota or to please any part of "representation". I am creating characters based on their stories and their potential ethnicities. Likewise the Lotus Eaters are also nations of Libiya or Tynisia according to interpretations. It is just that I never wrote something about them yet.

Arguably, my dear Anon, is better for you not to look at it all through the lenses of color. Just because one antagonist is dark skinned doesn't mean i see them as antagonist because they have dark skin. She just happens to be an antagonist that fits the interpretation of having dark skin that can be backed by the data and location.

I have said none of what you wrire. If you want to interpret my stories as such is up to you. I have said none of that though. Again if I wanted to create a token evil character I would have. If you want to interpret my stories through the lenses of color is up to you.

I do not create the stories to pass the message of "white vs black". You can imagine Calypso blonde with blue eyes for all I care. It is the same. Her skintone was brought up in my stories solely for interpretation purposes. Change it and you still have the story.

So I am sorry, Anon, my stories are not for the reasons you wanna read. If such thing makes you feel this way honestly I am sorry but that is not the purpose of my writing at all.

Calypso is not that much different than other goddesses like Aphrodite for instance who keeps Adonis in a box so no one will steal him from her or Eos who wants her man to remain immortal even if he was growing old by every day, or Selene who made her beloved sleep for all eternity solely so that she wouldn't say goodbye. Gods and goddesses often act selfishly in mythology because of their power and long life.

If this offends you I am sorry but my purpose is not to create token characters is to interpret the myths according to the locations they take place, the character's bloodline and their descent.

I have also loved the modern interpretation of Andromeda being depicted as ethnically Ethiopian as opposed to her classical appearance but that doesn't matter to you guys. I suspect at this point "damned if you do damned if you don't". Anyways like I said I interpret the characters. I do not randomly race-swap any character from any side. I interpret their descent or locations and see what interpretation fits and what doesn't

Quite frankly my stories with Calypso are my favorites because I think Calypso has a very complicated psyche that we need to analyze and think about. It is exactly because she is hated by a large number of people that makes me want to explore her similarly to how I am fascinated by figures like Agamemnon and Clytemnestra. What makes them tick? What drives their motivations? That is my main purpose with them.

[dootznbootz]

Which Greek mythology character would you like to see talked about more?

OHoho. you all already know this.

It's Penelope.

And I am being so fucking serious about it. I'm also sleepy and angry and mother nature is stabbing my gut so I'm putting a lot of my emotions into this ask.

BUT her fangirling, angry, bitchy rant of mine, I will save for the end. (and I'll explain it more down there) Not gonna lie, I will probably be mean. Don't take it too personally. (Some folks I know genuinely love her and have stuff for her. Y'all are fine :D )

I have many other characters I wish would be seen more, but hers rant is ooooh. it's been boiling angrily for a long time and this is the perfect ask to let loose.

Take note: This is more about characters who I feel are either underrated and/or not really given love. It's a whole other can of worms about characters who ARE given a lot of attention but are either fandomized to the point of being unrecognizable or people just...really see them wrong.

Ariadne:

A young princess who helped out Theseus to end the cycle of violence against the youth of Athens. Despite the fact that she was going against her family by helping Theseus she did. When he left her, for whatever reason, she was rescued by Dionysus. In which these two have a loving and healthy marriage. There is so much potential here and it makes me sad that she gets butchered and/or just ignored.

Danae:

She was locked up by her father because of a prophecy that happened anyway. She is now pregnant with Zeus' child. She is then locked into a chest in which she is sent floating in the sea. She washes up on Seriphos. Her son is sent on an impossible quest in order to keep her from a forced marriage. Her story is inspiring and ugh sdkf j badass mama! ;~;

Telemachus:

Got that right here :)

Sthenelus:

Fucking love this lil hotheaded cheerleader man. Go boy, go! He got yeeted by Athena from the chariot. Diomedes and him tell each other that they love each other. Tells off Agamemnon for mocking Diomedes' and his dad. He was a child soldier alongside Diomedes. I love this weird lil guy.

Hephaestus:

It makes me sad how people only see him as the "cuck" of Aphrodite and Ares. (no hate to them. do not hate either of them) He's badass in his own right! He does that bigass fire in the Iliad! And one of my favorite scenes in that epic, is him welcoming Thetis! I think he's neat :D

Hebe:

Ganymede isn't the only cupbearer on Olympus you know.

Menelaus:

I love me a goofy wifeman...But if that's all you see him as, I'm sad. What about the sealy man? (aka him wrestling a god for a while and making him tell him answers) The exiled prince? The younger brother? The angry charioteer who yelled at Antilochus? The man who interfered with his brother's letter to his wife to warn to not bring their daughter? Being the sweet uncle figure for Telemachus? (he and Penelope get a lot of the same treatment in a way. with the whole "just the spouse" ;~; )

Psyche:

I think she's pretty popular, but shout out to her anyway :D Because I love her story a lot.

And last but absolutely not least,

Penelope

Heads up once more, but I'm going to be so fucking mean right now. I'm very tired and runnin on 4 hours of sleep and my tummy hurts. This is all over the place and I'm sad.

I think some of you treat the fact that Odysseus is (rightfully) obsessed with her and adores her as if that's HER personality trait... as while it's adorable to see him simping over her as he does, she's not just there for him (and me) to simp for. In the same vein, I think some of y'all only see her for her love of Odysseus and nothing more. Some folks don't see her as anything more than what she is for Odysseus.

AS IF HER HUSBAND ISN'T JUST AS INTERTWINED WITH HER AS SHE IS WITH HIM!

And yet, there is so much stuff with him about the other people in his life. The other Achaeans, Polites and Eurylochus, Athena, etc. You know Penelope has people in her life other than her husband and her son, right?

Even stuff that's just her, it's usually her weaving the shroud...That still ties back to Odysseus. If you wanna have her weave, maybe have her weave something happily. Maybe her chatting with Anticlea or Athena while she does! Or Helen! or her sister!

There's the saying of "the characters respect women but the author does not" and I'm noticing that a LOT in this fandom. I don't think it's intentional, but it's very telling with what people prioritize in their creations how they feel. (and no, I'm not talking about Homer. He wrote incredible women.)

I'm not saying you're not allowed to have favorites. But even if Odysseus IS your favorite, if you have Penelope so one note or with such weak characterization while having so much for Odysseus, FOR THE MEN WHO HE IS NEAR... It's just really telling.

I've even seen some shit with "Well, there's not much to do with her." as if y'all don't make OCs with less. I've seen people give Astyanax, an AU baby, more characterization than her. (Have him alive in your AUs but if you give him more character than Peenlope, I am side-eying you so hard.)

It genuinely pisses me off how overlooked she is. I hate how her tags are basically empty (honestly? I might start tagging my silliness for her correctly because it has so lil.)

Hey, why do followers of the other tags show up but not for #penelope of ithaca? It's clearly because she has SO many followers/fans that she broke tumblr! Especially with the fact that you can scroll all the way to the bottom pretty quickly! /sarcasm

(btw, before you say something, I know there's no consistent tag for Penelope. I follow many of them. #penelope odyssey is kind of the best bet I believe. #penelope of sparta is mostly about that new show that's coming out and hyping about it. still not about HER. #penelope mostly has some bridgerton character. so yeah. Not much on tumblr)

(shoutout to the artists who got their art on front of the tag! That's exciting! I'm being a mean bitch right now but that's fun and exciting!)

I hate how people see her as so one-note. I hate how she's often just "Odysseus' wife". MOST CONTENT OF HER IS HIM SIMPING OVER HER. (that's something I'm guilty of too! I plan to fix that soon. I have so many wips and so lil time and too high of personal standards because since she has so little content of her, I WILL make it good. I'll TRY to make it good.)

EVEN HEADCANONS! SO MUCH OF FANDOM STILL ONLY HAS HEADCANONS THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ODYSSEUS OR TELEMACHUS. GIVE ME SOMETHING ABOUT HER CHILDHOOD. GIVE ME LIL QUIRKS SHE HAS. What does she struggle with? What's her favorite color? Does she like dancing? ANYTHING.

Feelings about how fandom sees her are also summed up by this and this. (Edit: This one too. She's not even dead in the Odyssey but people act like she doesn't exist until Odysseus is there.)

...Do you see my problem? Just one of my problems?

So many people genuinely read the Odyssey and just see her as the "crying wife". People diminish her character and her intelligence all the fucking time. You wanna know something I've noticed? PEOPLE ONLY TALK ABOUT HER INTELLIGENCE WHEN ODYSSEUS IS THERE. Like with how she tricks him and how she tricks the suitors. Nobody talks about the moment when Athena appears as her sister in her dream and she is immediately like "hey, if you're some god, is my husband still alive?" she clocks her as Athena RIGHT AWAY.

People constantly forget her violent thoughts against the suitors! Or when she sasses Telemachus and Euryclea. When she scolds and threatens the maids. (she's not always nice y'all!) Do you really think Odysseus would be obsessed with someone who isn't on his level?

We all know that he loves her. BUT WHY?! "Because she's smart like him." Yeah, we know. WHAT ELSE?

They are Likeminded! Thinking and acting alike! You know how fun that is?!

Homer, you absolute mad lad genius. You made her a mystery to the narrator, Odysseus, and for some reason, people see that as her just being a straight up mystery. You wrote her so wonderfully and so complex with how she is so sneaky in her own way that people are literally tricked by her as readers as well!

Or sadly, more likely, people fucking blackout when she's in the scene and there's no Odysseus. 🙄

Look, even if you have Penelope be the "braincell" who keeps her husband in line, MAKE SURE SHE'S NOT ACTING LIKE ODYSSEUS' FUCKING MOM. They're both grown ass adults for fuck's sake!

Also...please...PLEASE have her be more than a prop for the men around her. I've read some things that could literally have her be replaced by Euryclea, as Penelope is sometimes just used as a sounding board.

I'll be even more bitchier. Even in the OT3 she's commonly in. It wasn't a NOTP until I noticed most creations of that ship was just "Odysseus and this person for 6000+ words... Oh, and Penelope making an appearance in the footnotes." If it's an OT3, they all love each other right? Where's the PenDio fics/art, cowards?

I have a weird theory about how people treat her that way. (other than fandom prioritizing men)

So there's "girlbossing" and "uwu sad victim" that fandom can never seem to leave. I think People do this with Helen and Clytemnestra and that's why THEY are "blorbo-able". (not saying they shouldn't be but they definitely get more love than Penelope)

Helen, despite not always being a victim in her story, has been through so much. Kidnapped and some people blame her for it (irl and some people in canon do blame the war on her). Very easy to cling to. I cling to her too! (she's on the "UwU always victim. tragic blorbo" end)

Clytemnestra, is a victim in the sense that she's a grieving and angry mother and wife. And so she killed Agamemnon. Her violence and anger is seen as "girlboss" despite all the horrible stuff she also did to her children. (she's more on the "girlboss" end)

Penelope, is not a victim to the same degree as Helen nor does she murder anyone (how could she? it was 108 people against her and the Odyssey shows that the suitors' parents were enraged. Even Odysseus was skeptical he could beat them.)

She's not on either end of the "scales" for people to find her "blorbo-able". She doesn't murder her husband or the suitors by herself or is a victim to them in the same way Helen is.

And that's just for people who know her husband didn't cheat. I think with people who think Odysseus did cheat, they hate her because "she let it slide". That she's "weakwilled" for knowing her husband went through literal hell and wanting him to be happy and safe.

Idk, It's a little lonely being one of the few "Penelope crazy" blogs.

I sometimes wonder if people kind of come to my blog in a "Hey, can you love her for me? Can you think about her for us?" as I have seen very little on her childhood for example. It's STILL mostly in relation to others.

It's not even the "sharing ideas" that bugs me. it's the feeling of people not wanting to come up with headcanons/ideas for her OUTSIDE of canon.

"She was in Helen's shadow." Okay, well, how did she feel about it? What did she do about it? Did she hide away? Did she internalize that? Did she find that freeing? To not be the center of attention?

Stuff like that. Dive DEEPER. PLEASE

It makes me happy that people love my Penelope as I love her too, clearly. But I really fucking hope you love the CANON Penelope too. If you think I made Penelope "better" or anything like that, then leave. She's already fantastic on her own.

I want to talk about her more. I want her to be seen more.

[nerdygirl2023]

odypen blurb

Penelope caught herself looking at her reflection once again. She couldnt help it. Her flaws jumped out at her. Her hand subconsciously pushed on her stomach. Jeez, I know I recently birth, but when did I get so-

“There’s my beautiful wife.” Odysseus walked in. He instinctively looked for their son. He found baby Telemachus already asleep in his crib. He smiled warmly. Penelope looked everywhere but the mirror, trying to recover her composure. She swallowed hard.

Odysseus sighed. “Im going to have a serious problem when that boy grows up and has me wrapped around his finger,” he chuckled. He came up behind his love and wrapped his arms around her. “Dearest, whats wrong?”

“N-nothing. Im fine. We should get to bed-“ Penelope lied. She tried to turn and walk towards their bed, but Odysseus spun her around, so they were facing each other.

Penelope, much like her husband, was a good liar. Not many people knew that, but Odysseus did. He knew when she wasn’t really trying to hide something. He searched her eyes, hoping to find what ever was bothering her. They were always so in sync, and it pained him not knowing what was on her mind.

“Pen… you know you know you can tell me anything.” Odysseus caressed her cheek. Penelope relished in his touch. Her eyes fluttered closed. Her lip quivered, and she pulled away, furiously wiping away her tears.

“Im fine. Im fine. Im stronger than this.” She blinked rapidly and turned away. “Im a spartan, for Zeus sake-“ she covered her face with her hands. “- get it together.” She mumbled to herself. Her emotions have been driving her mad these past few weeks.

Odysseus could see the layers of emotions peel away. He approached her gently. “No one is doubting your strength, my queen.” He spoke softly. “You are a new mother, and in many ways, more vulnerable; but that does not make you weak.” He pulled her hands away from her face and locked their fingers together.

Penelope blinked back emotions and tears. She let out a dry laugh, “you always know exactly what I need to hear.” She collapsed into his embrace and cried freely. Almost like she was waiting for permission, Penelope lets all her insecurities out.

The couple laid down, and cuddled late into the night. After a lot of comfort and hugs, Penelope dozed off. And in the morning, maybe not all her insecurities magically melted away, but she did feel better.

[animegirlsakurablr]

Shenanigans in the Grand Order, part 728

*deep sigh* And what do you mean by that, sir?

Oy vey, oy vey...

So, what you said (back then) is, essentially, an oxymoron?

And your semi-amnesia is goddamn pointless!

I feel like actual!Dobrynya would get along with Odysseus.

Heh, and he gets summoned to take care of a kid. And not just any kid... It's Koyanskaya.

And the (what feels like a last second) reason why she looks like Tamamo: Amaterasu came by (Why? Who tf knows) and granted her a life.

Anyway, this is now done. It's... not as awful as many make it out to be, but this chapter definitely has problems. It feels just so rushed. I know that story chapters and event stories usually have months to "wait in the oven", so to speak, but Tunguska felt like it only had weeks to prepare.

I'm not sure if it's because:

1) Sakurai also wrote the Christmas event and also this one, therefore writing two things back-to-back

2) Covid still causing some amount of trouble (remember, this originally came out two years ago on JP)

3) Sakurai was beginning to write Fate: Lost Einherjar and possibly being roped to be one of the writers for Samurai Remnant, and also possibly beginning to write the story for Summer 7

4) Some sort of combination to the above or some other reason

Like. I'm way more curious to what went on behind the scenes for Tunguska than I am for any of the other story chapters. Give me the goddamn tea.

Any positives? Beyond that it does end (albeit not in a satisfying way), Taigong Wang's nice, and the soundtrack introduced here is good too. And that's kinda it. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

And besides how rushed it feels, where do I begin with the negatives? The way Ibuki is given semi-amnesia, but the only characterization is "the party girl who is also the brute"? The two mounts who add nothing to the story? Why are there two halves of Koyanskaya now running around in Chaldea? Several characters repeating themselves ad nauseum- scratch that, that's sadly a Sakurai writing tick.

And oh man, Dobrynya and how Koyan came to be. I absolutely despise FGO's take on Dobrynya. Not only because it's yet another case of "it's this person, but it's actually that person!" (this case being the wife Natasha), but her design holds nothing to either of them - and what I mean by that is that her design is almost literally a recolor of her illustrator's FF14 OC. I am not kidding with that. And while that isn't particularly new, Raita did that before with Raikou. But here's the thing, Raikou - even with her "I can't take this character seriously because of her assets" design, she still fits in with where she came from in a more fantasy way. Dobrynya doesn't. And don't get me started with her coloration (oh yes, I want to be snow-blinded by a character's art /s).

And Koyanskaya's backstory... On one hand, being the embodiment of many animal souls because of a natural event (the Tunguska explosion) is a really interesting concept for a Servant, and I kinda want to see other kinds of concepts in the future. On the other hand, how it connects to her love/hate relationship with humanity is a load of crap. "Oh, the animals mistook the sound of the explosion for gunfire-" let me tell you how bullshit that sounds. Animals can be damn intelligent. They know what humans are. Several of them know in what way we do. They also can tell before any of us know when something is wrong, whether it be reacting to something that we don't see or when something like a volcano is going to go off. I don't know if the whole "animals mistook the explosion for gunfire" is something Sakurai herself wrote, or is something that Nasu wrote who just passed it onto her, but it really is just a bullshit reasoning for why Koyanskaya hates humanity. You could've made her the embodiment of something that humanity actually was responsible for, like Chernobyl for example. Just. Why.

I plan to get through Traum later this year, and then after that I'll be waiting for... LB7... Yaaaaaaaaaaaaay...

SQ used: 0

Revival stones: 0 (I wish to bonk the devs for not allowing the players to use the stones for main interludes with a bat)

[smilesrobotlover]

So final thoughts on the Odyssey. I weirdly enjoyed it wayyyyy more than I thought I would. I NEVER get emotional over reading but I almost cried like, 3 times while reading it. It gets genuinely super tragic. Luckily I didn’t cry otherwise my co-counselors and campers would’ve been weirded out lol. But yeah I greatly enjoyed this story. I didn’t think I’d love Odysseus as much as I did but I adore him! I remember him being an annoying prick but he turned out to be a genuine guy who sacrificed so much to get home and suffered for so many years. And seeing Ithaca suffer while he was gone was also sad.

Like, imagine being Telemachus, growing up with rude men harassing your mother, eating your father’s property and being cruel, and all he can do is sit and let it happen? And then he hears stories about his father who is bold, strong, and powerful, and he feels like he is nothing and can’t do anything to help his mother. And his mother spends her days crying over his father. Like dang, poor Telemachus

But let’s not forget Penelope. That woman cried for her husband and probably barely had any time to mourn for him. She’s pressured to marry the douchebags disrespecting her and deals with maids betraying her and making things worse. Her mother in law dies and everything goes wrong, like that poor lady.

And of course… freaking Odysseus…. That man… Homer loved to torture him. He went through so much crap for 20 years, but it’s satisfying to see it all turn out good in the end for him. He’s able to be with his wife and son finally.

I absolutely adore how similar Penelope and Odysseus are. Both are very cunning and lie to people a lot. But they never lie to each other. The scene where they’re just talking to each other and sharing their time away from each other was SO tender. I said this before but the fact that one little scene of the two together had more chemistry than a flipping chemistry class is insane. They’re in love, so much in love. And augh…. They were so faithful to each other. I also love how they cried so many tears for each other. GOSH I love them sm.

And Telemachus is my son. I’m sorry he is. I’ve adopted him. He’s so cute

But yeah, I wanna read the Iliad now! Wanna see more details. I found it interesting that a lot of people, including Penelope seemed to hate Helen, who I believe was kidnapped by the Trojans which started the war. Pretty crazy, but I’ll find out more details about it.